Gaza Aid Convoy

[Canticle]

Are you being obtuse on purpose, or just to be annoying?

She uses my religion as a weapon to wield against me anytime I say anything she doesn't like. And she has nothing of merit or value to say. She came back to this thread to pick a fight with me. She got it.

Go ahead. Defend her. That's ok. The usual suspects will.

Pasa


I told you that what you have been saying in some of your posts, has not read as very Christian. To me it showed a lack of loving ones enemy, or turning the other cheek, of loving ones fellow humans. I did not insult your beliefs. I am a Christian and in my churchm we never insult the person belief of another, whatever their religion may be. I commented on how, as a Christian, you seem to make many remarks, which to most people, would come across as very un Christian.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I try to keep my points made, aimed at the subject, unless a person makes remarks which would seem vile to most upon this site.

Who the hell are you to determine what most would think? On this site or any other? Who made you queen mum?

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Meaning exactly????? Did you take it as truth?

If you had read the rest of the post, you'd know exactly what I meant.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

I do not copy and paste.....unless it is to show something interesting in a post. I have my way of posting. it's mine, not that of a man. I don't twist words....it's not my style, because I believe in truth and decency.....that's why I'm not a liar. I do know someone do does lie and twist words...and i can tell you now......it's not nice to be on the receiving end.

I'm awfully sorry, if I haven't served in the armed forces...but I reckon that most on this site, probably have not. I have views...I will express them. If you don't like them, then you don't have to read them. I would not put down any experience you have, in the armed forces, but I would say that just because you have served in the forces, it doesn't mean that you are right, all of the time.

From now on, I shall not comment on your posts....I could and I could be rude, but I am not a rude person. I try to keep my points made, aimed at the subject, unless a person makes remarks which would seem vile to most upon this site.

having served in the armed forces gives me a understanding of things outside of the span of the average noncom civilian..... it doesn't make me right on all things.... but it does give me a broader understanding of military actions and military law

that is why I refer to the military actions and such, based around my experience and knowledge.... to shed light on things that can not be seen in videos...... I can reveal thoughts, thought patterns, strategies, scenerios etc that enhance what is seen in the videos and broaden understanding of what happened......

the option rests with others if they read and learn from a input by a person that can share additional understanding of what happened, or continue to stand by their stance that the israeli commandos acted wrongly, when faced with hostile actions by a * peaceful * group

if they choose to believe that israel is wrong, and that the protestors are right.... it doesn't make that person wrong in their opinion either.....as its their opinion......

what it does say, is that people will ignore the international aid laws etc etc and all other legal stances...... that covered both parties involved...... and stand strong in their belief that personal opinion can make any action or reaction ok.....

and to that, I say, then why have laws in the first place......if personal opinion overrules them

[Pasadenacpl2]

Military experience gives one the ability to look at an after action video and actually know what the hell is being shown.

Military experience allows one to understand what a soldier might have been thinking, feeling, experiencing. It also gives insight into strategic and tactical thinking as well as knowledge as to what is considered S.O.P. for certain types of operations.

These are things that cannot be learned by reading. They can only be learned through experience. It doesn't make someone 'right.' But it does mean that they know what they hell they are talking about a hell of a lot more than a civilian.

90% of the time when a civilian is wrong about something military, they are not wrong because they are civilian. They are wrong because they are ignorant of the facts.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

Tenni, as I was watching that 7 minute video, it became obvious to me, from the onset, that this was a very carefully constructed piece of propaganda.

I think it was the line of trucks, waiting to ''deliver aid to gaza,'' and the very deliberate filming of piles of aid, waiting to be loaded on to said trucks, that was the trigger for my immediate doubt.

How cleverly edited the footage was, with film of people who were meant to be Muslims, brandishing large knives and chanting. The fact that the IDF officer was filmed on the ship to ship radio to the aid ship and then what were supposed responses from the crew of the Turkish ship. Do people watching that, actually believe that because it is seen and heard, that this is what was said. The Israeli officer could have been filmed at any time and the replies could be faked.

I agree with most of what you say and it is telling, that most Americans, who have posted on this subject seem to believe anything said or filmed, which is favouring Israel.

I am sure that there were people on the ship, who were there, not necessarily to cause trouble, for the sake of causing trouble, but well prepared to defend themselves, knowing how violently the Israeli forces can react. I certainly do not condemn those people, but neither do I approve of any violence.

What was really absurd was the nice feminine voice, so calm and collected, saying that it was only when the Israeli forces were attacked, that they went from, paintball guns and rubber bullets, to live ammunition. I wonder what was being fired, on other video footage, seen....cos it sure sounded like rapid fire of real guns.

People also ought to be aware, that rubber bullets can kill and they can also be interfered with. I worked with a woman who's husband was in the army. He never went to Northern Ireland, but they new of many soldiers, who had turned rubber bullets into dum dum ammunition, by splittling the end of the bullet and inserting a coin. If caught, they were punished severely....but as we know....in such situations, young soldiers, do not always behave, as they would, were they still civilians.

I would not only ask what the source of this video was...but also what kind of a site was it being viewed upon. The whole thing was a propaganda excercise.

Your last words are very true...both sides have done terrible things. Such is man's inhumanity to man.

a few points....

1) voice over commentary..... a voice added to a video or streaming image as commentary after the video is recorded....

2) any video can be faked, edited etc..... they do the same thing on news channels and news websites ....... gasp, shock, horror.....

3) ever seen pics of muslim fighters shooting randomly in the air with guns ???? they will parade around openly....... the muslims in the video, had no guns, but acted in the same style.... no fear of death, lots of bravado.... and that is something that has been matched by statements from protestors on the ships..... and news footage......and is consistent with muslim extremist activities....
unless suicide bombers think they are carrying white doves to release in the name of peace

4) propaganda ??? yes that can apply to ANY news video..... that doesn't support your opinion.... but I do recognize some of the footage.... from film footage of aid convoys entering gaza...... including part of footage to do with a convoy that hamas hit with rockets......
I say again, a aid convoy into gaza, hit with rockets by hamas.....

that again.... hamas opened fire on a aid convoy into gaza......

the footage was on CNN about a aid convoy that came under fire from hamas fighters

in the video, it refers to how aid convoys being hit by rockets and attacks by hamas....

now canticle.... please share with me a lil understanding...... if footage used by CNN is used in a video to share the same info about attacks on convoys by hamas, ..convoys that match aid stats on independant sites....
and its propaganda

where do you source your * truthful * info from......????
and how do you know its the truth, if you are quick to label info that can be supported and verified in a number of sites, as fake propaganda

I personally would like to know.... in case you have access to the only source of truth in the world and everybody else is sucked in by lies

[Hephaestion]

Of course...it must have been propaganda. http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just as telling that the anti-Semites, Pro Palestinians, and the Anti-Americans haven't believed any videos to have been out that favors Israel. I like this video. It pretty plainly gives the facts. Yes, it's pro Israeli. But, then again, it says a bunch of things that aren't being said, that need to be.

1. The Flotilla was told to stop. They refused.
2. The Flotilla was told to go to a particular port to unload it's 'aid.'
3. The 'activists' on 1 ship decided to get violent. No one else seemed to need to do this.
4. The last bit of info: that the only people getting violent boarded without papers, were well funded and apparently not a part of anyone in the 'aid' convoy.
5. Israel is already sending in aid. *gasp* *shock* Oh..what? You mean that was reported months ago?

What they didn't mention is that Israel has stopped dozens of ships in the past two years, inspected them, and allowed the cargo to be delivered to Gaza. *gasp* you mean that's been reported already too? *shock*

BTW, have you heard a paintball gun on auto? Have you heard an M4 on full auto? Do you know the difference? Do you have anything to back up your claims? There is video in front of you to say one thing. What do you have to negate it?

The video jives with what is being said from several sources, including GlobalSecurity.org. The amount of aid going into Gaza seems to jive with earlier news reports, given long before the flotilla was boarded. So, that doesn't seem to be new, or made up. Every video source thus far shows the exact same thing: people attacking IDF while they are still rappelling down.

I'm waiting for something, anything, besides people, who by their own words only wish to become martyrs against Israel, making unsubstantiated claims.

Pasa

There are challenges to what you say Pasa.

1) The Israelis attacked under cover of darkness
2) the flotilla changed direction to appease the Israelis hoping for daytime talks
3) whatever was fired at the flotilla, one would not expect non military people on board to recognise any differences between a paint gun and a real gun. Just because the difference is clear to some on existing armaments doesn't mean to say that something couldn't have been developed; the Israelis did create the Ouzi (spelling) machine gun. Secondly, the marine environment can alter perceptions.
4) paint guns can do damage as well
5) passengers get on at different ports. By whose classification are these people seen as militants - and unarmed at that.
6) The ships could have been stopped without the need to attack and in daylight.
7) the attack originated from the Israelis, the ship pasengers were defending themselves and without using lethal force.
7) The proximity of the vessels would have allowed loudhailers to have been used demonstrating the request to stop
8) nothing was found on board
9) The Israelis will not allow an open investigation - what do they have to hide?

When one tries to intimidate through force and strike fear into innocent civilians, that is to terrify them, then that is an act of terrorism. The indication of targetted deaths rather confirms it; the sort of thing that death squads do. Inspecting the ships looks ever more like a very poor disguise / secondary mission.

Aid getting through in the past? - inadequate levels and / or the worng sort?

Pro Israeli videos - well they would appear sooner or later wouldn't they and one cannot blame the try. Trouble is that the recorded events keep getting in the way.

.

[Canticle]

Who the hell are you to determine what most would think? On this site or any other? Who made you queen mum?

Pasa

Think? How can commenting that some of the things you have posted, seem less than Christian in their approach, be telling you what to think. You talk a lot about your faith. As a Christian, myself, some of your comments seem to me, to be at odds with what one should feel, toward ones fellow humans. That is what I pointed out.

[Canticle]

If you had read the rest of the post, you'd know exactly what I meant.

Pasa

I did read it.

[Canticle]

Military experience gives one the ability to look at an after action video and actually know what the hell is being shown.Military experience allows one to understand what a soldier might have been thinking, feeling, experiencing. It also gives insight into strategic and tactical thinking as well as knowledge as to what is considered S.O.P. for certain types of operations.

These are things that cannot be learned by reading. They can only be learned through experience. It doesn't make someone 'right.' But it does mean that they know what they hell they are talking about a hell of a lot more than a civilian.

90% of the time when a civilian is wrong about something military, they are not wrong because they are civilian. They are wrong because they are ignorant of the facts.

Pasa

''Military experience gives one the ability to look at an after action video and actually know what the hell is being shown.''

Of course, to be able to do this, in a perfectly neutral manner, the video footage seen, needs to be complete, undoctored or edited and where there are more than one video available, all would need to be viewed. then and only then, could a totally unbiased assessment be made...and even then...one could not be sure that what was seen, actually took place, exactly as shown.

[Canticle]

LDD....Post 507......talk to the hand.......I am fully aware of all that you posted. I very rarely believe anything I see....and I certainly wouldn't believe video footage released by the Israelis.....or some of her allies. LDD, at times, I do find your tone, extremely patronising. You may not mean it as it comes across.....however...that is how it comes across.

[Canticle]

There are challenges to what you say Pasa.

1) The Israelis attacked under cover of darkness
2) the flotilla changed direction to appease the Israelis hoping for daytime talks
3) whatever was fired at the flotilla, one would not expect non military people on board to recognise any differences between a paint gun and a real gun. Just because the difference is clear to some on existing armaments doesn't mean to say that something couldn't have been developed; the Israelis did create the Ouzi (spelling) machine gun. Secondly, the marine environment can alter perceptions.
4) paint guns can do damage as well
5) passengers get on at different ports. By whose classification are these people seen as militants - and unarmed at that.
6) The ships could have been stopped without the need to attack and in daylight.
7) the attack originated from the Israelis, the ship pasengers were defending themselves and without using lethal force.
7) The proximity of the vessels would have allowed loudhailers to have been used demonstrating the request to stop
8) nothing was found on board
9) The Israelis will not allow an open investigation - what do they have to hide?

When one tries to intimidate through force and strike fear into innocent civilians, that is to terrify them, then that is an act of terrorism. The indication of targetted deaths rather confirms it; the sort of thing that death squads do. Inspecting the ships looks ever more like a very poor disguise / secondary mission.

Aid getting through in the past? - inadequate levels and / or the worng sort?

Pro Israeli videos - well they would appear sooner or later wouldn't they and one cannot blame the try. Trouble is that the recorded events keep getting in the way.

.

I'm going to annoy someone......what the heck!!!! Well said Heph!!

[Hephaestion]

a few points....

1) voice over commentary..... a voice added to a video or streaming image as commentary after the video is recorded....

2) any video can be faked, edited etc..... they do the same thing on news channels and news websites ....... gasp, shock, horror.....

3) ever seen pics of muslim fighters shooting randomly in the air with guns ???? they will parade around openly....... the muslims in the video, had no guns, but acted in the same style.... no fear of death, lots of bravado.... and that is something that has been matched by statements from protestors on the ships..... and news footage......and is consistent with muslim extremist activities....
unless suicide bombers think they are carrying white doves to release in the name of peace

4) propaganda ??? yes that can apply to ANY news video..... that doesn't support your opinion.... but I do recognize some of the footage.... from film footage of aid convoys entering gaza...... including part of footage to do with a convoy that hamas hit with rockets......
I say again, a aid convoy into gaza, hit with rockets by hamas.....

that again.... hamas opened fire on a aid convoy into gaza......

the footage was on CNN about a aid convoy that came under fire from hamas fighters

in the video, it refers to how aid convoys being hit by rockets and attacks by hamas....

now canticle.... please share with me a lil understanding...... if footage used by CNN is used in a video to share the same info about attacks on convoys by hamas, ..convoys that match aid stats on independant sites....
and its propaganda

where do you source your * truthful * info from......????
and how do you know its the truth, if you are quick to label info that can be supported and verified in a number of sites, as fake propaganda

I personally would like to know.... in case you have access to the only source of truth in the world and everybody else is sucked in by lies

Hamas attacking an aid convoy? No such thing as ms-information by accident or design? One is a goof the other is being sucked in (and videoed by accident?); very common place, from office politics to continental invasions.

People acting like terrosits and suicide bombers by strutting up and down and looking fearsome? All that could be discerned on the vidoes seen was a lot of innocent people scared out of their minds and praying to their god in the face of adversity. The odd reassuring embrace between humans facing the unkown - very dangerous! Of course, Israelis are known for their generosity and understanding when they appear at night armed to the teeth as was demonstrated.

Videos faked? Some have been. Others very unlikely.

The entire flotilla incident was an Israeli PR disaster and they keep digging.
.

[Long Duck Dong]

There are challenges to what you say Pasa.

1) The Israelis attacked under cover of darkness
2) the flotilla changed direction to appease the Israelis hoping for daytime talks
3) whatever was fired at the flotilla, one would not expect non military people on board to recognise any differences between a paint gun and a real gun. Just because the difference is clear to some on existing armaments doesn't mean to say that something couldn't have been developed; the Israelis did create the Ouzi (spelling) machine gun. Secondly, the marine environment can alter perceptions.
4) paint guns can do damage as well
5) passengers get on at different ports. By whose classification are these people seen as militants - and unarmed at that.
6) The ships could have been stopped without the need to attack and in daylight.
7) the attack originated from the Israelis, the ship pasengers were defending themselves and without using lethal force.
7) The proximity of the vessels would have allowed loudhailers to have been used demonstrating the request to stop
8) nothing was found on board
9) The Israelis will not allow an open investigation - what do they have to hide?

When one tries to intimidate through force and strike fear into innocent civilians, that is to terrify them, then that is an act of terrorism. The indication of targetted deaths rather confirms it; the sort of thing that death squads do. Inspecting the ships looks ever more like a very poor disguise / secondary mission.

Aid getting through in the past? - inadequate levels and / or the worng sort?

Pro Israeli videos - well they would appear sooner or later wouldn't they and one cannot blame the try. Trouble is that the recorded events keep getting in the way.

.

1) standard procedure..... trained professionals will be at ease at nighttime, but untrained civilians / protestors will not be as co ordinated....
there is also the possibility of closeness to the blockade line and it may have been a last minute action

2) to talk yes .... but they continued to sail forward....
they were asked to stop repeatedly and warned before they set sail, not to try and break the blockade..... how much more time did they need ????? another week ????

3) ahh I will argue that.... they fired across the bow, not at the ships, there is no footage showing any bullet impact marks on the ships.... I would expect that at least if shots were fired at the ships....

4) agreed and leave paint marks a bit like the * blood * that a journalist saw... that apparently turned out to be paint......
using paint balls would have been a way to turn and distract people and drive them back from the rappeling soliders....
btw thats not proven as what happened, but it would make sense and it can match the reports of shoots fired at the ship and paint on the rails....
but that would prove it was paintballs and not bullets that were fired at the ships

5) some of the protestors themselves made statements about that.... not the israelis, but the passengers on the ships... I am too lazy to look up the links again... but I recall the statements by protestors made within 2 days of the event, refering to the fact that the turkish protestors that attacked the soliders, never boarded at the same port the aid was loaded at, they boarded later at another port

6) how..... how would you stop them.... without disabling the ships....and risking everybody on body....

7) thats not disputed... the israelis boarded the ships, agreed...... but protestors using hostile force against soldiers is not a normal aspect of protestors or peaceful protest, its normally done by activists and extreme activists, not human aid protestors....

7) you put 7 twice.... but yes, loudhailers could be used... it doesn't mean that people will listen..... might makes right, a large loaded ship is not easy to stop and using loudhailers will not work that well when stopping ships, unless the captain gives the order to stop ship

8) nothing was found on board.... so the protestors had nothing to fear or hide...... yet they avoided stopping for a inspection
by defination would that give me the right to ignore police and fail to stop cos I have nothing to hide

9) nothing.... same as the protesters.... but I tend to think that you are like me...... not everything that is investigated, means that the truth is revealed either.....

people want to hear is that israel was wrong.....
not that the protesters acted in any manner that was wrong under the international aid laws that protected them..... but that israel was wrong...
and we both know that there will be a number of people not happy with any findings and rulings that find one or the other or both groups at fault.....

I say that if the ships had gone to port and being inspected, none of this would have happened, .... going to port may be right or wrong in peoples eyes.... but its a simple case of the deaths could have been avoided.....by a simple action.....

let the governments fight over if the blockade is legal or not.... the mission was to deliever aid to gaza and it would have got there without loss of life

[Long Duck Dong]

Hamas attacking an aid convoy? No such thing as ms-information by accident or design? One is a goof the other is being sucked in (and videoed by accident?); very common place, from office politics to continental invasions.

People acting like terrosits and suicide bombers by strutting up and down and looking fearsome? All that could be discerned on the vidoes seen was a lot of innocent people scared out of their minds and praying to their god in the face of adversity. The odd reassuring embrace between humans facing the unkown - very dangerous! Of course, Israelis are known for their generosity and understanding when they appear at night armed to the teeth as was demonstrated.

Videos faked? Some have been. Others very unlikely.

The entire flotilla incident was an Israeli PR disaster and they keep digging.
.

yeah it could be misinformation..... but hey.. that would mean that every news source and video etc that people are linking to, watching, commenting on etc.... is mis information....

I mean I could be conned, it could be israeli commandoes sneaking into the gaza strip with rpgs and firing upon convoys in broad daylight, and not being detected at all by any other person in the gaza strip.....

but hang on a sec, I thought that the israelis only do night time attacks on unarmed, innocent protestors that are playing the drums with metal bars on ships that are lost at sea and not trying to break thru blockades....

sighs.... dammit, I am being conned so much.....

the protestors were not hitting the soldiers with bars, they were hugging them and offering to show them the lower decks the fast way.... and the blood was from the tomato sauce on the fish and chips

damm CNN and the other news sources for conning me so badly...... I now realise that there was no transport ships either, they were actually sail boats with nude blondes on board sharing drinks and cigars with bill Clinton

I may be sceptical.... but I am no idiot.....

reliable info such as the aid arranged by a pro islamic group with links to terrorist movements, is the first clue that something was up with the shipment...

700 protestors on a ship... how many of them were needed to unload it ????

media / reporters on board a mission aid ship..... yes I can support that and understand it...... but ahhhh why so many this time.... when most times there is a handful......

unless there is going to be a large media worthy event..... like the breaking of a blockade and the berthing in gaza of the ships ????

that is stuff that was going on, BEFORE the incident, that would indicate that something was going on... and had to have been arranged BEFORE the ships even sailed

[DuckiesDarling]

America was a terrorist during the Bush years? *chokes on coffee* Honestly, Tenni, go look at the crater where the World Trade Center stood. Go watch United Flight 93. Go fuck yourself. There I said it, have a nice day.

Now, Canticle. I'll say what you are ignoring from everyone else. When it comes to military operations civilians don't know shit and can only spout what every other tom, dick or harry with a band of ribbons that retired during the Reagan years they can get on tv to say any soundbite.

Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.

Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.

Fact: AID GOES TO GAZA FROM ISRAEL.

Okay maybe you'll get that through your thick skull now. Aid is being given daily to the people in the Gaza Strip by the country you think is so detestable. Aid is being rejected by Hamas because it is delivered by Israel. They would rather babies starve than let the aid be used. They have attacked an Aid ship coming in because it was cleared. Why sink it? I mean they only had need of clothes and food and medical supplies... oh yeah nothing on there for Hamas, no rockets, no guns, no ammo, no Fatah members to slice up into steaks.

[Long Duck Dong]

''Military experience gives one the ability to look at an after action video and actually know what the hell is being shown.''

Of course, to be able to do this, in a perfectly neutral manner, the video footage seen, needs to be complete, undoctored or edited and where there are more than one video available, all would need to be viewed. then and only then, could a totally unbiased assessment be made...and even then...one could not be sure that what was seen, actually took place, exactly as shown.

no there doesn't....... pasadenacpl was refering to people that understand military action.... not arm chair critics

a person with military experience can look at one video and know, from experience and with great certainity, what orders were issued, what the mission parameters are, what the objective is, under what circumstances is non lethal and lethal force to be used....
what actions to take once on board, the purpose of being on board, who deals with what, how and why
why what weapons were used etc.....

arm chair critics can only quess, so need all the videos available, and so they can argue propaganda, editing, biased views etc....

so once again..... you prove my point,.... there are things that people with military backgrounds, understand better than non com civilians.....
the boarding of the ship is one of them.....

btw.... your hand needs washing, my dear, I am not talking to a hand with skidmarks on it

[Pasadenacpl2]

I get a little angry when people from the US come to an international website proclaiming protests about terrorist states when they lived in a terrorist state during the Bush years. If they acknowledged their own country's terrorist and inappropriate international acts first, there words would have more credibility. The Iraqi children and adults who suffered and were terrorized might appreciate it.

I missed this the first time through.

First, we were not, and are not terrorists. We went to war. War has unintended casualities, but we don't target, purposefully, civilian targets, nor do we use EIDs, nor do we fire rockets into shopping centers, send our men to be homicide bombers, or any other terrorist activities. When our men and women went beyond the scope of their mission parameters, they were punished.

Second, I'm getting about tired of your tirades against the US. Shut your cockholster. This isn't an international website. It's housed right here in the US. That you decide to come here is great. But don't you for an instant think this is anything but good old American.

No, I don't care about civility any longer. You want to call the men and women who serve in our armed forces terrorists, you get what's coming to you. And, Tenni, be glad you are safe and secure behind your monitor. If you'd said that in my presence, the very least you would have received would be a rosy red hand print on your face. More likely, a gurney would have been required. I'm betting that you don't have the courage to say anything like that to a real live human being.

Notice to everyone: Lay off the attacks on the US. I don't attack your nation, nor does anyone else. But you seem to think the US is fair game. It's not. You want civility? Then you had better be willing to stop the attacks. If not, be prepared for me to start getting it back in spades.

I will not be civil. I will not be nice. I will not be polite. As long as you make spurious attacks on my nation, and on the men and women who provide you your freedom (and yes, Tenni, we provide Canada's security), I will be as uncivil as I can muster.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

..and u succeed in being very uncivil very well indeed, Pasa.. the military by its very nature is a terror organisation.. all militaries of all nations.. that which belongs to my own is no different as the report on Bloody Sunday proves.. whether that makes a nation terrorist is debatable, but as pacifist who has preached non violence all of her adult life and most of her childhood I believe it to be so.. militaries of all nations try to avoid collateral damage and killing and maiming civilians only so long as it suits their purpose.. what you call terrorist groups such as Al Quaeda are little different.. they sacrifice young men and women in the name of a cause as indeed does a military and kill anyone who gets in its way.. the cause may differ but the result is still death and the maiming of many innocents.. I don't expect you to like what I say but that is what it is all about..

..and you have attacked other nations Pasa dont tell fibs...mine for one.. and by definition every other nation which takes issue with any US government dictat.. but its ok if you believe them wrong.. we are grown ups.. well most of us are..

..and the site is actually based in Canada.. such a little thing to pull you up on.. but it is open to all people the world over and makes it therefore international.. another such little thing..

[DuckiesDarling]

Fran, there is a large difference in military going after military targets with unintended civilian deaths and the terrorist groups like Al Queda that target non military targets to cause the most destruction and let's face it terror. Or do you really think that a 2 year old on a plane that went down in the Pennsylvania field deserves to be called collateral damage?

And since everyone seems to love pointing fingers at America for responding to terror in a way you don't agree with. Let me share you a video that Daryl Worley put out that pretty much sums up American feelings for the most part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU

The war has went on too long over there and we are tired, we want our boys home. We want the Gaza problem solved, a two state solution. But no...Hamas won't hear of that. They want to wipe Israel off the map. Get over it. Israel is there to stay, terrorists come and go in regimes across the world but the nation of Israel has maintained their humanity more than anyone gives them credit. They could simply blockade Gaza and not transport ANY relief. Soon starvataion would deal with the problem, but they are sending them supplies to make sure innocents don't suffer. But when activists go beyond just supplying aid and begin supplying weapons and instigating international incidents then activists have dipped into the terrorist playbook and become terrorists themselves. Such as the one who screamed at the Israeli commander over the radio "Go back to Auschwitz".

[Long Duck Dong]

..and u succeed in being very uncivil very well indeed, Pasa.. the military by its very nature is a terror organisation.. all militaries of all nations.. that which belongs to my own is no different as the report on Bloody Sunday proves.. whether that makes a nation terrorist is debatable, but as pacifist who has preached non violence all of her adult life and most of her childhood I believe it to be so.. militaries of all nations try to avoid collateral damage and killing and maiming civilians only so long as it suits their purpose.. what you call terrorist groups such as Al Quaeda are little different.. they sacrifice young men and women in the name of a cause as indeed does a military and kill anyone who gets in its way.. the cause may differ but the result is still death and the maiming of many innocents.. I don't expect you to like what I say but that is what it is all about..

..and you have attacked other nations Pasa dont tell fibs...mine for one.. and by definition every other nation which takes issue with any US government dictat.. but its ok if you believe them wrong.. we are grown ups.. well most of us are..

..and the site is actually based in Canada.. such a little thing to pull you up on.. but it is open to all people the world over and makes it therefore international.. another such little thing..

I struggled with your post, fran, and the truth in your words.....

tho I am a trained soldier and yes, I was trained to end human lives, I struggle with the idea that I am / was a terrorist.....
but I do accept and understand what you are saying, is not intended to be a insult or malicious

there are times that we are needed to be terrorists, ie against the germans in ww2 etc.... and times that we should have not been terrorists, IE bloody sunday.....
but at the end of the day, we are trained to take human lives, in pretty much the same way that terrorists do the same thing.... merely the reasoning is different.....

however, I will defend the doctors and nurses of the military and the chefs, engineers etc that are not combat personnel in the military, that serve a non destructive purpose....

do I struggle at times with the knowledge that I willingly trained to become a person that would fight against another person who would use the same type of thinking that I have, * kill or be killed * ?
yes, I struggle at times with the knowledge that I can and will take a human life without blinking or feeling emotion or sympathy....

but in my defense, I have the choice of pulling the trigger.... and that is what makes the difference between me and a terrorist.....
I will not end a human life to further a cause ...but end a human life to save others .......

it makes me no better and no worse than a pacifist..... it merely makes me a person that risks my life so a pacifist will never have to.....

hugs fran.... btw, welcome back, hope ya time away was good

[tenni]

I will not rehash the entire US terrorism of Iraq and others: the US shooting killings of women and children at check points that terrorized Iraqis for months after the US illegal/immoral invasion of Iraq, the kidnapping of people outside the US territory by US CIA etc., terrorizing of such kidnapped victims and torturing of these people either by US people or farming out the torture and terrorizing to known societies that use torture. The violation of the Geneva Conventions redoing them to suit the interests and needs of the Bush regime.

Scream all you want DD, Pasa and other US persons but know that your country is seen as a terrorist state by some in the world for the actions of your terrorist Bush government. All of your denial will not change that perception. Couch your statements with this awareness and stop the nonsense of pretending to be innocent and a "just" society. Hammas was a terrorist organization. Some call Gaza a terrorist state now that Hammas is the government. The US was a terrorist state under Bush. Whether the Hammas government of Gaza is a terrorist state, I don't know for sure due to all the various perspectives. Is Israel terrorizing Gaza now? It may be seen that way by some. Israel is wrong to block material that the Gazans need to rebuild what Israel destroyed in last year's Israeli attacks on Gaza. The UN states what are humanitarian supplies and needs and this list does not match Israel's list of what is humanitarian. The Israel list of blocking such items as school supplies, wheelchairs, computers, toys, cement, etc. Cement and steel are mentioned as material that Israel will not let in to Gaza. The suspected Israeli propoganda video ignores this fact. Both were on the UN list of humanitarian aid material. Steel and raw materials are needed to rebuild Gaza's factories or have the factories function so that Gazans may work to get their economy functioning are blocked. Whether this is humanitarian or not I'm not sure. It certainly seems punitive on Israel's part to prevent Gaza from functioning.

I woke this morning to read that Israel senior cabinet ministers are meeting to consider reducing the types of items that Israel will permit in to Gaza. This is due to the international outcry over the murder of civilians on these ships. Here is a quote from the Globe and Mail.

"The Haaretz newspaper on Wednesday quoted international envoy Tony Blair as hailing the expected vote by the Israeli ministers.

“It will allow us to keep weapons and weapon materials out of Gaza, but on the other hand to help the Palestinian population there,” Mr. Blair was quoted as saying. “The policy in Gaza should be to isolate the extremists but to help the people”


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/israel-mulls-easing-gaza-blockade/article1605808/

Blair represents the Quartet of Mideast negotiators — the U.S., European Union, U.N. and Russia. The fact that he can not just represents the UN but needs the weight of these other political forces shows you what a mess the world is in on one hand but strength of this quartet that Israel is wrong and needs to change its behaviour.

[DareMe]

The first casualty of war is truth!

Arthur Ponsonby

[tenni]

The first casualty of war is truth!

Arthur Ponsonby

That may also apply to acts of terrorism regardless of the terrorist organization or terrorist state.

[darkeyes]

I struggled with your post, fran, and the truth in your words.....

tho I am a trained soldier and yes, I was trained to end human lives, I struggle with the idea that I am / was a terrorist.....
but I do accept and understand what you are saying, is not intended to be a insult or malicious

there are times that we are needed to be terrorists, ie against the germans in ww2 etc.... and times that we should have not been terrorists, IE bloody sunday.....
but at the end of the day, we are trained to take human lives, in pretty much the same way that terrorists do the same thing.... merely the reasoning is different.....

however, I will defend the doctors and nurses of the military and the chefs, engineers etc that are not combat personnel in the military, that serve a non destructive purpose....

do I struggle at times with the knowledge that I willingly trained to become a person that would fight against another person who would use the same type of thinking that I have, * kill or be killed * ?
yes, I struggle at times with the knowledge that I can and will take a human life without blinking or feeling emotion or sympathy....

but in my defense, I have the choice of pulling the trigger.... and that is what makes the difference between me and a terrorist.....
I will not end a human life to further a cause ...but end a human life to save others .......

it makes me no better and no worse than a pacifist..... it merely makes me a person that risks my life so a pacifist will never have to.....

hugs fran.... btw, welcome back, hope ya time away was good

Why thank you Sweetheart for your luffly welcome back.. did have a luffly time in the big smoke tyvm and apart from 16 15 and 16 yo's trying my pacifism at times it was fun.. although trying to keep my big gob shut as the coach zoomed past Buck House and along the Mall past Downing Street was indeed a test of the Fran will.. can't have me indoctrinating the children now can we? Although one lad made me smile as he referred to the Queen as a "parasitical old bag" and Cameron as a f****** Tory bastard".. I left it to another to bollock him... someone more in keeping with the establishment view..;) A very astute young man for whom I hold out great hope is the boy..:tong:

Whether we are better or worse than each other is a long and sometimes tortuous debate.. mostly I just consider it that people of my view and those more in keeping with yours just have different views. There is a valid argument for armed defence.. I simply just don't accept it for one minute.. if I may turn your statement on its head.. pacifism teaches that armed struggle would not be necessary if only we could discuss our problems and come to agreement.. good will and a preparedness to settle a dispute is needed, and that is far better than resorting to armed conflict.. so my way involves avoiding the need for people to take up arms therefore it can be argued that my way saves yours as much as yours may save mine.. that it doesnt happen is down to powerful vested interests and greedy getts who are quite happy to send as many young men and women into a conflict to promote and defend their interests.. it is a pursuit of power and its retention.. thats what war is all about.. not saving your or my way of life..its about saving and furthering theirs.. and to hell with us..

I dont differentiate between types of military personnel.. medics are there to save the lives primarily of their soldiers and get them returned to combat asap.. engineers to do what is necessary for the military to get its job done.. both in the end result in loss of life.. yes medics and engineers often do great things for other people who are not military..often even for those considered an enemy.. and for that they should always be applauded.. as should the ordinary squaddie who digs people out from under the rubble in some humanitarian crisis or other.. but in the end all are there to enable their side to win a war whether that war be against an internal or external foe.. that is their primary purpose.. and no I dont say it out of a sense of being malicious.. I say it with the greatest of sadness and regret as a I say anything about anything in which I believe.. with regard to the military and warfare, I just think things could be done much better than by fighting and killing, and the resources spent in much more socially acceptable ways for the betterment of all of humanity not for its destruction and for the benefit of but a few selfish and greedy powerful people ..

[darkeyes]

Fran, there is a large difference in military going after military targets with unintended civilian deaths and the terrorist groups like Al Queda that target non military targets to cause the most destruction and let's face it terror. Or do you really think that a 2 year old on a plane that went down in the Pennsylvania field deserves to be called collateral damage?

And since everyone seems to love pointing fingers at America for responding to terror in a way you don't agree with. Let me share you a video that Daryl Worley put out that pretty much sums up American feelings for the most part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU

The war has went on too long over there and we are tired, we want our boys home. We want the Gaza problem solved, a two state solution. But no...Hamas won't hear of that. They want to wipe Israel off the map. Get over it. Israel is there to stay, terrorists come and go in regimes across the world but the nation of Israel has maintained their humanity more than anyone gives them credit. They could simply blockade Gaza and not transport ANY relief. Soon starvataion would deal with the problem, but they are sending them supplies to make sure innocents don't suffer. But when activists go beyond just supplying aid and begin supplying weapons and instigating international incidents then activists have dipped into the terrorist playbook and become terrorists themselves. Such as the one who screamed at the Israeli commander over the radio "Go back to Auschwitz".

Now what do I call you? Twyla? DD naaa Darling will have to do.. sounds most appropriate..:tong:;)

I'm tired of war too Twyla.. of death and destruction and knowing my country, which supports yours in most things terror, and is every bit as much involved as your own.. and has endured what people refer to as terrorism a hell of a lot longer. I have said Israel exists..and has the right to exist.. I have never uttered a word that it should not be allowed to exist in peace with its neighbours and with all other nations and peoples in the international community.. the difference between us is that I understand the frustration of a people who are oppressed, blockaded and bombed.. Hamas are no better than Israel.. but when a people is so downtrodden and crushed as Palestinians have been it is unsurprising that they turn to someone who offers them hope.. and often turn to them and act violently on their behalf.. Israelis see things essentially from the perspective of their government.. and is it therefore surprising that Palestinians do the same from theirs? Especially as Israel has the prosperity, the armaments and the most powerful nation on earth in its corner.. a nation as Tenni rightly observes is believed by many to itself be a terrorist state and does not play the honest broker..

A friend of mine recently said I am as dishonest as the US as I am a supporter of the Palestinians at the expense of Israelis.. it is essentially true.. whether it is dishonest or not I would and did take issue.. for it is not Israelis who are struggling for their everyday survival, who are blockaded and have a regional superpower oppressing them.. were the boot on the other foot, and it was Israelis who lived under the conditions in which Gazan Palestinians do and Palestinians treated them as Israelis treat Gazans now, then my sympathies would be in quite another quarter.. but the boot isn't on the other foot is it, Darling? Therefore I can do nothing other than believe, think, act and sympathise as I do now..

[tenni]

DD
Trying to use the 9/11 card and the poor victims of 9/11 without admitting the errors of your own country's actions that in part caused the terrorists to act, is just plain foolish....(insert stronger word..lol) Your country's reaction and terrorist actions were not justified nor morally appropriate ..after a certain point in time. This also applies to both sides in the mid east.

It wears thin with me and I was horrified when 9/11 happened. My heart went out to your people and my own country citizens who died there probably more than it goes out to the Iraqi and Palestinian. Why? I saw it right in my face on TV. We do not see nor even hear about how difficult it is to live in Gaza under the conditions that they exist. Darkeyes is correct in stating that the Israelis live a much better quality of life but they too still live with terror. Both sides have wronged each other.

Open your mind a bit more. You are a bright woman and frequently show yourself to be aware of many errors of your society. Stop the blindly accepting the propaganda brainwashing that you are exposed to. Otherwise, we are no better than those Palestinians etc. who cry for Israel's destruction from the face of the Earth.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It's a god thing Tenni, that you and I will never meet. Not that you would say such things to an American vet's face. I'm betting that you are as much of a coward as the desrters you took in. I'm sure you are not willing to stand and accept the consequences for callimg US soldiers terrorists. Even more, I'm betting you don't have the backbone to say it to a soldier's wife. You tell her that he's a terrorist, better make sure you do it in front of their sons and daughters too. But no, I'm betting that you are gutless.

Good thing to that you don't represent anything more than the tinfoil hat crowd in your nation. You and the traitors must get along pretty well.

Again, shut your cockholster. Pretty much going to be the reponse you earn from now on.

Pasa

[Canticle]

America was a terrorist during the Bush years? *chokes on coffee* Honestly, Tenni, go look at the crater where the World Trade Center stood. Go watch United Flight 93. Go fuck yourself. There I said it, have a nice day.

Now, Canticle. I'll say what you are ignoring from everyone else. When it comes to military operations civilians don't know shit and can only spout what every other tom, dick or harry with a band of ribbons that retired during the Reagan years they can get on tv to say any soundbite.

Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.

Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.

Fact: AID GOES TO GAZA FROM ISRAEL.

Okay maybe you'll get that through your thick skull now. Aid is being given daily to the people in the Gaza Strip by the country you think is so detestable. Aid is being rejected by Hamas because it is delivered by Israel. They would rather babies starve than let the aid be used. They have attacked an Aid ship coming in because it was cleared. Why sink it? I mean they only had need of clothes and food and medical supplies... oh yeah nothing on there for Hamas, no rockets, no guns, no ammo, no Fatah members to slice up into steaks.

My skull in neither thick, nor thin and my intellect is sufficient enough, that I do not watch any video, or news report, or read any newpaper and decide that what I am seeing, hearing, or reading, is necessarily correct.

How are you so certain that Israel is supplying all this aid to Gaza and on a daily basis? Where do you get your information, that so obviously convinces you of this fact.

Do the people of Gaza merely need clothes and food and medical supplies and other items (no doubt), to make life bearable and comfortable. That makes them sound like a small child, which should be grateful for everything, the beneficial and more powerful, parent figure, dishes out to them.

I do not detest Israel. Why do you try to put words in to mouths, when they have not been uttered.

What comes over to me is this DD....and I may be totally wrong. You appear to believe any news or propaganda, whether it be from your own government, the Israel government, or their fast and firm friends. Your comment upon the sevent minute video, which the link for, was posted earlier in this thread, leads me to think this. I watched that video carefully and it was pure Israeli propaganda from the beginning.

You seem to think that if people do not approve of what the state of Israel may do, that this means they detest the State of Israel. This is not so. One can be critical, severely critical, without having any hatred in ones heart.

I know that as far as Israel and it's people are concerned, I have a clear conscience, about how I feel about that country. It exists and all countries should recognise it as such. Islam, Judaism and Christianity, all have their roots in the Middle East and the land is special and sacred to all of those religions, but more importantly, to the indigenous population.

One day there may be peace, but that peace cannot be achieved by considering the feelings and beliefs, of just one nation, or people. Israel is not the great peacemaker, that I think you believe it to be. Israel can be as bloody minded as any of the countries in the region and has an ego to match that bloodymindedness. Is that a good or bad thing? Good in some ways....helps with survival. Bad in others.....because arrogance does not garner friendship.

One day, maybe the people and governments of the area, will realise that they have more in common, than they have not. When that day will be...who knows? Until then, there will be conflict and people will suffer, on both sides.

Islamic countries need to recognise Israel. Palestinian people, who were displaced from their land, need a homeland too. Israel needs to get the chip off it's shoulder, know that land is just that....land. That it was never meant to be their's and their's alone and there is no chosen nation. We are all.....every single human being upon this planet....chosen people....meaning we are all as important as one another.

Don't tell me I detest Israel, because you have absilutely no idea of the different views I have and for me, the land of that part of the world, has meant a great deal, both faith wise and spirituality wise, for the past 40 years.

[Canticle]

LDD Post 518

No skidmarks upon my hands. Always very clean. A light wash and rinse is all they ever need. No need to scrub and rub grime and odour from them. Never has been that need.

[Canticle]

DD 521....

' But when activists go beyond just supplying aid and begin supplying weapons and instigating international incidents then activists have dipped into the terrorist playbook and become terrorists themselves. Such as the one who screamed at the Israeli commander over the radio "Go back to Auschwitz". '

So you did believe that video?

You didn't stop to consider that this may have been faked, for propaganda purposes? You didn't wonder why the Israeli officer on his ship, was so very coveniently filmed, talking to the aid ship?

How can you just accept that the video was truth and not a propaganda exercise, carefully edited?

[Canticle]

Pasa..Post 519

''Second, I'm getting about tired of your tirades against the US. Shut your cockholster. This isn't an international website. It's housed right here in the US. That you decide to come here is great. But don't you for an instant think this is anything but good old American.''

How rude, vulgar, amazing inward looking and also, as Fran pointed out, how very wrong you are.

Pasa, it has become obvious that you are not the sort of person, many here, would like to meet, with your verbally violent attacks upon people and even hinting what you would do, if certain things were said to you, face to face. I doubt that you would do those things. People who say that sort of thing, rarely do, when given the opportunity.

The world does not end at the USA borders and the USA does not own the world. Your country has made big mistakes, just as any of the powerful countries, over the centuries, have done.

It always dismays me, when trying to have some kind of intelligent conversation with Americans, that the minute your country is criticised, you revert to insults and usually very immature ones.

The usual ones are ''We kicked your ass in 1776,'' which then leads to a long debate about fighting a war, at a great distance, at a time when it took weeks to get supplies to different parts of the world.

Or the remark which we have already had in this thread ''If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German.'' or the incredibly immature remarks about British dental treatment. I do sometimes wonder, where people get there information from.

One person......who I know very well and consider to be one of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered, actually though that the British Monarch told the Prime Minister what to do.

When one encounters people from your country with views like this and other views and ideas, which they have just accepted as truth or the way things are in the world and these people, do not appear to have open minds or even want to know what goes on elsewhere in the world, then we people from other parts of the globe, get to feel that everyone in the USA thinks like this, which is not true. We know it's not, but this is what comes across.

I would not go as far as what tenni said, but I would say that many countries in the world, do see the USA as a terrorist state, whether or not they are correct. The USA is also seen as bent on imperialism. This is not a fairy story, but the truth of how your country is seen.

Things do not bode well, for any people, if they cannot be self critical of themselves and their nation and also accept and try to understand the criticism from other people and countries.

Your country isn't perfect or the greatest........no country is.....all have their faults.....and arrogance and a big ego.....whatever the country....do not go down well with other nations and organisations.

You have a beautiful country and one which has a diverse population, culturally, racially. There are many good things about the USA, but like all countries, there are things which are not so good. try to realise that and not become so protective.

[DuckiesDarling]

hugs Fran, I don't believe Israel should just wipe the Gazans out, I believe in the two state solution. The problem is that when you keep offering a helping hand to the citizens of Gaza you are in danger of getting it bit off by Hamas. The things going through to Gaza must be monitored so that they can survive as a people but not continue using rockets on the people of Israel.

And yes, Canticle, I believe the video for the most part as it matches damned near every other video out there. We have all seen the video of the soldiers being attacked, we have all seen the video of the protesters arming themselves with iron bars and knives. Open your eyes, it's a fact. The protesters took the step that moved them from activists to terrorists.

The simple truth is, no matter how much you try to deny it Canticle, aid is going into Gaze from Israel. And for their pains the Hamas government randomly has bombs at checkpoints. But they don't shirk their duty, they continue daily to deliver aid that the innocents need.

Now is the time for the Gazan people to tell Hamas they want Gilad Shalit set free, they want the rocket attacks to stop, they want to live in the two state solution. That will never happen as long as Hamas maintains power, and they will maintain it through the blood of Gazans who oppose them. No matter how many innocent people suffer on either side, Hamas only sees them as traitors to the Jihad cause.

[Canticle]

Fran and Tenni

Thank you for your posts. I do not agree with either of you....entirely.....but for the most part....I do.

Unlike you, Fran, I am not a pacifist. However, like you, I always hope that things can be sorted out and agreements come to, without the need for military action. For with military action, there are going to be casualties, both in the forces and with civilian deaths.

I find it tragic that the Middle East should be in the state it is, when so much has come from that part of the world, which had it not been for so many highly intelligent people, so many centuries ago, our world might be very different today.

How many people remember that there were scientists and mathematicians in the Arab countries striving to discover things. That the art and culture of Islam, left it's mark upon Europe and not in a bad way.

It has enriched us culturally.

It is sad that all the things we have in common, with one another, are forgotten in war and political and social unrest. War and terrorist attacks destroy and although there may sometimes be a very necessary reason to go to war, ultimately there are no winners.

Tenni.......I would not call the USA a terrorist state, I think that is going too far, but I do understand where you are coming from and appreciate what you were trying to say.

When it comes to September 11th 2001 (I don't like the dramatic 9/11 usage), I believe that day and what happened to so many people, has to be remembered and remembered for exactly what it was, The biggest terrorist attack on a country and killing so many civilians. Not just Americans.....but people from all points of the globe, races, creed, colour.

It was a terrible day, but other terrible things have happened upon that date, and during recent time. One event leading to the deaths of many more people, than died in the twin towers.

However all death and caused to innocent people is abominable and we have to remember this.

I would agree with you, that certain events, no matter which, cannot always be used and used again, as an excuse for war.....or in the case of Hammas or Al Queda.....terrorist attacks. And a country, which has only recently, begun to experience terrorism, in it's own yard, has to remember, that many other countries have been experiencing terrorism for decades.

That is why I find patriotic songs, rather distasteful and also the glorification of the military. Having countless people, on certain days, posting, in chat rooms (not here), ''God Bless the troops'' etc, over and over again, I do read as showing respect, but showing a militaristic side to a culture and one that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

I honour the dead and fallen, military and civilian in a quiet and dignified manner. This is the way of my country and to me, it is the quiet rememberance, which seems more genuine. It allows for reflection and rememberance of all who suffer. Like the MP husband, of a young woman at my church, literally hacked to death, in Iraq. Or recently, a young man who was at school with my sons, dying in Afghanistan. The whole town, where his funeral was held, came to a standstill, to show it's respect.

I do not understand, why some people in certain lands think that wars that cannot be won, are being fought for their freedom. These wars, which cannot be won, just take the lives of youg men and women, in the forces and cause many more deaths among civilian populations and destroy the countries....which then have to be rebuilt.

I hope, that one day, peace will come, to the Middle East and to other parts of the world, but it has to be realised, that in most cases, the battles fought, will not cause true peace to come about.

[DuckiesDarling]

And Tenni, yes I am well aware the US isn't perfect, but to call us a terrorist state under Bush was a bit far. There is a huge difference in a war targeting military areas and hijacking planes to send into civilian targets and setting bombs to kill as many innocents as you can find. Soldiers don't target civilians, but sometimes civilians do die. Any soldier in Iraq that went over the line was punished. Many Americans still want something done about Gitmo. But that isn't what this thread is about although you opened that door.

This thread is about Israel/Gaza and the hopeless tangle of a situation there that everyone seems to want to stick their fingers in without offering any real solutions. The flotilla was designed to be an attack, not a rescue. Many independent sources have cited the preperations and the attack on the soliders was premeditated. Not only premeditated but planned. They knew by ignoring the request to go to Ashdod that Israel would have to act. They wanted Israel to act so the world would scream OMG look at what they did. The fact remains they broke international law and want to be glorified for doing so. Nope, when they caused the deaths of 9 people, the injury of 27 more and the injuries of 7 soldiers...they don't care about the innocents in Gaza, they only care about making a political point. So you can point fingers at Israel all day long but you have to admit the activists bear the brunt of the responsibility for this incident. At a number of times they could have just docked and had the aid transferred to Gaza. They chose not to do so and it cost lives. So literally blood is on the hands of the organizers of the Flotilla, I really hope they sleep well at night.

[Canticle]

hugs Fran, I don't believe Israel should just wipe the Gazans out, I believe in the two state solution. The problem is that when you keep offering a helping hand to the citizens of Gaza you are in danger of getting it bit off by Hamas. The things going through to Gaza must be monitored so that they can survive as a people but not continue using rockets on the people of Israel.

And yes, Canticle, I believe the video for the most part as it matches damned near every other video out there. We have all seen the video of the soldiers being attacked, we have all seen the video of the protesters arming themselves with iron bars and knives. Open your eyes, it's a fact. The protesters took the step that moved them from activists to terrorists.

The simple truth is, no matter how much you try to deny it Canticle, aid is going into Gaze from Israel. And for their pains the Hamas government randomly has bombs at checkpoints. But they don't shirk their duty, they continue daily to deliver aid that the innocents need.

Now is the time for the Gazan people to tell Hamas they want Gilad Shalit set free, they want the rocket attacks to stop, they want to live in the two state solution. That will never happen as long as Hamas maintains power, and they will maintain it through the blood of Gazans who oppose them. No matter how many innocent people suffer on either side, Hamas only sees them as traitors to the Jihad cause.

I watched the video. I saw very deliberate propaganda and I believe that probably most of what you would call videos showing the truth are doctored propaganda.

I don't accept that the activists crossed the line and became terrorists, but then I don't have your great belief in the Israeli military, as being the ones in the right.

How are you so sure that all this aid is being delivered, by these diligent Israelis? Where do you get your concrete information from? Which news agencies and media, do you believe?

It's amazing how much trouble the Israeli's have always gone to, to retrieve one or two soldiers. They have even been known to bomb places to bits, to retrieve one person. That...to me....shows a certain fanaticism.

Desperate and frightened people have every right to defend themselves in any manner, if they are feeling scared for their lives.

What would your opinion be, if a group of Jewish humanitarian activists, critical of Israel and how Israel behaves, decided to break through this blockade.

Would it be OK for them to defend themselves against Israeli troops landing upon their ship. Or do you think that because they would be Jewish activists, they would automatically co-operate with Israeli demands.

Something to think about.

I really cannot see how anyone could see that video, for anything other than it was.....cheap and rather vile propaganda.

By the way......google Mordechai Vanunu. israel doesn't treat it's own, who become dissidents, very well.

[tenni]

DD
I agree with some of the statements that you have posted in post 536.

I agree that the civilians on these ships were making a political point and protest.

I agree that they knew that they would resist going to Ashdad port and that they were prepared for Israel to do something but I have no proof that they knew that some would die. Some of the 700 may have thought that there would be violence but I suspect many were doing a peaceful resistant act...like the US Martin Luther King and blacks from that era did. King knew that he may be injured and killed but that did not stop him from trying to change injustices that he believed that he saw. Contrary to your belief, I have information from a Canadian on the ship (the Kevin in the video) did not expect killings. He expected to be arrested and maybe pushed a bit. He was on the ship where the murders happened. He states that Israel fired on them before boarding. He was there.

I agree that the civilian activists wanted Israel to act or that they knew that Israel may act to prevent them. That is what some people do to get the world to pay attention to injustice. The purpose was for most to be a peaceful protest in a pacifist manner. After three years hundred set out to make the world more aware of the suffering of the Gazans and the injustice that Israel was doing. They seem to have some success but only time will tell.

The rest of your beliefs I do not agree with.

I am unclear about who is breaking international law. I know that Israel did not follow protocol for boarding a cargo ship in international waters according to a Canadian International law expert. I do not believe that Israel has the "right" to have this blockade. The world has not sanctioned this any more than the world sanctioned the US invasion of Iraq. The world did sanction the US invasion of Afghanistan. See the difference?

As far as the US being a terrorist state under Bush, it is a reality that this belief exists in the world. Deny all you will. This is real whether you own it or not. Be more careful about accusing others of being terrorist states.

[DuckiesDarling]

Believe whatever you want, Canticle. You are stuck in your rut and nothing will move you to one side or the other no matter that it might not be such a bumpy ride.

How can every fucking source be propaganda, even news agencies that were there the day the flotilla was raided. I guess you'll just say news is propaganda.

And highly doubtful any Jewish activist would attempt to aid Gaza in any way that wasn't approved by Israel. So that hypothetical situation is ridiculous.

If the ship had docked when it was asked, all of this could have been prevented. But you'd rather glory in the fact there was an attack and use it to try and prove Israel is wrong.

Using humanitarian aid as a cover for terrorists activities is completely possible here given all the evidence and I don't care which side produces it, the evidence is there. And yes the Fatah member that Hamas sliced into steaks and sent back to his family is proof of the "humanity" of Hamas. There is a story for every nation, Canticle.

[Pasadenacpl2]

The world has not sanctioned this any more than the world sanctioned the US invasion of Iraq. The world did sanction the US invasion of Afghanistan. See the difference?

Iraq broke the cease fire agreement. An agreement that the UN approved of. That was all the legality needed. Further, UN Resolution 1441 stated that Iraq had one, final, opportunity to comply, and if it did not, that it would be considered in material breach of the ceasefire Resolution 687. This after 16 seperate UN resolutions calling for Iraq to comply. Iraq did not comply.

It was not an illegal invasion, as you claim.


As far as the US being a terrorist state under Bush, it is a reality that this belief exists in the world. Deny all you will. This is a real whether you own it or not. Be more careful about accusing others of being terrorist states.

Shut your cockholster.

Pasa

[tenni]

I had no idea what a cockholster was? I googled it. Funny.

hmmm Do I want to be Pasa's cockholster? Well, only if he will be my cockholster..:bigrin::cool:

[Hephaestion]

1) standard procedure..... trained professionals will be at ease at nighttime, but untrained civilians / protestors will not be as co ordinated....
there is also the possibility of closeness to the blockade line and it may have been a last minute action

2) to talk yes .... but they continued to sail forward....
they were asked to stop repeatedly and warned before they set sail, not to try and break the blockade..... how much more time did they need ????? another week ????

3) ahh I will argue that.... they fired across the bow, not at the ships, there is no footage showing any bullet impact marks on the ships.... I would expect that at least if shots were fired at the ships....

4) agreed and leave paint marks a bit like the * blood * that a journalist saw... that apparently turned out to be paint......
using paint balls would have been a way to turn and distract people and drive them back from the rappeling soliders....
btw thats not proven as what happened, but it would make sense and it can match the reports of shoots fired at the ship and paint on the rails....
but that would prove it was paintballs and not bullets that were fired at the ships

5) some of the protestors themselves made statements about that.... not the israelis, but the passengers on the ships... I am too lazy to look up the links again... but I recall the statements by protestors made within 2 days of the event, refering to the fact that the turkish protestors that attacked the soliders, never boarded at the same port the aid was loaded at, they boarded later at another port

6) how..... how would you stop them.... without disabling the ships....and risking everybody on body....

7) thats not disputed... the israelis boarded the ships, agreed...... but protestors using hostile force against soldiers is not a normal aspect of protestors or peaceful protest, its normally done by activists and extreme activists, not human aid protestors....

7) you put 7 twice.... but yes, loudhailers could be used... it doesn't mean that people will listen..... might makes right, a large loaded ship is not easy to stop and using loudhailers will not work that well when stopping ships, unless the captain gives the order to stop ship

8) nothing was found on board.... so the protestors had nothing to fear or hide...... yet they avoided stopping for a inspection
by defination would that give me the right to ignore police and fail to stop cos I have nothing to hide

9) nothing.... same as the protesters.... but I tend to think that you are like me...... not everything that is investigated, means that the truth is revealed either.....

people want to hear is that israel was wrong.....
not that the protesters acted in any manner that was wrong under the international aid laws that protected them..... but that israel was wrong...
and we both know that there will be a number of people not happy with any findings and rulings that find one or the other or both groups at fault.....

I say that if the ships had gone to port and being inspected, none of this would have happened, .... going to port may be right or wrong in peoples eyes.... but its a simple case of the deaths could have been avoided.....by a simple action.....

let the governments fight over if the blockade is legal or not.... the mission was to deliever aid to gaza and it would have got there without loss of life

1) OK so the people on board were terified. Innocents would be whereas militants / soldiers are unlikely to have been..

2) there was every right to continue sailing as they were in international waters and they deflected as an act of appeasement. Of course they were aware of the blockade and they were swayed by the inhumanity of it. Likely they expected the Israelis to be the kind generaous people that they claim to be.

3+4) paint splatters maybe. bullet marks who knows. The people on the boat wouldn't have got in the way to test this.

5 Being Turkish and on a Turlkish boat is not a crime. They could have been anything, including extra deck hands or the owners friends and not necessarily known to the people asked. Turks defending a Turkish boat against attack would be a natural consequence.

6) one chooses the moment to sail towards the boat and deflect. Ask the Royal Navy.

aplogies for the 2 sevens - over corrected double vision?

7a) This was an attack under cover of darkeness intentionally generating hysteria The passengers had every right to defend themselves especially in international waters. More than one boat was attacked.

7b) Loudhailers would have been a PR move to be overt in asking to stop and that would have informed the passengers to alay fear - but to alay fear and elicit cooperation wasn't the intention.

8) nothing on board = innocent. So why should they have been stopped or even inconvenienced. That is tantamount to being harassed for having curly hair and thick set lips because someone like that was involved in an incident.

9) if the Israelis have nothing to hide then they should be open. The fact that they are not being open means that they are trying hard to whitewash the events.

People do not want to hear that Israel was wrong as they are saying it for themselves in agreement with each other.

I agree, the mission was to deliver aid without mishap. That would have happened had the Israelis not created havoc.

Israel needs to change tactics for everyones good especially themselves.

.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Heph,

To date the Israelis have stopped nearly a hundred vessels in the past 18 months. All, but this one, without incident.

How do you explain that?

Pasa

[dardick]

I only read the first couple of pages of posts and am very impressed with the educated positions taken and lack of meat-head bashing of either side.

It is such a difficult issue. As a jewish person, I support Israel's place in the world, but in America, if one questions what the Israeli government does, you are labeled an antisemite. Just as the US was split over invading Iraq, Israeli's are split as to whether their government goes overboard in its actions.

However, how can Israel be demonized for checking boats for weapons while allowing aid supplies to come through. If Canada or Mexico launched ONE rocket into the US, the borders would be completely shut down and those countries would be reduced to a smoking crater. Now imagine thousands of rockets...

Not everything Israel does is right, but how can you blame them for this incident?

[Hephaestion]

Heph,

To date the Israelis have stopped nearly a hundred vessels in the past 18 months. All, but this one, without incident.

How do you explain that?

Pasa


I'll guess.

From the accumulated evidence, it would appear that the Iraelis were out to get particular people supected of being on that convoy. Nobody was going to stop their fun.

OR

Israel declaring how dare anynone think that they can do anything without Israeli permsssion even if it is innocent humanitarians from an ally. It's Israel versus the world and they are tough enough i.e they are on an ego trip.

OR

Maybe the odd 'enemy' body boosts party morale in domestic politics

OR

It's just a claim... one can carry on speculating

Maybe it's not one reason but combinations? Whatever the reason(s). It happened and it is criticised widely.

.

[Pasadenacpl2]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

yeah it could be misinformation..... but hey.. that would mean that every news source and video etc that people are linking to, watching, commenting on etc.... is mis information....

I mean I could be conned, it could be israeli commandoes sneaking into the gaza strip with rpgs and firing upon convoys in broad daylight, and not being detected at all by any other person in the gaza strip.....

but hang on a sec, I thought that the israelis only do night time attacks on unarmed, innocent protestors that are playing the drums with metal bars on ships that are lost at sea and not trying to break thru blockades....

sighs.... dammit, I am being conned so much.....

the protestors were not hitting the soldiers with bars, they were hugging them and offering to show them the lower decks the fast way.... and the blood was from the tomato sauce on the fish and chips

damm CNN and the other news sources for conning me so badly...... I now realise that there was no transport ships either, they were actually sail boats with nude blondes on board sharing drinks and cigars with bill Clinton

I may be sceptical.... but I am no idiot.....

reliable info such as the aid arranged by a pro islamic group with links to terrorist movements, is the first clue that something was up with the shipment...

700 protestors on a ship... how many of them were needed to unload it ????

media / reporters on board a mission aid ship..... yes I can support that and understand it...... but ahhhh why so many this time.... when most times there is a handful......

unless there is going to be a large media worthy event..... like the breaking of a blockade and the berthing in gaza of the ships ????

that is stuff that was going on, BEFORE the incident, that would indicate that something was going on... and had to have been arranged BEFORE the ships even sailed

Can it be that the Israelis like night time attacks on confined targets in preference? I am sure that their armaments work in the daylight also. Perhaps they get blinded by daylight; confused targets seem commonplace in western trained forces.

700 people - enough to carry a ship over a blockade maybe? or just lend a helping hand or as you suggest, be witnesses. If the last - it worked indicating that the Israelis are not so smart after all; and they still haven't understood the PR side of things.

Well tomato sauce was liberally spread over the passengers also. Oh wait. The sauce leaked from holes in their dead bodies. Whereas, the soldiers seemed not to have been shot. Seems hugging is not lethal.

If you've been conned by CNN I suggest complaining. I do symapthise.

.

[Hephaestion]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

It was the laminated identificaiton guide on who to look for

At least one other ship resisted but no deaths

[Pasadenacpl2]

and...source?

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

It was the laminated identificaiton guide on who to look for

At least one other ship resisted but no deaths

And your own words prove there was evidence of activists that were actually terrorists on that ship.

[Hephaestion]

And your own words prove there was evidence of activists that were actually terrorists on that ship.

Not so - the guide need not be accurate.

Sorry PAsa - the sources was the video

[Pasadenacpl2]

There have been a ton of them posted. Could you point me to the one you are referring to? I'd appreciate it.

I'm wondering why no one is talking about that, even on Globalsecurity.org.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There have been a ton of them posted. Could you point me to the one you are referring to? I'd appreciate it.

I'm wondering why no one is talking about that, even on Globalsecurity.org.

Pasa

posting #422 which points to a Globalsecurity video. There is a long video and a shorter extracted version. It is the 'document' written in hebrew that was found on one of the soldiers with pictures of people to be looked for - I think it said that in the comentary. It is definitely laminated as it catches the light. Elsewhere (non video) it was also said that the pictures were of people being sought by the Israelis on the Mavi Marmara (seen so much that like you I have trouble locating the reference).

On the video, it mentions that ship has altered course and they expect the Israelis to talk with them in the morning.

.

[darkeyes]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

Maybe if Israel released unedited all the film taken by those on board we would get some idea why Pasa.. perish the thought that it may cause them further embarrassment and show just who was really to blame.. just what was so different about this ship? It took 40 years to get the truth about Bloody Sunday.. must we wait that long to find out the truth about this? Just what are they so afraid of?

[Bluebiyou]

On a side note,
I'm impressed Fran brought up a topic so hot as it got 555 replies and about ten times that in views... in two weeks.
And no one's gotten barred/banned!!!

[Canticle]

DD
I agree with some of the statements that you have posted in post 536.

I agree that the civilians on these ships were making a political point and protest.

I agree that they knew that they would resist going to Ashdad port and that they were prepared for Israel to do something but I have no proof that they knew that some would die. Some of the 700 may have thought that there would be violence but I suspect many were doing a peaceful resistant act...like the US Martin Luther King and blacks from that era did. King knew that he may be injured and killed but that did not stop him from trying to change injustices that he believed that he saw. Contrary to your belief, I have information from a Canadian on the ship (the Kevin in the video) did not expect killings. He expected to be arrested and maybe pushed a bit. He was on the ship where the murders happened. He states that Israel fired on them before boarding. He was there.

I agree that the civilian activists wanted Israel to act or that they knew that Israel may act to prevent them. That is what some people do to get the world to pay attention to injustice. The purpose was for most to be a peaceful protest in a pacifist manner. After three years hundred set out to make the world more aware of the suffering of the Gazans and the injustice that Israel was doing. They seem to have some success but only time will tell.

The rest of your beliefs I do not agree with.

I am unclear about who is breaking international law. I know that Israel did not follow protocol for boarding a cargo ship in international waters according to a Canadian International law expert. I do not believe that Israel has the "right" to have this blockade. The world has not sanctioned this any more than the world sanctioned the US invasion of Iraq. The world did sanction the US invasion of Afghanistan. See the difference?

As far as the US being a terrorist state under Bush, it is a reality that this belief exists in the world. Deny all you will. This is real whether you own it or not. Be more careful about accusing others of being terrorist states.

A good post Tenni....not a lot more to add there....a good post.

DD.....I fear it is you that is caught in a rut, because you seem prepared to defend Israel, no matter what......and I have a feeling that nothing would or will ever change that.....even if they end up being villified by the entire world....excluding the USA, of course.

Doctored videos are evil and vicious propaganda and it doesn't who produces that propaganda and about what situation. That video really was a work of art.......it would win the Turner prize if entered as a piece of art work........but not truth or reality......it didn't show that.....only the Israeli video editor's warped sense of reality.

The rest of your post....you're just bringing up the same stuff...over and over....and it's already been commented upon.

[Canticle]

I only read the first couple of pages of posts and am very impressed with the educated positions taken and lack of meat-head bashing of either side.

It is such a difficult issue. As a jewish person, I support Israel's place in the world, but in America, if one questions what the Israeli government does, you are labeled an antisemite. Just as the US was split over invading Iraq, Israeli's are split as to whether their government goes overboard in its actions.

However, how can Israel be demonized for checking boats for weapons while allowing aid supplies to come through. If Canada or Mexico launched ONE rocket into the US, the borders would be completely shut down and those countries would be reduced to a smoking crater. Now imagine thousands of rockets...

Not everything Israel does is right, but how can you blame them for this incident?

But Gaza is not Canada or Mexico. There are no historical and on going problems, on the American continent, in the same way, as there are in the Middle East. It is not even a scenario that can be imagined, although I do realise why you brought up the comparison. Sadly, no comparison can be made.

Not demonised. Held to account. I'm not going to repeat anything. Sorry, but you'll have to read over 500 posts.

[darkeyes]

On a side note,
I'm impressed Fran brought up a topic so hot as it got 555 replies and about ten times that in views... in two weeks.
And no one's gotten barred/banned!!!

Don't b so impressed Blue hun.. I just feel so desperately sad that I felt it necessary to raise it.. and that this dreadful slaughter occurred in the first place.. and that there is no meeting of minds between two very differing camps and no apparent desire to even try.. and just who suffers while selfish nasty b****** play games with their lives..

[Long Duck Dong]

1) OK so the people on board were terified. Innocents would be whereas militants / soldiers are unlikely to have been..

2) there was every right to continue sailing as they were in international waters and they deflected as an act of appeasement. Of course they were aware of the blockade and they were swayed by the inhumanity of it. Likely they expected the Israelis to be the kind generaous people that they claim to be.

3+4) paint splatters maybe. bullet marks who knows. The people on the boat wouldn't have got in the way to test this.

5 Being Turkish and on a Turlkish boat is not a crime. They could have been anything, including extra deck hands or the owners friends and not necessarily known to the people asked. Turks defending a Turkish boat against attack would be a natural consequence.

6) one chooses the moment to sail towards the boat and deflect. Ask the Royal Navy.

aplogies for the 2 sevens - over corrected double vision?

7a) This was an attack under cover of darkeness intentionally generating hysteria The passengers had every right to defend themselves especially in international waters. More than one boat was attacked.

7b) Loudhailers would have been a PR move to be overt in asking to stop and that would have informed the passengers to alay fear - but to alay fear and elicit cooperation wasn't the intention.

8) nothing on board = innocent. So why should they have been stopped or even inconvenienced. That is tantamount to being harassed for having curly hair and thick set lips because someone like that was involved in an incident.

9) if the Israelis have nothing to hide then they should be open. The fact that they are not being open means that they are trying hard to whitewash the events.

People do not want to hear that Israel was wrong as they are saying it for themselves in agreement with each other.

I agree, the mission was to deliver aid without mishap. That would have happened had the Israelis not created havoc.

Israel needs to change tactics for everyones good especially themselves.

.

2) yes they did... I agree.... but they were stopped before they reached the blockage and within a more suitable range of ashdod harbour....
but the reason for stopping them in international waters, would have been to stop them sailing thru the blockade as that can be ruled as a intentional act of war......and change the status from aid ship, to enemy sea going vessel.....

3+4) bullets leave holes, paintballs generally don't...... plus bullets striking a boat and deflecting, would give off riccochet sounds..... something that paint ballls don't...and something very clear to the human ear..... its not a sound you can dismiss or mistake easily

5) yes again I agree...... but why are there only reports of turkish activists attacking armed soldiers, turkish activists being shoot and killed and no hostile resistance from other nationalities....
based around the videos and going on the clothing, it would appear that the people of other nationalities ran the other way, below decks.....including the reporters..... maybe cos that would match the reactions of not hostile protestors and activists, they were not looking for trouble, they were on a aid mission

6) indeed, I agree, the point of least resistance or the point where no other option is left.....

7a) yes again, I agree..... but the cover of darkness is often used for a rush raid, or the early hours of the morning, most law enforcement groups perfer early morning raids, most combat missions work at night..... cos there is better cover, and if you believe that you are facing hostile resistance, you would perfer the element of surprise and least resistance....

7b) yes, true.... but as you can see from the videos of activists armed with metal bars, they were waiting to be boarded..... now I have never been on a ship where passengers walk around with metal bars.... and generally most ships to not have stacks of metal bars laying around for passengers to get hold of freely.... and besides ship radio on a closed circuit, the captain could tell the passengers, that they are being boarded, please remain below decks and offer no resistance......

8) we know there was nothing on board now..... we did not at the time..... its the same as a police raid on a suspected drug house, they do not know that there is no drugs in the house, until they raid it..... 3

9) yes I agree.... but the truth is pretty much out there anyway.... its people that do not want to accept the truth, unless its their version....
israel may be hiding the fact that it was not just a ship boarding, they were also after suspected hamas sympathisers and terrorists....
that is conjecture but not at all, impossible....

and yes I agree, the mission was to deliever aid..... so why try and do it in a manner that was known to cause issues, when the israelis indicated they were more than happy for the aid to be delivered from ashdod port.....

there is another element tho.... if hamas will fire on a aid convoy by trucks.... is it at all possible that israel was trying to stop hamas having a target by ship....
in the scenerio that israel allowed the ships thru, and they were fired upon and people killed, quess who would get the blame for it.....
yes,.... israel for allowing ships into a known conflict zone.....

either way israel would be in the shit.... but they chose the lesser of two evils.....as of 700 passengers on board if the ship landed in gaza, how many would get back on board and sail out ???
600??? 500 ???? and how many would stay in gaza...?????

at the end of the day.... there is a lot more to the situation than people want to accept or see...... and either way, israel is the prime target for people to blame for everything.....

[DuckiesDarling]

A good post Tenni....not a lot more to add there....a good post.

DD.....I fear it is you that is caught in a rut, because you seem prepared to defend Israel, no matter what......and I have a feeling that nothing would or will ever change that.....even if they end up being villified by the entire world....excluding the USA, of course.

Doctored videos are evil and vicious propaganda and it doesn't who produces that propaganda and about what situation. That video really was a work of art.......it would win the Turner prize if entered as a piece of art work........but not truth or reality......it didn't show that.....only the Israeli video editor's warped sense of reality.

The rest of your post....you're just bringing up the same stuff...over and over....and it's already been commented upon.


And you just keep spouting the same thing. You don't agree with pictures or videos therefore they are either doctored or propaganda. You keep slamming Israel, I keep defending. End game. There is no way you can condone the actions of people who put over 700 lives at risk not to mention the lives of the soldiers. But you keep safe in your little bed while you type things you know nothing about regarding military actions and maybe someday you will be able to actually thank the men and women who put their lives on the line so you can sit safe in your little bed.

[tenni]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

[DuckiesDarling]

interesting....footage that is supposed to contradict the Israeli version sure seems to say the Israelis were right.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html

around 3 minutes into the video you see the person told they can't film in a place, then you see a man in a blue shirt speaking in Arabic to a group. The word that jumps out is Jihad. You see them preparing wooden sticks and knives and holding chains, you see them as anything other than peaceful. So thanks for posting that piece of propanganda, perhaps they need to edit a bit more closely next time instead of proving to the world they set out to cause an international incident and didn't care how many lives were lost in the process.

In fact, visisble towards the beginning of the video is the same man seen in other footage claiming he didn't get the chance to be a martyr last time, he hopes he can now.

[Long Duck Dong]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

interesting.....

ok I agree with you on the second video.... on a number of areas

1) the communications between a israeli naval officer and a turkish ships captain, the accents stand out to me....and the mannerism does too... they are too similiar...... but there is a discernable change in the voice of the turkish ship captains voice, as if there was two people, not one....
now I am assuming it was the turkish ship captain there..... I have no proof

2) unless its direct ship to ship communications ( phone not radio ) the connection is too clear, too lil static and in order to match the israeli side of things, it would have had to have been done BEFORE the israelis blocked the communications, just before they boarded the ship.....

3) the commentary is voice over, not a as it happens commentary.....( I am refering to the female commentary )

hep and pasas missing vids (http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html)

this is for hep and pasa, watch the second vid and you will see the displaying of the laminated pics about 5 pages of them....

but you will notice things like the firing of slingshots at the helicopters.....
at 30 meters I can kill a rabbit with a ball bearing fired from a slingshot.... if I can kill a rabbit, I can kill a human too
that disputes the no weapons on board theory right there..... as we are seeing it in footage from a person on board the ship... not a israeli news feed....

btw, the *blood * on the side of the ship.. is paint and you can clearly hear paint balls AND rubber bullets hitting the ship, cos there is no riccochet of metal bullets.....I know this as I used to do paint ball war games and I have used rubber bullet round war games in the army..... so I know the sounds well.....
its not blood cos the color is wrong... there was nobody shoot before the boarding, and there is too much colour and no body....
but you can see the soldiers start to rappel down to the ship after people point out the *blood *....

believe me, I have never managed to bleed from a cut finger 2 minutes before I have cut my finger....


and again, I am not doing this to support israel, or to be pro israel, its simply cos what is being said, do not match what we are seeing.....
no weapons on board, yet slingshots are weapons.... unless you are looking for bombs and guns.... and ruling out a slingshot as a weapon.....

I still have found no proof that the protestors were armed with guns that were thrown over the side of the ship..... but thats not surprising.... the video taken where the boarding took board is very selective, considering the number of cameras and reporters on board....
and we all know the number of cam ops that have put themselves in harms way in a war zone for the exclusive story....... so why so lil footage, and why so much below decks ????

btw the footage we see from on board the ships proves that the israelis did not confiscate all media from the ship as first claimed by the people on the ship.... unless * gasp * its all faked and propaganda..... how say ye, ranticle ?

[tenni]

DD
Re: post 562

I forgot that there was an edited down version. I wonder if you are referring to the unedited first video? I can see how it may be interpreted as the man waving his hands telling the the videomaker not to film or he may have been saying that a passenger is not allowed on that part of the cargo ship. I don't understand Arabic. Do you?

As to the man who is singing, I can see how that may also be interpreted as him saying jihad but it sounded more like a version of "jihadi". Remember the real meaning for jihad is not what we in the West have come to put on the word. The paper in his hand is being used as a reference as if it was a song and probably a protest type. I do not speak Arabic. Some in the crowd joined in on the chorus while others just looked at him holding the mike. The chorus didn't have the word that you referred to. It seemed like "beladi, beladi". Yes,the man was being a cheer leader encouraging others to do what they were there for. So did Martin Luther King.

Again, it is your interpretation. To you it is propaganda. If it is, it is very unprofessional and poorly done. Who do you think that the video was intended for?

Did this man claim that he didn't get a chance to be a martyr before or after he was singing? I can not find the footage. What time code is it at or was it a different video?

[Long Duck Dong]

DD
Re: post 562


Did this man claim that he didn't get a chance to be a martyr before or after he was singing? I can not find the footage. What time code is it at or was it a different video?

its in this one tenni... the guy states it in english, .....not arabic

martyr vid (http://lucianne.com/article/?pageid=real_story_of_the_gaza_convoy)

[mariersa]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious! :(

[Pasadenacpl2]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious! :(

due to confidentiality rules with the nz army, I can not reveal some information so I tell people that I did not see combat, its just easier that way.....
but yes I can say that the experience learnt, has been put to use in real situations ( army and civilian situations ) and in some cases, lives have been lost.... thats all I will say about that

the following is what i refer to in the thread as experience in fields

trained and certified communications tech ( radio and communication, civilian and armed forces, RT / CB, closed and open, short and long range comm, land and ship based.... I am referring to field work, not being stuck behind a desk doing paperwork )

training and expertise in weaponry, armaments and ammunition, weapon smithing etc ( army and civilian training, including rifle and pistol club, deer hunters lodge )

training and expertise in field medics, certified first aid, experience as volunteer fire fighter and bush fire fighting, also certified civil defence ( nz disaster relief )

parachuting, hand gliding, abseiling, rappelling, mountaineering ( army and civilian / search and rescue )

civilian seafaring / maritime / ship work

map work / topographical work / survey work, strategy and logistics analysis ( army and civilian work )

hand to hand, close combat and short distance, weapons ( army and civilian... think martial arts, I hold a 3rd dan black belt and I used to instruct self defence )

I grew up with a father that is ex airforce ( served in malay, singapore ) and a step father that is ex nam, and I had their field manuals and experiences, military field knowledge and bush survival beaten into me..... by the time I started in scouts, I could plan, manage and deal with any issues with a week long scout camp, including emergency evac.... I was 13..

[AdamKadmon43]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

WOW... you are really one bad-ass dude, aren't you...

[Hephaestion]

2) yes they did... I agree.... but they were stopped before they reached the blockage and within a more suitable range of ashdod harbour....
but the reason for stopping them in international waters, would have been to stop them sailing thru the blockade as that can be ruled as a intentional act of war......and change the status from aid ship, to enemy sea going vessel.....

3+4) bullets leave holes, paintballs generally don't...... plus bullets striking a boat and deflecting, would give off riccochet sounds..... something that paint ballls don't...and something very clear to the human ear..... its not a sound you can dismiss or mistake easily

5) yes again I agree...... but why are there only reports of turkish activists attacking armed soldiers, turkish activists being shoot and killed and no hostile resistance from other nationalities....
based around the videos and going on the clothing, it would appear that the people of other nationalities ran the other way, below decks.....including the reporters..... maybe cos that would match the reactions of not hostile protestors and activists, they were not looking for trouble, they were on a aid mission

6) indeed, I agree, the point of least resistance or the point where no other option is left.....

7a) yes again, I agree..... but the cover of darkness is often used for a rush raid, or the early hours of the morning, most law enforcement groups perfer early morning raids, most combat missions work at night..... cos there is better cover, and if you believe that you are facing hostile resistance, you would perfer the element of surprise and least resistance....

7b) yes, true.... but as you can see from the videos of activists armed with metal bars, they were waiting to be boarded..... now I have never been on a ship where passengers walk around with metal bars.... and generally most ships to not have stacks of metal bars laying around for passengers to get hold of freely.... and besides ship radio on a closed circuit, the captain could tell the passengers, that they are being boarded, please remain below decks and offer no resistance......

8) we know there was nothing on board now..... we did not at the time..... its the same as a police raid on a suspected drug house, they do not know that there is no drugs in the house, until they raid it..... 3

9) yes I agree.... but the truth is pretty much out there anyway.... its people that do not want to accept the truth, unless its their version....
israel may be hiding the fact that it was not just a ship boarding, they were also after suspected hamas sympathisers and terrorists....
that is conjecture but not at all, impossible....

and yes I agree, the mission was to deliever aid..... so why try and do it in a manner that was known to cause issues, when the israelis indicated they were more than happy for the aid to be delivered from ashdod port.....

there is another element tho.... if hamas will fire on a aid convoy by trucks.... is it at all possible that israel was trying to stop hamas having a target by ship....
in the scenerio that israel allowed the ships thru, and they were fired upon and people killed, quess who would get the blame for it.....
yes,.... israel for allowing ships into a known conflict zone.....

either way israel would be in the shit.... but they chose the lesser of two evils.....as of 700 passengers on board if the ship landed in gaza, how many would get back on board and sail out ???
600??? 500 ???? and how many would stay in gaza...?????

at the end of the day.... there is a lot more to the situation than people want to accept or see...... and either way, israel is the prime target for people to blame for everything.....


LDD - you are a man of undying faith. Under a different set of circumstances, I suspect that you would do great justice to the crescent moon.

Warm regards

H.

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly hep, I am torn between my military background, my views as a person that wants to see the aid get to the people that need it..... and a overwhelming curiosity to know the full facts of what happened, but not to lay the blame with any body or any side.... but to just find out what happened....

either way, I still stand on my stance, there is blame on both sides, not one
so I hold both sides responsible for what happened, not one side..... and I stand by the stance that it could have been avoided.....if the ships has just sailed to ashdod port, regardless of if people believe that would have been the right thing to do or not.... the simple fact is, it would have saved lives

[Canticle]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious! :(

Good post! I had a boss, when I worked, who told everyonr he had trained commandos in WWII, and taught them how to kill. He's had a desk job and never left the country. Whereas i had an uncle who was in the 8th Army, had friends blown to pieces around him and came out of that war with bad memories and severe deafness.

[Canticle]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

Have to echo the post above. The sad thing is, you actually seem proud of that violent streak, you keep telling us about. no one would diss your service in the Gulf. You were doing your job, just as soldiers are doing today.

[Canticle]

And you just keep spouting the same thing. You don't agree with pictures or videos therefore they are either doctored or propaganda. You keep slamming Israel, I keep defending. End game. There is no way you can condone the actions of people who put over 700 lives at risk not to mention the lives of the soldiers. But you keep safe in your little bed while you type things you know nothing about regarding military actions and maybe someday you will be able to actually thank the men and women who put their lives on the line so you can sit safe in your little bed.

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

[DuckiesDarling]

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

[Long Duck Dong]

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

ok can I please have the nz police force wiped out...... seriously they place my life at risk when I decide to fail to stop at a drink driving check point... and that could result in my death and others, even tho i know that they have check points to stop drinking drivers....

they are doing their job, they know that there is a risk that I will break the nz law on drinking and driving... but I should have the right to run them down cos I do not like them infringing on my * self imposed * right to drink and drive...... the fact that I risk others on the road by my actions, means nothing.... as its about what I want to do, even if the result is somebody else dies.....


but wait, I respect the police even tho I do not always agree with the way they do things..... they do the best they can in the face of shit from people, in order to try and keep other drivers safe on the road

ranticle, you remind me of the people in nz that blame the police every time they try to pull over speeding / drink driving assholes, that cause a accident resulting in injury or death cos they speed away from the police cos they know they are in deep shit if they get caught......

maybe you would like to join the green party in nz, the government group that opposed the police having and using tasers.... they are the same group that strangely went very quiet when 3 policeman and one civilian was shot last year in nz by a gunman, and a cop died....... cos they didn't have a taser that could have saved the cops life.... stopped a 3 day shooting spree, endangered more than 50 people.... and resulted in the gunman taking his own life......

at the end of the day, you can blame the israelis under you turn blue in the face.... but, you have to admit that if the aid was handled by the red cross, and shipped to ashdod port, like most shipments are, that nobody would have died on the ships....... actually you do not have to admit it at all..... there is more than enuf people in the world that understand that well enuf to have not tried to break the blockage.... and we know that, cos they are on the other ships that transport aid to gaza, without loss of life

[Long Duck Dong]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

[darkeyes]

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

The more Fran learns about this, the more she is curious.. the more she sees parallels with another place where even more people were attacked by paratroopers while on a demo.. a place where all the film of the time shows intimidation by a mob.. where those paratroopers claimed they were shot at and attacked.. where a Government backed them up and claimed that those self same paratroopers were responding to having been shot at and attacked.. where the people of the country in whose name they killed all those demonstrators buried their heads in the sand and did not believe that their nice boys would attack and butcher 13 people without provocation.. and where 40 years later the truth did come out and those self same paratroopers have been damned by history and the weight of evidence, and three Prime Ministers have had no option but to apologise to the families of the dead..

.. I keep harping back on this.. but it is important.. why doesnt Israel release the film of the incident, unedited taken by those on board the ship journalist and activist.. what has been shown is important...but without the film taken by those on board.. suspicion will always be on the Israeli's that they went overboard so to speak, and acted just as those other soldiers in another place all those years ago.. why, if they have nothing to fear?

[darkeyes]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

One thing at a time Duckie darlin'.. no 1 has a crystal ball and can tell what will happen.. I don't accept the prophecy such as it is.. often doing the right thing has many unexpected and unpleasant consequences.. but unless Israel and the Palestinians do come to agreement an things are sorted out, my fear is that that fullscale war is almost inevitable with savage and very scary consequences for us all.. one thing is certain.. the present situation is certainly unnacceptable and is causing nothing but greater bitterness and misery..

[Long Duck Dong]

there is a lot of footage taken on board that has been shared in the thread.....
but like the israeli footage, its not all the footage.... its selected footage....

thats normal, I would expect it from both sides.... but the only story that is consistent, is the israeli side......
the protestors have claimed that all the footage was taken by the israelis ( yet we are watching it online )....

that bullets were fired at the ships.... ( yes protestors were shot on the ships but no proof of bullets fired at the ships, only paint balls )

that the protestors were manhandled and treated like PoW's ( yes 17 hours is a lifetime compared to people held for 4-5 years )

that the israelis shot at the protestors and used unreasonable force ( yet protestors on the other ships talk about assisting the israelis on board from their boats......

there is something bugging me fran, and its based around what the protestors show in one of the videos, its the laminated IDs .... I am beginning to wonder if the boarding the ships was not about just stopping the ships, I am beginning to wonder if they were also after suspected or known militant extremists that were hoping to get into the gaza strip to assist and aid with the attacks on israel.....

from the start, something has not rang true with the boarding.... and its not just been the way the turkish protestors acted....... if that is the case, yes israel has something to hide or avoid talking about...... and that would support your PoV that the truth is not being told....

[darkeyes]

Have to echo the post above. The sad thing is, you actually seem proud of that violent streak, you keep telling us about. no one would diss your service in the Gulf. You were doing your job, just as soldiers are doing today.

He is..either that or he is talking through his backside.. or both..;)

[Pasadenacpl2]

So, which part am I lying about, Fran? Specifically?

Am I lying about being a member of a rennie combat organization?
Am I lying about doing so for nearly 2 decades?
Am I lying about being knighted within the organization (twice, I might add)?
Am I lying about being attacked?
Am I lying about the result?
Am I lying about my service during the Gulf War?
Am I lying about pipes being lethal weapons?

Get specific. Don't be coy, and don't hide behind your boot girl speak. Be very, very specific about which thing I said that is a lie.

@Adam. Nope. I'm not a bad ass. I'm considered upper middle tier as a sword fighter. I hold my own, and that's about it. And that's sorta the point. In even a mildly competent person's hands, a pipe becomes a very deadly weapon.

@Canticle Am I violent? No. Am I willing to be? Yes. Am I proud? Depends on the situation. I don't see violence as something to be eschewed, or to be reviled.

But, the violence itself was not the point of my post. Either you knew that and decided to try to twist it to make yet another attack on me, or you didn't catch the point. I'm going to be a bit more magnanimous than usual and assume you just didn't catch it. The point was: Those people, on that boat, were armed and using deadly weapons. That no IDF died does not change that.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

If they drop the blockade, the shipments of arms is a forgone conclusion. Anyone who says different (that we just don't know) is delusional. Iran and Syria have been supplying them with arms for 20 years. We know this. It's documented all over the place. That's like taking a loaded pistol, firing 4 rounds and then turning it on yourself saying 'I don't know that if I pull the trigger a round will come out of the gun and kill me.' It's worse stupidity than Russian Roulette.

I'll side with Israel. I'll side with them against Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and anyone else who wants to get in the scrum with them. Honestly, if they are that stupid, they deserve what's coming to them.

Iran had better hope that this turns correctly. For all of their blustering, they HAVE to know that they are target #1. They have to know that their nation will be turned into a nuclear wasteland. No one, especially Israel, will waste the personnel to try to fight Iran across Iranian geography. They'll take the easier route, the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

In reference to the video. You have to remember, Tenni, that I was being sort of.....sarcastic.....not well worded ....perhaps.

[tenni]

It is interesting how posters get involved in hurt feelings etc. and begin not to stay on topic. just a thought.

The reports indicate now that Israel will permit a wider range of materials being brought into Gaza if it is supervised by Internationals at the Egypt /Gaza border...or other land access points maybe. It has not been offically declared. Israel still wants to keep the sea blockade though.

The injustice of holding people hostage without civil rights in Gaza and Palestine continues to be Israel's position. There still seems to be a duality of expectations from Israel. Gazan's and Paletstinians are not Israel citizens with full voting rights to be represented in the Kineset. Arabs holding Israeli citizenship because they live /born in Israel but outside of Gaza and Palestine do have some voting rights. I believe that they have municipal voting rights but not national voting rights. Now, it is also possible that the Palestinians may refuse this right of citizenship in hopes of being sovereign. They do have their own governments in Gaza & Palestine that they vote in democratically. It has been a long time of various changes and demands that it gets confusing.

I may be wrong with my perspective in the above paragraph though. If I'm correct , there definitely is an Apartheid approach to non Jewish people who are semites within this territory. Israel claims Gasa as its own territory and that it has the right to blockade it but denies civil rights to those living in these two territories. It is unjust.

If Iran, etc. may not supply weapons to Gaza then the US & other countries providng aid used for military purposes to Israel should stop providing funding and weapons to Israel. Sadly, the US & Canadian etc. politics seems to prevent this.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

[tenni]

Please expand upon your thought so that I do not misinterpret "moral equivalence"?


That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

..in your opinion...

[Canticle]

interesting....footage that is supposed to contradict the Israeli version sure seems to say the Israelis were right.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html

around 3 minutes into the video you see the person told they can't film in a place, then you see a man in a blue shirt speaking in Arabic to a group. The word that jumps out is Jihad. You see them preparing wooden sticks and knives and holding chains, you see them as anything other than peaceful. So thanks for posting that piece of propanganda, perhaps they need to edit a bit more closely next time instead of proving to the world they set out to cause an international incident and didn't care how many lives were lost in the process.

In fact, visisble towards the beginning of the video is the same man seen in other footage claiming he didn't get the chance to be a martyr last time, he hopes he can now.

I am beginning to believe that people will see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe, even when watching a video...be it the very long raw footage, or a shorter, edited form.

It is not a sinister sign, if cameramen were asked not to film in a certain area. This was a sea going vessel, a reasonably large one and it is only to be expected, that for their own safety and for the safety of other passengers and the crew, certain areas would be out of bounds. It doesn't mean, that the camera crew were stopped from filming some ''arms fashioning,'' part of the ship.

The gentleman in the blue shirt was reading something and ended with some song. Yes, the word ''jihad,'' was plainly heard. Have you researched the word ''jihad'' ? I typed into Google, the following, ''the true meaning of the word 'jihad.' '' There are, obviously, many, many links, which will come up in any one search. Here are a few.....explaining the many meanings, usages and connotations, of the word 'jihad.'

http://www.mediamonitors.net/shaziamirza2.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/ahmedmotiar1.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/10259

http://www.people.howstuffworks.com/jihad.htm

http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=2

http://www.muslim.org/islam/jihad.htm

Now, there are loads of different links to read, some written by Muslims, some not, but the ones which I have read, all mention 'jihad,' as meaning a struggle......whether that be spiritual or temporal. It does not mean a ''holy war.''

The hour long, raw footage of video, does indeed, show people holding sticks and bars. I will have to look even closer, for I have yet to see knives or chains. From soon after the Israeli troops landing upon the ship, it becomes obvious, that people were getting injured and not by painball guns being fired at them.

I would suggest that the people upon the aid ship had as much right to bear arms, as did revolutionary forces in the 13 colonies. So if there was a jihad, it took place upon that ship, with people struggling against a heinous foe. It could also be said, that the Israeli attack, upon a humanitarian aid ship, was deliberately planned, to cause such a reaction, from people who were not necessarily aboard ship, to instigate hostilities, but to merely deliver aid to Gaza.....but people who WERE prepared to defend themselves. Something you seem to believe, they had no right to do.

I also Googled the word 'martyr,' and tried desperately to find a non religious site, where a more secular meaning to the word, could be found.

I grew up hearing that word, 'martyr,' quite a lot. It was a word found in my highly intelligent mother's vocabulary. When she used it, there was no religious connotation inferred.

It was often used to describe someone who was a martyr to the situation that they were in, when there was a clear way out of it. A martyr to their misery, usually self-inflicted. A martyr to being treated badly by others.

A martyr to the evils of too much alcohol. A martyr to being controlled and enabled by another person. A martyr to desires, that brought that person no happiness, just the company of the lowest of the low.

A martyr, because some people, tend to wallow in such situations.

I have always considered that to use this word, 'martyr,' in a purely religious inference, is wrong. Perhaps that is what happens to some extremist Muslims. They confuse the true meaning of the word, with religion and politics and think of the word 'martyr,' or of 'jihad,' in totally the wrong light.

If the word 'jihad,' means 'struggle,' then we have all had our own very personal jihad. If the word 'martyr,' really means witness (or perhaps, experience), then we have all had our own, very personal martyrdom.

http://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructions/definitions/martyr.html

[Canticle]

its in this one tenni... the guy states it in english, .....not arabic

martyr vid (http://lucianne.com/article/?pageid=real_story_of_the_gaza_convoy)

And you are mis-understanding the meaning of the word martyr or shahid(shaheed) and the word jihad.

[Canticle]

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

I have a clue. You are so pro-Israel, you will never see the bigger picture. The attacks on soldiers, were defence. It was the soldiers who landed upon the ship, not the people on the ship, upon the helicopter.

[darkeyes]

So, which part am I lying about, Fran? Specifically?

Am I lying about being a member of a rennie combat organization?
Am I lying about doing so for nearly 2 decades?
Am I lying about being knighted within the organization (twice, I might add)?
Am I lying about being attacked?
Am I lying about the result?
Am I lying about my service during the Gulf War?
Am I lying about pipes being lethal weapons?

Get specific. Don't be coy, and don't hide behind your boot girl speak. Be very, very specific about which thing I said that is a lie.

@Adam. Nope. I'm not a bad ass. I'm considered upper middle tier as a sword fighter. I hold my own, and that's about it. And that's sorta the point. In even a mildly competent person's hands, a pipe becomes a very deadly weapon.

@Canticle Am I violent? No. Am I willing to be? Yes. Am I proud? Depends on the situation. I don't see violence as something to be eschewed, or to be reviled.

But, the violence itself was not the point of my post. Either you knew that and decided to try to twist it to make yet another attack on me, or you didn't catch the point. I'm going to be a bit more magnanimous than usual and assume you just didn't catch it. The point was: Those people, on that boat, were armed and using deadly weapons. That no IDF died does not change that.

Pasa

I did not say you were lying.. if you care to read what I said, I merely agreed with Canticle.. and observed that you do seem inordinately proud of being a macho thoroughly unpleasant type who gloried in the possibilities for all sorts of potential human destruction to anyone you don't like.. much of your talk I see and hear every day at work.. macho boys who are in reality little scared boys who talk tough only.. I don't know which you are.. you do.. it was not an accusation of lying, but an observation that you talk like one who may be.. or are bragging about attributes you do have..or maybe a bit of both.

Whichever I'm not fussed.. I actually take you on face value.. therefore I judge you a braggart and a bully with an extremely thin skin.. a thoroughly unedifying thing in a big brave boy.. of course I may be very wrong and you are not as I think you are.. but nothing you have written so far can make me change my mind on that...

[Canticle]

''ok can I please have the nz police force wiped out...... seriously they place my life at risk when I decide to fail to stop at a drink driving check point... and that could result in my death and others, even tho i know that they have check points to stop drinking drivers....

they are doing their job, they know that there is a risk that I will break the nz law on drinking and driving... but I should have the right to run them down cos I do not like them infringing on my * self imposed * right to drink and drive...... the fact that I risk others on the road by my actions, means nothing.... as its about what I want to do, even if the result is somebody else dies.....


but wait, I respect the police even tho I do not always agree with the way they do things..... they do the best they can in the face of shit from people, in order to try and keep other drivers safe on the road

ranticle, you remind me of the people in nz that blame the police every time they try to pull over speeding / drink driving assholes, that cause a accident resulting in injury or death cos they speed away from the police cos they know they are in deep shit if they get caught......

maybe you would like to join the green party in nz, the government group that opposed the police having and using tasers.... they are the same group that strangely went very quiet when 3 policeman and one civilian was shot last year in nz by a gunman, and a cop died....... cos they didn't have a taser that could have saved the cops life.... stopped a 3 day shooting spree, endangered more than 50 people.... and resulted in the gunman taking his own life......''

I'm not a Green part member. I'm not a member of any political party. I'm a Socialist and I'm my kind of Socialist.......same as I am my kind of Christian. I think for myself and don't follow the flock.

Guess what...I don't think police officers should carry tasers, nor guns. But, heck, you knew I was going to say that.

''at the end of the day, you can blame the israelis under you turn blue in the face.... but, you have to admit that if the aid was handled by the red cross, and shipped to ashdod port, like most shipments are, that nobody would have died on the ships....... actually you do not have to admit it at all..... there is more than enuf people in the world that understand that well enuf to have not tried to break the blockage.... and we know that, cos they are on the other ships that transport aid to gaza, without loss of life''

When it comes to the rest of the population of the world......I don't give a toss if they do not agree with me. I'm an individual.......never brainwashed by any religion or political party......never influenced by heroes and heroines......never that impressed with the good or bad people do........I take things as I find them. Mind you, there are some people in this world, who deliberately use, abuse and hurt people and run with the ''devil,'' (I don't believe in the devil...hence the quotation marks).

Save me the waffle LDD. I know you have a keen mind and a good spirit.

One question......how long is it, since you were in the forces?

Love and light.

C

[Hephaestion]

Ladies and gentle and not so gentlemen.

Yesterday "....The Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, has said Israel's recent raid on ships trying to deliver aid to the Gaza Strip has destroyed any chance of peace in the region for the foreseeable future...."

Today Israel promised to relax the the blockade on Gaza and to allow in more of the things that were required to sustain the populaiton and to rebuild the place.

"....Israel has announced it is easing the blockade of Gaza, to allow more civilian goods to enter the Palestinian territory It comes amid growing international pressure to end the embargo after an Israeli commando raid on an aid flotilla attempting to break the naval blockade of Gaza last month...."

A very sensible concessionon Israel's part.

The devil is in the detail and the world is watching.

.

[Canticle]

I did not say you were lying.. if you care to read what I said, I merely agreed with Canticle.. and observed that you do seem inordinately proud of being a macho thoroughly unpleasant type who gloried in the possibilities for all sorts of potential human destruction to anyone you don't like.. much of your talk I see and hear every day at work.. macho boys who are in reality little scared boys who talk tough only.. I don't know which you are.. you do.. it was not an accusation of lying, but an observation that you talk like one who may be.. or are bragging about attributes you do have..or maybe a bit of both.

Whichever I'm not fussed.. I actually take you on face value.. therefore I judge you a braggart and a bully with an extremely thin skin.. a thoroughly unedifying thing in a big brave boy.. of course I may be very wrong and you are not as I think you are.. but nothing you have written so far can make me change my mind on that...


I was too polite to say all that.....:tong:

[Canticle]

''If they drop the blockade, the shipments of arms is a forgone conclusion. Anyone who says different (that we just don't know) is delusional. Iran and Syria have been supplying them with arms for 20 years. We know this. It's documented all over the place. That's like taking a loaded pistol, firing 4 rounds and then turning it on yourself saying 'I don't know that if I pull the trigger a round will come out of the gun and kill me.' It's worse stupidity than Russian Roulette.''

Exactly...no one knows.......especially Israel.....but we do know what Israel is capable of......and it's not nice.

''I'll side with Israel. I'll side with them against Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and anyone else who wants to get in the scrum with them. Honestly, if they are that stupid, they deserve what's coming to them.''

Why will you side with Israel......against anyone who wants to get in a scrum with them? Do you think that Israel, is never responsible for any attrocities? Do you, as a free thinking (?), individual, believe this, or do you just believe years and years of US government policy?

''Iran had better hope that this turns correctly. For all of their blustering, they HAVE to know that they are target #1. They have to know that their nation will be turned into a nuclear wasteland. No one, especially Israel, will waste the personnel to try to fight Iran across Iranian geography. They'll take the easier route, the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.''

Oh, do leave it out. Iran will be turned into a nuclear wasteland? Did you have any breakfast? You really believe that the rest of the world would tolerate a nuclear attack, by the US, upon Iran. not only attacking another sovereign nation and the cradle of religious civilisation, but also throwing the world into WWIII????? You believe that??? Maybe you do. Maybe you really do. I guess that way, you'd be getting your non-existent and never going to happen, Last day of Judgement.

:eek:''the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.'':eek:

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.
Fran...you're right..... Pasa talks out of his nether regions. :rolleyes:

[Pasadenacpl2]

I was too polite to say all that.....:tong:

No, you just waited for someone else to say it so you could say 'good post.' So polite of you.

I'll post my reply to your complete butchering of logic in the other post when I'm not posting from a phone.

Pasa

[Canticle]

No, you just waited for someone else to say it so you could say 'good post.' So polite of you.

I'll post my reply to your complete butchering of logic in the other post when I'm not posting from a phone.

Pasa

You do that Pasa....if it keeps you busy!

As for your first sentence.....:wiggle2: :bounce: :yikes2: :mohawk: :frog: :smilies15: :rolleyes: :bigrin: cos it doesn't deserve an answer............

[DuckiesDarling]

I have a clue. You are so pro-Israel, you will never see the bigger picture. The attacks on soldiers, were defence. It was the soldiers who landed upon the ship, not the people on the ship, upon the helicopter.

And you are definitely Anti-Israel, as stated by all your posts. So I'd say you still don't have a clue, you are so convinced that any piece of footage that is rolled out is propaganda. And the Arabic meaning of Jihad as used by the Hamas and other Arab groups towards Israel is "holy war". And the guy obviously wanted to be a martyr, standard definition is die for a cause and be remembered hell even canonized for his death.

So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?

[Canticle]

And you are definitely Anti-Israel, as stated by all your posts. So I'd say you still don't have a clue, you are so convinced that any piece of footage that is rolled out is propaganda. And the Arabic meaning of Jihad as used by the Hamas and other Arab groups towards Israel is "holy war". And the guy obviously wanted to be a martyr, standard definition is die for a cause and be remembered hell even canonized for his death.

So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?

I am not anti Israel. I am anti some of the things that Israel does. I am totally anti any terrorism, as should we all be and against any attacks on the state of Israel.

I have as much clue as you, or anyone else. Yes, I do believe that the Israeli video, is pure propaganda. I won't change my mind on that. Like Fran says (and she has been just as critical of Israel, so why the attitude difference), if Israel releases all the video, confiscated, uncut...then the rest of the world would be able to see the evidence. I'm not happy to see carefully edited pieces of video and accept that as truth. If you are, then you cannot really be bothered, about the exact truth of what went on.

So, you won't look at links explaining the different meanings of 'jihad.' Why is that? I have looked at every link posted here. Is it that you have already made up your mind, that what is written will be rubbish, or can you not bear to look deeper into something.

Hamas (Hammas), may well mean a holy war, when they use the word 'jihad,' but people writing in those links, Muslims, say that is a wrong and an evil interpretation of the word. As for the guy in the video. From those few words, you cannot possibly know, exactly what he meant. No one can, but him.

''So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?''

No, I won't spare you my wordy replies. I'll express myself, how I wish. I would never want, the way another person posted, to change. If you don't want to see my posts, because they don't agree with you, then put me on ignore. I've never thought that the three wise monkeys approach, was a sensible one, myself.

Do you really think that Israel might drop a nuclear bomb. Wow, if they did, it would show them to be an extremely dangerous country. What a ridiculous thing to say. It would not only be Gaza that was obliterated. Israel would not last very long, or have you forgotten about all the other nuclear countries in the area.....apart from the fall out, over Israel itself.

You obviously think it's Ok for israel, as a Middle Eastern country to have nuclear weapons. If that is the case. If it's Ok for Israel to have them, then it should be Ok for any country to have them.

I have thought, from the very beginning of this thread, that you seem to be taking this event and any criticism of Israel, very personally. I have noticed that. You come over as so angry and so very angry that others will not support Israel, in this instance.

I have no hatred of Israel or any other country in the area. On any other issue, I would probably support Israel and not another party. However, on this point, like many others, I do not.

I don't believe that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza. If there is any blockade, this should be carried out by the UN. Maybe if the UN was in charge of searching aid ships, then those on board, would not feel that any blockade, needed breaking.

If Gaza is going to ever be a land, which can look after itself and it's people, it needs industry, it needs to feel free. Hamas may not be a good force, but they were elected and many Palestinians, see them as the only grouping, who are willing to fight for them. And if the Jews have a right to fight for their existence.....so do the Palestinians. And why should the Palestinians, or any other country or people, accept peace, only on Israel's terms.

So you ignore my links. I can't say that I am not surprised. Just a little saddened.

[hardnbubbly]

Wow.. everytime I check this there is are pages and pages of comments posted back. Anyway here (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/2010614102758862244.html) is an interesting article stating why THE RED CROSS describes the Israeli blockade of Gaza as a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

I hope this a good enough answer to those who are saying that Israel is providing aid to Gaza. That is Israel is not an occupying power.

Of course if you choose to bury your head in the sand its up to :).

[hardnbubbly]

American Jews for a Just Peace is to Co-Sponsor Jewish Boat to Gaza. [link] (http://www.ajjp.org/jewishboat)

[Long Duck Dong]

Wow.. everytime I check this there is are pages and pages of comments posted back. Anyway here (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/2010614102758862244.html) is an interesting article stating why THE RED CROSS describes the Israeli blockade of Gaza as a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

I hope this a good enough answer to those who are saying that Israel is providing aid to Gaza. That is Israel is not an occupying power.

Of course if you choose to bury your head in the sand its up to :).

yet a more recent law, which I have posted, the international humanitarian aid law, supersedes the 4th geneva convention by stating the definations and guidelines for aid transportation, classification of enemy / netural / aid ships, planes, vehicles etc, the rules of engagement etc etc

aid is known to be getting thru from egypt to gaza thru tunnels, and that is where a lot of the weapons is getting thru to.......

even israel has acknowledged that the tunnels exist and will not move to close them......

the bloackade may be a violation of the 4th geneva convention in the red cross eyes.... but why it is there ??? its there to stop the transportation of weapons and minimise blood shed.....

[Long Duck Dong]

And you are mis-understanding the meaning of the word martyr or shahid(shaheed) and the word jihad.

I am misunderstanding english ???? read my bloody post, tenni asked where a person said something in a video...... he asked DD about it.... so I posted the link for it

I never mentioned jihad or referred to it and nor did I suggest what the person was refering to or saying......

if you are going to tell me I am wrong on something, please make sure I was actually talking about it in the first place.... ie JIHAD

[DuckiesDarling]

I am not anti Israel. I am anti some of the things that Israel does. I am totally anti any terrorism, as should we all be and against any attacks on the state of Israel.

I have as much clue as you, or anyone else. Yes, I do believe that the Israeli video, is pure propaganda. I won't change my mind on that. Like Fran says (and she has been just as critical of Israel, so why the attitude difference), if Israel releases all the video, confiscated, uncut...then the rest of the world would be able to see the evidence. I'm not happy to see carefully edited pieces of video and accept that as truth. If you are, then you cannot really be bothered, about the exact truth of what went on.

So, you won't look at links explaining the different meanings of 'jihad.' Why is that? I have looked at every link posted here. Is it that you have already made up your mind, that what is written will be rubbish, or can you not bear to look deeper into something.

Hamas (Hammas), may well mean a holy war, when they use the word 'jihad,' but people writing in those links, Muslims, say that is a wrong and an evil interpretation of the word. As for the guy in the video. From those few words, you cannot possibly know, exactly what he meant. No one can, but him.

''So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?''

No, I won't spare you my wordy replies. I'll express myself, how I wish. I would never want, the way another person posted, to change. If you don't want to see my posts, because they don't agree with you, then put me on ignore. I've never thought that the three wise monkeys approach, was a sensible one, myself.

Do you really think that Israel might drop a nuclear bomb. Wow, if they did, it would show them to be an extremely dangerous country. What a ridiculous thing to say. It would not only be Gaza that was obliterated. Israel would not last very long, or have you forgotten about all the other nuclear countries in the area.....apart from the fall out, over Israel itself.

You obviously think it's Ok for israel, as a Middle Eastern country to have nuclear weapons. If that is the case. If it's Ok for Israel to have them, then it should be Ok for any country to have them.

I have thought, from the very beginning of this thread, that you seem to be taking this event and any criticism of Israel, very personally. I have noticed that. You come over as so angry and so very angry that others will not support Israel, in this instance.

I have no hatred of Israel or any other country in the area. On any other issue, I would probably support Israel and not another party. However, on this point, like many others, I do not.

I don't believe that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza. If there is any blockade, this should be carried out by the UN. Maybe if the UN was in charge of searching aid ships, then those on board, would not feel that any blockade, needed breaking.

If Gaza is going to ever be a land, which can look after itself and it's people, it needs industry, it needs to feel free. Hamas may not be a good force, but they were elected and many Palestinians, see them as the only grouping, who are willing to fight for them. And if the Jews have a right to fight for their existence.....so do the Palestinians. And why should the Palestinians, or any other country or people, accept peace, only on Israel's terms.

So you ignore my links. I can't say that I am not surprised. Just a little saddened.

And you can ignore what is right in front of you. Hamas is not satisfied with any semblance of peace treaty, they want Israel as a nation destroyed. It's in their charter or do you suppose that is propagana too? They have no intention of bowing to any "infidel" authority so there goes the UN theory. What needs to happen is the world needs to stop feeling sorry for the terrorists and start feeling sorry for the many innocents on BOTH sides that suffer. The world needs to open it's eyes and realize that only the people of the Middle East can solve the Middle East's problems. You and I will never agree on principle because you think everything Israel has done to the poor Gazans is wrong. Then go look for the pictures on the web of the civilian targets that were hit with a rocket, look at the faces of terrified children with blood running down their faces like crimson tears. Then tell me you think Israel is wrong for defending itself in the only way left open to it other than completely taking over the strip and moving the Palestinians to their friendly neighbors in Iran.

Or if your stomach can handle it then click the attachments in my next post.

[Long Duck Dong]

[B]

Save me the waffle LDD. I know you have a keen mind and a good spirit.

One question......how long is it, since you were in the forces?

Love and light.

C

I was near 20 when I joined, tho I am no longer on active service, I remain * on call * for emergency military service / home front military defence * until I am 42 ... I turn 40 in september

[DuckiesDarling]

Pictures of what terror does, and why Israel fights. Unless of course you'll claim they are faked or just propoganda.

[DuckiesDarling]

And if that isn't enough one more.......

And for the record those pics are from a story about Hamas declaration to kill Israel's children ANYWHERE. So yeah real nice people you are defending, they make war on the innocent and never attack as a military unit. They want a holy war but they don't want war against grown men and women that can defend themselves, no they want to take out children. Babies in their cribs, preschool children, school age children it doesn't matter to them. They will grow up to be more soldiers for Israel.

Personally, after all the bs in this thread I'm still not agreeing with Pasa that Israel should just wipe the Gazans out. But it needs to end. They need to realize that terrorism does nothing but produce anger when used against one of the most previously terrorized nations. They know Israel has flat out said they will never again be left without the means to defend themselves. And they know Israel is sticking to that promise. Every strike by the Gazans has resulted in swift Israeli response. It's not tit for tat, it's not a polite afternoon's scuffle then off for tea. It's life and death for real people every day. But some people are just too fucking blind to see it.

[Canticle]

I am misunderstanding english ???? read my bloody post, tenni asked where a person said something in a video...... he asked DD about it.... so I posted the link for it

I never mentioned jihad or referred to it and nor did I suggest what the person was refering to or saying......

if you are going to tell me I am wrong on something, please make sure I was actually talking about it in the first place.... ie JIHAD

I know what I posted........I suggest that you read the post...theone with the unwanted links, which I posted to DD. I am suggesting that the word martyr can be interpreted in many ways, as can the word jihad. A jihad is a struggle....and not necessarily a war. You cannot know exactly what the guy in the video meant, by the word martyr. Only he can and he's not sat in the forum or the chat room.

[Canticle]

American Jews for a Just Peace is to Co-Sponsor Jewish Boat to Gaza. [link] (http://www.ajjp.org/jewishboat)

Thank you for those links. they were very interesting .

[Long Duck Dong]

I know what I posted........I suggest that you read the post...theone with the unwanted links, which I posted to DD. I am suggesting that the word martyr can be interpreted in many ways, as can the word jihad. A jihad is a struggle....and not necessarily a war. You cannot know exactly what the guy in the video meant, by the word martyr. Only he can and he's not sat in the forum or the chat room.

I never suggested what he was refering to, I never mentioned anything to do with jihad or martyrs or martyrdom...... I merely showed tenni where it was mentioned in a video

there is a dammed good reason why.... COS i have no bloody idea what he is actually referring to with the usage of the word martyr...... therefore I am not quessing at or assuming what he meant....

I say again..... I never mentioned jihad, and nor do I care about martyrs or martrydom...... so there is no reason for me to read your sites ...

now read back and see that it was DD and tenni that were talking about jihad and martyrs........NOT ME!!!!!!!!

so if you had read as well as you claim, you would have seen that..... clearly you didn't as you are going after the wrong person over something they do not care about......

now I say again, stop telling me or trying to tell me I am wrong or in error over something I clearly am not referring to or discussing....

[Canticle]

And you can ignore what is right in front of you. Hamas is not satisfied with any semblance of peace treaty, they want Israel as a nation destroyed. It's in their charter or do you suppose that is propagana too? They have no intention of bowing to any "infidel" authority so there goes the UN theory. What needs to happen is the world needs to stop feeling sorry for the terrorists and start feeling sorry for the many innocents on BOTH sides that suffer. The world needs to open it's eyes and realize that only the people of the Middle East can solve the Middle East's problems. You and I will never agree on principle because you think everything Israel has done to the poor Gazans is wrong. Then go look for the pictures on the web of the civilian targets that were hit with a rocket, look at the faces of terrified children with blood running down their faces like crimson tears. Then tell me you think Israel is wrong for defending itself in the only way left open to it other than completely taking over the strip and moving the Palestinians to their friendly neighbors in Iran.

Or if your stomach can handle it then click the attachments in my next post.

I guess the children in Gaza have crimson tears also. I'm not afraid to click on your link DD....but you didn't wan't to read anything about the meaning of the word 'jihad.' Hmmmmm......

[DuckiesDarling]

I guess the children in Gaza have crimson tears also. I'm not afraid to click on your link DD....but you didn't wan't to read anything about the meaning of the word 'jihad.' Hmmmmm......

There are dead children on both sides thanks the actions of your lovely Hamas. I guess we should be thankful they haven't yet captured an Israeli child to slice up into steaks and send home.

And I'm well fucking acquainted with Jihad, after all America has had one declared on it since 2001. But then I guess we know nothing, we only look at the entire world instead of sitting somewhere afraid to walk outside our own paths. Tell me Canticle, when's the last time you actually left your house?

[Canticle]

And if that isn't enough one more.......

And for the record those pics are from a story about Hamas declaration to kill Israel's children ANYWHERE. So yeah real nice people you are defending, they make war on the innocent and never attack as a military unit. They want a holy war but they don't want war against grown men and women that can defend themselves, no they want to take out children. Babies in their cribs, preschool children, school age children it doesn't matter to them. They will grow up to be more soldiers for Israel.

Personally, after all the bs in this thread I'm still not agreeing with Pasa that Israel should just wipe the Gazans out. But it needs to end. They need to realize that terrorism does nothing but produce anger when used against one of the most previously terrorized nations. They know Israel has flat out said they will never again be left without the means to defend themselves. And they know Israel is sticking to that promise. Every strike by the Gazans has resulted in swift Israeli response. It's not tit for tat, it's not a polite afternoon's scuffle then off for tea. It's life and death for real people every day. But some people are just too fucking blind to see it.


The pictures you show are terrible....of coiurse they are, but what of the children in Gaza.......are they different? Israeli retalliation, must kill far and injure more. These things are not only happening in the Middle East. Children die in Africa, starving to death. A once very rich country called Zimbabwe, has been brought to it's knees by Robert Mugabe, with daily killings, no free elections and people starving. Does the west take any notice.....NO. No oil to be found in Zimbabwe.

In certain South American countries, the street children are culled. Children die in conflict, wherever it may be. Show some pictures of injured children from Gaza.....Hama recruits of the future.

It's life and death, globally. The state of Israel does a greater claim to that sort of thing, than any other area of conflict.....not in the 21st century.

[DuckiesDarling]

The pictures you show are terrible....of coiurse they are, but what of the children in Gaza.......are they different? Israeli retalliation, must kill far and injure more. These things are not only happening in the Middle East. Children die in Africa, starving to death. A once very rich country called Zimbabwe, has been brought to it's knees by Robert Mugabe, with daily killings, no free elections and people starving. Does the west take any notice.....NO. No oil to be found in Zimbabwe.

In certain South American countries, the street children are culled. Children die in conflict, wherever it may be. Show some pictures of injured children from Gaza.....Hama recruits of the future.

It's life and death, globally. The state of Israel does a greater claim to that sort of thing, than any other area of conflict.....not in the 21st century.

What's happening elsewhere in the world has nothing to do with this thread. Children are dead because of Hamas, children on BOTH sides are dead because of Hamas.

[tenni]

DD
I cans see and agree with some of your points in post of today(damn I forgot the numbers...duh..lol) I have no explanation as to why that Arab man made that statement in English. However, I've already stated that I see that particular video as being a professional propaganda video. I gave several reasons in a previous post as to the factors that make it so.

Where I agree with most sincerely is that Hammas was/is a terrorist group. Fatta was seen as a terrorist group as well. Both have moved from a position of being a terrorist group attacking not just military locations but the civilian population to representing the voice of their people. Whether they both are still participating in terrorist acts, I do not know for sure but suspect that they are.

Are Gazan children injured and killed by the Israel? Yes, they are. How many died when Israel invaded Gaza last year? I don't know but I'm sure many died and bled just as those Israeli children did. Those children in the photos may have just as well been Gazan as Israeli.

Where is the difference? If you have read the sites posted tonight by hardnbubbly you will see reports that the Red Cross states that 14% of Gazan children suffered from stunted growth due to poor nutrition. I doubt very much the Israeli children are suffering from stunted growth due to malnutrion. Israel is failing in providing humananitarian aid to stop this suffering. (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/2010614102758862244.html) Now, those that are closed minded about the source may very well reject it based on that news source. I've found that they do have a slight bias and definitely a different perspective when compared to North American media. I think that is good though. I have found that they are reliable when they report on topics that are not connected to the middle east. It is your choice whether you reject them as presenting a different perspective. I have a tendency to read both liberal and conservative news sources. I don't always agree with the conservative media in my country but I find the perspective interesting and having some validity of perspective. I find the same about Aljazeera. The present a different perspective editorially about the middle east. They present the same incident as far as the details are concerned but often present perspectives not presented in Western media.

Both sides have made serious errors. Do you condemn both sides or are you remaining rigid in blaming only one side?

[Canticle]

There are dead children on both sides thanks the actions of your lovely Hamas. I guess we should be thankful they haven't yet captured an Israeli child to slice up into steaks and send home.

And I'm well fucking acquainted with Jihad, after all America has had one declared on it since 2001. But then I guess we know nothing, we only look at the entire world instead of sitting somewhere afraid to walk outside our own paths. Tell me Canticle, when's the last time you actually left your house?

I leave my house every day and if you want to go discussing terrorism, I lived through the worst of the IRA bomb attacks, on mainland Britain. When bags were searched, when you stood on a station platform, in central London, wondering what was in the bag, a slightly shifty looking person, was carrying.

But I guess that is different....it's not the USA. Well, let me tell you, the USA is not the first country to suffer terrorism. It won't be the last. All terrorism, no matter how few, or how many people get killed, is awful, no matter the race, creed or colour of the people involved. You might want to remember that in Irag, when these huge bombs explode, innocent men, women and children are killed.

Being Jewish, being Muslim, being Christian, or any other religion....it doesn't matter......terrorism is wrong. Israeli, Palestinian Arab, Iraqi, Iranian, British, American, Irish, Spanish, Serb...whatever the race or nationality.......people get killed. One wrong does not make a right. One right does not make a wrong.

I sometimes think that the USA believes that only itself and Israel suffers terrorism.....not so. It is everywhere on the planet.

And you keep going on about bodies being sliced up, to send back to Israel. What the heck is that all about?

[Canticle]

What's happening elsewhere in the world has nothing to do with this thread. Children are dead because of Hamas, children on BOTH sides are dead because of Hamas.

The heck is does. What is happening elswhere in the world is very relevant. There are children dying....dying....and to mention that there are other conflicts is extremely important.

[DuckiesDarling]

The heck is does. What is happening elswhere in the world is very relevant. There are children dying....dying....and to mention that there are other conflicts is extremely important.

It's as relevant as what LDD posted and you asked what it had to do with Israel(post451)... so can't handle being told the same thing.

But I stand by my point, this is about Israel/Gaza not about Africa, or Thailand or Japan or Australia. Children are dying everywhere but you yourself seem determined to only keep this on the subject of Israel and Gaza but you throw other dead kids up in other parts of the world when shown the bodies and faces of kids directly affected by Gazan rocket fire. Can't debate a point so you misdirect, classic.

[DuckiesDarling]

DD
I cans see and agree with some of your points. I have no explanation as to why that Arab man made that statement in English. However, I've already stated that I see that particular video as being a professional propaganda video. I gave several reasons in a previous post as to the factors that make it so.

Where I agree with most sincerely is that Hammas was/is a terrorist group. Fatta was seen as a terrorist group as well. Both have moved from a position of being a terrorist group attacking not just military locations but the civilian population to representing the voice of their people. Whether they both are still participating in terrorist acts, I do not know for sure but suspect that they are.

Are Gazan children injured and killed by the Israel? Yes, they are. How many died when Israel invaded Gaza last year? I don't know but I'm sure many died and bled just as those Israeli children did. Those children in the photos may have just as well been Gazan as Israeli.

Where is the difference? If you have read the sites posted tonight by hardnbubbly you will see reports that the Red Cross states that 14% of Gazan children suffered from stunted growth due to poor nutrition. I doubt very much the Israeli children are suffering from stunted growth due to malnutrion. Israel is failing in providing humananitarian aid to stop this suffering. (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/2010614102758862244.html) Now, those that are closed minded about the source may very well reject it based on that news source. I've found that they do have a slight bias and definitely a different perspective when compared to North American media. I think that is good though. I have found that they are reliable when they report on topics that are not connected to the middle east. It is your choice whether you reject them as presenting a different perspective. I have a tendency to read both liberal and conservative news sources. I don't always agree with the conservative media in my country but I find the perspective interesting and having some validity of perspective.

Both sides have made serious errors. Do you condemn both sides or are you remaining rigid in blaming only one side?

Rigid? No, but I do blame Hamas for most of it and Israel must defend. For the rocket attacks and the stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel, that includes food. So yes I do blame one side, in particular Hamas. They will continue this until there is nothing left on the Gaza Strip because their religion demands that Israel be swept from this planet before Allah will come.

[Long Duck Dong]

DD
I cans see and agree with some of your points. I have no explanation as to why that Arab man made that statement in English. However, I've already stated that I see that particular video as being a professional propaganda video. I gave several reasons in a previous post as to the factors that make it so.

Where I agree with most sincerely is that Hammas was/is a terrorist group. Fatta was seen as a terrorist group as well. Both have moved from a position of being a terrorist group attacking not just military locations but the civilian population to representing the voice of their people. Whether they both are still participating in terrorist acts, I do not know for sure but suspect that they are.

Are Gazan children injured and killed by the Israel? Yes, they are. How many died when Israel invaded Gaza last year? I don't know but I'm sure many died and bled just as those Israeli children did. Those children in the photos may have just as well been Gazan as Israeli.

Where is the difference? If you have read the sites posted tonight by hardnbubbly you will see reports that the Red Cross states that 14% of Gazan children suffered from stunted growth due to poor nutrition. I doubt very much the Israeli children are suffering from stunted growth due to malnutrion. Israel is failing in providing humananitarian aid to stop this suffering. (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/2010614102758862244.html) Now, those that are closed minded about the source may very well reject it based on that news source. I've found that they do have a slight bias and definitely a different perspective when compared to North American media. I think that is good though. I have found that they are reliable when they report on topics that are not connected to the middle east. It is your choice whether you reject them as presenting a different perspective. I have a tendency to read both liberal and conservative news sources. I don't always agree with the conservative media in my country but I find the perspective interesting and having some validity of perspective.

Both sides have made serious errors. Do you condemn both sides or are you remaining rigid in blaming only one side?

I will not argue the figures or the findings.... all I will say, if you can not give more aid than there is to give...... and the logistics of transporting and delivering, are another aspect....

its a bit like other countries, yes, children are starving.... but again, you can not provide more aid then what you have, and getting it to where its needed, is easier to talk about than do..... specially if you are facing hostile resistance and I am not talking about blockades, ....

the issue is how to resolve it.. while being balanced and fair to both sides, and without creating more bloodshed......and without causing issues that result in less aid getting thru

[tenni]

DD
First, Islam does not demand the destruction of Israel. You are misinformed but I wait for a Muslim to correct you with more details. Some radical extremists demand the end of Israel. Some radical Christians demand the death of GLBT people as well but not Christianity itself.

Second, Please expand upon your statement about "stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel"?


Rigid? No, but I do blame Hamas for most of it and Israel must defend. For the rocket attacks and the stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel, that includes food. So yes I do blame one side, in particular Hamas. They will continue this until there is nothing left on the Gaza Strip because their religion demands that Israel be swept from this planet before Allah will come.

[hardnbubbly]

Neither is Israel for that matter. They voted in an extremist government. Why don't we blockade them to convince them to change their mind?


And you can ignore what is right in front of you. Hamas is not satisfied with any semblance of peace treaty, they want Israel as a nation destroyed. It's in their charter or do you suppose that is propagana too? They have no intention of bowing to any "infidel" authority so there goes the UN theory. What needs to happen is the world needs to stop feeling sorry for the terrorists and start feeling sorry for the many innocents on BOTH sides that suffer. The world needs to open it's eyes and realize that only the people of the Middle East can solve the Middle East's problems. You and I will never agree on principle because you think everything Israel has done to the poor Gazans is wrong. Then go look for the pictures on the web of the civilian targets that were hit with a rocket, look at the faces of terrified children with blood running down their faces like crimson tears. Then tell me you think Israel is wrong for defending itself in the only way left open to it other than completely taking over the strip and moving the Palestinians to their friendly neighbors in Iran.

Or if your stomach can handle it then click the attachments in my next post.

[DuckiesDarling]

DD
First, Islam does not demand the destruction of Israel. You are misinformed but I wait for a Muslim to correct you with more details. Some radical extremists demand the end of Israel. Some radical Christians demand the death of GLBT people as well but not Christianity itself.

Second, Please expand upon your statement about "stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel"?

Hamas' own policies state that they believe Allah will not come until the Zionist plague is removed. And as for the policies, it's well known as it's been reported on several sites and mentioned several times in this thread. Hamas has declared it will accept no aid vetted by Israel

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-456346

http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/hamas-refusing-aid-to-gaza

There are a couple, plenty more out there on the web.

[hardnbubbly]

Smuggling necessities through tunnels is aid??????????

Please tell the children with stunted development.. the patients that don't have medicin to be treated... school children that don't have school books.

Just tell me what weapon can you manufacture with chocolate? What weapons you can manufacture with medicin?



yet a more recent law, which I have posted, the international humanitarian aid law, supersedes the 4th geneva convention by stating the definations and guidelines for aid transportation, classification of enemy / netural / aid ships, planes, vehicles etc, the rules of engagement etc etc

aid is known to be getting thru from egypt to gaza thru tunnels, and that is where a lot of the weapons is getting thru to.......

even israel has acknowledged that the tunnels exist and will not move to close them......

the bloackade may be a violation of the 4th geneva convention in the red cross eyes.... but why it is there ??? its there to stop the transportation of weapons and minimise blood shed.....

[tenni]

Thanks DD
re: post 624
This has not been reported in Canada CBC, Globe and Mail nor the National Post (a conservative National newspaper). All are reputable news sources. When I read the first post, I can see that it would probably be rejected as a biased emotional rant rather than accurate news reporting in Canada. Strange that it is under the CNN banner. It is not under a New York Times search nor the BBC webpage search. I notice the reference to Fox news in the second webpage and the use of emotional rather than neutral wording.

[hardnbubbly]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/hamas-flotilla-aid-israel


They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.

Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?

FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.






Hamas' own policies state that they believe Allah will not come until the Zionist plague is removed. And as for the policies, it's well known as it's been reported on several sites and mentioned several times in this thread. Hamas has declared it will accept no aid vetted by Israel

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-456346

http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/hamas-refusing-aid-to-gaza

There are a couple, plenty more out there on the web.

[Long Duck Dong]

Smuggling necessities through tunnels is aid??????????

Please tell the children with stunted development.. the patients that don't have medicin to be treated... school children that don't have school books.

Just tell me what weapon can you manufacture with chocolate? What weapons you can manufacture with medicin?

can you please supply info about what is being smuggled thru the tunnels.....
I am going by reports by egypt and israel...... so there is no breakdown of exactly what is being smuggled thru the tunnels....

what I know, is aid / weapons and commercial goods are been smuggled in.... thru over 300 tunnels..... unfortunately the red cross is not able to provide exact numbers as they are not in control of the tunnels and nor are the aid foundations....

israel is being fired on with chocolate flavoured and chocolate powered missles ???? ok..... are they foil wrapped or just plain chocolate

you really have to ask yourself, where the missiles are getting into the gaza strip, if they are not coming in by plane, ship or border control....and there is tunnels under the ground that israel actively states, are not monitored

now I am realistic... you are not gonna be able to smuggle in 600 ton a day thru tunnels.... and nor am I suggesting that its going on on that scale.....
so aid is a loose term, but a backpack of meds or a field medics pack is actually a lot of meds for basic treatment and first aid ....... and thats just one person.....

you have 7 people, two carrying med packs, 2 carrying rgps and 3 carrying food..... thats a lot of stuff for a militant cell...... ( in english, a unit of about 7-10 people )

tho I really have to ask, the tonnes of aid going into gaza, is it getting to the kids or is it being stockpiled by the *ruling * groups..... as happens in a lot of aid distribution areas in other countries

[DuckiesDarling]

Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

[hardnbubbly]

It is not on the CNN.. It is a user posted item. It says not vetted by CNN


Thanks DD
re: post 624
This has not been reported in Canada CBC, Globe and Mail nor the National Post (a conservative National newspaper). All are reputable news sources. When I read the first post, I can see that it would probably be rejected as a biased emotional rant rather than accurate news reporting in Canada. Strange that it is under the CNN banner. It is not under a New York Times search nor the BBC webpage search. I notice the reference to Fox news in the second webpage and the use of emotional rather than neutral wording.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/hamas-flotilla-aid-israel


They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.

Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?

FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.

I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

[hardnbubbly]

Here is the latest on the aid getting in:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..


Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas charter.

[DuckiesDarling]

Here is the latest:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

As politely as I can say it, BULLSHIT. The protesters were processed and on their way to being released within 17 hours, the aid sat for a week. Pick another party line.

[tenni]

Thanks hardnbubbly
I notice that the Guardian reports that this was last week and it points out that Israel should deliver the cement that was brought. By refusing to permit cement into Gaza, Israel is defying the UN definition of what is humanitarian aid. A tough position for Hammas to take. I believe that the activists have all been released now? I wonder if Hammas is still refusing the aid. I would blame them for not accepting the medicine etc. just because Israel is holding back the cement. Hammas is right that it should be delivered but this is an example of plain stubborn bull headedness on both sides. Logic is out the window and a nasty pissing contest is going on over there.

[tenni]

Thanks for the recent info DD

However, do you not see the pissing contest coming from Israel?
""Israel has no communication with Hamas, we speak to Fatah officials at the borders," said the Israeli security official."

wtf????

Hammas is the government of Gaza and Fatah and Hammas are kinda enemies too? Silly Israel...just plain fuck'n dumb of them.

[DuckiesDarling]

Not sure if it's dumb or if they are chosen to report to Hamas. I was a bit stumped as well since Hamas killed off Fatah members during it's election victory.

[hardnbubbly]

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.


I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

[Long Duck Dong]

Here is the latest:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

[hardnbubbly]

And Israel is promising what exactly? A bouquet of roses?

The IRA changed their stance eventually, but someone had to be willing to have them at the negotiation table. Likewise for Hamas. They are no more ideological than say the Israeli foreign minister.


I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

[DuckiesDarling]

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".

[hardnbubbly]

DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.




Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".

[hardnbubbly]

Lol... you completely misunderstood what I was saying..

I generally disagree with Hamas and their policies. And if you read my previous post, I did say that I think they should have let it in.

But again, I guess their manouver worked. Some hospitals and schools will get rebuilt.

As for they UN, Israel also decides what they can bring into Gaza and what they cannot. The blockade encompasses them as well. And yes, chocolate is one of the banned items. So are a lot of medicins, school supplies and so on.



from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

[DuckiesDarling]

DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.

And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.

[hardnbubbly]

Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).

This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?


And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.

[Long Duck Dong]

Lol... you completely misunderstood what I was saying..

I generally disagree with Hamas and their policies. And if you read my previous post, I did say that I think they should have let it in.

But again, I guess their manouver worked. Some hospitals and schools will get rebuilt.

As for they UN, Israel also decides what they can bring into Gaza and what they cannot. The blockade encompasses them as well. And yes, chocolate is one of the banned items. So are a lot of medicins, school supplies and so on.

I did not misunderstand at all ( the way I write, is what confuses the hell out of people but its done for a reason )......

I read your link...... as for why israel has banned a lot of items, I can only guess at...... however some items I understand why... cement being one.....
plastercrete is a superior item to cement for a number of reasond....

I have the stance that I hate politics.... but I am acutely aware, that you have 3 levels of people in any society

the people, the civilians, the * innocents * the armed forces etc

the politicians with all their posing and posturing and strutting.....

then you have the militant extremists.... they are the issue with the attacks, rockets, the killings, the ones that believe that their opinion and stance is the law, the religion, the rights.... regardless of what their own government may say......
they are the people that is the problem.... you could gain peace in gaza, and they will not stop fighting, they will even turn on their own kind if need be.....


I hate bureaucratic bs, such as the aid supplies and shipments and who can do what.... and as your link showed, its coming from a government level..... but its not the government that is doing the rocket attacks on the convoys... its the militants, they are the ones with the training with the armaments.....
I am the type of person that believes that aid and aid only shipments should be allowed freedom of movement within reason, but yes, I allow for ships to be sent to a designated port for inspection ( ashdod port ).... but I say that from the point of view that its not just the aid that can be the issue.....
as I have said earlier in the thread.... 700 people on one boat..... how many would have left the gaza strip after the unloading. 600?? 500??

with each death in the gaza strip, hamas and the other groups lose more fighters.... and well, aid is not the only thing that becomes urgently needed.....

it falls back again, on my knowledge of military and combat training..... something that civilians may not have...... you can not keep fighting a war, if you have nobody left to fight on your side.... and as I said in another post.... I am not fully convinced that israel boarded the ships just cos they never stopped... I have the strangest feeling, they boarded the ships cos the ships were carrying people seeking to ally with the fighters in gaza ....

I am willing to wager a $10,000 bet, that israel will never fall, regardless of who goes against them...... we will see peace first..... but it will not come at the hands of the UN ..... it will come from the middle east

[Canticle]

It's as relevant as what LDD posted and you asked what it had to do with Israel(post451)... so can't handle being told the same thing.

But I stand by my point, this is about Israel/Gaza not about Africa, or Thailand or Japan or Australia. Children are dying everywhere but you yourself seem determined to only keep this on the subject of Israel and Gaza but you throw other dead kids up in other parts of the world when shown the bodies and faces of kids directly affected by Gazan rocket fire. Can't debate a point so you misdirect, classic.

I won't swear. I shall not lower myself to that level......but don't tell me what I can and cannot handle being told me. You have no idea what I can and cannot handle.

I can see that you will never be swayed, from the position you have taken. I'll say again....children are dying in conflicts, in much the same manner and worse, all over the world. You seem to think that only Jews are suffering. Do you speak out as strongly against other wrongs in the world, which are killing children, as well as adults.

It's impossible to debate with people. who are so definite in their devotion to one side in such a conflict as is happening in the Middle East. You will not be moved to take a step outside, what you are so adamant about, and consider that Israel may be in the wrong. Do you think that Israel can do any wrong???

Not mis-direction.......just letting you know that Israel is not the only place in the world, to have children suffering. The suffering of those in Gaza, I have no doubt, is much worse, than the children of Israel. You are the one showing a closed mind......not me.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It's impossible to debate with people. who are so definite in their devotion to one side in such a conflict as is happening in the Middle East. You will not be moved to take a step outside, what you are so adamant about

I completely agree. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

ROFLMAO Pasa very nice and so true.

Canticle you are so anti Israel I am surprised Hamas hasn't offered you a membership.

I know all about the suffering in this world and I can guarantee you every second of every day there is someone having a much worse day than anything you or I can imagine. So you lay off me about Israel and I'll lay off you about antiIsrael.

Til then, bring it on.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

Good question. Good question indeed. We could ask the British the same question. They did the EXACT same thing.


This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Those borders were lost as a result of a war Israel didn't start. They have no right to demand a return to those borders.

But, this is not a struggle for human rights. This is a struggle of one nation who has a 'government' opposing it that has, AS IT'S STATED PURPOSE FOR BEING the eradication and elimination of the Jews. This is Israel fighting for its very survival.

IF, and I mean this, IF Palestine were to reject the idea that Israel should be destroyed, then I would agree with you 100%. That's a huge IF.


Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

As long as Palestine has, as it's stated purpose for existing, the eradication of Israel from existing, then yes, it's valid. How could it not be? That doesn't make palestinians less than human. It makes them extremely human. When humans make choices, they suffer consequences for those choices.

Now, there is the REALLY important point: Israel rejects this idea. Israel could rid itself of it's problems easily. It would take less than a week. And yet, rather than rid itself of it's enemy, they have suffered decades of missile attacks. THAT is the difference between Israel and Gaza. Israel actually could do the Palestinians what Hamas has vowed to do to Israel. And yet, it chooses not to.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I completely agree. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

Pasa

Decidely amateurish and been done to death. You just want everyone to agree with you and your country's foreign policy. I don't care who agrees or disagrees with me. It just saddens me, to see people, posting with such loathing in their hearts for certain things. I am neither pro or anti Israeli...or pro or anti Palestinian. I detest terror tactics, whereever they come from, the rebel...aka the terrorist...or the state. The USA may be a big super power....but is doesn't make their support of Israel right. And you don't have to go along with your governments foreign policy, just because you're a citizen............or would that make you anti American.

[Canticle]

ROFLMAO Pasa very nice and so true.

Canticle you are so anti Israel I am surprised Hamas hasn't offered you a membership.

I know all about the suffering in this world and I can guarantee you every second of every day there is someone having a much worse day than anything you or I can imagine. So you lay off me about Israel and I'll lay off you about antiIsrael.

Til then, bring it on.

Well, DD, you have gone down in my estimations. Not that this will bother you.

Not so clever of Pasa and not at all true.......but you have got to agree, haven't you.

Very immature...laughing like that...and the insults fly...once again.

I'm not anti Israel...I'm not pro Hamas. So get that right.

I will continue to bring up the suffering of others, as it is important that this should be realised. It would be very difficult not to get on your case about Israel, even though I'm not, because the subject is about Israel and Gaza and the aid ship and your obvious anger, and seemingly unwillingness to even have any criticism of Israel, is very disturbing.

[Canticle]

Rigid? No, but I do blame Hamas for most of it and Israel must defend. For the rocket attacks and the stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel, that includes food. So yes I do blame one side, in particular Hamas. They will continue this until there is nothing left on the Gaza Strip because their religion demands that Israel be swept from this planet before Allah will come.

Yes, true...you appear unwilling to see things in another light.

A question........if you blame Hamas for 'most,' of the conflict, then you must obviously blame israel, for a certain percentage of the troubles out there. Tell us what you think Israel may be guilty of and what she, as a nation, can do, to change things, so that the sate of Israel comes out white in the wash.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, DD, you have gone down in my estimations. Not that this will bother you.

Not so clever of Pasa and not at all true.......but you have got to agree, haven't you.

Very immature...laughing like that...and the insults fly...once again.

I'm not anti Israel...I'm not pro Hamas. So get that right.

I will continue to bring up the suffering of others, as it is important that this should be realised. It would be very difficult not to get on your case about Israel, even though I'm not, because the subject is about Israel and Gaza and the aid ship and your obvious anger, and seemingly unwillingness to even have any criticism of Israel, is very disturbing.

out of curiosity, why is the double standards allowed by you but not others.... you questioned me about things I posted that were not to do with the thread subject matter, while you now do the same.....

and in regards to your remarks to pasa about the anti american stance....

anybody that knows anything, will know and understand that american has a strategic military interest in the middle east, the last thing they want to do, is piss off the middle east and lose that strategical advantage.....

that doesn't make any body, with a opinion that can appear to support their country, supporting their countries stance...... there is a wide divide between a matching stance and support of your countries stance.....

I myself, as a ex military person, support the nz troops in arghanistan, from the point of view that they are over there trying to get the troops home alive, from all countries.... yet, I am anti my countries stance of send troops to fight americans wars.... as the cost to nz is something that the taz payer has to shoulder.... and its the nz population that have to bury the dead from a conflict that we never started......

at the end of the day, canticle, you are sinking faster and faster into a quadmire of your own making... you are out of your depth on a number of issues..... but you are insisting on telling people with actual knowledge and experience in a number of areas, that they are uninformed, yet, you lack understanding of the areas that they address.....

there is no news paper, website, tv program that will teach you what the trained military professionals know and understand about the boarding of the ship..... and while you can cry propaganda at every video that shows something that can contradict your stance on things..... it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the videos are disproving what the protestors are saying and supporting what israel is saying.....

there are even independant sources such as aid groups that have shared info that prove that israel is telling the truth in a number of areas.....

but as many of us have noticed, you cry propaganda at anything you can not decry, you avoid many questions, you are very quick to puff out your chest about your own intelligence but you fail to understand that there are those of us that are not pro / anti hamas or pro / anti israel...... we are merely reviewing the facts and findings using our knowledge and skills and understanding that is far superior to yours....... and posting our findings..... and watching you try and decry what we say......and get it wrong a lot

one example of that, is you trying to drive me into the jihad / martyr debate, that was between tenni and DD... yet, when I posted that I was not involved, you posted again and told me that I did not understand the meanings of the words...

so canticle ......you have stated that you will leave the thread ( a number of pages ago ) and yet you still are in the thread...... you have hardly provided any proof to back up your arguments, yet decried others providing links to sites and videos......

now I ask of you again, since we are all uninformed fools..... where is your proof we are all wrong..... where is your links to non propaganda videos and news sites.... where is your break down of events, backed up by field knowledge and understanding......

I wait as I have done so for many pages..... for you to rebut this post, without a wall of text, and actual links to non propaganda videos and websites...... unless... you do not have anything to link to...

[Hephaestion]

Recent Newsbroadcasts tell of 'extreme orthodox Jews' wanting to set up their own environment within Israel. The latest aspect is separate schools for their children.

Wars tend to bind a nation together initially. Is this the same element in the Israeli nation that has been causing trouble by aggressive land grabbing and settlement expansion?

Is Israel begining to break up under the strain?

.

[DuckiesDarling]

RE 652



What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?

[DuckiesDarling]

Recent Newsbroadcasts tell of 'extreme orthodox Jews' wanting to set up their own environment within Israel. The latest aspect is separate schools for their children.

Wars tend to bind a nation together initially. Is this the same element in the Israeli nation that has been causing trouble by aggressive land grabbing and settlement expansion?

Is Israel begining to break up under the strain?

.

Got a link, Heph?

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=DuckiesDarling;172657]Got a link, Heph?[QUOTE]

I assume this is what Heph is referring to Darling, darling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10338900.stm

[DuckiesDarling]

Thanks, Fran and interesting post. Yet it only confirms Israel is like every other country in the world when it comes to religion in schools. We have areas like that here in the US yet they conform to the standards set for home teaching and pass every certification test given so it's allowed as long as the children aren't being abused. We have the Amish community here and they do not use modern techonology and they do home school their children. I can see their point but I can also see the Israeli government's point, if they can't get their children to accept others what hope is there for the Middle East at all?

[tenni]

I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.

Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.

[Long Duck Dong]

go start a thread about it then tenni..... we would not want to upset canticle by going off topic...... and not talking about the flotilla....

btw, who are the pro israel people....

fran is quiet, hep is neutral like me, and pasa I think is pro israel in the flotilla issue, not sure about other parts.... DD is pro israel on a few things....and canticle.... well.... god knows... I am not sure she knows herself.....

[DuckiesDarling]

I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.

Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.

At the risk of going off topic I'll just state that Israeli Arabs retain voting rights. Since the Gaza strip so adamantly maintains it is not a part of Israel why would they have the right to vote in the Israeli elections. Then we have the Knesset. There are many examples on the web of either pro or con Israel heading to an apartheid state. However, I saw an interesting documentary on South Africa the other day. And a grieving grandfather was recalling the murder of his grand-daughter as she was strapped to his daughter's back. She was shot in the head. He stated it wouldn't have happened under apartheid. That back then the police were strong and enforced the rules, he believes they should shoot to kill criminals. Not arrest them and let them right back out to do it again. This was on Current Tv and I believe it was a Vanguard production, they are a cutting edge journalism team.

[tenni]

Sorry DD but I was reading a web page that simply reported on Arabs living within Israel having voting rights for municipal elections but even though they were born and lived in undisputed Israeli territory they were not permitted to vote for a member of the Knesset. Both Israel and your post seem to go back and forth whether Gaza is in Israel or not. It is a bit confusing but how can Israel claim the right to blockade Gaza because it is within their country on one hand and deny voting rights to the Gazans? If the Gazans refuse to exercise those rights as a protest that is their right as in every democratic society. In Canada we have a fairly large political party in our Parliament whose founding purpose is to leave Canada. All of its members are from the one territory of Quebec. They claim it as a nation rather than a province. I'm willing to bet that is still written in their policy but they have modified their policy and actions. The Bloc Quebecois votes in Parliament. it brings the special interests of Quebecers up in the national Parlaiment. It behave civily (now). Sometimes its leader makes more sense than the pro one Canada parties on some issues!!!! It has toned down its separatist rhetoric and is working within the democratic process to get as many 'rights" for Quebecers as it can. Hamas and Fatah if Arabs had voting rights might one day act in a similar manner regardless of what is in their present and "former" terrorist policy manifestos.

Whatever you saw about South Africa today and the violence really is a red herring with regards to Israel's Apartheid issues in Gaza, Palestine and Israel proper. There is always someone stating that X would not happen in the old days even if the old days had Apartheid etc.


At the risk of going off topic I'll just state that Israeli Arabs retain voting rights. Since the Gaza strip so adamantly maintains it is not a part of Israel why would they have the right to vote in the Israeli elections. Then we have the Knesset. There are many examples on the web of either pro or con Israel heading to an apartheid state. However, I saw an interesting documentary on South Africa the other day. And a grieving grandfather was recalling the murder of his grand-daughter as she was strapped to his daughter's back. She was shot in the head. He stated it wouldn't have happened under apartheid. That back then the police were strong and enforced the rules, he believes they should shoot to kill criminals. Not arrest them and let them right back out to do it again. This was on Current Tv and I believe it was a Vanguard production, they are a cutting edge journalism team.

[DuckiesDarling]

Sorry DD but I was reading a web page that simply reported on Arabs living within Israel having voting rights for municipal elections but even though they were born and lived in undisputed Israeli territory they were not permitted to vote for a member of the Knesset. Both Israel and your post seem to go back and forth whether Gaza is in Israel or not. It is a bit confusing but how can Israel claim the right to blockade Gaza because it is within their country on one hand and deny voting rights to the Gazans?

Whatever you saw about South Africa today and the violence really is a red herring with regards to Israel's Apartheid issues in Gaza, Palestine and Israel proper. There is always someone stating that X would not happen in the old days even if the old days had Apartheid etc.

First Gaza is not Israeli territory, it is disputed lands that Israel has not claimed, Gazans are not citizens of Israel why would they have the right to vote? Gazans don't want to be citizens of Israel, they want to be citizens of Palestine. Can't have it both ways, are they Israelis or aren't they? If so why are they firing rockets on their own countrymen?

[tenni]

DD
In some respects we agree about the greyness of Gaza and Palestine. Note, that I kept editing from what you read ....gotta give me five or ten minutes ...lol

If it is disputed territory and Israel does not recognize it as its territory for voting then we are dealing with Apartheid. Israel has segregated the Gazans and Palestinian for far too many years without accepting Gaza and Palestine as a sovereign country (ies?) that it has disputes with over borders etc. It has no right to blockade the sovereign waters of Gaza then let alone the international waters near Gaza? Israel is behaving inappropriately and a bully with your country's military and financial support.



First Gaza is not Israeli territory, it is disputed lands that Israel has not claimed, Gazans are not citizens of Israel why would they have the right to vote? Gazans don't want to be citizens of Israel, they want to be citizens of Palestine. Can't have it both ways, are they Israelis or aren't they? If so why are they firing rockets on their own countrymen?

[DuckiesDarling]

DD
In some respects we agree about the greyness of Gaza and Palestine. Note, that I kept editing from what you read ....gotta give me five or ten minutes ...lol

If it is disputed territory and Israel does not recognize it as its territory for voting then we are dealing with Apartheid. Israel has segregated the Gazans and Palestinian for far too many years without accepting Gaza and Palestine as a sovereign country that it has disputes with over borders etc. It has no right to blockade the sovereign waters of Gaza then? Israel is behaving in appropriately and a bully with your country's military and financial support.

Gaza is blockaded to slow the flow of rockets into that territory that are used against Israel. Gaza is blockaded to facilitate the release of Galid Shalit. Gaza is blockaded because it's that or total war. Which would you prefer?

[Pasadenacpl2]

I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.

Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.

It's quite simple.

As soon as the Palestinians renounce terror and lay down their rockets, they will get their freedoms back. As long as Israel has to suffer attacks, it won't happen. Palestine is in charge of it's own destiny.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Recent Newsbroadcasts tell of 'extreme orthodox Jews' wanting to set up their own environment within Israel. The latest aspect is separate schools for their children.

Wars tend to bind a nation together initially. Is this the same element in the Israeli nation that has been causing trouble by aggressive land grabbing and settlement expansion?

Is Israel begining to break up under the strain?

.

I don't think so. I think it's the same as any fundamentalist group. The US has plenty of them. They want to be able to be exclusive and often set up their own little communities. They don't reflect on the state of things within the nation or within the broader scope of the main religion they supposedly are a part of.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

It's quite simple.

As soon as the Palestinians renounce terror and lay down their rockets, they will get their freedoms back. As long as Israel has to suffer attacks, it won't happen. Palestine is in charge of it's own destiny.

Pasa

That goes both ways.. because there will never be any peace as long as Israel terrorises with tanks bombs missiles and phosphorus shells.. its a 2 way street peace making... Palestine is no more in charge of its destiny than we are of living forever...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Three different investigations have been conducted by the IAEA to see if Israel has used phosphorous. In all three cases they have said no. This is a myth that is often used by the anti-Israeli set to convince others of Israel's 'evil.' Just to correct one tiny point in your post.

And, Fran, of the two sides, only one has the destruction of the other as it's stated goal. You keep ignoring that. THAT is what will keep this conflict going. Hamas (and Fata before it) has, IN ITS CHARTER the destruction of Israel. No peace can be had as long as Israel exists.

No...Palestine is in charge of this. They can change their goal, and accept a two state solution. Or they can continue as is. Israel does not cause Palestine to have AS ITS STATED, WRITTEN GOAL, the destruction of Palestine.

That difference is all the difference in the world.

Pasa

[tenni]

I may be wrong but I do believe that I have seen reports that state that the more Orthodox Jews are the ones who are rather militant about building new settlements in the disputed territory. They may very well be the ones wanting more Orthodox schools as well. It makes sense to me Heph.

As far as Israel blockading to prevent rockets from being brought in and shoot towards Israel, that also make sense. However, is it just? I'm not so convinced when it causes such hardships for Gazans. I'm not convinced that Israel has the right to determine what goods enter Gaza without UN sanctions. In that area they are guilty. Now, for some reason, many US citizens reject the UN as a valid form of world decisions. It is true that it is mired and flawed but it still exists for such things. Unless you accept that, then who gets to decide? The bullies of the world? Those who have the biggest guns? No, that is global anarchy and not the direction of the world should move if we are just creatures.



Gaza is blockaded to slow the flow of rockets into that territory that are used against Israel. Gaza is blockaded to facilitate the release of Galid Shalit. Gaza is blockaded because it's that or total war. Which would you prefer?

[darkeyes]

Three different investigations have been conducted by the IAEA to see if Israel has used phosphorous. In all three cases they have said no. This is a myth that is often used by the anti-Israeli set to convince others of Israel's 'evil.' Just to correct one tiny point in your post.

And, Fran, of the two sides, only one has the destruction of the other as it's stated goal. You keep ignoring that. THAT is what will keep this conflict going. Hamas (and Fata before it) has, IN ITS CHARTER the destruction of Israel. No peace can be had as long as Israel exists.

No...Palestine is in charge of this. They can change their goal, and accept a two state solution. Or they can continue as is. Israel does not cause Palestine to have AS ITS STATED, WRITTEN GOAL, the destruction of Palestine.


Pasa

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jan/21/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-israel

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_military_confirms_the_use_of_white_phospho rus_bombs_in_the_Gaza_Strip

[darkeyes]

I have replied to the allegation that Hamas wants the detruction of Israel if you care to look back Pasa.. I have never ignored it.. I have on more than one occasion said that Israel exists and has the right to exist.. and when peace comes in the middle east it will exist.. Irsael has made it clear however that it wants nothing less than the absolute destruction of Hamas.. Hamas does not wish the destruction of Irsael but its conversion to a Muslim state.. something I would no more wish to see than do you.. but for very different reasons I think.. I no more wish to see an Islamic state than I am happy with the Zionist one which exists now.. nor do I wish for a Palestinian state to be an Islamic state.. yet in both cases that is surely for their citizens to decide.. not we from outside..

Historically nations have been destroyed.. sometimes justifiably.. Nazi germany was destroyed but ultimately a new Germany arose from its ashes.. my hope and wish is that Israel, and the various middle eastern countries can avoid the fate of Germany and the appalling destruction of Europe by changing and trying to get some understanding.. whichever side we are on.. there can be no peace unless all sides sit round a table and discuss their differences and settle them.. if they fail to do so, the prospects for the region and just about everyone else on this planet are bleak.. we can and we have harped back to the historical reasons for this conflict..and they are important.. but what is most importanbt is allowing Palestinians to build their state and get on with making that state a success.. Israel is a state now.. and if it wished it could do so much to pave the way to allow Paestinians to create their state.. free of Hamas and their like.. but its hatred of Hamas is no better than that of Hamas toward it..Israel will not rest until it destroys Hamas completely.. and I ask you this... how easy it ito destroy completely a terrorist or freedom movement call it what u will? Eight years on and the most powerful nations on earth are still struggling with it in Afghanistan. And in between are blasted Palestinian and Israeli alike.. mostly the former by a long way.. because Israel has the muscle which Hamas and its cronies lack.. and because the world does not care enough..

[Canticle]

''I will not argue the figures or the findings.... all I will say, if you can not give more aid than there is to give...... and the logistics of transporting and delivering, are another aspect....''

You can't really argue with something if it is placed right in front of you and spectacles are not required to see the detail.

''its a bit like other countries, yes, children are starving.... but again, you can not provide more aid then what you have, and getting it to where its needed, is easier to talk about than do..... specially if you are facing hostile resistance and I am not talking about blockades, ....''

If the super powers of the world have enough money to go to war, then they have enough money, to give humanitarian aid to people, over and over again.

''the issue is how to resolve it.. while being balanced and fair to both sides, and without creating more bloodshed......and without causing issues that result in less aid getting thru''

Well, it won't be by the arrogance of some nations, thinking that they are always in the right and by super powers, going to war, but really, not for the freedom of others in the world, just those in their own back yard.

[Canticle]

Neither is Israel for that matter. They voted in an extremist government. Why don't we blockade them to convince them to change their mind?


You make a good point, there, hardnbubbly, but I don't think that this would be productive, nor do I believe that many of us, citizens, or those elected to represent us, would agree with such a thing. I know I wouldn't.

[Canticle]

Hamas' own policies state that they believe Allah will not come until the Zionist plague is removed. And as for the policies, it's well known as it's been reported on several sites and mentioned several times in this thread. Hamas has declared it will accept no aid vetted by Israel

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-456346

http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/blogs/hamas-refusing-aid-to-gaza

There are a couple, plenty more out there on the web.

Interesting that you should answer tenni's post 622 with links to...

A CNN page and an image and opinion.....not necessarily sanctioned by CNN....of lots of cargo...of whatever kind....piled up. how can you know that this was humantarian aid, or bound for Gaza?

The second link appears to be from what looks like an ultra-conservative American site. That is bound to be unbiased.....it really is.

[Canticle]

Thanks DD
re: post 624
This has not been reported in Canada CBC, Globe and Mail nor the National Post (a conservative National newspaper). All are reputable news sources. When I read the first post, I can see that it would probably be rejected as a biased emotional rant rather than accurate news reporting in Canada. Strange that it is under the CNN banner. It is not under a New York Times search nor the BBC webpage search. I notice the reference to Fox news in the second webpage and the use of emotional rather than neutral wording.

Quite!!

[Canticle]

[QUOTE=hardnbubbly;172601]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/hamas-flotilla-aid-israel


''They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.''

Thank you for that link hardnbubbly. How can Hamas be blamed, for refusing the aid from the flotilla. It has been tainted by what happened in international waters. It would be like accepting money, taken from the pockets of the dead.

Also, why should Hamas trust any deliveries, of aid, from Israel. How do they know that those supply trucks are not some kind of Trojan Horse. The Israeli's are very good at kidnapping people and carting them off to Israel (as they did with Mordechai Vanunu, when he was taken, in Italy), so a truck could easily be loaded with commandos, hiding behind the aid. Such things happen in times of conflict. The Greeks were not the first to think of things like that. Even if that is a myth....it is symbolic, of what can happen.

''Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?''

Yes, I'd noticed that, too.

''FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.''

Yep, I remember that........but you do realise.....don't you....that none of this will be relavent! :rolleyes:

[Canticle]

Here is the latest on the aid getting in:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..


If the UN along with other aid agencies and the Red Cross and Red Crescent, are also invilved, that is how things should be done.

What we need is the UN Security Council, deciding that ships flying the UN flag will break the blockade, but, of course, we all know that the USA would use it's veto and not allow that.

[Canticle]

can you please supply info about what is being smuggled thru the tunnels.....
I am going by reports by egypt and israel...... so there is no breakdown of exactly what is being smuggled thru the tunnels....

what I know, is aid / weapons and commercial goods are been smuggled in.... thru over 300 tunnels..... unfortunately the red cross is not able to provide exact numbers as they are not in control of the tunnels and nor are the aid foundations....

israel is being fired on with chocolate flavoured and chocolate powered missles ???? ok..... are they foil wrapped or just plain chocolate

you really have to ask yourself, where the missiles are getting into the gaza strip, if they are not coming in by plane, ship or border control....and there is tunnels under the ground that israel actively states, are not monitored

now I am realistic... you are not gonna be able to smuggle in 600 ton a day thru tunnels.... and nor am I suggesting that its going on on that scale.....
so aid is a loose term, but a backpack of meds or a field medics pack is actually a lot of meds for basic treatment and first aid ....... and thats just one person.....

you have 7 people, two carrying med packs, 2 carrying rgps and 3 carrying food..... thats a lot of stuff for a militant cell...... ( in english, a unit of about 7-10 people )

tho I really have to ask, the tonnes of aid going into gaza, is it getting to the kids or is it being stockpiled by the *ruling * groups..... as happens in a lot of aid distribution areas in other countries

I do hope that these tunnels have been getting as much humanitarian aid through to the people of Gaza, as they possibly can. Note...I said humanitarian......not weapons, or weapon making equipment.

[Canticle]

Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

Oh, biased they most certainly be! How do you know that these reports are real and not just more Israeli propaganda?

How do you, personally decide, what is real, what is truth, what is biased, what is unbiased??????

And why should Hamas and the people of Gaza trust the Israelis to deliver safe, untainted aid to them. Why should they not be wary of the hand that feeds and then bombs the hell out of them??????

You'll come back with ''if Hamas didn't do this and accepted peace and didn't attack Israel ,'' etc. It goes round and around in circles. two semitic peoples (one far more semitic than the other), fighting a battle of words, religion, long held mistrust and ongoing conflicts.

Why should the Palestinians cow tow to the Israelis???? Why should Israel expect everyone else to have peace on Israel's terms......or nothing at all??????

[Canticle]

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas charter.

I would agree that what was there to be read, was not acceptable, but it could hardly be called the Hamas charter, as it appeared to be snippets of whatever that charter is, in it's entirety and also quotes from speeches made by what could be called ''fundamentalists,'' or ''extremists.''

Interesting to see that MidEastWeb is a grouping of people from what would appear to be the three monotheistic religions, of the area. And it appears to be a non profit organisation, registered in Israel.

Interesting and informative, nevertheless.

[Canticle]

As politely as I can say it, BULLSHIT. The protesters were processed and on their way to being released within 17 hours, the aid sat for a week. Pick another party line.

Wow DD, this comes over a little like.....''believe the news I read.....because anything else cannot be the truth''

You may be right....totally right......but you have got some of us thinking that you only believe pro Israeli news sources.

[Canticle]

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

I totally agree hardnbubbly. The whole situation has become a disaster for all involved.....iimmigrant Jews and the indigenous Palestinian population, of Christian and Muslim people. No one wants to seem to acknowledge that there are Christian Arabs, as well as Muslim. They are found in Egypt, Syria (a mixture of semitic and non-semitic people), Iraq. Religion has become politics....in much the same way as it did in Northern Ireland.....only it has had much longer to become a festering wound.

People who have lived, for generations in a homeland, should come first. if Israel had not had mass immigration of Jews from across the world, it would not have survived as a state, with only a few thousand people inhabiting it.

There are ultra orthodox Jews, who think that Palestinians and other Arabs and also Christians, are beneath them. I have watched such people make these remarks. I once entered a chat room, upon another site, thinking that it would be interesting. I got booted, for being a Christian whore.

The room was run by an ultra orthodox Jew.....who was as fundamentalist as any Islamic or Christian fundamentalist. His view was that Muslims and Christians should be got rid of....for we were evil. So those people do exist....but hopefully, they are in a minority.

[Canticle]

from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

The UN should have been more involved from the beginning. That is obvious.

[Canticle]

641

‘’Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".’’

Round and around. You won’t call them less than human and neither would I, but will you, in your own words, condemn the thoughts, words and actions of fundamentalist Jews, who, though they are probably a minority, are no less dangerous and offensive as Islamic or Christian fundamentalists.

The many Jews who emigrated to Israel, were not all escaping from oppressive regimes. Those from the Americas and Western Europe already had nationhood and a country to call their own. Those people, who are possibly in the majority, went to Israel, for idealistic reasons.

642
‘’DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.’’

The situation truly does, get worse and worse.

644
‘’And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.’’

It strikes me, that you didn’t really have an answer for hardnbubbly.


645
‘’Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).

This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?’’

Hardnbubbly.....like a liar twists anothers words, to make themself the victim, so will a powerful state, whether it be big or small.

656
‘’RE 652



What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?’’

I can assure you, that if you stooped to my level, you would need to climb a ladder, but once at the top of the ladder and upon a level surface, you would find yourself in the company of an intelligent, caring, cultured and honest person, who has deeply held beliefs and moral convictions. I also respect the views of others, even if I don’t agree with them and I don’t go in for abbreviations....not all that often.....so I am not into cyber-speak. Nor will I use foul language, when foul language is not required. Sorry, but not sorry to say, DD....that with this post.....you truly let yourself down. I am saddened and sorrowful.....but that’s life.

Love and light.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Well said.

People seem to like to conveniently forget that Palestinians are seen as subhuman by Israelis based on the 3rd option you wrote about, and that Israel would love to get rid of all of the Palestinians like the Nazis tried to do to the Jews during WW II. Hypocrites. :rolleyes: Israel is not for peace nor are they innocent like some people would love to believe.

The fact that Palestine still exists is proof that you are wrong.

Israel could wipe them off the planet if it chose. And it would take less than a week.

Pasa

[Canticle]

655
Very interesting Hephand Yes, a link, if you have one, would be most helpful.

658
Thank you for that Fran. It just shows that the different Jewish factions will argue (and probably fight one another, if it came to it....not necessarily over a subject like this), with one another, as will Muslims and Christians. If we can’t live peacefully within our own communities, how can we ever hope to co-exist happily, with others. Sighs.

659
Without acceptance, from all sides, there can never be peace or freedom

660
‘’I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.

Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.’’

Because some people will not be swayed from what they believe, or from what they have been taught, or from what they have decide, for themselves, is right or wrong.

661
‘’go start a thread about it then tenni..... we would not want to upset canticle by going off topic...... and not talking about the flotilla....’’
Why would going off topic upset me LDD??? I have been admonished, on many a thread, for going off topic, when going off topic, but in the same general area of conversation, is sometimes necessary. The discussion, ultimately, returns to the main subject.
So tell me where I have said anything about going off topic and only sticking to OP’s starter??????

‘’btw, who are the pro israel people....’’

You have to be joking!

‘’fran is quiet, hep is neutral like me, and pasa I think is pro israel in the flotilla issue, not sure about other parts.... DD is pro israel on a few things....and canticle.... well.... god knows... I am not sure she knows herself.....’’

Fran is a full time teacher and a mother. She may have other things that are keeping her busy?????

If Heph is neutral, then he being so, in a manner which does him credit. He is able to criticise the Israelis, without being against them as a state, or a people and without showing that he either does, or does not support the Palestinians and Hamas. He is to be congratulated for that.

LDD, you may think that you are neutral, but that is not how it always comes across. The same with DD, although I know that she is a compassionate person and cares about death and injuries upon both sides.

Me.....god doesn’t know....because I don’t believe in one....but I know where I stand and what I believe and think. I know what my ideas and views are.

Should I foljow a certain protocol and produce opinions, which only go along with those that other people hold? If so....sorry...you’ll never get that from me....upon any subject. I think for myself and do not believe all that is shoved before my eyes. Maybe I’m a free thinker.

I’m not pro or anti Israel. I’m not pro or anti Palestinian. I sometimes think, LDD, that you do not fully read the words of others, or understand them. I find you contradictory, at times, but I re-read and reread and get what you’re on about...I think...in the end.

I just don’t happen to think that the state of Israel is special.....any more special than any other part of the Middle East, or any other part of the world, where there is conflict and strife and where innocent men, women and children are being killed and maimed...and YES...I will keep mentioning the rest of the world... where far more terrible things are happening and yet, the UN, says not much at all and does even less and the western countries, put those situations on ignore, too.

There is oil in the Middle East.....there is pressure there and there is a big Jewish influence in political circles, finance, big business....that has to be kept sweet.

The UN should be sorting this out, as it was the UN who created Israel and the mess which has followed on. Every single country in the world should pressure the UN to act and MAKE both sides act in an humane and decent and respectful manner toward one another.

Perhaps one of the first things which should be discussed, is the removal of all Israel’s nuclear arms. It cannot be argued, by anyone, for any reason, that Israel has any more right to nuclear weapons, than any other country.

What we don’t need are certain people calling others names....doubting their intelligence, resorting to foul language and going on and on about how they would like to see Iran taken out.

These Middle Eastern countries, which some seem to look down on, such as Iraq (Babylon), Iran (Persia) and the land which was home to Israelites/Canaanites, Samaritans, Philistines etc, etc, had rich and flourishing cultures, when the European ancestors of people, in many countries, were still to reach any kind of sophistication, in culture, art and great learning. Let that be a lesson to all.

I know where I stand.....for the human rights, of all, upon this planet and a day when we can all respect different belief systems...or disbelief....and rejoice in the fact that there is such a great diversity of faith, disbelief, political thought, culture to be found upon the planet.

Do you know where you stand?

[Canticle]

The fact that Palestine still exists is proof that you are wrong.

Israel could wipe them off the planet if it chose. And it would take less than a week.

Pasa

There you go again, talking about the israeli ability to wipe out the Palestinians, in less than a week, should the fancy take them. This shows a distinct lack of caring...it really does and that bomb 'em to bits and shoot first, ask questions later, mentality, that will never get humankind anywhere.

It's a distasteful and frightening attitude toward human life and existence.

[Canticle]

Once again, Fran, Heph, Tenni, hardnbubbly.....thank you for your posts.

[Hephaestion]

Apologies for the delay in replying - diverting matters.

DD - one of the links was the BBC news

LDD - I try to be neutral but confess that I gravitate towards the plight of the Palestinians especially on the matter of the convoy which was the subject of this topic.

I have spotted the revival of the phosphous shell disagreement which as far as I am concerned was done and dusted with criticism again for the Israelis. They have so much going for them and yet they manage to blight themselves time and again.

It is a curious anachronism that the Nazis of WW2 were the ones who tried to support the Zionists of their day to set up a Jewish homeland in the very place that it eventually became a reality in. This promoted by the victors of WW2 as a reaction to the oppression that european Jews were eventually to receive at the hands of the same Nazis.

The Israelis probably could wipe out their immediate and visible opponents militarily and within a week but likely it would be a Pyrrhic victory and it would offer only a temporary respite. Can one really wipe out all anatgonism that way? Maybe they have learnt that much from the plight of their WW2 relatives.

There are plans for improvements in the welfare of the Palestinians and the Israelis are altering their stance. These are both good moves. The world is not only watching, it is getting involved on this basis. Here's hoping.

[tenni]

I remember one of the people on the floatilla stating that the UN and world had ignored or abandoned the Palestinians and that is why he was on the floatilla. He saw injustice. Face it, most of us were not paying any attention fo the past three years to the plight of Gaza. This has brought it to the world's attention. I wish that you are correct Heph that a change in providing aid so that Gazans may begin to build a real economy rather than being philosophical children being feed by Israel and international aid groups. Gaza need to get its businesses and factories working.

[Pasadenacpl2]

There you go again, talking about the israeli ability to wipe out the Palestinians, in less than a week, should the fancy take them. This shows a distinct lack of caring...it really does and that bomb 'em to bits and shoot first, ask questions later, mentality, that will never get humankind anywhere.

It's a distasteful and frightening attitude toward human life and existence.

No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

That's not proof of anything.

Israel treats the Palestinian people as sub human second class citizens and attack Palestinians yet somehow it's excusable or OK for them to do this in your mind.

Life in settlements for Palestinians is like life was for the Jews in the Nazi ghettos. Just wait until the ethnic "cleansing" of Palestinians begins.

Are you so blind that you automatically think that Israel is some innocent lamb and has done nothing wrong at all? <----- This is a rhetorical question so do not bother answering it and we all know the answer.

You keep using the wrong fact that Israel has the capability of destroying all Palestinians or Moslems somehow yet this hypothetical argument does not hold water at all.

I'm sure you would like to see all Palestinians and Moslems wiped off the face of the Earth. :rolleyes:

You are wrong. Each and every statement in this post is wrong, both individually, and when taken as a whole (even the rhetorical statement). In fact, I didn't think anyone could be more wrong than Canticle usually is, and yet, you succeeded. Yay You!

Pasa

[mariersa]

Three different investigations have been conducted by the IAEA to see if Israel has used phosphorous. In all three cases they have said no.

That difference is all the difference in the world.

Pasa
www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322 [/URL]

Gosh, it's neutral Cambodia afaterall, it's an impossible arguement, I guess the solution is to move all of Isreal to Florida. Why continue to support an illegimate, ill-gotten state made from an agreement to provide a necessary amunnition component made between a Russian Zionist and those who required the component. Unfortunatently, Zionism is absolutely in control of modern Isreali politics. Yes, indeed ask the "originl Jews" those who still abide by their original books, those hasetics(sp) why aren't they in power, afterall they are the "true children". OH shyt, I forgot, they believe in just "loving" thine "neighbour" etc.

[Canticle]

Apologies for the delay in replying - diverting matters.

DD - one of the links was the BBC news

LDD - I try to be neutral but confess that I gravitate towards the plight of the Palestinians especially on the matter of the convoy which was the subject of this topic.

I have spotted the revival of the phosphous shell disagreement which as far as I am concerned was done and dusted with criticism again for the Israelis. They have so much going for them and yet they manage to blight themselves time and again.

It is a curious anachronism that the Nazis of WW2 were the ones who tried to support the Zionists of their day to set up a Jewish homeland in the very place that it eventually became a reality in. This promoted by the victors of WW2 as a reaction to the oppression that european Jews were eventually to receive at the hands of the same Nazis.

The Israelis probably could wipe out their immediate and visible opponents militarily and within a week but likely it would be a Pyrrhic victory and it would offer only a temporary respite. Can one really wipe out all anatgonism that way? Maybe they have learnt that much from the plight of their WW2 relatives.

There are plans for improvements in the welfare of the Palestinians and the Israelis are altering their stance. These are both good moves. The world is not only watching, it is getting involved on this basis. Here's hoping.

Yes, here's hoping.

[Canticle]

I remember one of the people on the floatilla stating that the UN and world had ignored or abandoned the Palestinians and that is why he was on the floatilla. He saw injustice. Face it, most of us were not paying any attention fo the past three years to the plight of Gaza. This has brought it to the world's attention. I wish that you are correct Heph that a change in providing aid so that Gazans may begin to build a real economy rather than being philosophical children being feed by Israel and international aid groups. Gaza need to get its businesses and factories working.

So do I, because thereare innocent people, who just want to live a life and see their children grow up and love and be happy.

[Canticle]

No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.

Pasa

I think that we ALL comprehend, what you write and some of it isn't at all nice. in fact some of it is quite vicious.

[Canticle]

There's something called keeping an open mind and looking at something from all opinions.

Stop reading Pro-Israel sites, swallowing the flavor-ade/kool aid, and do your own research and you will see what myself, Canticle, Tenni, hardandbubbly, and darkeyes writing about how Israel is not for peace and treating Palestinians like subhumans is true.

Until then your arguments that Israel is somehow for peace are completely moot and foolish drivel since you've shown that you have no idea what you are talking about.

He also falls down, when he needs to resort to insults and quite nasty words. I don't find that very immature you can bet that pasa has not looked at any of the links posted by people, other than pro Israeli people.

[mariersa]

I crossed this by accident, hmmm, seems sort of pro/con/pro/con

.Yishuv (Hebrew: ישוב‎, literally "settlement") or Ha-Yishuv (the Yishuv, Hebrew: הישוב‎, or the full term הישוב היהודי בארץ ישראל Hayishuv Hayehudi b'Eretz Yisrael ("The Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel") is the term used in Hebrew referring to the body of Jewish residents in the Holy Land before the establishment of the State of Israel. The residents and new settlers were referred to collectively as "the Yishuv" or "Ha-Yishuv." The term came into use in the 1880s, when there were about 25,000 Jews living in Eretz Yisrael, and continued to be used until 1948, by which time there were about 700,000 Jews there, and is used in Hebrew even nowadays to denote the Pre-State Jewish residents in the Holy Land.

A distinction is sometimes drawn between the Old Yishuv and the New Yishuv.

The Old Yishuv refers to all the Jews living there before the aliyah of 1882 by the Zionist movement. The Old Yishuv residents were religious Jews living mainly in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. Smaller communities were in Jaffa, Haifa, Peki'in, Acre, Nablus, Shfaram and until 1779 also in Gaza. A large part of the Old Yishuv concentrated their time in Torah studies and lived off Ma'amodot (stipends), received by donations from the Jews in the Diaspora.

The New Yishuv refers to those who built homes outside the Old City walls of Jerusalem in the 1860s, and to the establishment of Petah Tikva and the First Aliyah of 1882, followed by the founding of settlements until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

The First Aliyah was the very beginning of the creation of the New Yishuv. More than 25,000 Jews immigrated to Israel. The immigrants came to Israel with the idea of creating a national home for Jews. Most of the immigrants were Russians escaping the pogroms, as well as some Yemenites. Many of the immigrants were affiliated with Habbayit Hayehudi/Hovevei Tzion. Hovevei Tzion purchased land from Arabs and created many different settlements such as Yesod Hamaalah, Rosh Pinna, Gedera, Rishon Le'tzion, Nes Tziona & Rechovot. These agricultural settlements were supported by philanthropists from abroad, chiefly Theodore Rothschild. Eliezer Ben-Yehuda arrived in the first Aliyah. He took it upon himself to revive the Hebrew language. He along with Nissim Bechar started a school for teaching Hebrew and later on founded the first Hebrew newspaper.

During the Second Aliyah in 1903-1914 35,000 new immigrants came over primarily from Russia.

During the Ottoman Empire
The Ottoman government was not very supportive of the new settlers from the First and Second Aliyah, specifically those that retained their former nationality. The Ottoman government officially restricted Jewish immigration. Those who adopted Ottoman nationality were liable for the Turkish draft. The settlers faced some very hard times. There were many epidemics in Palestine at this time, impoverishing and killing many. The Yishuv relied on money from abroad to support the settlements.

By 1914, the old Yishuv was a minority and the new Yishuv began to express itself and its Zionist goals. Labor organizations were created along with health and cultural services, all run by the Va’ad Leumi. The first Hebrew high schools were opened in Palestine as well as the Technion, the first institution for higher learning. Hashomer, a Zionist self defense group, was created to protect the Jewish settlements. Arthur Ruppin created the Palestine Office for land acquisition along with agricultural and urban expansion.

The Zionist movement tried to find work for the new immigrants who arrived in the Second Aliyah. However, most were middle class and were not physically fit or knowledgeable in agricultural work. The Jewish plantation owners had previously hired Arab workers who accepted low wages and were very familiar with agriculture. The leaders of the Zionist movement insisted that plantation owners (those who arrived in the First Aliyah) only hire Jewish workers and grant higher wages. The conquest of labor was a major Zionist goal. However, this caused some turmoil in the Yishuv for there were those who felt that they were discriminating against the Arabs just as they had been discriminated against in Russia. The Arabs became bitter from the discrimination despite the small number of Arabs that were affected by this.

During World War I, the conditions for the Jews in the Ottoman Empire worsened. All those Jews who were of an enemy nationality were exiled and others were drafted into the Turkish army. Many of those exiled fled to Egypt and the United States. Those who remained in Palestine faced hard economic times. There was disagreement whether to support the British or the Turks. A clandestine group, Nili, was established to pass information to the British in the hope of defeating the Turks and ending their rule over Palestine. The purpose and members of the Nili were discovered. All involved were executed by the Turks except its founder, Aaron Aaronsohn, who escaped to Egypt. During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine diminished by a third due to deportations, immigration, economic trouble and disease. During World War I, there were two British battalions of Jews, called the Zion Mule Corps, who were to fight on the front of Palestine. They helped in the British capture of Palestine, leading to the Turkish surrender. The members of the Zion Mule Corps later made up the Yishuv's defense groups that would fight against the British.

During the British Mandate
World War I ended, along with the Ottoman Empire. Britain gained control of Palestine through the Sykes-Picot Agreement. There was hope that British control would allow the creation of a Jewish national homeland as promised in the Balfour Declaration. The British Mandate was formalized in 1922 based on the Balfour Declaration. The British were supposed to help the Jews build a national home and promote the creation of self-governing institutions. The mandate provided for an agency in which the Jews could represent Jewish interests and promote Jewish immigration. It was called the Jewish Agency for Palestine, and was only created ten years later, serving as the de-facto government of the Yishuv. Along with a Jewish agency there was to be a general self-governing institution created in Palestine including Jews and Arabs. The yishuv feared such an institution due to the Arab majority, but none was created in the end due to the Arabs' refusal to cooperate with the Jews or British. The optimism that existed in the beginning of the British mandate soon diminished due to continued hardships in the Yishuv. Most of the European funds that supported the Jewish settlements before World War I ended. The Arabs instigated riots against the Jews due to their opposition to the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate. The British limited immigration through yearly quotas; only those who received "certificates" could make Aliyah.

Arab Riots
There were Arab riots throughout 1920-21 in opposition to the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs tried to show the British the instability of Palestine and that a Jewish homeland was ungovernable. Riots increased in 1929 after the fourth Aliyah. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing them and taking their jobs away. These riots were also instigated by false rumors that the Jews were planning on building a synagogue near the western wall. These riots led to the evacuation of Hebron's indigenous Jewish population.

White papers
The British responded to the Arab riots with the White Papers. The white papers attempted to stop immigration to Palestine based on the Hope Simpson Report, which stated that Palestine after economic development could only support 20,000 more immigrant families so as not to infringe on the Arab population's placement and employment. Upon Jewish criticism of this policy it was clarified that immigration would not be stopped.

There were many Jewish immigrants that arrived throughout the 1930s in the fifth Aliyah despite the immigration quotas. Many who came were fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe. Those that came from Nazi Germany were able to come because of the Hesder agreement. This allowed Jews to escape from Germany to Palestine in return for paying a ransom to the Reich. The Yishuv now had a population of about 400,000.

The Palestinian revolt
The increasing numbers of Jewish immigration and land purchases along with the British Mandate angered the Arabs, bringing them to radicalism. In April 1936, Arabs attacked a Jewish bus leading to a series of incidents that escalated into a major Palestinian rebellion. The British were caught by surprise and were unable to prevent the thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews that were killed in the revolt. The Haganah protected the Yishuv’s settlements while the Irgun and Etzel, more radical groups, attacked Arab settlements. A coalition of recently formed Arab political parties formed the Arab Higher Committee (AHC). It declared a national strike in support of three basic demands: cessation of Jewish immigration, an end to all further land sales to the Jews, and the establishment of an Arab national government. The Arabs threatened that if the British didn't comply with their demands then they would join the adversaries of the British. This concerned the British for World War II was just beginning and they knew they would need Middle Eastern oil. The British worked with their Arab allies to bring a halt to the AHC riots. The Peel Commission reported, in July 1937, that the British obligations to the Arabs and Zionists were irreconcilable and the mandate unworkable. It suggested the partition of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states, with the British mandate governing over Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem along with a corridor from Jerusalem to the coast. The Jews accepted the general principal of a partition while the Arabs refused any partition plan. The British government sent a technical team called the Woodhead Commission to detail the plan. The Woodhead Commission in the end concluded that the partition was impractical.

The Palestinian Revolt broke out again in the autumn of 1937. The British ended the revolt using harsh measures, deporting many Palestinian Arab leaders and shutting down the AHC. In the Yishuv, the Palestinian Revolt reinforced the already firm belief in the need for a strong Jewish defense network. Finally, the Arab agricultural boycott that began in 1936 forced the Jewish economy into even greater self-sufficiency. The Haganah during this period changed from being a small clandestine militia to a large military force. The British security forces at this time cooperated with the Haganah to tame the Arabs. In 1938 Captain Orde Wingate created the Special Night Squads (SNS) that were comprised mostly of Haganah members. SNS used the element of surprise in night raids to protect the Jewish settlements and attack the Arabs.

White Paper of 1939
The British suppressed the revolt and published the White Paper of 1939. It allowed for a total of only 75,000 Jews to enter Palestine over a five-year period. During this time the Yishuv entered a period of relative peace with the Arabs of Palestine.

During World War II
The Yishuv wanted to help their fellow Jews who were being murdered by the Nazis in Eastern Europe. Many Jews from Eastern Europe were prevented from fleeing to Palestine by strict immigration quotas established by the white papers. The Jewish Agency organized illegal immigration from 1939 through 1942 with the help of the Haganah. Those who arrived illegally to Israel during this time were part of the Aliyah bet. This was a dangerous operation, for these illegal immigrants arrived by boat and had to be careful not to be caught by the British or Nazis. Many of these ships sank or were caught, such as the Patria (Patra), Struma and SS Bulgaria. Compared to the number of attempts few ships actually arrived successfully to Palestine, but tens of thousands of Jews were saved by the illegal immigration.

The Yishuv also wanted to help on the front lines to try and save Jews from the Nazi atrocities. In 1942 the Jewish agency turned to the British to offer their assistance by sending Jewish volunteers to Europe as emissaries of the Yishuv to organize local resistance and rescue operations among the Jewish communities. The British accepted the proposal but on a much smaller scale than the Jewish agency had hoped. They only took Jewish parachutists who were recent immigrants from certain targeted countries that they wanted to infiltrate. The British Special Forces and military intelligence both consented to the volunteers' dual role as British agents and Jewish emissaries. 110 Yishuv members were trained; however only 32 were deployed. Many of them succeeded in helping the POWs and uprisings in the Jewish communities, while others were caught.

The Baltimore declaration
Despite the reports of Nazi atrocities growing and the desperation of Jews needing a safe haven the British kept the doors of Palestine closed to Jewish Immigration. The Zionist leaders met in a hotel in Baltimore and concluded that due to the British behavior, the British were an enemy to be fought.

Palestine post World War II
Hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors were being held in Displaced Persons Camp (DP Camps) aching to go to Palestine. The British received much international pressure, specifically from U.S. president Harry Truman, to change their policy on immigration. Despite Britain's dependence on American economic aid, the British refused, claiming that they were experiencing too much resistance from the Arabs and Jews already in Palestine and feared what would happen if more were allowed to enter. The refusal to remove the white paper policy angered and radicalized the Yishuv. The Yishuv's militia groups set out to sabotage the British infrastructure in Palestine and continue in their illegal immigration efforts. In 1946 the British responded to the Yishuv's efforts and began a two week search for Jews suspected of anti-British activities, arresting many of the Haganah's leaders. While the British were busy looking for the Haganah, the Irgun and Lehi carried out attacks on British forces. The most famous of their attacks was on the King David Hotel, the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. This location was chosen because a few weeks before a large quantity of documents was confiscated from the Haganah and brought there. Despite being warned by the Yishuv and told to evacuate the building the British officials decided not to listen, thereby resulting in British casualties. By 1947 the British had 100,000 troops in Palestine trying to maintain order and protect themselves. The British mandate was a major expense on the British, leading them to present the Palestine problem to the United Nations on May 15, 1947. The United Nations proposed a partition of Palestine into 2 states—Jewish and Arab (Resolution 181). The Jews accepted it, while the Arabs stated that they would do everything in their power to prevent it.

The AHC, determined to prevent Resolution 181 from coming into effect, began to attack and besiege the Jews. The British sided with the Arabs in an attempt to prevent the Yishuv from arming themselves. Jerusalem was held under a siege with no access to weapons, food or water. The Yishuv seemed helpless until it received a large shipment of arms from Czechoslovakia. The Haganah started fighting offensively from April through May. The Haganah mounted a full-scale operation, Operation Nachson. After much fighting and the crucial construction of a new road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the siege of Jerusalem was broken, allowing supplies to be brought to the city.

This operation's success helped Harry S. Truman recognize that the Jews would be able to protect themselves. Therefore the United States said it would support the establishment of a Jewish state. On May 14 1948 the Jews proclaimed the independent state of Israel and the British withdrew from Palestine. Despite having a Jewish state and an end to the British mandate, the Israelis were to face many more fights with the Arabs.

[Canticle]

www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322 [/URL]

Gosh, it's neutral Cambodia afaterall, it's an impossible arguement, I guess the solution is to move all of Isreal to Florida. Why continue to support an illegimate, ill-gotten state made from an agreement to provide a necessary amunnition component made between a Russian Zionist and those who required the component. Unfortunatently, Zionism is absolutely in control of modern Isreali politics. Yes, indeed ask the "originl Jews" those who still abide by their original books, those hasetics(sp) why aren't they in power, afterall they are the "true children". OH shyt, I forgot, they believe in just "loving" thine "neighbour" etc.

Thank you for that link Marie. We can't really be surprised by what it tells us. The hand that offers to host negotiations, between countries in conflict, often tells the other hand to supply arms.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, you may think that you are neutral, but that is not how it always comes across.

for crying out loud.... can you at least make one post to me..... not bits and pieces spread like shrapnel from a frag shell in a number of posts???? you may have a short attention span when it comes to multi posting, quoting everything you can in the thread, and boring us to death with you self proclaimed usage of the queens english etc.....but I do not

ok.... I am neutral, the way you think, puts a biased spin on my stance....as you tend to post a lot about your stance on propaganda and pro israelis and fundmentalist zionists....

if you have noticed, and i do doubt it, I steer clear of arguing about the past history of israel and gaza, and I am focusing mainly on the aid ships, the Israeli boarding of the ships...and the aid issue, which was what the thread was about......

most of my posts are more than one sentence, they contain info and understanding by me, in the form of a written opinion about the flotilla, the israeli boarding and the aid shipments in to gaza......

I have stated clearly that my opinions are not swayed by countries, as my opinion would be the same regardless if it was the us, canada, australia, hell even tibet boarding the aid flotilla.....

btw, you STILL have not provided any links as I asked for..... the links from sites you deem to not be using propaganda...... yet you still say others links are propaganda......

if other peoples sources of info is so wrong, please feel free to share yours.... as I have asked, 3 times now, and you have avoided addressing your failure to provide any

[Long Duck Dong]

btw brother jack / canticle.... do you remember refering to your attendance at the spiritual church ( and your admittance that you do not really believe in the churchs stance ).... that would lead me to believe that you have a understanding of the bible ( I base that on your statements that you tried to teach adamkadmon about devinity )..... so I am gonna request that you share what the bible says about the children of israel.....

as I am pretty sure, that if you attend church and profess to have tried to teach others... that you would at least be able to assist in this matter.....

[Canticle]

Thank you again, Marie. An interesting read and it shows how big a problem the Middle east is and how very difficult to ever obtain peace, there.

[Canticle]

for crying out loud.... can you at least make one post to me..... not bits and pieces spread like shrapnel from a frag shell in a number of posts???? you may have a short attention span when it comes to multi posting, quoting everything you can in the thread, and boring us to death with you self proclaimed usage of the queens english etc.....but I do not

ok.... I am neutral, the way you think, puts a biased spin on my stance....as you tend to post a lot about your stance on propaganda and pro israelis and fundmentalist zionists....

if you have noticed, and i do doubt it, I steer clear of arguing about the past history of israel and gaza, and I am focusing mainly on the aid ships, the Israeli boarding of the ships...and the aid issue, which was what the thread was about......

most of my posts are more than one sentence, they contain info and understanding by me, in the form of a written opinion about the flotilla, the israeli boarding and the aid shipments in to gaza......

I have stated clearly that my opinions are not swayed by countries, as my opinion would be the same regardless if it was the us, canada, australia, hell even tibet boarding the aid flotilla.....

btw, you STILL have not provided any links as I asked for..... the links from sites you deem to not be using propaganda...... yet you still say others links are propaganda......

if other peoples sources of info is so wrong, please feel free to share yours.... as I have asked, 3 times now, and you have avoided addressing your failure to provide any

LDD.....that is how you come over to me...sorry...but it is. I've said the links were Israeli propaganda. I haven't needed to provide any other new links.....others have done that and from fairly liberal sources.

[mariersa]

Crossed this one also sort of con/pro/con/pro damnit why can't i find a simple answer to my question?? oh well, temper, temper folks

The shrewdness of the Zionist Israeli government is beyond imagination.

Israeli leaders have managed to outsmart the world in the way they conduct politics. One of their craftiest and most successful epics is the myth of Zionism as a positive ideology that has contributed to the preservation of Jewish nationalism and Jewish interests.

The argument is too simple, an ideology that resulted from mixing Fascist European teachings and Jewish racial supremacy with a light touch of early Zionist creatively and manipulation, can never be positive.

Although many don’t even dare to repeat the thought in their heads, save uttering it in public, the Zionist ideology is pure Jewish racial supremacy, not Jewish nationalism as some claim. What else would you call ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, and the alliance between the Israeli government and religious institutions to keep the Jewish race pure? Such purity is the ultimate and the most determining factor that distinguishes an Arab from a Jew in Israel, or a Jew from a more or less pure Jew.

It’s appalling that such blunt racism is dealt with so openly, as if it is just a normal affair that every nation has the right to embrace if it wishes. The endless debate on "who is a Jew?" which is often featured in the New York Times, and which occupies the time and efforts of Israelis in the government, media and religious institutions, is perceived as if it is merely innocent cultural dialogue.

How many Americans are going to be happy if they hear that the US government, churches and media are busy debating how can they keep the "white" race pure, and that every new immigrant to this country has to present a certificate proving that he is the descendant of a white family, otherwise he has no rights for citizenship, no rights for ownership, no rights at all.

In Israel, this has and will always be the case. Yet the aggravating double standards make many of us pass through this disturbing fact as if no harm was done.

The relations between the Zionist settlement in Palestine and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is an issue that was put forth repeatedly by the leading Zionist intellectuals since the coming about of the notorious movement.

No one can state it clearer than Prominent Israeli visionary Yeshaauahu Ben Porat. In 1972, Ben Porat was quoted by the daily Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot as saying, "There is no Zionist settlement, and there is no Jewish State, without displacing Arabs and without confiscating lands and fencing them off."

In 1973, David Hacohen, Israeli Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Knesset clarified that the issue of displacing Arabs was not simply meant to use Arab homes for Jewish immigrants from Europe during the WWII. The reason is much simpler. It’s simply because, "they are not human beings, they are not people, they are all Arabs."

The Israel government confirmed and adopted the racist principals of Zionism in 1950, when the Israeli Knesset passed the Law of Return.

The deceptive name is meant to generate an emotional reaction of an innocent like you, but the law has in reality given Jews from all over the world the right to go and live in Palestine with full citizenship privileges. On the other hand, it passed the Absentee Property Law, seizing the land and properties of Palestinian refugees who were expelled or forced to flee.

Understanding the shameful reality of present day Israel can be furthered by pondering this quote by the respected Jewish writer Uri Davis: It is "not only the Palestinian non-Jew who is excluded from his or her rights to an undisputed citizenship. Large categories of Jews are similarly excluded: Jewish bastards, Jewish persons born to non Jewish mothers, Jewish persons born to Jewish mothers who converted to another religion, and non-Jewish converted to Judaism by conservative or reform rabbis as only Jewish orthodox conversion procedures are recognized in Israel."

Despite all of the this, Western media still raves and even proudly praises the racism of Israel, dubbing it often as the "Jewish State". Those who "dare to speak out" against such vulgarity are rebuffed by the same media who is quick to unleash the ever successful strategy of Anti Semitism, a deceptive tactic that is meant to defer the world’s attention from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and the murderous campaign launched against them.

Thanks to the naivete planted in people’s minds by decades of media deception, and thanks to the intimidation and constant harassment of intellectuals and ordinary citizens who question Israel’s racism and brutality, not so many people question Israel’s policies.

What does anti-Semitism have to do with Israel’s human rights violations?

Aren’t Arabs and other nations Semitic as well? How can an Arab be anti Semitic? Anti himself?

Why is racism applauded in Israel and criticized elsewhere?

What sin have the Palestinian people committed to be driven out of their lands and "fenced off"?

Why is the American government funding an apartheid state like Israel?

Who is more deserving of American tax money: racist settlers equipped with automatic riffles chasing behind Palestinian children in Gaza’s refugee camps, or America’s poor, America’s welfare programs, disease research centers, and under-funded schools?

Doesn’t the Bible state, "blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be satisfied"?

Let the Quran, the Bible and the principals of truth and justice be your guide, not the endless lies of Zionism and Zionists, who are with no doubt, the worlds’ masters of deception.

But I won't change my mind, it's still an ill-legal State, apprently very well thought out.

Did someone say Appartheid?????

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD.....that is how you come over to me...sorry...but it is. I've said the links were Israeli propaganda. I haven't needed to provide any other new links.....others have done that and from fairly liberal sources.

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

[Canticle]

btw brother jack / canticle.... do you remember refering to your attendance at the spiritual church ( and your admittance that you do not really believe in the churchs stance ).... that would lead me to believe that you have a understanding of the bible ( I base that on your statements that you tried to teach adamkadmon about devinity )..... so I am gonna request that you share what the bible says about the children of israel.....

as I am pretty sure, that if you attend church and profess to have tried to teach others... that you would at least be able to assist in this matter.....

My name is Canticle. I have stated that I am a Christian Spiritualist and far more in the spiritual realm, than religious, these days. I have said that I have never had any time for the established Churches and many of their teachings. You will be aware that a Christian Spiritualist Church, is not part of what is classed, the established church.

I have never said that I do not believe in my church's stance (not that I am sure what you mean by that). If i did not feel comfortable and at ease within the community of my church, I would not have remained a member. I was a Christian, for over 30 years, before I joined any form of church. I stayed with that church, because of the people, not any doctrine it may have had.

Christian Spiritualists do not believe in witnessing their beliefs and individual Spiritualists, will see things very differently. We respect the personal belief or disbelief, of every human and consider that love is the most important thing, along with personal responsibility and the opportunity for every soul, or spirit to progress toward the light.

Adamkadmon43 has nothing to do with anything that I have written here. And please do not insult his intellect, for he is an extremely intelligent man and well read......far more well read than I.....When it comes to books about religionn he is exceptionally well read. I would never have needed to explain divinity or theology to him. He is bright enough to find out for himself.......with all the research he does. Nevertheless, this does not mean that a person knows, or understand everything. None of us can do that.

You may be getting confused with me saying, that I had had many discussions with him about my beliefs, which he does not share, nor would I expect him to. I haven't had to teach him anything. he understands things that many people would not be able to comprehend. I have tried to get him to be more accepting of why and what people believe and to not be so dogmatic. However, it is his choice, to come to his own conclusions about things. I am not his controller.

But LDD, I have never said, that I have tried to teach anyone, anything. I really don't understand where you get that from. I have been a Christian...my kind of Christianity, since I was 15, 40 years; so I was a christian before you were born. I have never had any life changing revelations, I am not a born again Christian and I was not brought up, within a family that attended church.

I may disapprove of the established churches and I was Christened in a Church of England church, but I have enough respevt for these institutions, that I would never misuse them. Hence, I was not married in church. To have done that would have been hypocritical and my three children have not been Christened. Again...I would not misuse the church. What they wish to believe, or not believe, is up to them. As long as they are decent people, that is all that matters.

I studied Religious Education and took examinations at 16 and had I not left school at 17.5 years, I would have taken another public examination and hopefully, have gone on to train as a teacher. I wanted to teach Religious Education. However, I did not and I am very glad, but I do wish I had studied theology and divinity at university......not because of any religious zeal...but because I find the subject fascinating.

When it comes to the Bible......I don't really know what you are trying to draw me into saying. The Bible, I believe, should not and was never meant to be taken literally. There is history, bunkum, inspiring words, daring do stories, war, adultery, murder, laws to allow for the control of a society, teaching and preaching. I take from it the inspirational words of a man called Jesus and the moving words to be found in places, such as Eccliastes. The original books of the Old Testament, were written over two thousand years ago. The Bible has been translated many times, mistranslated, changed deliberately and in translating, often misunderstood.

I don't believe that the Jews were a chosen nation of a god. A god, whom I do not believe in. I do not believe in a creator god, but I am not an atheist. My Christian beliefs are my own, personal belief and right from the word go, I called Jesus, the Son of Man, never the Son of God. I have never believed in a virgin birth, or that Judas betrayed Jesus, but was working with him, to procure an end he knew had to happen. He had to be a martyr. Guess what, I believe he died on the cross and there was no resurrection.....except a resurrectio in the hearts and minds of his followers, that they could go on, without him, teaching his words.

So, have you achieved what you set out to do. I doubt it. My belief is my own, just as yours is personal to you. I respect the belief and disbelief of others, do not believe in preaching and do not believe in trying to convert people. As we say in my church, ''If a person's belief or disbelief, sits well with them, then you leave well alone.'' OK.

In case you are unaware and would like more reading material, look up the Nag Hammadi Library on the Internet and read the Gospel of St Thomas. Also try the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. There are others. Most rejected at the Convention at Nicea, in the 5th century.....the church was still very young and needed to stay...''safe.''

You didn't succeed LDD.........I am far brighter than you imagine.

So, all you achieved, was to take the thread, totally off topic. Did you think that I would dig my own grave? Smiles......Sorry.....will never do that......for anyone.

[Canticle]

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

Oh, and what has Adamkadmon said? Have you been having a great discussion with him, about me. In what way is he vindicated? Do tell me? You speak as if you know the man, which you do not. Please enlighten me about his vindication.....I am fascinated.

[Long Duck Dong]

My name is Canticle. I have stated that I am a Christian Spiritualist and far more in the spiritual realm, than religious, these days. I have said that I have never had any time for the established Churches and many of their teachings. You will be aware that a Christian Spiritualist Church, is not part of what is classed, the established church.

I have never said that I do not believe in my church's stance (not that I am sure what you mean by that). If i did not feel comfortable and at ease within the community of my church, I would not have remained a member. I was a Christian, for over 30 years, before I joined any form of church. I stayed with that church, because of the people, not any doctrine it may have had.

Christian Spiritualists do not believe in witnessing their beliefs and individual Spiritualists, will see things very differently. We respect the personal belief or disbelief, of every human and consider that love is the most important thing, along with personal responsibility and the opportunity for every soul, or spirit to progress toward the light.

Adamkadmon43 has nothing to do with anything that I have written here. And please do not insult his intellect, for he is an extremely intelligent man and well read......far more well read than I.....When it comes to books about religionn he is exceptionally well read. I would never have needed to explain divinity or theology to him. He is bright enough to find out for himself.......with all the research he does. Nevertheless, this does not mean that a person knows, or understand everything. None of us can do that.

You may be getting confused with me saying, that I had had many discussions with him about my beliefs, which he does not share, nor would I expect him to. I haven't had to teach him anything. he understands things that many people would not be able to comprehend. I have tried to get him to be more accepting of why and what people believe and to not be so dogmatic. However, it is his choice, to come to his own conclusions about things. I am not his controller.

But LDD, I have never said, that I have tried to teach anyone, anything. I really don't understand where you get that from. I have been a Christian...my kind of Christianity, since I was 15, 40 years; so I was a christian before you were born. I have never had any life changing revelations, I am not a born again Christian and I was not brought up, within a family that attended church.

I may disapprove of the established churches and I was Christened in a Church of England church, but I have enough respevt for these institutions, that I would never misuse them. Hence, I was not married in church. To have done that would have been hypocritical and my three children have not been Christened. Again...I would not misuse the church. What they wish to believe, or not believe, is up to them. As long as they are decent people, that is all that matters.

I studied Religious Education and took examinations at 16 and had I not left school at 17.5 years, I would have taken another public examination and hopefully, have gone on to train as a teacher. I wanted to teach Religious Education. However, I did not and I am very glad, but I do wish I had studied theology and divinity at university......not because of any religious zeal...but because I find the subject fascinating.

When it comes to the Bible......I don't really know what you are trying to draw me into saying. The Bible, I believe, should not and was never meant to be taken literally. There is history, bunkum, inspiring words, daring do stories, war, adultery, murder, laws to allow for the control of a society, teaching and preaching. I take from it the inspirational words of a man called Jesus and the moving words to be found in places, such as Eccliastes. The original books of the Old Testament, were written over two thousand years ago. The Bible has been translated many times, mistranslated, changed deliberately and in translating, often misunderstood.

I don't believe that the Jews were a chosen nation of a god. A god, whom I do not believe in. I do not believe in a creator god, but I am not an atheist. My Christian beliefs are my own, personal belief and right from the word go, I called Jesus, the Son of Man, never the Son of God. I have never believed in a virgin birth, or that Judas betrayed Jesus, but was working with him, to procure an end he knew had to happen. He had to be a martyr. Guess what, I believe he died on the cross and there was no resurrection.....except a resurrectio in the hearts and minds of his followers, that they could go on, without him, teaching his words.

So, have you achieved what you set out to do. I doubt it. My belief is my own, just as yours is personal to you. I respect the belief and disbelief of others, do not believe in preaching and do not believe in trying to convert people. As we say in my church, ''If a person's belief or disbelief, sits well with them, then you leave well alone.'' OK.

In case you are unaware and would like more reading material, look up the Nag Hammadi Library on the Internet and read the Gospel of St Thomas. Also try the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. There are others. Most rejected at the Convention at Nicea, in the 5th century.....the church was still very young and needed to stay...''safe.''

You didn't succeed LDD.........I am far brighter than you imagine.

So, all you achieved, was to take the thread, totally off topic. Did you think that I would dig my own grave? Smiles......Sorry.....will never do that......for anyone.

I was actually refering to the verses of the bible that refer to israels children and gods word to them...... cos if the bible is correct, its matching what we are seeing with israel currently.....

I was not trying to misdirect at all...... I was asking a simple question, the biblical stance in regards to gods chosen

[Canticle]

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

''adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated''


What does this mean??

[Long Duck Dong]

www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322

ok a few things.....

the ship could carry 300 containers not 989, it would have sunk (check maritime specs for the ship )

amnesty international admits that they can not find the other 680 containers they were never unloaded at ashdod port.....

so we have a overloaded ship that could not carry that many containers, sailing and offloading all its cargo, minus 680 containers ???
and the ship sailed on dec 20th and the greek government shit bricks over the ship and refused to allow it to sail into greek ports, and it disappeared for a few weeks when it turned off its transponder.......
and the only online reference to it, is in april ??? actually april the 1st....... ahhh thats april fools day as well, but it may be coincidence
why did NO news agencies pick up on any of this ????

Amnesty international usa (http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGUSA20090402002)

[Hephaestion]

Mariersa - interresting articles.

Have I missed the entries which recount the following bits of information.

Balfour Declaration "...nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

The initial Arab reaction to the Balfour declaration was largely favorable or restrained, to the extent that many Arabs supported British war aims.

At the time, the population of Palestine was in the neighborhood of 670,000. Of these, the Jews numbered some 60,000. The Arabs thus constituted roughly 91 per cent of the population, while the Jews accounted for 9 per cent.

The British pointed out that the Balfour Declaration committed them to support a national home for the Jews in Palestine, not a Jewish state.

In the troubled and tangled history of the British Mandate in Palestine..... most historians of this period attribute to British policy a pro-Arab bias.

Still under the control of Britain, there was review of the mess in 1928 (already manifest) by Sir John Chancellor. He is recorded as saying in different arenas

"....What makes them (the Jews) difficult to deal with is that they are, regardless of the rights and feelings of others, very exacting in pressing their own claims. Even as a minority of the population of Palestine the Jews adopt towards the Arabs an attitude of arrogant superiority, which is hotly resented by the Arabs with their traditions of courtesy and good manners...."

(this reminiscent of Lord Curzon's initial reservations on the Balfour declarartion - "What is to become of the people of the country? . . . [The Arabs] and their forefathers have occupied the country for the best part of 1,500 years, and they own the soil. . . . They profess the Mohammedan faith. They will not be content either to be expropriated for Jewish immigrants or to act merely as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the latter")

"...The facts of the situation are that in the dire straits of the war, the British Government made promises to the Arabs and promises to the Jews which are inconsistent with one another and are incapable of fulfilment...."


The UK will stand in the corner, facing the wall, wearing a dunce cap.
They shall be joined by the USA for miscelaneous later and best intended actions e.g. those of ignoring earlier warnings.


Regardless - we live in hope..

[Canticle]

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

As you cannot tell me in what way, the above mentioned person has been vindicated and what about and what that person is supposed to have been telling the truth about, I will assume that there was nothing at all and this was done, purely to get me annoyed, or cause me to be rude or use foul language. I shall do none of these things, because I'm not like that and I don't lie and I don't try to mislead, unlike some people, I have had the misfortune to know.

If you want more videos, I shall try to find some, that are not on pro Israeli news networks. I saw no point, as so many had been posted. I did post some links, about something else......but the person was not interested in looking at those. Seems people just want to see, what they want to see. How sad.

[Long Duck Dong]

As you cannot tell me in what way, the above mentioned person has been vindicated and what about and what that person is supposed to have been telling the truth about, I will assume that there was nothing at all and this was done, purely to get me annoyed, or cause me to be rude or use foul language. I shall do none of these things, because I'm not like that and I don't lie and I don't try to mislead, unlike some people, I have had the misfortune to knowI

If you want more videos, I shall try to find some, that are not on pro Israeli news networks. I saw no point, as so many had been posted. I did post some links, about something else......but the person was not interested in looking at those. Seems people just want to see, what they want to see. How sad.

I have asked you to provide links to sites and videos, that disapprove other videos and links as propaganda............ as you seem happy to claim its propaganda, yet I can not see any proof that it was created by israel as a means to hide anything..... in fact I am seeing the opposite... its protest / anti israel sites that are doing the propaganda.....

now I look forward to the sites that back up your stance and yes I will review them fully and research the info in them......

I also do find interesting, the sudden change in reactions, when its your questions not being answered, ..... but unlike you, I can provide a answer.... its in the bisexual.com forums between you and brotherjack and adam..... happy reading....

[darkeyes]

You are wrong. Each and every statement in this post is wrong, both individually, and when taken as a whole (even the rhetorical statement). In fact, I didn't think anyone could be more wrong than Canticle usually is, and yet, you succeeded. Yay You!

Pasa

Just how long did the Nazis wait until they started seriously the job of exterminating the Jews and all those others they didnt like? And that was a nation on something like 70 million, and only really began iit while there was a full scale war on to distract attention from them.. Israel is a nation of some 4 million and it knows, as did Nazi Germany and Hitler that to do anything like that when there is a nominal peace in the world would not be allowed by the international community.. I am not saying they would do it as did the Nazis.. but if they did such would be the wrath of the world that the oppression they felt and the near extermination after Rome crushed the Jewish Revolt and the Jews dispersed would be as nothing compared to the reacation of the world.. the United States would abandon them in a minute or they themselves would be branded Nazi.. and without the United States they would not dare use nuclear weapons and without those, and by the reaction of the rest of the world they as a state have a very limited life..

I suggest you shut up about how long Israel would take to annihilate the Palestinians.. for quite simply they would not dare..

[Long Duck Dong]

the us is in the differcult situation fran that they do not want to lose their middle east strategic bases.....

honestly, I think that the us will continue to side step any issues with israel and gaza etc..... if they can avoid it.....

another thing I have found interesting.... is afghanistan is sitting on one of ( if not ) the words largest deposits of minerals and ores such as lithium ...... and that russia is sitting on the worlds largest oil and natural gas underground deposits.......

the fastest way to peace, is thru greed and desire..... not mutual understanding and compromise.....

[Canticle]

I have asked you to provide links to sites and videos, that disapprove other videos and links as propaganda............ as you seem happy to claim its propaganda, yet I can not see any proof that it was created by israel as a means to hide anything..... in fact I am seeing the opposite... its protest / anti israel sites that are doing the propaganda.....

now I look forward to the sites that back up your stance and yes I will review them fully and research the info in them......

I also do find interesting, the sudden change in reactions, when its your questions not being answered, ..... but unlike you, I can provide a answer.... its in the bisexual.com forums between you and brotherjack and adam..... happy reading....


Nowhere in any post I have ever made, have I lied. I don't lie, unless it is a white lie to protect or to stop a surprise from being spoiled. Why is it wrong to take someone to ask, if they are being rude or telling untruths. I know the truth of s situation and you have no idea how things have occurred. A line of type is not necessarily the truth and I have many lines of type where things are not as they seem. I have never lied, or tried to mislead anyone, with anything I have ever written, so you are very wrong with your one liner. very wrong. Give me four years of your time and I could set you right, but you won't do that, will you. You are wrong......no one has been vindicated...or proven to be a truth speaker. You have absolutely no idea. No idea at all.

[darkeyes]

the us is in the differcult situation fran that they do not want to lose their middle east strategic bases.....

honestly, I think that the us will continue to side step any issues with israel and gaza etc..... if they can avoid it.....

another thing I have found interesting.... is afghanistan is sitting on one of ( if not ) the words largest deposits of minerals and ores such as lithium ...... and that russia is sitting on the worlds largest oil and natural gas underground deposits.......

the fastest way to peace, is thru greed and desire..... not mutual understanding and compromise.....

Duckie hun.. every country is in a difficult situation.. the US certainly more than most.. but they cant side step a holocaust, and so Israel will never ever try.. I may dislike the Israeli state and its racist nature, I may loathe the Israeli government but the ordinary Israeli, save for a few of the more lunatic and orthodox elements, would no more stand for a palestinian holocaust than would the people of every other state..

..and what an awfully depressing view you take of achieving peace.. what you are actually saying is not that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace, but quite the opposite.. as has been proved throughout the annals of history.. and may yet prove to be the end of us all..

[Long Duck Dong]

Duckie hun.. every country is in a difficult situation.. the US certainly more than most.. but they cant side step a holocaust, and so Israel will never ever try.. I may dislike the Israeli state and its racist nature, I may loathe the Israeli government but the ordinary Israeli, save for a few of the more lunatic and orthodox elements, would no more stand for a palestinian holocaust than would the people of every other state..

..and what an awfully depressing view you take of achieving peace.. what you are actually saying is not that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace, but quite the opposite.. as has been proved throughout the annals of history.. and may yet prove to be the end of us all..

I am saying that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace..... if a country has something you desire, then you will make peace with them asap, cos invading them is not always possible.....

tho in the case of afghanistan I may make a exception..... lol.. and thats cos i find it interesting that they have us mineral and ore specialists there, currently surveying to prepare for mining....and we both know that there would not be peace between afghanistan and the us.....

but as a point of interest....
the us started serious talks with russia about disarmament after natural gas and oil was found under russia....

the us invades afghanistan, now they have surveyors and mining specialists in there at work.... didn't they have mining and surveying teams in kuwait and iran too

the us is side stepping in the middle east and they have middle east strategic bases there that they can not afford to lose.......

yet a large number of other countries barely get noticed by the us and indeed get left to suffer badly ......

no I am not accusing the us of anything, merely pointing out where my opinion has some tendrils

[darkeyes]

I am saying that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace..... if a country has something you desire, then you will make peace with them asap, cos invading them is not always possible.....

tho in the case of afghanistan I may make a exception..... lol.. and thats cos i find it interesting that they have us mineral and ore specialists there, currently surveying to prepare for mining....and we both know that there would not be peace between afghanistan and the us.....

but as a point of interest....
the us started serious talks with russia about disarmament after natural gas and oil was found under russia....

the us invades afghanistan, now they have surveyors and mining specialists in there at work.... didn't they have mining and surveying teams in kuwait and iran too

the us is side stepping in the middle east and they have middle east strategic bases there that they can not afford to lose.......

yet a large number of other countries barely get noticed by the us and indeed get left to suffer badly ......

no I am not accusing the us of anything, merely pointing out where my opinion has some tendrils

Isnt that called trade Duckie? As far as I know the world has been doing that since humans first got a working brain.. Its when countries are reluctant to trade that we get into difficulty..either they dont want to part with what they have to a certain country, or they dont want to be reliant on the vagiaries of trade and want access to it without interruption (such as oil and ore).. then we get into real problems.. and nowadays the great powers can relatively easily invade anywhere.. success is another matter.. and making things worse than they are for themselves and everyone else.

..but in many ways your analysis holds up.. like anyone else's analyses, includin mine own, its imperfect but as good as any.. it iis also another reason the US will give Israel only so much slack... :)

[tenni]

I read an interesting analysis of the situation in the middle east and the various roles of countries within that territory. A lot of the following are quotes from his analysis. I have not bothered to put quote marks in though.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/825870--siddiqui-new-middle-east-hinges-on-turkey?bn=1


Three new regional players – Turkey, Iran and the oil- and gas-rich states of the Persian Gulf are the new key players. Iran and Turkey are not arab states and that plays a significant role according to the reporter analysist states.


One aspect that posters are not discussing with much detail is the role of Turkey. Turkey has and still is an ally of Israel. Israel killed Turkish citizens with this blockade. Turkey has the second largest military among NATO nations. The only NATO nation with a larger military is the USA. Turkey is a democracy. Turkey's economy has bounced back quicker than some other countries. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has identified Turkey as among the rising powers the U.S. wants to do business with.

The PM of Turkey presently sits on the UN Security Council and has been acting independently of its allies , the USA and Israel. Along with Brazil Turkey came up with a compromise*over the Iranian nuclear dilemma, only to be rejected by Washington, which opted for a fourth round of economic sanctions.

Turkey's PM , Erdogan, has stated “Peace and stability will not come to the region as long as the blockade of Gaza persists,” a blockade that Israel has just agreed to ease under international pressure. He has also tried to play the mediator between Israel and Syria; Israel and Hamas; Georgia and Russia; Iraq and Syria; Americans and the Iraqi insurgents; Lebanon and Syria, and the various factions within Lebanon; and the warring factions in Somalia as well as Yemen.

The domestic battle in Turkey is not between secularists and Islamists, as portrayed, but between democrats and autocrats.

"The birth of the new Turkey has been welcomed by Arabs. “Turkey has become an asset to the whole region and that constitutes a stabilizing factor in the Arab world,” Abdullah Khaliq Abdullah, professor of political science at the Emirates University, Dubai, told me. “Turkey is welcome in all Arab capitals, whereas Iran is in two or three.”

Israel can not afford to lose Turkey as an ally. Turkey may succeed in breaking this blockade of Gaza. It seems that Turkey is not about to abandon Gaza.

[hardnbubbly]

Go read history book. Read about the PLO and read about the Oslo peace process.

The PLO renounced violence, recognized Israel and got nothing in return. Is


Good question. Good question indeed. We could ask the British the same question. They did the EXACT same thing.

Those borders were lost as a result of a war Israel didn't start. They have no right to demand a return to those borders.

So they have no rights at all. They should just sit there and continue being citizens of no country, with no right to vote, not right to travel, no right to dream about a bright future for their children.

I stated this before and I will state it again. There are exactly two choices for Israel that could work long term: 1. Keep every single inch of the land that they occupied which means they have to keep every single human living on those lands and give them equal rights
2. Accept a two state solution with two VIABLE states. Two equal states. Two peaceful neighbours.

Other than that, it will be apartheid, genocide, or whatever other inhumane solution there is.


But, this is not a struggle for human rights. This is a struggle of one nation who has a 'government' opposing it that has, AS IT'S STATED PURPOSE FOR BEING the eradication and elimination of the Jews. This is Israel fighting for its very survival.

IF, and I mean this, IF Palestine were to reject the idea that Israel should be destroyed, then I would agree with you 100%. That's a huge IF.

And the Israeli governments purpose is controlling the Arab populating and subjugating them so that the Zionists can rule supreme??
I bet you've never even heard the Palestinian narrative other than what Israel states. I mean I don't blame you, they are weak, disorganized and do not have the same access to the world as Israel does. Why would their narrative reach you anyway.



As long as Palestine has, as it's stated purpose for existing, the eradication of Israel from existing, then yes, it's valid. How could it not be? That doesn't make palestinians less than human. It makes them extremely human. When humans make choices, they suffer consequences for those choices.

Now, there is the REALLY important point: Israel rejects this idea. Israel could rid itself of it's problems easily. It would take less than a week. And yet, rather than rid itself of it's enemy, they have suffered decades of missile attacks. THAT is the difference between Israel and Gaza. Israel actually could do the Palestinians what Hamas has vowed to do to Israel. And yet, it chooses not to.
Pasa

Palestine? Where is that country? show it to me on the map?
Btw, Hamas is vowing to eliminate the state of Israel not the Jewish people. There is a huge difference there.

[Pasadenacpl2]

The PLO renounced violence? Really? Was this before, or after the rocket attacks after the Oslo accords? The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.

And then they decided to lynch two IDF members. And then they decided to send in a wave of suicide bombers. No. The PLO, nor the PLA, nor the Fata, nor the Hamas has ever been peaceful.

Yes, I've heard the Palestinian narrative. And before 1967, they had a case. Since 1967, they've become extremists. Extremists don't have a case. People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.

Vowing to eliminate the state of Israel is the same as vowing to eliminate the Jews. Ordinarily I'd say we were splitting hairs, but here I can't just chalk it up to that In fact, Not only Hamas, but Al Qaeda leader Al Zwahari stated on several occasions that Jihad against the Jews would not be limited to the region of "Palestine" (his word) but would be affected across the Globe. He has said, at least once, that no Jewish child anywhere is safe.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.


Pasa
I think that we ALL comprehend, what you write and some of it isn't at all nice. in fact some of it is quite vicious.

I'll note that you didn't actually address any of the content of my post. I'll take it that silence denotes agreement.

Pasa

[Canticle]

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

I take it that to come to your final conclusion, you had to consult someone's profile and then go through every single post....posts upon threads..where another name, was also posted. If there is another way of finding posts, I am unaware of it, so please do not think me stupid, or in any manner, ignorant, if I do not know of such a search area.

You would have been looking at threads from late in 2007, until last year, and having read the majority of those posts, I have yet to understand how you are able to declare that a certain person has been vindicated and was telling the truth. What you suggest is ludicrous.

I would also point out, that if a person, is but a line of type, upon a screen, it is impossible for you to know, what that person is really like. Having corresponded with people for many years....since I was a child....(and many of those people are from New Zealand), I know fulwell, that for a friendship to be absolutely realistic, it has to become as three dimensional, as possible.....even if two people never meet.

Three dimensional....in my experience....means emails, letters, phone and web cam contact, parcels, sharing certain aspects of ones life, with other people.....the joy of birth, the sorrow of death, a house fire and the death of a dearly beloved, only son, jobs, interests, hopes and dreams, laughter and tears.

I have done all this with the people, who have been my correspondents. I have even discussed...in letters....religion and politics......my passion for art and history and I have never lied to anyone, or felt that I had been lied to, until recent times.

So your claim of truth and vindication (whatever you mean by that), is not so, not as it may read to you and yet, you appear to be taken in by the words you want to believe and only those. The only thing I regret, is that I wasted my time, trying to rescue and hold on to the most amazing thing which has ever happened to me, when all along, from one side, at least, it was all a game.

The words written with another name, I have no need to be ashamed of, because I am a truthful and honourable person, who has almost had her very spirit broken. You know nothing LDD and yet you think you know all. You don't!

And why have you done this? becasue I dared to air a view and state that something appeared liked Israeli propaganda? Because I dared to miss at least one of your questions, or maybe didn't understand what you were requesting? Because I dare to have an opinion and yet not produce evidence, to back up that opinion? Since when, did having an opinion, require the necessity to produce link upon link....not original work.....about a subject. I am also of the opinion that Diana, Princess of Wales was murdered, yet I have no proof and neither do the countless numbers of people, of the same opinion.

I post some links, about the meaning of the word ''jihad,'' and the word 'martyr,'' and some people aren't interested in knowing or looking...well..at least one. Why? because the text may not agree with what they think and believe? It's like Holy War........a term majicked up by the Crusaders.....not the Muslims they went off to fight and throw out of Jerusalem.

So I'll let you know now, I'm intelligent, not a racist, not anti-semitic, not a liar and when it comes to it,,,,,and not from this thread.....I don't have three personae, nor am I one of the ''morons, idiots, troublemakers''...or a ''troll.'' I'm just me...a person with views and I air them.....and I don't think one has to necessarily produce evidence to support ones views....or opinion. I don't request it of others. Neither have I used foul language, or insulted someone by mocking their name. Yet you have called me ''ranticle'' and Pasa ''cunticle.'' How very mature and how very intelligent.

Please don't come back to me and say that you did not post certain things. I know what people post and do not post. I am saying...in type what I think and know and think and know to be true and where my opinions are concerned, what I think and believe to be right or wrong.

Now back to the subject of the thread. Thank you for hijacking it and trying to make this into...well. I am not sure what you have been trying to do.....but heck...you've gone down, in my estimation. I used to have a great deal of respect for your posts.

[Canticle]

I'll note that you didn't actually address any of the content of my post. I'll take it that silence denotes agreement.

Pasa

Pasa......I am not one to remain silent, or to run away. i answered your post my way.

Some might conclude that Israel, by her attacks, in recent years. upon different parts of the Middle East, has not shown restraint. When attacking Lebanon, not too long ago, world powers requested that the attacks stop. Did Israel take any notice? Israel does what Israel wants to do....when Israel sees fit and for as long as israel sees fit.

I don't know if Israel would like to totally annihalate the Palestinians. I would hope not. Both are semitic peoples and their common and ancient ancestry stems from the land they fight over.

There were Jews in the ''land flowing with milk and honey,'' long before the Biblical tales had them settling the land and Abraham is said to have set out from Ur in the Chaldees.......nowhere near where Jerusalem is.

It's human rights which are important and not who has won or lost a war. People should never have been displaced from their home land, so many years ago. It was their home for generations.......a refugee camp is not.

[Long Duck Dong]

I take it that to come to your final conclusion, you had to consult someone's profile and then go through every single post....posts upon threads..where another name, was also posted. If there is another way of finding posts, I am unaware of it, so please do not think me stupid, or in any manner, ignorant, if I do not know of such a search area.


actually I didn't go back and read anything...... cos I am not interested in reading all of your ranting...... I made a single remark about adam, and you are the one that has turned it into your own crusade, including pm'ing me seeking answers..... but as you say, you do not need to prove proof for your opinion.....

and again, I am not interested in the meaning of jihad and martyr.... that was between tenni and DD.....

all I am interested in, is the proof that what people are posting, is propaganda from the israelis ( your opinion )..... as you feel that even the info about other aid shipments, is not true.... yet aid agencies can provide numbers and fiqures......
if you can not provide proof, yet others can, then the facts outweight the opinion and make your opinion valueless.... hence I am asking you to add weight to your opinion and prove that your assumptions are more than wild unfounded accusations that other places and people are easily disproving

[Canticle]

''actually I didn't go back and read anything......''

Then why did you make the comment?

''cos I am not interested in reading all of your ranting......''

I don't rant. I am awfully sorry, if you don't like the way I post, but that is my style and I do not intend altering this. If I was to do so, I would not be expressing me and my thoughts, beliefs and opinions.

''I made a single remark about adam, and you are the one that has turned it into your own crusade,''

You made a particular statement and you cannot justify this, for there is nothing to justify. You stated a certain person had been telling the truth and had been vindicated. When a person makes such a statement, it is usually because they know what they are talking about. In this area....you do not.

''including pm'ing me seeking answers.....''

I pmd you, so I could ask you the question in private and therefore not clutter Fran's thread, with an off topic subject. You did not reply. but instead, answered in public.

''but as you say, you do not need to prove proof for your opinion.....''

Correct, I do not have to provide proo,f for the opinions I hold.

''and again, I am not interested in the meaning of jihad and martyr.... that was between tenni and DD.....''

As this is a public forum, everyone is free to comment upon a post....voice an opinion....provide a link...phot...whatever.

I am surprised that other interpretations for the word ''jihad,'' do not interest you, as surely the more understanding we have, of what things can mean, when applied in different areas, is very important. With the getting of understnding.....we achieve a little more wisdom.

''all I am interested in, is the proof that what people are posting, is propaganda from the israelis ( your opinion ).....''

I have watched the same videos as others. to me the Israeli video releases seem very professionally put together and very false. That is my opinion. It does not require me to provide proof.

''as you feel that even the info about other aid shipments, is not true.... yet aid agencies can provide numbers and fiqures......''

Not so. I do not believe that I have said, that I disbelieve that some aid ships may carry arms. Obviously, this is going to happen, but it does not justify the Israeli's blockading Gaza for three years and bombing it to pieces with heavy artillery and missiles.

Perhaps you have misread, or misunderstood what I typed. I write in plain English, so I don't see how this is possible.

''if you can not provide proof, yet others can, then the facts outweight the opinion and make your opinion valueless....''

I saw no need to go hunting for video footage, as so many people had already done the same thing. I am not a person who spends my every waking minute, looking for things on YouTube.

Consider my opinion valuless, if you so wish. I seem to be unvalued, by quite a few people, who should have condidered me of value, so the opinion of someone I don't know, on the other side of the world, isn't going to make much difference.

''hence I am asking you to add weight to your opinion and prove that your assumptions are more than wild unfounded accusations that other places and people are easily disproving''

Please list what I have stated, that is either a wild accusation or an assumption and please list the names of those who have been disproving these things.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not sure, how I am not conveying myself clear enuf for somebody as intelligent as you....

I do not have to justify or clarify any stance..... the same approach you use, but apparently I am not allowed to......

as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....

I was clearly referring to remarks about how the videos were propaganda... YET aid agencies and news sites have proven that aid shipments are going thru ashdod port to gaza.... its not propaganda, its bloody fact.......
israel is not denying the boarding of ships, they are actually showing they did, thats not propaganda, thats fact
etc etc etc...... propaganda is a twisting of facts...... israel is not denying anything at all.......
you call it propaganda, the rest of the world calls it truth...... cos it actually happened.....

now I am well aware that you do not provide any support for your opinions... that is why I tend to be amused at your requests for others to provide statements and proof of their opinions.....

a list of names ???

israel
israel
israel
israel
israel
and israel... plus most of the other posters in this thread.....
by way of sites and video links that can be viewed and reviewed by any person..... sites and videos that clearly show that israel is sticking to the same story, they boarded ships, shot and killed 9 people......

other groups are the ones saying that israel confiscated all the media footage ( so what are we seeing again ) that israel inflicted excessive and undue force in restraining protestors ( 17 hours then released, you can be held longer in a uk police station ) etc etc etc....

so like I have said... where is the propaganda, cos its not coming from israel.... they are not denying what happened.... nor are they saying things that do not match up with what we are saying either......

now I will say it again... you claim its propaganda, I can not find independant proof of propaganda...... so I asked you for any proof, in case I can not find it.... and you can not provide any....

hence your opinion that others are believing the israeli propaganda is unproven, yet your statements indicate that you are supporting a group of people with conflicting stories, AKA the protestors....

[Canticle]

''I am not sure, how I am not conveying myself clear enuf for somebody as intelligent as you....''

Obviously not!!!!

''I do not have to justify or clarify any stance..... the same approach you use, but apparently I am not allowed to......''

Ohhhhhh....clev..er!! I could say that you knew, that mentioning a certain person would upset me so much, that I sobbed my heart out, for hours....but I won't......because I am not like that and I am not going to flame you personally......for I have this feeling, that is maybe what you would like. Instead, I will conclude that because you don't know the history of my friendship with a certain person, you would not be aware, of how upset I would get.

''as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....''

There was no video...it was text and if you don't read the links other people post...what is the point of this whole exercise?

''I was clearly referring to remarks about how the videos were propaganda... YET aid agencies and news sites have proven that aid shipments are going thru ashdod port to gaza.... its not propaganda, its bloody fact.......
israel is not denying the boarding of ships, they are actually showing they did, thats not propaganda, thats fact
etc etc etc...... propaganda is a twisting of facts...... israel is not denying anything at all.......
you call it propaganda, the rest of the world calls it truth...... cos it actually happened.....''

Back and forth we go. Propaganda can be subtle. The twisting of words...or the way a video is edited....even down to the kind of voice over....can put something over, to those watching it, in a way that can work in favour of one side or another....and I don't care which faction may be involved.

''now I am well aware that you do not provide any support for your opinions... that is why I tend to be amused at your requests for others to provide statements and proof of their opinions.....''

You didn't have to make this something personal and introduce the name of a certain person and then declare them truthful and vindicated. My posts have not been like that. It was cruel and unnecessary..

''a list of names ???''

Yep!!

''israel
israel
israel
israel
israel
and israel''

That's a country....not the people on the thread.

''... plus most of the other posters in this thread.....''

So most of the people have posted video links that exonerate Israel.....really?

''by way of sites and video links that can be viewed and reviewed by any person..... sites and videos that clearly show that israel is sticking to the same story, they boarded ships, shot and killed 9 people......''

Well....they will stick to there version of the story!

''other groups are the ones saying that israel confiscated all the media footage ( so what are we seeing again ) that israel inflicted excessive and undue force in restraining protestors ( 17 hours then released, you can be held longer in a uk police station ) etc etc etc....''

I am sure some force, probably was over the top..........dead bodies tell that story.

''so like I have said... where is the propaganda, cos its not coming from israel.... they are not denying what happened.... nor are they saying things that do not match up with what we are saying either......''

Propaganda does not have to be a denial, of an event happening. It is how that propaganda interprets, what happened.....it's version of events.

''now I will say it again... you claim its propaganda, I can not find independant proof of propaganda...... so I asked you for any proof, in case I can not find it.... and you can not provide any....''

Well....that one video, may not have looked like propaganda to you,,,,but it did to me.

''hence your opinion that others are believing the israeli propaganda is unproven, yet your statements indicate that you are supporting a group of people with conflicting stories, AKA the protestors....''

That makes absolutely no sense.

[Long Duck Dong]

the vid you watched but is not a video according to you (http://lucianne.com/article/?pageid=real_story_of_the_gaza_convoy)

the bloody video is in english, plus text, the person spoke in english....and clearly said they wanted to be a martyr twice

step one, turn the sound on your computer....
step two, turn brain on
step three, stop ranting
step four, watch the non existent video that you claim is propaganda, not a video and only text
step 5 explain how you watched a video, listened to a video, argued the meaning of the words in the video.... yet now claim there is no video only text......

DD, myself and tenni and you and I believe a few others all read the text, heard the remarks by the person and understood it was said in english, it had subtitles in english and its a bloody video

I posted the link to the video, you viewed the video, you argued the meanings of jihad and martyr with me, and now you say there was no video ????? only text ????..

as for you and adam and your history ??? don't care, not interested, nothing to do with me, can not give a shit, do not want to hear about it, never mentioned your relationship with adam, have no interest in your personal life etc etc.... take your pick....

I made one statement about adam, nothing about you or your personal life..... you are the one with the issue over that statement and you need to get over it..... your relationship and personal life is none of my business and nor do I want to know about it at all.......

now there is a reason why israel will stick to their story about shooting 9 protestors..... and that reason would be cos they shot nine protestors..... they are not denying it at all..... they have never denied it..... what israel has said, is consistent with the videos they released and what protestors have said...
the israelis boarded the ship, were attacked and they opened fired on the protestors.......

now some force was over the top.... yes.... including throwing a person over the side of the deck of a boat, a action that could kill a person..... done by the protestors... that would be a active act of intentional and hostile resistance.....and in neutral country, a act of attempted murder.... add to the fact that the protestors were waiting for the israelis to board the boat ( the protestors own videos ).. you have a case for premeditated intent......

the overwhelming odds were in the favour of the protestors.... 700 to 45..... how many of the protestors were not offering resistance, may never been known..... by anybody......

but again, the israelis have not denied anything, videos from both sides support israels side of things and prove that the aid mission was not just a aid mission, as aid workers and missionaries are generally pacifists, they are there to aid and assist people, not try and kill people......

[Long Duck Dong]

I read an interesting analysis of the situation in the middle east and the various roles of countries within that territory. A lot of the following are quotes from his analysis. I have not bothered to put quote marks in though.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/825870--siddiqui-new-middle-east-hinges-on-turkey?bn=1


Three new regional players – Turkey, Iran and the oil- and gas-rich states of the Persian Gulf are the new key players. Iran and Turkey are not arab states and that plays a significant role according to the reporter analysist states.


One aspect that posters are not discussing with much detail is the role of Turkey. Turkey has and still is an ally of Israel. Israel killed Turkish citizens with this blockade. Turkey has the second largest military among NATO nations. The only NATO nation with a larger military is the USA. Turkey is a democracy. Turkey's economy has bounced back quicker than some other countries. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has identified Turkey as among the rising powers the U.S. wants to do business with.

The PM of Turkey presently sits on the UN Security Council and has been acting independently of its allies , the USA and Israel. Along with Brazil Turkey came up with a compromise*over the Iranian nuclear dilemma, only to be rejected by Washington, which opted for a fourth round of economic sanctions.

Turkey's PM , Erdogan, has stated “Peace and stability will not come to the region as long as the blockade of Gaza persists,” a blockade that Israel has just agreed to ease under international pressure. He has also tried to play the mediator between Israel and Syria; Israel and Hamas; Georgia and Russia; Iraq and Syria; Americans and the Iraqi insurgents; Lebanon and Syria, and the various factions within Lebanon; and the warring factions in Somalia as well as Yemen.

The domestic battle in Turkey is not between secularists and Islamists, as portrayed, but between democrats and autocrats.

"The birth of the new Turkey has been welcomed by Arabs. “Turkey has become an asset to the whole region and that constitutes a stabilizing factor in the Arab world,” Abdullah Khaliq Abdullah, professor of political science at the Emirates University, Dubai, told me. “Turkey is welcome in all Arab capitals, whereas Iran is in two or three.”

Israel can not afford to lose Turkey as an ally. Turkey may succeed in breaking this blockade of Gaza. It seems that Turkey is not about to abandon Gaza.

turkey is a country that I am watching, for the reasons you post.... they are making huge headway in the endeavour for peace...and yes, I firmly believe that they could do it.....

I am watching to see what turkey has up its sleeve with israel..... as I do have the gut feeling that turkey wants to see the blockade removed, but quietly, wants to see the fighting stopped too between israel and gaza.....

I may be wrong but it appears that turkey is not a yes man type country when it comes to dealing with the UN and the usa..... they are content to play the peace maker, but they also intend to make their neighboring countries, a group that has a stronger and more united voice in the world.... and they may just do it without using trade restrictions or military strength......

time will tell

[Canticle]

I'll come back to your post, when i have more time, LDD. When did I say that the item was not a video?????????????

[Long Duck Dong]

I'll come back to your post, when i have more time, LDD. When did I say that the item was not a video?????????????

post 734

you quoted what I had said
''as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....''

and then you said
There was no video...it was text and if you don't read the links other people post...what is the point of this whole exercise?

now before you say that you were talking about the link you posted...... ( which would then clearly show that not only did you ignore what I was clearly talking about.... but that you replied and referred to something that I clearly was not talking about..... which means
A) your ability to read and comprehend things is seriously in need of work
B) your ability to convey your stance in a clear and concise form, is in need of work
C) you are out of your depth when it comes to understanding what people are and are not saying..... as you are constantly adding in your own spin and walls of text to things that people are not saying or talking about

I will remind you again, dictionaries give definations of words, NOT context of what a person is saying......

I was not debating the context or meaning of the words as the guy said them, as there is no way to be sure what he was refering to, beyond personal opinion..... and the moment you imply he is saying something other than what he meant.... you are making propaganda statements as you are putting your own interpretation on their words......

[Long Duck Dong]

now canticle..... humour me......

using your posted links about jihad and martyr
If I am to use the defination ( according to your links ) for martyr ( martyr refering to the greek word for a witness in a court case
canticles defination of martyr (http://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructions/definitions/martyr.html)

the gentleman sitting in the chair at 32-40 seconds into the video, is talking about being a martyr
he is sitting there saying I wanted to be a witness in a court case, I was not so lucky, now god willing, I will be a witness in a court case

ahhh yes..... people that were martyrs in the name of their cause.... are not witnesses in a court case.... they are dead.....

so we have 9 witnesses in a court case / martyrs.....

according to the definitions you posted..... jihad means struggle, in one of 3 areas,
a visible enemy
ones own failings
spiritual confusion

yet I failed to see the guy refer to a struggle to be a witness in a court case ( a jihad to be a martyr )

no... he was clearly referring to his desire to be a witness in a court case......

now.... please show me, how that statement fits him being on a aid ship going to the gaza strip....... cos it makes no bloody sense to me....


but if I research the word martyr.... I get something else

mar&#183;tyr
(m&#228;rtr) [Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Late Greek martur, from Greek martus, martur-, witness.]
n.
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.
a. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
b. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.
tr.v. mar&#183;tyred, mar&#183;tyr&#183;ing, mar&#183;tyrs
1. To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to religious beliefs.
2. To inflict great pain on; torment.

martyr [ˈmɑːtə]
n
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a person who suffers death rather than renounce his religious beliefs
2. a person who suffers greatly or dies for a cause, belief, etc.
3. a person who suffers from poor health, misfortune, etc. he's a martyr to rheumatism
4. Facetious or derogatory a person who feigns suffering to gain sympathy, help, etc.
vb also 'martyr"ize, 'martyr"ise (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to kill as a martyr
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to make a martyr of
[Old English martir, from Church Latin martyr, from Late Greek martur-, martus witness]
martyrization , martyrisation n


now if we apply 2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

the guy is saying, I want to suffer or make a sacrifice ( of what, is debatable ) for my cause / belief / principle...

that makes a dammed sight more sense if you compare that sentence, to what happened on the ship.......

[Canticle]

Rnough LDD.....you waffle....I never thought I would put someone on ignore, but you are the most.......well I really have not got the strength to find the words.

[Long Duck Dong]

canticle, I address your points, your links.... without a life history........ point out the areas, you need to address to clear up your stance..... so you call it waffle and put me on ignore ????

I take it to mean that no, you will not clear up the confusion over your own opinion ......... and yes, you will run away ....

btw a simple no and yes will suffice.....

[coyotedude]

The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.


Er, no, the Palestinians weren't offered everything they wanted. What about the final status of Jerusalem? What about guarantees for water rights? What about the right of return? What about Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

Mind you, Oslo was not necessarily a bad deal by any means, and the Palestinian leadership completely blew it. But to say that Oslo gave them everything they wanted is at best an oversimplification. Both Israelis and Palestinians would have to compromise on deeply held beliefs and assumptions in order to make peace a reality.

I might also point out that Palestinians weren't the only ones who had trouble accepting Oslo. Yitzhak Rabin was not killed by a Palestinian or any other Arab, after all. Both sides have their fanatics who are willing to raise hell to sink any peace accord.

[darkeyes]

People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.


Pasa

So Israel's case has lost its validity then.. wow..what an admission....

I don't actually agree with the statement that anyone's case has lost validity because of how they use violence.. they may be going arse over tit to achieve their ends but the case for a Palestinian state remains stronger than ever.. and funnily enough.. Israel's case is no more invalidated by their viscious use of the military and all its hardware against civilians.. the strengths.. and weaknesses of a case remain.. but the stupidity of violence complicates things and makes it so much harder to settle the issues..

[Hephaestion]

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

yeah that matches what I understand.....
confusing vid (http://lucianne.com/article/?pageid=real_story_of_the_gaza_convoy)

now in the video, up to the 40 second point....... a man refers to wanting to be a martyr...... and we have been told by canticle, we need to think about the definition of martyr and jihad as it may not mean what we think

however in the video.... the guy gives no indication of his stance, beyond a neutral stance... and nothing to give context to his words

since canticle has stated its israel propaganada and we misunderstand what the guy is saying plus canticle has not clarified what she is saying in regards to that....
nobody has any idea what canticle is talking about........

so i broach the issue after canticle refers to me on a few occasions not addressing the issue and canticle puts me on ignore when i finally do, after me repeatedly stating that it was between tenni and DD, not me.... and I can not say what the guy meant with his reference to be a martyr

so if it makes more sense to you, hep, you are a better man than me......

[mariersa]

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

[Long Duck Dong]

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

the ones on the left in the nice dresses and wigs are the males, the gorgeous looking ones on the right. that are nude, are the gay males.... and the 3 that look about 40ish with hard faces and red hands, doing the dishes, are the females :tong:

[darkeyes]

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

Knew ther wos a reason wy me wos a tart an lost me virginity so young... no tamata gettin ther dirty mitts on me...:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

...me an all Heph..an the sad reelly screwy thing is ther names will b used by unscrupulous shitbags 2 recruit even more.... such is the lot of those who create martyrs... on wicheva side...:(

[hardnbubbly]

So according to you if an American blows himself up somewhere we should also condemn all Americans and call them barbarians and just revoke all their rights. WTF?

I guess you really have no clue what the Palestinian narrative is. You are just restating what the Israeli one is. You certainly can't pretend that Israel was innocent and the victim of the peace process. Sure there were security issues that Palestinians had to deal with, and sure they weren't perfect. But this victim syndrom is honestly just pathetic. Own up to the actions. Be brave enough to criticize your own when it necessary. Israelis themselves do it. Jews themselves do it. Yes not all Jewish people agree with what the state of Israel is doing and they do not feel it represents them.



The PLO renounced violence? Really? Was this before, or after the rocket attacks after the Oslo accords? The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.

And then they decided to lynch two IDF members. And then they decided to send in a wave of suicide bombers. No. The PLO, nor the PLA, nor the Fata, nor the Hamas has ever been peaceful.

Yes, I've heard the Palestinian narrative. And before 1967, they had a case. Since 1967, they've become extremists. Extremists don't have a case. People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.

Vowing to eliminate the state of Israel is the same as vowing to eliminate the Jews. Ordinarily I'd say we were splitting hairs, but here I can't just chalk it up to that In fact, Not only Hamas, but Al Qaeda leader Al Zwahari stated on several occasions that Jihad against the Jews would not be limited to the region of "Palestine" (his word) but would be affected across the Globe. He has said, at least once, that no Jewish child anywhere is safe.

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

...me an all Heph..an the sad reelly screwy thing is ther names will b used by unscrupulous shitbags 2 recruit even more.... such is the lot of those who create martyrs... on wicheva side...:(

Now that is something I can agree wholeheartedly with Fran. Snogs you and hands you a glass of cognac

[Hephaestion]

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

Wow! Yours must be the deluxe version of Islam. UK muslims are only promised 17 (why 17?).

.

[darkeyes]

Wow! Yours must be the deluxe version of Islam. UK muslims are only promised 17 (why 17?).

.Not sure ther r 17 virgins in the UK Heph..reckon that mus b it....:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

bugger the virgins, too unexperienced and I am too old to teach them anything...... now if there was a open bar tab that never needs paying..... mmmmmmmm