Gaza Aid Convoy

[darkeyes]

I've waited for someone to post something about Israel's raid on the aid convoy and so many deaths. It is sad that no one has felt fit to say a dickie bird. It is in all our interests to show concern and argue against oppression and discrimination from wherever it comes.. I make no comment at this stage about my view of the truth of the matter, except to say that so far the evidence as best I can see does not back Israel's claims. I am still absorbing what I can before doing so.. most of you will know where my sympathies lie but its no use shooting from the hip which I can and do do quite often..

Gaza, whatever the truth of the matter is an absolute mess and its getting worse by the day.. the fact that Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with the American President says a lot about his mindset and his determination to keep the pressure on Gaza.

[Long Duck Dong]

mmm I read the part about how the convoy was told before they left on the voyage, NOT to try and break thru the blockade,..... instead the israels will transfer the aid supplies thru the blockade.....

it appears that somebody was hard of hearing cos what did they do ???? they tried to break thru the blockade.......

I remember hearing about collateral damage once or twice in this site...... so do we count activists on a aid convoy as collateral damage ???? or just idiots for not listening to israel in the first place and accepting the compromise of the aid transfer.......

it reminds me of the idiot pete bethune, the fool that decided to board a japanese whaling ship with a knife in international waters.....and now faces 15 years in a japanese prison...... yet the activists are saying he should be set free cos he did nothing wrong ... while he pleads quilty to 4 out of the 5 charges in a japanese court.....

while I support activists in their fight to have the right thing done.... I also state clearly, there is cosequences for actions that CAN be avoided if people used their brains......
once again we see activists thinking that they know better and now it cost lives.......

[darkeyes]

mmm I read the part about how the convoy was told before they left on the voyage, NOT to try and break thru the blockade,..... instead the israels will transfer the aid supplies thru the blockade.....

it appears that somebody was hard of hearing cos what did they do ???? they tried to break thru the blockade.......

I remember hearing about collateral damage once or twice in this site...... so do we count activists on a aid convoy as collateral damage ???? or just idiots for not listening to israel in the first place and accepting the compromise of the aid transfer.......

it reminds me of the idiot pete bethune, the fool that decided to board a japanese whaling ship with a knife in international waters.....and now faces 15 years in a japanese prison...... yet the activists are saying he should be set free cos he did nothing wrong ... while he pleads quilty to 4 out of the 5 charges in a japanese court.....

while I support activists in their fight to have the right thing done.... I also state clearly, there is cosequences for actions that CAN be avoided if people used their brains......
once again we see activists thinking that they know better and now it cost lives.......

The convoy was at sea by that time Duckie.. it wasnt said before they left.. they were told to turn back.. trust is a great thing.. the trouble with Israel is they have long since lost the trust of just about everyone...

[NotLostJustWandering]

In all honesty, I have not yet had the heart to look into the story closely enough to have a real opinion. Living in Sinai and trying to promote friendly contact between Israelis and Arabs, I am always aggrieved when things like this happen, and it seems they happen all the time. No matter what the facts of this case are, it has fanned the flames of fear and anger here, and they don't down again quickly.

[Realist]

When you're a tiny country completely surrounded by enemies, I assume that makes you nervous and prone to taking harsh, severe actions. No one on earth is in a more precarious position.

I liken it to a person being the only one of his race in the middle of another race's highly agitated and dogmatic domain. I can't fathom the pressures they're under.

On the other hand, I can't fathom why they can't all come to some kind of agreement, where everyone can go on their way peacefully. To me, it would seem much more appealing for them to resolve their differences and become productive, peaceful neighbors.

I know there's many subtleties that I'll never grasp, but it seems to make much more sense to live in peace, than with such strife.

[TwylaTwobits]

I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.

[jamieknyc]

Thequiet about it may have something to do with the fact that the so-callde 'peace activists' were caught on video attacking an unarmed boarding party....caught red-handed.

[darkeyes]

Thequiet about it may have something to do with the fact that the so-callde 'peace activists' were caught on video attacking an unarmed boarding party....caught red-handed.

What media do you have Jamie? It is anything BUT quiet outside of the US.. or is the rest of the world wrong as usual? It is always interesting video evidence because how it is presented and edited has always to be considered.

..and Twyla.. I do not condone the carrying of weapons of any sort or any kind of violence.. but it was not Israel that lost 9 people and had guns.. some sort of Israeli action was expected and the statements of those on board do not tie up with what Israel tells us.. of course many in the US prefer Israel's version of events but there are always two side to every story..

Gaza is in a desperate plight and immensely short of many things including medical supplies.. had the convoy turned back and/or waited till Israel did whatever it was going to it is extremely questionable when any supplies did get to where they were most needed.. what we have to remember is that it is a war in all but name, but it can easily be argued were that not the case that Israel committed an act of war and they have most of the weapons.. Israel has committed many acts of war against Gaza, and if we take the raid as an act of war it certainly would not be the first..

[shock3]

The 'human aid' organization sponsoring that ship is a well known Islamist front organization. That was a boatload of Radical Islamist terrorists.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e105.htm

[TwylaTwobits]

Personally, I think you are dehumanizing Israel and forgetting that it's their families and their children who were hit with rocket attacks after the Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Israel gave that piece of land up in the name of peace and were drawn more deeply into war. Yet we can sit here safe and sound at home and never hear the whine of the rockets as they are fired toward our sleeping children. We can sit here safe and sound at home and denounce an entire nation for taking steps to ensure their children can sleep safely for another night. We can sit here being all high and mighty and waving the human rights banner but only if we do not forget there are humans on both sides of that conflict with rights that need preserving.

The offer was made to transport the aid that Israel would allow, it was denied. It was denied with the clear intentions of breaking the blockade for good. That is an act of war, and the soldiers went unprepared for the attacks that the activists launched. Soldiers when faced with people stabbing and cutting them are not gonna be nice and ask them to please put their weapon down. They are going to take them down, in doing so 9 people were killed. Would you have been happier if they had just sank the boat and let the 600 people drown? You say it all the time, Fran, collateral damage. When is it not okay? When it's the activists that are hurt by their own actions?

[darkeyes]

Personally, I think you are dehumanizing Israel and forgetting that it's their families and their children who were hit with rocket attacks after the Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Israel gave that piece of land up in the name of peace and were drawn more deeply into war. Yet we can sit here safe and sound at home and never hear the whine of the rockets as they are fired toward our sleeping children. We can sit here safe and sound at home and denounce an entire nation for taking steps to ensure their children can sleep safely for another night. We can sit here being all high and mighty and waving the human rights banner but only if we do not forget there are humans on both sides of that conflict with rights that need preserving.

The offer was made to transport the aid that Israel would allow, it was denied. It was denied with the clear intentions of breaking the blockade for good. That is an act of war, and the soldiers went unprepared for the attacks that the activists launched. Soldiers when faced with people stabbing and cutting them are not gonna be nice and ask them to please put their weapon down. They are going to take them down, in doing so 9 people were killed. Would you have been happier if they had just sank the boat and let the 600 people drown? You say it all the time, Fran, collateral damage. When is it not okay? When it's the activists that are hurt by their own actions?

I am not dehumanising Israel.. successsive Israeli governments have done that.. it is they who give the orders.. they who make the decisions.

Twyla..you think I don't feel for Israeli citizens? You could not be more wrong, but for all the deaths and tragedies of Israel, those of the surrounding arab lands are many, many times greater. If there is any blame on the Israeli people it is that they have singularly failed to keep their government in check and force them to be serious about peace. But that isnt surprising given in part the paranoia of encirclement and the government propaganda machine... I want Israel and all of its children and their parents to sleep soundly in peace and prosperity, as I do for human beings around the globe.. and that includes Palestinians .. they are able to sleep far less soundly than any Israeli, but with vastly greater poverty, deprivation and misery caused by Israeli actions..

Palestinians certainly bear their share of responsibilty as do all of the various quasi military, what many would call terrorist organisations as well as their so called governing authorities.. Palestinians have failed to keep those organisations in check, but are much less able to have any control over the policy and action of those groups than Israeli's are over their government. That they could and should so more is not an issue,, they should and they must.. yet for all that, since the bulk of responsibility is that of Israel for the misery brought upon not only Palestinians but their own people.. and the international community bears its share for not putting much more pressure on both sides to reach a deal...

The Gaza Strip and the city of Gaza itself, have never been a part of Israel Twyla.. it was an occupied territory after the 1967 war, having previously been a quasi independent Palestinian territory although occupied militarily by Egypt, arguably for its protection. It has never been Israel's to give away... but the fact is that Israel has visited disproportionately by many times great misery for any attacks on its soil. No, I do not applaud Palestinian attacks on Israel and condemn them without hesitation. As a pacifist that is alien to my nature and my beliefs. We have to remember the Palestinians are a dispossessed people and desperate and so I understand that some groups and many ppeople get so desperate as to feel it necessary to attack Israel.. desperation makes people do many desperate things.

To attack a fleet of supply ships bringing aid in international waters isn't an act of war? It seems only attacks on Israel are an act of war.. and running a blockade with much needed supplies to a people in misery and deprivation is to me no act of war but an act of mercy. I repeat.. how quickly would israel get those supplies into Gaza if the convoy did as Israel demanded? Weeks at least, probably months... and there is an old saying which is often used about the British warring on natives... "guns against spears". there was no contest then, and guns against knives in this case, if knives there were and I am not going to dispute it, is equally no contest.. in this day and age with modern automatic weapons it is much less of a contest..

I repeat this also.. it is interesting is it not that most of the rest of the world have condemned Israel for its actions.. while from America, Israel's closest ally says little and doing nothing, and its people seeming to take on board the Israeli position.. I continuously question my Government Twyla.. I am damn sure I am going to at least question someone elses..

To end.. I am not anti Israeli.. and I am not pro Palestinian.. I am however anti oppression from wherever it comes and against whomsoever it is inflicted.. I am pro peace and pro human being.

[69luvr]

I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.

well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!

[Hephaestion]

Wasn't the convoy in International Waters at the time of the boarding? Why didn't the Israelis wait until they convoy was in territorial waters before acting if they had legitimate concerns? As it was, it was an illegal act.

The surrounding islamic countries now have world opinion on their side 'on humanitarian grounds'.

Yesterday Turkey was reported to have said that it would be sending an escorting military vessel with the next convoy.

In terms of strategy the Israelis scored the perfect own goal.


.

[darkeyes]

well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!

Wow.. sticks and fists against automatic weapons.. just who was boarding who's ship forcefully? Activists against commandos.. even Steven huh? As I understand it legally the crew of a ship are entitled to fight any act of piracy on the high seas.. and in international waters too.. and any act of war.. but of course we are talking Israel here.. thats all right then..
.
... and actually Turkey remains an ally of the US.. until yesterday it was also the one good friend Israel had in the Muslim world..

I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..

[Pasadenacpl2]

Yesterday Turkey was reported to have said that it would be sending an escorting military vessel with the next convoy.

This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Wow.. sticks and fists against automatic weapons.. just who was boarding who's ship forcefully? Activists against commandos.. even Steven huh? As I understand it legally the crew of a ship are entitled to fight any act of piracy on the high seas.. and in international waters too.. and any act of war.. but of course we are talking Israel here.. thats all right then..
.
... and actually Turkey remains an ally of the US.. until yesterday it was also the one good friend Israel had in the Muslim world..

I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..


Fran....those commandos were all carrying non-lethal weapons, not auto rifles. Paintball guns (higher shooting velocity than a normal paintball, but this is very common now for this sort of action). That anyone died was a result of hand to hand combat, as it is being reported. Just to keep the facts straight.

Also, for fact checking, you are correct that Gaza was taken after the 1967 war. Sucks when you pick a fight and lose. Those are the gambles of war. They gambled that throwing in their lot with Jordan and Syria and the rest would pay off. They were wrong, they lost. Jordan and Syria were strong enough to be able to pull back, Palestine was not. Oh well.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Fran....those commandos were all carrying non-lethal weapons, not auto rifles. Paintball guns (higher shooting velocity than a normal paintball, but this is very common now for this sort of action). That anyone died was a result of hand to hand combat, as it is being reported. Just to keep the facts straight.

Also, for fact checking, you are correct that Gaza was taken after the 1967 war. Sucks when you pick a fight and lose. Those are the gambles of war. They gambled that throwing in their lot with Jordan and Syria and the rest would pay off. They were wrong, they lost. Jordan and Syria were strong enough to be able to pull back, Palestine was not. Oh well.

Pasa

I accept and acknowledge my mistake Pasa.. but for all that there is no rant.. however much you may choose to see it that way.. and I accept the point about picking a fight and losing.. I know who began that war.. but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

[darkeyes]

This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

PasaPuts NATO on the spot rather, doesnt it? Nice little crisis.. the ally of one member attacking the ships of another.. you seem to forget that an attack against one member is an attack against all.. or is that only when the US is attacked?

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..

[Pasadenacpl2]

but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

Yes it does alter it. When you acquire territory through war it becomes yours. That's sorta the point. It is even more the point when you were the one attacked. If Israel had been the aggressor, then I'd almost see it to say 'they should give that back.' But they weren't.

The Palestinians lost. When you lose a war you started, you lose all claim to any ground you couldn't hold.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

[Canticle]

''When you're a tiny country completely surrounded by enemies, I assume that makes you nervous and prone to taking harsh, severe actions. No one on earth is in a more precarious position.

I liken it to a person being the only one of his race in the middle of another race's highly agitated and dogmatic domain. I can't fathom the pressures they're under.

On the other hand, I can't fathom why they can't all come to some kind of agreement, where everyone can go on their way peacefully. To me, it would seem much more appealing for them to resolve their differences and become productive, peaceful neighbors.

I know there's many subtleties that I'll never grasp, but it seems to make much more sense to live in peace, than with such strife.''

Realist, the State of Israel would not be in a precarious position, if the State of Isarael did not exist. Remember, this was an artificially created state, after the ending of WWII. Nothing, not even the genocide of 6 million people, can justify this artificial creation, which caused many thousands of Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian, to live in refugee camps, for decades, whilst the State of Israel grew rich, importing more and more Jewish migrants, none native to the area and building on land once populated by other peoples.

I remember the war in 1967. I was 13. I saw film of those refugee camps and could not fathom out why these people had to live in such conditions, in a land which had been lived in, for centuries, by their people. It was then, that I began to wonder, just how the artificial creation of a state, could ever be justified.

The precarious position was caused deliberately. The State of Israel did not evolve naturally, over the centuries.

''I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.''

Twyla, who or what gives the State of Israel the right to blockade another state. The State of Israel thinks it can do exactly what it wants and does, much like a few, much bigger states. To attack an Aid Convoy (armed or not), upon the High Seas, in international waters, is an act of war. Indeed, it is an act of blackhearted piracy.

And Twyla, Fran is correct, Gaza never belonged to Israel. In 20th century wars, conquered land, more often than not, is handed back, at the end of hostilities. Not by Israel, who still have possession of part of Jerusalem and in Jerusalem, Jewish settlers, have even built homes, thereby occupying, parts of the city which was not meant to be touched by them. Yet, the world mostly ignores this, especially the USA.

If the State one lives in, is so arrogant, as to still believe, even in a Political sense, that Jews have a God given right to land, then it must expect to be detested, by those, it's policies and actions tred upon.

''well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!''

This is a typical response. One which might as well have come from the Government of the USA itself. Israel is an artificially created state. There is nothing special about Israel and it's inhabitants, most of whom are of European Jewish heritage.

And tell me this, if it is OK for the State of Israel to have nuclear weapons and it does, why is it not OK for other countries to have them. I guess that, in the eyes of the USA, will be totally different. Why is it OK for Mossad to hunt out people and kill them, in cold blood. Oh, that will be different too. It's time that the the artificially created, State of Israel, got down from it's pedestal and realised it is not the ''chosen nation.''

''I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..''

Oh, Fran.....you have to remember......Israel is the chosen nation, God's own, even though they are descended from the same people who wandered the region millennia ago. The chosen nation were the same people as the Cannanites.....DNA has shown that. The Jews that inhabit the Holy land these days, are descended from mainly European hybrid stock, for like most other wandering people, or those that were banished to other areas, they intermarried with the local stock.

''This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

Pasa''

And if the Israeli's did that, all hell would be let loose. Turkey, is a secular state, even though the population is predominantly Muslim. Turkey is also a European country and although not part of the EU, the rest of Europe and Europe is a big place, would not take too kindly, to an act of war being committed against one of it's own.

''Puts NATO on the spot rather, doesnt it? Nice little crisis.. the ally of one member attacking the ships of another.. you seem to forget that an attack against one member is an attack against all.. or is that only when the US is attacked?

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..''

Well said, Fran.

''Yes it does alter it. When you acquire territory through war it becomes yours. That's sorta the point. It is even more the point when you were the one attacked. If Israel had been the aggressor, then I'd almost see it to say 'they should give that back.' But they weren't.

The Palestinians lost. When you lose a war you started, you lose all claim to any ground you couldn't hold.

Pasa''

Not true Pasa. Most conquered land is handed back these days. This is the
21st century, not the 18th. Israel doesn't need much of an excuse to go to war and is often the agressor.

The Palestinians didn't lose a war....they lost the ability to live freely in a land they had inhabited for generations. Immigrant Jews have no moral right to the land, now known as Israel.

Women and children and old people didn't ask to end up in refugee camps after 1948. The people of what used to get called Palestine, didn't have armies, in fact in the years leading up to the State of Israel being created...by the west......the terrorists, were the Jews in Palestine....who were wanting their own state.

I am not anti-semitic, but I am against the cause of Zion and have no time for the State of Israel, which is known for coming down hard on dissidents. Look up the story of Mordechai Vanunu, a Christian convert, who spilled the beans about the Israeli nuclear facilities.

This state was artificially created. It did not evolve. It is arrogant. It allows it's Jewish citizens to build on Arab land, it bulds a wall across it's country, that reminds people of another wall built along time ago, in Berlin. It has nuclear weapons and in some areas the precious and supposedly sacred, River Jordan, has been reduced to little more than a sewer.

What's so special about Israel, that the USA must support it, no matter what? Could it be anything to do with money and finance and all the big banks and the amount of money the rich, Jewish US financial ''aristocracy,'' is in possession of and their strong influence in the realms of power and rule?

[celticmagic]

I've waited for someone to post something about Israel's raid on the aid convoy and so many deaths. It is sad that no one has felt fit to say a dickie bird. It is in all our interests to show concern and argue against oppression and discrimination from wherever it comes.. I make no comment at this stage about my view of the truth of the matter, except to say that so far the evidence as best I can see does not back Israel's claims. I am still absorbing what I can before doing so.. most of you will know where my sympathies lie but its no use shooting from the hip which I can and do do quite often..

Gaza, whatever the truth of the matter is an absolute mess and its getting worse by the day.. the fact that Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with the American President says a lot about his mindset and his determination to keep the pressure on Gaza.

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

[Canticle]

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

It was Jesus, who is reported as saying, to turn the other cheek. In the Gospels of the New Testament, it was the Jewish hirearchy, ruled by a puppet King Herod (who was not a Jew), who rejected the words of Jesus and with the help of the Romans, put him to death.

Therefore there is no reason, religious or otherwise, why the State of Israel, should be expected to ''turn the other cheek.''

''They just want to exist, peacefully.''

I think that this point could be argued.

''The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.''

The majority of Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, will want no more than most other people in the world. Peace, happiness and long lives, in decent conditions.

There is no Holy Land, not for any particular faction. The land is holy to Christian, Muslim and Jew. The land is just that.....land. There is no chosen nation. We are not living two to three thousand years ago. The creation of the State of Israel was artificial and sent thousands into refugee camps. How can that be justified? It cannot.

And the ability and oh, so western ability, of being abled to wipe out the Palestinians, living on a small strip of land and dispossessed from ancestral homeland......Yep...that would be par for the course for the State of Israel.

If there was a God, he'd be cursing the day he told a bunch of nomadic people, that they were special. All the native people of that land, are special. Israel does not have any crown to wear, to place it above everyone else.

[Canticle]

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

Please don't insult the many members of the forces, who fought in WWII. The rest of the world was already at war and fighting hard. The USA did not enter the war until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The war had been going on since 1939.

The other allies will always be eternally grateful to the USA for finally entering the war to end tyranny, but we would have appreciated it, a hell of a lot more, if you had been with us from the beginning, even if the USA was helping, in other ways, behind the scenes.

If the USA had not entered the war, if would have lasted a lot longer, but we would have won and we would not have been speaking German, or polishing the boots of the Germans.

Your glib and insulting remark is about as silly as bringing up the war, which led to the independence of the 13 colonies. It means nothing.

Your country really does have a very dangerous crush on the state of Israel.

[Hephaestion]

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

And there was I thinking that it was only the bad countries that rewrote history to suit.

.

[tenni]

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.


Sometimes, I am convinced that there has to be strange brainwashing chemical ingredients placed in the drinking water of the USA. Then I realize that brainwashing some US people is easy to do and you don't need to drug them.

[IndyBiFun]

If I was the Isreal Prime Minister I would not want to meet with an unfriendly US president either. He treats the people that want to do us harm more warmly than our allies.

[tenni]

This is a very complex issue(s).

Does Israel have the right to protect itself from rockets fired into its territory?
Yes

Does Israel have the right to create a blockade on the sea near Gaza?
I don't know. It might be better if the UN approved of such an action to support Israel. I don't think that this has happened as it did with Iraq during the Gulf War.

Does Israel have the right to board a ship in international waters and kill people on these ships?

I do not support this. I await to read reports on exactly what happened. We may or may not get at the truth as to the events though.

I wish Canada's government did not so overtly support Israel. I would rather that we take a more neutral position. The Israel PM was in Canada "making nice" when these killing events happened.

[TwylaTwobits]

Sheesh, why is it no one can post a thing without being told they were wrong. I did not say that Israel owned the Gaza Strip, I stated they gave it up for peace and were drawn deeper into a war.

Now, again all the posturing in the world will not make anyone think anything different about a political action by a group of activists. I stand by what I said, remember there are humans on both sides with rights to defend.

And Celticmagic........please do not insult people on this board with those kind of remarks. There is not a nation in this world that is above or below any other nation.

Unless your Israel, then it appears the world can kick you and expect you to smile politely while you ask for another.

[Pasadenacpl2]

OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni

Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing. Canticle for showing that she has no understanding beyond what her tele tells her and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history. We'll just leave it at: There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.

Question of the Day for everyone: If Israel offered to have a two state peace offering, complete with rebuilding Gaza, and surrendering the West Bank, and offered to build roads and hospitals as well, and said "we want to live in peace."...why didn't the Palestinians take the deal?

When you answer that question, and the answer is dark and ugly and Pro-Palestinians won't want to actually answer it, you will understand why there is unrest in the middle east. When you further understand that Iran, and Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest don't give a rats ass about Palestine except that they can be used as a pawn, the situation becomes even more clear.

Pasa

[tenni]

OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni

Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing. Canticle for showing that she has no understanding and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history. We'll just leave it at: There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.

Pasa

Pasa
I don't think that it is appropriate for you to post that Canticle and I are bashing the US. We simply disputed a myth that some US niaive people seem to believe in. We did not introduce a braggard statement about the superiority of the US. It was one of your own people who introduced the US into this thread. Speak to them privately. Do you seriously believe in what they wrote? Correspond privately with them then and let's keep this thread on the topic...which is not about your country.

[Canticle]

''OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni''

Are you telling people what to do?????

''Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing.''

Can't you bear to have your country criticised? Is it not allowed? I criticise my country all the time. Perhaps you should look inwardly, in a different way, than Americans, usually seem to do, and do a bit of self criticism.

Tenni can bash the UK any time he likes....I won't mind. If I think he is wrong...I'll tell him and I think he will respect the response he gets. USA bashing, indeed! How childish to say that is what was done. There is something wrong..when a country and it's people can't take criticism.

''Canticle for showing that she has no understanding beyond what her tele tells her and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history.''

You're not trying to suggest, that I am some kind of Stepford wife...are you? I don't watch television (My class of person would never refer to a television as ''tele'') and one of the subjects, I am most passionate about, is history.

''We'll just leave it at:''

No, we won't.

Do not call think that you can gauge my intellect, just because you happen to be a teacher. That means s*d all, in the scheme of things. I reckon that I probably understand more than you, about many things....things you'd probably never fathom.

''There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.''

Google the British Mandate in Palestine.....I've copied and pasted some bits. Thought you'd like them. There are lots more to read.

How do you know that there was an Israel, before any other countries were formed. You are not going by the Bible, are you and by your religious belief? If you are, then that would be a very silly thing to do, because most of what has been written in the Bible.....Old Testament or New Testament, was made up, written as rules and regulations, written to inspire, written as history, written, because it was a jolly good story. It's been mistranslated, added to and mistranslated again and also altered to suit various ruling powers.

Israel....even if the Bible was right, had not existed as a country...as a civilisation for two thousand years. The creation of the State of Israel was artficial and did not take into consideration the other peoples of the area.....namely.....the Palestinians.....both Christian and Muslim. I take it that you did know, that there were Christian Palestinians. Some of them have probably been terrorists, too. Makes you think....doesn't it!!!

''Question of the Day for everyone: If Israel offered to have a two state peace offering, complete with rebuilding Gaza, and surrendering the West Bank, and offered to build roads and hospitals as well, and said "we want to live in peace."...why didn't the Palestinians take the deal?''

Maybe they just didn't trust the Israelis and maybe they didn't want this beneficial.....yet shoot 'em first, ask questions later, land, to be paying for anything so that they would then be considered owing something to Israe,l in some form.

''When you answer that question, and the answer is dark and ugly and Pro-Palestinians won't want to actually answer it, you will understand why there is unrest in the middle east. When you further understand that Iran, and Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest don't give a rats ass about Palestine except that they can be used as a pawn, the situation becomes even more clear.''

The dark and ugly Pro-Palestinian (well, this one), is actually very pretty and quite a few people think so. This dark and ugly one, is pro the freedom of all humans and doesn't think any peoples should be forced off their land and end up in refugee camps, for years, whilst the artificially created state, ships in non natives and populates the country.

You will google Mordechai Vanunu......won't you and see how he was treated? He's a Christian, like yourself....a convert.

''Pasa''

Love and kisses......C

''British Mandate for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to:navigation, search
Mandate for Palestine
الانتداب البريطاني على فلسطين
המנדט הבריטי על פלשתינה א"י
Mandate of the United Kingdom
←
1920–1948 →

→

→




Flag

The borders of the British Mandate
Capital Jerusalem
Language(s) English, Arabic, Hebrew
Political structure League of Nations Mandate
High Commissioners
- 1920–1925 Sir Herbert Louis Samuel
- 1945–1948 Sir Alan G. Cunningham
Historical era Interwar Period
- Mandate assigned 25 April 1920
- Britain officially assumes control 29 September 1923
- Transjordanian independence 25 May 1946
- Founding of Israel 14 May 1948
Currency Palestinian pound


This article deals with the Mandate instrument passed by the League of Nations granting Britain a mandate over the area presently occupied by Israel and Palestine. For a history of the period, see Mandate Palestine.
The British Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Palestine Mandate and the British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal instrument for the administration of Palestine formally approved by the League of Nations in June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917–1948. With the League of Nations' consent, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from Hijaz.[1] The preamble of the mandate declared:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[2]

The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[3]''


''What is the overview of the Mandate Period?
Geographical Distribution of the Mandate

In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." (See What was the British Mandate?.)

The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.

In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.

The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.

The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.

Breaking this down into a table:

Zone Size in Sq. Km. Percent of Total Control in 1948
Original Mandate 118,000 100% -----
Jordan 91,000 77% Jordan
Negev Desert 11,750 9.9% Israel
Israel (inhabited) 8,000 6.7% Israel
West Bank 5,700 4.8% Jordan
Golan Heights 1,176 0.99% Syria
Gaza Strip 360 0.3% Egypt

Timeline of Key Events During the British Mandate
1920 British Mandate for Palestine established by League of Nations over areas on both sides of the Jordan River
1920-21 Arab riots of 1920-1921
1922 With first White Paper, Britain arbitrarily separates area east of Jordan River from the Palestine Mandate; Jewish settlement prohibited in almost 80% of the Mandate.
1929 Arab riots; 67 Jews massacred in Hebron
1930-31 A series of British commissions and reports fail to improve relations between Jews, Arabs and the Mandate government; restrictions on Jewish immigration and settlement gradually increased
1936-39 Arab Revolt
1936-39 A series of British commissions results in the 1939 White Paper that imposes severe restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine
1939-45 Desperate situation develops for Jews in Europe swept up by Nazi extermination plan; Britain insists on immigration limits; Jewish leadership gives up on Britain and turns to illegal immigration and violent resistance
1945-46 Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry investigates plight of Jews in Displaced Persons camps in Europe while Britain still refuses to allow immigration to Palestine
1946 British Headquarters in Jerusalem's King David Hotel bombed by the Irgun
Spring 1947 Britain transfers Palestine issue to the United Nations
Nov 29, 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (Partition Plan) adopted; Arab irregular forces launch terror campaign against Jewish settlements
May 14, 1948 British Mandate ends; State of Israel proclaimed; armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria invade the following day

Sources and additional reading on this topic:
•A.J. Balfour Defense of the Palestine Mandate, 1922
•Eyeless in Zion
•Don't Confuse Me with the Facts
•Palestine, 1897-1948
•Chutzpah...Arab Style
•Foundations of the State of Israel
•A Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine 1895-1947
•A History of the Land of Israel
•Who Were the 1948 Refugees?
•Arafat's Bag of Tricks''

[Canticle]

Why Twyla?

Because we are human and humans like to discuss, argue, catch one another out, support, tear their hair out at another's viewpoint, talk, write etc etc etc......on and on it goes....and long may it do so.

[TwylaTwobits]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

[Canticle]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

It is human nature...unfortunately. Anyone can counter any argument, which they don't condone, with the words ''you're wrong,'' but to leave the argument...or discussion, at that point, would be foolish. ''you're wrong''....or ''I think you're wrong,'' followed by a ''but'' and respecting the other point of view, whilst putting over one's own is the way it should be handled.

Even when people are dying, there is always room for debate. There has to be, otherwise things never change.....for the better. There has to be discussion...there has to be talking to the other side.

The Middle East has always been a hotspot. The Romans conquered the lands in the area, but had to fight, what they called terrorism and the area where the biggest hotheads and rebellious types were found, was in Galilee. I've never believed in a gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I've always seen him as a political radical as well as a religious one.

It's been called the Holy Land.....yes...and how wrong that term is......or so I believe. The Crusades were just another bloodbath of battles to gain land in the name of the Pope, not considering the people who already lived in those lands, or those who ruled them. How many people must have been unnecessarily and cruelly slaughtered, in the name of a God and how many people must have been dispossessed.

Times may change...people don't.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.

And whether Israel should have been given their nation or not isn't an issue either. They have a nation. They have borders. And they have expanded those borders because other people decided to make war upon them, and they happened to be better at it than they were. And that was nearly 50 years ago.

And even still, they've offered to give it back. And they were spit on. They offered to build. And their schools were bombed. The Palestinians could have had peace if they wanted it. They rejected it, and now cry foul.

Want to really find who is to blame? Look to Iran, Syria and Jordan. Of all scenarios possible, there is only one that they do not win. And that is if peace breaks out.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.

And whether Israel should have been given their nation or not isn't an issue either. They have a nation. They have borders. And they have expanded those borders because other people decided to make war upon them, and they happened to be better at it than they were. And that was nearly 50 years ago.

And even still, they've offered to give it back. And they were spit on. They offered to build. And their schools were bombed. The Palestinians could have had peace if they wanted it. They rejected it, and now cry foul.

Want to really find who is to blame? Look to Iran, Syria and Jordan. Of all scenarios possible, there is only one that they do not win. And that is if peace breaks out.

Pasa


Sighs.....repetition....repetition.....repetition. ........very much like the on going hostilities in the Middle East.

Israel is not a peace making country. They always want it their way.

Whether the State of Israel should or should not exist, may not seem important to you, but it's been important to the dispossessed Palestinians, for over 60 years and it always will be........until they are treated as equals to the Israelis. After all, Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples. One no better than the other.

''Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.''

Last temple of the soul, is the human body. Land is just that.....land.

[coyotedude]

One of the things that strikes me about this incident is that the Israeli government once again is its own worst enemy. Whether or not you are a fan of Israel, the fact is that the botched takeover of the convoy has strengthened Israel's enemies, weakened its few remaining alliances, and squandered any possibility of goodwill among the international community.

The Israeli government could have made different choices. It should have recognized the sensitive political and diplomatic nuances involved in any takeover action and planned accordingly. Its military should have anticipated potential resistance aboard the ships and prepared a sound tactical plan.

Instead, Israel blundered into a hornet's nest that was largely avoidable. Whether through arrogance or incompetence, the Israeli government completely mishandled the situation.

As one who prays to see a just and lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians, I do not find any of this encouraging.

Peace

[chimpster]

What is there to say about it? the facts speak for themselves, Gaza is an appalling situation.

To begin with, the interception of the aid flotilla in international waters by armed men is technically (under maritime law) piracy. That the act was carried out by a sovereign state is wholly reprehensible and, in my opinion, indicative of the lack of respect that sovereign state has for the lives of people outside its sovereignty.

Gaza itself has become somewhat reminiscent in recent times of the Warsaw ghetto during the second world war. The irony of that should not be lost on the world when considering that Israel was created as a sovereign state to give the Jewish peoples a homeland following the atrocities perpetrated against them by nazi germany during the second world war, including appalling acts within the Warsaw ghetto itself.

To summarise, one can only hope that the average Israeli citizen is mindful of the past of his/her country and is as appalled as the rest of the world at this ongoing situation.

Having said all the above we must remember that this is a forum for bisexuality and bisexual issues, not a political forum, which is a more appropriate place for people to vent their ire on this matter.

[darkeyes]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

..whether or not we call it the Holy Land, Land of Milk and Honey or anything else.. the Crusades are what got us into this mess in the first place...

..and to say there will never be peace in the Holy Land is simply not so and it saddens me that many think that way.. my country fought a war against our southern neighbour for over 300 years and intermittently for over 300 years before that and now not only are we friends we are partners in the same state. They know what the fighing is about ok Twyla.. just as we do. There will be peace some day but it requires the will and commitment of all parties and all peoples..

[JP1986UM]

It's been called the Holy Land.....yes...and how wrong that term is......or so I believe. The Crusades were just another bloodbath of battles to gain land in the name of the Pope, not considering the people who already lived in those lands, or those who ruled them. How many people must have been unnecessarily and cruelly slaughtered, in the name of a God and how many people must have been dispossessed.

Times may change...people don't.

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

[darkeyes]

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

The middle part of this is a rather unpleasant.. no.. odious, macho and arrogant statement to make Pasa. It is almost as if you wish it to be. It certainly displays a belief in American superiority which is almost wide eyed and maniacal.. and, without recourse to nuclear weapons would only suck your country into another long drawn out guerilla war in Mexico which would cost hundreds of thousands of lives... luckily for America and the world you don't run the USA. Yes, Israel certainly could clear the Gaza strip.. that it doesnt do so is more to do with realism and world opinion than choice.. then the comparsion to the Warsaw ghetto becomes even more glaringly apparent.

..finally to say all it needs is for Palestinians leaders to say they want peace and recognise Israel so it will be is just not so... it takes two to tango.. you simply are never prepared to even consider you may have it wrong and that there is fault on both sides.. and there is much fault on both sides.. you close your eyes to the fact that Israel has proven itself a bully and will shoot, and kill whomsoever it pleases, wherever it pleases, use any weapon and any tactic to get its own way. It is a mess and mess which your country can do much to help sort out.. that it chooses not to in its position as Israel's financier and weapon supplier is a condemnation of it. All countries have a responsibilty to sort this out..the UN set up Israel as a salve for its conscience in 1948. It exists and must be allowed to continue to exist.. but it has to be reigned in from this insane bully boy policy which is a bar to peace every bit as much as any intransigence from Palestinian Authorities or even terrorists. More so.. Israel has the power... and it shows no magnanimity or compassion..

[darkeyes]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

Noow here is a tolerant and compassionate if somehwat man. If we have the right to wipe Islam of the face of the earth.. then does not Islam have the right to defend itself or to try and do the same to Christianity and western culture?

Read about the crusades darling.. I think you will find that they were about far more odious and selfish things than the defence of Europe and its culture...

[darkeyes]

And there was I thinking that it was only the bad countries that rewrote history to suit.

.

Indeed heph..and it can be argued were it not for Britain surviving.. then the eastern USA would be flying the swastika and the western USA the flag of the rising sun.. but of course thats just silly isn't it? And not pertinent..

[Canticle]

What is there to say about it? the facts speak for themselves, Gaza is an appalling situation.

To begin with, the interception of the aid flotilla in international waters by armed men is technically (under maritime law) piracy. That the act was carried out by a sovereign state is wholly reprehensible and, in my opinion, indicative of the lack of respect that sovereign state has for the lives of people outside its sovereignty.

Gaza itself has become somewhat reminiscent in recent times of the Warsaw ghetto during the second world war. The irony of that should not be lost on the world when considering that Israel was created as a sovereign state to give the Jewish peoples a homeland following the atrocities perpetrated against them by nazi germany during the second world war, including appalling acts within the Warsaw ghetto itself.

To summarise, one can only hope that the average Israeli citizen is mindful of the past of his/her country and is as appalled as the rest of the world at this ongoing situation.

Having said all the above we must remember that this is a forum for bisexuality and bisexual issues, not a political forum, which is a more appropriate place for people to vent their ire on this matter.


I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

[TwylaTwobits]

Granted it's done by an Israeli person but still pretty informative.

http://www.levitt.com/misc/israel_history.html

[Canticle]

..whether or not we call it the Holy Land, Land of Milk and Honey or anything else.. the Crusades are what got us into this mess in the first place...

..and to say there will never be peace in the Holy Land is simply not so and it saddens me that many think that way.. my country fought a war against our southern neighbour for over 300 years and intermittently for over 300 years before that and now not only are we friends we are partners in the same state. They know what the fighing is about ok Twyla.. just as we do. There will be peace some day but it requires the will and commitment of all parties and all peoples..


You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

[darkeyes]

You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

[TwylaTwobits]

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

[TwylaTwobits]

I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

[Canticle]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

The colonisation of Canada (and other places), because humans explored the world and found new lands to sail to and settle, cannot be compared with the artificial creation of the State of Israel.

We all know why this creation of the state, took place, but in this creation, the people who caused it to happen, made a very big mistake. The settlement of immigrant Jews, from many parts of the world, to this tiny state has been a very calculated one.

Other than slaves and people being sent to penal colonies, the colonisation of places such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Americas, took place over more than 60 years. A very different scenario.

And why should the Islamic forces not have moved westward and conquered land, in the same way that Christian (Western), Roman, Greek, Egyptian civilisations, conquered Europe, parts of Africa etc, etc. It is, unfortunately, what humans do.

Islam also brought great culture and learning with it, great architecture. Yes, they were pushed back and out of most of Europe, but we still have European Muslims in Turkey and eastern European countries. If you will remember, some of these European Muslims, suffered very recently, at the hands of Christians and Europe once again saw genocide happening.

''until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.''

This is an odious thing to say. I'm not sure if it smacks of religious intolerance, racism, or both. You wipe a religion, and/or it's followers from the face of the earth and that obliteration has a name. One that leaves a dark and acrid taste in the mouth, when said.

''In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.''

Israel does not own the high seas. Her secret service organisation, Mossad has been active iin too many places over the years. Israel thinks it has a God given right to do what it likes. It does not.

[Canticle]

The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

Oh, I have no argument with you here, Fran. Indeed, England was at war with herself many times before the Wars of the Roses and the Royalist/Parliament civil war. That is why medieval history is so fascinating.

[Canticle]

And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

[Canticle]

By the way, the sexual orientation of people is very important and becomes both a political and humanitarian issue, when, in some countries gay and bi people are persecuted and may even be killed. People who have done no wrong. People who just vanish from the face of the earth. It's all political. All humanirarian.

[Hephaestion]

Put a dog into a corner, deny it life's essentials and then whip it. 10 to 1 it will bite as a last resort. QED dogs bite and so are a problem to be dealt with harshly.

Territory is not the only feature in the area. It is the treatment of the peoples. On one side the technologically progressed Israelis who can hit with impunity, starve others, lower the water table, and take land by stealth, shoot people on TV (the sight of a man unsuccessfully trying to protect himself and his son is as good as the skinless Vitnamese girl after a napalm attack) . On the other side is the aimless retribution meted out by the desparate arabs.

An interesting parallel looms into view.

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.

Incidentally the USA is busy undermining itself with indiscriminate drone attacks.

There can be no escape from the reality - what the Iraelis did was idiotic and dangerous. The Turks are now labelling the boarding as equivalent to piracy.

.

[darkeyes]

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

[TwylaTwobits]

..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

I know he said it wasn't the place for a political discussion, you misunderstand my comment. It was to you regarding If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one

If the sexual orientation of a person has no bearing on opinions why even bring it up?

[darkeyes]

Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

Yes they do die every single day, Twyla.. but I only wish it was as simple as letting a political prisoner go... and Israel has its fair share of those.. including I understand, several Israeli's who were with the convoy.. whenever one side or other gets its way somehow another hoop to jump through miraculously appears...

[darkeyes]

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.



Was it Yamamoto who said after the Pearl harbour attack that he feared they have awakened a sleeping tiger? I fear in many ways you are right in this Heph, for is it not also said that a tiger is most dangerous when wounded and cornered?

.. and just what is Obama going to do if the Israeli's attack and sink a Turkish warship and maybe their merchantmen in another attempt to break the blockade? He called on NATO support for the war in Afghanistan under the attack on one is an attack on all principle. Nato responded and supported and still supports the US in that war.. can Obama now turn round and say no when Israel attacks Turkey in international waters and Turkey calls for the same support? Turkey has hitherto been Israel's friend.. burning bridges is the least of Israel's worries...

[PassionatePhD]

I abhor the ongoing violence in the Middle East -- because so many innocent persons are suffering because of the political ambitions of a few. But when we look closely, we see all sorts of realities that don't always make the papers. From the U.K., here is an article concerning ties to terrorism regarding the so-called "humanitarian" group that sent the ship in. It was a deliberate attempt at provocation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece

[darkeyes]

I abhor the ongoing violence in the Middle East -- because so many innocent persons are suffering because of the political ambitions of a few. But when we look closely, we see all sorts of realities that don't always make the papers. From the U.K., here is an article concerning ties to terrorism regarding the so-called "humanitarian" group that sent the ship in. It was a deliberate attempt at provocation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece

Now who owns the times I wonder?? Far be it for me to accuse such an illustrious publication of bias..

..as it happens I have links to terrorism.. I know, or knew and liked two people who have been a part of what we call terrorist organinisations.. one an x IRA guy who spent time in prison for his activities.. and when at uni I was friendly with another who was an active supporter of ETA.. and shock horror.. I even shared a few snogs with him... and Kate's parents knew Yasser Arafat, Hanan Ashrawi and several other Palestinian leaders which I didnt know until recently.. her dad also met Golda Meyer and as a child, in of all places, Palestine, David Ben Gurion.. now there are some names to conjure with.. now these links obviously make me a terrorist and also Kate's late parents, and maybe even Kate by association.. but that isnt the point Im trying to make..

Even if we accept the accuracy of the report.. just as the military of many nations are employed in humanitarian relief which are just that.. is it so hard to believe that groups which are claimed to be "terrorist" are so beyond redemption that they have no feeling for their own and can do the same?

[hardnbubbly]

Twyla/Others,

I do not see who these two statements can be true at the same time:
1. Israel gave up Gaza for peace
2. Israel controlled Gaza's airspace, borders, and who goes in and out.

With a territory as crowded as Gaza is. I cannot call it anything but an open air prison.

I am sorry, but nothing pisses me off more than the racist Israeli policies except for someone blatantly defending them. Stop with the victim mentality, Israel has been offered complete peace from EVERY single Arab state and they refuse to take it. They want the whole land but without the people who are living on it. How do they deal with that? they separate them out with walls and restrict their movement. These are facts on the ground. Talk to any Israeli and ask them one question, have they seen any of the Palestinian town? Most would say no. Most would have visited a settlement up the hill while haven't even seen the town below. They travel on Jewish only highways to Jerusalem and Telaviv. Those who did see how the Palestinians are fairing under Israeli occupation understand.

Anyway, do your research. Find out what is going on with an open mind.


Sheesh, why is it no one can post a thing without being told they were wrong. I did not say that Israel owned the Gaza Strip, I stated they gave it up for peace and were drawn deeper into a war.

Now, again all the posturing in the world will not make anyone think anything different about a political action by a group of activists. I stand by what I said, remember there are humans on both sides with rights to defend.

And Celticmagic........please do not insult people on this board with those kind of remarks. There is not a nation in this world that is above or below any other nation.

Unless your Israel, then it appears the world can kick you and expect you to smile politely while you ask for another.

[PassionatePhD]

Who does own the Times? I'm in the US -- and if we are wary of the Times because of its ownership, are we also wise enough to study the ownership of the other publications that may represent the other side of the political spectrum?

[TwylaTwobits]

Hardnbubbly, you have no idea whether my mind is open or not. I am not a person who just sits on the net and goes omg it's on the net, it must be true. I'm a person who loves history and I can tell you that since it's inception as a state in 1948 Israel has been assaulted by all the Middle Eastern countries that refuse to recognize Israel. Even before they were given this area for a nation, the nation of Israel has a long and varied history. When you are attacked immediately upon the declaration of being a country by all of your surrounding neighbors... yeah that's an offer of peace. The Islamic nations have made it their goal to wipe both Israel and the Jewish people off the face of this earth.

I do not condone terrorism from anyone but it's clear that Israel even fired a warning shot and the ships did not heed it. 5 out of 6 boardings went without trouble, only the last boat did the activists attack the Israelis. If that hadn't happened they would have been turned back and no one would be dead. But it's too much to ask for any semblance of intelligence from people who are blinded by their hatred and preconceived notions. So get pissed that I support Israel, get even more pissed cause I support human rights for everyone.

[darkeyes]

Who does own the Times? I'm in the US -- and if we are wary of the Times because of its ownership, are we also wise enough to study the ownership of the other publications that may represent the other side of the political spectrum?

Yes we are..

..but for your information a certain Australian/American media tycoon owns the Times...

[darkeyes]

Lets look at this democracy America insists on supporting...

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAEL-%20A%20THEOCRATIC%20RACIST%20STATE.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-racist-jewish-state-1.225919
http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-rights-group-israel-has-reached-new-heights-of-racism-1.234831
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm

Yes its a lovely place to be and to support.. any other country than Israel the US would be taking a much different moral stand...

[Canticle]

I know he said it wasn't the place for a political discussion, you misunderstand my comment. It was to you regarding If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one

If the sexual orientation of a person has no bearing on opinions why even bring it up?

Twyla, I knew exactly which piece of that post, to which you were referring. I will admit that I did not word that as well, as I could have done. I had not long been awake and was still sleepy. My apologies if my words came over badly.

What I was trying to say to Paul, was that this forum was about more than bisexuality and bisexual issues. People are more than their sexuality and in the normal scheme of things, are interested in and want to talk about many subjects, from politics to gardening

People, whatever their sexuality, are interested in discussion. Paul seems to think that the subject we are discussing, is more suitable for a political forum. I wonder does he think this about all the other subjects, that I mentioned.

I still believe that you are misunderstanding my words. Though badly phrased, that paragraph and the rest of the post, was trying to say that where discussion of different subjects is concerned, one's sexuality is of no importance and when politics and religion etc, are talked about, on this forum, the conversation will be basically the same as any other site, where such things get discussed.

I was trying to put forward (and badly), that if any of us go on to political forums, religious forums, etc, we are unaware of the sexuality of those posting...unless we ask them (which would be odd, unless the subject was about sexuality), or if another person says what their sexuality is. Therefore, because sexuality, is unimportant when discussing many subjects, such as this particular subject, the attack on the convoy......this site is most definitely a place for a serious subject to be raised.

Even on this site, nobody can be entirely sure about the sexuality of every single person, proving that our sexuality is of no importance, when discussing politics etc....unless the politics etc, has some bearing upon things which affect the LGBT community. I could keep on going around in circles....trying to explain, one badly worded paragraph and end up making the the point I was trying to make, even less understandable.

So, I shall stop and put the misunderstanding down to me being half asleep at the time of writing that post and the USA and the UK, being two peoples separated by a common language.....and sometimes a very different understanding, of the words we utter, than what those words are meant to convery.

Apologies......for the bad grammar......it's hot.....I've been to town and I am tired.

[Canticle]

Lets look at this democracy America insists on supporting...

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAEL-%20A%20THEOCRATIC%20RACIST%20STATE.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-racist-jewish-state-1.225919
http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-rights-group-israel-has-reached-new-heights-of-racism-1.234831
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm

Yes its a lovely place to be and to support.. any other country than Israel the US would be taking a much different moral stand...


Thank you for these Fran. two of them refused to load, but the second and fourth did. The fourth link, in particular, is very interesting. I fear that, if put before them, a few million people from the other side of the pond, would probably turn their heads away, rather than read, what is on that page, which the link leads to.

[darkeyes]

I accept and acknowledge my mistake Pasa.. but for all that there is no rant.. however much you may choose to see it that way.. and I accept the point about picking a fight and losing.. I know who began that war.. but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

Now was I a little previous? Since it seems Israel did carry and use automatic weapons... possibly in response to shots fired at them but possibly not... but it does seem that the hand to hand fighting claim may have been exaggerated... I await with interest what is yet to be revealed..

[darkeyes]

Thank you for these Fran. two of them refused to load, but the second and fourth did. The fourth link, in particular, is very interesting. I fear that, if put before them, a few million people from the other side of the pond, would probably turn their heads away, rather than read, what is on that page, which the link leads to.

Try them later Canticle me luffly.. in the meantime try this one about kids educational books in Israel... its a bit old, but not much has changed..

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

[69luvr]

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

You stated it very well and I quite agree. If she can not acknowledge that TURKEY set this up, she is just plain kidding herself because of her ideology. She is blinded to reality because of her own hate.

[69luvr]

Now was I a little previous? Since it seems Israel did carry and use automatic weapons... possibly in response to shots fired at them but possibly not... but it does seem that the hand to hand fighting claim may have been exaggerated... I await with interest what is yet to be revealed..

seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

[darkeyes]

seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

Who was it lost lives in an this of piracy? Who is costing lives in an illegal blockade? If, just as an example, North Korean commandos tried the same thing in similar circumstances by boarding an American ship you would condemn the ships crew then as you condemn the crew of the relief ship now.. and you would applaud North Korea for its bravado in stopping the convoy???

..and never lecture me about disregard of human life, Sunny Jim.. it isnt me that supports a racist state which disregards just about any international convention it chooses and slaughters human beings with impunity.. yes Israelis are human.. so are Palestinians..

[Pasadenacpl2]

Yes the "peace" activists were the ones dying. They decided to attack the IDF members, often before they had even detached from the rope. You should be happy only 9 died.

Since Israel controls the border Gaza, they can blockade it. Legally. When Gaza no longer has weapons to fire at Israel, and when Syria, Jordan, and Iran no longer are supplying them with RPGs and automatic weapons, the blockade will end. And, since they can't have weapons shipped in with "relief supplies"...

The flotilla was warned. Repeatedly. They were also given the opportunity to have the "relief supplies" delivered in (after a thorough inspection, of course). The flotilla refused.

The rest of your post was hard to tell who you were accusing of what, so..*shrug*

Pasa

[jamieknyc]

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.

[Gina7777]

But ... the fact remains this incident took place in international, not Israeli, waters. So the Israelis had no right to do what they did.

And surely it makes sense that the Israelis couldn't be trusted to pass supplies on to Gaza when they are clearly hostile?

[Canticle]

You stated it very well and I quite agree. If she can not acknowledge that TURKEY set this up, she is just plain kidding herself because of her ideology. She is blinded to reality because of her own hate.

To which ''she,'' are you referring.......Fran, or myself? And pray tell me......who is it, that is full of hate and therefore, blinded to reality. You really should be more specific, when addressing such issues.

I cannot imagine that Fran would hate anyone....anyone at all, in the true sense of the word, for she will understand that hate is a negative emotion, and hurts the ''hater,'' far more than the ''hated.''

However, we can hate, loathe and despise the things that people, organisations, governments, dictators etc, etc, etc....do, initiate, or take part in.

My feelings about ''hating,'' would be exactly the same.

I have never before, heard of Turkey having bad words or bads relations with Israel. Indeed, Turkey, as a secular state (even if the majority of the population is Muslim), is described, as one of Israel's few friends (depending upon how deep that friendship goes), in that part of the world.

Please remember that Turkey is a European country, desperately wishing to join the EU (foolish people), and I cannot see that the country would jeopardise it's chance, of joining the EU, by becoming involved in actions, likely to cause problems between Israel and itself.

I really do have this strongly held view, that the same could not be said, about the government of Israel. Israel believes it has the God given right, to do exactly as it pleases.

So.......who is the 'she'.....and who does the 'she,' have hatred for and what is this ''ideology,'' of the 'she,'' of which you speak. Your post didn't really expand upon anything......so unless you can explain what you mean, it sort of counts for nought.

[Canticle]

seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

Why on earth do you bring the USA into it? What does it matter which country is or is not an ally of the USA. Is there something so very special about the USA, that all countries should be it's ally and think well of it's policies and actions. I think not.

Israeli forces will gun down innocent civilians, including children and think that they have the right to, merely because they are Israel. The inhabitants of the artificially created Israeli state, are not part of the indigenous population. They have been gradually shipped in, over the years.

By the way.......if the people on board that boat....were scared to hell.....just what the Israeli forces might do to them, I can fully understand them arming themselves....in whatever manner.

As for commandos sliding down ropes and being fully armed...or whatever.....when this happens...do not the commandos....of any country....have guns loaded and ready......and are they not trained to be able to swing those weapons into a user mode, as soon as their feet touch the ground, or whatever surface, they are landing upon???????????

[Canticle]

Who was it lost lives in an this of piracy? Who is costing lives in an illegal blockade? If, just as an example, North Korean commandos tried the same thing in similar circumstances by boarding an American ship you would condemn the ships crew then as you condemn the crew of the relief ship now.. and you would applaud North Korea for its bravado in stopping the convoy???

..and never lecture me about disregard of human life, Sunny Jim.. it isnt me that supports a racist state which disregards just about any international convention it chooses and slaughters human beings with impunity.. yes Israelis are human.. so are Palestinians..

Well said, Fran.

[Canticle]

Yes the "peace" activists were the ones dying. They decided to attack the IDF members, often before they had even detached from the rope. You should be happy only 9 died.

Since Israel controls the border Gaza, they can blockade it. Legally. When Gaza no longer has weapons to fire at Israel, and when Syria, Jordan, and Iran no longer are supplying them with RPGs and automatic weapons, the blockade will end. And, since they can't have weapons shipped in with "relief supplies"...

The flotilla was warned. Repeatedly. They were also given the opportunity to have the "relief supplies" delivered in (after a thorough inspection, of course). The flotilla refused.

The rest of your post was hard to tell who you were accusing of what, so..*shrug*

Pasa


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........piffle!!!

[Canticle]

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.


You're rather obscure in your postings.....aren't you!!

[Canticle]

But ... the fact remains this incident took place in international, not Israeli, waters. So the Israelis had no right to do what they did.

And surely it makes sense that the Israelis couldn't be trusted to pass supplies on to Gaza when they are clearly hostile?


Well said, Gina. I guess things which are obvious, to the rest of the world, just elude the USA.

[Hephaestion]

1) The term Palestinian in 1918 it simply means an inhabitant of what was termed at the time 'Palestine', Some of the inhabitants of The Palestine were of the Jewish faith and some were not. The British did not move Arab peoples around as suggested. In fact, the Jewish population was the one that was growing incessantly in the region through immigration from the end of WWI (not WWII).


As The Palestine began to be subdivided, the Zionists continued to make themselves felt in the intention to take territory exclusively for Jews. secular unrest occurred. The British resisted the armed Zionist fighters (They would have been termed terrorists then) in their attempt to take over land to form an exclusive Jewish State. Britain aquiesced to the idea of a separate Jewish state

"... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country...."

Meanwhile, Jewish immigration pressure continued and holding areas in other lands were used to delay the effect. Eventually Israel was created. It continues to exert a Jewish demand for more land through its selective population pressure.


2) To attach responsibility to an entire nation for the activities of a band of its citizens invovled in personal initiative is just daft. So Turkey as a nation is not responsible for anything that happened.

Turkey may well assume responsibility in any subsequent venture but that is another story and it will not change anything that has happened so far - Israel should not have boarded the boats in international waters.

Who boarded the boats? Israeli Soldiers boarded the boats. Now we all know that soldiers, conscripts or otherwise, join the ARMED forces just to tour the world and have exciting holidays. There was absolutley no expectation that these soldiers who were members of the ARMED forces were armed in any way. So defending oneself against such soldiers was entirely unsporting of the people in the boats. Then magically these unarmed soldiers produced guns and shot people dead.


.

[Canticle]

1) The term Palestinian in 1918 it simply means an inhabitant of what was termed at the time 'Palestine', Some of the inhabitants of The Palestine were of the Jewish faith and some were not. The British did not move Arab peoples around as suggested. In fact, the Jewish population was the one that was growing incessantly in the region through immigration from the end of WWI (not WWII).


As The Palestine began to be subdivided, the Zionists continued to make themselves felt in the intention to take territory exclusively for Jews. secular unrest occurred. The British resisted the armed Zionist fighters (They would have been termed terrorists then) in their attempt to take over land to form an exclusive Jewish State. Britain aquiesced to the idea of a separate Jewish state

"... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country...."

Meanwhile, Jewish immigration pressure continued and holding areas in other lands were used to delay the effect. Eventually Israel was created. It continues to exert a Jewish demand for more land through its selective population pressure.


2) To attach responsibility to an entire nation for the activities of a band of its citizens invovled in personal initiative is just daft. So Turkey as a nation is not responsible for anything that happened.

Turkey may well assume responsibility in any subsequent venture but that is another story and it will not change anything that has happened so far - Israel should not have boarded the boats in international waters.

Who boarded the boats? Israeli Soldiers boarded the boats. Now we all know that soldiers, conscripts or otherwise, join the ARMED forces just to tour the world and have exciting holidays. There was absolutley no expectation that these soldiers who were members of the ARMED forces were armed in any way. So defending oneself against such soldiers was entirely unsporting of the people in the boats. Then magically these unarmed soldiers produced guns and shot people dead.


.


Thank you Heph

[darkeyes]

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.

This is absolute rubbish Jamie.. a Palestinian meant a native of Palestine.... if u want a shitty population movement to to swamp another.. any Jew anywhere may become an Israeli citizen and qualify for residency.. no one else has anything remotely like that right.. and several million have taken up that offer from just about everywhere.. Asia, Europe, the Americas and Africa.. with Palestinian arabs being shunted out of the place in droves and those born in the coutry who are arabs who were driven out have no right of return..... those that stay are discriminated against, abused and treated as scum by the state of Israel. Israel is simply a racist state.. Israel is not quite Nazi Germany.. but it certainly learned a trick or two from it..

[TwylaTwobits]

Sure they did, Fran.... did they borrow the ovens too? Really this is getting beyond a joke they are not racists. Racism is based on race, Jews are Jews due to religion. They are a Jewish nation as promised when it was first set up in 1948. All they have done since inception is defend themselves against the Arabs who want to destroy them. Over and over again they have been attacked and they have not only repelled they also took parts of the offenders territory. Hence the whole issue with the Gaza Strip. There are Muslims in this world that have called for a Jihad on Israel. Not because the nation did anything wrong but because they are Jews. Yet there is listed on the Israeli tourist site information about Israeli Muslims, who live and practice in Israel without fear of reprisals from Jewish neighbors. So yeah they learned a thing or two from the Nazis, they learned what hate does to a nation and they are reaching for peace to their Arab neighbors only to be rejected again and again. I feel for them greatly. They were dropped in the middle of Arabs and were probably not expected to survive let alone thrive.

[darkeyes]

Religion or race, to treat other people as they do and as a state to treat their own citizens of one race as they do is racism.. don't make excuses for it, Twyla.. as many seem quite happy to do.. I do not tar every Israeli Jew with the same brush, because thankfully a large proportion of the Jewish population share the distaste for what the state does as I do, as indeed do many Jewish people outside of Israel a few of which I know personally, but the Israeli state is a racist state.. Israel's own human rights organisation accepts that.. but of course they are activists and therefore terrorists and to be safely ignored as nuts... any state which acts as it does internally (and externally for that matter) can never avoid that accusation... I doubt that in 1948 the UN would have sanctioned the creation of Israel had it known just how it would treat arabs.. it certainly would not now..

[TwylaTwobits]

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.

[darkeyes]

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.I'm not blind to the history Twyla and I no more approve of any attempts to crush Israel than do you.. but no I do not believe we read or see the same news.. the British media, and that of other European countries are not those of the US.. I hate and condemn war and violence from wherever it comes, but I understand what desperation can do to people when they have been dispossessed.. that both sides have to get out of this cycle of violence and talk to each other and settle things is beyond doubt.. with every rocket into Israel and every Israeli incursion into Gaza, and incidents such as this, it is becoming ever more difficult for the two sides to find common ground..

..and Israel doesn't main and destroy women and children for sport..but its military apparently does in its name.. in Europe at least we have seen the pictures on TV of just that.. every bit and more compelling than anything shown of the raid on the convoy.. and let me turn it around... what did the soldiers think the crew and others on board would do when they attached the ship? There are no rose coloured specs here Twyla.. only a sad and heart breaking acknowledgement of a nasty reality..

[void()]

"Sometimes, I am convinced that there has to be strange brainwashing chemical ingredients placed in the drinking water of the USA. Then I realize that brainwashing some US people is easy to do and you don't need to drug them."

I'm just saying ... not all of us are the mindless sheep you elucidate of.

That said beyond votes that can be bought, stolen, what can we do? If we rise up in aggression it defeats the purpose of doing it peacefully. If we remain silent in bitter dissent, it denotes our compliance even against our will. So, either way we're f****ed over a barrel without a reach around or lube.

Personally, I recall a billboard we have on Route 11 nearing New Market, VA.. The sign reads "If one is oppressed, all are. Where oppression exists, freedom does not." This displays in large red letters. There is no mistake in words. Could it be an incitement? Possibly.

For me it sets a tone of thought, an idea. "Hey, that's what America was founded upon. Wouldn't it be great to get back to that?" Look around, so many unemployed, without health care, afraid of the patrolling 1st battalion of the army on our soil, a new fungus created in an army bases in Maryland that destroys poppies ... (sigh) ... all this damn shit weighing us all down.

"Ehhh ... Fuck the Bozos!"


I'm tired of existing merely to exist. There's more to life than that. Tired of fighting, been fighting in one way or another all 38 years of my life. Keep getting sunshine blown up my ass, "hang on honey, it's worth 'the good fight'." Fuck the 'good fight', there never has been one, really. I should not need to fight in order to have joy, to just be able to walk across a street.

I don't care about names, nations, religions, classes ... fuck you all. Let's stop the fight. I mean c'mon we're all human, let's have joy in that, joy in our differences. Difference only serves to better us. But nah, everybody gots to kill the different one. Fuck it.

I've a new favorite quote. "Quicksand got no sense of humor, I'm still laughing like hell!" You maroons go on with your 'jolly good fight', I'm out.

[tenni]

The issue of the boarding merchant ships in international waters and whether Israel has the right to do this may be of primary importance. When is such a boarding priracy and when is it acceptable?

It all seems like a big PR game. Reports here are discussing the video footage that has been spammed across the world compared to reports from those who were on the ships. The footage comes from footage that was taken during the attack. All of it has been selectively released by Israel after the soldiers took it from apparently 60 reporters that were on these ships. It has been noted that no footage of the shootings has been released. Is Israel winning the PR game? I would say yes in North America but not so it appears in Europe?

I can not see how Israel had the right to board these ships in international waters though. The US and Canada(grr) seem to be supporting Israel unconditionally and merely quietly raising a eyebrow but only slightly. Under what conditions does a country have the right to board merchant ships in international waters? It seems once again ...if you have the might (gun power) you may.

[TwylaTwobits]

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.

[tenni]

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.

What type of ships were they Twyla? They were not military ships and they were (supposedly) carrying humanitarian aid supplies. Which country is at war with Israel? Turkey is a country where these ships originated and some were under the Turkish flag. Turkey had good relations with Israel and was one of Israel's friends or at least reportedly more friendly than many of Israel's neighbours. Turkey was not at war with Israel. Turkey may declare Israel's actions as a sign of war actions against Turkey. When US ships were invaded in International waters your country was quick to retaliate militarily but did not invade Somalia.

Let's keep with the facts and not supposition. We do not know about any rockets on these ships. I'm sure that if there were rockets that Israel would have produced them by now for the world to see.

btw Where are these ships and the supplies now? I understand that the people refused Israel's offer to deliver the aid because Israel would determine which were humanitarian and which were not(apparently school supplies were not considered humanitarian aid by Israel). Are these ships in an Israeli port?

[Canticle]

''Sure they did, Fran.... did they borrow the ovens too?''

This was uncalled for Twyla. No one should forget that 6 million Jews died in WWII, along with Gypsies, Homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled, dissidents who spoke out against Nazism, etc,

''Really this is getting beyond a joke they are not racists.''

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong. Israel is one of the most racist states in the world and Israeli Jews look down upon Arabs. Semites being anti-semitic.

''Racism is based on race, Jews are Jews due to religion.''

Once again, you are incorrect. Jews are not just followers of Judaism (although anyone can become a convert to Judaism, as with any other religion). Being Jewish is also a Jew's race, even if (as probably 100% of Jews have become), there is no connection to the Middle East, other than historically.

Jews, like other nomadic peoples, left their homelands and colonised other parts of the world, marrying those from the local population, So these Jews are what one could called hybrids. They are not the ''pure,'' stock, which left the Middle East. However, they are still Jews and Jewish and many share similar physical charateristics.

Jews are probably the only people of faith, who are not only of the same religion as one another, but also consider themselves a ''people''........and a people, seen in that sense.....is a race.

No matter that they share the same ancestry, way back, as Arabs and others from that part of the world.

It has already been proven, by DNA testing, with remains, from aechaeological digs, that the ancient Jews and the people of Canaan, were one and the same people.

There were Jews in the land ''flowing with milk and honey,'' long before the supposed escape from Egypt.

Jewish people may come from different parts of the world, but they do consider themselves to be a ''people,''....aka a race. No matter if they convert to another religion, they remain Jewish.

My husband's cousin's ex-wife is Jewish. She is a Christian convert, but she is still Jewish. Their daughter would be considered Jewish, for to be considered Jewish, the birth mother is required to be Jewish.

Now, none of that has anything to do with religion. What makes a race?.....Is it a shared religion.....culture....bloodline......heritage etc? If so, then being Jewish is more than a religion. It is a race.

''They are a Jewish nation as promised when it was first set up in 1948. All they have done since inception is defend themselves against the Arabs who want to destroy them. Over and over again they have been attacked and they have not only repelled they also took parts of the offenders territory. Hence the whole issue with the Gaza Strip.''

A state, artificially created. Created to give people from a certain race.......not religion.....a homeland.......Since when does a religion need a homeland?

A state, artificially created and in that creation, driving from the land, thousands of Palestnian Arabs, both Christian and Muslim. Driving them from their homeland. Making many of them live in refugee camps, for decades. How can that ever be justified?

Six million Jews may have died in WWII, but 55 million plus people died, in total. Where is the home land which was created, for others persecuted by the axis forces, who had no true homeland of their own.

If the Western and mainly Christian world, decides that a homeland has to be created for the Jewish Nation, then it is hardly surprising that the surrounding countries, mainly Muslim, should feel a little peeved.

There were Jews in the Middle East, prior to 1948, so to create a State of Israel, was to make the allies feel better about themselves. The feelings of the people native to the area, were not considered. Not in any way.

Israel is not a Middle Eastern country. It is a country populated with Jews brought in from the West and from other parts of the Globe. It's a like a part of Europe or America had been just scooped up and placed in the Middle East.

Therefore, with all the contacts, that this very European heritaged Jewish country, has, it is not surprising that they will have weapons, spot on military training etc etc etc. Israel is a wealthy country and wealth goes a long way, in war and being able to afford the necessary arsenal to be re-stocked and re-stocked.

''There are Muslims in this world that have called for a Jihad on Israel''

This is their right......EVEN if it is wrong. You can't say it's OK for Israel to behave in a certain manner, but not other people, or nations.

''Not because the nation did anything wrong but because they are Jews.''

So Israel does nothing wrong? Invading surrounding areas, especially Lebanon, when IT sees fit. Deciding it has the right to blockade an area. Sending it's secret service people...aka Mossad, to deal with people, and further afield than the Middle East.

Declaring itself the chosen nation, God's own and thinking that all the land in the area belongs to Isarael, by right, and no one else. Funny thing is....way, way back.....during Roman occupation and before and after, Jews shared the land, upon which they lived, with people of other races and religions.

''Yet there is listed on the Israeli tourist site information about Israeli Muslims, who live and practice in Israel without fear of reprisals from Jewish neighbors.''

These people are a minority and I wonder what would happen, if these ''special case'' Israeli Muslims, decided to rebel and become dissidents?

''So yeah they learned a thing or two from the Nazis, they learned what hate does to a nation and they are reaching for peace to their Arab neighbors only to be rejected again and again.''

Israel, the peaceful, free, non-racist, non-war-mongering, wants to live in perpetual blissful relations with it's neighbours, state. I think not. So, Twyla, you truly believe that Israel always wants peace and the Arab, or non-Arab, Muslim countries, of the area, don't? Think again.

''I feel for them greatly. They were dropped in the middle of Arabs and were probably not expected to survive let alone thrive.''

No, Twyla, the surrounding countries, had an artificially created, Jewish State, dropped on THEM. Israel wa expected to succeed, by the West. Israel had the backing of the wealthy Western countries and the input, financially, of monies from the many, very wealthy Jewish organisations, around the Globe.

You should read a history of the Rothschild family and how those original 18th century money lenders, became wealthy bankers, spread out across the world and became so very influential, in the corridors of power.

The West, always knew that Israel would suvvive and prosper.

[Canticle]

Religion or race, to treat other people as they do and as a state to treat their own citizens of one race as they do is racism.. don't make excuses for it, Twyla.. as many seem quite happy to do.. I do not tar every Israeli Jew with the same brush, because thankfully a large proportion of the Jewish population share the distaste for what the state does as I do, as indeed do many Jewish people outside of Israel a few of which I know personally, but the Israeli state is a racist state.. Israel's own human rights organisation accepts that.. but of course they are activists and therefore terrorists and to be safely ignored as nuts... any state which acts as it does internally (and externally for that matter) can never avoid that accusation... I doubt that in 1948 the UN would have sanctioned the creation of Israel had it known just how it would treat arabs.. it certainly would not now..

Well said

[darkeyes]

I understand there were some 60 journalists on board as well as some 500 activists, many with vidcams all of which have been confiscated.. if Israel are so confident that the evidence proves their version of events why don't they produce all of it and give it unedited to the UN, the Red Cross and other impartial bodies and let the world see just what those on board the ship saw from the time the Israeli military appeared on the horizon... and why does the Israeli film stop before people started to die?

There are two sides to every story.. one side is allowed to speak but prove no evidence.. the other speak and provide incomplete evidence..

[Canticle]

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.


I really do wonder, where people on the other side of the pond get their ''unbiased,'' news reports and history from.

''They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs.''

So if Israel does anything, it's OK...Is that what you are saying. Twyla?

''If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it.''

And the financial and political backing from other countries and jewish organisations and individuals. And the arrogance, to think that what was written about three thousand years ago, gives the artificially created state of Israel, the god given right to the land.

Go back to the stories of King David and how the nation, which even then called itself Israel, declared war on nearly every other tribal people, just so that they could have the land, which God had promised to them. Not that there is any concrete historical evidence, for the existence of such a King, but most legends are based upon some true facts.

''Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it.''

Sighs.

''Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive.''

Really? How can you be so sure? Is this what your news reports have told you? Israel does not like having dissidents, of any sort. Look up Mordechai Vanunu. He was treated so well, by his own race!!!!

''Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some.''

Ohhh and don't we know it!!!......So if Irael does this...it's OK.....but not if one is an Arab, or non Arab, Muslim or Christian people??? What Israel wnats to do, any time, any place, is OK....is it???

''What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?''

I reckon a lot of scared people, knew exactly how the Israeli forces, were likely to behave and that fear, made them arm themselves.

There were old and young on those boats, people from many countries, a Holocaust survivor, journalists. But that's OK, they must have been anti-israel, so I guess that you would say, that they got what what they deserved. Sheesh!

I don't think Fran has been wearing rose-tinted glasses, but i do think that a lot of people across the pond, wear blindfolds and believe what they are spoon fed.

[Canticle]

The issue of the boarding merchant ships in international waters and whether Israel has the right to do this may be of primary importance. When is such a boarding priracy and when is it acceptable?

It all seems like a big PR game. Reports here are discussing the video footage that has been spammed across the world compared to reports from those who were on the ships. The footage comes from footage that was taken during the attack. All of it has been selectively released by Israel after the soldiers took it from apparently 60 reporters that were on these ships. It has been noted that no footage of the shootings has been released. Is Israel winning the PR game? I would say yes in North America but not so it appears in Europe?

I can not see how Israel had the right to board these ships in international waters though. The US and Canada(grr) seem to be supporting Israel unconditionally and merely quietly raising a eyebrow but only slightly. Under what conditions does a country have the right to board merchant ships in international waters? It seems once again ...if you have the might (gun power) you may.

Well said Tenni

[Canticle]

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.


In what way can the Israeli blockade of Gaza be called legal, To blockade the area is an act of wae in itself.

Since when can civilian ships commit an act of war, against a country, if merely wanting to deliver aid to Gaza???

What jurisdiction does Israel have, for boarding vessels, on the high seas, in International waters? Does this mean that the State of israel feels that it has a God given right, to extend it's boders, wherever it sees fit?

And now, Twyla, you are saying ''for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range.'' How the hell do you come to that conclusion? Is that something being summised by the USA media?

This was piracy, upon the high seas. Israel committed an act of war, not the ''activists,'' as you refer to them.

[Canticle]

What type of ships were they Twyla? They were not military ships and they were (supposedly) carrying humanitarian aid supplies. Which country is at war with Israel? Turkey is a country where these ships originated and some were under the Turkish flag. Turkey had good relations with Israel and was one of Israel's friends or at least reportedly more friendly than many of Israel's neighbours. Turkey was not at war with Israel. Turkey may declare Israel's actions as a sign of war actions against Turkey. When US ships were invaded in International waters your country was quick to retaliate militarily but did not invade Somalia.

Let's keep with the facts and not supposition. We do not know about any rockets on these ships. I'm sure that if there were rockets that Israel would have produced them by now for the world to see.

btw Where are these ships and the supplies now? I understand that the people refused Israel's offer to deliver the aid because Israel would determine which were humanitarian and which were not(apparently school supplies were not considered humanitarian aid by Israel). Are these ships in an Israeli port?

Again...well said, tenni

[Canticle]

I understand there were some 60 journalists on board as well as some 500 activists, many with vidcams all of which have been confiscated.. if Israel are so confident that the evidence proves their version of events why don't they produce all of it and give it unedited to the UN, the Red Cross and other impartial bodies and let the world see just what those on board the ship saw from the time the Israeli military appeared on the horizon... and why does the Israeli film stop before people started to die?

There are two sides to every story.. one side is allowed to speak but prove no evidence.. the other speak and provide incomplete evidence..


And that, in itself, speaks volumes, Fran.

I wonder what would happen, if more ships sailed from Turkey, flying a flag bearing the Red Crescent, showing that this was a relief mission and other ships from different destinations, flying flags whish showed the emblem of the Red Cross. Or even some Jewish organisations, critical of the State of Israel, flying flags with the emblem of the Star of David. Would Irael dare to treat such vessels, in the same manner? I wonder?

[TwylaTwobits]

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

[TwylaTwobits]

To Tenni:

It was a group of six ships that were told not to break the blockade. They refused to let Israel deliver the portion they would allow. They chose to take the risk and they chose to stand as martyrs to the world. Sorry doesn't fly when they attacked the soldiers even as they were coming down the ropes.

[tenni]

A Dennis Haliday from an Irish "cargo" ship, Rachel Corrie, sailing with Humanitarian aid for Gaza just spoke on CBCnewsworld. He is an Irish citizen and a former UN official under the Secretary General. He answered several questions. He stated that he is hopeful that Israel with rethink how it behaves when the Irish ship that he is on reaches within Gaza's area. He is hopeful that they will let his ship through. In response to whether he thinks that his group would let Israel finish delivering the supplies, he stated that half of the shipment is "good Irish cement" (500 tonnes). He stated that both the activists and the UN determine cement a humanitarian material while Israel does not. He does not believe that half of the shipment would therefore be delivered by Israel.

Mr Haliday believes that the UN has failed the Palestinians for years as far as their homes, water, medical aid etc. To the question as to whether his actions are smart? He laughed and said that is a good question but he is about providing aid. He says that there are no weapons on the Rachel Corrie. They are nervous and anxious but determined. He is determined to respect any Israel military and hopes that they will respect the aid activist tonight (and not kill them). He wants the Israeli Gaza policies changed. They have no cameras with them though to document what may happen. No news agency went with them.

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

[TwylaTwobits]

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

[tenni]

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

Twyla
Thank goodness that you gave me ten minutes to finish (maybe) my editing...lol

One issue is that this cement is Humanitarian aid under the UN definition. Israel is refusing to accept the UN definition of what constitutes materials for humanitarian aid. If a country refuses to accept what the world states is a humanitarian aid material, then I say that the country is wrong.

[darkeyes]

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

[Gina7777]

WAR! What is it good for???

[TwylaTwobits]

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

My post wasn't to you, Fran my love. You and I both know where we stand and we still love each other any way. But people who have to multiquote drive me insane and I'm about to hit ignore.

[darkeyes]

WAR! What is it good for???

Business and making pots of profit....

[tenni]

WAR! What is it good for???

It was a good song :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

It is as good as ours..mind you..it is ours probably...half of the stuff we have is produced, delivered, mixed and used by Irish residents of the UK.. so no cheek.. never cheek from me Tenni you should know that by now..;)

[tenni]

It is as good as ours..mind you..it is ours probably...half of the stuff we have is produced, delivered, mixed and used by Irish residents of the UK.. so no cheek.. never cheek from me Tenni you should know that by now..;)

but...but ...but I like your cheekiness :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

but...but ...but I like your cheekiness :bigrin:

..ok then sinceya insist.. buggas prob nicked it all off our buildin' sites.. :tong:

[tenni]

..ok then sinceya insist.. buggas prob nicked it all off our buildin' sites.. :tong:

That's our fran....te..he..he

[TaylorMade]

Bob Dylan for the . . .

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

Copyright © 1983 Special Rider Music


*Taylor*

[Pasadenacpl2]

A Dennis Haliday from an Irish "cargo" ship, Rachel Corrie, sailing with Humanitarian aid for Gaza just spoke on CBCnewsworld. He is an Irish citizen and a former UN official under the Secretary General. He answered several questions. He stated that he is hopeful that Israel with rethink how it behaves when the Irish ship that he is on reaches within Gaza's area. He is hopeful that they will let his ship through. In response to whether he thinks that his group would let Israel finish delivering the supplies, he stated that half of the shipment is "good Irish cement" (500 tonnes). He stated that both the activists and the UN determine cement a humanitarian material while Israel does not. He does not believe that half of the shipment would therefore be delivered by Israel.

Mr Haliday believes that the UN has failed the Palestinians for years as far as their homes, water, medical aid etc. To the question as to whether his actions are smart? He laughed and said that is a good question but he is about providing aid. He says that there are no weapons on the Rachel Corrie. They are nervous and anxious but determined. He is determined to respect any Israel military and hopes that they will respect the aid activist tonight (and not kill them). He wants the Israeli Gaza policies changed. They have no cameras with them though to document what may happen. No news agency went with them.

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

[Canticle]

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

It's called freedom of speech and views. I have a brain too, a damned good one. Such agreements would not have been set up by England....but by the Government of the United Kingdom/Great Britain, England being one of three separate countries and part of a fourth, making up the United Kingdom. The Act of Settlement, to join the countries under one union, was signed in 1707, during the reign of the last Stuart Monarch, Queen Anne.

''So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.''

What may seem holier than thou, to you, will be views that others will agree with. The State of Israel, is no more sacred, than any other country, or people, upon this planet.

[Canticle]

A Dennis Haliday from an Irish "cargo" ship, Rachel Corrie, sailing with Humanitarian aid for Gaza just spoke on CBCnewsworld. He is an Irish citizen and a former UN official under the Secretary General. He answered several questions. He stated that he is hopeful that Israel with rethink how it behaves when the Irish ship that he is on reaches within Gaza's area. He is hopeful that they will let his ship through. In response to whether he thinks that his group would let Israel finish delivering the supplies, he stated that half of the shipment is "good Irish cement" (500 tonnes). He stated that both the activists and the UN determine cement a humanitarian material while Israel does not. He does not believe that half of the shipment would therefore be delivered by Israel.

Mr Haliday believes that the UN has failed the Palestinians for years as far as their homes, water, medical aid etc. To the question as to whether his actions are smart? He laughed and said that is a good question but he is about providing aid. He says that there are no weapons on the Rachel Corrie. They are nervous and anxious but determined. He is determined to respect any Israel military and hopes that they will respect the aid activist tonight (and not kill them). He wants the Israeli Gaza policies changed. They have no cameras with them though to document what may happen. No news agency went with them.

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

Oh, this will be interesting, Tenni, because the Eire Government is usually pretty neutral when it comes to world affairs......but if a ship containing Irish nationals, was attacked by Israel, they might not feel that way at all.

[Canticle]

Twyla
Thank goodness that you gave me ten minutes to finish (maybe) my editing...lol

One issue is that this cement is Humanitarian aid under the UN definition. Israel is refusing to accept the UN definition of what constitutes materials for humanitarian aid. If a country refuses to accept what the world states is a humanitarian aid material, then I say that the country is wrong.

Well said.

[Canticle]

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

Again, well said, Fran.

[Canticle]

My post wasn't to you, Fran my love. You and I both know where we stand and we still love each other any way. But people who have to multiquote drive me insane and I'm about to hit ignore.

Therefore you stifle freedom of speech and just ignore what you don't to read, hear, or be told.

What a shame.......................

[tenni]

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

Pasa
One question is are the waters that touch Gaza, Gaza's territory or Israel territory? If Israel is admitting that Gaza is a free state with its own elected officials, why is it appropriate?

An international maritime law expert states that the procedure for a blockading country is:
Running a blockade is illegal according international maritime law.
Procedure to follow by the blockading country with a ship trying to break the blockade
1/ hail the vessel
2/ fire the shot across the ship
3/ board the ship

Innappropriate force boarding a ship breaking a blockade is not permitted once boarded. The expert stated that Israel made mistakes on Monday that resulted in unnecessary deaths.

The expert states that Israel did not use enough force before boarding. They should have tear gassed the ships on Monday before boarding the ships.

[Canticle]

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

What exactly would you like to see the Israelis do in their territorial waters??? Board every vessel, arrest all those on board, maybe shoot a few innocent, humanitarian people, or perhaps blow the ships out of the water???

Gaza has some coastline...

So what about their territorial waters????????

[Pasadenacpl2]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

[tenni]

Really? Well, that I am uncertain about. You may be correct but Gaza has its own elected government does it not? I thought that Gaza separated from Palestine. There is too grey an area where Israel gets to state that Palestine and Gaza are not sovereign but they claim to be sovereign.


Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

It nay have been occupied by Israel.. but it has never been owned by them.. and it is no longer occupied by them.. merely blockaded and abused as if the people mean nothing.. and you can talk right wing up your own backside tripe till the cows come home you still talk tripe.. as bloody usual!!!

[Canticle]

To Tenni:

It was a group of six ships that were told not to break the blockade. They refused to let Israel deliver the portion they would allow. They chose to take the risk and they chose to stand as martyrs to the world. Sorry doesn't fly when they attacked the soldiers even as they were coming down the ropes.

Why should the Israelis be trusted to deliver any aid to Gaza?

What right has Israel to blockade Gaza, in the first place.

Just how did the people on boared the boats, attack soldiers who had not yet reached the deck of the boat?

What makes Israel right and everyone else wrong?

Why do the USA and a few other countries, so often refuse to condemn Israel, when Israel is the agressor?

What gives Jews the right to build on land, which has been taken away from Palestinians? Have you ever seen footage of the Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes, so that immigrant Jews, can build homes of their own.

What right does Israel have to blight the Holy land, by building a wall across it. If this was 1961 and Israel was the Soviet Union, the country would be roundly condemned.

[Canticle]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

Gaza does not belong to Israel. What a pity the State of isarael was created in 1948.

[Canticle]

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

What right have Israel to decide what is and isn't humanitarian aid? Oh.....let me guess.....they think that Israel is the chosen nation of God

[Pasadenacpl2]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

[Canticle]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

I will quote this to you, as spoken by Oliver Cromwell, to Charles I (a proud, arrogant and haughty man, not that I am suggesting you are), to try to make the Monarch see sense and reality and to avoid the necessity to execute the King, the Head of State, the annointed before God, at his coronation.

If you have found yourself to be incorrect in one area, ''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.'' about other things!!

The Israeli State was artificially created, but created it was and 60 years on, it is not going to go away. That is fact. We all know that. But this does not take away the fact, that thousands of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, were driven from their homelands and forced to live in refugee camps.

Over the past 60 years, the Israeli state, has shipped in quite a few million, non native Jews, into Israel and those settlers have not had any regard for the land which still belonged to Palestinian Arabs. They have tried to build wherever they wanted, even going into the Arab areas of Jerusalem...a holy city to Jew, Christian and Muslim.

The Israeli state is an arrogant one. It does not think, that it is ever in the wrong and believes that it can do exactly what it likes. You may consider some of the Palestinian factions to be terrorists. To the Palestinians and I am sure, not to all of them, these people are freedom fighters. Fighting for them, where the rest of the world has not.

Over 60 years ago, there were Jews in the land then known as Palestine, who were regarded as terrorists. Those ''terrorists,'' later became leaders of the State of Israel. One man's terrorist is very often, another man's freedom fighter.

The Israeli state does treat the Palestinians badly and looks down on them. Arabs, like Jews, are Semites. We are taught that it is wrong to be anti-semitic. The state of Israel comes down hard on Jewish dissidents and the country also has a large nuclear area and it has nuclear weapons.

Why should Israel be treated differently. Yes, Jews suffered greatly during the Holocaust, but genocide has been going on since the first tribal battles humans fought and we have seen genocide of Muslims in Europe, in recent years and also massacres in parts of Africa and God alone knows, where else.

Gaza has it's own coastline and I would argue that this means it also has territorial waters, which the Israeli's have no right to enter. What the Israelis did to those boats was in international waters, was piracy and an act of war.

The state of Israel is too fond of taking things into it's own hands and carrying out raids, in different parts of the world and don't think that Mossad is not around, in every country, which the Israelis deem necessary. They assassinate people, to get rid of them.

Yes, the other side does this too and that is not right, either. One hits out, the other hits back and so it goes on, but Israel is meant to be a wealthy, civilised country. I see no signs of it.

Google Mordechai Vanunu...a Christian convert. It seems that Jews don't like other Jews converting to Christianity, anymore than Muslims like other Muslims to do so. Also they do not like their dirty secrets revealed.

''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.''

Think on a little more.

[darkeyes]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

Bugga..an ther wos me wiv a more detailed smart arse reply 2 ya Pasa... an ya admits ya wer wrong.. yas taken me breath away...;)

[darkeyes]

Fingers crossed for the Rachel Corrie.. lets hope she does betta than the girl she is named afta did 'gainst an Israeli bulldozer...:)

[tenni]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

Now here is a gentleman of decency and honour.

[Hephaestion]

If Gaza is not occupied and is its own self governing entity then, as someone else pointed out, whose territorial waters are the Israeli boats thundering up and down in (as we are able to see on our news broadcasts)?

Good luck to the present humanitarian sailing.

.

[tenni]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

[Long Duck Dong]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

pity that the activists never did that in the first place.... 9 lives would have been saved.....

apparently there was a agreement between ireland and israel over this lot and the activists chose to ignore that and try and do it their way......
are the activists that fuckin stupid that they did not learn the first time ???


so now another attempt and thank god that the activists this time, had the common sense not to try and go all rambo on a trained professional soldiers ass.... its just a shame that they lacked the common sense to just sail to the port in the first place.....

I am all for people standing up for their beliefs and rights.... but I believe in the power of compromise and peaceful resolution...... that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

[darkeyes]

that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

Thats a fuckin awful thing 2 say Duckie... it makes u sound heartless an positively nasty.. thats hardly compromise is it?? It makes u sound every bit as nasty as the I believe Netanyahu and his bloody government are... now we know just where u stand...:( It seems u dont believe in people standing up for their rights at all...

[tenni]

Maybe someone is off his meds today?
:eek: :eek:

[darkeyes]

Maybe someone is off his meds today?
:eek: :eek:

Hope its that Tenni.. reely dus...:)

[Canticle]

pity that the activists never did that in the first place.... 9 lives would have been saved.....

apparently there was a agreement between ireland and israel over this lot and the activists chose to ignore that and try and do it their way......
are the activists that fuckin stupid that they did not learn the first time ???


so now another attempt and thank god that the activists this time, had the common sense not to try and go all rambo on a trained professional soldiers ass.... its just a shame that they lacked the common sense to just sail to the port in the first place.....

I am all for people standing up for their beliefs and rights.... but I believe in the power of compromise and peaceful resolution...... that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

Shame on you, LDD. Shame on you.

[Canticle]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

So another act of piracy and war by the Israelis. I hope many more ships set out for Gaza. I hope that ship after ship will try to get across international waters, to the territorial waters of Gaza. I hope that they will sail there in their hundreds.

[boca.openminded]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

Pasa

I 100% agree...

How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace? They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods. The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.

There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!"

The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.

Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.

[darkeyes]

I 100% agree...

How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace? They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods. The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.

There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!"

The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.

Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.

Israel probably does want peace.. it cant hold out encircled forever.. sure it has nuclear weapons but do they really believe that will save them from ultimate destruction unless there is peace? I think it was Noam Chomsky who said that Israel is expendable to US policy.. and I think he is right.. when the day comes that Israel is of no further use to the US it will be discarded like so many pairs of old socks. Then what do they do? I believe Israeli's are aware of this and so they will do what they can to neuter as far as possible any opposition from the surrounding states while they continue to be America's favourite son.. Iran and nuclear weapons? That will be the end of both.. Israel more so because Israel is a much smaller population in a much smaller land area.. it may be the end of us all if it escalates... so it is in Israel's interest for peace.. but what Israel wishes is peace at Israel's price and so it throws its weight about like the bully it is.. Arab nations certainly bear their share of responsibility for Israel thinking in this way, but Israel could and should have shown greater magnanimity in victory and more patience in its search for a lasting peace which would be beneficial to all.. now with every year that passes Israel creates more problems for itself by throwing its weight around more often than not against unarmed civilians rather than those they term terrorist..

Israel wants peace on Israel's terms.. at present there is no middle way.. not with Netanyahu at the helm of government... whatever the historical reasons for it, that is their price and that price is unnacceptable to Palestinian arabs in particular and arabs and much of the rest of the muslim world in general..

[Canticle]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

What you have stated here is slightly ludicrous and I mean no personal insult, there. The people were already in the area and missiles have been fired at Israel for many years, just as Israel has fired missiles back, for a considerable amount of time, as well as launching invasions and attacks on other neighbours. Or have you forgotten what Israel did to Lebanon a couple of years back. I know I have not.

''The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.''

Of course, the Israeli authorities, would never do a similar thing, would they and they wouldn't bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, so that Israelis could go against agreements reached, about not building on Palestinian land. No, they wouldn't do that, would they?

'There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!" '

Agreed..........but you have to remember why Arab and non Arab Muslim countries, are still bitter about the creation....not evolution......but creation and by outside forces......of the State of Israel.

''The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.''

Who, are the Western powers, to tell any other country, that it should not and cannot have, nuclear weapons? Why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons?

What proof is their that Iraq intended to have nuclear weapons? Saddam Hussein was meant to be stockpiling, weapons of mass destruction! Gee....have they been found, yet? Iraq, as a country, has been pretty much screwed up now and will be that way for decades to come.

Just because Iran wants nuclear power, it doesn't mean that they wish to have nuclear weapons. It's gotta be proven.

And here is another thought. If any of the Islamic countries surrounding Israel, had nuclear weapons and decided to use them, to destroy Israel. they would also destroy the most holy places, held sacred by their religion.

The land and the different areas of the land, are totally sacred to Islam, as they are to Judaism and even Christianity. Do you think that they would risk the wrath of Allah, for destroying the ''holy'' land.

They would also kill thousands of Muslims. I'd be more affeared of Israel using her nuclear capabilities.

So we critics of Israel....ain't f*****g crazy.

''Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.''

Oh, Israel will not think that it is at fault, because it believes itself to be the chosen nation. And how do you know the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues. Do you have proof???

[Hephaestion]

boca "...They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace ..."

It's the Palestinian's land to begin with? So therefore all the Iraelis did was to not occupy it (which would have been more expensive).

The question arises as to whether the Iraelis are in fact solvent. Unless war makes a profit in booty and other gains e.g. oil then it is a drain on a county's resources. Only thing that comes to mind is relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA. ANyone have an answer?

Maybe it would have been better if Israel had taken the original offer to set up their country in Uganda.

.

[Canticle]

From The Guardian newpaper online...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-attack-autopsy-results



Also, reading the Saturday edition report, gives further details.

[darkeyes]

The question arises as to whether the Iraelis are in fact solvent. Unless war makes a profit in booty and other gains e.g. oil then it is a drain on a county's resources. Only thing that comes to mind is relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA. ANyone have an answer?

.

Relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA and good deals on weapons.. and Jaffa oranges..

[tenni]

Today, across Canada in cities such as Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and many other cities there were protest marches opposed to Israel's actions. In Toronto there was also a smaller group Jewish Defence League counter protesting. In Montreal one person stated to the reporter that there was going to be fund raiser for "Free Gaza Movement". There was also talk about sending a Canada-Quebec ship with humanitarian aid.

One person stated that this time it was not just Arabs who were protesting and against Israel.

[Mmonty]

The convoy was at sea by that time Duckie.. it wasnt said before they left.. they were told to turn back.. trust is a great thing.. the trouble with Israel is they have long since lost the trust of just about everyone...

The Blockade has been going on for years. EVERY BODY KNOWS about it. There were activists aboard that ship who intended to run through it.

If Israel doesn't inspect the ships , then arms are sent in. Israel has successfully been inspecting cargo and having the humanitarian aid sent in for a long time.
Is there a better way for them to protect themselves? Suggestions? Hamas is hell bent for their destruction. They have a right to defend themselves.
The US does the same thing in time of war, and when there are terrorist threats.

[Pasadenacpl2]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.

Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.

Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.

There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.

You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.

Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.

I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.

And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.

I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.

Pasa

[nakedheathen]

No wonder can never get laid off this site. Everyone is busy arguing.

[Canticle]

''First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.''

This is a silly thing to post. Are you trying to say. that no one who was driven from their homelands, no one at all, is alive today? Do people only live 62 years? There will be people, aged 60 and upwards, who lost the right to live in the places, inhabited by their families, for generations. This exile will also affect the children and grandchildren, of those who were turfed out of their homeland.

Are you trying to tell me that every single Muslim or Christian Palestinian was a nomad and as recently as 1948. You talk about 1948 as if it was hundreds of years ago. Who lived in the cities and the villages. This is rubbish.

''Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.''

Many of the Palestinians lived in refugee camps. Were they supposed to be grateful for that? Israel may have won the 6 day war...and it just happens to be June 6th...right now in the UK, but is does not mean that Israel had any right to hold on to any land. Your words are extremely Christian, Pasa.....not!!

''Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.''

You really detest them, don't you.....at least this is how it comes across. Just think of all the money poured into Israel by wealthy western countries and by wealthy Jews from across the world. I guess the Palestinians were just unfortunate, that they missed out on anything like this.

If there had been no artificial creation of the State of Israel, maybe people from the three main religions, of the area, would be living peacefully and working together and living together, as equals and not with the Palestinians treated like 3rd class citizens, or even untouchables.

The State of Israel is not going to go away now, but the politicians who allowed it's creation and the displacement of the Christian and Muslim Palestinian people, have a lot to answer for.

''There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.''

I don't know how old you are, Pasa, but over the years I can remember there being many different ''rounds'' of peace talks and treaties signed. Israel is no better at keeping it's word than are the others. Look at this way.....originally, they were all the same people and I guess that even the European jews, shipped in, to become European Israelis, in an Asian land, must still have some of the same shared genetic heritage. They have that survivor instinct and all those peoples share that.

''Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.''

Probably because they knew that they would not be able to trust the bully boy State of Israel and who can blame them.

''Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.''

Israel does not have the right. to want to control over a people. After all...they did not like it. They have no rights in that area...not one bit. Israel doesn't just say it will destroy it's enemies...it actually does and sometimes in the most secret manner. Got to love all that money coming in to keep them going. That must have helped a lot, over the years.

''You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.''

Bigots...yes and also racist and like any country which gets too swollen a head....they could be capable of anything. They choose to shoot children and peaceful activists. If the boat, where the killings took place, was the last one to be boarded, I am not surprised if people tried to arm themselves, knowing that they would be no match for the trigger happy soldiers.

''Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.''

There should never have been a separate Jewish State. It was born out of guilt. Justify removing a people from their homeland, so that European Jews and Jews from other parts of the world, could be brought in, to mass populate the fledgling state.

Perhaps, if you were a Christian Palestinian, you would be able to understand how those people feel and just why they have a deep hatred of Israel.

''I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.''

Of course you will......and for obvious reasons.

''And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.''

How can the people on board the aid ships, be anti-semitic? What are Arabs? You automatically think, that because people do not approve of Israel and her behaviour, that they are anti-semitic...anti-Jewish. How juvenile.

And the words you speak about hoping ships encounter the Israelis...are not terribly Christian.

''I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.''

I haven't seen any racist comments. I have seen disapproval of one particular nation and the way that nation's arrogance, makes it unpopular. I am not anti-semitic....but I am anti the state of Israel as she is, at this point in history. I don't believe in the cause of Zion......because I don't think that Jews are any more special than anyone else. I don't think that Israel has some God given right to the land it occupies. That view does not make me anti-semitic...nor anyone else.

You need to be careful who you call racist...especially when your own words are looked at.


origin.......from wikipedia......and there's more there.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites. It was proposed at first to refer to the languages related to Hebrew by Ludwig Schlözer, in Eichhorn's "Repertorium", vol. VIII (Leipzig, 1781), p. 161. Through Eichhorn the name then came into general usage (cf. his "Einleitung in das Alte Testament" (Leipzig, 1787), I, p. 45). In his "Gesch. der neuen Sprachenkunde", pt. I (Göttingen, 1807) it had already become a fixed technical term.[1]

The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible (Genesis 5.32, 6.10, 10.21), or more precisely from the Greek derivative of that name, namely Σημ (Sēm); the noun form referring to a person is Semite.

The term "anti-Semitic" (or "anti-Semite") overwhelmingly refers to Jews only. It was coined in 1879 by German journalist Wilhelm Marr in a pamphlet called, "The Victory of Germandom over Jewry". Using ideas of race and nationalism, Marr argued that Jews had become the first major power in the West. He accused them of being liberals, a people without roots who had Judaized Germans beyond salvation. In 1879 Marr founded the "League for Anti-Semitism". [2]

The concept of "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendants of his cursed nephew, Canaan. In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics, despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah). Shem is also described in Genesis as the father of Elam and Lud, although the Elamites and Lydians usually thought to descend from these spoke languages that were not Semitic.

The hypothetical Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical Semitic languages in the Middle East, is thought to have been originally from either the Arabian Peninsula (particularly around Yemen) or the adjacent Ethiopian highlands. But its region of origin is still much debated and uncertain with, for example, a recent bayesian analysis identifying an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 5,750 BP with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 2,800 BP.[3] The Semitic language family is also considered a component of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family of languages. Identification of the hypothetical proto-Semitic region of origin is therefore dependent on the larger geographic distributions of the other language families within Afroasiatic.

[Long Duck Dong]

Thats a fuckin awful thing 2 say Duckie... it makes u sound heartless an positively nasty.. thats hardly compromise is it?? It makes u sound every bit as nasty as the I believe Netanyahu and his bloody government are... now we know just where u stand...:( It seems u dont believe in people standing up for their rights at all...

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

[boca.openminded]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

What you have stated here is slightly ludicrous and I mean no personal insult, there. The people were already in the area and missiles have been fired at Israel for many years, just as Israel has fired missiles back, for a considerable amount of time, as well as launching invasions and attacks on other neighbours. Or have you forgotten what Israel did to Lebanon a couple of years back. I know I have not.

''The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.''

Of course, the Israeli authorities, would never do a similar thing, would they and they wouldn't bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, so that Israelis could go against agreements reached, about not building on Palestinian land. No, they wouldn't do that, would they?

'There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!" '

Agreed..........but you have to remember why Arab and non Arab Muslim countries, are still bitter about the creation....not evolution......but creation and by outside forces......of the State of Israel.

''The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.''

Who, are the Western powers, to tell any other country, that it should not and cannot have, nuclear weapons? Why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons?

What proof is their that Iraq intended to have nuclear weapons? Saddam Hussein was meant to be stockpiling, weapons of mass destruction! Gee....have they been found, yet? Iraq, as a country, has been pretty much screwed up now and will be that way for decades to come.

Just because Iran wants nuclear power, it doesn't mean that they wish to have nuclear weapons. It's gotta be proven.

And here is another thought. If any of the Islamic countries surrounding Israel, had nuclear weapons and decided to use them, to destroy Israel. they would also destroy the most holy places, held sacred by their religion.

The land and the different areas of the land, are totally sacred to Islam, as they are to Judaism and even Christianity. Do you think that they would risk the wrath of Allah, for destroying the ''holy'' land.

They would also kill thousands of Muslims. I'd be more affeared of Israel using her nuclear capabilities.

So we critics of Israel....ain't f*****g crazy.

''Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.''

Oh, Israel will not think that it is at fault, because it believes itself to be the chosen nation. And how do you know the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues. Do you have proof???

Iran fk'n publicly stated they want to REMOVE Israel from the map. What do you think they are going to use nuclear weapons for? Also, Iran does not allow the UN to to random checks of their nuclear facilities. All checkups must be on Iran's terms & schedule. Their is proof that Iran has moved their nukes from 1 area to another so when the UN checks area 1 they find nothing there.

Why is it ok for Israel to have nukes? Because its proven they are not using their nukes against other countries. If you think differently then Iran would have nuked years ago.

I can't believe you are siding with Iran. Its unbelievable. Hey, Im not in favor of what happened with the convey either but to be in favor of Iran is just wrong..

Do not bring up Hussain and weapons of mass destruction. We all know Bush Jr was doing this as a way to fight his fathers battle which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

by the way how does states / countries get to be states or countries? Its by war or money. Most of the US states were actually created by who paid the most money (example: The Louisiana Purchase)...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Canticle - you exist in a world of should haves and ifs. The state of Israel should never have existed. Well, it does. Deal with it. We wouldn't need a two state solution if Israel had never existed. Well, it does. Hi, welcome to the real world.

You are incorrect to say that winning a war doesn't give you the right to keep territory you conquer. That's the way war works. In fact, that's the way any nation works.

Borders, Language, Culture. When you are incapable or unwilling to defend these, you lose your nation. The Palestinians were incapable of winning their war. They were incapable of keeping their border secure. As a result, the borders moved. That's the way it works.

I don't care much for the Palestinian's no. Not due to race, but due to their continual resort to violence, and their declaration that they want to exterminate the Jews. Once they say that, I have no pity. If they want a peace, I'm all for it. If they want war, I'm all for allowing Israel to truly bring them war.

Until now, Israel has played nice. Imagine if they finally said "enough."

Pasa

[richarddennis]

It's time for USA to fly in food/medical supplies to Palestine, just like we did to Germany when Russia blockaded them.

Eventually Egypt will open their borders to Gaza and the Israeli control of all that enters/exits Palestine will end for good.

[Canticle]

Canticle - you exist in a world of should haves and ifs. The state of Israel should never have existed. Well, it does. Deal with it. We wouldn't need a two state solution if Israel had never existed. Well, it does. Hi, welcome to the real world.

You are incorrect to say that winning a war doesn't give you the right to keep territory you conquer. That's the way war works. In fact, that's the way any nation works.

Borders, Language, Culture. When you are incapable or unwilling to defend these, you lose your nation. The Palestinians were incapable of winning their war. They were incapable of keeping their border secure. As a result, the borders moved. That's the way it works.

I don't care much for the Palestinian's no. Not due to race, but due to their continual resort to violence, and their declaration that they want to exterminate the Jews. Once they say that, I have no pity. If they want a peace, I'm all for it. If they want war, I'm all for allowing Israel to truly bring them war.

Until now, Israel has played nice. Imagine if they finally said "enough."

Pasa

Bull!!!!

I live in the real world....where we seem to see a very different view of the world than you do over the other side of the pond. the world has been dealing with the existence of the State of Israel since it's creation in 1948.
It's caused nothing but problems, in the Middle East.

Not a pacifist Christian, are you. You know, Fran was right. You talk a loada twaddle.

[Canticle]

It's time for USA to fly in food/medical supplies to Palestine, just like we did to Germany when Russia blockaded them.

Eventually Egypt will open their borders to Gaza and the Israeli control of all that enters/exits Palestine will end for good.

What a good idea.....Egypt to open the border.....but would the Palestinians want anything, in the way of aid, from Israel's greatest supporter.....the USA? of course the USA is not the only country in the world, nor the most important, when it comes to handing out aid. I think the other countries of the world, would manage quite well, on their own.

[Canticle]

''Iran fk'n publicly stated they want to REMOVE Israel from the map. What do you think they are going to use nuclear weapons for? Also, Iran does not allow the UN to to random checks of their nuclear facilities. All checkups must be on Iran's terms & schedule. Their is proof that Iran has moved their nukes from 1 area to another so when the UN checks area 1 they find nothing there. ''

Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.

''Why is it ok for Israel to have nukes? Because its proven they are not using their nukes against other countries. If you think differently then Iran would have nuked years ago.''

That makes no sense at all. I like the logic...it's Ok for the Israelis to have nuclear weapons (not nukes...please), because they haven't used them against anyone. Well...apart from WWII, none of the other nuclear countries have. So that shoots that theory in the groin.

''I can't believe you are siding with Iran. Its unbelievable. Hey, Im not in favor of what happened with the convey either but to be in favor of Iran is just wrong..''

Did I say I was siding with Iran...did I? I don't think I did. Most certainly not. But if the debate...or discussion requires it....I'll argue in their favour....and I quite like arguing...it's the Yorkshire blood.

''Do not bring up Hussain and weapons of mass destruction. We all know Bush Jr was doing this as a way to fight his fathers battle which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.''

I'll bring up what I like, Sir. God, how I hate men, telling me what to do. I'll regurgitate every fact, idea, view, snippet of history, religious wrong doing...anything...if I see fit.

When it comes to young Dubya's invasion along with his allies...Gung Ho Blair (not a poodle....he'd run rings around Bush, anytime...Oxford educated barrister, don't you know), of an evil, yet still sovereign nation. I remember reading that Bush senior was reported to have told his son, that for the war to be succeeful, the allies would need to have the support and co-operation, of the muslim countries, in the area. Hmmmm!!!!

''by the way how does states / countries get to be states or countries? Its by war or money. Most of the US states were actually created by who paid the most money (example: The Louisiana Purchase)...''

Well, now you're just being too obvious and a little silly. What is happening in the world today is affected by what started kicking off thousands of years ago, with wars, peace, states coming together, civilisations rising and falling, more war, then religion, exploration, colonising, war, Empire.......it all has a knock on effect.

[Canticle]

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

No, LDD, what you said, was shameful, shameful in the extreme.

[Long Duck Dong]

No, LDD, what you said, was shameful, shameful in the extreme.

if you do not like it, tough !!!!!

the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....

the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission

the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to

but if you really wanna get down and dirty....

what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....

what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....

I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit.....

[darkeyes]

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

You know what I picked you up on Duckie.. don't try and side track me with waffle from the despicable thing you said.. the facts of just what happened are disputed and you know it..that you have accepted Israel's side of it is your affair.. I am not taking issue with that or your views on the difference between humanitarians and activists because I dont have the time.. but I do take issue with the casual, heartless, bastardly way in which you talk about killing human beings.... that is unnacceptable and inhumane.. whatever you think of what they are and what they have done..

[Hephaestion]

From the Guardian Newspaper article indicated by Canticle.

".......In a hastily arranged press conference in central Londonshortly after his Turkish airlines plane touched down at Heathrow, Ismail Patel, the 47-year-old chairman of the Friends of al-Aqsa, condemned what he called "the cold-blooded murder and killing of our colleagues". He said: "These deaths were avoidable and I lay the blame squarely with the Israelis."

Israel has previously said its troops had been left with no choice after they came under attack from activists armed with knives and iron bars when they were dropped by helicopter on to the ship.

Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them.

"Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped," she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. "We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence."

Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said, adding she was pleased her colleagues on the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel, were continuing to Gaza this weekend............"


Of course - everybody is lying except the Israelis

Also heartening is the USA declaration that Israel must modify its behaviour as the present stance on Gaza was untenable.

[darkeyes]

First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.

Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.

Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.

There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.

You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.

Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.

I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.

And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.

I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.

Pasa

One thing.. the argument is with the state of Israel, its government and its institutions.. like with many you confuse that with a general distaste for the a race.. racism of any colour is ugly... yet you and people like you are quite happy to support a racist state.. and for one to lecture us about anti semitism when they themselves continually harangue us with anti-arab sentiment is somewhat laughable.. think on this Pasa.. just how many Jews are actually semetic who live outside of Israel? .. and just how many are semetic inside the country?? Don't you dare lecture me about racism...

[Hephaestion]

No wonder can never get laid off this site. Everyone is busy arguing.

Oh come on now! Isn't make up sex better?

[Hephaestion]

Pasa you live in a country (USA) where the size of the ranches is bigger than some countries in the world. How about relocating Israel into the bosom of their loving friends? The Israelis could then help you anihilate the Mexican problem (NB NOT Mexicans).

I hear that New York is already one such place where Israel has a colony. There's always more room to be found where there is a will. Perhaps there?

Problem solved. The CIA and Mossad can teach each other new tricks. The Palestinians can get on with their lives, the Israelis will be out of harms way and one potential spark point in nuclear disaster will be eliminated.

.

[TwylaTwobits]

Pasa you live in a country (USA) where the size of the ranches is bigger than some countries in the world. How about relocating Israel into the bosom of their loving friends? The Israelis could then help you anihilate the Mexican problem (NB NOT Mexicans).

I hear that New York is already one such place where Israel has a colony. There's always more room to be found where there is a will. Perhaps there?

Problem solved. The CIA and Mossad can teach each other new tricks. The Palestinians can get on with their lives, the Israelis will be out of harms way and one potential spark point in nuclear disaster will be eliminated.

.

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.

[Long Duck Dong]

You know what I picked you up on Duckie.. don't try and side track me with waffle from the despicable thing you said.. the facts of just what happened are disputed and you know it..that you have accepted Israel's side of it is your affair.. I am not taking issue with that or your views on the difference between humanitarians and activists because I dont have the time.. but I do take issue with the casual, heartless, bastardly way in which you talk about killing human beings.... that is unnacceptable and inhumane.. whatever you think of what they are and what they have done..

I am cold and heartless cos I am a ex soldier.... I have seen another side to people that the average person doesn't

I am cold and heartless cos I have done counselling and therapy work and seen just how two faced people are

I am cold and heartless cos I have sat in this site and watched people talk about fighting for rights and activism has a side effect, its called collateral damage and tell me I am wrong for my stance on peaceful protest.... then watched people scream about collateral damage when people get killed

the simple fact of the matter is I am not taking any countries side.... I am actually pointing out the double standards of activists and how when they are the victims of their own actions, they refuse to take responsibility, yet they are always holding other people responsible for other peoples actions.....

the simple fact of the matter is activists boarded a convoy with the intention of creating a issue, and what a issue they created......
but are they saying collateral damage ??? hell no.... they are screaming bloody murder cos its their own asses that got handed to them, not some innocent party....( bit like the prom threads when it was fine that all the students lost their prom but that was fine.... but when constance never got her prom the way she wanted....all hell broke loose )....

[Long Duck Dong]

now I will explain something

yes I will put all the activists on a ship and sink it.......

the reason is simple and clear..... if they wanna place lives at risk, fine,....I will help them do it..... but I am more than happy to keep them away from innocent people that have no intention of risking life and limb in the name of a peaceful cause

now people see that as shameful and inhumane...... I see it as risk reduction
I reckon that I would have about mmm maybe 10-12 people of the original hundreds on the convoy, on the ship I am going to sink.... cos the rest of the people have enuf brains to know when to speak up and when to shut up

when you have activists like rachel corrie that stand in front of heavy moving machinery, they are a risk to themselves and a danger to others.... and there is a reason why they have warnings about standing in front of heavy moving machinery...... I know what its like, I used to operate heavy moving machinery and I would not like to have on going nightmares cos some stupid person stood in front of my bulldozer and got crushed......

now if anybody wants to still think that my comment is not acceptable, yet the actions of the people on the convoy attacking trained soldiers or standing in front of heavy moving machinery, is a sign of intelligence......... how do you think about going to sea....????

[hardnbubbly]

Sure, Israel thinks it deserves the 1967 lands. Keep them, keep them all.. every single inch of the land. However, there are people living there. I wonder, why aren't they citizens? Why is Israel petrified of the one state solution.


You can't have it both ways, you either want the land with the people on it. Or you don't. Stop with the hypocrisy. We live today, 2010, where a Palestinian child born in the same land as an Israeli can die of malnourishment whereas the Israeli lives like any first world country. Tell me what crime did this child do? An Israeli settlement on one of the hilltops in the westbank has 10 times the water resources than palestinian towns and villages down in the valley. They have swimming pools for their kids while the farmers are denied enough water for their farms.

Under what logic is this a democracy that protects human rights??

[hardnbubbly]

HI Twyla,

I did not mean to belittle your research abilities and so on. But you are 150% aligned with the official Israeli narrative of the story (even Israelis that I talk to don't see things this way). There are two sides to each story and possibly more. Yes Arab armies attacked Israel 60 years ago on its inception. But how about the ordinary people, those that became refugees, those that lost their homes, were separated from their families and were refused to be let back? Many of their villages still lay deserted in Israel. Western countries (including Canada may I say) paying money to Israel to build parks over these villages to erase their memory.

Whatever this history is, there are kids being born today in the West Bank and Gaza. What is their crime? Why are they denied basic human rights? Why are they denied medicine? food? education? Why are the born to the sound of sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets flighing so low over crowded cities? Why are there so many cases of trauma in Palestinian kids?

Let's forget about Palestinians. I am sure they are less than human beings and don't deserve equal human rights. I am curious, how would you explain this: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news...-ramallah.html
Wouldn't an american deserve better treatment?

[hardnbubbly]

Interesting you say this. How about the Palestinians that were "relocated" even though they never wanted to leave?


Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.

[TwylaTwobits]

Funny no one has mentioned the news out of Egypt where their high court ruled that citizenship will be revoked for any Egyptian male who marries an Israeli bride. It has nothing to do with the recent conflict, it's been an ongoing debate for awhile there. They view the marriage as being done by a traitor, so for loving an Israeli woman an Egyptian man will lose his citizenship and be called a traitor. They simply don't want the Arab blood tainted with Jewish blood and raising children not loyal to Egypt. Lovely people those Arabs eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm

[TwylaTwobits]

Interesting you say this. How about the Palestinians that were "relocated" even though they never wanted to leave?

Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. P

[hardnbubbly]

All the countries in the Middle east have their problems, and I agree this is disgusting. It's still no excuse for Israeli actions. Remember the Egyptian president calls the Israeli one to congratulate him on Israeli holidays. Maybe one day there will be peace. I just hope it won't be by extermination.



Funny no one has mentioned the news out of Egypt where their high court ruled that citizenship will be revoked for any Egyptian male who marries an Israeli bride. It has nothing to do with the recent conflict, it's been an ongoing debate for awhile there. They view the marriage as being done by a traitor, so for loving an Israeli woman an Egyptian man will lose his citizenship and be called a traitor. They simply don't want the Arab blood tainted with Jewish blood and raising children not loyal to Egypt. Lovely people those Arabs eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm

[TwylaTwobits]

All the countries in the Middle east have their problems, and I agree this is disgusting. It's still no excuse for Israeli actions. Remember the Egyptian president calls the Israeli one to congratulate him on Israeli holidays. Maybe one day there will be peace. I just hope it won't be by extermination.

I do as well, problem is that is what the Arabs want extermination of the Jews. The Jews would happily have peace but you have hundreds of thousands suffering because of the leadership of a few.

[hardnbubbly]

Chose to leave?

So by this logic, if people chose to leave after Katrina, and someone else took over their homes, they wouldn't be allow to go back.. Gee.. they lost the war yes.. but under all circumstance they have the right to go back.


I wonder if you replace the word Israel with say Iran/North Korea, and Palestinian with a random other minority in that country how that would sound.


Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. P

[TwylaTwobits]

HI Twyla,

I did not mean to belittle your research abilities and so on. But you are 150% aligned with the official Israeli narrative of the story (even Israelis that I talk to don't see things this way). There are two sides to each story and possibly more. Yes Arab armies attacked Israel 60 years ago on its inception. But how about the ordinary people, those that became refugees, those that lost their homes, were separated from their families and were refused to be let back? Many of their villages still lay deserted in Israel. Western countries (including Canada may I say) paying money to Israel to build parks over these villages to erase their memory.

Whatever this history is, there are kids being born today in the West Bank and Gaza. What is their crime? Why are they denied basic human rights? Why are they denied medicine? food? education? Why are the born to the sound of sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets flighing so low over crowded cities? Why are there so many cases of trauma in Palestinian kids?

Let's forget about Palestinians. I am sure they are less than human beings and don't deserve equal human rights. I am curious, how would you explain this: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news...-ramallah.html
Wouldn't an american deserve better treatment?

Since you posted your mail here, I'll post my response.

First, don't debate with me privately. If you have to something to say, post in in the thread for all to see. Second, American, Palestinian or Martian makes no difference, activists take the risks they choose.

[TwylaTwobits]

Chose to leave?

So by this logic, if people chose to leave after Katrina, and someone else took over their homes, they wouldn't be allow to go back.. Gee.. they lost the war yes.. but under all circumstance they have the right to go back.


I wonder if you replace the word Israel with say Iran/North Korea, and Palestinian with a random other minority in that country how that would sound.

Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.

And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?

[hardnbubbly]

Twyla,

Being an Arab I tell you that is not true. I know my people and I know the we are an emotional bunch, we get angry, we yell, we scream, but that's as far as we go. In Jordan and Egypt there are Israeli tourists going there. Palestinians in the Westbank (and previously from Gaza) work with Israelis often. The fanatics you are talking about exist on both sides and they are still a minority.

After all, people are people regardless of race, colour, religion, sexual orientation etc. We all want the same basic things: food, shelter, health, education, a hope for a great future for our kids.

I do remember stories my grandfather used to tell about him dating Jewish women in Jerusalem and how they used to live side by side and mix normally like any other place. I wish that they created a state on all of that land for all its people. A secular democratic state where every person is equal regardless of their race, religion, color, etc. Unfortunately the decision was made to create a state for jews only. By definition a state that is only for a single religion is not an equal state. Such a state grants more rights to a jewish kid born in New York that has never stepped foot in that land, than a Palestinian kid born on that land and whose grandparents lived on this land.

We live in a depressing world dont' we.


I do as well, problem is that is what the Arabs want extermination of the Jews. The Jews would happily have peace but you have hundreds of thousands suffering because of the leadership of a few.

[hardnbubbly]

It's an analogy. Hits a nerve doesn't it. I guess you do think Americans are worth more than Palestinians.

Btw, terrorists are a tiny minority. There are many ordinary people living in Gaza.

And btw, Israel in the past has considered it its right to attack any country imposing a blockade on it. Did someone change the rules suddenly? Wouldn't the logic apply to Gaza.

HUGE DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a supporter of violent resistance. Just pointing out a flaw in the logic used



Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.

And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?

[TwylaTwobits]

Really? Then tell that to all the documented speeches of leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan. Since they are ones calling for extermination of the Jewish nation.

[hardnbubbly]

Egypt, Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, so you got that completely off.

Palestinian leaders are in negotiation with Israel so this one is also wrong.

Syria and Iraq are part of the Arab league and they are part of the Pan-Arab peace offer to Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Plus, there is no such country as Palestine, it does not exist at the moment. All palestinian territories are occupied.


Btw... if Arabs are such monsters I wonder how there are bus loads of tourists entering Jordan everyday from Israel?


Really? Then tell that to all the documented speeches of leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan. Since they are ones calling for extermination of the Jewish nation.

[TwylaTwobits]

Egypt, Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, so you got that completely off.

Palestinian leaders are in negotiation with Israel so this one is also wrong.

Syria and Iraq are part of the Arab league and they are part of the Pan-Arab peace offer to Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Plus, there is no such country as Palestine, it does not exist at the moment. All palestinian territories are occupied.


Btw... if Arabs are such monsters I wonder how there are bus loads of tourists entering Jordan everyday from Israel?

I said documented speeches as in anyone who has called for Jihad or extermination of the Jewish nation. Right now the loudest screaming is Iran and they want nuclear weapons to blow Israel off the map, never mind the people in Gaza that might not survive the blow and definitely wouldn't survive the radiation. Or any of the other close Arab countries that will suffer should Iran send a nuclear bomb into Israel.

So how about you take a look at a few things...


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11583

http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyahu-world-is-gradually-accepting-iran-s-extermination-calls-1.284045

[hardnbubbly]

The world changes e.g. The IRA signed a peace treaty in Ireland.

At present, Israel has an unprecedented peace offer from the Arab world. It chooses to ignore it.

And btw, the only state in the middle east to hold nuclear weapons is Israel itself.

The second URL you posted doesn't work.


I said documented speeches as in anyone who has called for Jihad or extermination of the Jewish nation. Right now the loudest screaming is Iran and they want nuclear weapons to blow Israel off the map, never mind the people in Gaza that might not survive the blow and definitely wouldn't survive the radiation. Or any of the other close Arab countries that will suffer should Iran send a nuclear bomb into Israel.

So how about you take a look at a few things...


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11583

http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyahu-world-is-gradually-accepting-iran-s-extermination-calls-1.284045

[TwylaTwobits]

It's an analogy. Hits a nerve doesn't it. I guess you do think Americans are worth more than Palestinians.

Btw, terrorists are a tiny minority. There are many ordinary people living in Gaza.

And btw, Israel in the past has considered it its right to attack any country imposing a blockade on it. Did someone change the rules suddenly? Wouldn't the logic apply to Gaza.

HUGE DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a supporter of violent resistance. Just pointing out a flaw in the logic used

Analogies are generally comparative. Comparing a natural disaster to losing a war is seriously flawed if that is your idea of analogy.

[hardnbubbly]

My analogy is that people run away from war, natural disaster, etc. until things settle down.

In both cases people did run away.


Analogies are generally comparative. Comparing a natural disaster to losing a war is seriously flawed if that is your idea of analogy.

[TwylaTwobits]

What you stated with your analogy was not what you just said. There is no comparison to running away (If enough notice is given) from a natural disaster and running from a war. Losing a war leaves you with your home occupied by the victors and suffering a natural disaster leaves you with a mess to clean up when it's over.

You continue to say that not all the people of Gaza are terrorists, I never said all the people there are. But apparently enough of them are there that they have a steady supply of rockets to fire into Israel. That is why Israel has the right to inspect the "aid" that is coming in and reject anything that could be used for insurgence. They have no problem letting in food, blankets, medicine and clothing, they have a problem with the idea that they should allow a ship to just sail into that port and offload whatever. Put yourself in their shoes for one moment, your next door neighbor is barricaded by you from the rest of world because of his threat to kill you. You inspect any aid going in but you would not allow a gun and ammo or the means to make a bomb to go in now would you? If you would, then you are a bigger fool than the fool who threatens to wipe out a nation in the name of religion.

[TwylaTwobits]

The world changes e.g. The IRA signed a peace treaty in Ireland.

At present, Israel has an unprecedented peace offer from the Arab world. It chooses to ignore it.

And btw, the only state in the middle east to hold nuclear weapons is Israel itself.

The second URL you posted doesn't work.

Works fine for me me but I'll post the article it links to

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday called on the world "to confront Iran's exterminatory intentions and act resolutely to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons."

Netanyahu spoke at the state ceremony on the eve of the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.

"The historic failure of free societies to confront the Nazi beast was that they did not face it in time," Netanyahu said. "And today we are witness to the old hatred of Jews once again, fueled by extremist Islamic authorities, led by Iran and its satellites."

"Iran's leadership is racing to develop nuclear weapons and declares its intention to destroy Israel. The world is gradually accepting Iran's exterminatory declarations regarding Israel and still we do not see the international determination required to stop the arming of Iran. But if we learned something from the Holocaust, it is that we cannot remain quiet or flinch in the face of evil."

Earlier in the ceremony, President Shimon Peres said the world must not repeat its indifference at the face of new cries for the destruction of the Jewish people.

Peres went on to say that "Israel will never forget the two decrees which the Holocaust enforced."

"The firm demand to sustain an independent Jewish state, one that holds its security in its own hands while at the same time tirelessly seeking peace as well as the demand to treat threats of annihilation, Holocaust denials, and terror mongering with the utmost severity."

Referring to comments made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has threatened to "wipe the Zionist regime off the map," Peres said that it was Israel's right "and duty to demand the nations of the worlds never to repeat their indifference, one which cost millions of lives, including their own."

"The ears of the United Nations must be attuned to the threats of annihilation made by one member of the UN against another. Otherwise, the foundation which holds the UN charter will collapse," Peres said.

Referring to efforts to make the Middle East a nuclear-free zone, the president said that "in order to reach clean skies in the Middle East we must first dismantle the threats of annihilation."

"Weapons of mass destruction in hands capable of destroying masses accompanied by voices calling for such destruction are the combination most perilous to world peace. They turn the world into an uncontrollable place," Peres said.

The President added that he believed that some "parts of the Iranian people are themselves ashamed of the tyranny which has taken hold of it," adding that he thought the Arab states were "aware that Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel incitement is meant to disguise his real aim, which is establishing Iran as a regional power."

"The [Second] World War broke with the Nazis' devilish incitement, claiming that they were a supreme race and Deutschland Uber Alles. We must never return to the beastly conception according to which there is such a thing as a supreme man, or supreme regime, or supreme race which can do whatever it sees fit," Peres said.

Earlier in his speech, President Peres said that with night falling on all of Israel, evening had also fallen "not long ago on Antopol, Zhoromin, Rodnik and Mikhalova, towns that three quarters of their population was was wiped out. Not a single Jew is left."

"Night has fallen on the village of Tostanovitza, where 2,803 Jews were murdered, on Libau in Latvia, where 7,101 Jews were murdered, on Khelm by Lublin from which 15,000 Jews were sent to their death," Peres said, adding that "darkness has also started covering the shadows of Dachau, Auschwitz and Birkenau, as well as Vishnive, where I was born and visited again as an Israeli minister, with not even one wooden beam left from the Jewish homes and the synagogue."

Recalling the trip to his childhood town, Peres said he "visited the well that stood in our backyard. The water did not burn. I drew the bucket to taste the wasters of my childhood, and the water burned in my mouth, the taste of the fire which destroyed the town's people, my family, who remained there."

"This night spread like a mourner's hut on the thousands of communities whose existence became a petrified tombstone, whose people and culture burned to ashes."

A sundown covering the devastated synagogues and shuls, theaters and cultural institutions, the books that were set alight, the schools that turned to ashes. All erased, the lives, the houses, the culture, a world's smoky embers."

"That fire will continue to burn within us, as an impossible farewell to our six million brothers, men, women, and elderly people, to a million and a half of our children, an immense potential of life and talent that was annihilated, an unreturnable loss."

"He who passes today through the town of Zivorov in the Ukraine cannot know that in that place, one summer day in the beginning of 1941, a thousand Jews were shot to death and buried in two pits in the town."

"He who passes today cannot hear the cry of April 9, 1943, when 2,300 Jews were forced to dig their own graves near the Sokolinaya gymnasium. They were murdered and thrown into the pits they dug with their own hands."

"'What shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion?'" asks the Book of Lamentations, and asked the survivors of the ramps in Treblinka, Auschwitz and Birkenau, and asked those who arrived in Israel and immediately enlisted to the defense of the people in their fight for independence."

Also referring to the defense of the Jewish people in light of the lessons learned by the Holocaust, Israel Defense Forces chief Gabi Ashkenazi said earlier Sunday that never again would the Jewish people lack the means to defend themselves.

Speaking at the Yad Vashem memorial, Ashkenazi said the Jewish people "will never again be dependent on the benevolence of others," Ashkenazi said. "Never again will Jewish children be fearful or begging for mercy. Never again will an advocate of evil be able to dictate the future of the Jewish people."

"In the name of my father and his family who fought for a sovereign and independent state and in the name of the millions who were unable to witness the realization of their dream, I stand here today as the commander of the Hebrew defense force, the Israel Defense Forces."

Ashkenazi talked about the experiences of his father, a Holocaust survivor from the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv.

"On the night of March 9th, 1943, my father's family opened their door to find Bulgarian police ordering them to prepare to be deported from Bulgaria within a few hours," Ashkenazi said. "Along with 6,000 other Jews, my father assembled in the yard of the school and recited the prayer 'Shema Yisrael.' In the end, my father and the Jews of Plovdiv were not sent to the death camps. The cancellation of their deportation order arrived when they were already at the train station, a short time before they were supposed to depart.

[tenni]

hardnbubbly
Thank you for posting to this thread. I think that it is very important that we read the thoughts of those of an Arab background. In North America we too frequently hear more about a pro Israel perspective. In Canada, we have a very pro Israel PM. What are your thoughts about why North America hears more pro Israel thoughts in our media than pro Palestine?

[tenni]

Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, a representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday.

hmm ...interesting. Time will tell if any of these groups accept the offer.

[hardnbubbly]

It's hard to say, maybe its because the Arab world is ruled by puppet regimes that do not answer to their people but to the (super)powers that keep in them in place.

When the western world claims they are putting a democracy in place what the people see is bombs falling on their heads and corrupt governments that do not represent their needs. When convenient they prop up a dictator (e.g. Saddam Hussain) and when it stops being convenient they destroy the country. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon have seen it all as well. Lebanon was supposed to be getting a "democratic" pro-western government, how was it rewarded? By Israel bomb the hell out of it. Bombing the infrastructure, bombing everything.

Anyway, what I am trying to say, we have governments that do not represent us in the middle east. Our voice is not heard. However, I think the internet is slowly changing that. At least for the internet connected world.

The other reason is that many of the zionist jews who moved into Israel/Palestine did so from Europe and North America. They spoke the same languages and understood the intricacies of western culture. For Arabs, it is still a foreign culture.

It is also hard to underestimate the effect of an organized PR campaign coming from a sovereign state as opposed to the scattered unorganized message you get from groups supporting Palestinian human rights.

Also, there is quite a bit of media owned by Zionist Jews (I make the distinction since not all Jewish people support the actions of the government of Israel) and media affects a society's perception of reality.

Probably the last reason is strategic political coming from the Cold War days, the U.S. government decided that Israel is probably the best counter balance to the soviet influence. I can only imagine that they had to sell this to the American people one way or another, and probably started the whole Israel is a beacon of democracy vs the savage Arabs argument.



hardnbubbly
Thank you for posting to this thread. I think that it is very important that we read the thoughts of those of an Arab background. In North America we too frequently hear more about a pro Israel perspective. In Canada, we have a very pro Israel PM. What are your thoughts about why North America hears more pro Israel thoughts in our media than pro Palestine?

[TwylaTwobits]

Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, a representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday.

hmm ...interesting. Time will tell if any of these groups accept the offer.

Personally, Tenni, I think any of the groups that do so are foolish. That would just be the catalyst to start a complete Middle Eastern war with the intention of wiping out Israel, one of Iran's main goals.

[darkeyes]

Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. P

Dont know where u got that from..they were forced out or left for fear of their lives.. funny how history seems to read differently from country to country..:( ...and it has been going on since the inception of Israel.. it would have occurred whether or not a warr had happened, maybe a little slower initially but Israel's intention was and remains Israel for the Jews... no one else gets a look in..not Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and certainly not Arab..

[darkeyes]

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.



Would you listen to yourself Twyla.. what do u think Israel has been doing for the last 60 years?

[darkeyes]

if you do not like it, tough !!!!!

the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....

the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission

the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to

but if you really wanna get down and dirty....

what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....

what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....

I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit.....

Yea... right... and piggies fly...

[darkeyes]

now I will explain something

yes I will put all the activists on a ship and sink it.......

the reason is simple and clear..... if they wanna place lives at risk, fine,....I will help them do it..... but I am more than happy to keep them away from innocent people that have no intention of risking life and limb in the name of a peaceful cause

now people see that as shameful and inhumane...... I see it as risk reduction
I reckon that I would have about mmm maybe 10-12 people of the original hundreds on the convoy, on the ship I am going to sink.... cos the rest of the people have enuf brains to know when to speak up and when to shut up

when you have activists like rachel corrie that stand in front of heavy moving machinery, they are a risk to themselves and a danger to others.... and there is a reason why they have warnings about standing in front of heavy moving machinery...... I know what its like, I used to operate heavy moving machinery and I would not like to have on going nightmares cos some stupid person stood in front of my bulldozer and got crushed......

now if anybody wants to still think that my comment is not acceptable, yet the actions of the people on the convoy attacking trained soldiers or standing in front of heavy moving machinery, is a sign of intelligence......... how do you think about going to sea....????

Let me put this straight before you Duckie.. I AM an activist.. I dont sit at home all day and night simply writing futile posts to sites such as this.. I demonstrate and I act..it is the way I was raised and it is the way I live when the need arises.. I have risked arrest on picket lines, been faced with and indeed clattered by police batons and in France by a police riot shield.. I have lain down in front of police and military vehicles more than once and nop doubt shall do that again.. I have stood firm on a peaceful picket line as it has been driven at by vans and lorries.. I act..it puts my life at risk and my comrades put theirs at risk.. I have been struck and kicked, beaten and more than once hurt quite badly.. this also may happen again.. I will not raise my hand to any.. I am a pacifist and I believe in my pacifism absolutely.. what has happened this last week was appalling..we disagree as to who is the most likely guilty party.. no one can escape blame entirely but to blame those on the ship for the loss of life is a travesty.. if I had been on board I would have done what I suspect most did.. stood and awaited my fate.. that some stood up to them and defended themselves by weilding whatever came to hand I have no doubt on that also.. there is some anecdotal evidence that the Israeli's fired early before they were attacked.. unfortunately the video evidence is lying in a vault somewhere in Israel so we can never be entirely sure..

Collateral damage in a struggle is inevitable because of how our societies think and act.. the collateral damage in this case is the death of far too many people and injuries to many more.. no soldiers were killed and believe it or not for that I am thankful.. and not for the reason you may believe.. I just do not believe in the taking of life under any circumstances.. but collateral damage will happen and people will get hurt.. as long as we live in an armed world it will ere be thus.. but while I will never raise my hand to any.. sometimes the cause is just too important not to act and put our lives at risk.. I have done that in my own small way.. that I will do so again is likely.. but it was not the crews and those on board who put lives at risk and certainly did not take any.. that was down to quite another party.. and go to sea? Yes I would do it Duckie.. I love a nice cruise in the sun.. but the Med is also mighty cold in winter.. I have some quite sexy winter gear for that too.. for some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety..

[tenni]

"or some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety.."

I'm not sure at this point in my life if I can make the same statement darkeyes but I too have been more activist if I believe in a cause. This week I am trying to find the courage to go to a meeting and speak out against what I know is an injustice connected to where I live. After standing up for what you believe in time after time is difficult if you do not see results. In particular results for your own body. I commend those who are standing up to Israel as I understand the situation. My first post reference how complex this all is and there are layers of various views that make finding the "truth" difficult.

However, I do not understand how anyone who was not on these ships can post that the activists are to blame. The video images were released by Israel. If you are being attacked and kicked as has been reported by activists who were on the ships, why would you not pick up anything to protect yourself whether it is a piece of wood or metal? I think that it is very irresponsible to make up your mind that the activists were wrong and deserved what they got (killed) at this point in time if ever. We were not there. Those that were there tell a different story. Reports are coming out that gunfire happened before the military had even finished repelling on to the ship. Arguments about what parts of the body were shot (upper torso on those who died) rather than legs. It is reported that those shot in the lower extremities were shot after the ones who died. That is what is being reported and I for one will not decide who is to blame at this point.

It is quite possible that there were radical extremists who support violent methods among the activists though. We just do not know as there was apparently 700 activisits and I would not be surprised that some support radical violent approaches. No proof has been presented yet though. We don't even know which nine people were killed and how they lives as far as protesting this issue. Were any pacifists? Were any radical extremists? I have not read anything about the dead.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, a representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday.

hmm ...interesting. Time will tell if any of these groups accept the offer.

I certainly hope they accept. I'd love to see the RGs get their asses handed to them. Then again, I'd love an excuse to take Iran out of the picture all together.

Pasa

[tenni]

I certainly hope they accept. I'd love to see the RGs get their asses handed to them. Then again, I'd love an excuse to take Iran out of the picture all together.

Pasa

Clean up in aisle 4...that is the warhawk aisle...lol (kid'n Pasa)

[Canticle]

''if you do not like it, tough !!!!!''

Heh, you can't say that! it's usually my line!!!

''the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....''

What do you call weapons?? i think that is they knew that the Israelis were likely to commit an act of piracy and war, upon the high seas.....then anything they had which could be used in a defensive manner.....they had a right to be in possession of.

''the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission''

Since when have commandos......fully armed.....coming down fom helicopters, been known to be about to say ''I say, old bean, do us all a favour and don't resist and then we will be nice chappies to you'' ???????

''the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to''

Why should they trust the israelis to deliver any of the aid? I know I wouldn't.

''but if you really wanna get down and dirty....''

Jolly d

''what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....''

I'm not a great fan of the French, so how did you guess that I have always been extremely critical of them and especially what they did to the Rainbow Warrior. They are as arrogant as the Iraelis.

''what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....''

I know not of this event.....I'll have to look it up....but please......don't mention the Japanese.......some of us have long memories.....about certain 20th century events.

''I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit....''

Hmm, methinks you do..deep down.

[Canticle]

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.


Jerusalem is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Most other 'sacred,' places in the ''holy land,'' are held sacred by the same three religions.

Jerusalem and the surrounding land does not belong to anyone religion or to any chosen nation. there is no chosen nation.

The Papal dynasty is just a continuation of the Roman Emperors. The Roman Empire didn't die.....it judt became politically expedient, to adopt Christianity as the Empire's religion and go on from there.

if it wasn't right for the white man to take land from the native American, then it was not right to force an artificially created state upon the Middle East and drive palestinians from their homelands.....land sacred to them.

[Hephaestion]

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.

If this would bring peace to the area isn't it worth the the effort?

Jersualem is a Holy city of other faiths not just that of the Jews. They could visit just as the muslims visit Mecca in their Haj and Christians visit a church no less Holy because it does not appear in that creation of men, the Bible.

Medina is reputedly the burial site of the Prophet Mohammed. But then everybody has to die somewhere. The name is diminished in that it is used elsewhere. From Wiki.

A medina quarter (Arabic: المدينة القديمة‎) is a distinct city section found in many North African cities. The medina is typically walled, contains many narrow and maze-like streets, and was built by Arabs as far back as the 9th century CE. The word "medina" (or Médina) (Arabic: مدينة‎, madīna) itself simply means "city" or "town" in modern day Arabic.

The Pope is in fact a visitor and not indigenous to the Vatican. Why should it be located in Italy? Headquarters have been moved time and again. Rome moved its headquarters to Contstantinople, The USA moved from Philadelphia to Washington DC, in England it was Salisbury to London. The list is almost endless. The new faiths, commercial companies, do the very same thing at the drop of a hat

"....For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to..." etc

Precisley! This describes the indigenous Arabs correctly whereas the Israelis are largely immigrants in the short term.

The Israelis and theor goofs are the both the problem and the answer in this area. Relocating them could be done in the same way that they visited themselves upon the land they now occupy and that is by lure. Where should they by lured to but the very nation which promoted them to begin with i.e. the USA. In the USA they would be loved and accepted with mutual admiration and there is vast space.

As for Osama disguising himself as the President of the USA - brilliant move. Who would believe it? THe very similar anme would allow small lapses in concentration.

.

[Canticle]

I am cold and heartless cos I am a ex soldier.... I have seen another side to people that the average person doesn't

I am cold and heartless cos I have done counselling and therapy work and seen just how two faced people are

I am cold and heartless cos I have sat in this site and watched people talk about fighting for rights and activism has a side effect, its called collateral damage and tell me I am wrong for my stance on peaceful protest.... then watched people scream about collateral damage when people get killed

the simple fact of the matter is I am not taking any countries side.... I am actually pointing out the double standards of activists and how when they are the victims of their own actions, they refuse to take responsibility, yet they are always holding other people responsible for other peoples actions.....

the simple fact of the matter is activists boarded a convoy with the intention of creating a issue, and what a issue they created......
but are they saying collateral damage ??? hell no.... they are screaming bloody murder cos its their own asses that got handed to them, not some innocent party....( bit like the prom threads when it was fine that all the students lost their prom but that was fine.... but when constance never got her prom the way she wanted....all hell broke loose )....

Sheesh and Sheesh again!!!!

[Canticle]

now I will explain something

yes I will put all the activists on a ship and sink it.......

the reason is simple and clear..... if they wanna place lives at risk, fine,....I will help them do it..... but I am more than happy to keep them away from innocent people that have no intention of risking life and limb in the name of a peaceful cause

now people see that as shameful and inhumane...... I see it as risk reduction
I reckon that I would have about mmm maybe 10-12 people of the original hundreds on the convoy, on the ship I am going to sink.... cos the rest of the people have enuf brains to know when to speak up and when to shut up

when you have activists like rachel corrie that stand in front of heavy moving machinery, they are a risk to themselves and a danger to others.... and there is a reason why they have warnings about standing in front of heavy moving machinery...... I know what its like, I used to operate heavy moving machinery and I would not like to have on going nightmares cos some stupid person stood in front of my bulldozer and got crushed......

now if anybody wants to still think that my comment is not acceptable, yet the actions of the people on the convoy attacking trained soldiers or standing in front of heavy moving machinery, is a sign of intelligence......... how do you think about going to sea....????

Oh....pleeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssseee

[Canticle]

Sure, Israel thinks it deserves the 1967 lands. Keep them, keep them all.. every single inch of the land. However, there are people living there. I wonder, why aren't they citizens? Why is Israel petrified of the one state solution.


You can't have it both ways, you either want the land with the people on it. Or you don't. Stop with the hypocrisy. We live today, 2010, where a Palestinian child born in the same land as an Israeli can die of malnourishment whereas the Israeli lives like any first world country. Tell me what crime did this child do? An Israeli settlement on one of the hilltops in the westbank has 10 times the water resources than palestinian towns and villages down in the valley. They have swimming pools for their kids while the farmers are denied enough water for their farms.

Under what logic is this a democracy that protects human rights??

Well said

[darkeyes]

"or some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety.."

I'm not sure at this point in my life if I can make the same statement darkeyes but I too have been more activist if I believe in a cause. This week I am trying to find the courage to go to a meeting and speak out against what I know is an injustice connected to where I live. After standing up for what you believe in time after time is difficult if you do not see results. In particular results for your own body. I commend those who are standing up to Israel as I understand the situation. My first post reference how complex this all is and there are layers of various views that make finding the "truth" difficult.

However, I do not understand how anyone who was not on these ships can post that the activists are to blame. The video images were released by Israel. If you are being attacked and kicked as has been reported by activists who were on the ships, why would you not pick up anything to protect yourself whether it is a piece of wood or metal? I think that it is very irresponsible to make up your mind that the activists were wrong and deserved what they got (killed) at this point in time if ever. We were not there. Those that were there tell a different story. Reports are coming out that gunfire happened before the military had even finished repelling on to the ship. Arguments about what parts of the body were shot (upper torso on those who died) rather than legs. It is reported that those shot in the lower extremities were shot after the ones who died. That is what is being reported and I for one will not decide who is to blame at this point.

It is quite possible that there were radical extremists who support violent methods among the activists though. We just do not know as there was apparently 700 activisits and I would not be surprised that some support radical violent approaches. No proof has been presented yet though. We don't even know which nine people were killed and how they lives as far as protesting this issue. Were any pacifists? Were any radical extremists? I have not read anything about the dead.

I have said it once. Israel should release unedited to the UN, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent and any other independent body, all the footage filmed by the activists, journalists and anyone else who was aboard the ship immediately prior to the Israel military boarding.. only then after proper analysis will we maybe get to the truth of the matter.. Israel wont do that or anything like it of course.. although it may just be stupid enough to release to the world a very nicely and professionally doctored version of some of it..

About the dead I did notice a headline on the BBC web site this morning prior too leaving home but time prevented me from reading it and I am unable to find it for the moment, so I am as much in the dark as you Tenni..

.. and if I may pick up on something Twyla said in an earlier post about Egypt and the stripping of citizenship of Egyptian men married to Israeli women, I only saw that this evening when I got home. This only pertains to those married to Israeli Jewish women, not those espoused to Israeli Arabs and is every bit as racist as any Israeli law.. many arab states are themselves racist and treat non arabs very badly and it is something of which Islam and the Arab peoples should feel ashamed.. however, they have not blockaded them, and they do not bomb them and drive tanks and bulldozers over them in the main.. I am no supporter of racism from wherever it comes.. but it is not they who are crushing the life out of Gaza and the Palestinians who live there..

[Canticle]

HI Twyla,

I did not mean to belittle your research abilities and so on. But you are 150% aligned with the official Israeli narrative of the story (even Israelis that I talk to don't see things this way). There are two sides to each story and possibly more. Yes Arab armies attacked Israel 60 years ago on its inception. But how about the ordinary people, those that became refugees, those that lost their homes, were separated from their families and were refused to be let back? Many of their villages still lay deserted in Israel. Western countries (including Canada may I say) paying money to Israel to build parks over these villages to erase their memory.

Whatever this history is, there are kids being born today in the West Bank and Gaza. What is their crime? Why are they denied basic human rights? Why are they denied medicine? food? education? Why are the born to the sound of sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets flighing so low over crowded cities? Why are there so many cases of trauma in Palestinian kids?

Let's forget about Palestinians. I am sure they are less than human beings and don't deserve equal human rights. I am curious, how would you explain this: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news...-ramallah.html
Wouldn't an american deserve better treatment?

Again, well said. Unfortunately the link was listed as not available.

[Canticle]

Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.

And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?

How do you know all this. Are you believing israel and your own country's new agencies. Israel is the problem and it;s arrogance and racism.

[Canticle]

Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.

And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?

How do you know all this. How do you know that these activists are bringing in arms for terrorists (what you and your nation and the Israelis call terrorists....but not the Palestinians....) Are you believing Israel and your own country's news agencies. Israel is the problem, with it's arrogance and racism.

What right does Isreal have, to decide how things should and shouldn't be done, how they should and shouldn't be. Why is Israel so innocent and everyone else wrong. Both sides are as bad as one another and you seem to forget, the times Israel has invaded other countries......for it's own welfare.....sounds a bit like a world power who always fight wars to keep that country's freedom.....and never mention the freedoms of other countries

[tenni]

Darkeyes
I know what you intend to mean when your write "racist" but I tend to grit my teeth as Arabs and Jews are of the same race (caucasian). I think that some of us forget that Arabs are Caucasians. In fact, both are also semites as I recall meaning that they speak a semite language as do Aramaeans and many Ethiopians.

I think that you mean bigoted?

I myself am not a semite but I tend to be a semantic... ;) :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes
I know what you intend to mean when your write "racist" but I tend to grit my teeth as Arabs and Jews are of the same race (caucasian). I think that some of us forget that Arabs are Caucasians. In fact, both are also semites as I recall meaning that they speak a semite language as do Aramaeans and many Ethiopians.

I think that you mean bigoted?

I myself am not a semite but I tend to be a semantic... ;) :bigrin:

You poor soul...;) No I mean racist.. in Scots race law to persecute an English person because of their origin is prosecutable.. it is semantic as most Jews around the world have very little semetic blood in them.. and I include those in Israel.. when Rome destroyed the old Jewish Kingdom the people of Israel fled to the four corners of the earth. In 2000 years they so intermixed with other peoples that there is very little of the semite in the vast majority.. and when I talk of Arab racism I talk for instance of the way Pakistani and other people from the Indian sub-continent are treated in Saudi Arabia and Dubai where they are treated appallingly.. and here we are talking of 2 Islamic nations treating their fellow muslims as if they were nothing. That is not semantic...:)

[Canticle]

Twyla,

Being an Arab I tell you that is not true. I know my people and I know the we are an emotional bunch, we get angry, we yell, we scream, but that's as far as we go. In Jordan and Egypt there are Israeli tourists going there. Palestinians in the Westbank (and previously from Gaza) work with Israelis often. The fanatics you are talking about exist on both sides and they are still a minority.

After all, people are people regardless of race, colour, religion, sexual orientation etc. We all want the same basic things: food, shelter, health, education, a hope for a great future for our kids.

I do remember stories my grandfather used to tell about him dating Jewish women in Jerusalem and how they used to live side by side and mix normally like any other place. I wish that they created a state on all of that land for all its people. A secular democratic state where every person is equal regardless of their race, religion, color, etc. Unfortunately the decision was made to create a state for jews only. By definition a state that is only for a single religion is not an equal state. Such a state grants more rights to a jewish kid born in New York that has never stepped foot in that land, than a Palestinian kid born on that land and whose grandparents lived on this land.

We live in a depressing world dont' we.

Well said again. You are right, the country should have been one for all people, whatever their race or religion and a secular state, at that.

[darkeyes]

I spoke to my father this evening after we got home from Cumbria. We were discussing this whole issue and both were incensed about how Israel has the temerity (in our view) to claim innocence.. my dad then said to me "Do you know what all this reminds me off? Orgreave."

Now this may not seem to have anything to do with Gaza and it doesnt really.. but it is a salutory lesson about truth and something for people to think about.. my dad was at Orgreave when Thatcher sent in thousands of police to crush a picket and demonstration at the colliery during the miner's strike in 1984. Outnumbered something like 2 to 1 there was a running battle as the police attacked the protesting miners. It was brutal and nasty and many were hurt. The media of the time portrayed it as miners running amok and the barve police hard pushed to contain their insanity..televison pictures of the time were headlined in much the same way..yet time and evidence and the fact that prosecuted miners were aquitted of wrong doing and the authorities themselves were put in the dock of public scrutiny and condemned...

This is a link to an article published in the Guardian in 2006 which Dad sent me, and better and more eloquently makes my point...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2006/sep/04/features5

[tenni]

You poor soul...;) No I mean racist.. in Scots race law to persecute an English person because of their origin is prosecutable.. it is semantic as most Jews around the world have very little semetic blood in them.. and I include those in Israel.. when Rome destroyed the old Jewish Kingdom the people of Israel fled to the four corners of the earth. In 2000 years they so intermixed with other peoples that there is very little of the semite in the vast majority.. and when I talk of Arab racism I talk for instance of the way Pakistani and other people from the Indian sub-continent are treated in Saudi Arabia and Dubai where they are treated appallingly.. and here we are talking of 2 Islamic nations treating their fellow muslims as if they were nothing. That is not semantic...:)

"poor soul"...flips pages ....finds...."cheeky wanker"...reads meaning...nope that's not it...flips more pages......"cheeky tart"...yes..that is the wording...closes semantic book :)

Well, some argue that there is no such thing as "race" Semite is not a genetic breakdown...remember I wrote "language" ( or should have) Both Arabs and Jews speak a Semite language (grouping) and that makes them both Semites. Sorta like the Scots, Irish, English, Canucks, Yanks, Aussies, NZ kiwis belong to the same Language group of English...

ta ta :bigrin:

[Canticle]

It's an analogy. Hits a nerve doesn't it. I guess you do think Americans are worth more than Palestinians.

Btw, terrorists are a tiny minority. There are many ordinary people living in Gaza.

And btw, Israel in the past has considered it its right to attack any country imposing a blockade on it. Did someone change the rules suddenly? Wouldn't the logic apply to Gaza.

HUGE DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a supporter of violent resistance. Just pointing out a flaw in the logic used

Are you surprised at the responses?

[Canticle]

Really? Then tell that to all the documented speeches of leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan. Since they are ones calling for extermination of the Jewish nation.

Round and round

[Canticle]

Egypt, Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, so you got that completely off.

Palestinian leaders are in negotiation with Israel so this one is also wrong.

Syria and Iraq are part of the Arab league and they are part of the Pan-Arab peace offer to Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Plus, there is no such country as Palestine, it does not exist at the moment. All palestinian territories are occupied.


Btw... if Arabs are such monsters I wonder how there are bus loads of tourists entering Jordan everyday from Israel?

Well said

[darkeyes]

"poor soul"...flips pages ....finds...."cheeky wanker"...reads meaning...nope that's not it...flips more pages......"cheeky tart"...yes..that is the wording...closes semantic book :)

Well, some argue that there is no such thing as "race" Semite is not a genetic breakdown...remember I wrote "language" ( or should have) Both Arabs and Jews speak a Semite language (grouping) and that makes them both Semites. Sorta like the Scots, Irish, English, Canucks, Yanks, Aussies, NZ kiwis belong to the same Language group of English...

ta ta :bigrin:

Actually I agree there is only one race and it doesnt matter our colour or our origin..we are all human.. however race is an easy way if not entirely accurate of outlining the differences between peoples and the discrimination of different groups of them.. unfortuantely..we are in the minority I think.. or it wouldnt bloody happen..

[Canticle]

I said documented speeches as in anyone who has called for Jihad or extermination of the Jewish nation. Right now the loudest screaming is Iran and they want nuclear weapons to blow Israel off the map, never mind the people in Gaza that might not survive the blow and definitely wouldn't survive the radiation. Or any of the other close Arab countries that will suffer should Iran send a nuclear bomb into Israel.

So how about you take a look at a few things...


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11583

http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyahu-world-is-gradually-accepting-iran-s-extermination-calls-1.284045

Twyla you appear...from where I am sitting, to be repeating rhetoric, which you have read, or heard.

The first link...very interesting. I almost, fully agree with what was said there.

The second was Israeli propaganda and concentrated.....for the most part, on talking about the holocaust. NO ONE will ever say that the holocaust and the genocide of Jews and Gypsies and other people, should not be remembered. It has to be. But there comes a time when the past should be something to learn from and not be continually used to show just how special a people may be. There was genocide in Yugoslavia....recently....with Muslims being massacred. It doesn't matter what the race, creed or colour, of people, is....for we are all important. Jews do not have the copyright on mass murder and persecution. It has happened time and time again, to many peoples...all over the world.

[Canticle]

The world changes e.g. The IRA signed a peace treaty in Ireland.

At present, Israel has an unprecedented peace offer from the Arab world. It chooses to ignore it.

And btw, the only state in the middle east to hold nuclear weapons is Israel itself.

The second URL you posted doesn't work.


Again, well said.

[Hephaestion]

Beware - Yugoslavia is not the simple story it appears.

.

[Canticle]

Works fine for me me but I'll post the article it links to

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday called on the world "to confront Iran's exterminatory intentions and act resolutely to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons."

Netanyahu spoke at the state ceremony on the eve of the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.

"The historic failure of free societies to confront the Nazi beast was that they did not face it in time," Netanyahu said. "And today we are witness to the old hatred of Jews once again, fueled by extremist Islamic authorities, led by Iran and its satellites."

"Iran's leadership is racing to develop nuclear weapons and declares its intention to destroy Israel. The world is gradually accepting Iran's exterminatory declarations regarding Israel and still we do not see the international determination required to stop the arming of Iran. But if we learned something from the Holocaust, it is that we cannot remain quiet or flinch in the face of evil."

Earlier in the ceremony, President Shimon Peres said the world must not repeat its indifference at the face of new cries for the destruction of the Jewish people.

Peres went on to say that "Israel will never forget the two decrees which the Holocaust enforced."

"The firm demand to sustain an independent Jewish state, one that holds its security in its own hands while at the same time tirelessly seeking peace as well as the demand to treat threats of annihilation, Holocaust denials, and terror mongering with the utmost severity."

Referring to comments made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has threatened to "wipe the Zionist regime off the map," Peres said that it was Israel's right "and duty to demand the nations of the worlds never to repeat their indifference, one which cost millions of lives, including their own."

"The ears of the United Nations must be attuned to the threats of annihilation made by one member of the UN against another. Otherwise, the foundation which holds the UN charter will collapse," Peres said.

Referring to efforts to make the Middle East a nuclear-free zone, the president said that "in order to reach clean skies in the Middle East we must first dismantle the threats of annihilation."

"Weapons of mass destruction in hands capable of destroying masses accompanied by voices calling for such destruction are the combination most perilous to world peace. They turn the world into an uncontrollable place," Peres said.

The President added that he believed that some "parts of the Iranian people are themselves ashamed of the tyranny which has taken hold of it," adding that he thought the Arab states were "aware that Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel incitement is meant to disguise his real aim, which is establishing Iran as a regional power."

"The [Second] World War broke with the Nazis' devilish incitement, claiming that they were a supreme race and Deutschland Uber Alles. We must never return to the beastly conception according to which there is such a thing as a supreme man, or supreme regime, or supreme race which can do whatever it sees fit," Peres said.

Earlier in his speech, President Peres said that with night falling on all of Israel, evening had also fallen "not long ago on Antopol, Zhoromin, Rodnik and Mikhalova, towns that three quarters of their population was was wiped out. Not a single Jew is left."

"Night has fallen on the village of Tostanovitza, where 2,803 Jews were murdered, on Libau in Latvia, where 7,101 Jews were murdered, on Khelm by Lublin from which 15,000 Jews were sent to their death," Peres said, adding that "darkness has also started covering the shadows of Dachau, Auschwitz and Birkenau, as well as Vishnive, where I was born and visited again as an Israeli minister, with not even one wooden beam left from the Jewish homes and the synagogue."

Recalling the trip to his childhood town, Peres said he "visited the well that stood in our backyard. The water did not burn. I drew the bucket to taste the wasters of my childhood, and the water burned in my mouth, the taste of the fire which destroyed the town's people, my family, who remained there."

"This night spread like a mourner's hut on the thousands of communities whose existence became a petrified tombstone, whose people and culture burned to ashes."

A sundown covering the devastated synagogues and shuls, theaters and cultural institutions, the books that were set alight, the schools that turned to ashes. All erased, the lives, the houses, the culture, a world's smoky embers."

"That fire will continue to burn within us, as an impossible farewell to our six million brothers, men, women, and elderly people, to a million and a half of our children, an immense potential of life and talent that was annihilated, an unreturnable loss."

"He who passes today through the town of Zivorov in the Ukraine cannot know that in that place, one summer day in the beginning of 1941, a thousand Jews were shot to death and buried in two pits in the town."

"He who passes today cannot hear the cry of April 9, 1943, when 2,300 Jews were forced to dig their own graves near the Sokolinaya gymnasium. They were murdered and thrown into the pits they dug with their own hands."

"'What shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion?'" asks the Book of Lamentations, and asked the survivors of the ramps in Treblinka, Auschwitz and Birkenau, and asked those who arrived in Israel and immediately enlisted to the defense of the people in their fight for independence."

Also referring to the defense of the Jewish people in light of the lessons learned by the Holocaust, Israel Defense Forces chief Gabi Ashkenazi said earlier Sunday that never again would the Jewish people lack the means to defend themselves.

Speaking at the Yad Vashem memorial, Ashkenazi said the Jewish people "will never again be dependent on the benevolence of others," Ashkenazi said. "Never again will Jewish children be fearful or begging for mercy. Never again will an advocate of evil be able to dictate the future of the Jewish people."

"In the name of my father and his family who fought for a sovereign and independent state and in the name of the millions who were unable to witness the realization of their dream, I stand here today as the commander of the Hebrew defense force, the Israel Defense Forces."

Ashkenazi talked about the experiences of his father, a Holocaust survivor from the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv.

"On the night of March 9th, 1943, my father's family opened their door to find Bulgarian police ordering them to prepare to be deported from Bulgaria within a few hours," Ashkenazi said. "Along with 6,000 other Jews, my father assembled in the yard of the school and recited the prayer 'Shema Yisrael.' In the end, my father and the Jews of Plovdiv were not sent to the death camps. The cancellation of their deportation order arrived when they were already at the train station, a short time before they were supposed to depart.

Israeli propaganda

[TwylaTwobits]

What you stated with your analogy was not what you just said. There is no comparison to running away (If enough notice is given) from a natural disaster and running from a war. Losing a war leaves you with your home occupied by the victors and suffering a natural disaster leaves you with a mess to clean up when it's over.

You continue to say that not all the people of Gaza are terrorists, I never said all the people there are. But apparently enough of them are there that they have a steady supply of rockets to fire into Israel. That is why Israel has the right to inspect the "aid" that is coming in and reject anything that could be used for insurgence. They have no problem letting in food, blankets, medicine and clothing, they have a problem with the idea that they should allow a ship to just sail into that port and offload whatever. Put yourself in their shoes for one moment, your next door neighbor is barricaded by you from the rest of world because of his threat to kill you. You inspect any aid going in but you would not allow a gun and ammo or the means to make a bomb to go in now would you? If you would, then you are a bigger fool than the fool who threatens to wipe out a nation in the name of religion.

Since you're so quote happy, why didn't you answer the question?

[Canticle]

It's hard to say, maybe its because the Arab world is ruled by puppet regimes that do not answer to their people but to the (super)powers that keep in them in place.

When the western world claims they are putting a democracy in place what the people see is bombs falling on their heads and corrupt governments that do not represent their needs. When convenient they prop up a dictator (e.g. Saddam Hussain) and when it stops being convenient they destroy the country. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon have seen it all as well. Lebanon was supposed to be getting a "democratic" pro-western government, how was it rewarded? By Israel bomb the hell out of it. Bombing the infrastructure, bombing everything.

Anyway, what I am trying to say, we have governments that do not represent us in the middle east. Our voice is not heard. However, I think the internet is slowly changing that. At least for the internet connected world.

The other reason is that many of the zionist jews who moved into Israel/Palestine did so from Europe and North America. They spoke the same languages and understood the intricacies of western culture. For Arabs, it is still a foreign culture.

It is also hard to underestimate the effect of an organized PR campaign coming from a sovereign state as opposed to the scattered unorganized message you get from groups supporting Palestinian human rights.

Also, there is quite a bit of media owned by Zionist Jews (I make the distinction since not all Jewish people support the actions of the government of Israel) and media affects a society's perception of reality.

Probably the last reason is strategic political coming from the Cold War days, the U.S. government decided that Israel is probably the best counter balance to the soviet influence. I can only imagine that they had to sell this to the American people one way or another, and probably started the whole Israel is a beacon of democracy vs the savage Arabs argument.

Yes, I would like to thank you too. You have said some very intelligent things and in a calm manner. it does no good to believe propaganda and keep going on about the evils of the Arab and non Arab Muslim States (I have a feeling that some people think that all Muslims in the general Middle Eastern area, are Arabs). the Isaraeli state is a much to blame as any other country in the area.

Thank you...once again

[Canticle]

Personally, Tenni, I think any of the groups that do so are foolish. That would just be the catalyst to start a complete Middle Eastern war with the intention of wiping out Israel, one of Iran's main goals.

Sheesh

[Canticle]

Dont know where u got that from..they were forced out or left for fear of their lives.. funny how history seems to read differently from country to country..:( ...and it has been going on since the inception of Israel.. it would have occurred whether or not a warr had happened, maybe a little slower initially but Israel's intention was and remains Israel for the Jews... no one else gets a look in..not Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and certainly not Arab..

Well said

[Canticle]

Would you listen to yourself Twyla.. what do u think Israel has been doing for the last 60 years?

Well said

[Canticle]

Let me put this straight before you Duckie.. I AM an activist.. I dont sit at home all day and night simply writing futile posts to sites such as this.. I demonstrate and I act..it is the way I was raised and it is the way I live when the need arises.. I have risked arrest on picket lines, been faced with and indeed clattered by police batons and in France by a police riot shield.. I have lain down in front of police and military vehicles more than once and nop doubt shall do that again.. I have stood firm on a peaceful picket line as it has been driven at by vans and lorries.. I act..it puts my life at risk and my comrades put theirs at risk.. I have been struck and kicked, beaten and more than once hurt quite badly.. this also may happen again.. I will not raise my hand to any.. I am a pacifist and I believe in my pacifism absolutely.. what has happened this last week was appalling..we disagree as to who is the most likely guilty party.. no one can escape blame entirely but to blame those on the ship for the loss of life is a travesty.. if I had been on board I would have done what I suspect most did.. stood and awaited my fate.. that some stood up to them and defended themselves by weilding whatever came to hand I have no doubt on that also.. there is some anecdotal evidence that the Israeli's fired early before they were attacked.. unfortunately the video evidence is lying in a vault somewhere in Israel so we can never be entirely sure..

Collateral damage in a struggle is inevitable because of how our societies think and act.. the collateral damage in this case is the death of far too many people and injuries to many more.. no soldiers were killed and believe it or not for that I am thankful.. and not for the reason you may believe.. I just do not believe in the taking of life under any circumstances.. but collateral damage will happen and people will get hurt.. as long as we live in an armed world it will ere be thus.. but while I will never raise my hand to any.. sometimes the cause is just too important not to act and put our lives at risk.. I have done that in my own small way.. that I will do so again is likely.. but it was not the crews and those on board who put lives at risk and certainly did not take any.. that was down to quite another party.. and go to sea? Yes I would do it Duckie.. I love a nice cruise in the sun.. but the Med is also mighty cold in winter.. I have some quite sexy winter gear for that too.. for some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety..

Smiles. With respect and pride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHgVnwAfB0Y

And to other than Fran, don't think Communism or socialism...think of a flag soaked red with the blood of the innocent, or the brave, those fighting for right, those fighting for what they believe in, those fighting and dying for their country, in wars they did not begin.

[Pasadenacpl2]

When 3/4 of your posts consist of "well said" and the rest are Anti-semetic claptrap, you become less and less relevant. And, no, I am not interested in your word games. If you wish me to simply call you a racist jew hater, I can do that too.
But, your rhetoric goes beyond simply discussing world events. You use similar phraseology and tone to those who were trying to drive anti Jew fears in the 30s.

If I ever read you decrying racism again, I wil call you out as a hypocrite.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I certainly hope they accept. I'd love to see the RGs get their asses handed to them. Then again, I'd love an excuse to take Iran out of the picture all together.

Pasa


Oh, please...how distasteful are you going to get and you claim to be a Christian. This is the sort of thing, which reads as if it is something coming from the fingers of the brainwashed.

[Canticle]

Beware - Yugoslavia is not the simple story it appears.

.

Maybe not Heph and goodness we know that Eastern Europe has been a boiling cauldron, bubbling away and then spilling over, on many occasions, but Muslims were massacred, men were put in ''camps,'' and we have all seen film of them, stick thin, starving. There are always two sides to any argument, but massacred they were.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Oh, please...how distasteful are you going to get and you claim to be a Christian. This is the sort of thing, which reads as if it is something coming from the fingers of the brainwashed.

What is distasteful is your racism.

Apparently anything/body that disagrees with you is either propoganda or brainwashing. How convenient.

Pasa

[Canticle]

When 3/4 of your posts consist of "well said" and the rest are Anti-semetic claptrap, you become less and less relevant. And, no, I am not interested in your word games. If you wish me to simply call you a racist jew hater, I can do that too.
But, your rhetoric goes beyond simply discussing world

\if a events. You use similar phraseology and tone to those who were trying to drive anti Jew fears in the 30s.

If I ever read you decrying racism again, I wil call you out as a hypocrite.

Pasa

If a post says everything that i would have said and that I agreee with, I see no point in doing anything but agreeing with those points and my way of saying that is to post ''well said.'' Are you trying to tell me how to post?

How dare you accuse me of being a Jew hater and of being anti-semitic (get the spelling correct) How dare you day that I use ''similar phraseology and tone to those who were driving anti Jew fears in the 30s.''

I am no hypocrite and if Gaza was inhabited by jews and the Israeli state was called Palestine. I would be just as critical of that state. It seems to me that you are the one spouting religious and racial intolerance, by wanting to wipe Islam off the face of the earth and given the chance, you would bomb Iran out of all existence.

You apologise to me....for if you call me anti semitic, once more, I will report you to Drew.

[TwylaTwobits]

If a post says everything that i would have said and that I agreee with, I see no point in doing anything but agreeing with those points and my way of saying that is to post ''well said.'' Are you trying to tell me how to post?

How dare you accuse me of being a Jew hater and of being anti-semitic (get the spelling correct) How dare you day that I use ''similar phraseology and tone to those who were driving anti Jew fears in the 30s.''

I am no hypocrite and if Gaza was inhabited by jews and the Israeli state was called Palestine. I would be just as critical of that state. It seems to me that you are the one spouting religious and racial intolerance, by wanting to wipe Islam off the face of the earth and given the chance, you would bomb Iran out of all existence.

You apologise to me....for if you call me anti semitic, once more, I will report you to Drew.

You know what, I gave you a chance. You again declined to answer the question posed in post 228. So on ignore you go and you are a fine one to talk about reporting to Drew, BrotherJack. Goodbye Canticle. Ignore.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I will not. You go ahead and report me. I find your words and ideas to be distasteful and hate filled. I supprt your right to say them, however.

You go report me to Drew. I guess when you can't dismiss people, silencing them is the next best thing, eh?

And if you can show me where I've been racsist, yu go right ahead. Being against states that sponsor terrr isn't racsist. It's smart. I will want to see Iran defeated. I feel thay way about nations whose leadrrs call for the extermination of the Jews an the eradication of the US. Show me an Iran that isn't saying those things and it will cease to be the first country I take out when playing Risk.

Pasa

[Canticle]

You know what, I gave you a chance. You again declined to answer the question posed in post 228. So on ignore you go and you are a fine one to talk about reporting to Drew, BrotherJack. Goodbye Canticle. Ignore.

In what way did you give ME a chance, Twyla? In what way did I decline to answer the question posed in post 228? In post 228 you were quoting Hardhubby, not me, so I would have thought that it was obvious, that your remark was addressed to him. It certainly was not addressed to me.

My name is Canticle and like you I am straight and like you I came here because of someone I knew. I stayed and return, to talk to the people I have grown to like, not because of their sexuality, but because of who those people are. Good and kind people. It is very sad that some people decide, that what they don't want to see, or hear, they will ignore.

I have never, in my time upon this site, called anyone terrible names, told lies, insulted beliefs, be they religious or political and I have never insulted anyone because of their sexuality or race. I have taken some people to task, as we all have the right to do, but it seems that some may consider they have more rights than others.

Some of us disagree with you Twyla and not only with you, upon this particular subject. On other subjects, we would stand shoulder to shoulder with you.

I am no racist. I am not anti-semitic. Am I supposed to just take being called that? I guess you think I should.

And the crack about the name BrotherJack, was uncalled for. I never did anything wrong, when using that name, except, perhaps, word my posts, in too emotional a manner. As Canticle, a name which suits both my character and my outlook upon life, I have made sure that I word things carefully.....even if a reply is only ''well said.''

I am disappointed by your reaction, Twyla, especially as the post you answered was not mine. However, it's not my problem. I will always answer a question, where I can. If I can't I'll say so.

[Long Duck Dong]

Let me put this straight before you Duckie.. I AM an activist.. I dont sit at home all day and night simply writing futile posts to sites such as this.. I demonstrate and I act..it is the way I was raised and it is the way I live when the need arises.. I have risked arrest on picket lines, been faced with and indeed clattered by police batons and in France by a police riot shield.. I have lain down in front of police and military vehicles more than once and nop doubt shall do that again.. I have stood firm on a peaceful picket line as it has been driven at by vans and lorries.. I act..it puts my life at risk and my comrades put theirs at risk.. I have been struck and kicked, beaten and more than once hurt quite badly.. this also may happen again.. I will not raise my hand to any.. I am a pacifist and I believe in my pacifism absolutely.. what has happened this last week was appalling..we disagree as to who is the most likely guilty party.. no one can escape blame entirely but to blame those on the ship for the loss of life is a travesty.. if I had been on board I would have done what I suspect most did.. stood and awaited my fate.. that some stood up to them and defended themselves by weilding whatever came to hand I have no doubt on that also.. there is some anecdotal evidence that the Israeli's fired early before they were attacked.. unfortunately the video evidence is lying in a vault somewhere in Israel so we can never be entirely sure..

Collateral damage in a struggle is inevitable because of how our societies think and act.. the collateral damage in this case is the death of far too many people and injuries to many more.. no soldiers were killed and believe it or not for that I am thankful.. and not for the reason you may believe.. I just do not believe in the taking of life under any circumstances.. but collateral damage will happen and people will get hurt.. as long as we live in an armed world it will ere be thus.. but while I will never raise my hand to any.. sometimes the cause is just too important not to act and put our lives at risk.. I have done that in my own small way.. that I will do so again is likely.. but it was not the crews and those on board who put lives at risk and certainly did not take any.. that was down to quite another party.. and go to sea? Yes I would do it Duckie.. I love a nice cruise in the sun.. but the Med is also mighty cold in winter.. I have some quite sexy winter gear for that too.. for some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety..

right.... now check this out sea shepard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society)

they are a anti whaling activist group that * gasp *... pride themselves on sinking ships, in harbour or out in the ocean.....

I talk about sinking ships and omg, its shameful and inhuman.... yet, here is a activist group doing the same bloody thing and people support them for doing it......
I guess it comes down to the reason you wanna sink a ship as to if its right or not......

now I do not disagree over who is responsibile for the 9 deaths.... personally I think that both parties were wrong..... BUT........

the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment

the aid shipment would have been transfered etc..... but no.... the activists are victims, the israelis are wrong yadda, yadda, yadda, ....and yet it could have all been avoided.... if the activists had just sailed to port like asked

[TwylaTwobits]

WARNING MIGHT OFFEND



A video a friend sent me in email. I am not claiming they are right for the words they put to the song but it certainly gives a different look, included is clips of the footage we have all seen. These people didn't hide who they were, their names are attached at the end of the vid complete with it showing which person is which. So watch it and watch them throwing the soldier over the side of the ship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

[Canticle]

right.... now check this out sea shepard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society)

they are a anti whaling activist group that * gasp *... pride themselves on sinking ships, in harbour or out in the ocean.....

I talk about sinking ships and omg, its shameful and inhuman.... yet, here is a activist group doing the same bloody thing and people support them for doing it......
I guess it comes down to the reason you wanna sink a ship as to if its right or not......

now I do not disagree over who is responsibile for the 9 deaths.... personally I think that both parties were wrong..... BUT........

the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment

the aid shipment would have been transfered etc..... but no.... the activists are victims, the israelis are wrong yadda, yadda, yadda, ....and yet it could have all been avoided.... if the activists had just sailed to port like asked

I deplore the hunting of whales, the killing of baby seals, or the hunting of any wildlife and do applaud many of the animal activists, who fight, peacefully, against these things happening. I do agree with you that where an organisation of such activists, becomes violent (and this has happened in my locality), causing damage and possible danger to human life, this has to be deplored. However, such an organisation is not a sovereign state and I do believe that as such, their behaviour cannot be compared.

''the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment''

If the activists were hoping to deliver humanitarian aid and not arms, to Gaza, how could they have been trying to break a UN sanctioned blockage. Surely there is a difference between checking the cargo, of any ship and sending in armed commandos, who land from helicopters. Many countries carry out peaceful searches of ships' cargo, without resorting to the use of commandos.

[Long Duck Dong]

I deplore the hunting of whales, the killing of baby seals, or the hunting of any wildlife and do applaud many of the animal activists, who fight, peacefully, against these things happening. I do agree with you that where an organisation of such activists, becomes violent (and this has happened in my locality), causing damage and possible danger to human life, this has to be deplored. However, such an organisation is not a sovereign state and I do believe that as such, their behaviour cannot be compared.

''the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment''

If the activists were hoping to deliver humanitarian aid and not arms, to Gaza, how could they have been trying to break a UN sanctioned blockage. Surely there is a difference between checking the cargo, of any ship and sending in armed commandos, who land from helicopters. Many countries carry out peaceful searches of ships' cargo, without resorting to the use of commandos.

gee let me think..... maybe, israel wanted to check the cargo in port, hence they said bring the ship into port please....

the activists said, no thank you, we have a stand to make cos we are activists and activists need to make stands to look good in the eyes of the rest of the world

the israelis replied, well see, this is the issue, we have no proof that you are on a humanitarian mission, you have activists on board, you are refusing to stop and go to port, you intend to break thru a un sanctioned blockage and we can not check the cargo unless you go to port.....

the activists replied, gee well you see, we are activists, we do not know the meaning of go to port and not risk people, we only understand things like ignore naval ships that are carrying armed soldiers and placing ourselves and others at risk....

the israelis replied, well now, we are gonna lay around of bullets cross ya bow and if you refuse to stop, we will board you and take you into port...and since you are on a peace mission, there should be no issues....

the activists replied, no, we are activists, you board us, we will cry and stamp our feet and proclaim to the world how cruel and unfair that you are, and the un sanction doesn't apply to activists as we beleive we are exempt from rules and intelligent thinking and yes we are peaceful but happy to use force and place people at risk.... so board us if you want, we will act in a unpeaceful manner with weapons even tho we are on a peaceful mission..... btw, you stop us this time, we will be back again and again, with more ships cos we want to do things our way, it looks better on our resume....

the israelis replied, ok we are boarding you since you are peaceful but refusing to stop or go to port

activists replied, ok we are ready to be boarded, we are peacefully waiting with weapons, we have our video cams at the ready so we can claim victim status and we have CNN on speed dial so that way we can get max media attention..... btw can you please torture us for a few weeks and detain us for a couple of years, it makes for better conversation starters



gee canticle.... you tell me...... how the fuck do you check a few 100 ton of cargo in holds in 7 ocean going ships cos most of the important agencies can not do it, they require a ship in port
and most ships would head to port for a cargo check if they had nothing to hide anyway.....

unless you are activists with a agenda.....

[Canticle]

WARNING MIGHT OFFEND



A video a friend sent me in email. I am not claiming they are right for the words they put to the song but it certainly gives a different look, included is clips of the footage we have all seen. These people didn't hide who they were, their names are attached at the end of the vid complete with it showing which person is which. So watch it and watch them throwing the soldier over the side of the ship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg


Yeah, saw that last night. Found it so distasteful and mocking and so conveniently and quickly arranged and videoed, that I decided, I would like to forget about it.

How can the snippets of video, obviously carefully edited, say anything about what happened, other than that the people on the boat looked desperate and scared, I don't know.

Soldiers could be seen coming down ropes, some of the people reacted and fought back and the same thing could have happened if the commandos, of any country had done the same thing.

As for the soldier being thrown from the deck. Well. when this sort of event happens and people feel the need to fight back, it's the kind of thing that happens.

The people involved in that song, should be ashamed of themselves and their mockery. They are not a good advertisement for Judaism or Israel.

[tenni]

"UN security council resolution 1860"
That is interesting. I didn't recall this but I googled it and what I found did not state anything about a blockade?

"The Resolution called for "an immediate ceasefire in Gaza leading to a full Israeli withdrawal, unimpeded provision through Gaza of food, fuel and medical treatment, and intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling." All members stressed the importance of an "immediate and durable ceasefire".
Ultimately, the resolution was unsuccessful as both Israel and Hamas ignored it and the fighting continued."

What I found on a UN ? website was the reaction to last week's incident.

At an earlier meeting Monday afternoon, Oscar Fernandez-Taranco, Assistant Secretary-General for Political Affairs, briefed the Council on the incident, reporting that Israeli naval forces had boarded a six-ship convoy, which had been heading towards Gaza. The stated purpose of the convoy was to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza and to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza, he said, making clear the United Nations has “no independent information on what transpired”.....n Mr. Fernandez Taranco’s view, today’s bloodshed would have been avoided if repeated calls on Israel to end the counterproductive and unacceptable blockade of Gaza had been heeded.

I found no UN motion supporting Israel blockading Gaza? I found UN motions opposing the blockade. Please clarify.

[Canticle]

gee let me think..... maybe, israel wanted to check the cargo in port, hence they said bring the ship into port please....

the activists said, no thank you, we have a stand to make cos we are activists and activists need to make stands to look good in the eyes of the rest of the world

the israelis replied, well see, this is the issue, we have no proof that you are on a humanitarian mission, you have activists on board, you are refusing to stop and go to port, you intend to break thru a un sanctioned blockage and we can not check the cargo unless you go to port.....

the activists replied, gee well you see, we are activists, we do not know the meaning of go to port and not risk people, we only understand things like ignore naval ships that are carrying armed soldiers and placing ourselves and others at risk....

the israelis replied, well now, we are gonna lay around of bullets cross ya bow and if you refuse to stop, we will board you and take you into port...and since you are on a peace mission, there should be no issues....

the activists replied, no, we are activists, you board us, we will cry and stamp our feet and proclaim to the world how cruel and unfair that you are, and the un sanction doesn't apply to activists as we beleive we are exempt from rules and intelligent thinking and yes we are peaceful but happy to use force and place people at risk.... so board us if you want, we will act in a unpeaceful manner with weapons even tho we are on a peaceful mission..... btw, you stop us this time, we will be back again and again, with more ships cos we want to do things our way, it looks better on our resume....

the israelis replied, ok we are boarding you since you are peaceful but refusing to stop or go to port

activists replied, ok we are ready to be boarded, we are peacefully waiting with weapons, we have our video cams at the ready so we can claim victim status and we have CNN on speed dial so that way we can get max media attention..... btw can you please torture us for a few weeks and detain us for a couple of years, it makes for better conversation starters



gee canticle.... you tell me...... how the fuck do you check a few 100 ton of cargo in holds in 7 ocean going ships cos most of the important agencies can not do it, they require a ship in port
and most ships would head to port for a cargo check if they had nothing to hide anyway.....

unless you are activists with a agenda.....

Well, Gee LDD, I have watched footage of British officials checking a ships' cargo and on the high seas. And heck...it's not as if it was that big a ship. And maybe the people on the aid ship.....I am not going to call them activists.....didn't feel that they could trust the Israelis.

This goes around in circles and keeps coming back to the same things again and again. I get told I didn't answer a question, when it wasn't my post being replied to, I get called a racist and anti-semitic (which I am not), by someone who has made, what I would call, racially intolerant and rather un-Christian remarks about Islam and ridding the world of it and getting rid of Iran, but somehow that is meant to be OK and people are not meant to criticise the State of Israel.

The current problems in the Middle east, began a long time ago. I guess the fledgling UN could be blamed, but the people who made decisions back then, are long gone.....but the problems caused by their decisions and actions, go on and on.

When I was at school, I had Christian (meaning Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jevohahs Witness), Hindu, Sikh, Muslim friends. We all got along together. Another of my friends was part Indian. I had friends with no belief at all...no religion. We got on. The ones who kept themselves to themselves, most of the time, but not always, were the black girls and the Jewish girls. Now we never thought of this as a racial thing. even at 14, 15, 16. I think we saw it as more of a cultural thing. we still got on. If only the world was like that.

That is why, to be called racist and anti-semitic, is an insult. I've known truly racist people and the comments they make are vile. We all may find things which we disapprove about, in any religion or culture, but this does not make us full of hate.

I know someone who detests Islam and I am pretty sure that person feels the same way about Arabs, even though it's not just Arabs, who are Muslim. Some of the things that person says are so intolerant, it shocked me and their views on faith of any sort can be pretty insulting. I've disagreed with people of all religions, but never insulted their personal belief...but I have had so called intellectually superior atheists call me delusional and mad and requiring treatment......just because I have beliefs and I have seen the same insults poured out to others. Strange thing is...I'd never insult an atheist and their disbelief.

Wishing that Islam could be wiped from the face of the earth is wrong. Saying one would like to see a certain country bombed out of existence is wrong. Being anti-semitic, or racist, is wrong, but it is not wrong to call the state of Israel out on much of it's behaviour. And it is not right for a world power to side with Israel and almost never criticise it. It seems that people from across the pond, almost take it as a personal insult, if the state of Israel is criticised. That kind of reaction, I frankly find rather crazy.

OK...LDD...I've gone off at a tangent....but what the heck.....people seem to have selective reading anyways.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, Gee LDD, I have watched footage of British officials checking a ships' cargo and on the high seas. And heck...it's not as if it was that big a ship. And maybe the people on the aid ship.....I am not going to call them activists.....didn't feel that they could trust the Israelis.

This goes around in circles and keeps coming back to the same things again and again. I get told I didn't answer a question, when it wasn't my post being replied to, I get called a racist and anti-semitic (which I am not), by someone who has made, what I would call, racially intolerant and rather un-Christian remarks about Islam and ridding the world of it and getting rid of Iran, but somehow that is meant to be OK and people are not meant to criticise the State of Israel.

The current problems in the Middle east, began a long time ago. I guess the fledgling UN could be blamed, but the people who made decisions back then, are long gone.....but the problems caused by their decisions and actions, go on and on.

When I was at school, I had Christian (meaning Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jevohahs Witness), Hindu, Sikh, Muslim friends. We all got along together. Another of my friends was part Indian. I had friends with no belief at all...no religion. We got on. The ones who kept themselves to themselves, most of the time, but not always, were the black girls and the Jewish girls. Now we never thought of this as a racial thing. even at 14, 15, 16. I think we saw it as more of a cultural thing. we still got on. If only the world was like that.

That is why, to be called racist and anti-semitic, is an insult. I've known truly racist people and the comments they make are vile. We all may find things which we disapprove about, in any religion or culture, but this does not make us full of hate.

I know someone who detests Islam and I am pretty sure that person feels the same way about Arabs, even though it's not just Arabs, who are Muslim. Some of the things that person says are so intolerant, it shocked me and their views on faith of any sort can be pretty insulting. I've disagreed with people of all religions, but never insulted their personal belief...but I have had so called intellectually superior atheists call me delusional and mad and requiring treatment......just because I have beliefs and I have seen the same insults poured out to others. Strange thing is...I'd never insult an atheist and their disbelief.

Wishing that Islam could be wiped from the face of the earth is wrong. Saying one would like to see a certain country bombed out of existence is wrong. Being anti-semitic, or racist, is wrong, but it is not wrong to call the state of Israel out on much of it's behaviour. And it is not right for a world power to side with Israel and almost never criticise it. It seems that people from across the pond, almost take it as a personal insult, if the state of Israel is criticised. That kind of reaction, I frankly find rather crazy.

OK...LDD...I've gone off at a tangent....but what the heck.....people seem to have selective reading anyways.

do you have any idea about weaponry and armaments ????

lil hint, you can hide a gun and bullets in a wheelchair frame.... fuel and sugar and powered soap can make...... etc etc....

there is a reason why israel wanted to check the shipments, they were not looking for weapons of mass destruction.... they were looking for dismantled armaments and objects used to assemble weapons.....

this is the difference between a arm chair web surfing history buff and a person with knowledge and experience in the areas of weaponry and armaments... one of us actually understands what the hell israel was up to.... the other is quoting history and have no idea what the hell is actually going on at ground level...

[richarddennis]

It's time for USA to fly in food & medical supplies on a regular basis to Palestine, just like we once did to help Germany that was blockaded by Russia.

For less than 1/10 of 1% of our yearly "budget" to Israel, the Palestinians could eat for 5 years!

[Long Duck Dong]

"UN security council resolution 1860"
That is interesting. I didn't recall this but I googled it and what I found did not state anything about a blockade?

"The Resolution called for "an immediate ceasefire in Gaza leading to a full Israeli withdrawal, unimpeded provision through Gaza of food, fuel and medical treatment, and intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling." All members stressed the importance of an "immediate and durable ceasefire".
Ultimately, the resolution was unsuccessful as both Israel and Hamas ignored it and the fighting continued."

What I found on a UN ? website was the reaction to last week's incident.

At an earlier meeting Monday afternoon, Oscar Fernandez-Taranco, Assistant Secretary-General for Political Affairs, briefed the Council on the incident, reporting that Israeli naval forces had boarded a six-ship convoy, which had been heading towards Gaza. The stated purpose of the convoy was to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza and to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza, he said, making clear the United Nations has “no independent information on what transpired”.....n Mr. Fernandez Taranco’s view, today’s bloodshed would have been avoided if repeated calls on Israel to end the counterproductive and unacceptable blockade of Gaza had been heeded.

I found no UN motion supporting Israel blockading Gaza? I found UN motions opposing the blockade. Please clarify.

intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling.

thats what the blockage is.... its there to stop prevent arms and ammunition, not aid, thats why israel was happy to allow the transfer of aid after the convoy had been checked......

there is one that exists from way back that is the cornerstone for peace treaty negotiations ..
UNSC 242 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242)

Resolution 242 is one of the most commonly referred UN resolutions to end the Arab–Israeli conflict, and the basis of later negotiations between the parties. its interesting to see what groups refused to accept it.....