Gaza Aid Convoy

[Pasadenacpl2]

I have made no statements that are anti-arab. I have made two statements that say I'd be happy to see Iran go away. They are an enemy of my nation, an enemy of Israel, and an enemy of peace not only in their region, but in the world. Iran supplies not only Hammas, but also Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Add to that their race to get nuclear weapons and yes, I want them gone.

I have no high ideals when it comes to dealing in world politics. Some states are enemies to peace. Some nations are enemies of mine. It's not racist to root for my team, nor to hope for the enemy to be defeated.

Iran is an enemy. I hope for their destruction as a nation, because their existence is dangerous to my own. That's not racist, it's honest and pragmatic. Take the exact same traits and give them to any other nation, and I'd feel the same way.

You don't like it. That's fine. You support terrorists (Hamas) so I'm not surprised we don't see eye to eye. But, don't think you get to support terrorists who have AS THEIR STATED GOAL the genocide of the Jews and not get called a racist.

Anyone who supports Hamas is supporting genocide (in intent, they don't have the capability to do it). You support Hamas, I call you a racist. It's pretty simple. If you aid Hamas, you are aiding terrorists and are a racist. Those are not negotiable, and you can't ride both sides of the fence. Hamas is an organization that bankrolls suicide bombers, shooting rockets into cities, blowing up discotheques, blowing up nurseries, and various other terrorist activities. They hide their 'soldiers' behind civilians, using them as shields. There is no honor, and no moral equivalency. Israel isn't perfect, but they look like St. Peter compared to Hamas.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687

Pasa

[Canticle]

do you have any idea about weaponry and armaments ????

lil hint, you can hide a gun and bullets in a wheelchair frame.... fuel and sugar and powered soap can make...... etc etc....

there is a reason why israel wanted to check the shipments, they were not looking for weapons of mass destruction.... they were looking for dismantled armaments and objects used to assemble weapons.....

this is the difference between a arm chair web surfing history buff and a person with knowledge and experience in the areas of weaponry and armaments... one of us actually understands what the hell israel was up to.... the other is quoting history and have no idea what the hell is actually going on at ground level...


You were a soldier. You have told us that on more than one occasion. Weere you an arms expert? Did you see any action, in combat...etc.

Now you seem to know exactly what israel was/is looking for. Wow, the way to do that is to storm a ship, with commandos, fully armed and being dramatically dropped, via ropes (I am sure that they were more than ropes), it really is the way.

History and what was done 62 years ago, is the reason things are like they are right now.

And pleeeeeeaaaasssseee....credit me for some intellect (which, i have in abundance), i am noy an armchair Googler. Perish the thought.

[TwylaTwobits]

Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687

Pasa

Interesting, Pasa. Love the quote calling the nation of Israel a "Zionist Project" Did you see this link on the same page?

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=155414

Apparently Iran's president is once again denying there was ever a holocaust, that it was used as a false pretext to create Israel.

[Long Duck Dong]

You were a soldier. You have told us that on more than one occasion. Weere you an arms expert? Did you see any action, in combat...etc.

Now you seem to know exactly what israel was/is looking for. Wow, the way to do that is to storm a ship, with commandos, fully armed and being dramatically dropped, via ropes (I am sure that they were more than ropes), it really is the way.

History and what was done 62 years ago, is the reason things are like they are right now.

And pleeeeeeaaaasssseee....credit me for some intellect (which, i have in abundance), i am noy an armchair Googler. Perish the thought.


yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal

you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn
why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....
now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances

israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....

its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......

btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship, so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....

btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... not a armchair googler..... the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....

[darkeyes]

When 3/4 of your posts consist of "well said" and the rest are Anti-semetic claptrap, you become less and less relevant. And, no, I am not interested in your word games. If you wish me to simply call you a racist jew hater, I can do that too.
But, your rhetoric goes beyond simply discussing world events. You use similar phraseology and tone to those who were trying to drive anti Jew fears in the 30s.

If I ever read you decrying racism again, I wil call you out as a hypocrite.

Pasa

Far be it for me to question your good judgement but I haven't seen much racist feeling emanating from Canticle.. a great deal of criticsm of the Israeli state and its apparatus, and support for Palestinian arabs.. but racist feeling toward Israelis or Jews? Modern day arabs remain much more semite than the vast majority of Jewish people, remember that....if I had seen or believed that she was anti semetic or anti Jewish then I would have been much more critical and condemnatory than you will ever be.. you still confuse distaste for the state with distaste for its people..

[Canticle]

''I have made no statements that are anti-arab.''

I'll have to go through the thread and check.

''I have made two statements that say I'd be happy to see Iran go away. They are an enemy of my nation, an enemy of Israel, and an enemy of peace not only in their region, but in the world. Iran supplies not only Hammas, but also Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Add to that their race to get nuclear weapons and yes, I want them gone.''

Do you remember when the Russians were in Afghanistan fighting a futile war, after they were asked for help, by the Afghanistan Government of the time. Osam bin Laden, was one of the many Muslims fighting with the Mujad Hadin (or at least helping to finance it, being a wealthy Saudi), and then the government, of your country (along with a few others, I am sure), helped arm those bloodthirsty bastards.

If they captured a Russian soldier, they very often, wouldn't kill him....but skin him, from the waist up......nice death...eh what!!!!!! Those Mujad Hadin won that war, after the Russians finally pulled out, realising that they were fighting for nothing. Twenty years later, those Western armed ''freedom fighters'' become the enemy and your country and mine invaded Afghanistan.

No one will win. Afghanistan has never been conquered.....not by the west. I get sick of hearing of more and more soldiers dying. We had a funeral, with full military honours, last week, at one of my local churches, for a lad my sons were at school with. The west is responsible for this whole fucked up situation......from 1948 onwards....in different parts of the Middle East and the rest of the world.....Well. we could go on forever.

Anyone who doesn't agree with ''the American way,'' seems to be considered an enemy. The USA have got over the fear of Communism and all the hysteria of the 1950s and the cold war and believing that there was a red under every bed....or have they. Now the new enemy is Islam...and of course the friend has always been Israel...and for many reasons.

So, Iran supplies Al Quaeda and Hamas with arms......don't forget the west armed the Mujad Hadin. The West sells arms to other countries.....Iraq was one...when Saddam Hussein was considered not so bad and Iran, too. In fact, when Iraq and Iran were at war, so many years ago, they were fighting one another, with arms supplied by the same people!

''I have no high ideals when it comes to dealing in world politics. Some states are enemies to peace. Some nations are enemies of mine. It's not racist to root for my team, nor to hope for the enemy to be defeated.''

You believe some states are an enemy to world peace. Some people would say, that the USA has become so powerful, it is a threat to world peace. You actually think of Iran, as your own personal enemy....Wow....that is taking nationalism, to a slightly over the top stage...in my eyes. To refer to, supporting your country, when it is at war as ''rooting for my team,'' is a blase thing to say. No one wins in war. Just thousands of innocent people, suffer and die and become displaced.

''Iran is an enemy. I hope for their destruction as a nation, because their existence is dangerous to my own. That's not racist, it's honest and pragmatic. Take the exact same traits and give them to any other nation, and I'd feel the same way.''

It is a terrible thing to say, because in that destruction, thousands would die. Innocent people. And then the victors would bankrupt themselves rebuilding the country.

They are the enemy, because you have been taught that they are the enemy. I think many western countries want the situation in the Middle East, to stay the way it is. That, like the war for oil, there is a more sinister motive. An unsettled Middle East is a useful cover for other things, happening in the world.

''You don't like it. That's fine. You support terrorists (Hamas) so I'm not surprised we don't see eye to eye. But, don't think you get to support terrorists who have AS THEIR STATED GOAL the genocide of the Jews and not get called a racist.''

I don't support terrorists, so don't try to put words into my mouth. I support human rights and the rights of a people displaced from their homelands, so many years ago, so that an artificial state could be created. The west caused the problems in Afghanistan and contributed to the problems with Iraq and certainly with it's attitude towards Iran. I am no lover of that regime, but I know that any change has to come from within, not from another gung ho war. Iraq is a mess and so is Afghanistan.

Don't call me a terrorist lover, or a racist, or anti-semitic, because I am not. I could say that you, hoping Iran, a country with an ancient civilsation, be destroyed, is racist, because such destruction would lead to the mass death of thousands of innocent men, women and children......or do you think that every Iranian is a terrorist???????

''Anyone who supports Hamas is supporting genocide (in intent, they don't have the capability to do it).''

Rubbish and a lie...I do not support Hamas

''You support Hamas, I call you a racist. It's pretty simple. If you aid Hamas, you are aiding terrorists and are a racist.''

You are one insulting person. You should be ashamed.

''Those are not negotiable, and you can't ride both sides of the fence.''

Thankfully, I do not need the local Pastor, government propaganda and biased reporting, to make me decide what I think or believe. I believe in innocent people being treated like human beings and not as mocked in that horrendous song, that the video link, earlier, led to.

''Hamas is an organization that bankrolls suicide bombers, shooting rockets into cities, blowing up discotheques, blowing up nurseries, and various other terrorist activities. They hide their 'soldiers' behind civilians, using them as shields. There is no honor, and no moral equivalency.''

Yes, the terrorist forces, as you call them, are evil......but to many of the people....they are the only ones looking out for them. You are obviously of the opinion that the creation of the state of Israel and the displacement of so many Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, was an Ok thing to do. You come over, to me, as someone who doesn't think that those people matter. After all...earlier, you even tried to dismiss the subject of their displacement, by saying that they were nomads. Great humanitarian there....not.

''Israel isn't perfect, but they look like St. Peter compared to Hamas.''

No, Israel is not perfect. It is guilty of racism, itself. It doesn't want peace, anymore than any terrorists do. Israeli dissidents are treated severely. they build a wall across what is a holy land for three separate religions and they think thaat they can do exactly as they like.....purely because of a belief in some God given right.

And St Peter was far from perfect. He was actually rather unreliable and also a mysoginist. I guess what you know about him depends on which gospels you read. I wouldn't put much store, personally, on the reported words of Jesus, asking Peter to lead his sheep, when the very early church was probably run by James, the brother of Jesus, with Mary Magdalene, playing a fairly important part.

Don't call me a lover of terrorists.......I lived through three decades of the IRA bombing Northern Ireland and main land Britain, blowing up a government Minister, Airey Neve and mudering an elderly member of the royal family, by cowardly blowing his holiday boat up, killing him, his grandson, his daughter's mother-in-law and a local boy who helped keep the boat clean, in his holidays. That man was Earl Mountbatten of Burma. And all the time American Irish citizens, were sending money to Ireland to help the republican cause.

Don't call me a racist...I am not one.

Don't call me anti-semitic.....for I am not.

.

[Canticle]

''yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal''

Bully for you LDD

''you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn''

helps though...eh what!!

''why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....''

Well maybe they shouldn't have bulldozed so many Palestinian homes, so that the mmigrant Israelis, could build their homes on palestinian land. perhaps they would like to rebuild them....supplying their own workmen and cement etc.

Oh, and yeah, I did know.:rolleyes:

''now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances''

Oh, Yes.....we know how primitive, it was thought, that the North Vietnamese were, but they had underground hospitals and supply tunnels, which went right under american positions and they were highly trained, not primitive in any way. They knew their land, just as those rebels in Afghanistan, do. They could stand the climate and they believed in what they were fighting for.

''israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....''

Who has reported this.......those on board the ships, the Israeli propaganda merchants or Israeli friendly news media. Or have you been looking at other forms of information.

''its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......''

Oh, pleeeeaaassseee................

''btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship,''

Are you trying to add a little levity to this post, or are you being patronising?

''so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....''

Yes....the more dramatic...the better......to be expected.

''btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... ''

You think I get my history on line....Ye gads....what an insult.....and laughable.

''not a armchair googler.....''

Oh, goodie!!!

''the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....''

Don't you think I read newspapers? Don't you think I watch the news....or any relavent programmes...and of course.....any other sources of info?

Laughable.

[darkeyes]

"I have no enemies. People may perceive me as theirs, but I consider none as mine. My nation may tell me that I have an enemy, but that enemy is not my enemy. My hand is offered to all and if they reject it, then still am I their friend. My friends may strike me down, yet friends they remain."

Just the musing of a young girl back n 1994 written in a school jotter back in 1994 after she had been battered hell out of by another girl in the Meadows..

[Canticle]

"I have no enemies. People may perceive me as theirs, but I consider none as mine. My nation may tell me that I have an enemy, but that enemy is not my enemy. My hand is offered to all and if they reject it, then still am I their friend. My friends may strike me down, yet friends they remain."

Just the musing of a young girl back n 1994 written in a school jotter back in 1994 after she had been battered hell out of by another girl in the Meadows..

And beautifully written too, Fran

[Canticle]

Far be it for me to question your good judgement but I haven't seen much racist feeling emanating from Canticle.. a great deal of criticsm of the Israeli state and its apparatus, and support for Palestinian arabs.. but racist feeling toward Israelis or Jews? Modern day arabs remain much more semite than the vast majority of Jewish people, remember that....if I had seen or believed that she was anti semetic or anti Jewish then I would have been much more critical and condemnatory than you will ever be.. you still confuse distaste for the state with distaste for its people..

Thank you Fran......Hugs ya like a sister...None of the mother mullarkey (sp)...I'm far too young to be a mothery sort...anyway...i've got one daughter....she's enough on her own. :)

[Hephaestion]

1) Soldier shoot that thing. It is not a person. It is your enemy.
Sir! Yes Sir!

2) One of the WW1 poets wrote about the a French infantryman who had doubts and came face to face with a German soldier. The two human beings stood there unable to move until the French soldier composed himself quicker. The last line form memory is a sad realisation "I can kill Mamon I can kill"

3) One of our security guards authorized unresonable searches and identity checks which I challenged. IN the face to face argument with this ex-soldier I asked whether if orderd to jump off a cliff, the order would be carried out. The answere was an affirmative YES! SO I pointed out that that was the difference between a machine and a thinking person (incidentally, the management sided with me).

LDD - it is not guns that kill. It is mindless W*****s with guns.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

''yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal''

Bully for you LDD

''you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn''

helps though...eh what!!

''why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....''

Well maybe they shouldn't have bulldozed so many Palestinian homes, so that the mmigrant Israelis, could build their homes on palestinian land. perhaps they would like to rebuild them....supplying their own workmen and cement etc.

Oh, and yeah, I did know.:rolleyes:

''now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances''

Oh, Yes.....we know how primitive, it was thought, that the North Vietnamese were, but they had underground hospitals and supply tunnels, which went right under american positions and they were highly trained, not primitive in any way. They knew their land, just as those rebels in Afghanistan, do. They could stand the climate and they believed in what they were fighting for.

''israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....''

Who has reported this.......those on board the ships, the Israeli propaganda merchants or Israeli friendly news media. Or have you been looking at other forms of information.

''its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......''

Oh, pleeeeaaassseee................

''btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship,''

Are you trying to add a little levity to this post, or are you being patronising?

''so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....''

Yes....the more dramatic...the better......to be expected.

''btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... ''

You think I get my history on line....Ye gads....what an insult.....and laughable.

''not a armchair googler.....''

Oh, goodie!!!

''the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....''

Don't you think I read newspapers? Don't you think I watch the news....or any relavent programmes...and of course.....any other sources of info?

Laughable.

ok.... to address your multi point wall of text .....

bully to me for having experience.....and knowledge of military actions...
that is why I am talking about the israeli boarding of the ship and the way it was conducted.... its something I happen to know about and understand a lot about......

nobody needs to be a trained expert in armaments to create explosives.... the average school kid is taught the basic knowledge in science class.... or do you not realise that making hokey pokey is a form of explosive class reaction of chemicals ?????

cement is not the only type of building supply that can be sent.... plastercrete is a non explosive base chemical that can be used instead and does the same bloody job.....

the VC were not highly trained, christ the vets that were there, can tell you that, I lived with a ex nam vet that drilled me in the ways of the vc and how basic knowledge can make anybody highly proficient in ways of combat and survival
the tunnelers in colditz were not highly trained cavers, they merely understood to make a tunnel you dig and board up the tunnels.... the vc are no different.....
and nor is the gaza strip.... hence the 300 odd tunnels that have been dug under the gaza strip

who reported the shots ???? both groups.... there are a number of reports of shots fired BEFORE the boarding.... and that has come from a number of sources.... besides how could the activists refuse to stop the bloody ships if they were not told to stop the ships.....
they were told, ordered and then shots were fired across the bow and the activists refused to stop sailing, as was their intention before they left on the trip and the activists stated that they intended to break the blockade.....


the more dramatic the better ????? yeah.... I quess they should have used a ladder instead.....
ranticle, grow a brain will you, if you have no landing pad on a ship, and the ship will not stop to be boarded, of course you will rappel to the deck.... that is the same way that search and rescue groups do it when they can not board a ship.....
bloody S&R guys being more dramatic, sighs.... what are they thinking ... sighs....
try the fact its the easiest way to board ships that can not be boarded by boat
( yes the sarcasm there is so thick, you could bottle it )

I never said you limit your knowledge gaining to google.... I was refering to the fact that you use multi forms of media for your info or lack of it.....
you are the one that misread and misinterpreted it

now, please before you create another 15 post run or a wall of text to rival the berlin wall, can you please check that when you pick holes in what i say... that you have some semblance of understanding of the way things work.....

so let me condense my post down
plastercrete can be used instead of cement..
S&R crews also board ships by rappeling, its not dramatic, its often the only way
anybody can create explosives, including school kids
any person can be dangerous, they do not need weapons
tunneling is as simple as digging a hole
and you really need to learn more about some things before you post about them

and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....

can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble

[Long Duck Dong]

1)

LDD - it is not guns that kill. It is mindless W*****s with guns.

.

oh heph baby, I love you.... so much.....

that single line sums up how I feel about guns and weapons, even tho I own guns and am experienced in their usage...

[Pasadenacpl2]

To answer Canticle's only really important response...Yes, I'm perfectly fine with the creation of Isreal. I don't use it as the automatic excuse for terrorists.

Israel is a nation. The region can either make nice with them or suffer tbe conequences for not doing so. Too bad Hamas and the PLA/PLO decided to make their stated goal the genocide of the Jewish people. They made a choice. They chose to live in war rather than in peace. And they chose to do so as terrorists.

Choices have consequences. Some choices have consequences fr others who weren't even around to make the choice. They should have been wiser. They weren't. Oh well, sucks to be their kids.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

oh heph baby, I love you.... so much.....

that single line sums up how I feel about guns and weapons, even tho I own guns and am experienced in their usage...

Heph is right Duckie I agree.. and since there are so many mindless w*****s, its good enough reason to to allow them anywhere near people..

[darkeyes]

and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....

can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble

This is somewhat contemptuous and a bit cheeky Duckie.. people argue as they are able, or believe works for them.. some are better than others at it, and am uncomfortable with the single line breakdown also, but its a stylistic thing with which she is apparently comfortable... you are not unknown yourself for lack of brevity, and great walls of text are commonplace in your own posts.. and there are times darling, when your own lack a certain clarity as indeed in your own way once or twice you have accepted... added to a fair amount of dribble..

So I suggest you get out of the glasshouse before you chuck your next stone..

[darkeyes]

To answer Canticle's only really important response...Yes, I'm perfectly fine with the creation of Isreal. I don't use it as the automatic excuse for terrorists.

Israel is a nation. The region can either make nice with them or suffer tbe conequences for not doing so. Too bad Hamas and the PLA/PLO decided to make their stated goal the genocide of the Jewish people. They made a choice. They chose to live in war rather than in peace. And they chose to do so as terrorists.

Choices have consequences. Some choices have consequences fr others who weren't even around to make the choice. They should have been wiser. They weren't. Oh well, sucks to be their kids.

Pasa

As I understand it, the aim of Hamas is not genocide of the Jewish people but the replacement of the state of Israel with a muslim state which I believe to be a legitimate if somewhat undesirable aim.. every bit as much as Israel being the Jewish state it is.. some people may read that as a threat of genocide but Im afraid I do not.. it is certainly less of a threat of genocide than your occasional call to Nuke the fuck out of Iran and anyone else you dont like if they don't behave theselves in accord with the wishes of the US and Israel...

Choices do have consequences.. and they always have consequences not just for those that make the choice. Maybe Israel, and the United States should remember that in the not too distant future..

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree fran, my posts can leave a lot to answer for.....

but I am not known as a person that will multi quote a persons post just so I can add childish dribble.....
I am no great communicator, but at least I am a lil more respectful of peoples questions

canticle asked questions of me, I answered them in post # 256 and well, canticles responses ( #259 ) to most of my replies... well..... hardly intelligent were they or needed

it indicates a person that lacks the intelligence to create a post of their own and express their thoughts ... instead they need to disect another persons posts and comment on every lil part and thats where the dribble comes into it.....as they lack anything intelligent to say for every quoted part

all I am asking if canticle needs to post dribble, please do it to others posts, as I perfer not to reread my own replies covered in dribble....

[hardnbubbly]

This has honestly become pointless. It feels like some are out there to "win" arguments and repeat propaganda rather than be genuinely concerned for either Israelis or Palestinians.

I guess to some whoever has the bigger guns prevails.

[darkeyes]

I agree fran, my posts can leave a lot to answer for.....

but I am not known as a person that will multi quote a persons post just so I can add childish dribble.....
I am no great communicator, but at least I am a lil more respectful of peoples questions

canticle asked questions of me, I answered them in post # 256 and well, canticles responses ( #259 ) to most of my replies... well..... hardly intelligent were they or needed

it indicates a person that lacks the intelligence to create a post of their own and express their thoughts ... instead they need to disect another persons posts and comment on every lil part and thats where the dribble comes into it.....as they lack anything intelligent to say for every quoted part

all I am asking if canticle needs to post dribble, please do it to others posts, as I perfer not to reread my own replies covered in dribble....

I agree in part Duckie.. like all of us she can be inarticulate at times but she has quite frequently argued quite passionately and articulately oin points she wishes to make.. and sometimes she does comment and reply when it is unnecessry and pointlessly.. I am at fault sometimes for that myself so have no room to talk.. but as I said we all debate in our own way.. there are more important issues at stake in this and on other debates than arguing and making an issue of another's debating style....

..some times when I've re-read my posts I am horrified not usually at content, although sometimes that too, but in composition and style whether they are contained in anothers post or merely referred to.. but it has to be done sadly.. I, my love, like you and Canticle, am but an imperfect instrument of the pen (or keyboard..pen sounds better..).

..and yet again Duckie.. this debate has taken on a personal edge with whcih I feel uncomfortable.. I blame no one in particular, and it may be that the subject matter makes that inevitable, although I do not believe so.. I just wish that we could forget the personal and just argue the merit of what is an incredibly important and tragic issue.. as Kate keeps telling me "Don't be stupid you daft bitch, you're living in cloud cuckoo land..." and my mum "Maybe sometimes, Frankie, you should remove your head from up your arse..":(

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree in part Duckie.. like all of us she can be inarticulate at times but she has quite frequently argued quite passionately and articulately oin points she wishes to make.. and sometimes she does comment and reply when it is unnecessry and pointlessly.. I am at fault sometimes for that myself so have no room to talk.. but as I said we all debate in our own way.. there are more important issues at stake in this and on other debates than arguing and making an issue of another's debating style....

..some times when I've re-read my posts I am horrified not usually at content, although sometimes that too, but in composition and style whether they are contained in anothers post or merely referred to.. but it has to be done sadly.. I, my love, like you and Canticle, am but an imperfect instrument of the pen (or keyboard..pen sounds better..).

..and yet again Duckie.. this debate has taken on a personal edge with whcih I feel uncomfortable.. I blame no one in particular, and it may be that the subject matter makes that inevitable, although I do not believe so.. I just wish that we could forget the personal and just argue the merit of what is an incredibly important and tragic issue.. as Kate keeps telling me "Don't be stupid you daft bitch, you're living in cloud cuckoo land..." and my mum "Maybe sometimes, Frankie, you should remove your head from up your arse..":(

the way something that was very real and very dangerous, was dismissed as trivial, is my issue with canticles posts

unlike most people, I speak from experience in some fields, and jumping out of helicopters, weapons, military combat etc, is one of them.....

its like you, fran, you speak from experience as a activist on the front line, you have been there, you know what is going thru peoples heads and how hard it can be on the mind and body, facing the riot squad

so when somebody says bully to me being in the military and how * dramatic * the israeli forces were by a armchair critic, its rather offensive, specially when that person doesn't have the experience in that type of situation or the activist experience....

getting out of a helicopter and into a hostile situation and facing hostile, armed people is not a walk in the park, most vets know to take a shit before getting on the copter cos it could end up in ya pants if you don't.... you are facing a unknown enemy that can be intent on ending your life and you are pretty much highly at risk until you can get on the deck of the boat....

as for the activists on the boat that were peaceful, non aggressive, well, they find themselves in a situation with gun fire and military forces coming on board and thats really gotta scare the shit outta most of them....
I reckon a lot of them signed on for a aid mission, not the mission from hell.....

thats why I am not arguing over israel and the palestines and gaza etc..... but sharing from real life experience, how it could have been avoided... and what would have happened on that boat that led to 9 deaths.... in the hope that it may help others understand a lil clearly that its not as easy as reading a book or a newspaper or watching tv and arguing history.....

knowledge is one thing, but experience is another..... reading the newspaper never caused me to near shit my pants....

[richarddennis]

Pasadenacpl2
Senior Member
Re: Gaza Aid Convoy
Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

There is little doubt Egypt will re-open the Gaza border. This blockading has been going on/off for decades and expect Egypt to open the Gaza border ASAP!


"Egyptian authorities said Monday that the Rafah border crossing to the Gaza Strip would remain open indefinitely, amid a storm of international criticism of Israel's blockade of the enclave."

[darkeyes]

the way something that was very real and very dangerous, was dismissed as trivial, is my issue with canticles posts

unlike most people, I speak from experience in some fields, and jumping out of helicopters, weapons, military combat etc, is one of them.....

its like you, fran, you speak from experience as a activist on the front line, you have been there, you know what is going thru peoples heads and how hard it can be on the mind and body, facing the riot squad

so when somebody says bully to me being in the military and how * dramatic * the israeli forces were by a armchair critic, its rather offensive, specially when that person doesn't have the experience in that type of situation or the activist experience....

getting out of a helicopter and into a hostile situation and facing hostile, armed people is not a walk in the park, most vets know to take a shit before getting on the copter cos it could end up in ya pants if you don't.... you are facing a unknown enemy that can be intent on ending your life and you are pretty much highly at risk until you can get on the deck of the boat....

as for the activists on the boat that were peaceful, non aggressive, well, they find themselves in a situation with gun fire and military forces coming on board and thats really gotta scare the shit outta most of them....
I reckon a lot of them signed on for a aid mission, not the mission from hell.....

thats why I am not arguing over israel and the palestines and gaza etc..... but sharing from real life experience, how it could have been avoided... and what would have happened on that boat that led to 9 deaths.... in the hope that it may help others understand a lil clearly that its not as easy as reading a book or a newspaper or watching tv and arguing history.....

knowledge is one thing, but experience is another..... reading the newspaper never caused me to near shit my pants....

When it comes to things military I am nothing other than an armchair critic except for looking up at a bloody great Land Rover or Lorry which could squidge me like a midgie... I am ignorant of most things military but it should not debar me from comment on its function.. the primary function is to be ready to kill and destroy at the behest of the Government and its commanders.. defence of the realm fantasy I leave to others for it as much to do with internal as external control when the need arises.. that I have the right to comment is undeniable.. whether some of the things I say should be saiid is debatable.. and so it is with us all about all sorts of things said by all kinds of people..

I am sure you are right that people did not sign up for the kind of voyage end they got.. but they must have at least been aware that just such an end was a possibility.. they may not have wanted it but they are not stupid people, however much you may think so, and as any good activist in pursuit of any cause knows, they knew things would not be easy and were prepared for the worst and the unpredictable.. that does not mean they were prepared to respond as you and others have claimed by being first to go on the attack.. it merely means what it says..

[darkeyes]

This has honestly become pointless. It feels like some are out there to "win" arguments and repeat propaganda rather than be genuinely concerned for either Israelis or Palestinians.

I guess to some whoever has the bigger guns prevails.

Pointless? Maybe in that there is little we can do to change things by our passions and our words.. but as expressions of how we feel and what we believe? That is not pointless whichever side we are on.. its not about winning or losing the argument.. its about not forgetting.. all too many would prefer just to forget it and ignore it and for it all to go away.. but some on both sides actively try and do something about it.. some do argue not out of any concern for the human cost.. but not most I think.. even the most bellicose on both sides..

On war memorials all over my country are the words "Lest We Forget". Words may be inadequate, but they do serve the purpose for which on this site, on this subject, they are used by me and I hope others.... :)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasadenacpl2
Senior Member
Re: Gaza Aid Convoy
Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

There is little doubt Egypt will re-open the Gaza border. This blockading has been going on/off for decades and expect Egypt to open the Gaza border ASAP!


"Egyptian authorities said Monday that the Rafah border crossing to the Gaza Strip would remain open indefinitely, amid a storm of international criticism of Israel's blockade of the enclave."

Yup. Open to people crossing. They specifically forbid aid supplies, however. Seems the Egyptians don't want Gaza having weapons either. And for good reason.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

oh heph baby, I love you.... so much.....

that single line sums up how I feel about guns and weapons, even tho I own guns and am experienced in their usage...

Your're welcome LDD. However, can a soldier resist from pulling the trigger because as a soldier he has been trained to follow orders without question.

At that point is where the political interface can do its worst damage. The faceless chain of command says that is a bad guy and the soldier follows orders beleiving that his politicians are faultless and well meaning.

Clearly the politicians and higher command got it wrong in the original flotilla to Gaza. Never, has Israel been more isolated that it is now. It has damaged its relationship with friends to the extent that even its best ally says this cannot continue.

So offers, suggestion, threats, of external involvement are stacking up Lets' hope that there is a peaceful and successful outcome on this matter.

.

[darkeyes]

Yup. Open to people crossing. They specifically forbid aid supplies, however. Seems the Egyptians don't want Gaza having weapons either. And for good reason.

Pasa

Ahhh wrong again Pasa..

http://www.france24.com/en/20100601-mubarak-orders-rafah-border-crossing-opened-gaza-strip-aid-egypt

Auntie and a number of international networks and agencies reported this days ago.. some items remain verboten such as cement and scaffolding..but its hardly a people only exericise.. just what "news" do you lot get over there?

[darkeyes]

Jus 2 letyas kno Fran is off tomoz on a trip wiv school till weekend.. will hav me lappie but its a bizzy schedule so mite not get in 2 keepyas in line till then at earliest..an then a course its weekend tartiness.. out Friday an Sat nites so ya mite havta entertain yasels prob on this an evry otha thread.. prob heard enuff a me cyber voice ne way.. give peeps a chance 2 tear lumps outa me knowin me is othawise engaged.. so play nice.. ;):)

[hardnbubbly]

You are right.. it's not pointless.. though at times frustrating.. and the frustration come feeling that democracy and human rights only a few people really believe in. Many pay lip service to it, but do not really value it.

The right to peaceful assembly, demonstrating, protesting, are all things that it seems lately have been equated with hooligan-ism or some negative connotation.

Anyway, I will continue to comment. Just need my occasional time-outs :)


Pointless? Maybe in that there is little we can do to change things by our passions and our words.. but as expressions of how we feel and what we believe? That is not pointless whichever side we are on.. its not about winning or losing the argument.. its about not forgetting.. all too many would prefer just to forget it and ignore it and for it all to go away.. but some on both sides actively try and do something about it.. some do argue not out of any concern for the human cost.. but not most I think.. even the most bellicose on both sides..

On war memorials all over my country are the words "Lest We Forget". Words may be inadequate, but they do serve the purpose for which on this site, on this subject, they are used by me and I hope others.... :)

[Canticle]

''ok.... to address your multi point wall of text .....''

MY wall of text!! Oh, do come on, LDD. I have read enough of the threads upon this forum, to understand that your own posts, can be some of the longest and in my book, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I express myself, my way. I don't go in for one sentence comments...very often, I do try NOT to insult anyone, for I am not a rude person, in my everyday life and I don't churn out any home spun wisdom. I just say what is in my head, heart and soul. I defend and I protect. I'd fight for rights, if the need was there and I wouldn't, necessarily, need to agree with those fighting for any particular human right, etc. That's me, honest as the day is long and no liar, or user of people. I'm not going to stop being me, or post in any other way and long may it remain so.

''bully to me for having experience.....and knowledge of military actions...
that is why I am talking about the israeli boarding of the ship and the way it was conducted.... its something I happen to know about and understand a lot about......''

I am sure, that in some thread, somewhere, sometime, I read that you were Scottish. If so, I am assuming you were born in the British Isles and were, maybe still are, a British citizen. If that is the case, then you should understand what is meant, when someone says ''bully for you.''

Perhaps, I had grown a little tired, last night and threw out a phrase, which expressed my exasperation. Believe it, or not, I do not like to repeat the same points, over and over again.

However, as I have found, when dealing with the emails from someone, who only ever read, what that person wanted to read, in a received email, that there comes a time, when repetition, repetition, repetition, is required.

Sometimes taking the prose apart, paragraph, by paragraph, sentence by sentence and even word by word. Not an enjoyable task, but sometimes, unfortunately, a very necessary one.

I have concluded, from reading your posts, that you do, indeed, know quite a lot, about very many things! However, any knowledge, does not automatically, make one right.

''nobody needs to be a trained expert in armaments to create explosives.... the average school kid is taught the basic knowledge in science class.... or do you not realise that making hokey pokey is a form of explosive class reaction of chemicals ?????''

Did anyone say that one has to be an expert? I can't recall posting, that I did. You're preaching to the converted, here. I know that no expert training is required.

''cement is not the only type of building supply that can be sent.... plastercrete is a non explosive base chemical that can be used instead and does the same bloody job.....''

So, you are saying that because cement, could be used in the making of explosives, only non explosive substances should be allowed into Gaza?

If that is so, then surely, Israel should also, be stripped bare of any cement supplies and be told to use other substances. Why the heck should the Palestinians, not be allowed, as a human right, the same materials their semitic cousins, use?????

Works both ways. The people should have the same rights as Israelis, in every sense of the word.

''the VC were not highly trained, christ the vets that were there, can tell you that, I lived with a ex nam vet that drilled me in the ways of the vc and how basic knowledge can make anybody highly proficient in ways of combat and survival
the tunnelers in colditz were not highly trained cavers, they merely understood to make a tunnel you dig and board up the tunnels.... the vc are no different.....
and nor is the gaza strip.... hence the 300 odd tunnels that have been dug under the gaza strip''

If the VietCong were not highly trained and well armed and knowledgeable about their land, above and below ground and also believed in what they were fighting for, how come the US of A and other forces, did not win the day.

Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, China, have rich cultures and civilisations, going back a few thousand years. They may not have had the tanks and the planes and many of the arms that the enemy was in possession of, but the VietCong did have a belief, in what they were fighting for and many wars are won with guerrilla, partisan, underground fighting.

I think that to make use of their skills, in the way that they did, was extremely sophisticated, not primitive, however basic, any equipment may have been.

Having watched so many films and documentaries, about escape tunnels, built by imprisoned allies, in WWII, I am always in awe, of the skills these prisoners of war, utilised and working together, not only dug, quite sophisticated tunnels, at times, but produced uniforms, civilian clothing, documents etc. People to admire.

I have looked at the tunnels found in Gaza. Fascinating! Just shows you what lengths, humans will go to, when they are fighting for something, which they believe in......no matter what that cause may be.

''who reported the shots ???? both groups.... there are a number of reports of shots fired BEFORE the boarding.... and that has come from a number of sources.... besides how could the activists refuse to stop the bloody ships if they were not told to stop the ships.....
they were told, ordered and then shots were fired across the bow and the activists refused to stop sailing, as was their intention before they left on the trip and the activists stated that they intended to break the blockade.....''

Thank you for this information. Most informative. Can I ask, which news media you obtained it from...out of interest.

Why should they refuse to stop the ships, if they were in international waters, where Israel has no jurisdiction, unless Israel has decided to extend it's borders, by declaring an exclusion zone.

I think it's fairly obvious that they intended to break the blockade.....to deliver, what the convoy insisted was humanitarian aid......not much point in going, if they were not prepared to break the blockade.

''the more dramatic the better ????? yeah.... I quess they should have used a ladder instead.....''

No, it would have been better, if Israel had left the boats alone.

''ranticle, grow a brain will you, if you have no landing pad on a ship, and the ship will not stop to be boarded, of course you will rappel to the deck.... that is the same way that search and rescue groups do it when they can not board a ship.....
bloody S&R guys being more dramatic, sighs.... what are they thinking ... sighs....
try the fact its the easiest way to board ships that can not be boarded by boat
( yes the sarcasm there is so thick, you could bottle it )''

Insults now! Tut Tut, LDD! My name is Canticle and never, in my life, have I been known to rant. Get rather wordy and answer certain emails in an annoyed manner, due my frustration with an individual.

I've even been know to put the fear of God (not literally), into a 20 year old son, who was totally bereft, of any sense, when it came to money and got into serious, debt at college. He thanks me now, because he knows that I love him dearly.......but rant...No, No.....I never rant.

Oh, I think the Israeli forces would have had every intent, to scare the shit out of the activists. They didn't expect resistance. Well, they should have known better. When people are scared, they will do anything to defend themselves, even if they are peaceful, by nature. It's human instinct. I still believe that what the Israelis did, was over the top and unnecessary.

Sarcasm?......Sorry, but it wasn't that noticeable.....Nice try though!

''I never said you limit your knowledge gaining to google.... I was refering to the fact that you use multi forms of media for your info or lack of it.....
you are the one that misread and misinterpreted it''

Please inform me which multimedia I am consulting. Please tell me what I have misread or misinterpreted. Again...not something I am known for doing

''now, please before you create another 15 post run or a wall of text to rival the berlin wall, can you please check that when you pick holes in what i say... that you have some semblance of understanding of the way things work.....''

Am I not allowed to post what I want? Is it not my human right? I asked you questions and you have answered....not satisfactorily....but you have answered.

''so let me condense my post down
plastercrete can be used instead of cement..
S&R crews also board ships by rappeling, its not dramatic, its often the only way
anybody can create explosives, including school kids
any person can be dangerous, they do not need weapons
tunneling is as simple as digging a hole''

You already mentioned those.

''and you really need to learn more about some things before you post about them''

I am upon this earth to learn and the learning process is an ongoing one. We never stop learning. Some of us have more open minds and do not believe everything we are spoon fed. Count me as one of those people.

''and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....''

Insults again.....my name is Canticle and I will post my way, not the way you wish me to.

''can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble''

And one thing more. I never write, or speak ''dribble.'' I understand many things and where I don't, I will ask questions. If I do not accept the answers as correct, or right.....that is my privilege. By the way, did you miss the sarcasm in some of my posts???

And guess what....I have a very good brain...a very good mind. In fact, someone once told me that I was the most intelligent person, they had ever met. I am far too modest, to say such a thing, but I do have a good brain and I am intelligent, highly intelligent. It seems to run in the family.

[Canticle]

To answer Canticle's only really important response...Yes, I'm perfectly fine with the creation of Isreal. I don't use it as the automatic excuse for terrorists.

Israel is a nation. The region can either make nice with them or suffer tbe conequences for not doing so. Too bad Hamas and the PLA/PLO decided to make their stated goal the genocide of the Jewish people. They made a choice. They chose to live in war rather than in peace. And they chose to do so as terrorists.

Choices have consequences. Some choices have consequences fr others who weren't even around to make the choice. They should have been wiser. They weren't. Oh well, sucks to be their kids.

Pasa

I don't think you are in a position to say who has posted important or not material.

Your above utterings are nasty and do not even begin to consider that the Christian and Muslim Palestinians, had a right to a homeland of their own, on land that their people had inhabited for generations.

An artificially created state, is always going to create problems and it does not matter what the religions, in any particular area, may be.

What choice did the Palestinians have, back in 1948, when they were ousted from their home villages and land and many forced into refugee camps, only to see the new State of Israel ''import,'' it's population.

Are you trying to tell me that Jews from around the world had more rights to the land than the Christian and Muslim population?

[Canticle]

This is somewhat contemptuous and a bit cheeky Duckie.. people argue as they are able, or believe works for them.. some are better than others at it, and am uncomfortable with the single line breakdown also, but its a stylistic thing with which she is apparently comfortable... you are not unknown yourself for lack of brevity, and great walls of text are commonplace in your own posts.. and there are times darling, when your own lack a certain clarity as indeed in your own way once or twice you have accepted... added to a fair amount of dribble..

So I suggest you get out of the glasshouse before you chuck your next stone..

I would suggest, Fran, that my use of the Queen's English (and used to the best of my ability...please note...I stick commas everywhere, for I am never sure, where to put them), expresses me.

I believe that sometimes...very often...people only read, what they want to read and so there comes a time, when, to make them read, you have to take their prose, bit by bit. An unfortunate thing...but in recent years, something, which I have found to be very necessary.

I do, at times, add a little humour to posts. I am a reserved person, but I am told that I have a dry humour.....so I must be getting something right!

One thing, which you will always find....clarity! One thing which you will never find.....dribble. I would never have been allowed to utter anything, which even touched, on being called ''dribble,'' by my late mother. just as I have never allowed my own children, to get away with talking horseshit!

[Canticle]

As I understand it, the aim of Hamas is not genocide of the Jewish people but the replacement of the state of Israel with a muslim state which I believe to be a legitimate if somewhat undesirable aim.. every bit as much as Israel being the Jewish state it is.. some people may read that as a threat of genocide but Im afraid I do not.. it is certainly less of a threat of genocide than your occasional call to Nuke the fuck out of Iran and anyone else you dont like if they don't behave theselves in accord with the wishes of the US and Israel...

Choices do have consequences.. and they always have consequences not just for those that make the choice. Maybe Israel, and the United States should remember that in the not too distant future..

Thank you for pointing that out, Fran and I'll say and be damned.....Well said!

[Canticle]

''I agree fran, my posts can leave a lot to answer for.....''

Now, i would never comment upon your style, or content, presented the way you wish to present it. I could, but I wouldn't. Maybe I am too polite!

''but I am not known as a person that will multi quote a persons post just so I can add childish dribble.....''

What you don't like, or don't agree with, you call childish dribble. Many things, which you have posted, both upon this thread and others, could be read and many different conclusions drawn, by individuals. I see things which I agree with and disagree with.....but i would never criticise your style.

''I am no great communicator, but at least I am a lil more respectful of peoples questions''

I really do not understand why, you don't see yourself as a great communicator. You come across very clearly to me. I am always respectful of a person's questions, except when they begin to post certain things, which seem cruel or nasty, vulgar, crude and rude when there is no call for it, or when I feel that a people is being portryed as not worth the shit, we may wipe from our boots and the ideals of others, not worth defending.

''canticle asked questions of me, I answered them in post # 256 and well, canticles responses ( #259 ) to most of my replies... well..... hardly intelligent were they or needed''

I answered you my way. I was tired of the anti Palestinian lobby and of some of the things said...and you obviously missed my sarcasm. It wasn't very good sarcasm.......I can be a wizard at it.....but as sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....I try not to go there...if I can avoid it.

''it indicates a person that lacks the intelligence to create a post of their own and express their thoughts ... instead they need to disect another persons posts and comment on every lil part and thats where the dribble comes into it.....as they lack anything intelligent to say for every quoted part''

Now the insults again.....Now I lack a certain kind of intelligence. How dare you suggest such a thing. Yes, I dissect the prose of other people. Scroll back and you will read why. Don't try to tell me that I am not intelligent.

''all I am asking if canticle needs to post dribble, please do it to others posts, as I perfer not to reread my own replies covered in dribble....''

Heck! Now, you want special treatment? That would hardly be fair....would it. I don't drool...I don't dribble and I don't vomit up vile stuff either. And a few people have said some very near the knuckle things.....on this very thread.

[Canticle]

You are right.. it's not pointless.. though at times frustrating.. and the frustration come feeling that democracy and human rights only a few people really believe in. Many pay lip service to it, but do not really value it.

The right to peaceful assembly, demonstrating, protesting, are all things that it seems lately have been equated with hooligan-ism or some negative connotation.

Anyway, I will continue to comment. Just need my occasional time-outs :)

Firstly, I want to apologise. Last night, I referred to you as ''HardHubby.'' Blame that on my failing eyesight and my need of a sight test. So, sorry about that.

Fran is right, it's never pointless. Whatever we can say or do, in the smallest or largest manner, to change this world of ours for the better, is worth it. If we are able to convince one person, to see the light, and look at something in a different way...then that change may leap from individual to individual.

We shouldn't preach. We should show, by example and with the words that come from deep within. the words which express our principles, belief, conviction and we set this before another. Their's to accept or reject. Their's to act upon and pass on the word. Whichever course they decide to take, we will have done out bit.

[Canticle]

I agree in part Duckie.. like all of us she can be inarticulate at times but she has quite frequently argued quite passionately and articulately oin points she wishes to make.. and sometimes she does comment and reply when it is unnecessry and pointlessly.. I am at fault sometimes for that myself so have no room to talk.. but as I said we all debate in our own way.. there are more important issues at stake in this and on other debates than arguing and making an issue of another's debating style....

..some times when I've re-read my posts I am horrified not usually at content, although sometimes that too, but in composition and style whether they are contained in anothers post or merely referred to.. but it has to be done sadly.. I, my love, like you and Canticle, am but an imperfect instrument of the pen (or keyboard..pen sounds better..).

..and yet again Duckie.. this debate has taken on a personal edge with whcih I feel uncomfortable.. I blame no one in particular, and it may be that the subject matter makes that inevitable, although I do not believe so.. I just wish that we could forget the personal and just argue the merit of what is an incredibly important and tragic issue.. as Kate keeps telling me "Don't be stupid you daft bitch, you're living in cloud cuckoo land..." and my mum "Maybe sometimes, Frankie, you should remove your head from up your arse..":(

I don't believe that I am ever inarticulate. I've never been called that, at any point in my life. I've been guilty of not having the confidence to put myself out there in the world, but inarticulate.....No...never.

Yes, I am passionate about what I believe in and I will express myself, to the best of my ability......but my replies are always necessary and never pointless...because to me, they are necessary and have meaning.

I'm not always correct and i can't always answer a question and thank the Cosmos, I am imperfect. For if there were no imperfections, there would be nothing to make perfect and we should all strive for that.

This has taken on a personal feel and the taste it leaves, within the mouth, is acrid. It lingers and causes pain. I have been called racist, anti-semitic, lacking intelligence etc. I don't believe I have accused anyone of actually being anything like that. Intolerant...Yes.....getting close to racist and relgiously intolerant remarks and also beginning to sound like the propaganda, governments churn out, but no direct accusations....though I am sure a certain person...will now correct me.

I don't believe in the cause of Zion. It seems many people think that others should, without argument and criticism, of the state of Israel. So many, of those people supporting Israel, don't seem to give a damn about the many innocent Palestinians. I'd feel the same way, if the people suffering, were Jews, in a wasteland of an Israel.

We are talking about people...not how holy a land may be. We are talking about the elderly, children, babies, the disabled and the ordinary citizen, who just wants to live a peaceful life. That is what matters.

[mariersa]

HOORAH for Helen Thomas!!! you know that Senior Presidential reporter who I guess finally had enough of the White House BS after 50 years covering it and Finally Told It The Way It Is!!!! that was Friday today she Retired yikes what a coincidence:bowdown:




oh i'm going om holiday today for 5 weeks so flames and whatever else you call it prob will go unanswered, not worth the time or running a battery low(lappy)

[Canticle]

''the way something that was very real and very dangerous, was dismissed as trivial, is my issue with canticles posts''

Excuse me, for post after post, people, who do not share your views and the views of others, tried to debate rationally and we then have one person, going on about ''nuking,'' Iran and you saying you'd have let the boats deliver the aid and then sunk them.

I call that dangerous and not dismissive, but spouting quite vile ideas. To see people post and support Israel is one thing, but for people to react, as if any criticism of Israel, is a personal insult, is unhealthy and very odd...Well, it is in my neck of the woods.

''unlike most people, I speak from experience in some fields, and jumping out of helicopters, weapons, military combat etc, is one of them.....''

You keep telling us this......but you are not the only armed forces veteran, here. Many people upon the site, have served in their country's army, navy, or airforce.

''its like you, fran, you speak from experience as a activist on the front line, you have been there, you know what is going thru peoples heads and how hard it can be on the mind and body, facing the riot squad''

Yeah, Fran will know and I know people who have been activists and I once knew, via my mother working with his wife, a member of the IRA. I've only ever protested on a small scale, within the work environment, so I don't know what it's like on the picket lines, but I do know, that I would be prepared to give my life fighting for what was right and the rights of others, even those people, I may not actually agree with.

''so when somebody says bully to me being in the military and how * dramatic * the israeli forces were by a armchair critic, its rather offensive, specially when that person doesn't have the experience in that type of situation or the activist experience....''

I found certain things, you said, offensive. Like I said.....earlier....you didn't pick up on my sarcasm.

''getting out of a helicopter and into a hostile situation and facing hostile, armed people is not a walk in the park, most vets know to take a shit before getting on the copter cos it could end up in ya pants if you don't.... you are facing a unknown enemy that can be intent on ending your life and you are pretty much highly at risk until you can get on the deck of the boat....''

And how do you think the people on the boats were feeling, when they saw the helicopters and armed troops? I guess that's different, though.

''as for the activists on the boat that were peaceful, non aggressive, well, they find themselves in a situation with gun fire and military forces coming on board and thats really gotta scare the shit outta most of them....
I reckon a lot of them signed on for a aid mission, not the mission from hell.....''

Well the Israelis commandos, certainly turned it into hell.

''thats why I am not arguing over israel and the palestines and gaza etc..... but sharing from real life experience, how it could have been avoided... and what would have happened on that boat that led to 9 deaths.... in the hope that it may help others understand a lil clearly that its not as easy as reading a book or a newspaper or watching tv and arguing history.....''

Strange...I thought you had made some comments about Israel and Palestine. I'll have to check.

Another point, you're no longer in the forces, I take it? I guess things could have changed, in the short time you have been away from such activity. It can't be decades, for you are not that old, but you are now talking from experience, but as a civilian. I'd say that the military of one countries, is likely to behave in a different manner, from another country's forces and that the sophistication of arms used, is changing all the time.

Luckily, the majority of us will never have to see military action, or be in dangerous situations. We may not have the personal experience, of someone who has been in the forces, but we can guess that both the commandos and the people on the boats, were scared, but for different reasons and the adrenalin was running high. We can gauge, that in such a situation, what was not planned to be a violent attack, turned out as just that. We only have to think of the terrible things, that happen in any war or conflict situation.

''knowledge is one thing, but experience is another..... reading the newspaper never caused me to near shit my pants....''

Well, there will always be young men, who will be doing that...just as long as there is war and conflict. And we can't all be members of the forces. We have to rely upon the media and the words of those, there, in any one situation, to inform us of what happened.

[Canticle]

And with that, I'm bowing out. Not running away, I never do that, but bowing out. The subject is not pointless, but the debating is.

I find that trying talk to such ardent and fundamentalist Pro-Zionists (and why, I wonder...Is is because of government policy). is as futile as trying to debate with fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist creationist Christians or fundamentalist atheists.

There, that should please a few people

So, ''Goodnight and Goodluck''

[Long Duck Dong]

Your're welcome LDD. However, can a soldier resist from pulling the trigger because as a soldier he has been trained to follow orders without question.

At that point is where the political interface can do its worst damage. The faceless chain of command says that is a bad guy and the soldier follows orders beleiving that his politicians are faultless and well meaning.

Clearly the politicians and higher command got it wrong in the original flotilla to Gaza. Never, has Israel been more isolated that it is now. It has damaged its relationship with friends to the extent that even its best ally says this cannot continue.

So offers, suggestion, threats, of external involvement are stacking up Lets' hope that there is a peaceful and successful outcome on this matter.

.

the chain of command works on the premise that you are sending numbers to remove obstacles and that is a lot of reason why there is a move to minimize eye to eye target contact..... its not to do with safety and minimizing loss of life..... and a lot more to do with the fact that its easier to retain your sanity if you use lethal force and never face the fact you killed somebodies family member, lover, partner......

thats the key to understanding what happened..... the average person will see soldiers boarding a ship, being attacked by activists and lethal force being used......

what actually happened is different...
trained soldiers entered a hostile environment, their role was to subdue resistance, take command of the bridge, and await further orders.....
they were not armed to engage, they carried side arms in the event of hostile aggressive resistance as a further measure.....

the activists ( the hostile ones ) reacted with force and turned the ship into a full combat zone, indicating that they were capable of using lethal force....

in a trained soldier, the first thing that happens is that all thoughts of friend and foe go out the window, they slip into evaluate / eliminate mode...and thats what the soldiers did.... they eliminated a lethal threat....not activists and not people, they eliminated a lethal threat.....

you are the ones that see people taking other peoples lives and you are the ones that add the labels of activist and soldier... and morals, ethics, emotions, judgments
soldiers generally don't..... that can cost us our lives in a hostile zone where lethal force is being used....

now the iran elite quard is talking about getting involved.... they are not protecting the activists, they do not care about the activists, they are looking for a way to eliminate what they percieve to be a viable threat.... the israeli soldiers......

this is why I am saying.... can we just sail the ships into ashdod port..... and stop more bloodshed and loss of life.... or are people so hellbent on being right that they are happy to push for actions that could result in major loss of life....

[Long Duck Dong]

When it comes to things military I am nothing other than an armchair critic except for looking up at a bloody great Land Rover or Lorry which could squidge me like a midgie... I am ignorant of most things military but it should not debar me from comment on its function.. the primary function is to be ready to kill and destroy at the behest of the Government and its commanders.. defence of the realm fantasy I leave to others for it as much to do with internal as external control when the need arises.. that I have the right to comment is undeniable.. whether some of the things I say should be saiid is debatable.. and so it is with us all about all sorts of things said by all kinds of people..

I am sure you are right that people did not sign up for the kind of voyage end they got.. but they must have at least been aware that just such an end was a possibility.. they may not have wanted it but they are not stupid people, however much you may think so, and as any good activist in pursuit of any cause knows, they knew things would not be easy and were prepared for the worst and the unpredictable.. that does not mean they were prepared to respond as you and others have claimed by being first to go on the attack.. it merely means what it says..

I will not speak for all of the activists, as there was 6.99 ships that never raised arms against the commandos..... they are people that I would deem as intelligent and peaceful activists that only wanted to deliever aid....

my issue is with the ones that got aggressive, they placed everybody at risk....and thats what cost lives....

honestly fran, I am not convinced that the people that attacked the commandos were part of the original aid movement... their mannerism and way of handling things is not normal for a activist / pacifist movement....
and I am not just refering to the attacking of the soldiers......

I did glance at a news report that claimed that the 9 killed were actually part of a seperate group that boarded the shop at a different port...... but since I never read that article properly, I can not really comment..... but it would match my gut feelings

[darkeyes]

I would suggest, Fran, that my use of the Queen's English (and used to the best of my ability...please note...I stick commas everywhere, for I am never sure, where to put them), expresses me.

I believe that sometimes...very often...people only read, what they want to read and so there comes a time, when, to make them read, you have to take their prose, bit by bit. An unfortunate thing...but in recent years, something, which I have found to be very necessary.

I do, at times, add a little humour to posts. I am a reserved person, but I am told that I have a dry humour.....so I must be getting something right!

One thing, which you will always find....clarity! One thing which you will never find.....dribble. I would never have been allowed to utter anything, which even touched, on being called ''dribble,'' by my late mother. just as I have never allowed my own children, to get away with talking horseshit!

The word I would use is drivel... much less nice and much more descrptive of when dross is reeled out of gobs.. cyber or otheriwse.....

[darkeyes]

I don't believe that I am ever inarticulate. I've never been called that, at any point in my life. I've been guilty of not having the confidence to put myself out there in the world, but inarticulate.....No...never.

Yes, I am passionate about what I believe in and I will express myself, to the best of my ability......but my replies are always necessary and never pointless...because to me, they are necessary and have meaning.

I'm not always correct and i can't always answer a question and thank the Cosmos, I am imperfect. For if there were no imperfections, there would be nothing to make perfect and we should all strive for that.

This has taken on a personal feel and the taste it leaves, within the mouth, is acrid. It lingers and causes pain. I have been called racist, anti-semitic, lacking intelligence etc. I don't believe I have accused anyone of actually being anything like that. Intolerant...Yes.....getting close to racist and relgiously intolerant remarks and also beginning to sound like the propaganda, governments churn out, but no direct accusations....though I am sure a certain person...will now correct me.

I don't believe in the cause of Zion. It seems many people think that others should, without argument and criticism, of the state of Israel. So many, of those people supporting Israel, don't seem to give a damn about the many innocent Palestinians. I'd feel the same way, if the people suffering, were Jews, in a wasteland of an Israel.

We are talking about people...not how holy a land may be. We are talking about the elderly, children, babies, the disabled and the ordinary citizen, who just wants to live a peaceful life. That is what matters.

*Accepts slapped face gracefully and laughs*

Imperfection me darlin', muchly makes us who we are, Canticle.. be not ashamed of it. God knows I'm mightily flawed myself... rather have your imperfections that the perfections of other, more pious people...:)

[Hephaestion]

HOORAH for Helen Thomas!!! you know that Senior Presidential reporter who I guess finally had enough of the White House BS after 50 years covering it and Finally Told It The Way It Is!!!! that was Friday today she Retired yikes what a coincidence:bowdown:

oh i'm going om holiday today for 5 weeks so flames and whatever else you call it prob will go unanswered, not worth the time or running a battery low(lappy)


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7145664.ece

“Any comments on Israel?” she was asked. “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine,” she replied.

Heph suggests relocating them in the USA as "New Israel" (New York, Nova Scotia, NEw Zealand etc...) where they will be loved and not hated.

".....Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,....."

[Hephaestion]

LDD - see post 167 please

The soldiers started firing BEFORE they landed on the Mavi Marmara. On the other boats the were no less gentle. The witnesses on at least one other boat tells of stun grenades and rubber bullets.

.

[TwylaTwobits]

Amusing, Heph, I'm beginning to see why we dumped the tea in the Boston Harbor with such glee.

Britain was the main reason Israel was given this land after the Holocaust, you remember that little thing that cost the nation of Jews 6million people, over a million children. This land was created so they would have a nation where they were not scorned, not murdered and not oppressed. The very day that Israel was ready to take up their own status they were attacked by Arab nations with the intent of wiping them off the face of this Earth. They repelled the attack and even gained ground. The IDF leader was quoted as saying "Israel will never again be left without the means to defend themselves" Now you think they should just pack up and go "home" They are home. And they have the right to live in peace, not under constant attack, not with Gaza firing rockets into civilian areas.

There are innocents in Gaza, Israel recognizes that and will allow humanitarian aid. But not anything that can be used against Israel. Yet Hamas is on record as stating they will not accept any aid that Israel has vetted? Why? Because they know that nothing is gonna slide past Israeli inspection. Do you honestly believe that Israel should just allow guns and whatever into Gaza? Fine maybe they should, and then I guess Israel has the right to completely wipe them out. Yeah that sounds like a great solution right? No, there are innocents there that don't deserve to be butchered because of their leaders. The same with Israel, there are innocents who don't deserve to have to fear being murdered in their beds by a rocket fired from Gaza and they damned sure don't deserve the scorn that people in Britain seem determined to lay on them, never mind Britain put them there in the first place.

[darkeyes]

Amusing, Heph, I'm beginning to see why we dumped the tea in the Boston Harbor with such glee.

Britain was the main reason Israel was given this land after the Holocaust, you remember that little thing that cost the nation of Jews 6million people, over a million children. This land was created so they would have a nation where they were not scorned, not murdered and not oppressed. The very day that Israel was ready to take up their own status they were attacked by Arab nations with the intent of wiping them off the face of this Earth. They repelled the attack and even gained ground. The IDF leader was quoted as saying "Israel will never again be left without the means to defend themselves" Now you think they should just pack up and go "home" They are home. And they have the right to live in peace, not under constant attack, not with Gaza firing rockets into civilian areas.

There are innocents in Gaza, Israel recognizes that and will allow humanitarian aid. But not anything that can be used against Israel. Yet Hamas is on record as stating they will not accept any aid that Israel has vetted? Why? Because they know that nothing is gonna slide past Israeli inspection. Do you honestly believe that Israel should just allow guns and whatever into Gaza? Fine maybe they should, and then I guess Israel has the right to completely wipe them out. Yeah that sounds like a great solution right? No, there are innocents there that don't deserve to be butchered because of their leaders. The same with Israel, there are innocents who don't deserve to have to fear being murdered in their beds by a rocket fired from Gaza and they damned sure don't deserve the scorn that people in Britain seem determined to lay on them, never mind Britain put them there in the first place.

As my last comment on this for a few days Twyla.. Britain wasn't.. I think you should read your history a little closer or find another.. the UN was responsible for the establishment of the state of Israel.. the British mandate (given by the old League of Nations) was due to expire and Britian was in no position to renew it and did not wish to do so, and so was to leave at its expiry in any case.. the UN role is interesting and it is its strategy which was responsible largely the civil war in Palestine which preceded Israel's Declaration of Independence the day before the mandate ended.. Palestinian arabs had fled their homes in droves and the collapse of the Palestinian arab economy was a direct result of the UN strategy largely pushed by the US. It is a very complex issue.. that Britain bears so much responsibility for the problem cannot be denied, it does not bear the responisibility you lay at its door quite in the way you put it.. that Britian should have resolved the issue long before it did is undeniable, but in the end it was the UN strategy which created the wars preceding and following the creation of the Israeli state.

Till next week xoxoxox.

[TwylaTwobits]

Fran, my point is they were put there. They are home. And everyone saying they should be moved elsewhere is nothing more than just whistling in the wind. Defense of home is second nature to anyone, more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD - see post 167 please

The soldiers started firing BEFORE they landed on the Mavi Marmara. On the other boats the were no less gentle. The witnesses on at least one other boat tells of stun grenades and rubber bullets.

.

israeli stated that they fired across the bow of the lead ship before they boarded it.....I am not surprised people heard shots..... but I find it a lil hard to believe that soldiers rappeling down ropes, were opening fire, as its not that easy to do..... so I am inclined to believe that the shots came from other people on boats and in the copters....

I have been told that yes sound grenades were fired onto the ships before boarding.... and they are vastly different to bullets, so I am waiting to see independent video of the ships showing damage to the ships consistent with live round firing .... that would support the claims of rounds fired before boarding..... unless the bullets never hit the ship, which would support suppressive fire, not lethal fire....or they were rubber bullets
that type of action is designed to cause panic and unsettle people, not to harm them....

that tells me that the activists that attacked the commandos, were not your average activist, as your normal activist would duck for cover, not engage the commandos.... something that a few other people have noticed in various media and websites....

the actions in detaining the activists is standard, the handties etc..... its the same tactic the us and british troops use in iraq....... so it was not excessive, it is a non aggressive way of handing potential issues in the event of a armed exchange of fire....

the israelis state that they believed that they may be facing armed people...and there is speculation ( unproven at this stage ) that people were shot with weapons that the israelis were NOT carrying .... if that is true.... then once again, it would prove that not all of the people of the ships, were activists, they were there for a different agenda....

I am not denying what happened on the ships, I am just not believing various versions of events from protestors and activists that may not have a understanding on what was actually happening or what weapons and bullets were actually used.....

hell even the police can mistake a bb gun for a real one and some of them are ex trained soldiers.....

[tenni]

Fran, my point is they were put there. They are home. And everyone saying they should be moved elsewhere is nothing more than just whistling in the wind. Defense of home is second nature to anyone, more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives.

Twyla
You do seem to enjoy repeating the propoganda myths that you have been brainwashed with...lol

Russia lost more lives than the Jews during WW2 but lets not let this thread become a reliving of WW2. 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. The exact number of Russians who died during WW2 is speculative still but I've heard reports of as many as 26 million Russians died during WW2. Both groups suffered horribly and the propoganda about how much the jews suffered is sometimes over dominating. It was horrific and that can not be denied but the Jews were not the only group in history to suffer such great tragedies. If you are ever in Russia, you may want to take note of how many war memorials that there are to those who died during WW2. Brides still go and place their wedding boquet at the foot of these memorials as part of their wedding celebrations. We rarely hear about the great losses that the Russians suffered.

Reality today is that there are two groups both claiming the same territory as their home and neither seems to want to share the land in peace. Both have made errors and both have been victims. If the USA removed its financial support, would Israel disappear? I don't know but the US is certainly in part responsible for the present situation. It can not be said that the US has not tried to "fix it" at the same time that they pay such huge amounts of money more to Israel than Palestinians. This happens both at the state sponsored aid level and individual US people aid level. Are the funds balanced to both groups? Clearly not. The US citizens and Canadian citizens were permitted to give huge amounts of money to the IRA as well. That only prolonged the suffering in Ireland. The US and Canada governments want the Palestinians in Gaza to suffer because they dared to democratically elect Hamas as their government. Remember that this was done democratically. Hamas is wrong to continue sending rockets into to Israel. Can we really blame them though? REallY?...lol What would you do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza?

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla
You do seem to enjoy repeating the propoganda myths that you have been brainwashed with...lol

Russia lost more lives than the Jews during WW2 but lets not let this thread become a reliving of WW2. 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. The exact number of Russians who died during WW2 is speculative still but I've heard reports of as many as 26 million Russians died during WW2. Both groups suffered horribly and the propoganda about how much the jews suffered is sometimes over dominating. It was horrific and that can not be denied but the Jews were not the only group in history to suffer such great tragedies. If you are ever in Russia, you may want to take note of how many war memorials that there are to those who died during WW2. Brides still go and place their wedding boquet at the foot of these memorials as part of their wedding celebrations. We rarely hear about the great losses that the Russians suffered.

Reality today is that there are two groups both claiming the same territory as their home and neither seems to want to share the land in peace. Both have made errors and both have been victims. If the USA removed its financial support, would Israel disappear? I don't know but the US is certainly in part responsible for the present situation. It can not be said that the US has not tried to "fix it" at the same time that they pay such huge amounts of money more to Israel than Palestinians. This happens both at the state sponsored aid level and individual US people aid level. Are the funds balanced to both groups? Clearly not. The US citizens and Canadian citizens were permitted to give huge amounts of money to the IRA as well. That only prolonged the suffering in Ireland. The US and Canada governments want the Palestinians in Gaza to suffer because they dared to democratically elect Hamas as their government. Remember that this was done democratically. Hamas is wrong to continue sending rockets into to Israel. Can we really blame them though? REallY?...lol What would you do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza?


Tenni, please don't twist what I said, I said that the Jewish nation lost more lives at one time than anyone else due to a country trying to exterminate them. This wasn't war time casualties, this was gas ovens and digging your own graves before a squadron of soldiers riddled your body with bullets. And speculative totals don't prove anything, Tenni. Now as to your point that Hamas was elected democratically, sure they were and so was Hitler. I'm sure the majority of the citizens of Palestine cheerfully voted for them and then found to their horror that they weren't interested in anything resembling peace they want the Jewish nation exterminated. Not removed from "their land" exterminated. Yes, I blame Gaza for sending rockets into Israel when they know that Israel will only prolong the blockade. I blame Gaza for not standing up and telling Hamas "No More" and "Let Gilad Shalit free" so that they may finally get the relief that people are trying to get through to them. And what proof does anyone have that anything that makes it into Gaza goes to the people who need it anyway? Especially with Hamas stating they will accept no aid that has been vetted by Israel. Because they know there will be no secret messages, no gun parts, no supplies to make ammunition and bombs and damned sure no more rockets. So yes I blame the people of Gaza for not taking a stand, if Hamas was democratically elected they can be democratically overthrown by the people who want peace. So spare the brainwashed US crap, I have never allowed anyone else to do my thinking for me.

Oh and lovely quote about the Democratically elected Hamas...


In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family.

Read all about it yourself

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

And their covenant

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Yes Hamas is such a lovely group of people, bound and determined to remove an entire race from this world simply because they believe that exterminating them is the will of Allah.

[tenni]

Twyla
Your exact words "more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives." do not refer to one time.

I see now that you are referring to the entire history of humanity. We do not have the figures and so we can only accept your premise in all fairness yes the Jews have suffered...and Jewish comedians love to repeat that over and over again.

Your points about democratically elected and justification to nullify the importance of that is selective rationalization. Ok, for you it is not important that Hammas is the democratically elected government of Gaza because "you" do like them. You blame Gaza citizens for not standing up against Hamas. The fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government should inform you that they think that Hamas is the best group to stand up for Gaza's citizens. You get to vote for your president and democratically elect whom ever you want. Uh..lots of us didn't like your last president but there he was doing what he wanted to do. Invading and killing hundreds of thousands and all. Why you don't have him in jail and still argue about Gaza's citizens is too strange. I therefore should hold you responsible for illegally invading Iraq and blame you for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. I should blame you and all US citizens for not arresting your last president. Gaza citizens are bad.... but not US citizens?... but back to Gaza. I hold Hamas responsible for any Jews that the rockets kill. Do you hold Israel responsible and blame Israel for killing Turks and one of your own citizens? I suspect that you do not hold Israel responsible and support Israel in killing people in international waters. Let's agree to not agree.

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla
Your exact words "more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives." do not refer to one time.

I see now that you are referring to the entire history of humanity. We do not have the figures and so we can only accept your premise in all fairness yes the Jews have suffered...and Jewish comedians love to repeat that over and over again.

Your points about democratically elected and justification to nullify the importance of that is selective rationalization. Ok, for you it is not important that Hammas is the democratically elected government of Gaza because "you" do like them. You blame Gaza citizens for not standing up against Hamas. The fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government should inform you that they think that Hamas is the best group to stand up for Gaza's citizens. You get to vote for your president and democratically elect whom ever you want. Uh..lots of us didn't like your last president but there he was doing what he wanted to do. Invading and killing hundreds of thousands and all. Why you don't have him in jail and still argue about Gaza's citizens is too strange. I therefore should hold you responsible for illegally invading Iraq and blame you for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. I should blame you and all US citizens for not arresting your last president. Gaza citizens are bad.... but not US citizens?... but back to Gaza. I hold Hamas responsible for any Jews that the rockets kill. Do you hold Israel responsible and blame Israel for killing Turks and one of your own citizens? I suspect that you do not hold Israel responsible and support Israel in killing people in international waters. Let's agree to not agree.

Go ahead and blame me, Tenni. That's your opinion, but your remarks are totally uncalled for. Israel acts in self defense, Gaza fires rockets cause it hates Jews. Yeah so blame me for the Iraqi war and blame me for global warming and blame me for Al Queda flying planes into a civilian area for no other reason than they didn't like America.

[tenni]

Twyla re post 305

A little drama madam with your whine?:bigrin:

Th remarks were called for to show a comparison of your logic falacy. I don't blame you as I hope that you opposed (blamed ) your government's evil deeds at some point in time during the reign of King George ( or was it really King Dick?).

As to who is defending themselves is where the questions become more difficult to assess. Are Israel's actions self defence or acts of aggression? Are the Palestinians' defending themselves or being the aggressors?

This post may be followed by a protest by Pasa about picking on us....anti-American...yada..yada...

[TwylaTwobits]

A little drama madam with your whine?:bigrin:

It was an comparison of your logic. I don't blame you as I hope that you opposed your government's evil deeds at some point at some time during the reign of King George ( or was it really King Dick?).

As to who is defending themselves is where the questions become more difficult to assess. Are Israel's actions self defence or acts of aggression? Are the Palestinians' defending themselves or being an aggressor?

Actually, I was sitting here wondering why you were trying to bait me into saying something bannable? You know full well that I opposed Bush and a lot of other Americans did as well. You know full well that he was close to being called to answer in an impeachment trial. You know full well that America is at heart a defender of freedom. Yes, I support Israel. I have made no secret of that. But I also remember there are still some innocent people in Gaza. I posted the Hamas charter claiming they want to wipe out the Jews. Hamas is a terrorist organization posing as a unified goverment. You would care if it was Canadians they wanted to wipe out cause they couldn't stand someone saying "Eh?". Why don't you care that want to wipe out an entire religious nation? And something else and you can't deny it, if Canada was ever attacked by something like Hamas, America would have your back in a heartbeat with all the firepower we could bring to bear.

[tenni]

You need to give me 5 to 10 minutes as I frequently alter edit my post...;) This is not about (the) "US". The beginning of any US posters reference to their country on a thread not about their country...I glaze over...sorry what did you say about the US as a saviour...never mind......

[TwylaTwobits]

You need to give me 5 to 10 minutes as I frequently alter edit my post...;) This is not about (the) "US". The beginning of any US posters reference to their country on a thread not about their country...I glaze over...sorry what did you say about the US as a saviour...never mind......

Funny, can't deny what I said so you make sarcasm about it. There is no denying that Hamas wants the complete annihilation of the Jews and as for them wanting peace?? Read the charter. Never mind that might be too much work so I'll quote that part..


'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni was right about one thing: The people of "Palestine" elected Hamas as their government.

Which means they support terrorism. They support suicide bombings. They support bombs in Discos, and nurseries, and playgrounds, and buses, and apartment buildings. They support RPGs being fired, not at military targets, but at no particular target at all. They support the Hamas position that no solution can be acceptable as long as Israel exists.

And one wonders why I cannot give equal weight to both sides? There is no moral equivalency. Israel is a democracy who tries, and sometimes fails, to live under the democratic system. Palestine is a terrorist "state" who refuses, by it's very charter, to allow their neighbor to exist.

Palestine could have Gaza and the Western Bank fixed. Today. It could have everything it wants. All it has to do is commit itself to leaving Israel alone. Lay down their arms, quit allowing Syria and Iran to whisper in their ear while placing AKs and RPGs in the hands of their children.

No. This is not a situation of two sides who are equally abused and abusers. There is no moral equivalency. They, their nation, are terrorists who elected terrorists to commit acts of terrorism. The Hamas are butchers who even butcher their own countrymen. And they were elected.

No. Moral. Equivalence.

Pasa

[tenni]

Pasa
re:your post 310
If you read my post 304, you will not read that I referred to the Palestinians electing Hamas. If you do find it somewhere else I didn't mean all Palestinians as they are not all in Gaza. I referred to "the people of Gaza electing Hamas".

I think that it is a perspective (that you seem to support) to believe that the people of Gaza support terrorism etc. I don't think that the people of Gaza would explain it that way though. I have no idea how they might contextualize what you see as terrorism, which state is terrorist state etc. Both democratically elected their governments as far as I can determine. Some people in your country and Israel don't like the results of the election.

I'm not sure demanding that Gaza or Palestine put down their arms for peace. Why doesn't your country put down its arms for peace? Few countries are willing to totally disarm. Your words indicate that you are not keen on recognizing Palestine or Gaza as sovereign states. They see themselves as sovereign or demand their sovereignty.

I have never discussed this with a Palestinian or a middle east person from other than Israel. Have you Pasa?....Twyla? I try to keep my mind a little open to both voices.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't need to. I read their press releases. What part of "there can be no peace as long as Israel exists" do you not get, Tenni? That's THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS. That's in their charter. That's not just idle chit chat.

Their financial backers, Iran, says the same thing on a nearly daily basis. Ahmadinijad (sp) states that Israel needs to be wiped off the planet, that the Holocaust never happened, and on, and on, and on.

I don't give a damn, frankly, how the Palestinians would contextualize terrorism. You blow up a nursery, you're a terrorist. And, after what they have done at least in my lifetime, I don't really give a damn if they don't want to lay down their arms. If they want aid, if they want to rebuild, if they want peace, that's what they'll do. Choices have consequences. Choose to be terrorists? You get a siege. Choose to embrace peace, you get all sorts of goodies from the world.

But, they elected terror to lead them. I don't think they want aid, or to rebuild, or peace. I think they want Jihad. I think they want to fight until the last man. And I think, if that's what they want, Israel is more than willing to allow them to.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

LDD - I know that it is difficult to accept but the evidence consistently indicates that the operation was a disaster from the word go. From operating in an area where there was no legal juristiction, judged excessive use of force, loss of general world sympathy to compromising friends and allies.

It was a cock-up where people lost lives and health. The Israelis should really be looking towards a damage limitation exercise where they give free reign to an independant e.g. UN enquiry. They would come out better if they accepted the foregone conclusion that they were in the wrong and changed their stance overtly.

Other countries have done this in the past and salvaged their reputations. As things stand even their own peple are begining to hang their heads in shame. When a country reaches that stage the future looks grim for them.

.

[Hephaestion]

I don't need to. I read their press releases. What part of "there can be no peace as long as Israel exists" do you not get, Tenni? That's THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS. That's in their charter. That's not just idle chit chat.

Their financial backers, Iran, says the same thing on a nearly daily basis. Ahmadinijad (sp) states that Israel needs to be wiped off the planet, that the Holocaust never happened, and on, and on, and on.

I don't give a damn, frankly, how the Palestinians would contextualize terrorism. You blow up a nursery, you're a terrorist. And, after what they have done at least in my lifetime, I don't really give a damn if they don't want to lay down their arms. If they want aid, if they want to rebuild, if they want peace, that's what they'll do. Choices have consequences. Choose to be terrorists? You get a siege. Choose to embrace peace, you get all sorts of goodies from the world.

But, they elected terror to lead them. I don't think they want aid, or to rebuild, or peace. I think they want Jihad. I think they want to fight until the last man. And I think, if that's what they want, Israel is more than willing to allow them to.

Pasa

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Pasadenacpl2]

There are varying degrees of wrong, Heph. The two aren't even in the same category of wrong, let alone being balanced.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There are varying degrees of wrong, Heph. The two aren't even in the same category of wrong, let alone being balanced.

Pasa

You are right - the convoy faux pas is infinitely worse because the targets were precise visible and sitting ducks


.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD - I know that it is difficult to accept but the evidence consistently indicates that the operation was a disaster from the word go. From operating in an area where there was no legal juristiction, judged excessive use of force, loss of general world sympathy to compromising friends and allies.

It was a cock-up where people lost lives and health. The Israelis should really be looking towards a damage limitation exercise where they give free reign to an independant e.g. UN enquiry. They would come out better if they accepted the foregone conclusion that they were in the wrong and changed their stance overtly.

Other countries have done this in the past and salvaged their reputations. As things stand even their own people are beginning to hang their heads in shame. When a country reaches that stage the future looks grim for them.

.

unfortunately, israel was acting according to the international naval / marine rules, regarding the blockade and were within their rights.....
international maritime law (http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)

now I am not defending Israel, their actions or laying the blame on the activists..... I do not think in terms of country or civil / diplomatic rights like most of my fellow posters.....

I am viewing it from the point of one country engaging ships that refused to stop or way lay to a nearby port for the confirmation of non lethal cargo

now the evidence indicates that the ships failed to stop, refused to stop and made every attempt NOT to stop
if it was on land and police officers were dealing with a car, then they were believe that there was good reason to suspect that the occupants may have criminal reason for failing to stop.....
I use the same rule of thumb in regards to the ships.....

the boarding of the ship went wrong the moment that lethal force was applied, regardless of who started it.....
I apply the rule of home self defence there..... a invader in your home may be armed and dangerous, but it doesn't turn to shit, until lethal force is used by the home owner or the invader.....

in this case, lethal force was used against the commandos by *peaceful * protestors..... its a contradiction in terms... it would be like darkeyes ( a pacifist ) training in the SAS as a deep ops commando.....

the commandos were not there to start a firefight, they were there to bring the ships into port, as the activists refused to.....hence they were not fully equipped with full lethal armament..... as they believed they were facing a peaceful not aggressive ship load of passengers.....


now here is where I am confused....

why has pics being edited, not by israel but by reuters
edited pics (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08/reuters-fake-photos-ihh-gaza-blockade-commandos/)

here are 4 videos that show clearly, it was a night time attack.... and that the commandos were attacked 4 videos (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/31/mavi-marmara-video-israel-news-gaza-flotilla_n_595250.html)

this is a video from a IDF boat Boat video (http://dailyradar.com/beltwayblips/video/close-up-footage-of-mavi-marmara-passengers-attacking-1/)

all statements and opinions aside.... you can see peaceful protesters.... engaging in violence and using lethal force...... nobody can tell me any different on that count, as I am seeing the videos, not reading what people may say in news sites......
now I have heard the stories about the commandos using lethal force.... but I have never heard of commandos inflicting injuries on themselves deliberately or beating themselves with iron bars etc.....

ok, like I said, I am not defending israel or accusing the activists, I am treating this the same as I would, a issue between two NZ army platoons,.... I would want answers, not bullshit.... cos I would have heads rolling on the carpet from both sides... and as twyla can tell you, I take no sides, I have even had her ass busted a couple of times in a online game and she is my real life partner, and my friends in the game learnt very quickly that friend or foe.... I seek out the truth but I will not take sides and I perfer to hear, see and understand all points of view

[Pasadenacpl2]

You are right - the convoy faux pas is infinitely worse because the targets were precise visible and sitting ducks


.


Bullshit. They were told not to try to break the blockade. They were warned. They ignored the warning. Their entire mission was to break the blockade. Sorry, they were only sitting ducks because they placed themselves there.

And this is not infinitely worse than blowing up a bus full of passengers, or a thousand other atrocities the Palestinians have committed in their Jihad.

Pasa

[richarddennis]

Crusaders were OK eh...typical

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sense? You make none?

Pasa

[tenni]

"Their entire mission was to break the blockade."

One thing that I am a bit confused about is who has approved this blockade other than Israel? What countries have publicly supported Israel's right to block access to Gaza's ports for humanitarian aid as defined by the UN? I do not believe that the UN has approved this blockade.

Many countries have shown disapproval for the Israel's actions and yet some posters on here claim that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza's waters.

[Pasadenacpl2]

You aren't confused. You know damn well why the blockade was there. And you know damn well that you don't have to have approval of your actions to do something as a sovereign nation. That's the point of being sovereign, Tenni.

Now, there are consequences if you piss off your neighbors, to be sure. For instance, when you continually fire rockets into your neighbor's school yards and shopping centers, you get your neighbor blocking your access to imports.

When Gaza stops shooting at Israel, the blockade will cease. As long as they continue to fire at Israel (no, it really doesn't matter if you think it's justified), they will be under siege. That's the truth. Your, and my, opinion of that truth doesn't matter terribly much. The truth is, Gaza, and the rest of palestine can end this. They choose not to. And they suffer the consequences of that choice. Unfortunately, their sons and daughters also suffer the consequences. But, their parents and leaders made that choice on their behalf. Such is the way of things.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There is no dispute Pasa.

Israel was entirely in the wrong whatever the claimed rules are. The rest of the world says so and this includes the USA albeit quietly. Just look at the collateral damage, the greatest of which is damaging the west's relationship with Turkey.

Israel needs to apologise for its wrong doing throughout the years and for the flotilla incident especially.

Perhaps you could put a duration on the time rewuired for no attacks needed for Israel to lift the blockade from its side. I month, 2 months, 1 year, a decade?

In the meanwhile will Israel stop stealing land and water? The Israelis need to understand that the world is losing patience with them. The blockade is being circumvented as we write.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Still not worse than the terrorism committed by the palestinians. Not even close.

And, Israel didn't steal the land. Palestine lost it due to war. If you go to war, and get your ass kicked you risk losing your land, and your wealth.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

the blockade is to limit or stop lethal weapons going to gaza..... if israel is to stop the blockade, that can lead to a increase in the number of deaths

is that a acceptable result of ending the blockade ????? and if so, will the same people that believe israel is wrong, then accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of the lifting of the blocking ????? or will they pass the blame to the rocket users

under international marine law and UN law, israel has the right to limit or restrict vessels that may be transporting lethal weapons or items used to make lethal weapons.... they are not stopping aid to gaza, they are restricting the importation of dangerous material and allowing the transfer of aid related materials

now the same rules are used with trade embargos against countries that seek to import nuclear material and other weapons..... by the UNSC under international laws.... and blockades

if israel is wrong, then any other trade restriction or embargo is wrong, when applied, using the same rules..... .

again its a case of one set of rules applied differently to different countries....

hamas has stated that they intend to wipe the jews out.....
israel is trying to protect their own and others.....
and why are no other countries standing up and ready to accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of any importation of objects and chemicals that result in the creation of lethal weapons in gaza???

the objections by other countries, are a token gesture.... as they know full well, lifting the blockade, can and will result in more deaths.....and those other countries will sit there with their token objections over the deaths.....

but I can not help but draw a direct connection between gaza and israel...... and the usa and afghanistan......
by hell the usa went to war asap when the twin towers were attacked, citing a act of war and defending their home land, against major opposition from the UN

israel is trying to avoid the same thing while defending their home land..... and being judged as wrong....

[Hephaestion]

0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:

a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN

Seems like the 9/10 flotilla deaths may well go down as martyrs to a cause. Deaths of innocents have a habit of being preserved that way.

UN security council carried the USA proposal that trade sanctions should continue against Iran on the basis of 'continued nuclear research' - TURKEY along with Brazil objected to the sanctions (well done Israel).

.

[tenni]

Pasa my ol buddy debater
You know me so well as to when I'm confused and when I'm not?...lol
I know why the blockade is there. I never said that I didn't know. Perhaps you as a citizen of the US do not give sufficient credence to the UN. The UN has not sanctioned this blockade. If it had been determined to create a blockade the UN might have approved of it. I believe that I wrote earlier that the UN sanctioned the US and several other countries to create a blockade of Iraq during the Gulf war. No such actions this time. I know that the comment might be that Israel does not have the support due to the number if arab countries who would oppose it. Maybe that is true. Who has the right to blockade? Should the rest of us blockade the US for the crap that is spewing out of your Gulf oil wells? Should we blockade the US for creating an international financial crisis? Of course not. Should we blockade the US for invading Iraq? Maybe. Israel is permitted to have the blockade because the US is quietly supporting it..maybe? Still no formal approval by any country that I can recall. Hep is pointing out that the rest of the world is losing its patience with Israel.

Mind you now that I think about it..maybe the US may piss off the rest of us with the environmental disaster that it is creating. USA USA BLOCKADE...kid'n

Do we all know that Wedneday June 9th is raze PASA Day?...:eek::bigrin:



You aren't confused. You know damn well why the blockade was there. And you know damn well that you don't have to have approval of your actions to do something as a sovereign nation. That's the point of being sovereign, Tenni.

Now, there are consequences if you piss off your neighbors, to be sure. For instance, when you continually fire rockets into your neighbor's school yards and shopping centers, you get your neighbor blocking your access to imports.

When Gaza stops shooting at Israel, the blockade will cease. As long as they continue to fire at Israel (no, it really doesn't matter if you think it's justified), they will be under siege. That's the truth. Your, and my, opinion of that truth doesn't matter terribly much. The truth is, Gaza, and the rest of palestine can end this. They choose not to. And they suffer the consequences of that choice. Unfortunately, their sons and daughters also suffer the consequences. But, their parents and leaders made that choice on their behalf. Such is the way of things.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:

a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN

Seems like the 9/10 flotilla deaths may well go down as martyrs to a cause. Deaths of innocents have a habit of being preserved that way.

UN security council carried the USA proposal that trade sanctions should continue against Iran on the basis of 'continued nuclear research' - TURKEY along with Brazil objected to the sanctions (well done Israel).

.

a) agreed
b) agreed, as long as its not aid or supplies that can be used to make weapons
c) agreed if both parties are investigated fully...... protestors and commandos...

honestly I think that what we will hear is the *best * political * findings of the events within the flotilla..... but I have never had much trust in any commissions or findings....
I learnt that in the army, there is the official truth, the unofficial truth and then there is what actually happened which only the people there, actually know and 9 of them are dead

[Hephaestion]

a) agreed
b) agreed, as long as its not aid or supplies that can be used to make weapons
c) agreed if both parties are investigated fully...... protestors and commandos...

honestly I think that what we will hear is the *best * political * findings of the events within the flotilla..... but I have never had much trust in any commissions or findings....
I learnt that in the army, there is the official truth, the unofficial truth and then there is what actually happened which only the people there, actually know and 9 of them are dead


It is possible to make a weapon out of anything given the right circumstances. So the proviso of comment in b is undermined. Even a pencil can be lethal AKA a sharp stick. There is a saying that it takes two to tango so perhaps one should establsih an embargo to disarm the Israelis as they are the ones who are doing the killing (For good measure let's include house building materials and water prospecting equipment to prevent stealing land and water).

The evidence is quite clear. The Israelis went in shooting. It was intended as a hard lesson tactic. Perhaps the intention was intimidation, the only problem being that it went wrong - head shot wrong - right between the eyes. 9 people dead but not a single Israeli, is evidence, despite one of them having been captured and taken to isolation - alive.

People should be given credit that they are able to discern the difference between a ships heavy calibre weapon for a claimed across the bow shot (shoud there also have been a splash?) and the mix of manual and machine guns that would have been fired at the ships and people. The Israelis were armed despite the one time claim that they weren't. The claimed lack of armed aggression on the boats other than the Mavi Marmara turned out to be a lie. Stun grenades and rubber bullets can maim and kill, as can paint guns.

There is only one truth. The rest are fabrications and distortions and these are plainly evident in this case. What a soldier is told to get a job done isn't necessariy the truth.

The Israelis will not accept an impartial investigation becaue they already know the outcome. That is because they already know the truth. They screwed up and killed people - innocent people on a simple humanitarian mission.

That is why they reallly ought to be confessing and asking for the world's mercy, and forgiveness from their allies. They have lost any moral high ground and are currently digging a deepening hole for themselves. Reminder that they need to win back the hearts and minds of the world and continually nurture its goodwill towards them.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

my main question is why did the ships not stop..... they knew that israel did not intend to stop the transfer of aid..... and what the hell were the protesters trying to prove with running the blockade.... was it just a humane mission.... or was it actually more
but as israel has stated, it was simply the failure to stop by the ships that led to the boarding... and the protestors had stated they had no intention of stopping.....
so again, I am not blaming either side, but saying that both sides need to answer for their own actions....


the unanswered question I have, that can not be answered, is why did the 9 people attack commandos.... its not something your average protestor does....and the 9 people that can answer it, are dead....

ok... across the bow shooting, its normally by a ship mounted weapon... and normally rapid fire.... unless you are using a ship mounted small cannon type weapon....
the sounds in the videos I have watched are small calibre fire and single shots...not consistently with a semi automatic or automatic weapon... but consistent with small arms fire, aka pistols....
if there was automatic weapons fire on the boats... you would be seeing a lot of holes in walls as machine guns are useless at close range, limited spread shooting.... pistols work better

allowing for the fact that stun grenades and paint guns were used, the israelis were expecting passive resistance..... not aggressive resistance... the pistols would have been a last resort....
but yes, stun grenades and rubber bullets can kill..... but the israelis were carrying paintball guns.... they do not use rubber bullets...so where did the rubber bullets come into it.... they are limited range bullets and if fired from a boat, the boat would have to be within 20 meters of the ship, close enuf to attempt a ship side boarding....

the official stories ( not story ) are not matching up.... and I am not talking about the israeli side of things.... I am talking about what the protestors are saying....

communications were blocked before the boarding, and I am allowing for a full band block ( signal by satelite and radio ).... yet I constantly hear about radio communications between the ships while a communications block was active ???? sorry... that doesn't ring true... on both sides..

the israelis supposedly confiscated all videos and recordings... yet I am seeing videos from on the ships.... by the protestors.... so it was either not confiscated, smuggled off the boat, transmitted ( again the signal block issue )

the israelis supposedly boarded each ship by copter.... so why are the protestors talking about lowering ladders for commandos to board some ships.. either they did not board each ship by copter or they did but with further support by boat



ok as for weapons... I am thinking weapons grade objects and chemicals .... bomb making etc....
as i posted earlier, there was a few ton of cement that can be used to make bombs.... why was plastercrete not transported instead.... it only requires water, not builders mix gravel... it can be cast in pre fab form better than concrete... its easier to work with, sets faster.. etc etc.....

at the end of the day, hephas.... there is a lot of BS in the media, the israels story and the protestors story.....and 9 dead people.....

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa my ol buddy debater
You know me so well as to when I'm confused and when I'm not?...lol
I know why the blockade is there. I never said that I didn't know. Perhaps you as a citizen of the US do not give sufficient credence to the UN. The UN has not sanctioned this blockade. If it had been determined to create a blockade the UN might have approved of it. I believe that I wrote earlier that the UN sanctioned the US and several other countries to create a blockade of Iraq during the Gulf war. No such actions this time. I know that the comment might be that Israel does not have the support due to the number if arab countries who would oppose it. Maybe that is true. Who has the right to blockade? Should the rest of us blockade the US for the crap that is spewing out of your Gulf oil wells? Should we blockade the US for creating an international financial crisis? Of course not. Should we blockade the US for invading Iraq? Maybe. Israel is permitted to have the blockade because the US is quietly supporting it..maybe? Still no formal approval by any country that I can recall. Hep is pointing out that the rest of the world is losing its patience with Israel.

Mind you now that I think about it..maybe the US may piss off the rest of us with the environmental disaster that it is creating. USA USA BLOCKADE...kid'n

Do we all know that Wedneday June 9th is raze PASA Day?...:eek::bigrin:

I fully welcome any attempt to blockade the US. I also fully welcome any attempt to put the US into an isolationist position. I think you will find that other nations suffer for this far more than the US will.

No, I don't give much credence to the UN. It's a nice get together. But it is NOT a governing body. It does not hold power over nations. That was neither the purpose in the beginning, nor is it now. No one needs the UN's blessing to do anything. Sure, it makes it easier, occasionally, but it's not necessary.

To say that Israel's blockade is illegal because it isn't blessed by the UN is to not understand the scope, purpose, or power of the UN. It is also an indication of not understanding the concept of the word sovereign.

REPEAT: When Palestine stops accepting arms from Iran and Syria, and stops firing those arms into Israel, the blockade will stop. NEWS FLASH: When you try to break a blockade, and get caught, people will die. If you put yourself there on purpose, and you die, you essentially committed suicide and it's your own damn fault.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

at the end of the day, hephas.... there is a lot of BS in the media, the israels story and the protestors story.....and 9 dead people.....

At the end of the day, we have 6 other ships that were boarded without incident. This ship was different for some reason that I won't speculate on. We have a group of people who were told not to try to break the blockade, they didn't listen and instead decided that violence was a better option. That only 9 died should be the story. Those people placed themselves in peril, and have no one to blame but themselves.

Pasa

[hardnbubbly]

I guess being shot in the head from a helicopter is just expected in INTERNATIONAL waters. They didn't even get to Israeli waters let alone Gazan waters. They were on INTERNATIONAL territory.




At the end of the day, we have 6 other ships that were boarded without incident. This ship was different for some reason that I won't speculate on. We have a group of people who were told not to try to break the blockade, they didn't listen and instead decided that violence was a better option. That only 9 died should be the story. Those people placed themselves in peril, and have no one to blame but themselves.

Pasa

[hardnbubbly]

Wow.. since when are you the spokeswoman for Gaza.

Gazan are normal people.. just like you and me.. they are occupied and they are looking for their freedom. Yes there are fanatics and yes there are the pacifists and there are others that don't give a damn.. they don't care who is ruling them as long as they get to feed their kids, get their shelter, their education and their dignity. Same goes for Israelis, there are just as many fanatics who burn mosques, destroy farms, and deface cemeteries.

I guess to you Israel can do no wrong..




Go ahead and blame me, Tenni. That's your opinion, but your remarks are totally uncalled for. Israel acts in self defense, Gaza fires rockets cause it hates Jews. Yeah so blame me for the Iraqi war and blame me for global warming and blame me for Al Queda flying planes into a civilian area for no other reason than they didn't like America.

[tenni]

Ok...if and when the US collapses as a super power due to fiscal mismanagement, depletion of natural resources(already happened) etc. and China or India become "the" super power, we will see how you react if you are blockaded. Until then, keep truck'n on as if being top of the heap will continue forever. Proclaim yourself as exporting freedom and democracy rather than oppressing and controlling other countries like any other "empire" country.


I fully welcome any attempt to blockade the US. I also fully welcome any attempt to put the US into an isolationist position. I think you will find that other nations suffer for this far more than the US will.

No, I don't give much credence to the UN. It's a nice get together. But it is NOT a governing body. It does not hold power over nations. That was neither the purpose in the beginning, nor is it now. No one needs the UN's blessing to do anything. Sure, it makes it easier, occasionally, but it's not necessary.

To say that Israel's blockade is illegal because it isn't blessed by the UN is to not understand the scope, purpose, or power of the UN. It is also an indication of not understanding the concept of the word sovereign.

REPEAT: When Palestine stops accepting arms from Iran and Syria, and stops firing those arms into Israel, the blockade will stop. NEWS FLASH: When you try to break a blockade, and get caught, people will die. If you put yourself there on purpose, and you die, you essentially committed suicide and it's your own damn fault.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Oh, I understand the effect it will have on the US, Tenni. Several things:

1. Do you honestly think any navy, hell, any 4 navies have the ability to blockade us?

2. We'd deplete resources...for awhile. It would actually force us to move ahead in new fuels and new ways of doing things. Innovation is what drives the US, always has been. As for other things, I'm ok with us losing a bit of world power. But, let me ask you, who will step in to take our place?

Who will step in to give the largest amount of both governmental and private aid to both industries and nations? Who will step in to at least try to curb the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Who will step in to feed nations in need? Who will the UN call on whenever it wants a watchdog? Who will defend NATO when Russia decides it no longer wants to play ball (and, if you're watching Putin, this will be within this decade)? Who will stop Iran when the UN finally decides that it was a mistake to allow Iran to go this far? What will Canada do when we no longer trade with you? What will Canada do when other nations decide it wants Canada's resources? We can defend our nation from invasion. Can you? Somehow, I doubt it.

You can villify the US all you want. It's easy to do when you live under the blanket and comfort of the protection we provide you. But, when push comes to shove, we have wielded our power with far more responsibility, and far more benevolence than any other comparable power in the history of the world. For every wrong you can show, I can show ten goods. My nation is not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than you, in your tin foil hat, paints it.

Kindly, and with respect, fuck off.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

I guess being shot in the head from a helicopter is just expected in INTERNATIONAL waters. They didn't even get to Israeli waters let alone Gazan waters. They were on INTERNATIONAL territory.

Agreed. Completely. The one fault I have found with Israel is where they did this. I agree with them about what they did, and even how they did it. But, they pulled the trigger too early. 100% agreed with you.

Pasa

[tenni]

I do apologize for beginning to take this thread off topic and diverting it to the possible blockading of Mr "SuperPOwerrrrrrr" in his possible approaching dotage years.(to make a point via metaphoric comparison) Pasa has now joined me in diverting our attention from the Gaza blockade to some poster's favourite topic...how wonderful or terrible Uncle Sam is. Suffice to say that it is a matter of interpretative speculation as to whether the US may be blockaded one day by a country more powerful than himself. Should any country be permitted to blockade and board cargo ships in international waters? Somolian pirates no...Israel storm trooping commando armed bullies ....?

[Pasadenacpl2]

You keep trying to use trigger words to describe this. I'm sure if you repeat lies often enough, you might get others to repeat them too, and believe them. There is a considerable difference between this and piracy, and you know it.

Now, could you contribute some thing useful other than paranoia and tin foil hat exposition? We get it. You're anti-Israel, and anti-US. Move on.

Pasa

[tenni]

tin foil hat? omg I think of that as words used by radical, extremist narrow minded people as a put down...Did you get your hands on their official "words to use " handbook?...lol

Please expand upon how the differences between Somolian pirates and the Israel's actions ..other than one is a state sponsored act and the other are actions by citizens a near failed state that can not control its citizens. There are few other differences, I agree. Israel is a country that has experienced rockets fired from Gaza. Israel has also done questionable deeds such as using depleted uranium bullets when it invaded neighbouring countries. I agree that this is not a black and white situation. I agree with you that Israel pulled the trigger too soon in International waters. That is the main point here. It was not in Israeli nor Gazan waters. The pirates of Somalia are boarding cargo ships in international waters as well. They held their prisoners and blackmailed the cargo ship owners. Israel is holding all Gazan hostage as well. Israel doesn't want money though. *stops ramble :)



You keep trying to use trigger words to describe this. I'm sure if you repeat lies often enough, you might get others to repeat them too, and believe them. There is a considerable difference between this and piracy, and you know it.

Now, could you contribute some thing useful other than paranoia and tin foil hat exposition? We get it. You're anti-Israel, and anti-US. Move on.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tin Foil hat fits. Hell, the Depleted Uranium claim is one of those conspiracy theory stories. Last I checked, the claim was made in 2000, and found to be wrong. It was made in 2006, and again found to be wrong. And again claimed in 2009. And the IAEA was asked to launch yet another investigation. The IAEA has been remarkably silent on the issue since.

You make claims that you can't back up. You did this about President Bush. You do this now against Israel. You have professed on these boards to believe just about every conspiracy nut to get onto the airwaves with an ax to grind against your preferred targets. It makes you incredibly susceptible to assumption, supposition, and bad journalism.

I'll keep repeating: When Gaza stops attacking Israel and accepts peace, Gaza will cease to be under siege. As long as they maintain a capability, and a desire to attack Israel, they will be under siege. That's how sieges work.

Pasa

[tenni]

Thanks for your perspective but it didn't clear up the differences between between Israel's actions and the Somali pirates actions in international water. You go off topic. Accusations about your government which also has been accused of using depleted uranium bullets in Iraq have been proven but not related to this topic specifically. Accusations about Israel's use of such bullets is relevant to Israel's actions with its neigbhours. No side is completely correct or wrong here. We may only discuss the specific actions and unfortunately mired in a lot of cross accusations and wrong actions. It is a mess. In this case, unless proven otherwise, both you and I agree that Israel was wrong to shoot to kill people in international waters. Yes?


* almost resists commenting on nut cases and Bush metaphoric possibilities...:)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Thanks for your perspective but it didn't clear up the differences between between Israel's actions and the Somali pirates actions in international water. You go off topic. Accusations about your government which also has been accused of using depleted uranium bullets in Iraq have been proven but not related to this topic specifically. Accusations about Israel's use of such bullets is relevant to Israel's actions with its neigbhours. No side is completely correct or wrong here. We may only discuss the specific actions and unfortunately mired in a lot of cross accusations and wrong actions. It is a mess. In this case, unless proven otherwise, both you and I agree that Israel was wrong to shoot to kill people in international waters. Yes?


* almost resists commenting on nut cases and Bush metaphoric possibilities...:)


No, we do not agree.

It was wrong to board in international waters. Once those on board decided to attack, all bets were off. The story here should be that only nine were killed is the more important story here. Having watched every video that's been released so far, those on board are lucky that they only had 9 die.

When you decide to become a combatant against people who are better at it than you, when you are acting in defiance of what they've asked, you have no one to blame but yourself for getting killed.

Pasa

[tenni]

We agree that boarding in international waters was wrong? well there ya go!!! Two other issues:

1/ There are statements from those on the ships that shots were fired before the Israelis boarded. (according to one international maritime law expert who stated that Israel should have used tear gas and not bullets before booarding).

2/ All videos shot by those on board were confiscated by Israel. Israel selectively released some of the video. Accusations exist of editing of the videos.
*I'm not saying that these accusations are correct but they are made by those who were actually on the ships. Three were Canadian and I don't know how he did it or even if he was the one to get this footage. He was on the ship were the shootings happened. He stated that there was blood everywhere. People gasping to breath and others trying desparately trying to keep them alive. Blood spattered all over a wall of the ship was shown in Canada. He stated that it showed how violent the interaction was.



No, we do not agree.

It was wrong to board in international waters. Once those on board decided to attack, all bets were off. The story here should be that only nine were killed is the more important story here. Having watched every video that's been released so far, those on board are lucky that they only had 9 die.

When you decide to become a combatant against people who are better at it than you, when you are acting in defiance of what they've asked, you have no one to blame but yourself for getting killed.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa


Now, I know I bowed out, tired of the futility of debating with Pro-Zionist people, who appear very fundamentalist, in their view of the Middle East's problems, but I just had to comment.

Pasa.......you are amazing!!

[Pasadenacpl2]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

[69luvr]

Oh, I understand the effect it will have on the US, Tenni. Several things:

1. Do you honestly think any navy, hell, any 4 navies have the ability to blockade us?

2. We'd deplete resources...for awhile. It would actually force us to move ahead in new fuels and new ways of doing things. Innovation is what drives the US, always has been. As for other things, I'm ok with us losing a bit of world power. But, let me ask you, who will step in to take our place?

Who will step in to give the largest amount of both governmental and private aid to both industries and nations? Who will step in to at least try to curb the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Who will step in to feed nations in need? Who will the UN call on whenever it wants a watchdog? Who will defend NATO when Russia decides it no longer wants to play ball (and, if you're watching Putin, this will be within this decade)? Who will stop Iran when the UN finally decides that it was a mistake to allow Iran to go this far? What will Canada do when we no longer trade with you? What will Canada do when other nations decide it wants Canada's resources? We can defend our nation from invasion. Can you? Somehow, I doubt it.

You can villify the US all you want. It's easy to do when you live under the blanket and comfort of the protection we provide you. But, when push comes to shove, we have wielded our power with far more responsibility, and far more benevolence than any other comparable power in the history of the world. For every wrong you can show, I can show ten goods. My nation is not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than you, in your tin foil hat, paints it.

Kindly, and with respect, fuck off.

Pasa


WELL SAID! I agree with you 100 per cent!

[69luvr]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa

I'd love to know the person(s) who believe that shots rang out from the helicopter. Perhaps they could then furnish proof! Just like earlier in this thread someone FAILED TO SEE THE VIDEOS showing the"PEACE? ACTIVISTS" attacking soldiers holding onto a rope as they repeled from the helicopter. How convenient! So many haters in this world! Too bad they do not tell the truth in order to support their ridiculous assertions and alleged opinions! REUTERS NEWS AGENCY, another staple of liberal thinking printed doctored photos of the incident. They were forced to admit that the PEACE ACTIVISTS had knives in their hands! They edited that fact out in the photos.

[Canticle]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

No, Pasa, not quips. An observation. I guess that you would like all, who do not agree with you, to bow out. Well, heck, it doesn't happen that way. Of course, as an intelligent person, you will realise exactly what was meant by ''amazing,'' won't you? Yes, I am sure that you must.

Heph and Tenni, I have read your intelligent and very calmly made comments, with great interest. Thank you.

[69luvr]

No, Pasa, not quips. An observation. I guess that you would like all, who do not agree with you, to bow out. Well, heck, it doesn't happen that way. Of course, as an intelligent person, you will realise exactly what was meant by ''amazing,'' won't you? Yes, I am sure that you must.

Heph and Tenni, I have read your intelligent and very calmly made comments, with great interest. Thank you.

an observation as ridiculous as the REUTERS- doctored up photos that were printed worldwide.

Pasa I have read your VERY intelligent posts regarding this issue. I thank you for them. Too bad there are so many blind haters in this world. I know that you knew that they would attack you here and you were right!

[Pasadenacpl2]

No Canticle, I love it when I can debate people like Heph who don't threaten me or make snide comments while saying they're leaving. If you're bowing out, then do so. I never asked you to. But I respected it enough not to take parting shots at you. You, however, just had to come back to take one at me.

Go along, Canticle. Don't you have a report to Drew to make?

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

Let me see if I have this right. The people on the boats had no guns and the soldiers did. So WHO was it shot first?

Hmmm!

Give up Pasa. Even your own country admits that the Iraelis got it wrong. They used soldiers when customs officers would have been more appropriate even though these would have been illegal also.

Announced today by the USA that Israel will have to acquiesce to Arabs being allowed to re-settle back in Israel (rather than stay in the concentration camps as they are now).

[Hephaestion]

Thanks for the compliment Pasa - I hope that I don't let you down

[Pasadenacpl2]

I worded that poorly, Heph. And seeing how I did word it, that was silly of me.

I meant "fired before boarding." Yes, they fired...but they were being attacked.

Did you watch the videos of the melee? Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

BTW, Obama, yesterday, said that Israel has a right to ensure that Gaza can't import weapons. He also said that he would like Gazans to be able to live more freely, but that Israel's right to ensure their safety against weapons comes first.

Pasa

[tenni]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

LOL
You can also be quite funny...if I read with a specific typing voice inflection...lol

...with a different typing inflection....not so much...:tongue:

* wonders if PASA's computer has typing inflections ;)

[tenni]

I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?

[Canticle]

an observation as ridiculous as the REUTERS- doctored up photos that were printed worldwide.

Pasa I have read your VERY intelligent posts regarding this issue. I thank you for them. Too bad there are so many blind haters in this world. I know that you knew that they would attack you here and you were right!

How very odd

[Canticle]

No Canticle, I love it when I can debate people like Heph who don't threaten me or make snide comments while saying they're leaving. If you're bowing out, then do so. I never asked you to. But I respected it enough not to take parting shots at you. You, however, just had to come back to take one at me.

Go along, Canticle. Don't you have a report to Drew to make?

Pasa

Umm...who threatened you.....certainly not me! I guess it's Ok for you to call someone a racist and also anti-semitic. You have no idea what my race is, or my religion (at least a religion, which would be associated with my family). Your childish one liner, at the end of this post says it all...at least it does for me.

I could report you for calling me a racist and anti-semitic, for that is a slur upon my character, but I shall not, because I believe you have the right to call me those vile titles, which are not true. I think that I can leave the rest of the good people, upon the site, to gauge from my many posts, that I am in no way racist, anti-semitic, nor am I intolerant of other religions or other belief systems, whatever they may be.

I may not agree with them, but I would defend the individual's or a group's right to exist, how he/she/they wish and without persecution, torture, death, discrimination etc, etc, etc.

I started out, as a Christian, 40 years ago and the spiritual journey never ends....it changes....takes a slightly different pathway....but it never ends and it allows one freedom of thought and freedom of the mind, heart and soul

[Pasadenacpl2]

I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?

US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military.

Correlation is a dangerous tool. Using correlation, one can show that there is an inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

Pasa

[chuck1124]

Pasa, as usual, your reply is right on the money. When you ask if Israel has a right to blockade in international waters, let me remind you all of history. In the 60's the US blockaded Cuba, when the Soviet Union was building missle installations there. The US Navy stopped and boarded Soviet ships and the UN and the world did not seem to have a problem. The feeling then was that the US had a right to defend itself from weapons only 90 miled from its border. How is the situation in Gaza any different? The Israelis boarded the ship armed with rubber bullets. The shooting occurred when the Israelis were attacked.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol pasa I will expand on that a lil....

I am ex military but I am not pro israel..... I do not see things in terms of country, but in terms of target and objective.....

while others see commandos and protesters, I actually see soft targets ( protestors ) and hard targets ( the attacking protestors )....

as a ex soldier, I would have reacted the same way as the commandos when faced with the same resistance, with the exception that I would have * put them down * ( non lethal leg shots but not the kneecaps ) and used lethal force as a last resort ( if anybody pulled out a gun, I would have used lethal force )

I was not trained to be a moral, ethical, decision making person, I was trained to go in and get the job done, without a conscience, and without showing what others see.... peaceful people on a aid mission or armed people intend on cracking my skull..... I would have treated everybody the same way.... as potential targets to subdue and remove resistance

[tenni]

Please note that it was a US citizen who has introduced the blockade of Cuba by the US. I'm only clarifying a perspective that he may have not been aware of or chosing to ignore this perspective. In no way do I mean to offend US people...not even those who are too blind to see. Ok..I get pissed off with people buying into stupid one sided propaganda...lol

I can agree with your view about the world standing by as the US blockaded Cuba. The blockade did nothing to resolve the conflict between Russia/Cuba and the US. A few years ago strangely the US thought that Russia should not be concerned when it wanted to put nukes in Czech etc. (oh that is different you were invited ya sure ...Cuba invited Russia to put missiles on its land as well...pfft)

However, I believe that Canadians were scared shitless to the point of building and practising getting in bomb shelters just as the Yanks did as well. Kids in Canada practised hiding under their desks at school in case this became a nuclear war between the US and Soviets. Now, it is known that was a totally useless thing to do if a nuke went off but it might have calmed the fears of the dumb masses.

We must also remember that the US sponsored Bay of Pigs invasion (April 17, 1961) that precipitated the need for Cuba to want missiles to protect themselves from further invasion from the US or US aggression. The blockade and Cuban Missile crisis was October 23, 1962 more than a year after the invasion of Cuba by the ex pat Cubans financially and CIA sponsored experts. I believe that it is now known that there have been many attempts by US sponsored CIA agents to try to kill Castro. The US was clearly the aggressor here by sponsoring the Bay of Pigs invasion of a sovereign neighbouring country and then keeping it secret for quite awhile. Cuba is still under an embargo by the US. It hasn't worked. Cuba is still communist and the US has not done a thing to get control back over Cuba for the fat and rich. So , the US won what with its blockade? The missiles were removed and a nuke war was avoided by a wiser Russia. Thanks for not blowing up our world..RUSSIA...not the foolish US government. It took 25 more years to stop the Cold War due to stupidity and fear on both sides.


I'm sure that kids in israel and Gaza are scared shitless or maybe they are accustomed to living under such fearful conditions that are probably worse than Canucks and Yank kids endured? The US blockade did nothing to long term resolve the problem. The fear and nonsense on both sides does parallel what is going on between Gaza and Israel. Both are not very productive ways of resolving conflict.

[tenni]

"US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military."

Yes, that is interesting Pasa. You are on to something...it isn't the geography as much as brainwashed former soldiers or you may see it more positively as having a clearer understanding of the situation due to your military experience. I would call it brainwashing of the poor citizens who have ended up in the military so that they still support killing and murder. Not all who have been in the military suffer from residule post military belief that violence is the best solution.


btw I am not a real pacifist or I do not see myself that way. I'm not pro war either unless you are invaded. I supported the US going after Bin Laden but not Iraq. I do not support Russia's actions in the Ukraine nor Chechnya. I do not support Hamas' terrorist acts but do support their right to be the government of Gaza.

[Canticle]

Is not a pacifist!

[Long Duck Dong]

"US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military."

Yes, that is interesting Pasa. You are on to something...it isn't the geography as much as brainwashed former soldiers or you may see it more positively as having a clearer understanding of the situation due to your military experience. I would call it brainwashing of the poor citizens who have ended up in the military so that they still support killing and murder. Not all who have been in the military suffer from residule post military belief that violence is the best solution.


btw I am not a real pacifist or I do not see myself that way. I'm not pro war either unless you are invaded. I supported the US going after Bin Laden but not Iraq. I do not support Russia's actions in the Ukraine nor Chechnya. I do not support Hamas' terrorist acts but do support their right to be the government of Gaza.


what you may or may not know, tenni, is a lot of soldiers are not brainwashed, they are natural born killers..... they already have the instincts and lack of conscience.....

in the army, the natural traits are honed to a high degree.... and that is where you gain the elite soldiers.... they are not brainwashed into following a cause, they are used as a means to a end, cos they have no conscience, no issues with taking a human life and they do not suffer the after effects that affect a lot of soldiers and other force personnel..... the issues of * omg, I have taken a human life *

they do not care about the mission or the debrief, they are happy to be in a natural environment that suits them down to the ground.... they are given a target and told to take it out... thats all they see and hear..... and thats all they care about......


when you take somebody like that, and you give them the skills and the abilities to become more effective, you can not untrain them, you can not deprogramme them...you can not turn them off.....
thats a fucked up way of thinking that the general public believes.....

there is a reason why a number of nam vets never came home..... they can not ever come home.... they are natural born killers, you would not be bringing them home, you would just be giving them a new killing field, your home town......

I notice that you constantly refer to people as brainwashed..... well, the truth about a lot of people is far from it..... including ex soldiers....

[coyotedude]

For those who haven't seen it, this op-ed piece in the New York Times is an interesting read on the whole topic of Israel and current events:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/opinion/10judt.html?ref=opinion

Peace

[Canticle]

For those who haven't seen it, this op-ed piece in the New York Times is an interesting read on the whole topic of Israel and current events:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/opinion/10judt.html?ref=opinion

Peace

A very interesting and intelligently written article.

Thank you for posting the link

[Hephaestion]

coyotedude http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/op...ml?ref=opinion

Interesting article. The worrying sentence is the one at the end

"......The time has come to cut through the clichés surrounding it, treat Israel like a “normal” state and sever the umbilical cord....."

To continue the analogy, I think that has already happened. It's just that the degree of breast feeding and maternal protection that has followed has convinced junior that there is invincibility in the world and that mummy will always be there to sort the problem out, regardless of junior's behaviour.

It is careful weaning that is required without losing the investment in the offrspring. Junior in turn must accept the realities and responsibilities in growing up.

.

[Hephaestion]

LDD - sadly there is much truth in what you say.

However, I feel that there has been an ommission. The other major goal in armed forces training is to introduce discipline. This is the governor and braking system on the 'machine'.

It is when this breaks down or is absent that one cannot turn off the 'dogs of war'. The question arises, should the susceptible ones continue / be kept in a controlled environment for fear of them harming others and / or themselves.

Essentially this is what this thread has been about. The brutalising (after) effects of war.

.

[69luvr]

Ok...if and when the US collapses as a super power due to fiscal mismanagement, depletion of natural resources(already happened) etc. and China or India become "the" super power, we will see how you react if you are blockaded. Until then, keep truck'n on as if being top of the heap will continue forever. Proclaim yourself as exporting freedom and democracy rather than oppressing and controlling other countries like any other "empire" country.

If the US ever does go down, who will Canada sell out to for protection? Who will protect it in time of war? They are incapable of protecting themselves and rely on America to save its sorry arse! I will bet that when the going gets tough, Canadians will cross the border in a vcery Mexican-like episode! Heck, they do it now for real medical care on a timely basis. Yet they carp about their socialized medicine as if it was great! Its not and neither is Canada's contributions to world peace! They are bunch of takers and backstabbers especially where America is concerned.

[tenni]

You're off topic but we were friends with China long before the US but I would say that things are not as good as they use to be. Russia is a neighbour as well via the arctic and North Pole. Until recently, we had not done anything that would make another country want to invade us.(going to Afghanistan to help our southern neighbour was a mistake in my opinion but we upheld NATO). We have been friends with Cuba for a long time. Perhaps we should invite Russia and China to do war games along the 49th parallel?. Things are not tough in Canada economically. Apparently, we have come out of the US generated global recession with our banking system and economy very strong compared to other G8 countries. There is no denying that Canada would be hurt if the US collapsed though. Otherwise, we would care less about our southern brothers and sisters.

uh...would you turn around so that I may be a backstabber..or would you rather that I hoof you in the nuts....:tongue: :bigrin:


If the US ever does go down, who will Canada sell out to for protection? Who will protect it in time of war? They are incapable of protecting themselves and rely on America to save its sorry arse! I will bet that when the going gets tough, Canadians will cross the border in a vcery Mexican-like episode! Heck, they do it now for real medical care on a timely basis. Yet they carp about their socialized medicine as if it was great! Its not and neither is Canada's contributions to world peace! They are bunch of takers and backstabbers especially where America is concerned.

[Pasadenacpl2]

You don't need to do anything to have people want to invade, Tenni. And that's really the point. Being nice doesn't really garner much in global politics. Canada has rich natural resources. Resources that will become scarce in the coming years. Resources, btw, that China and Russia distinctly lack. Who will protect you when they want more of those resources than you are willing to sell/give?

Also, who will protect you when they want to use Canada as a staging ground to attack the US? If you think Russia and Canada wouldn't rather use Canada as their battleground than their home turf, or even than the US itself, then you're naieve. Screwing up Canada in a bid to get the US (with even richer resources) only makes sense from both a tactical and strategic standpoint.

Also, since you brought it up, I notice that the Candadian economy isn't doing so well as you say. They are even concerned that the universal healthcare system is going to go broke in less than 5 years if you don't adopt a different model according to the articles released from your government last week.

Yes, off topic. But, worthwhile to reinforce the point that Canada basically has no worries because the US takes on those worries for them. It's not you being nice that protects you. It's that no one wants to take us on to get to you. If we decide that we don't care enough anymore, and decide to become isolationist, Canada loses that protection.

The other worthwhile point to make is that Tenni is in the vast minority of people that I speak to from Canada. I'm on probably 8 or 10 forums that have Canadian posters, and I see a large group of Canadians every year at one of my national conventions in New Mexico that they travel to. So, this isn't my only exposure to Canadian thought. In fact, of the Canadians I talk to, he's the only America hater, and the only one that spews such vitriol about the US.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

what you may or may not know, tenni, is a lot of soldiers are not brainwashed, they are natural born killers..... they already have the instincts and lack of conscience.....

in the army, the natural traits are honed to a high degree.... and that is where you gain the elite soldiers.... they are not brainwashed into following a cause, they are used as a means to a end, cos they have no conscience, no issues with taking a human life and they do not suffer the after effects that affect a lot of soldiers and other force personnel..... the issues of * omg, I have taken a human life *

they do not care about the mission or the debrief, they are happy to be in a natural environment that suits them down to the ground.... they are given a target and told to take it out... thats all they see and hear..... and thats all they care about......


when you take somebody like that, and you give them the skills and the abilities to become more effective, you can not untrain them, you can not deprogramme them...you can not turn them off.....
thats a fucked up way of thinking that the general public believes.....

there is a reason why a number of nam vets never came home..... they can not ever come home.... they are natural born killers, you would not be bringing them home, you would just be giving them a new killing field, your home town......

I notice that you constantly refer to people as brainwashed..... well, the truth about a lot of people is far from it..... including ex soldiers....


LDD

I think the vets you describe are, at least currently, a small minority. Most vets are pretty well balanced, and there are significant psych services for all of them, not just the ones that show outwardly that there is trouble.

I don't know many vets who are brainwashed, as Tenni claims. Most of them have a far deeper and better understanding of world events than those who haven't served, mostly due to seeing the effect of policy first hand (and being that hand, more often than not).

The military doesn't brainwash. In fact, brainwashing is counterproductive to military efficiency. The days of dumb grunts are long gone. Military members are highly trained, and more often than not, highly trained with multibillion dollar equipment that requires a high degree of decision making skills as well as technical skills to operate and service.

More and more, military units are given objectives and then allowed to accomplish the mission in the manner they best see fit once they have boots on the ground. This requires a high degree of self determination, and a high level of problem solving, as they have a variety of choices up to them within the given mission parameters.

It is cliche to consider military as dumb jocks brainwashed to only ask how high when a sergeant tells them to jump. I think it's excusable coming from people whos only brush with the military has been to enjoy the protection they provide. It is comments borne of ignorance, rather than arrogance. Otherwise it would be insulting.

Pasa

[tenni]

If this was not way off topic, I would comment. I have no idea how we got here except that I may have made a reference to some US metaphor to attempt to get Pasa aware about what he was writing. A possible reason why you meet Canadians who do not spew "vitriol" as you write, is that they may just be more polite than me. Most Canadians love US citizens that is true. Some of us tell you how we see things while others remain politey quite. If these Canadians were from Alberta or the prairie provinces they do tend to think along the line of what I read from people from your state. So , Canada's economy is not doing well? Well those bastard Cons in government ...I knew that they were lying...lol See, government propaganda is not exclusive to your country Pasa...:) The Cons are telling us as are our Bankers that we are doing so much better than the other G8 countries. We are out of the recession supposedly. No problem with out banking system either...supposedly...why those liars....lol

DAmn I commented...lol



You don't need to do anything to have people want to invade, Tenni. And that's really the point. Being nice doesn't really garner much in global politics. Canada has rich natural resources. Resources that will become scarce in the coming years. Resources, btw, that China and Russia distinctly lack. Who will protect you when they want more of those resources than you are willing to sell/give?

Also, who will protect you when they want to use Canada as a staging ground to attack the US? If you think Russia and Canada wouldn't rather use Canada as their battleground than their home turf, or even than the US itself, then you're naieve. Screwing up Canada in a bid to get the US (with even richer resources) only makes sense from both a tactical and strategic standpoint.

Also, since you brought it up, I notice that the Candadian economy isn't doing so well as you say. They are even concerned that the universal healthcare system is going to go broke in less than 5 years if you don't adopt a different model according to the articles released from your government last week.

Yes, off topic. But, worthwhile to reinforce the point that Canada basically has no worries because the US takes on those worries for them. It's not you being nice that protects you. It's that no one wants to take us on to get to you. If we decide that we don't care enough anymore, and decide to become isolationist, Canada loses that protection.

The other worthwhile point to make is that Tenni is in the vast minority of people that I speak to from Canada. I'm on probably 8 or 10 forums that have Canadian posters, and I see a large group of Canadians every year at one of my national conventions in New Mexico that they travel to. So, this isn't my only exposure to Canadian thought. In fact, of the Canadians I talk to, he's the only America hater, and the only one that spews such vitriol about the US.

Pasa

[tenni]

I have not been in the military. I think that we are all exposed to our government's propaganda and that includes me. It is that type of brainwashing that I am referring to. How many killer soldiers that are in any military is an interesting topic. For all we know, some Israeli soldier may be a born killer and started the shooting. We probably will never know as Israel would not admit such a person being in their military...probably ..go ahead Israel prove me wrong...lol

I do think that there is something that goes in any group of men who are under strong pressure in a military situation. The top of society's intelligent citizens rarely end up as privates in a military unless they are conscripted. I believe that military service is compulsory in Israel for both men and women. So there may be both intelligent soldiers and born killers? If anyone watched the video of soldiers killing civilians in Iraq on youtube, it is hard to believe that something strange was going on within the soldiers' minds during the shootings..adrenaline...testosterone?.

As I initially wrote, I knew that Pasa would see this differently. He has written similar thoughts about his military experience. He would know how beneficial that it was for him to be in the military. Unlike Pasa, I reserve judgement as to blame. Sorry Pasa it is your written words that make me read you as a rather potentially violent man who may have been affected negatively by his military services and brainwashing or whatever we wish to call it(military training). If it isn't by the US military something else in your societal experience makes you perceive the world differently from those that you accuss of being pacifists. On the good side, I also see you as a very good man who is quite honourable. Funny too. I know that it doesn't matter to you but I like you ...except when you post such a violent perception of the world.

Pasa, you are quite correct that I have not had a lot of contact with military persons other than my cousin who was a very high ranking person in the Canadian military. I've posted before that he became a victim of PTSD in the Gulf War. During his military career, he was a very different person from before and after. He was very reserved and closed mouth..maybe because he was holding so many military secrets?..dunno. We have different perceptions due to our experiences. You may be correct but why do you post what seem to be rather aggressive and violently tending posts about the "bad" guys?


LDD

I think the vets you describe are, at least currently, a small minority. Most vets are pretty well balanced, and there are significant psych services for all of them, not just the ones that show outwardly that there is trouble.

I don't know many vets who are brainwashed, as Tenni claims. Most of them have a far deeper and better understanding of world events than those who haven't served, mostly due to seeing the effect of policy first hand (and being that hand, more often than not).

The military doesn't brainwash. In fact, brainwashing is counterproductive to military efficiency. The days of dumb grunts are long gone. Military members are highly trained, and more often than not, highly trained with multibillion dollar equipment that requires a high degree of decision making skills as well as technical skills to operate and service.

More and more, military units are given objectives and then allowed to accomplish the mission in the manner they best see fit once they have boots on the ground. This requires a high degree of self determination, and a high level of problem solving, as they have a variety of choices up to them within the given mission parameters.

It is cliche to consider military as dumb jocks brainwashed to only ask how high when a sergeant tells them to jump. I think it's excusable coming from people whos only brush with the military has been to enjoy the protection they provide. It is comments borne of ignorance, rather than arrogance. Otherwise it would be insulting.

Pasa

[Canticle]

LDD

I think the vets you describe are, at least currently, a small minority. Most vets are pretty well balanced, and there are significant psych services for all of them, not just the ones that show outwardly that there is trouble.

I don't know many vets who are brainwashed, as Tenni claims. Most of them have a far deeper and better understanding of world events than those who haven't served, mostly due to seeing the effect of policy first hand (and being that hand, more often than not).

The military doesn't brainwash. In fact, brainwashing is counterproductive to military efficiency. The days of dumb grunts are long gone. Military members are highly trained, and more often than not, highly trained with multibillion dollar equipment that requires a high degree of decision making skills as well as technical skills to operate and service.

More and more, military units are given objectives and then allowed to accomplish the mission in the manner they best see fit once they have boots on the ground. This requires a high degree of self determination, and a high level of problem solving, as they have a variety of choices up to them within the given mission parameters.

It is cliche to consider military as dumb jocks brainwashed to only ask how high when a sergeant tells them to jump. I think it's excusable coming from people whos only brush with the military has been to enjoy the protection they provide. It is comments borne of ignorance, rather than arrogance. Otherwise it would be insulting.

Pasa

I am going to have to agree with you here, Pasa....basically.

In the UK our armed forces are not seen a killing machines, but professionals doing a professional job.One which they joined the army, navy, airforce, to do. Highly trained and using sophisticated eqipment, many, many of these men and women are extremely skilled people. They are there to help out, if there are peace time disasters, or if they are called upon, by their country, to serve in an armed conflict. They don't consider themselves heroes or heroines. They are just doing the job, for which they have been trained. others call them heroic. The forces are far more modest.

As with any organisation, institution, profession, there will always be those who become damaged, either by the war situation, or by being the wrong type for the Services. If any member of the armed forces, gets out of control, theythen become a liability to themself, their colleagues and to civilians and none of us, need to have been in the forces, to realise that.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I am a potentially violent man. This is true. I blieve that safety is obtained through he projection force. This is true for nations ad well ad individuals. I do not trust that the government's pojecgion of force is enough
to kep me safe. So, I am willing to project force enough to ensure that I am not considered an easy target for thieves, mugers or vandals. I project enough willingness go use force that peol who would otherwise attempt to bully a weaker person wilo instead be polite. Further, I fully believe ghat an armed society is a polite society.

My willingmds to use force, however is preventative in nature. I am willing to use force, and I exude that willingness. It means that some problms seem to solve themselves. Peopl are much more willing to work with me once they get it. I have very rarely used violence. But pople just seem to know hat I've already decided that I'm willing to. Once you've decided that, hesitation is gone and you are almos talways at least astep ahead of everyone else.

I am also very funny and have wonderful singing voice.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I am a potentially violent man. This is true. I blieve that safety is obtained through he projection force. This is true for nations ad well ad individuals. I do not trust that the government's pojecgion of force is enough
to kep me safe. So, I am willing to project force enough to ensure that I am not considered an easy target for thieves, mugers or vandals. I project enough willingness go use force that peol who would otherwise attempt to bully a weaker person wilo instead be polite. Further, I fully believe ghat an armed society is a polite society.

My willingmds to use force, however is preventative in nature. I am willing to use force, and I exude that willingness. It means that some problms seem to solve themselves. Peopl are much more willing to work with me once they get it. I have very rarely used violence. But pople just seem to know hat I've already decided that I'm willing to. Once you've decided that, hesitation is gone and you are almos talways at least astep ahead of everyone else.

I am also very funny and have wonderful singing voice.

Pasa

Scratches my head.......

What's all that got to do with the subject matter? The content, I'll refrain from commenting upon.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It was a direct reply to Tenni. So, ask him. And I'll apologize for the horrendous spelling in that post. It was sent via my phone.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I have not been in the military. I think that we are all exposed to our government's propaganda and that includes me. It is that type of brainwashing that I am referring to. How many killer soldiers that are in any military is an interesting topic. For all we know, some Israeli soldier may be a born killer and started the shooting. We probably will never know as Israel would not admit such a person being in their military...probably ..go ahead Israel prove me wrong...lol

I do think that there is something that goes in any group of men who are under strong pressure in a military situation. The top of society's intelligent citizens rarely end up as privates in a military unless they are conscripted. I believe that military service is compulsory in Israel for both men and women. So there may be both intelligent soldiers and born killers? If anyone watched the video of soldiers killing civilians in Iraq on youtube, it is hard to believe that something strange was going on within the soldiers' minds during the shootings..adrenaline...testosterone?.

As I initially wrote, I knew that Pasa would see this differently. He has written similar thoughts about his military experience. He would know how beneficial that it was for him to be in the military. Unlike Pasa, I reserve judgement as to blame. Sorry Pasa it is your written words that make me read you as a rather potentially violent man who may have been affected negatively by his military services and brainwashing or whatever we wish to call it(military training). If it isn't by the US military something else in your societal experience makes you perceive the world differently from those that you accuss of being pacifists. On the good side, I also see you as a very good man who is quite honourable. Funny too. I know that it doesn't matter to you but I like you ...except when you post such a violent perception of the world.

Pasa, you are quite correct that I have not had a lot of contact with military persons other than my cousin who was a very high ranking person in the Canadian military. I've posted before that he became a victim of PTSD in the Gulf War. During his military career, he was a very different person from before and after. He was very reserved and closed mouth..maybe because he was holding so many military secrets?..dunno. We have different perceptions due to our experiences. You may be correct but why do you post what seem to be rather aggressive and violently tending posts about the "bad" guys?


You get plenty of highly intelligent people serving in the ranks.

[tenni]

Pasa
I'm not sure how to connect this to the thread but I have to write that you perception of the world and how to go through life is not my thoughts at all. I wonder when I compare what you write to what your country and Israel do if there might be a connection as to how all three face life and the world?

I have no reason to project force in order to have safety in the community that I live in. You and the two countries seem to function on the basis of fear of threats towards you? You believe that there is a need to project force or actually use force in order to survive in the world. I will not write that you are wrong though. It just is not my world. I live in a community where there has been one murder in ten years. That was the result of teen boys fighting and one dying from the fight using their fists. No guns are used where I live. I have no need to project force by owning one let alone using it. I lock my front door but leave the garage and back door unlocked 24/7 and have since I moved here. In neighbouring larger cities there is more danger and some gun killings with illegal guns from your country or stolen from collectors but generally very few for the population size. I have no fear when I walk the streets of Toronto. I will admit that I believe that some ethnic youth may hold a similar view to you.

Israel has lived so long in fear that they may have a perspective like your own.




I am a potentially violent man. This is true. I blieve that safety is obtained through he projection force. This is true for nations ad well ad individuals. I do not trust that the government's pojecgion of force is enough
to kep me safe. So, I am willing to project force enough to ensure that I am not considered an easy target for thieves, mugers or vandals. I project enough willingness go use force that peol who would otherwise attempt to bully a weaker person wilo instead be polite. Further, I fully believe ghat an armed society is a polite society.

My willingmds to use force, however is preventative in nature. I am willing to use force, and I exude that willingness. It means that some problms seem to solve themselves. Peopl are much more willing to work with me once they get it. I have very rarely used violence. But pople just seem to know hat I've already decided that I'm willing to. Once you've decided that, hesitation is gone and you are almos talways at least astep ahead of everyone else.

I am also very funny and have wonderful singing voice.

Pasa

[boca.openminded]

Canticle:

"how i hate men telling me what to do"


so its obvious you are just here to cause a fight or hear yourself talk. I am telling you that you are talking stupid that has NOTHING to do with the topic.

Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.


Wow, another stupid (yes I said stupid) comment that has nothing to do with the topic... You sound like a child.

In conclusion, I have read most of your posts in this thread and others and I find your comments to be without merit and just argumentative. I hope others read my post and come to the same conclusion that this person is ONLY here to create a stir...

[boca.openminded]

I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?

Hey moron : we ALL admit that Israel made a mistake. They were trigger happy and acted incorrectly but they had every right to investigate ships in the area. Israel has proof that in the past ships are bringing weapons into Gaza disguised as a relief / aide ship.

As someone stated earlier, what you are being attacked on a daily basis it makes you shoot first & ask questions later.

Does that make it right? Absolutely NO... They definitely were at fault and need to redo their procedures for investigating ships in the Gaza. They will correct this but this never would have happened if not for prior actions of the Palestinians.

The area is a total mess and the only way any peace will be brought to the region is if the Palestinians do away with Hammas. Instead they are too scared to go against them therefore a member of the Hammas was voted into office.

People need to understand that Israel is not fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting Hammas!

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa
I'm not sure how to connect this to the thread but I have to write that you perception of the world and how to go through life is not my thoughts at all. I wonder when I compare what you write to what your country and Israel do if there might be a connection as to how all three face life and the world?

It was in direct response to your comments. You keep going off topic, I respond, and then you ask why I'm going off topic. It's a funny game you play.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Canticle:

"how i hate men telling me what to do"


so its obvious you are just here to cause a fight or hear yourself talk. I am telling you that you are talking stupid that has NOTHING to do with the topic.

Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.


Wow, another stupid (yes I said stupid) comment that has nothing to do with the topic... You sound like a child.

In conclusion, I have read most of your posts in this thread and others and I find your comments to be without merit and just argumentative. I hope others read my post and come to the same conclusion that this person is ONLY here to create a stir...

Hmmm. Well, Sir, you would be wrong. I am not here to cause a fight, or merely ''hear myself speak.'' What a ridiculous comment to make. Whatever you said.....and it must have been way back and I am not going to plough through all of the posts.....my comment...idea...view....would have been mine and mine alone and my opinion.

You obviously have no sense of humour.

''how i hate men telling me what to do"

That is my humour and even a serious subject can have a little levity added. If you don't understand my humour.....tough......and guess what...I am far from stupid and I don't make stupid comments. If you don't like what I say, that is your problem, not mine.

''Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.''

If I hear the President of Iran say certain things....then I will be able to comment that ''Yes, Iran has said that.'' However, I haven't and although I feel the same as many people, about such regimes as the Iranian one, I am not going to put words into mouths, unless I have heard them myself.

The USA has done many reprehensible things. So has the UK. So has Germany. So has Russia and the rest of what used to be the Soviet Union. So has China. So has Japan. We could go on forever listing countries and what the various Governments and Regimes have done, throughout history.

The USA is not perfect. Nowhere is. The State of Israel, most certainly, is not and neither are it's Arab and Non-Arab neighbours.

''In conclusion, I have read most of your posts in this thread and others and I find your comments to be without merit and just argumentative. I hope others read my post and come to the same conclusion that this person is ONLY here to create a stir...''

Thank you for reading most of my posts and thank you for finding most of them without merit. And this is meant to affect me......how? Because I don't agree with the Americans who have posted, I am argumentative? If that is how you/they feel.....then the comments I have made and the comments that others have made, must have hit a raw nerve. Not my/their problem.

I am a wordy person.....Sorry about that, but I'm not going to change. I am here to cause a stir and only to cause a stir? How silly and how wrong you are. Would you like to shut up, all those people who do not agree with you or the other pro Israeli people who have posted?? I would feel exactly the same about things, if it was a small country called Israel, being blockaded by a larger country called Palestine.

You have been insulting and I would say ''flamed,'' me. I have been insulting to absolutely no one and yet, I have been called racist, anti-semitic and also lacking intelligence.

You, Sir, do not know, what you are talking about.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni,

You must live in a Utopia. In my experience, people suck. And people generally follow the rules due to only two things: 1. A small minority follow rules because it's the right thing to do. 2. Everyone else who follows rules does so because if they don't they will get their penis smacked either by the government, the community, or a person.

People, communities, societies, and governments all project force. Force can take different forms and formats. Societies normally only project force through peer pressure and social intimidation. Governments do everything through the threat of taking away your money or your freedom if you don't comply. Individuals either project force through being powerful in the community (to bring social pressure) or through physicality. I use both, actually.

If you live in a community that has no crime, it's not because people are nice. Force is being applied in an effective manner. And that's good.

I'm betting that you don't live in a place where there are many people who don't look like you, or where economic pressures don't force people of varying SocioEconomicStati together. I'm betting you live in a nice, middle class white suburb. I'm betting you've pretty much always lived there.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Hey moron : we ALL admit that Israel made a mistake. They were trigger happy and acted incorrectly but they had every right to investigate ships in the area. Israel has proof that in the past ships are bringing weapons into Gaza disguised as a relief / aide ship.

As someone stated earlier, what you are being attacked on a daily basis it makes you shoot first & ask questions later.

Does that make it right? Absolutely NO... They definitely were at fault and need to redo their procedures for investigating ships in the Gaza. They will correct this but this never would have happened if not for prior actions of the Palestinians.

The area is a total mess and the only way any peace will be brought to the region is if the Palestinians do away with Hammas. Instead they are too scared to go against them therefore a member of the Hammas was voted into office.

People need to understand that Israel is not fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting Hammas!

Tenni is no moron and you have deliberately flamed him in this post. Tenni is an extremely intelligent man and makes many fine comments. You may find posts without merit, but this post quoted here, has no merit at all. None whatsoever. It's just insulting.

[Canticle]

Tenni,

You must live in a Utopia. In my experience, people suck. And people generally follow the rules due to only two things: 1. A small minority follow rules because it's the right thing to do. 2. Everyone else who follows rules does so because if they don't they will get their penis smacked either by the government, the community, or a person.

People, communities, societies, and governments all project force. Force can take different forms and formats. Societies normally only project force through peer pressure and social intimidation. Governments do everything through the threat of taking away your money or your freedom if you don't comply. Individuals either project force through being powerful in the community (to bring social pressure) or through physicality. I use both, actually.

If you live in a community that has no crime, it's not because people are nice. Force is being applied in an effective manner. And that's good.

I'm betting that you don't live in a place where there are many people who don't look like you, or where economic pressures don't force people of varying SocioEconomicStati together. I'm betting you live in a nice, middle class white suburb. I'm betting you've pretty much always lived there.

Pasa

Unbelievable! No, unfortunately this comment is totally believeable

[Pasadenacpl2]

Of course is. It's pretty much text book Political Science 101.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Of course is. It's pretty much text book Political Science 101.

Pasa

Again, Pasa, you misunderstand. I meant your comments.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't misunderstand. I understand you just fine. My only question is, do you have a point? Or are you reduced to one liners and useless commentary with no content?

Pasa

[hardnbubbly]

Another video surfaced yesterday it seems. Showing an Israeli soldier shooting an activist while one his knees and killing him... I wonder how they will explain this as self defence.

Probably killed in cross fire form activists shooting at the soldiers.

[Canticle]

I don't misunderstand. I understand you just fine. My only question is, do you have a point? Or are you reduced to one liners and useless commentary with no content?

Pasa

No Pasa, you do misunderstand me.

One line can sometimes mean far more than a book of words.

You will not agree with those of us, who criticise Israel. You never will. And I think that you would probably disagree, on principle.

I don't put my country and it's government's policies and actions, before my own beliefs, principles and convictions. However, I do believe that some people, decide what to believe, because of the foreign policy, of their country's government.

Critics of the state of Israel, seem to see things, that pro Israel people refuse to acknowledge. It's not a matter of race, or religion. It's about a country's arrogance and attitude and ever growing arrogance and attitude, despite some of it's own citizens being critical.

It's not about a holy land, holy for one people. It's about the land belonging to all and how a people were cruelly exiled from their homelands and an artificially created land allowed to grow and prosper, whilst another group had to live in refugee camps.

Israel exists and is not going to go away. The surrounding countries need to recognise this, but Israel needs to understand, that it is not a chosen nation, but just one of many countries upon this planet and it needs to stop stealing land, take down a wall, built across the land and come to some agreement with the other countries, including Gaza. Remember, Palestinians are both Christian and Muslim.

Unfortunately, any agreements, treaties and peace, are not going to come for a long, long time and most definitely not, if Israel continues it's blockade of Gaza and other types of behaviour. The same goes for Gaza. Things need to change, but there ain't gonna be any messiah coming down from the skies, to put things right, it has to be done by all the different countries, of this world.

The blockade is wrong and anti-humanitarian and the boarding of the aid vessels, and what subsequently happened, was piracy and an act of war. It WAS wrong.

[Long Duck Dong]

Another video surfaced yesterday it seems. Showing an Israeli soldier shooting an activist while one his knees and killing him... I wonder how they will explain this as self defence.

Probably killed in cross fire form activists shooting at the soldiers.

but what led up to the shooting......????

its easy to view a video and say, omg the israeli soldier killed a person on their knees......
but I am the type of person that wants to know why the shot was fired......

you need to remember that protestors threw a commando over the side of the ship to a lower deck...... witnessing that is enuf to trigger a revenge style reaction in a soldier.... as the soldier would have seen a act of attempted murder.......

now I am not defending israel or the soldiers actions but giving a insight as to what can be going thru a soldiers mind.....
its the same pattern of thinking that would go thru a mans mind if he sees his child killed or somebody act in a deliberate manner to end his child life.....

that aside..... shooting a person on their knees, that is unarmed and subdued.... is nothing short of a execution, regardless of the reasoning......

the protester sounds to have been disarmed and subdued, offering no resistance and a non threatening noncom, they are covered under the geneva convention.... if the soldier was in my platoon, the soldier would have ended up in a body bag.... cos I would have shot them myself

[Pasadenacpl2]

No Pasa, you do misunderstand me.

One line can sometimes mean far more than a book of words.



And none of that had anything to do with what I was saying, at all. You butted into a conversation Tenni and I were having, rolled your eyes, and when I called you on it, went off on a tangent. Are you able to focus?

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

The blockade is wrong and anti-humanitarian and the boarding of the aid vessels, and what subsequently happened, was piracy and an act of war. It WAS wrong.

bullshit..... show me in the international maritime statues that it was a act of piracy and war...... and yes I have posted the link to the statues in this thread.... I will even repost it for you
international humanitarian law (http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture

the mavi marmara was flying the flag of turkey.... a neutral country


On 31 May 2010, while en route to Gaza, commandos from the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) boarded the MV Mavi Marmara in international waters after communicating warnings that a naval blockade of the Gaza area was in force. In the violent clash that followed, nine activists were killed and several dozen activists and ten IDF soldiers were injured.

[Hephaestion]

that aside..... shooting a person on their knees, that is unarmed and subdued.... is nothing short of a execution, regardless of the reasoning......

the protester sounds to have been disarmed and subdued, offering no resistance and a non threatening noncom, they are covered under the geneva convention.... if the soldier was in my platoon, the soldier would have ended up in a body bag.... cos I would have shot them myself


Laudable LDD - the soldier gives an example of breakdown in discipline.




but what led up to the shooting......????

A misplaced and botched military operation whatever the arguments. (#398 above noted)

[tenni]

hardnbubbly
Thanks for the information in your post #394. If I understand you the victim was on his knees when shot by an Israeli soldier. What was the source where you learned about this video?


In post #326, Heph points out the following as the position of the US government.
"0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:
a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN"


To Pasa and those who support the Israeli soldiers murdering of these activists

Since you all seem to be from the USA, your government is telling you that it disagrees with you. I don't think that there has been significant discussion on this. When combined with the video showing an Israeli soldier killing an activist on his knees, those who continue to defend Israel in this situation, should be rethinking their position. Instead they make accusations about other posters intelligence or other such distractive attempts. I am wondering if we will read words to the sort that the US government is wrong and Obama attacks, etc.?

If Israel refuses to permit the UN to investigate this situation and turn over all video footage,this will not ease the tensions in the middle east. All comments about Israel needing to defend itself with force and this blockade, increases the need for the UN and the US to act. As a key financial supporter, the US should cut off financial aid to Israel but I doubt that will happen. If it doesn't, it demonstates the problem.

The question is what should the world do as a reaction to Israel's actions? Should there be consequences against Israel. Will the US send war ships to protect the promised four hundred dollar aid package for Gazans? Will Israel back down? I doubt that it would stop a US cargo ship with aid for Gaza. I'm sure that it is practising its dance steps on this one.

Signed
The moron :)

Canticle
Thanks for your kind words in post #389

[rayjamesus]

'Most conquered land is handed back these days. This is the 21st century, not the 18th.
This is the only point I'm going to make, ya it is given back but you don't have to take East Germany for example how long did they have to go before they got their land back. And that's all I'm going to say. Oh and I do think that a creation of a state for the Jews was in need after all WWII was not the first time the Jews were hunted down and murdered in Europe. Look at all the crusades Germany has always had it out for the Jews.

[Canticle]

And none of that had anything to do with what I was saying, at all. You butted into a conversation Tenni and I were having, rolled your eyes, and when I called you on it, went off on a tangent. Are you able to focus?

Pasa

Hmmmmmm.....and there was I, thinking that this was an open forum.........

I often go off on a tangent.......Charlotte Bronte used to do the same thing.......but I don't think that I did.

Guess what, Pasa, I am well able to focus.......so much so, that I am usually very efficient and able to do certain things, extremely well. Focus is needed...and discipline, in many areas of life. I know a few people, who are most undisciplined. I am not one of them.

[DareMe]

Wasn't the convoy in International Waters at the time of the boarding? Why didn't the Israelis wait until they convoy was in territorial waters before acting if they had legitimate concerns? As it was, it was an illegal act.

The surrounding islamic countries now have world opinion on their side 'on humanitarian grounds'.

Yesterday Turkey was reported to have said that it would be sending an escorting military vessel with the next convoy.

In terms of strategy the Israelis scored the perfect own goal.


.

In terms of international law, Gaza is not a country therefore has no Territorial waters.

Gaza Shares a big border with Egypt. It would have been very easy to go through Egypt. But of course, it would not have been as sensational as Israel commandos boarding a peaceful ship. remember the ship that carried This whole affair is a ploy.

The funny thing about all of this is that nothing was said about North Korea that sank a south Korean ship last march 26. more than 40 sailors died.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/25/AR2010042503113.html

Why did Israel board the ship? because it has no choice. Many ships have been caught in the past carrying arms.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125732536158927651.html


Why can't we all just get along!



DM

[Canticle]

bullshit..... show me in the international maritime statues that it was a act of piracy and war...... and yes I have posted the link to the statues in this thread.... I will even repost it for you
international humanitarian law (http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture

the mavi marmara was flying the flag of turkey.... a neutral country


On 31 May 2010, while en route to Gaza, commandos from the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) boarded the MV Mavi Marmara in international waters after communicating warnings that a naval blockade of the Gaza area was in force. In the violent clash that followed, nine activists were killed and several dozen activists and ten IDF soldiers were injured.


Not bullshit and I stand by my opinion. I didn't see that link, before this post. Sorry about that, You missed quite a bit out. I think, from what I read, on the link, that far more than this small piece you have copied and pasted, does apply, to what went on in international waters.

Perhaps all posting here, should re-read the bits about what happens at sea. Each single section. We know what happened. Telling, isn't it, that 9 humanitarian people, lost their lives, many injured. No Israeli forces killed, only injured, in an operation, which took place at night, upon the high seas, in international waters. Hardly a friendly, board and search, party, if helicopers land troops upon ships in the dead of night, whilst surrounding those ships, with other, seafaring vehicles, which are also armed to the teeth.

You missed out quite a bit, with your cut and paste. I'll just cut and paste the titles of the various sections.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
Full text [Display Introduction] [Display articles]

PART I : GENERAL PROVISIONS

SECTION I : SCOPE OF APPLICATION OF THE LAW
SECTION II : ARMED CONFLICTS AND THE LAW OF SELF-DEFENCE
SECTION III : ARMED CONFLICTS IN WHICH THE SECURITY COUNCIL HAS TAKEN ACTION
SECTION IV : AREAS OF NAVAL WARFARE
SECTION V : DEFINITIONS

PART II : REGIONS OF OPERATIONS

SECTION I : INTERNAL WATERS, TERRITORIAL SEA AND ACHIPELAGIC WATERS
SECTION II : INTERNATIONAL STRAITS AND ARCHIPELAGIC SEA LANES
General rules
SECTION III : EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE AND CONTINENTAL SHELF
SECTION IV : HIGH SEAS AND SEA-BED BEYOND NATIONAL JURISDICTION

PART III : BASIC RULES AND TARGET DISCRIMINATION

SECTION I : BASIC RULES
SECTION II : PRECAUTIONS IN ATTACK
SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK
SECTION IV : OTHER ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
SECTION VI : PRECAUTIONS REGARDING CIVIL AIRCRAFT

PART IV : METHODS AND MEANS OF WARFARE AT SEA

SECTION I : MEANS OF WARFARE
SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE
SECTION III : DECEPTION, RUSES OF WAR AND PERFIDY

PART V : MEASURES SHORT OF ATTACK: INTERCEPTION, VISIT, SEARCH, DIVERSION AND CAPTURE

SECTION I :DETERMINATION OF ENEMY CHARACTER OF VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT
SECTION II : VISIT AND SEARCH OF MERCHANT VESSELS
SECTION III : INTERCEPTION, VISIT AND SEARCH OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT
SECTION IV : CAPTURE OF ENEMY VESSELS AND GOODS
SECTION V : CAPTURE OF ENEMY CIVIL AIRCRAFT AND GOODS
SECTION VI : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND GOODS
SECTION VII : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL CIVIL AIRCRAFT AND GOODS

PART VI : PROTECTED PERSONS, MEDICAL TRANSPORTS AND MEDICAL
AIRCRAFT
GENERAL RULES

SECTION I : PROTECTED PERSONS
SECTION II : MEDICAL TRANSPORTS
SECTION III : MEDICAL AIRCRAFT

You cut and pasted one small piece of that document. I have read it and there seem to be many sub-sections, which could be applied to the delivering of humanitarian aid and to the interception of ships upon the high seas, in international waters. Each part, section and sub-section of the document needs to be read. This area is not black and white. There are many shades of grey.

Plus, the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Is it just a sea blockade? Or is this an air and land blockade, also? If so, and if countries and organisations, decide to fly in aid and refuse to land, if ordered to by the Israelis, with Isaraei airforce fighter planes, shoot the such planes, out of the sky.

If Egypt decides to fully open it's border with Gaza, allow ships and planes to land aid in Egypt, so that it can be taken across the border by land, will the Israeli Government, see this as breaking their blockade of Gaza and therefore decide to invade Egypt. After all, they haven't thought it was wrong to invade Lebanon and purely for the sake of Israel....not the Lebanese.

I still say it was piracy and an act of war.

[Canticle]

This is the only point I'm going to make, ya it is given back but you don't have to take East Germany for example how long did they have to go before they got their land back. And that's all I'm going to say. Oh and I do think that a creation of a state for the Jews was in need after all WWII was not the first time the Jews were hunted down and murdered in Europe. Look at all the crusades Germany has always had it out for the Jews.

I'm sorry rayjamesus, but I do not see the significance of the link, which you posted. However as that link is on your profile, I assume there must be a valid reason.

I think that most people understand how germany was separated, after WWII and how whole families were unable to see their relatives, for many, many years. All sides wanted a piece of the cake and I think that there was also a fear, that a united Germany, could once again become very powerful and pose a threat to world peace. The Soviet Union wanted its pound of flesh and also to get a boot, not a toe, into the West. As things do, though, it came full circle and the Communist states crumbled. But, heck...that is a whole history book in itself.

Many people died at the hands of the Nazis and over 55 million people died in WWII. I don't think that the holocaust, was a good enough excuse, for artificially creating a state of Isarel and displacing thousands of Palestinians, from their homelands.

That the state of Israel exists and should be recognised, by all states, is without question. What can be questioned and criticised, is how that state behaves. If everyother state on the planet can be criticised and condemned, for the things that go on within those countries and what they do elsewhere, then no exception should be made, where Israel is concerned.

The Jewish race have been persecuted throughout history. Jews have been massacred....at different points in history and in many different countries and they have also been exiled from the countries they settled in. It's never been right, but when we are talking about massacres and exiles, from a few hundred years ago, we tend to look at them in that historical manner, which we cannot, when learning about what happened in Europe, in the 1930s and 40s. Over 60 years ago, it may well be, but it is still a raw wound. Maybe it should always be that way.

I have read about Stalin and watched documentaries about him and his rule of the Soviet Union. It is said that his rule of that collection of states, led to
the killing of far more people, than the Nazis, were guilty of deliberately exterminating.

Unfortunately, it is too easy to bandy numbers about. Millions died in the wars and peace of the 20th century. No doubt, similar things will happen in the 21st century. Indeed, they already are. We've all heard about the deaths at Darfur, how a once wealthy and prosperous Zimbabwe, has been brought to its knees by the ruling regime and so it goes on.....and on and yet, always.....it is the Middle East which is mentioned.

Liquid gold....oil.....the wealthy, big business, influence in high places....politically. Hmmm...............

[Hephaestion]

In terms of international law, Gaza is not a country therefore has no Territorial waters.

Gaza Shares a big border with Egypt. It would have been very easy to go through Egypt. But of course, it would not have been as sensational as Israel commandos boarding a peaceful ship. remember the ship that carried This whole affair is a ploy.

The funny thing about all of this is that nothing was said about North Korea that sank a south Korean ship last march 26. more than 40 sailors died.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/25/AR2010042503113.html

Why did Israel board the ship? because it has no choice. Many ships have been caught in the past carrying arms.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125732536158927651.html

Why can't we all just get along!

DM

Not sure what you are trying to say.

Territorial water would have been those waters in which by their proximity to land would have given Israel legal right to exercise some kind of customs activity in rather than international waters where it had none.

Put up job? The accepted idea was to give the Palestinians in Gaza humanitarian aid. Nobody forced the Israelis to deploy the wrong strategy.

As for aid to Gaza going in via Egypt that is exactly what has now happened as a result. If it was a put up job then it was a masterstroke to simultaneously: open borders; ensnare the Israelis masterminds into world wide condemnation; embarrass them as incompetent and ill disciplined; damage the relationship with their main allies. The Israelis did themselves great disservice.

-----

Yes, there were 40 South Korean navy sailors killed in an attack by the North Koreans who are still at war with the South Koreans. So despite the apparent 'cease-fire', the attack was part of an on-going war which by some may be seen as a 'Fair game' move in a squabble over territorial waters. The majority probably see such events as a tragic waste of life. Was the South Korean ship being intentionally provocative? One side will say yes the other side will say no. Why doesn't somebody start a thread on this?



.

[Long Duck Dong]

Not bullshit and I stand by my opinion. I didn't see that link, before this post. Sorry about that, You missed quite a bit out. I think, from what I read, on the link, that far more than this small piece you have copied and pasted, does apply, to what went on in international waters.

Perhaps all posting here, should re-read the bits about what happens at sea. Each single section. We know what happened. Telling, isn't it, that 9 humanitarian people, lost their lives, many injured. No Israeli forces killed, only injured, in an operation, which took place at night, upon the high seas, in international waters. Hardly a friendly, board and search, party, if helicopers land troops upon ships in the dead of night, whilst surrounding those ships, with other, seafaring vehicles, which are also armed to the teeth.

You missed out quite a bit, with your cut and paste. I'll just cut and paste the titles of the various sections.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
Full text [Display Introduction] [Display articles]

PART I : GENERAL PROVISIONS

SECTION I : SCOPE OF APPLICATION OF THE LAW
SECTION II : ARMED CONFLICTS AND THE LAW OF SELF-DEFENCE
SECTION III : ARMED CONFLICTS IN WHICH THE SECURITY COUNCIL HAS TAKEN ACTION
SECTION IV : AREAS OF NAVAL WARFARE
SECTION V : DEFINITIONS

PART II : REGIONS OF OPERATIONS

SECTION I : INTERNAL WATERS, TERRITORIAL SEA AND ACHIPELAGIC WATERS
SECTION II : INTERNATIONAL STRAITS AND ARCHIPELAGIC SEA LANES
General rules
SECTION III : EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE AND CONTINENTAL SHELF
SECTION IV : HIGH SEAS AND SEA-BED BEYOND NATIONAL JURISDICTION

PART III : BASIC RULES AND TARGET DISCRIMINATION

SECTION I : BASIC RULES
SECTION II : PRECAUTIONS IN ATTACK
SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK
SECTION IV : OTHER ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
SECTION VI : PRECAUTIONS REGARDING CIVIL AIRCRAFT

PART IV : METHODS AND MEANS OF WARFARE AT SEA

SECTION I : MEANS OF WARFARE
SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE
SECTION III : DECEPTION, RUSES OF WAR AND PERFIDY

PART V : MEASURES SHORT OF ATTACK: INTERCEPTION, VISIT, SEARCH, DIVERSION AND CAPTURE

SECTION I :DETERMINATION OF ENEMY CHARACTER OF VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT
SECTION II : VISIT AND SEARCH OF MERCHANT VESSELS
SECTION III : INTERCEPTION, VISIT AND SEARCH OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT
SECTION IV : CAPTURE OF ENEMY VESSELS AND GOODS
SECTION V : CAPTURE OF ENEMY CIVIL AIRCRAFT AND GOODS
SECTION VI : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND GOODS
SECTION VII : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL CIVIL AIRCRAFT AND GOODS

PART VI : PROTECTED PERSONS, MEDICAL TRANSPORTS AND MEDICAL
AIRCRAFT
GENERAL RULES

SECTION I : PROTECTED PERSONS
SECTION II : MEDICAL TRANSPORTS
SECTION III : MEDICAL AIRCRAFT

You cut and pasted one small piece of that document. I have read it and there seem to be many sub-sections, which could be applied to the delivering of humanitarian aid and to the interception of ships upon the high seas, in international waters. Each part, section and sub-section of the document needs to be read. This area is not black and white. There are many shades of grey.

Plus, the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Is it just a sea blockade? Or is this an air and land blockade, also? If so, and if countries and organisations, decide to fly in aid and refuse to land, if ordered to by the Israelis, with Isaraei airforce fighter planes, shoot the such planes, out of the sky.

If Egypt decides to fully open it's border with Gaza, allow ships and planes to land aid in Egypt, so that it can be taken across the border by land, will the Israeli Government, see this as breaking their blockade of Gaza and therefore decide to invade Egypt. After all, they haven't thought it was wrong to invade Lebanon and purely for the sake of Israel....not the Lebanese.

I still say it was piracy and an act of war.

I asked you to show me where under the international humanitarian law.....that it was a act of piracy and war...... not a wall of text that means nothing

the part I copied and pasted, showed under the law, where the activists breached the law protecting them.....

btw the local airport is closed for minor repairs

local airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport)

[Canticle]

Hmmmmm!!! Pretty obvious why the airport is closed and totalled!!! Could it be that Isarael, had a hand in that???

[Long Duck Dong]

In post #326, Heph points out the following as the position of the US government.
"0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:
a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN"


To Pasa and those who support the Israeli soldiers murdering of these activists

Since you all seem to be from the USA, your government is telling you that it disagrees with you. I don't think that there has been significant discussion on this. When combined with the video showing an Israeli soldier killing an activist on his knees, those who continue to defend Israel in this situation, should be rethinking their position. Instead they make accusations about other posters intelligence or other such distractive attempts. I am wondering if we will read words to the sort that the US government is wrong and Obama attacks, etc.?

If Israel refuses to permit the UN to investigate this situation and turn over all video footage,this will not ease the tensions in the middle east. All comments about Israel needing to defend itself with force and this blockade, increases the need for the UN and the US to act. As a key financial supporter, the US should cut off financial aid to Israel but I doubt that will happen. If it doesn't, it demonstates the problem.

The question is what should the world do as a reaction to Israel's actions? Should there be consequences against Israel. Will the US send war ships to protect the promised four hundred dollar aid package for Gazans? Will Israel back down? I doubt that it would stop a US cargo ship with aid for Gaza. I'm sure that it is practising its dance steps on this one.

Signed
The moron :)


any investigation by the un, will find what we already know......
the activists failed to stop, they were boarded, people died.....
regardless of who investigates, the facts speak for themselves.....

as for the us government disagreeing with people.... its a bit like the us ignoring international opposition to the war on iraq....... they will do as they see fit, not what the majority of the world feels is the right move to make....

hell in nz, there is a wall of silence from our government and thats nothing unusual, nz has less balls than a eunuch when it comes to speaking up and even then, they are careful not to upset most of nz, rather than be honest....

and regardless of what the un or any government says..... I stand by the simple ruling that if the ships has stopped, this shit never would have happened......

others can argue that the blockage is wrong.... and yes thats fair enuf... but in rebuttal to that, what alternative as they suggesting, in regards to stopping the transfer of weapons to people intent on using them on civilians....

instead of saying the blockage is wrong, yadda yadda..... give us your recommendations for stopping the civilian deaths...... without suggesting that people be uprooted and moved from one place to another, as most countries would not allow or condone that anyway

[Long Duck Dong]

Hmmmmm!!! Pretty obvious why the airport is closed and totalled!!! Could it be that Isarael, had a hand in that???

if you read the link, you would see that yes the IDF did it in 2001..... sighs....
thats why I posted the bloody link.... cos it states that clearly.......

[Hephaestion]

any investigation by the un, will find what we already know......
the activists failed to stop, they were boarded, people died.....
regardless of who investigates, the facts speak for themselves.....

as for the us government disagreeing with people.... its a bit like the us ignoring international opposition to the war on iraq....... they will do as they see fit, not what the majority of the world feels is the right move to make....

hell in nz, there is a wall of silence from our government and thats nothing unusual, nz has less balls than a eunuch when it comes to speaking up and even then, they are careful not to upset most of nz, rather than be honest....

and regardless of what the un or any government says..... I stand by the simple ruling that if the ships has stopped, this shit never would have happened......

others can argue that the blockage is wrong.... and yes thats fair enuf... but in rebuttal to that, what alternative as they suggesting, in regards to stopping the transfer of weapons to people intent on using them on civilians....

instead of saying the blockage is wrong, yadda yadda..... give us your recommendations for stopping the civilian deaths...... without suggesting that people be uprooted and moved from one place to another, as most countries would not allow or condone that anyway


The ships were sailiing under the Israeli's local ally's flag. That should have been sufficient reassurance for the Israelis that nothing of consequence was being carried. Turkey is the kind of country that would have known what was going on and would have stopped the flotilla had it thought that things would have degenerated as they did.

Why did matters degenerate? We have debated this at length: A military response in international waters rather than one of Customs declaration in local waters; Witnesses say firing from the outset; loss of discipline at crucial moments etc.

Turkey's official reaction post event was not critical of the flotilla but one of anger at the Israelis. No doubt that telephone lines betweeen Ankara and Washington glowed since, as Turkey appears to have calmed down and with the USA stepping in as a replacement guaranteur - temporarily?.

Lastly, as far as can be assertained, nothing was found. Surely this suggests that humanitarian aid via Turkey is the simplest viable answer for relief. The recomencement would do two things. One, is that it would provide what is necessary - humaintarian relief. Two, it would set Israel and Turkey back to being mutually appreciative; the Israelis would trust the supplies with routine customs overview and the Turks would have made a point that they are to be trusted. The alternative would be to lose Turkey to an even more islamic stance.

.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

The ships were sailiing under the Israeli's local ally's flag. That should have been sufficient reassurance for the Israelis that nothing of consequence was being carried. Turkey is the kind of country that would have known what was going on and would have stopped the flotilla had it thought that things would have degenerated as they did.

Why did matters degenerate? We have debated this at length: A military response in international waters rather than one of Customs declaration in local waters; Witnesses say firing from the outset; loss of discipline at crucial moments etc.

Turkey's official reaction post event was not critical of the flotilla but one of anger at the Israelis. No doubt that telephone lines betweeen Ankara and Washington glowed since, as Turkey appears to have calmed down and with the USA stepping in as a replacement guaranteur - temporarily?.

Lastly, as far as can be assertained, nothing was found. Surely this suggests that humanitarian aid via Turkey is the simplest viable answer for relief. The recomencement would do two things. One, is that it would provide what is necessary - humaintarian relief. Two, it would set Israel and Turkey back to being mutually appreciative; the Israelis would trust the supplies with routine customs overview and the Turks would have made a point that they are to be trusted. The alternative would be to lose Turkey to an even more islamic stance.

.

.

nods yeah.... the part that concerns me is that the protestors that attacked the soldiers, boarded at a different port of call, so I would contend that the ships were loaded at a official port of call, but that the extra boarding of people was not as a official capacity....

I tend to have the view that turkey played no part in this beyond the aid.... they were actively assisting in a strictly humanitarian role .....

turkish protestors were killed, but that doesn't, in my mind, lay blame on turkey.... as people do not always represent their countries with actions and words....

I see that you and myself think similarly.... a official and neutral loading area with inspectors from a neutral country.... no other port of call after that..... the ships sail to ashdod port, are unloaded and transported ( tho I doubt hamas would allow that, based around their statements that they will not accept any aid that the israelis has had anything to do with) or allowed to sail thru the blockade and unload where hamas will accept the aid......

after reading in a report from nov last year, about a shipment of weapons interceded by israel... I can understand why israel is so hot under the collar.....

[Canticle]

if you read the link, you would see that yes the IDF did it in 2001..... sighs....
thats why I posted the bloody link.... cos it states that clearly.......

Doesn't matter how long ago the airport was totalled. If it's not usable and because of Israeli attack and the ruling forces in Gaza don't have the dosh to rebuild it, there's gonna be nowhere to land large planes. If the ruling forces, in Gaza, also know, that if they did rebuild, that upon completion, Israel would most likely, destroy the airport again.....there is little point in them doing so. So....apparently.....they are not supposed to have aid brought in by air or sea. I hope that as much aid, as is at all possible, will get through to Gaza, via Egypt, I truly do.

[Canticle]

Coming back to this....

''I asked you to show me where under the international humanitarian law.....that it was a act of piracy and war...... not a wall of text that means nothing

the part I copied and pasted, showed under the law, where the activists breached the law protecting them.....

btw the local airport is closed for minor repairs''

I stated why I was posting the titles of the parts and of the different sections, of those parts, of that document. You quoted one small piece. Upon reading the document, it appeared to me, that many more sections and sub-sections of said document, apply to what happened upon May 31st. In such a matter, it should not be a case, of pick and choose what is and isn't relavent, to a situation. Like I said, things are not black and white. There are many shades of grey.

[mariersa]

RE: post 413

Actully, aid through Egypt " a Neutral Avenue "is the best approach, afterall iad has used this "way" for a long time, without incident they seem to find any questionable "goods" and let true aid flow through. Thank You "Balfour" 1916.:(

[Canticle]

RE: post 413

Actully, aid through Egypt " a Neutral Avenue "is the best approach, afterall iad has used this "way" for a long time, without incident they seem to find any questionable "goods" and let true aid flow through. Thank You "Balfour" 1916.:(

I think that in many ways, I agree with you Marie. If all the aid bound for Gaza, could get there, without the fear of Israel, intervening, in the way it did on May 31st....three cheers! However, This does not get rid of the blockade and Gaza, being kept from having freedom, of it's own waters and receiving visits from ships. I think that Israel would find an excuse for detroying anything that might be innocent and not anti-Israel. The bombing of an airport...no matter how long ago....is one example. Seems like they don't want anyone getting in or out of Gaza.

[Long Duck Dong]

Coming back to this....

''I asked you to show me where under the international humanitarian law.....that it was a act of piracy and war...... not a wall of text that means nothing

the part I copied and pasted, showed under the law, where the activists breached the law protecting them.....

btw the local airport is closed for minor repairs''

I stated why I was posting the titles of the parts and of the different sections, of those parts, of that document. You quoted one small piece. Upon reading the document, it appeared to me, that many more sections and sub-sections of said document, apply to what happened upon May 31st. In such a matter, it should not be a case, of pick and choose what is and isn't relavent, to a situation. Like I said, things are not black and white. There are many shades of grey.

in simple english, you can not share any laws that prove a act of piracy and war......
its just a personal perception.......

I used a set of laws that were created to cover the situation that happened, that PROTECTED the ships..... the actions of people on board the ship, changed the nature of the ship and breached the law that protected it....

that is why I never focused on the laws pertained to aircraft etc.... cos the protestors were in ships, not planes......

as for the bombing of the airport...... etc.... read around..... all israel is trying to do is stop the importing of weapons that are being used to kill people......

hama is intent on killing people, they have clearly stated that......

I find it interesting that there is a big outcry over the protestors getting killed, yet silence over the use of weapons to kill civilians......
that tells me more about each countries stance of the whole picture, rather than just the deaths of nine protestors

[Canticle]

An international law to specifically cover one incident, or, at least, very similar incidents? I do not see how that is at all possible, when there are so many grey areas. It's not a cut and dried situation.

Great feeling of power...the ability to have a country rich enough, that although it is only small, can afford the necessary arms, to obliterate an airport, therefore denying access to Gaza by air and then have the capability to blockade sea routes.

No body wants the innocent to die......Jewish, Muslim, Christian.....Arab or Israeli. Any terrorism is wrong, but so are the retaliations, because they just cause another response.....and so it goes on.

A land called the Lebanon was rebuilding itself, rebuilding Beruit, when the Israelis decided to bomb it to bits and took no notice of world condemnation. They never do.

I copied and pasted all the titles of parts and sections....those covering planes as well, because the document you put a link to, includes them and because I was going to make a reference to what kind of a blockade was this. Sea, alone, or Sea, land and air. I would have thought that this was quite obvious.

The event on may 31st cannot be covered by only a few lines, from one document. There is a bigger issue there.

I perceive that it was piracy and an act of war. I don't need simple English used. I speak the Queen's English, quite well, thank you very much.

[Long Duck Dong]

actually the laws were created a good number of years ago, to cover conflict and humanitarian aid and the guidelines of war and conflict..... its why its so varied....

things like the Geneva convention were not set up for one situation, but to cover most sceneries.... the humanitarian law is the same, it applied as best as possible to many scenerios....as a general guideline

now surely if you were well read, you would have noticed that its been referred to in the media as a naval blockage... by governments as a naval blockade and by the Israelis as a naval blockade.....
naval means at sea..... hell the thread has been about the naval blockage....

now the single line refered to a naval blockade, not aircraft, not vessels of war etc etc..... thats why I posted it......

now israel, like other small countries, rely on support and aid from other countries..... thats not a isolated aspect, it has happened with a number of countries over the years......

and lastly, I am not drawing into question the language in which you post..... I have been refering to the fact that I ask you simple english questions, and you talk like a politican, a lot of hand waving and waffling and never simply answer the question.....

[Canticle]

actually the laws were created a good number of years ago, to cover conflict and humanitarian aid and the guidelines of war and conflict..... its why its so varied....

things like the Geneva convention were not set up for one situation, but to cover most sceneries.... the humanitarian law is the same, it applied as best as possible to many scenerios....as a general guideline

now surely if you were well read, you would have noticed that its been referred to in the media as a naval blockage... by governments as a naval blockade and by the Israelis as a naval blockade.....
naval means at sea..... hell the thread has been about the naval blockage....

now the single line refered to a naval blockade, not aircraft, not vessels of war etc etc..... thats why I posted it......

now israel, like other small countries, rely on support and aid from other countries..... thats not a isolated aspect, it has happened with a number of countries over the years......

and lastly, I am not drawing into question the language in which you post..... I have been refering to the fact that I ask you simple english questions, and you talk like a politican, a lot of hand waving and waffling and never simply answer the question.....

Sighs.....i know what you're saying....I just don't agree with you!

And what was the question?

A politician? Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment. However, I never waffle and only use my hands for expressive gesture.

[Canticle]

PS. I know it's a naval blockade. I asked the question ''Was it just a naval blockade, or an air and land blockade too.'' I see no point to a naval blockade, if there is no air and land blockade, also.

Aid can be dropped from planes...certain aid and the border with Egypt, allows for aid being supplied by land. If you're going to have a successful blockade, surely it should be air, sea and land.

Of course, in the present climate, I doubt very much, that Israel would dare to invade Egypt, for allowing aid to be supplied, across it's border with Gaza, because it knows that all hell would break loose.

[hardnbubbly]

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html

I've seen it first on the site above. I've seen it repeated elsewhere.


hardnbubbly
Thanks for the information in your post #394. If I understand you the victim was on his knees when shot by an Israeli soldier. What was the source where you learned about this video?


In post #326, Heph points out the following as the position of the US government.
"0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:
a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN"


To Pasa and those who support the Israeli soldiers murdering of these activists

Since you all seem to be from the USA, your government is telling you that it disagrees with you. I don't think that there has been significant discussion on this. When combined with the video showing an Israeli soldier killing an activist on his knees, those who continue to defend Israel in this situation, should be rethinking their position. Instead they make accusations about other posters intelligence or other such distractive attempts. I am wondering if we will read words to the sort that the US government is wrong and Obama attacks, etc.?

If Israel refuses to permit the UN to investigate this situation and turn over all video footage,this will not ease the tensions in the middle east. All comments about Israel needing to defend itself with force and this blockade, increases the need for the UN and the US to act. As a key financial supporter, the US should cut off financial aid to Israel but I doubt that will happen. If it doesn't, it demonstates the problem.

The question is what should the world do as a reaction to Israel's actions? Should there be consequences against Israel. Will the US send war ships to protect the promised four hundred dollar aid package for Gazans? Will Israel back down? I doubt that it would stop a US cargo ship with aid for Gaza. I'm sure that it is practising its dance steps on this one.

Signed
The moron :)

Canticle
Thanks for your kind words in post #389

[Long Duck Dong]

PS. I know it's a naval blockade. I asked the question ''Was it just a naval blockade, or an air and land blockade too.'' I see no point to a naval blockade, if there is no air and land blockade, also.

Aid can be dropped from planes...certain aid and the border with Egypt, allows for aid being supplied by land. If you're going to have a successful blockade, surely it should be air, sea and land.

Of course, in the present climate, I doubt very much, that Israel would dare to invade Egypt, for allowing aid to be supplied, across it's border with Gaza, because it knows that all hell would break loose.

I thought you read posts in the thread and other areas.... you seem to indicate that you do..... tho your answers indicate otherwise

1) there is a naval blockage on the water, dealing with the ships
2) read up on egypt and the border crossings, and the opening of the borders etc....
3) read up on israels air force

there have been reports all thru the media ( newpapers and websites ) about the opening of borders etc etc......

now there is a big difference between transporting 600 ton of aid ( one ship ) and about 30 aircraft and 55 trucks
most of the transportation of weapons has been by ship.... refer back in the thread to the post about the shipment of weapons last nov

lastly...... ( I copied this from another site, it is not my own words )

Israel left Gaza, and forcibly ethnically cleansed Jewish towns and villages in the area, as part of an understanding with the US on the status of other Jewish towns and villages. The Obama administration has since then chosen to not only ignore that understanding, but to expand its definition of “settlements” to include Jews living in Jerusalem. The Obama administration has unilaterally revoked the understanding reached with Israel that was the basis for the Gaza Disengagement. As such Israel has every right to reverse its own disengagement.

By leaving Gaza alone and only monitoring its borders and coastlines, Israel displayed superhuman patience and tolerance for terrorists. But if the world refuses to back a naval blockade, then Israel has no choice but to take control of the ground. If the Obama administration refuses to accept the understanding on which Israel’s original withdrawal was based, then it is time to reverse that withdrawal. The ongoing imprisonment of Gilad Shalit, Hamas’ own atrocities against fellow Arabs and the presence of Al Queda in Gaza—are all additional factors that demand action

[hardnbubbly]

OMG!!!! There are parallel universes aren't there?? :p

Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, without agreements for strategic economic and military reasons. It is much cheaper and easier for them to deal with territories that are completely sealed off by walls from those it oppresses that to have a big military force that has to guard each person.

Btw, who the hell is the U.S. to decide for another people when and if to give them their human rights? Yes Israelis that come into East Jerusalem are settlers by every single definition. Whether it is 40 years after occupation or just 1 month after occupation.

If you don't want to consider them settlers, then I suppose you support a one state solution where every person living in Israel and the occupied territories has equal rights under the law. A state for all its people and not only for some. (Democracy vs. Apartheid). Something tells me that this is not a solution you like? Correct me if I am wrong.




I thought you read posts in the thread and other areas.... you seem to indicate that you do..... tho your answers indicate otherwise

1) there is a naval blockage on the water, dealing with the ships
2) read up on egypt and the border crossings, and the opening of the borders etc....
3) read up on israels air force

there have been reports all thru the media ( newpapers and websites ) about the opening of borders etc etc......

now there is a big difference between transporting 600 ton of aid ( one ship ) and about 30 aircraft and 55 trucks
most of the transportation of weapons has been by ship.... refer back in the thread to the post about the shipment of weapons last nov

lastly...... ( I copied this from another site, it is not my own words )

Israel left Gaza, and forcibly ethnically cleansed Jewish towns and villages in the area, as part of an understanding with the US on the status of other Jewish towns and villages. The Obama administration has since then chosen to not only ignore that understanding, but to expand its definition of “settlements” to include Jews living in Jerusalem. The Obama administration has unilaterally revoked the understanding reached with Israel that was the basis for the Gaza Disengagement. As such Israel has every right to reverse its own disengagement.

By leaving Gaza alone and only monitoring its borders and coastlines, Israel displayed superhuman patience and tolerance for terrorists. But if the world refuses to back a naval blockade, then Israel has no choice but to take control of the ground. If the Obama administration refuses to accept the understanding on which Israel’s original withdrawal was based, then it is time to reverse that withdrawal. The ongoing imprisonment of Gilad Shalit, Hamas’ own atrocities against fellow Arabs and the presence of Al Queda in Gaza—are all additional factors that demand action

[tenni]

"If you don't want to consider them settlers, then I suppose you support a one state solution where every person living in Israel and the occupied territories has equal rights under the law. A state for all its people and not only for some. (Democracy vs. Apartheid). Something tells me that this is not a solution you like? Correct me if I am wrong."


The position that what is going on in this territory is Apartheid is an interesting point of discussion. Recently, in Toronto, On, Canada, this has blown up and created friction as far as the upcoming PRIDE parade. The city of Toronto gives money for this PRIDE week because it is a huge tourist attraction and brings in revenue. Last year there was a group that marched under the banner "Queers Opposed to Israeli Apartheid". Toronto threatened to withdraw the funding unless that group was not permitted to march. The Pride organizers banned the group stating that without the money from Toronto city council that the week events would be seriously affected. Some in the GLBT community have become angry over this as they believe that the parade is political and these people should be permitted to march under the banner. Some who have received honours have turned in their award or refused to accept the award this year. Some have argued that the GLBT are not suppose to take up other causes.

The question of whether Israel's actions are Apartheid and perhaps this blockade as being an indication of Apartheid is interesting.

One definition of apartheid states:
1/ A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
2/ The condition of being separated from others; segregation.
3/ / An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites. (note by tenni: most commonly understood meaning)

Wiki states: "The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

btw I watched the video that hardnbubbly posted. I do see some men with weapons. The weapons were broom handles and sling shots. The vast majority had nothing but cameras in their hands. I saw a couple of men shooting sling shots at the helicopter. Pfft. I scanned it and didn't watch it in detail. I didn't see a man kneeling and then being shot but it may be there.

[Long Duck Dong]

OMG!!!! There are parallel universes aren't there?? :p

Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, without agreements for strategic economic and military reasons. It is much cheaper and easier for them to deal with territories that are completely sealed off by walls from those it oppresses that to have a big military force that has to guard each person.

Btw, who the hell is the U.S. to decide for another people when and if to give them their human rights? Yes Israelis that come into East Jerusalem are settlers by every single definition. Whether it is 40 years after occupation or just 1 month after occupation.

If you don't want to consider them settlers, then I suppose you support a one state solution where every person living in Israel and the occupied territories has equal rights under the law. A state for all its people and not only for some. (Democracy vs. Apartheid). Something tells me that this is not a solution you like? Correct me if I am wrong.

who the hell is the us ??? go ask the us..... as they, like other countries, appear to only give a shit, when its their own back yard that somebody shits in.... but if its somebody elses, then the us, like other countries, take a different stance

now I am a person that doesn't give a rats ass about laws or rules, even tho I posted some..... actually I posted them to see how many people would read the rules and see how many of them are broken by the same countries and groups that helped create them


as for basic human rights, yes, i support basic human rights, but I do not fight for equal rights, as I embrace the differences between cultures and races... and I am acutely aware that what works for one country, will not work for another

I use the example of democracy.... yeah sure, democracy is good, it allowed the people of gaza to elect a government of hamas that is intent on mass murder......
the same type of democracy allowed for the elections of hitler....

there are times that a dictatorship is the better option.... if the dictator is fair and just and is looking out for the people.... but who am I kidding..... nobody wants a dictator, when you can democratically elect people like hamas......

[Canticle]

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-footage-of-flotilla-attack-contradicts-israeli-account.html

I've seen it first on the site above. I've seen it repeated elsewhere.

Thank you for posting this. It was most interesting and also rather disturbing, to watch. Not shocking (even though it should be), for we have all become very much numbed, by the images, which we see upon our screens.


From LDD's last post.

''btw I watched the video that hardnbubbly posted. I do see some men with weapons. The weapons were broom handles and sling shots. The vast majority had nothing but cameras in their hands. I saw a couple of men shooting sling shots at the helicopter. Pfft. I scanned it and didn't watch it in detail. I didn't see a man kneeling and then being shot but it may be there.''

I watched both videos, the shorter, edited piece, lasting 14 minutes and the longer, ''raw'' video footage, lasting an hour.

I saw the same things a LDD, but I also saw other things. I saw quite a lot of people, men and women, many appearing to be journalists. The atmosphere seemed relaxed and people were talking, resting, sitting at computers and at one point, taking part in religious activity.

The the small Israeli boats were seen, three of them and a larger ship in the distance. The people on board the aid ship, saw what they thought, were drone aircraft and this is when people began to worry. Lifejackets were given to all those on board and look outs were scanning the sea.

A small Israeli sea vessel came alongside the aid ship and the soldiers were very obviously shooting at the ship. There were also other noises which sounded as if they could have been the paint ball guns (the paint later mistaken for blood, by one journalist). Then a helicopter arrived and soldiers could be seen abseiling, to the ship's deck.

Gun fire could be heard...quite clearly and it was soon very obvious that people were getting shot. I saw one man, who was obviously dead or dying (in fact he bled to death and the worried woman in black, was his wife), and another, younger man, not an Arab, or Turkish, who looked to be seriously wounded.

People were ordered inside, the wounded were carried below (including two wounded Israeli soldiers), and a woman asked the Israeli's not to attack, that there were no guns aboard, there were civilians on board, there were many injured people and help was needed.

A white, middle aged man, in his 50s, with either an American or Canadian accent (His name was Kevin), showed to the camera, a document, which must have been taken from one of the Israeli soldiers. It was in Hebrew, but had the name of the ship in English and had photographs and details of certain people, obviously expected to be on board the ship.

There were men...frightened men, agitated men, who had armed themselves with sticks and rods, but I saw no sign of any of them carrying guns. Mostly what looked like walkie talkies, or cameras and of course, a couple of men with slingshots.

Like LDD, I saw no footage of anyone on their knees, being shot by an Israeli soldier.

The whole affair, as seen in those videos, looks like a cowardly, night time attack upon the aid ship. I do not think that anything can be read into the fact that some people upon the aid ship had gas masks. Being intelligent people, I am sure they already knew, what tactics might be used against the aid ships.

An investigation by Israel is not good enough. An independent investigation, should be carried out by the UN and all countries, should press for that. It is already being said that the two independent, non Israeli observers, are too Israeli friendly, to be counted as neutral.

[Canticle]

who the hell is the us ??? go ask the us..... as they, like other countries, appear to only give a shit, when its their own back yard that somebody shits in.... but if its somebody elses, then the us, like other countries, take a different stance

now I am a person that doesn't give a rats ass about laws or rules, even tho I posted some..... actually I posted them to see how many people would read the rules and see how many of them are broken by the same countries and groups that helped create them


as for basic human rights, yes, i support basic human rights, but I do not fight for equal rights, as I embrace the differences between cultures and races... and I am acutely aware that what works for one country, will not work for another

I use the example of democracy.... yeah sure, democracy is good, it allowed the people of gaza to elect a government of hamas that is intent on mass murder......
the same type of democracy allowed for the elections of hitler....

there are times that a dictatorship is the better option.... if the dictator is fair and just and is looking out for the people.... but who am I kidding..... nobody wants a dictator, when you can democratically elect people like hamas......

This is a very confusing post and at times, it appears to be extremely contradictory.

[Hephaestion]

14 Jun 2010
Israeli enquiry started on the flotilla incidents. Criticised for not being UN led. Two external participant invited. One from Ireland the other from Canada.

LDD - are you suggesting that a benign dictatorship is preferable to (a) democratically elected leader(s)? One wonders who assesses the values?

A reminder that our "marvelous co-belligerents" of WW2 were the USSR led by their benign dictator Stalin. He made Hitler look like a saint.

[Canticle]

I thought you read posts in the thread and other areas.... you seem to indicate that you do..... tho your answers indicate otherwise

1) there is a naval blockage on the water, dealing with the ships
2) read up on egypt and the border crossings, and the opening of the borders etc....
3) read up on israels air force

there have been reports all thru the media ( newpapers and websites ) about the opening of borders etc etc......

now there is a big difference between transporting 600 ton of aid ( one ship ) and about 30 aircraft and 55 trucks
most of the transportation of weapons has been by ship.... refer back in the thread to the post about the shipment of weapons last nov

lastly...... ( I copied this from another site, it is not my own words )

Israel left Gaza, and forcibly ethnically cleansed Jewish towns and villages in the area, as part of an understanding with the US on the status of other Jewish towns and villages. The Obama administration has since then chosen to not only ignore that understanding, but to expand its definition of “settlements” to include Jews living in Jerusalem. The Obama administration has unilaterally revoked the understanding reached with Israel that was the basis for the Gaza Disengagement. As such Israel has every right to reverse its own disengagement.

By leaving Gaza alone and only monitoring its borders and coastlines, Israel displayed superhuman patience and tolerance for terrorists. But if the world refuses to back a naval blockade, then Israel has no choice but to take control of the ground. If the Obama administration refuses to accept the understanding on which Israel’s original withdrawal was based, then it is time to reverse that withdrawal. The ongoing imprisonment of Gilad Shalit, Hamas’ own atrocities against fellow Arabs and the presence of Al Queda in Gaza—are all additional factors that demand action

LDD, I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless trying to make you understand another's point of view, or how they see things. You appear to see the events surrounding Israel and gaza, in black and white.

You quote a small part of a document, as if only that particular piece is relavent, to what has happened, in international waters. I am not going to cut and paste each section and sub-section. I believe the readers of the thread to be intelligent enough, to look through said document and decide for themselves, that other sections and sub-sections should be and probably are relavent.

You appear to believe that only someone who has served in the forces, can have any opinion, which is of any importance, where such a serious attack has taken place. Not so!

As....in the past.....Israel has launched air attacks on Tunis, Iraq (or was it Iran), Lebanon, surrounding countries, during war, rescued Jews from Entebbe, collected Ethiopian Jews, to bring them ''back home,'' and continues to use planes for attacks on Gaza, and because, Israel is not a poor country, I am betting that for a tiny state, they have a pretty well armed air force. They have nuclear weapons, so I can't see them having a below par air force.......planes probably sold to them by certain western powers......ain't gonna name one though.

And Al Queda is everywhere and we can probably blame it's existence on certain western states, supporting the rebel forces, in Afghanistan, which later became the ruling Taliban. I wonder how different things would have been, if that hadn't happened and if other foreign policies had not existed. but, heck.....we'll never know.

So let's agree to disagree...OK

[tenni]

Canticle re: your post #427

With regards to your comment about LDD, I actually made that comment in post 425 about watching the video.

The middle aged man in his 50's named Kevin that you comment on is a Canadian from Vancouver, B.C. There were three Canadians in that floatila. When the incident happened, Kevin's friends stepped forward concerned about him. They reported that he is an activist and he stated that the worse that he expected was to be held by Israeli and possibly a little of pushing. The best that I could get out of his pointing to the book was that he thought that the Israelis had targeted certain people and they are the ones who died. He said that he got the booklet after it fell from an Israeli who boarded the ship. I'm not sure that I have it correct though? I don't think that he reported this to the Canadian media?

The Canadian who is to be an observer was reported in our media. He is a retired Canadian military man who has extensive experience as Canada's former chief military prosecutor, retired Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin. Watkin served as a Canadian Forces legal officer for more than 25 years and has been involved in various inquiries arising from the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and a visiting fellow in the human rights program at Harvard Law School.

[Canticle]

Canticle re: your post #427

With regards to your comment about LDD, I actually made that comment in post 425 about watching the video.

The middle aged man in his 50's named Kevin that you comment on is a Canadian from Vancouver, B.C. There were three Canadians in that floatila. When the incident happened, Kevin's friends stepped forward concerned about him. They reported that he is an activist and he stated that the worse that he expected was to be held by Israeli and possibly a little of pushing. The best that I could get out of his pointing to the book was that he thought that the Israelis had targeted certain people and they are the ones who died. He said that he got the booklet after it fell from an Israeli who boarded the ship. I'm not sure that I have it correct though? I don't think that he reported this to the Canadian media?

The Canadian who is to be an observer was reported in our media. He is a retired Canadian military man who has extensive experience as Canada's former chief military prosecutor, retired Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin. Watkin served as a Canadian Forces legal officer for more than 25 years and has been involved in various inquiries arising from the 1994 genocide in Rwanda and a visiting fellow in the human rights program at Harvard Law School.

Thank you Tenni. Ah, well.......whatever...whoever.......we saw the same and didn't a certain item...so if i quoted it as being LDD's slice of post....I apologise to both of you. I was eating cheescake at the time!

I thought that the booklet had probably fallen out of a soldier's uniform, too. When and where, I guess isn't so important, but I thank that guy Kevin, for finding it.

Let's hope the observers can remain neutral. A UN investigation would be better.

[tenni]

I agree that a UN investigation would be better. I'm not certain as to the two observer's role. Who are they reporting to? Questions like that remain for me but it may be that I didn't read the actual article carefully enough that reported on this. I doubt very much what this Kevin found will be part of the Israeli investigation. To be honest though, I'm not completely convinced that Kevin is an angel. I don't know why and may be completely incorrect.

Cheesecake?....chocolate carmel ice cream is the excellent dessert offering in my house right now...lol

[mdvbi]

please be open minded about the facts over there. one of which is that this blockade is a military response to a threat. the gazans need but to let israel be and there will not be a problem. now that you've asked and I've put my 2 cents in, let's remember what this site is about..and that's not politics. I'll pray for these folks on both sides.
I've waited for someone to post something about Israel's raid on the aid convoy and so many deaths. It is sad that no one has felt fit to say a dickie bird. It is in all our interests to show concern and argue against oppression and discrimination from wherever it comes.. I make no comment at this stage about my view of the truth of the matter, except to say that so far the evidence as best I can see does not back Israel's claims. I am still absorbing what I can before doing so.. most of you will know where my sympathies lie but its no use shooting from the hip which I can and do do quite often..

Gaza, whatever the truth of the matter is an absolute mess and its getting worse by the day.. the fact that Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with the American President says a lot about his mindset and his determination to keep the pressure on Gaza.

[Hephaestion]

The bits of the video I found interesting were:

a) there had been no verbal contact but the people on board the ship could discern that the boats shadowing them were military and so the passengers were given the first reaction in all cases - fluoresent and reflective life jackets.

b) the comment made before any contact that the flotilla had altered course to appease the Israelis and thus they hoped that they would engage in talks come the morning.

c) It did look as though the Israelis carried an identity guide - so were these murder squads out on a misison?

Disgraceful set of events. There was sufficient tonnage on the Israeli side to bring the Mavi Marmara to a stop without boarding. Furthermore, the Israelis could have asked the Turkish authorities for assistance. Radio waves travel fairly fast.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless trying to make you understand another's point of view, or how they see things. You appear to see the events surrounding Israel and gaza, in black and white.

You quote a small part of a document, as if only that particular piece is relavent, to what has happened, in international waters. I am not going to cut and paste each section and sub-section. I believe the readers of the thread to be intelligent enough, to look through said document and decide for themselves, that other sections and sub-sections should be and probably are relavent.

You appear to believe that only someone who has served in the forces, can have any opinion, which is of any importance, where such a serious attack has taken place. Not so!

As....in the past.....Israel has launched air attacks on Tunis, Iraq (or was it Iran), Lebanon, surrounding countries, during war, rescued Jews from Entebbe, collected Ethiopian Jews, to bring them ''back home,'' and continues to use planes for attacks on Gaza, and because, Israel is not a poor country, I am betting that for a tiny state, they have a pretty well armed air force. They have nuclear weapons, so I can't see them having a below par air force.......planes probably sold to them by certain western powers......ain't gonna name one though.

And Al Queda is everywhere and we can probably blame it's existence on certain western states, supporting the rebel forces, in Afghanistan, which later became the ruling Taliban. I wonder how different things would have been, if that hadn't happened and if other foreign policies had not existed. but, heck.....we'll never know.

So let's agree to disagree...OK

ok...... for a start, I see multiple points of view.....thats why my posts are the way they are ..... I do not look at things in terms of right or wrong, black or white..... I look at things in terms of everybodies point of view...... hence I rarely sit in the forums and tell people they are wrong, or fundmentalist pro zionists etc......

I posted the international humanitarian aid laws and then copied and pasted the part pertaining directly to the protest ship......because it applied to that ship.... then asked you to clarify your stance that it was piracy and war..... I was asking what international law you had read that I had not, that classed it as piracy and a act of war.....

I have the opinion that a person that has served in the forces will have a understanding of a soldiers thinking, and way of doing things, .... thats something that you generally do not find in civilians... as they never find themselves rappelling down ropes and attacking ships.... soldiers do.....
a civilian may understand the aspects of protest and dealing with force while protesting, that is why I acknowledged darkeyes opinion... she has the experience of dealing with that aspect.....
unless you have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun, or pointed a loaded gun at a person.... most people have no idea what can go through a persons head, they can only quess

as for what israel has or has not done, they are no different to any other country.... so i do not see them as any different ..... the same with al queda.... they are no different to many other groups.... so i treat them no different.....
it is people that support or oppose them, that see the difference with them and apply the differences to them and other groups.....

I am happy to agree to diagree.... but it will not stop me asking questions and learning how others think......

[Long Duck Dong]

14 Jun 2010
Israeli enquiry started on the flotilla incidents. Criticised for not being UN led. Two external participant invited. One from Ireland the other from Canada.

LDD - are you suggesting that a benign dictatorship is preferable to (a) democratically elected leader(s)? One wonders who assesses the values?

A reminder that our "marvelous co-belligerents" of WW2 were the USSR led by their benign dictator Stalin. He made Hitler look like a saint.

actually I am suggesting that there is no difference......
rather than accept dictators that want absolute rule ..... we perfer democracy and elect governments

a dictator will pass laws according to his views and enforce strict rule and remove / restrict rights for people based on any percieved issue

a democratically elected government will pass laws according to their stances, and enforce rules, and in a lot of countries, not grant basic human rights...( lgbt rights to marriage and equal protection and rights etc )

[Long Duck Dong]

This is a very confusing post and at times, it appears to be extremely contradictory.

I will break it down for you

most countries will protest their own boundaries, but criticize other countries for doing the same thing.... or act in a manner that is contradictory....
things like the detaining of civilians without right to trial or due course of justice..... ( in nz, we held a person for 7 years at the request of the us, their own crime was to take pics of tourist locations, but they were held in detention as a suspected terrorist even tho they had no connection to any terrorist groups... yet the us frowns on other countries doing the same thing )

I support basic human rights.... but not equal rights..... a example is australia and the treatment of the aboriginals, they took a group of them, and put them in a housing complex.... and wondered why the hell they destroyed the place..... the answer is cos the aboriginals could not relate to the way we live, they had a different way of life, and when removed from that, they developed issues like alcoholism.....
did you know that australia used to issue licenses to kill aboriginals...
now you can not apply equal rights to everybody when each culture and race has a different way of doing things, and require different levels of rights...... hence you get things like no head coverings in banks but muslim females arguing that they should not have to uncover their heads as part of their beliefs require them to be covered.....
you can not make everybody equal while granting exemptions to the rules for different people and groups... it creates unequality

as for dictators and democracy..... in the olde ways, a gathering of chiefs ( in iceland 930 AD I think it was ) was the first parliament....
the chiefs were charged with the responsibility of upholding justice and balanced interaction in their respective tribes.....
so you has a dictatorship answering to a democratic style parliament where disputes and issues were resolved by a group elected by the chiefs.....
now in those days, everybody had a voice in the tribe as a tribe was built around team work
in todays terms, it would be the united nations.... but using countries, not tribes.... but the issue lays with the ruling person / parties of each country.... they now lack the balanced support system of tribal unity.... as there is too many people and opinions and that allows a ruling person / party, to make the rules as they go along.....
and rather than sort it out so the * tribe * works together again as a co-hesive unit.... they go with the majority.......
hence you end up with a splintered society with different groups pushing different agendas.......

[Canticle]

Gee, I'm tired.......too tired to deal with replying to you LDD. However......refreshed....my mind with be at 100% efficiency and the Queen's English, with be used with full force.......and here I was being mildly humorous.......yawn. Nite.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Democracy, in and of itself, is no guarantee of freedom. Dictators and regimes know full well how to run a nation that has only known dictatorial control into voting to restore it. Part of that problem is that pure democracy is a terrible way to run things, almost worse than a dictatorship, and usually guaranteed to result in one eventually.

Representative democracy, however, is the best way to do things IF you want to prevent the oppression of the majority over the minority, and prevent the voting in of regimes who will take that 'mandate' and turn around and take away the freedoms democracy is intended to bestow.

Just because Gaza voted in Hamas does not mean we have a free democracy. In fact, the first order of business was to execute anyone associated with the losing faction. But don't let that stop you from declaring it a victory for democracy, President Carter.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

Democracy, in and of itself, is no guarantee of freedom. Dictators and regimes know full well how to run a nation that has only known dictatorial control into voting to restore it. Part of that problem is that pure democracy is a terrible way to run things, almost worse than a dictatorship, and usually guaranteed to result in one eventually.

Representative democracy, however, is the best way to do things IF you want to prevent the oppression of the majority over the minority, and prevent the voting in of regimes who will take that 'mandate' and turn around and take away the freedoms democracy is intended to bestow.

Just because Gaza voted in Hamas does not mean we have a free democracy. In fact, the first order of business was to execute anyone associated with the losing faction. But don't let that stop you from declaring it a victory for democracy, President Carter.

Pasa

lol.... did I mention that I do not believe that freedom exists ????:tong:

I believe that there is not freedom as we like to see freedom.....and that freedom on the level that many want it, is actually dangerous to the average human.....

in order for the human race and cultures to survive, they need to create and have boundaries that curb actions and words, to stop themselves imploding
a example is the fact that we are free to vote for a government, and free to choose to vote or not.... but we are limited by the people that we can vote for, and in turn they are limited in what they can and will do for the people that voted them in

[Hephaestion]

Was the voting in of Hamas the same as the voting in of Hitler i.e. by people who were desparate to have their voices heard and who had been oppressed under the then existing system?

In many respects both the Germans and Palestinians would not just accept their fate decided by a neighbour.

In the interwar years, there were French raiding parties into SW Germany looting in the name of reparations while hiding behind the Maginot Line; at the end of WW1, the Germans had accepted peace through armistice not surrender.

.

[Hephaestion]

actually I am suggesting that there is no difference......
rather than accept dictators that want absolute rule ..... we perfer democracy and elect governments

a dictator will pass laws according to his views and enforce strict rule and remove / restrict rights for people based on any percieved issue

a democratically elected government will pass laws according to their stances, and enforce rules, and in a lot of countries, not grant basic human rights...( lgbt rights to marriage and equal protection and rights etc )


Cynic.

There is of course the argument that democratization is the ameliration of mob rule and that it prevents the odd lynching of the overbearing. However, so long as there is deposing via the ballot box there is no need for such extremism. We substitute shame for murder for so long as it works e.g. Mussolini. It does seem to work reasonably well.

The greater number of western democratically elected govenrments do not withhold human rights. Rather the opposite tends to be true and our societies tend to be more progressive and 'understading'. Now when it comes to 'democracy' in e.g. parts of Africa, S.America and the far east, well that does tend to have an unusual flavour.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

not a cynic.... I just hate politicians and politics lol

honestly based around a centuries long overview.... in my opinion, we have taken 2000 years of going backwards under the illusion of going forwards, to almost be back where we started.....

originally, you fucked who you want ( in the bed and on the war fields ) but generally you were allowed to be who you were.....then we added politics, lol.....

2000 years later, we are finally starting to reach the point where you can be who you are ( lgbt rights ) and we are going backwards again, as groups fight for their rights and seek to have their way accepted while infringing on the rights of others.....something that counters equal rights....
( in nz, in auckland, our biggest city, the celebration of xmas in the city streets by way of xmas decorations and lights, has been stopped as its offensive to muslims, tho its a big part of christian / non christian celebrations )

I tend to view changes in society as the same, but instead of war, we have peaceful conquering, as diversity comes to the forefront....and under the guise of equal rights, many groups lose their individuality.....


the voting in of hitler and hamas is no different to the electing of bush and obama...... they all speak a message that gets attention..... ( or they use other means ).....
thats democracy at work......

I am gonna say something thats gonna sound very bad indeed....

in NZ, it took a atheist childless woman that did not believe in marriage ( she married cos it was considered a good look politicially ), to get nz LGBT the right to marriage......
most of the nz government argued against the lgbt having rights.....
the female called helen clark, was head of the labour party, refered to as the *communist * party in nz.. and regarded as a dictatorship type government ....as they will look after themselves first and screw nz over ...( in fact they did that, its estimated that it will be 2025 before nz gets out of the shit from 9 years of a labour led government.....)

thats why I said that in some cases a dictatorship style can at times, be better than a democracy

[tenni]

I find it interesting that the people who put forth an argument about whether a society is a democracy frequently refer to "true" (or direct) democracy as a beacon. Apparently, there are many types of democracy and determining who may vote is a factor. Now, in contemporary democratic countries we are referring to forms of "representational" democracy and rarely this "true" democracy that some (very few) get hung up on. There is the last to the post type of democracy where the number of votes per riding determine which candidate will represent that riding in a government. Another type involves not only electing members per riding but factoring in the total number of votes cast per political party and then allotting the remainder of seats based on the the percentage cast by all per political party. It might be argued that is "true" democracy rather than direct democracy. Other forms of democracy determine who may vote as a citizen. Land ownership may come into play or voting by hereditary forms of democracy. We could go on but why?

It seems to me that this argument about whether a country is a democracy is used by those who wish to nullify the votes cast by citizens. The fact is that Gazan's decided to have Hammas as their government. I've seen documentaries where this has been discussed and it is seems that some voted for Hammas as a reaction to Fatta. They voted in a protest vote. This has happened in many democratic countries. The outcome is a surprise when the protest votes bring in a very different and radical party compared to the voting history of the people. Some might say oh they didn't really want that party to win. That does not nullify the results though unless some forms of voting corruption has happened. As far as I can tell, Hammas is a more legitimately democratically elected government than the Karzai government in Afghanistan.

Hammas won democratically. Stop whining and using your distrust of Hammas to excuse your bigotry about arguing whether the Gaza government is a democratic government. Now, get back to the ethics of Israel's actions in this particular situation.

[DuckiesDarling]

Well, let's see who brought up the fact that Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza... oh yeah, Tenni.

There is no bigotry, they are terrorists. I have openly stated I support Israel, not because I'm an American, but because of their history. I do not believe any group should be systemically wiped off this earth. People offer solutions that they should just move, move where? It's their home. They have the right to defend it. It's easy for people who sit safe and sound in lands that war never touches to spout off their hypocritical bs. Bottom line, until you are living there and living with the fear each day that you are going to watch your children die you have no right to sit and point fingers. But if it makes you feel better to spout your political drivel, then by all means do so. That's what free speech is about.

[Long Duck Dong]

the ethics of israel ????

lmao.... we are at a impasse......

I see a humanitarian aid mission..... on ships..... I see israel with a blockade
I see the ships sailing under the rule of aid..... I see israel told them to waylay
the ships chose not to stop under the guidelines of international aid laws...
I see israel boarded the ships in order to stop them... I see protestors attacking the soldiers.... I see the soldiers reacting.... and I see death

people can argue it all they want....... they are the simple facts.....

you can add in all the morals and ethics and personal opinions til the cows come home..... and argue pro or anti israel...... or pro or anti the protestors....

at the end of the day, the ships sailing under the rule of international aid laws, had a obligation to stop, regardless of what country they were sailing under or who they thought they were or if the blockade was legal or not....
the international aid laws stated that the ship should have stopped.....
they chose not to.......

if they had waylaid as requested, nobody would have died...... blaming israel for a illegal blockade yadda yadda.... doesn't change the fact that a ship sailing under international aid laws, chose to ignore the directive to stop

btw did I forget to add that the transportation and distribution of aid for a foreign country, is supposed to be done by a international recognized aid relief group, like the red cross...... thats also part of the international aid law..... so thats two aid laws that the protesters ignored.....

now I am not anti protestors..... but I am anti idiots that ignore the very laws that protect them and keep them alive.....

[Pasadenacpl2]

Lessee Tenni, you brought up the idea of democratically elected government. So, it is a fair point of debate, which you now object to. In the courts that's called opening up the door, and your objection would be overruled.

BTW, the phrase 'True Democracy' has a very specific definition: that every person gets a vote. That there is no filter at all to prevent the oppression of the majority.

@Heph not similar to Hitler. He was elected to a representative democracy and then lied to the people. That's different, subtly so, but different. What I'm talking about is things like Hamas being elected in Gaza, the government in Darfur being 'elected', Hugo Chavez being 'elected', hell, even Saddam was 'elected.' When people, especially passionate people who, as Tenni pointed out, have been oppressed vote they do not always vote in their actual best interests, but in how they perceive them at the time.

If Hamas had said "vote for us and we'll kill ever Fatta member we can find" I don't think they would have been elected. Then again, they might have. Who knows. It's not like Palestine has any peaceful political organizations.

Pasa

[tenni]

Pasa & Darling (maybe DD...to go with LDD..lol)

As an American, myself, more specifically Canadian citizen of North American as opposed to a United States citizen of North America, I agree that I brought up Hammas as being democratically elected. To go off on a tangent about what a democracy is is not appropriate to this thread. Simply stated the Gazan people voted in this political party through appropriate procedures. Their government should be acknowledged as legitmately speaking for them. I personally, disagree with the Harper Conservatives representing me as my government as much as some of you want to see what you refer to as a terrorist group (Hammas) as a legitimate government. The Harper Conservatives are my government until voted out or a coalition kicks them out of government because the coalition has more seats in Parliament..(PLEASE...lol) The same applies to Hammas as the legitmately elected government of Gaza. Fatta is the legitimate government of Palestine.


Back to Hammas as the "true" democratically elected government of Gaza, the point is that it needs to be acknowledged. We may not like the terrorist activities that this group has done but they were democratically elected. It certainly is a mess though. I believe that my government has Hammas listed as a terrorist group but what do you do if such a group becomes the leader of a government? You acknowlege them. Most "bad" groups are not democratically elected or at least the ones that I can think of. USSR leaders were elected but there were questions about the lack of candidates. The leaders still spoke internationally for their government.

In this case, we have muddly waters. Israel did not seem to acknowledge which group was democratically elected because they still claim the territory as their own. (both Palestine and Gaza). The people living in both territories are not permitted to vote in an Israeli election(I think?). What are these people then? It seems more likely if you have an open mind we are really discussing Apartheid. Apartheid is defined in post 425. If you examine the Gaza situation in terms of whether some of our governments are supporting an Apartheid Israeli regime or not, it may become clearer for us.

Pasa
It may be very common where you live to use the term "true democracy" but I've never heard it from anyone who was not of a certain persuasion from the USA. Most, if not all, google references connect with US sites discussing their country.




Lessee Tenni, you brought up the idea of democratically elected government. So, it is a fair point of debate, which you now object to. In the courts that's called opening up the door, and your objection would be overruled.

BTW, the phrase 'True Democracy' has a very specific definition: that every person gets a vote. That there is no filter at all to prevent the oppression of the majority.

@Heph not similar to Hitler. He was elected to a representative democracy and then lied to the people. That's different, subtly so, but different. What I'm talking about is things like Hamas being elected in Gaza, the government in Darfur being 'elected', Hugo Chavez being 'elected', hell, even Saddam was 'elected.' When people, especially passionate people who, as Tenni pointed out, have been oppressed vote they do not always vote in their actual best interests, but in how they perceive them at the time.

If Hamas had said "vote for us and we'll kill ever Fatta member we can find" I don't think they would have been elected. Then again, they might have. Who knows. It's not like Palestine has any peaceful political organizations.




Pasa

[Canticle]

''ok...... for a start, I see multiple points of view.....thats why my posts are the way they are ..... I do not look at things in terms of right or wrong, black or white..... I look at things in terms of everybodies point of view...... hence I rarely sit in the forums and tell people they are wrong, or fundmentalist pro zionists etc......''

I think that others may see things in your posts, which you may not. To me, you come over as seeing things in black and white and fundamentalism, well, fundamentalist views are seen everywhere, in every subject. Like you....i call it as I see it.

''I posted the international humanitarian aid laws and then copied and pasted the part pertaining directly to the protest ship......because it applied to that ship.... then asked you to clarify your stance that it was piracy and war..... I was asking what international law you had read that I had not, that classed it as piracy and a act of war.....''

...and I told you that having read that document, I could see other sections and sub-sections, which which seemed to be appropriate, where the attack on the aid ships was concerned. No doubt there are many other international laws, which could be deemed ''appropriate'' under the circumstances.

I think and believe, it was piracy and an act of war and a cowardly act, carried out, at night, by heavily armed troops. OK!

''I have the opinion that a person that has served in the forces will have a understanding of a soldiers thinking, and way of doing things, .... thats something that you generally do not find in civilians... as they never find themselves rappelling down ropes and attacking ships.... soldiers do.....
a civilian may understand the aspects of protest and dealing with force while protesting, that is why I acknowledged darkeyes opinion... she has the experience of dealing with that aspect.....
unless you have looked down the barrel of a loaded gun, or pointed a loaded gun at a person.... most people have no idea what can go through a persons head, they can only quess''

I guess this means, that really and truly, it should only be people who have served in the forces and fought in wars, that decide when a country needs to go to war, or who should be fought. Yet, it can never be so. Civilians, whether they have served in the armed the forces or not, are elected to be our reprentatives in government and it is those civilians who will vote upon the idea of going to war and send professional soldiers to fight those wars.

And here I quote something, which I heard the actor, Steven Berkoff, recite. I don't know who wrote it.

''Wars are fought vicariously, by others, who do not wish their houses to be despoiled''

It's not good enough, to say, that only a person of this or that experience, can understand something, because this is real life and we don't all go through the same experiences, but we can still try to understand, something of what another human being has suffered, or gone through.

''as for what israel has or has not done, they are no different to any other country.... so i do not see them as any different .....''

No, they are no different and the country should be treated as ''just another country,'' and criticised when it does wrong. However there are folk and certain countries in the west, who do not seem to believe that this arrogant country should be criticised.

''the same with al queda.... they are no different to many other groups.... so i treat them no different.....''

Once upon a time certain people involved in Al Queda, were helped by certain countries in the west......armed....just as were Iraq and Iran. Then, they become the enemy. To many countries, Israel is the enemy, and many people are able to understand why, even if not agreeing with this stance.

''it is people that support or oppose them, that see the difference with them and apply the differences to them and other groups.....''

One person's terrorist, is another person's freedom fighter. Pre 1948, the Jewish agitators, in the then Palestine, were seen as terrorists. Many of those people went on to lead their country, after it had been created by the UN.

''I am happy to agree to diagree.... but it will not stop me asking questions and learning how others think......''

Good.

[Canticle]

I think you need to explain further....what you mean in your reply to Heph in post 437......but that is merely, my humble opinion, of course.

''I will break it down for you''

I thank you.........

''most countries will protest their own boundaries, but criticize other countries for doing the same thing.... or act in a manner that is contradictory....things like the detaining of civilians without right to trial or due course of justice.....''

Understood, understandable and also already known. We are human and therefore, do not always behave, as nations, with goodwill or generosity, or any care for our fellow human beings.

''( in nz, we held a person for 7 years at the request of the us, their own crime was to take pics of tourist locations, but they were held in detention as a suspected terrorist even tho they had no connection to any terrorist groups... yet the us frowns on other countries doing the same thing )''

How very odd, how unlawful that seems and how rather strange. I would have expected more from New Zealand. Ah, well!

''I support basic human rights.... but not equal rights.....''

Do you mean human rights and equal, depending upon situations.....as with indigenous populations, who may live a very different life, war situations, where the protection of the state has to come first...etc, etc, etc??

''a example is australia and the treatment of the aboriginals, they took a group of them, and put them in a housing complex.... and wondered why the hell they destroyed the place..... the answer is cos the aboriginals could not relate to the way we live, they had a different way of life, and when removed from that, they developed issues like alcoholism.....''

This is something that I am fully aware of, having read articles and watched many a documentary. To house a nomadic people, to try to restrict their movement, is/would be cruel, no matter what the race of the people.

Did you know the Australian Aboriginals, along with Native Americans, Inuit people, some Polynesians and a few others, have a genetic intolerance of alcohol? I have often wondered if the same, might also be true of Celts. However, I am not aware of any study, in this area.

''did you know that australia used to issue licenses to kill aboriginals...''

Oh, Yes.....I think a lot of people are aware of that and also how the very early settlers, used to ''hunt'' them.

''now you can not apply equal rights to everybody when each culture and race has a different way of doing things, and require different levels of rights......''

I think that it is fairly obvious that exceptions will always have to be made and for the reasons stated.

''hence you get things like no head coverings in banks but muslim females arguing that they should not have to uncover their heads as part of their beliefs require them to be covered.....''

The covering of heads and bodies is not exclusive to Islam, so it is a cultural aspect of life, which has been turned into, or deemed a very necessary part of the religious belief. Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair and only allow their husbands to see it. The more wealthy Jewish women tend to wear wigs, which one wouldn't even notice were wigs. I once watched a documenary about a group of ultra orthodox Jewish women, who lived in Jerusalem. These women not only wore wigs, but also shaved their heads.

Cultural behaviour, with a long history, is so often mistaken for religious belief.

''you can not make everybody equal while granting exemptions to the rules for different people and groups... it creates unequality''

That is why we need democracies and governments who will pass laws which treat certain things in a sensitive manner, whilst still ensuring human rights.

''as for dictators and democracy..... in the olde ways, a gathering of chiefs ( in iceland 930 AD I think it was ) was the first parliament....
the chiefs were charged with the responsibility of upholding justice and balanced interaction in their respective tribes.....
so you has a dictatorship answering to a democratic style parliament where disputes and issues were resolved by a group elected by the chiefs.....
now in those days, everybody had a voice in the tribe as a tribe was built around team work''

Yep......sorta know about things like that....history being a passion 'n' all.

''in todays terms, it would be the united nations.... but using countries, not tribes.... but the issue lays with the ruling person / parties of each country.... they now lack the balanced support system of tribal unity.... as there is too many people and opinions and that allows a ruling person / party, to make the rules as they go along.....
and rather than sort it out so the * tribe * works together again as a co-hesive unit.... they go with the majority.......
hence you end up with a splintered society with different groups pushing different agendas.......''

Well ain't that obvious!

Unfortunately...those countries represented at the UN, are full of tribal peoples. With the permanent members of the Security Council, obviosly having joint and individual allies.....everything is always going to get screwed up. Can't see it changing........(no Gene Roddenberry style Federation of Planets type working together......and eventually that had to fail).......we're human!

By the way....what has any of that, got to do, with the Israelis storming an aid ship?

[Canticle]

Heph and Tenni...thank you for your interesting and intelligent posts. However, what ever any of us, who are critical of Israel, may say, will not change the opinions of the pro-Israelis. I fear, that for some, it would not matter what Israel did and that is what I find most disturbing.

DD.....do you honestly believe that Israel should never receive criticism? For that is how it comes across.

Israel was created in 1948.....created and a homeland for Jews then existed. There were already Jews living in what was known, at the time, as Palestine. Christians and Muslims and probably people from other religions, lived there too. The land was homeland to those people. People who were part of the indigenous population of the region, or who had lived there for only a few generations. It was home.

With the creation of Israel, many thousands of people became displaced and ended up in refugee camps. Tented camps and I remember seeing film of these when I was a teenager...a young teenager. How was it right to create a homeland for one people and displace another people, from what they considered their homeland???

These Christian and Muslim Palestinians were not nomads, like Pasa suggested in one sentence...and back in 1948...as if that is such a long time ago. Palestinians were uprooted from their homelands...forced into exile and an artificially created land, was then allowed to bring in, as immigrants, Jews from across the world. Jews, whose ancestors had left the Middle East generation, upon generation before, the ancestors marrying into local communities, as does happen and so, as Fran rightly stated, although Jewish, their bloodline is less semitic than the Palestinian people who became displaced.

Jews in the UK, certain parts of Europe, including the UK and many other countries, where these Jewish communities, lived in perfect harmony, with other people, already had homelands. They were already Americans, British, etc. It is perfectly understandable, that those Jews, left in places like Germany and Poland and other Eastern European countries, which had seen the genocide, felt that they wanted to be in Israel instead of what had once been home. However, not even the genocide and persecution of one people makes it right and correct to create an artificial state and thereby displace another people, namely the Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim.

Israel has been attacked and defended itself well. It has proven, that it is a country, however it was created and deserves to be recognised.....but what about the displaced Palestinians? What about there right to a homeland?

Israel is a state, in the Middle East, in Asia, populated by mainly European Jews and surrounded by countries populated by both semitic and aryan peoples. It's an artificail and unnatural creation and yet it exists and should be recognised as doing do, by all other countries. But, I somehow think, that if it had not been for the importing of European, American etc Jews and the support and financial aid of the country's biggest fan and also financial aid from wealthy jews and jewish organisations, the country might not have lasted too long.

To me, it is wrong to support a country just because of what it's people may have suffered in the past. Where is the homeland for Gypsies, a people still oppressed and loathed and often their name given to any group of itinerant travellers. I always correct people, when they call Irish itinerant travellers (tinkers), or New Age travellers, Gypsies. I know a lot of people with Romany Gypsy, ancestry and like Jews, they are a race.

The Palestinians are Arab.....a race...a people....displaced, against there will....given no homeland.....there land taken by Jews, even after it was not meant to happen...even Jewish settlers deciding that they have the right to ''invade'' Arab sections of Jerusalem and build homes. They have seen their land taken...a wall built acoss it...they have been excluded from areas. Don't you think that they have a right to be angry?

What did the UN and it's member nations care about the Palestinians. Nothing at all. 1948 saw a people displaced and in 1967 and long after, many were still living in tented communities. That is wrong.

Things have to be put into perspective. You may believe Hammas to be terrorist, others in this world....especially Palestinians, who see no one really giving a damn about them... do not. There are many people and many countries, who think that the state of Israel, sometimes behaves in a terrorist, anti-semitic and anti-freedom manner. It doesn't mean that those countries and people don't want there to be a state of Israel.

Terrorism has always existed. Terrorists sometimes become leaders of a country with a democratic system of government...sometimes a dictatorship....but dictators fall. The mainland UK suffered terrorist attacks for years as did Northern Ireland, from the IRA. Eventually (and even now things are not perfect), terrorism was seen, not to work. The terrorists were a minority, when compared to the thousands of people, who wished to live peacefully. What a shame people with Irish ancestry, who sent money to Ireland, didn't understand, for the most part, where the money was going and what those terrorists used to do. So many things, which happened, probably didn't get reported in foreign lands.

I would never support terrorism.....by rebels or the state...where innocents are hurt and killed. If the Palestinians commit attrocities, it should be condemned. If israel does the same, it should be condemned.

This is the 21st century and to support a country, just because it's race may have been persecuted for centuries, does not make sense to me. The past we cannot change and we know that the persecution and eradication of any people is wrong. The present can be used to make a different future, but not if the bad behaviour of a state in found acceptable, merely because of history.

[darkeyes]

please be open minded about the facts over there. one of which is that this blockade is a military response to a threat. the gazans need but to let israel be and there will not be a problem. now that you've asked and I've put my 2 cents in, let's remember what this site is about..and that's not politics. I'll pray for these folks on both sides.

The threat as you put it is a quasi military response to a military threat.. but from the Israeli Government's point of view and many in Israel their response is a military response to a threat.. thats being fair.. not hinting that israel alone are responding to a threat..that is much less than fair..

...and so.. you are one of those who think all this site should talk about are bisexual issues.. shagging.. sucking.. licking..porn.. who fucks who and why.. bisexuals (of which I am not one, although my partner most certainly is) are a cross section of all political and moral views.. they have much more to offer this world than just issues on sex and sexuality.. it does us, the LGBT movement no favours if all we can talk about are issues which are immediately pertinent to our sexuality.. debates on issues such as abortion, paedophilia, rape and the likes of what does one do to make anal sex easier or does one swallow or spit or like facials are important to many.. arguably all. But we have minds and many of us, I would argue most of us like to use them and it is important for the world to know not just what our views are on sex and sexuality, but also the greater issues of the day.. Gaza being but one.. it is important to show that we are not simply sex mad perverts as many seem to think, but are every bit as compassionate and rounded individuals as any in straight society.. that is the value of debating the great issues which concern our world.. we are much much more than sex mad and that we are not depraved.. and we fail ourselves if we do not show that face to the wider world.. and being a bisexual site.. are you also of the opinion that straight people of whom there are many on site, or gay men and women (of whom I am one) should not contribute to .com? Because that is another consequence of your argument. We have more in common than we do not and we discard allies at our peril..

[DuckiesDarling]

Snogs Fran and says welcome back me love :)

[DuckiesDarling]

Well, let's see Canticle I could be a right bitch and break down every little thing you said like you do other people and then say it has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll just say I stand by what I said, it's easy to point fingers when you don't face anything coming close to what they do just to live each day. So keep reading all the news and logging on to sites to state your opinions but remember that there are real people involved on both sides and hypothetical rhetoric will never solve any problem least of all the one in Gaza.

And if you don't believe Hamas are terrorists, then just invite them to your next family get together. They love the "infidels" as well.

[Canticle]

The threat as you put it is a quasi military response to a military threat.. but from the Israeli Government's point of view and many in Israel their response is a military response to a threat.. thats being fair.. not hinting that israel alone are responding to a threat..that is much less than fair..

...and so.. you are one of those who think all this site should talk about are bisexual issues.. shagging.. sucking.. licking..porn.. who fucks who and why.. bisexuals (of which I am not one, although my partner most certainly is) are a cross section of all political and moral views.. they have much more to offer this world than just issues on sex and sexuality.. it does us, the LGBT movement no favours if all we can talk about are issues which are immediately pertinent to our sexuality.. debates on issues such as abortion, paedophilia, rape and the likes of what does one do to make anal sex easier or does one swallow or spit or like facials are important to many.. arguably all. But we have minds and many of us, I would argue most of us like to use them and it is important for the world to know not just what our views are on sex and sexuality, but also the greater issues of the day.. Gaza being but one.. it is important to show that we are not simply sex mad perverts as many seem to think, but are every bit as compassionate and rounded individuals as any in straight society.. that is the value of debating the great issues which concern our world.. we are much much more than sex mad and that we are not depraved.. and we fail ourselves if we do not show that face to the wider world.. and being a bisexual site.. are you also of the opinion that straight people of whom there are many on site, or gay men and women (of whom I am one) should not contribute to .com? Because that is another consequence of your argument. We have more in common than we do not and we discard allies at our peril..

Welcome back Fran and what an excellent retort. Hope you had a good time last week.

[tenni]

I was watching a report on CBCnewsworld over a statement that has been made by the NDP deputy leader. She stated that Israel has occupied the territory since 1948. This has caused quite the to do with demands that she resign. Her follow up statement was that she has always believed in a two state solution between Israel and Palestine.

I do wonder if that is what we are ranting on about. Some seem to accept only one country and that is Israel. They are willing to tolerate that some people in this territory do not have human rights nor voting rights in Israel. Is this really about whether you support a two state solution or one state solution?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Canticle practices moral equivalence. Because she opposes the creation of Israel, anything done to Israel is justified. Any wrong done is justified with 'they shouldn't have been there im the first place.'

The argument goes further to say that from the Palestinian POV they are freedom fighters. She neglects that thos fighters kill children in elementary schools and never select military targets. It further neglects that Israel has offered Palestine peace. They have rejected it every time. When this is pointed to Can'ticle she falls back to her primary argument against Israel's right to exist.

Canticle is against Israel's right to exist. I'd use the A word to describe this in anyone else. But she might report me if I do. All I can say is that her arguments and her logic pattern walk like an anti-Semitic duck.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Is this really about whether you support a two state solution or one state solution?

Yes, but exactly opposite of the way you posted.

Some people believe in a two nation solution. Others support a one nation solution: one where Israel is wiped off the map and Jews are exterminated...again.

We can see this because the rationale for Palestine rejecting the peace offered again, and again, and again, is that they will not be satisfied with a solution where Israel exists. It's in the Hamas charter. Like, not even hidden, either. Plainly written, black and white.

So, yes, we are arguing about one state vs. two. And as long as the Palestinians hold that Israel has no right to exist, I will support Israel in whatever they have to do to project force in order to gain security.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

The threat as you put it is a quasi military response to a military threat.. but from the Israeli Government's point of view and many in Israel their response is a military response to a threat.. thats being fair.. not hinting that israel alone are responding to a threat..that is much less than fair..

Since when is it about being fair? There is no moral equivalence. Israel responds to a threat. Period. That threat sided with the attackers in the 6 day war and they lost. They lost their land. Boo hoo. Their own fault there.

Now they fire rockets into Israel, blow up public places, put pipe bombs in cars, buses, fire randomly into crowded areas. They don't select military targets. These are not an opposing military force. They are well funded thugs whose idea of resistance is to kill civilians. That's not resistance. That's terrorism. I don't give a damn what the conditions in Gaza are. They are a: their own fucking fault, and b: still no justification for what their actions and choices.

The path to peace is clear. Palestine does not want peace. They could have it all. Peace, rebuilding, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, the works. Israel has offered them a path to nationhood on a silver platter. But, they don't want that. They'd rather be martyrs. I'm ok with that, personally. I'm generally ok with assisting people who wish to be martyrs on their chosen career path.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Well, let's see Canticle I could be a right bitch and break down every little thing you said like you do other people and then say it has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll just say I stand by what I said, it's easy to point fingers when you don't face anything coming close to what they do just to live each day. So keep reading all the news and logging on to sites to state your opinions but remember that there are real people involved on both sides and hypothetical rhetoric will never solve any problem least of all the one in Gaza.

And if you don't believe Hamas are terrorists, then just invite them to your next family get together. They love the "infidels" as well.

That would be up to you DD. I just do things my way and never to be a bitch. I could never be that kind of person.

You're quite right.....real people are involved......Palestinian and Israeli.....Christian, Muslim and Jew. I really don't think that Christian Palestinians see people...who are Christian....from other races as infidels....and somehow, I wouldn't think that most of the Muslim civilians, would think that way. They just want to live happily, in peace.

Once again, you mention Israel doing what it has to do, on a daily basis to stay alive. Albeit that there is terrorist activity, I'd reckon on the average Jew in Israel, having a more comfortable life than most Palestinians.

Israel has the capability, to bomb a country to pieces and did that in Lebanon not long ago. The history which has helped cause the present situation in the Middle East is important.

I see you condemn Hammas and other terrorist factions but do not see you condemn some of the things Israel does. Israel is not just defending itself. Israel does do things, which could be considered wrong.

I asked, was it not wrong to displace one people, to create a country for another people. You don't state whether or not, you think that was wrong. I think it was and so do many others.

This is not denying the right of the state of Israel to exist. It is questioning what the UN did, in 1948 and as a result, this has led to the present problems in the Middle East.

By the way...when did I say that Hammas was not a terrorist organisation? What I have said, is that one person's terrorist, is another person's freedom fighter and I also stated that many that have been called terrorists, have ended up ruling democracies. Nothing I stated was hypothetical.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation are, some things are clear....terrorism is wrong, because innocents die....whether that terrorism be committed by an organisation like Al Queda, or Hammas, which has won elections, individuals, with their own agenda, or by a recognised state and we know from recent history, that sovereign governments can commit state terrorism and slaughter there own.

Also, what is wrong (and no one seems to know, how to put right, what the UN did in 1948), is that a people, who had a homeland, were uprooted from those homelands. That was wrong. very wrong. It will always be wrong.

[Canticle]

Since when is it about being fair? There is no moral equivalence. Israel responds to a threat. Period. That threat sided with the attackers in the 6 day war and they lost. They lost their land. Boo hoo. Their own fault there.

Now they fire rockets into Israel, blow up public places, put pipe bombs in cars, buses, fire randomly into crowded areas. They don't select military targets. These are not an opposing military force. They are well funded thugs whose idea of resistance is to kill civilians. That's not resistance. That's terrorism. I don't give a damn what the conditions in Gaza are. They are a: their own fucking fault, and b: still no justification for what their actions and choices.

The path to peace is clear. Palestine does not want peace. They could have it all. Peace, rebuilding, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, the works. Israel has offered them a path to nationhood on a silver platter. But, they don't want that. They'd rather be martyrs. I'm ok with that, personally. I'm generally ok with assisting people who wish to be martyrs on their chosen career path.

Pasa

What a very 'Christian' way of looking at things!!!!!

[Pasadenacpl2]

Those people you claim were displaced had only been 'a people' since 1917, and even then not until 1921 did they start asking to be nationalized. Palestine has never existed as a nation. In fact, several scholars note that Palestinian nationalism only arose as a direct result of Jewish immigration to the area.

In fact, in 1919, Syria claimed the Palestinian people as a part of Arab Syria. "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds." So, if anyone has rejected the Palestinians, it has been Syria.

But, let's look even further back. Before Israel, England ruled it as a part of the British Mandate. Before that it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. And, most people forget, in 1948 it wasn't Israel who took over the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan and Egypt, respectively after their attempt to destroy Israel failed took over those areas. It wasn't until 5 nations decided to surround Israel and attack it, that Israel took that land as spoils of war.

So...for more than 200 years that area of land has been ruled by someone else. Hell, Israel is the only group EVER to say to Palestine that it would like Palestine to have it's own nation. And they get rocket attacks as thanks.

As for my Christianity, if you, Cunticle, wish to be my judge, you go right ahead. I would be wary, however. My God takes a VERY dim view of people trying to do His job.

Pasa

[Canticle]

''Canticle practices moral equivalence. Because she opposes the creation of Israel, anything done to Israel is justified. Any wrong done is justified with 'they shouldn't have been there im the first place.' ''

Yes...surprise...surprise.....I do practice that......but not for what you insinuate. I believe in human rights for all and equality. Is that difficult to understand?

I have said that I believe that the artificial creation, of the State of Israel, in 1948, was wrong. How does that have me saying that anything that is done to Israel, is justified. Once again you twist words, to create your own meaning.

''The argument goes further to say that from the Palestinian POV they are freedom fighters. She neglects that thos fighters kill children in elementary schools and never select military targets. It further neglects that Israel has offered Palestine peace. They have rejected it every time. When this is pointed to Can'ticle she falls back to her primary argument against Israel's right to exist.''

I did not say that they were freedom fighters, or that I saw them as such. I said that very often, one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter. A very different thing. I did not say that any terrorists were freedom fighters.

The terrorists kill the innocent and retalliation does the same thing. In Iraq terrorists are killing fellow Muslims, when they set off bombs, innocent men, women and children. There are no winners.

Tell me something....Why should the Palestinians accept peace....on Israel's terms. Anything Israel wants to reject, it does, but apparently this is OK.

And I will fall back on the same argument, about the creation of the state of Israel. Unfortunately, we have no idea of knowing, what the Middle East today, would be like, had Israel, not been created.

Israel exists. Other states must recognise this and a proper homeland must be established for the Palestinians. It wasn't the innocent men, women and children, who lost wars. They are the ones stuck in the middle and the ones to suffer.

''Canticle is against Israel's right to exist. I'd use the A word to describe this in anyone else. But she might report me if I do. All I can say is that her arguments and her logic pattern walk like an anti-Semitic duck.

Pasa''

You are wrong. I hope that the state of Israel will last for a long time and prosper and in due course that there will be peace in the area and all the people will get along with one another. I'm just able to see (as do many), that this state of Israel, that so many jump up and defend, is not perfect and just as likely to do wrong.

I really don't know what the 'A' word would be, but you go ahead and use it....Ah, you mean anti-semitic. How can I be anti-semitic ........I would have to be anti-semitic towards Arabs and people from many other races. Anti-Semitism, though used to describe anti Jewish, views, is not something which can be applied to the Jewish race, alone. Google Semite. It might give you some information. Shem, the son of Noah, might be mentioned.

And Pasa....I never waddle.....I walk from my hips....not my knees. That is how ladies should walk, with a straight back and head held high.

When I was a teenager and into my very early 20s, I used to believe in the cause of Zion. I had this idea, that as a Christian, I had to believe in it. Then, I got older and realised other things. I believe in the right of the state of Israel to exist, now that it does, but I also believe in the rights of the Palestinians, to have a homeland and not one which Israel dictates.

So cut out the cracks about anti-semitism. You have no idea what I believe in, or what I would do, in however big, or small a way, to fight for those beliefs and the rights of others.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I can only go by your words here. You want me to have a different view, quit bitching about the creation of Israel and using that as a way to justify the actions of Palestine.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? No. Terrorists select civilian targets and random targets. Fighters, soldiers, select military and strategic targets. Soldiers fight other soldiers. Terrorists just want to kill things indiscriminately. Don't insult men and women who stand a post honorably by equating them with terrorists. They are nothing alike.

Any attempt to paint the Terrorist organization Hamas as anything but terrorists is based upon a lie. You either support that lie, or you denounce it.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There isn't much that can be criticised in Canitcles post #452. Possibly one or two facts missing.

The UN move to set up Israel was spearheaded by the USA for honorable reasons. The pre-existing Palestinians were promised the same land by the British for honorable reasons. The two honorables seem not to have taken each other into consideration.

The Jews resorted to terrorism and violence themselves e.g. the Stern Gang.

Terrorism does work and there are many examples of this around the world. Often the organised defeated country relabels them as an army. The captains of the terrorists often end up in power as government officials e.g. Israel.

WOuld be new Israelis were themselves put into camps by the British to reduce the pressure. Others sought temprary refuge on Cyprus.

.

[Canticle]

Those people you claim were displaced had only been 'a people' since 1917, and even then not until 1921 did they start asking to be nationalized. Palestine has never existed as a nation. In fact, several scholars note that Palestinian nationalism only arose as a direct result of Jewish immigration to the area.

In fact, in 1919, Syria claimed the Palestinian people as a part of Arab Syria. "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds." So, if anyone has rejected the Palestinians, it has been Syria.

But, let's look even further back. Before Israel, England ruled it as a part of the British Mandate. Before that it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. And, most people forget, in 1948 it wasn't Israel who took over the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan and Egypt, respectively after their attempt to destroy Israel failed took over those areas. It wasn't until 5 nations decided to surround Israel and attack it, that Israel took that land as spoils of war.

So...for more than 200 years that area of land has been ruled by someone else. Hell, Israel is the only group EVER to say to Palestine that it would like Palestine to have it's own nation. And they get rocket attacks as thanks.

As for my Christianity, if you, Cunticle, wish to be my judge, you go right ahead. I would be wary, however. My God takes a VERY dim view of people trying to do His job.

Pasa

We know the history........and you are one insulting man. You really are. I have nothing to be wary of, Pasa. No God is going to send down thunderbolts, or exclude me from any heaven, or send me to any hell. Some of the comments you have made, about the Palestinians deserving their fate, are not the sort of thing that I would expect to hear from the mouth of, or see typed by the fingers of a Christain, who loves their fellow humans.

I love my fellow human beings, all of them, good or bad, whatever their race, creed, colour, or sexuality. I would not like to be the kind of Christian, who says some of the things, you have said about the Palestinians.

[Canticle]

I can only go by your words here. You want me to have a different view, quit bitching about the creation of Israel and using that as a way to justify the actions of Palestine.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? No. Terrorists select civilian targets and random targets. Fighters, soldiers, select military and strategic targets. Soldiers fight other soldiers. Terrorists just want to kill things indiscriminately. Don't insult men and women who stand a post honorably by equating them with terrorists. They are nothing alike.

Any attempt to paint the Terrorist organization Hamas as anything but terrorists is based upon a lie. You either support that lie, or you denounce it.

Pasa


Tell me why the Jews in Palestine, prior to 1948, who carried out certain acts, the kind that the israelis now fight, were called terrorists. They didn't they were terrorists, but others thought different and considered those Jewish activists, to be terrorists.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Nope...pretty much everyone considered them to be terrorists. The Stern Gang, who Heph mentioned, even said outright that they were using terrorism.

Go ahead and ignore the fact that the British ruled them at that time. Hell, want to talk about abuse? Holy fuck did you Brits abuse the shit out of Palestine. And didn't even have the decency to take them as a part of the British Empire formally? Rejected their request for citizenship status? Removed their rights to protest? In 2 years the British killed 5k Palistinians and wounded 15k more. And that's in the 40s with 40s technology! Holy shit, good thing the Brits didn't have modern technology.

I'll say it again: for 200 years this land has been occupied by others. Israel are the only ones who offered them their own land. And they get rockets in their fucking nurseries as a payment?

The fact that Israel hasn't shown ALL of Palestine the way to martyrdom only shows that Israel is a far better nation than the UK is.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

We know the history........

If you know the history, then why do you keep misstating it? *scratches head*


and you are one insulting man. You really are. I have nothing to be wary of, Pasa. No God is going to send down thunderbolts, or exclude me from any heaven, or send me to any hell. Some of the comments you have made, about the Palestinians deserving their fate, are not the sort of thing that I would expect to hear from the mouth of, or see typed by the fingers of a Christain, who loves their fellow humans.

I love my fellow human beings, all of them, good or bad, whatever their race, creed, colour, or sexuality. I would not like to be the kind of Christian, who says some of the things, you have said about the Palestinians.

I am, indeed, insulting to those who deserve my derision. You want to judge me, and throw my religion in my face? That's fine. Be prepared to get it right back, Cunticle.

And yes, as long as the Palestinians reject peace in order to maintain their Jihad, then they get what they deserve. I'm a huge supporter of a two state solution. I'm also in favor of blasting the shit out of Palestine for as long as it wishes to continue the conflict.

I'm a big believer in allowing stupid people to do stupid things to remove themselves from the gene pool. If the Palestinian people wish to remove themselves from the gene pool en masse, I'm all for it. It isn't that I want them to die. I'm just completely for the freedom to be stupid, and the freedom to die for it. Palestine should be given a collective Darwin award.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

From Wiki

".......Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈleχi], Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," לח"י - לוחמי חרות ישראל) was an armed underground Zionist group in the British Mandate of Palestine.[1] Its goal was to forcibly evict the British authorities from Palestine, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel.[2] The Lehi is also commonly referred to, after its founder, Avraham Stern, as the Stern Group or Stern Gang.[3]......."

.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Also in that wiki is that the Stern Gang openly called what they did terrorism. Further, only one member of the Stern Gang ever went into politics. They got one seat in 1949. That's it. So, to say that Israel was founded upon them, and that they later went on to run the joint would be incorrect.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

It is not fair to say that the British abused the ...... out of the Palestinians.

The British did grant independance to the greater part of "The Palestine" to form a number of its own countries. Britain did know when to let go rather than bomb the indigenous peoples sensless and try to sell them cola and jeans.

Perhaps one should focus on the fact that it was the rump of "The Palestine" that has caused the problem. Coincidentally this rump was the original land understood to be Palestine historically. The arabs were reluctant to let the land be partitioned and for them to be excluded from their former territory.

Some have seen that as a spreading neoplasia.

.

[Canticle]

If you know the history, then why do you keep misstating it? *scratches head*



I am, indeed, insulting to those who deserve my derision. You want to judge me, and throw my religion in my face? That's fine. Be prepared to get it right back, Cunticle.

And yes, as long as the Palestinians reject peace in order to maintain their Jihad, then they get what they deserve. I'm a huge supporter of a two state solution. I'm also in favor of blasting the shit out of Palestine for as long as it wishes to continue the conflict.

I'm a big believer in allowing stupid people to do stupid things to remove themselves from the gene pool. If the Palestinian people wish to remove themselves from the gene pool en masse, I'm all for it. It isn't that I want them to die. I'm just completely for the freedom to be stupid, and the freedom to die for it. Palestine should be given a collective Darwin award.

Pasa

Sheesh.......you are so unbelievably, unbelieveable. You really are.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Thank you. I try.

Pasa

[Bluebiyou]

It's tough no matter how you call it.
Yes, the establishment/revolutionary effort of Israel in the 1940's included a slightly toned down version of modern terrorism.
Multiple telephone calls warning of a bomb in the King David Hotel vs. unannounced rockets landing randomly.
Ninety something people were killed and about half that wounded; and the King David Hotel bombing was quite (if I remember my history) influential in the British abandoning Palestine and leaving rule to the Israelis.
In addition, the 6 day war raped any non Jewish civilian of property and rights (but sometimes not life). The Israel entry to civilian property was the similar as Jews were treated in WWII Europe; "you no longer live here, gather your possessions and leave now." I don't recall reports of Jews executing Palestinian civilians, but as normal in war, it probably happened.
But coming back up to date.
Iran has no business running any Jewish blockade; it's a purely opportunistic political stage on the part of Iran. These guys should be fired upon entering Israel waters.
Ireland, etc. do so at risk of arrest.
Uh, Ireland and many other nations are clearly on a humanitarian, not political venture. I am pretty sure Ireland has no political aspirations in Israel.
But like the historic naval blockade by the United States of America - of the Confederate States of America in the 1860's... Does an aggressor have the right to blockade?

[darkeyes]

If you know the history, then why do you keep misstating it? *scratches head*



I am, indeed, insulting to those who deserve my derision. You want to judge me, and throw my religion in my face? That's fine. Be prepared to get it right back, Cunticle.

And yes, as long as the Palestinians reject peace in order to maintain their Jihad, then they get what they deserve. I'm a huge supporter of a two state solution. I'm also in favor of blasting the shit out of Palestine for as long as it wishes to continue the conflict.

I'm a big believer in allowing stupid people to do stupid things to remove themselves from the gene pool. If the Palestinian people wish to remove themselves from the gene pool en masse, I'm all for it. It isn't that I want them to die. I'm just completely for the freedom to be stupid, and the freedom to die for it. Palestine should be given a collective Darwin award.

Pasa

By referring to Canticle as you do, Pasa.. you throw your religion back in your own face... and the rest of your comments just show that such as it is.. your religion is obviously so important to you that its message of compassion and love for humankind means nothing and is lost on you .. your saviour, Pasa, would indeed be very proud.. but don't worry about it.. I am sure he will forgive you your sins.. not that you give a bugger about saviour, forgiveness or humanity.. not if any of them get in the way of a good macho breast beating...

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/blair-hails-deal-with-netanyahu-to-ease-gaza-blockade-1.296412


It contains three main elements: formulation of a blacklist of goods and supplies that will not be allowed into Gaza, particularly items that could be put to use in manufacturing weapons; Israel’s acquiescence to the entry of building materials for UN-sponsored construction projects; and Israel’s agreement to consider stationing European Union as well as Palestinian Authority monitors at border crossings to inspect incoming goods.

[darkeyes]

Nope...pretty much everyone considered them to be terrorists. The Stern Gang, who Heph mentioned, even said outright that they were using terrorism.

Go ahead and ignore the fact that the British ruled them at that time. Hell, want to talk about abuse? Holy fuck did you Brits abuse the shit out of Palestine. And didn't even have the decency to take them as a part of the British Empire formally? Rejected their request for citizenship status? Removed their rights to protest? In 2 years the British killed 5k Palistinians and wounded 15k more. And that's in the 40s with 40s technology! Holy shit, good thing the Brits didn't have modern technology.

I'll say it again: for 200 years this land has been occupied by others. Israel are the only ones who offered them their own land. And they get rockets in their fucking nurseries as a payment?

The fact that Israel hasn't shown ALL of Palestine the way to martyrdom only shows that Israel is a far better nation than the UK is.

Pasa
Britain was shitty to many in its Empire Pasa..even its own citizens.... no arguments from me about that.. divide and rule, bomb, kill, rape, pillage and plunder oppress and repress.. yep hun they did it all.. mostly ordinary Britons saw it as white Christian civilisation improving and freeing the world.. yep they really believed it.. the powers that be had no such illusions..they knew it for what it was and that was their plan.. and Church and State, business and Media, and much literature all played their part in the propaganda war which made the ordinary citizen of the UK believe what Britain did was righteous to be so.. the vast majority of Britons no longer believe that to be so..

.. I don't suppose you see any parallels in another "great" nation doing much the same thing in the present century?

..

[Pasadenacpl2]

By referring to Canticle as you do, Pasa.. you throw your religion back in your own face... and the rest of your comments just show that such as it is.. your religion is obviously so important to you that its message of compassion and love for humankind means nothing and is lost on you .. your saviour, Pasa, would indeed be very proud.. but don't worry about it.. I am sure he will forgive you your sins.. not that you give a bugger about saviour, forgiveness or humanity.. not if any of them get in the way of a good macho breast beating...

Nice. Could you name one thing in my arguments you've discussed, rather than merely attacking me personally? I notice that not one of the things I've said gets anyone's notice other than me calling her Cunticle.

Don't like it? Stop attacking me. It's pretty simple. Canticle decided to attack me, personally. She got it back. In spades. And she'll continue to get it back until she decides to stop attacking me personally.

Oh...wow. Sorta like the Palestinians. Oh SNAP!

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Nice. Could you name one thing in my arguments you've discussed, rather than merely attacking me personally? I notice that not one of the things I've said gets anyone's notice other than me calling her Cunticle.

Don't like it? Stop attacking me. It's pretty simple. Canticle decided to attack me, personally. She got it back. In spades. And she'll continue to get it back until she decides to stop attacking me personally.

Oh...wow. Sorta like the Palestinians. Oh SNAP!

Pasa

If you act and speak like an arse and a bully you get spoken to like an arse and a bully...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Britain was shitty to many in its Empire Pasa..even its own citizens.... no arguments from me about that.. divide and rule, bomb, kill, rape, pillage and plunder oppress and repress.. yep hun they did it all.. mostly ordinary Britons saw it as white Christian civilisation improving and freeing the world.. yep they really believed it.. the powers that be had no such illusions..they knew it for what it was and that was their plan.. and Church and State, business and Media, and much literature all played their part in the propaganda war which made the ordinary citizen of the UK believe what Britain did was righteous to be so.. the vast majority of Britons no longer believe that to be so..

.. I don't suppose you see any parallels in another "great" nation doing much the same thing in the present century?

..

I'll just put it this way, lady. My nation is, indeed, great. It is far superior to yours, in almost every way.

The only thing you can claim to be better at than us is Soccer....

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01658/robert-green_1658620c.jpg

PWND

If you want to play dirty with nationalism (while claiming to eschew it) you go ahead. It won't get you anywhere with me. As for parallels, the US wields far more power than Britain ever had, and does so far more benevolently than Britain ever dreamed.

Now...if you would like to get back to the actual discussion, we can do that. If you would like to continue being catty and attacking my nation, we can do that too. The choice is yours. If you would like peace, you have but to stop. If you would like to continue this, that choice is yours too...

...sorta like the Palestinians.
Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

If you act and speak like an arse and a bully you get spoken to like an arse and a bully...

I'm a bully, now? No. Canticle is not weak, or in need of protection. I'm just better at this than she is. She stepped in the ring, of her own accord. She left it earlier, and I didn't even offer a parting shot. She stepped back in of her own accord, knowing full well that doing so would put her in the action again.

And her return to the ring was to attack me, without provocation, and without discussing the actual thread. Just an attack on me. Typical. Someone picks a fight, gets their ass handed to them, and you defend them.

Sorta like the Palestinians.

Pasa

[Canticle]

If you act and speak like an arse and a bully you get spoken to like an arse and a bully...

Doesn't matter what one might say to Pas, Fran, he is going to come back at people using insults or vulgar language. It's all very immature. He doesn't like being told that what he says in some of his posts, is not behaving in a very Christian manner. It that hits a raw nerve, then maybe he knows that it's the truth.

[Pasadenacpl2]

You could stop it, if you wished. I'll stop when you do.

Sorta like the Palestinians.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

I'll just put it this way, lady. My nation is, indeed, great. It is far superior to yours, in almost every way.

The only thing you can claim to be better at than us is Soccer....

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01658/robert-green_1658620c.jpg

PWND

If you want to play dirty with nationalism (while claiming to eschew it) you go ahead. It won't get you anywhere with me. As for parallels, the US wields far more power than Britain ever had, and does so far more benevolently than Britain ever dreamed.

That you are not OUR colony is proof of that.

Now...if you would like to get back to the actual discussion, we can do that. If you would like to continue being catty and attacking my nation, we can do that too. The choice is yours. If you would like peace, you have but to stop. If you would like to continue this, that choice is yours too...

...sorta like the Palestinians.
Pasa

If you wish to believe all that Pasa fine.. there is some truth in it... I cant and wont deny it.. much less than you think.. but from out of your cyber gob rolls the arrogance and jingoistic claptrap that less than a century ago rolled out of the gobs of my great grandparents, and even more recently out of at of one Grandparent.. it is rather unedifying but I don't mind.. but it isn't cattiness that makes me speak as I do about anyone or anything.. merely a dislike of things I find and belive to be wrong.. you can attack my nation or anyone elses all you like.. mine is shitty in so many ways.. and in the next few years it will get shittier.. now there is a prediction for you.. but just as I criticise my nation for its wrongs and its ills.. I'm fucked if when I see something yours does or anyone elses which I think is wrong, then just as you rip into mine my dear, I expect to be allowed the same privilege in respect of yours.. the difference is however, I am under no illusions whatsoever about mine..

PS Rob Greens lil error against the US? I dont know why you put up the picture.. it gave me at least as many laughs as it gave any American.. I'm not English and sadly my country isn't in South Africa.. and no the US isn't as good as England by a long way when it comes to football.. but don't feel too downhearted about it.. you are a bloody sight better than is Scotland.. these days it seems so many are.. but that doesn't stop me loving the game.. now that should cheer you up no end..

[Pasadenacpl2]

I rip my nation plenty. I'm on a ton of other boards where I criticize my nation a ton.

Y'all would get to see that if you would stop attacking the US long enough to allow it. You spend so much time making crass comments about the US that I, and others, have to spend our time defending our nation. You make snide little remarks, sometimes you get subtle, but it stands that you, and others, spend an awful lot of time no matter what the topic is, attacking the US.

Just like in any family, I'll fight my brother and argue with him, but no one else will.

Pasa

[tenni]

Pasa
No dude. You have crossed a line with the name calling. Please calm yourself down a bit. Discuss the issues. If calling you a Christian is what upset you to the point of name calling a woman, I don't know. That is not what I thought that you were.(a gentleman?) We can all lose our temper. Put away the name calling. You are so much better than that.

[darkeyes]

I rip my nation plenty. I'm on a ton of other boards where I criticize my nation a ton.

Y'all would get to see that if you would stop attacking the US long enough to allow it. You spend so much time making crass comments about the US that I, and others, have to spend our time defending our nation. You make snide little remarks, sometimes you get subtle, but it stands that you, and others, spend an awful lot of time no matter what the topic is, attacking the US.

Just like in any family, I'll fight my brother and argue with him, but no one else will.

Pasa

Thats fine.. I argue and fight with my brother and sister too.. and if they are wrong then they are fair game for anyone to take issue with..just as they believe in the very same in respect of me.. and if they are wrong, and are in an argument with others..then I will wade in on the side of others... just as I fully expect and accept they will do to me..

When we see people or nations speaking and acting wrongly n our opinion.. it is our obligation to ourselves and humanity to say so.. just because you have decided something to be right it does not follow that we all must fall into line with what you think.. just as I have no right to demand that others accept what I say.. that Pasa is what debate is about..

[DuckiesDarling]

And vice versa Fran, just because you have decided that Israel is in the wrong for defending themselves, it doesn't mean that everyone believes that to be the case.

I have openly stated there are innocent people in Gaza, yet I get told they elected Hamas so it's obviously their collective democratic choice. So I guess by that token people are saying there are no innocent people in Gaza. Israel has not denied them aid, they have denied aid they haven't inspected after suffering from weapons shipped to Gaza as "aid". I go back to LDD's post where he posted the facts.

A ship sailed under the guise of aid to a blockaded country. They did not allow Israel to inspect them, they refused to sail to a port to be inspected. That left Israel no choice but to land on the ship. Soldiers were attacked by "peaceful activists" as they rappelled down the ropes. Soldiers reacted according to training and neutralized the attackers, leaving 9 dead.

It could have been prevented if the ship had simply been inspected. What did they have to fear? Were they smuggling something contraband into Gaza? Did they not want anyone to know their humanitarian mission was a guise to get more weapons into terrorist hands?

It was a tragedy but everyone insists on blaming the Israelis when simply going to a port would have resulted in them being inspected and the aid delivered. Now it's a martyr'd case for activists everywhere but when you stop just aiding people and move to harming in order to aid someone you aren't an activist, you become a terrorist.

[Long Duck Dong]

I think you need to explain further....what you mean in your reply to Heph in post 437......but that is merely, my humble opinion, of course.

''I will break it down for you''

I thank you.........

''most countries will protest their own boundaries, but criticize other countries for doing the same thing.... or act in a manner that is contradictory....things like the detaining of civilians without right to trial or due course of justice.....''

Understood, understandable and also already known. We are human and therefore, do not always behave, as nations, with goodwill or generosity, or any care for our fellow human beings.

''( in nz, we held a person for 7 years at the request of the us, their own crime was to take pics of tourist locations, but they were held in detention as a suspected terrorist even tho they had no connection to any terrorist groups... yet the us frowns on other countries doing the same thing )''

How very odd, how unlawful that seems and how rather strange. I would have expected more from New Zealand. Ah, well!

''I support basic human rights.... but not equal rights.....''

Do you mean human rights and equal, depending upon situations.....as with indigenous populations, who may live a very different life, war situations, where the protection of the state has to come first...etc, etc, etc??

''a example is australia and the treatment of the aboriginals, they took a group of them, and put them in a housing complex.... and wondered why the hell they destroyed the place..... the answer is cos the aboriginals could not relate to the way we live, they had a different way of life, and when removed from that, they developed issues like alcoholism.....''

This is something that I am fully aware of, having read articles and watched many a documentary. To house a nomadic people, to try to restrict their movement, is/would be cruel, no matter what the race of the people.

Did you know the Australian Aboriginals, along with Native Americans, Inuit people, some Polynesians and a few others, have a genetic intolerance of alcohol? I have often wondered if the same, might also be true of Celts. However, I am not aware of any study, in this area.

''did you know that australia used to issue licenses to kill aboriginals...''

Oh, Yes.....I think a lot of people are aware of that and also how the very early settlers, used to ''hunt'' them.

''now you can not apply equal rights to everybody when each culture and race has a different way of doing things, and require different levels of rights......''

I think that it is fairly obvious that exceptions will always have to be made and for the reasons stated.

''hence you get things like no head coverings in banks but muslim females arguing that they should not have to uncover their heads as part of their beliefs require them to be covered.....''

The covering of heads and bodies is not exclusive to Islam, so it is a cultural aspect of life, which has been turned into, or deemed a very necessary part of the religious belief. Orthodox Jewish women also cover their hair and only allow their husbands to see it. The more wealthy Jewish women tend to wear wigs, which one wouldn't even notice were wigs. I once watched a documenary about a group of ultra orthodox Jewish women, who lived in Jerusalem. These women not only wore wigs, but also shaved their heads.

Cultural behaviour, with a long history, is so often mistaken for religious belief.

''you can not make everybody equal while granting exemptions to the rules for different people and groups... it creates unequality''

That is why we need democracies and governments who will pass laws which treat certain things in a sensitive manner, whilst still ensuring human rights.

''as for dictators and democracy..... in the olde ways, a gathering of chiefs ( in iceland 930 AD I think it was ) was the first parliament....
the chiefs were charged with the responsibility of upholding justice and balanced interaction in their respective tribes.....
so you has a dictatorship answering to a democratic style parliament where disputes and issues were resolved by a group elected by the chiefs.....
now in those days, everybody had a voice in the tribe as a tribe was built around team work''

Yep......sorta know about things like that....history being a passion 'n' all.

''in todays terms, it would be the united nations.... but using countries, not tribes.... but the issue lays with the ruling person / parties of each country.... they now lack the balanced support system of tribal unity.... as there is too many people and opinions and that allows a ruling person / party, to make the rules as they go along.....
and rather than sort it out so the * tribe * works together again as a co-hesive unit.... they go with the majority.......
hence you end up with a splintered society with different groups pushing different agendas.......''

Well ain't that obvious!

Unfortunately...those countries represented at the UN, are full of tribal peoples. With the permanent members of the Security Council, obviosly having joint and individual allies.....everything is always going to get screwed up. Can't see it changing........(no Gene Roddenberry style Federation of Planets type working together......and eventually that had to fail).......we're human!

By the way....what has any of that, got to do, with the Israelis storming an aid ship?

sighs here we go again

nz will pander to the us, cos we are still waiting for them to lift the trade tariffs nz in under for standing up to them.....that is why we used us justice and imprisoned a person for 7 years without trial at the us request....
nz law doesn't allow for that at all...... but a exemption was made cos of pressure by the us on the nz government....

now as for a muslim female full face covering..... I am a lil confused here about what comparision that has to do with the wearing of a wig and a scarf on the head.....
things like bike helmets that obscure the face are not allowed in banks, the same as balakavas and full face coverings...... scarfs on the head that to not obscure the face as allowed........
the muslims have argued that it should be allowed in places like courts etc.... as a exemption to the rule that the rest of nz must abide by

now regardless of what government exists where.... you still can not have different rights for different groups that allow for exemptions and still have equal rights... its simply not possible..... as you create a situation of inequality....


and what does it have to do with the thread ?????

lets see..... I am clarifying the way i see things, and why I am limiting my stance to a group of ships and a group of soldiers..... as thats what the thread started out as.....
we can always argue and debate the creation of israel etc etc as a crutch for our opinions of who was wrong with this single event.....but what the hell does it have to do with the single event of a ship boarding.....

at the end of the day, people will be on one of 3 sides.... the protestors, the israelis, or nobodies side......
and that is why I walk the middle group.... I am not taking sides...... merely calling it as I see it, based not on what I have read, but actual field experience as a ex soldier and as a protestor ( nz lgbt rights under the civil union bill )

btw, here is another question for you.......

are you related to falconangel as he uses the same style as you..... rather than express a opinion, he was fond of copy / paste / dissect and twist what a person says, rather than actually post a clear, concise and personal opinion....

as I have stated in the thread earlier, I hate people that do that, as they are not sharing their own opinion, merely riding the coattails of others posts as they really have no argument or experience of their own that carries any merit beyond what they have read in books and watched on tv......
yet, they are so quick to put down the actual experiences of others as something of no validity and any real sense of understanding and knowledge

[nudistbione]

check out this video of the so called aid to hamas click on this thread http://lucianne.com/article/?pageid=real_story_of_the_gaza_convoy

[DuckiesDarling]

Thanks for that, maybe that will open a few eyes.

[tenni]

I watched the movie referred to in post 492. I think that it shows one perspective but it is clearly biased towards Israel. What source is this video from? It may be an Israeli release as only Israel has the videos showing a perspective from above or the helicopters from a side view. This is a propoganda release in my opinion. I do suspect that some on the ship were there to create a problem. I do not believe that Israel has the right to board any ship in international waters. I do not believe that Israel's list of what is a humanitarian aid is acceptable. Leaving off cement in an area that seems to be constantly being damaged seem inappropriate. I do believe that Israel lets certain items in to Gaza as the video claims. I don't know if they let in sufficient amounts to meet the Gazan's daily needs. Big whop that they let some food and medicine in. Was it sufficient? I don't know. Two sides and two very different perspectives.

As I was reading posts by DD, I was watching a Canadian television show reviewing the various reports about the Bush era in the US. I get a little angry when people from the US come to an international website proclaiming protests about terrorist states when they lived in a terrorist state during the Bush years. If they acknowledged their own country's terrorist and inappropriate international acts first, there words would have more credibility. The Iraqi children and adults who suffered and were terrorized might appreciate it.

Hammas has done bad things and hurt many. Israel has done bad things and hurt people. This is not a black and white scenario.

[Long Duck Dong]

I watched the movie referred to in post 492. I think that it shows one perspective but it is clearly biased towards Israel. What source is this video from? It may be an Israeli release as only Israel has the videos showing a perspective from above or the helicopters from a side view. This is a propoganda release in my opinion. I do suspect that some on the ship were there to create a problem. I do not believe that Israel has the right to board any ship in international waters. I do not believe that Israel's list of what is a humanitarian aid is acceptable. Leaving off cement in an area that seems to be constantly being damaged seem inappropriate. I do believe that Israel lets certain items in to Gaza as the video claims. I don't know if they let in sufficient amounts to meet the Gazan's daily needs. Big whop that they let some food and medicine in. Was it sufficient? I don't know. Two sides and two very different perspectives.

As I was reading posts by DD, I was watching a Canadian television show reviewing the various reports about the Bush era in the US. I get a little angry when people from the US come to an international website proclaiming protests about terrorist states when they lived in a terrorist state during the Bush years. If you don't believe it tough. It is true but not quite the same type of terrorism as Hammas. Still terrrorism. The though. US people seem to want to forget it but many in the world do not.

Hammas has done bad things and hurt many. Israel has done bad things and hurt people. This is not a black and white scenario.

as I have posted tenni...

plastercrete, instead of cement, its lighter, only requires water, not water and builders mix, its non explosive, sets faster and is stronger than concrete..... its a perfect building material.... so why not use that, instead of cement. as with cement, you need a good number of tonne of builders mix as well.... so double the room needed as opposed to plastercrete when transporting aid

the international aid laws ( which I have posted in the thread ) require any aid ship to stop or waylay for the purposes of inspect or blockade..... its a international law protecting aid ships, it also gives israel the right to board, stop or waylay any aid vessel seeking to go thru a blockade.......
that is why I posted the laws..... they show the legal guidelines for both sides, not one....

as for the video.... yeah there is some symbols from turkish CNN and other news outlets... but the statements match info outside of israel, including the islamic groups and statements made by observers that the turkish protestors never boarded at the main port of call, they boarded at another port of call, separately
it may be pro israel.... but the facts outside of the israel newscast are pro israel too.....
the fact a islamic group with links to terrorism are involved in a aid mission to place led by hamas that is intent on mass murder and extermination of the jews, when under international aid laws, the shipments should have been done thru a neutral international aid organization like red cross.....

I am not telling you that you are wrong and I am not saying I am right..... I am saying that a lot of the issues could have been avoided, but more and more its appearing not as a aid mission on a lot of levels, but a small group within the aid mission, seeking to create a international incident.. that overshadowed the actual aid mission......

there is a limit to what can be transported into gaza ..... as its got to come from somewhere...... and you can only send to gaza, what has been given / donated by other governments and groups.....

as for the remark about terrorism during the bush years..... well.... yes... terrorism is terrorism, regardless of what country proclaims what stance....
it reminds me of the star trek song and the verse " we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill "

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa
No dude. You have crossed a line with the name calling. Please calm yourself down a bit. Discuss the issues. If calling you a Christian is what upset you to the point of name calling a woman, I don't know. That is not what I thought that you were.(a gentleman?) We can all lose our temper. Put away the name calling. You are so much better than that.

Are you being obtuse on purpose, or just to be annoying?

She uses my religion as a weapon to wield against me anytime I say anything she doesn't like. And she has nothing of merit or value to say. She came back to this thread to pick a fight with me. She got it.

Go ahead. Defend her. That's ok. The usual suspects will.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Hammas has done bad things and hurt many. Israel has done bad things and hurt people. This is not a black and white scenario.

I call bullshit on this attempt at moral equivalency. They are not equals. They are not two sides of the same coin. They are not equal situations in any way.

Pasa

[Canticle]

I watched the movie referred to in post 492. I think that it shows one perspective but it is clearly biased towards Israel. What source is this video from? It may be an Israeli release as only Israel has the videos showing a perspective from above or the helicopters from a side view. This is a propoganda release in my opinion. I do suspect that some on the ship were there to create a problem. I do not believe that Israel has the right to board any ship in international waters. I do not believe that Israel's list of what is a humanitarian aid is acceptable. Leaving off cement in an area that seems to be constantly being damaged seem inappropriate. I do believe that Israel lets certain items in to Gaza as the video claims. I don't know if they let in sufficient amounts to meet the Gazan's daily needs. Big whop that they let some food and medicine in. Was it sufficient? I don't know. Two sides and two very different perspectives.

As I was reading posts by DD, I was watching a Canadian television show reviewing the various reports about the Bush era in the US. I get a little angry when people from the US come to an international website proclaiming protests about terrorist states when they lived in a terrorist state during the Bush years. If they acknowledged their own country's terrorist and inappropriate international acts first, there words would have more credibility. The Iraqi children and adults who suffered and were terrorized might appreciate it.

Hammas has done bad things and hurt many. Israel has done bad things and hurt people. This is not a black and white scenario.

Tenni, as I was watching that 7 minute video, it became obvious to me, from the onset, that this was a very carefully constructed piece of propaganda.

I think it was the line of trucks, waiting to ''deliver aid to gaza,'' and the very deliberate filming of piles of aid, waiting to be loaded on to said trucks, that was the trigger for my immediate doubt.

How cleverly edited the footage was, with film of people who were meant to be Muslims, brandishing large knives and chanting. The fact that the IDF officer was filmed on the ship to ship radio to the aid ship and then what were supposed responses from the crew of the Turkish ship. Do people watching that, actually believe that because it is seen and heard, that this is what was said. The Israeli officer could have been filmed at any time and the replies could be faked.

I agree with most of what you say and it is telling, that most Americans, who have posted on this subject seem to believe anything said or filmed, which is favouring Israel.

I am sure that there were people on the ship, who were there, not necessarily to cause trouble, for the sake of causing trouble, but well prepared to defend themselves, knowing how violently the Israeli forces can react. I certainly do not condemn those people, but neither do I approve of any violence.

What was really absurd was the nice feminine voice, so calm and collected, saying that it was only when the Israeli forces were attacked, that they went from, paintball guns and rubber bullets, to live ammunition. I wonder what was being fired, on other video footage, seen....cos it sure sounded like rapid fire of real guns.

People also ought to be aware, that rubber bullets can kill and they can also be interfered with. I worked with a woman who's husband was in the army. He never went to Northern Ireland, but they new of many soldiers, who had turned rubber bullets into dum dum ammunition, by splittling the end of the bullet and inserting a coin. If caught, they were punished severely....but as we know....in such situations, young soldiers, do not always behave, as they would, were they still civilians.

I would not only ask what the source of this video was...but also what kind of a site was it being viewed upon. The whole thing was a propaganda excercise.

Your last words are very true...both sides have done terrible things. Such is man's inhumanity to man.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Of course...it must have been propaganda. http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just as telling that the anti-Semites, Pro Palestinians, and the Anti-Americans haven't believed any videos to have been out that favors Israel. I like this video. It pretty plainly gives the facts. Yes, it's pro Israeli. But, then again, it says a bunch of things that aren't being said, that need to be.

1. The Flotilla was told to stop. They refused.
2. The Flotilla was told to go to a particular port to unload it's 'aid.'
3. The 'activists' on 1 ship decided to get violent. No one else seemed to need to do this.
4. The last bit of info: that the only people getting violent boarded without papers, were well funded and apparently not a part of anyone in the 'aid' convoy.
5. Israel is already sending in aid. *gasp* *shock* Oh..what? You mean that was reported months ago?

What they didn't mention is that Israel has stopped dozens of ships in the past two years, inspected them, and allowed the cargo to be delivered to Gaza. *gasp* you mean that's been reported already too? *shock*

BTW, have you heard a paintball gun on auto? Have you heard an M4 on full auto? Do you know the difference? Do you have anything to back up your claims? There is video in front of you to say one thing. What do you have to negate it?

The video jives with what is being said from several sources, including GlobalSecurity.org. The amount of aid going into Gaza seems to jive with earlier news reports, given long before the flotilla was boarded. So, that doesn't seem to be new, or made up. Every video source thus far shows the exact same thing: people attacking IDF while they are still rappelling down.

I'm waiting for something, anything, besides people, who by their own words only wish to become martyrs against Israel, making unsubstantiated claims.

Pasa

[Canticle]

sighs here we go again

nz will pander to the us, cos we are still waiting for them to lift the trade tariffs nz in under for standing up to them.....that is why we used us justice and imprisoned a person for 7 years without trial at the us request....
nz law doesn't allow for that at all...... but a exemption was made cos of pressure by the us on the nz government....

now as for a muslim female full face covering..... I am a lil confused here about what comparision that has to do with the wearing of a wig and a scarf on the head.....
things like bike helmets that obscure the face are not allowed in banks, the same as balakavas and full face coverings...... scarfs on the head that to not obscure the face as allowed........
the muslims have argued that it should be allowed in places like courts etc.... as a exemption to the rule that the rest of nz must abide by

now regardless of what government exists where.... you still can not have different rights for different groups that allow for exemptions and still have equal rights... its simply not possible..... as you create a situation of inequality....


and what does it have to do with the thread ?????

lets see..... I am clarifying the way i see things, and why I am limiting my stance to a group of ships and a group of soldiers..... as thats what the thread started out as.....
we can always argue and debate the creation of israel etc etc as a crutch for our opinions of who was wrong with this single event.....but what the hell does it have to do with the single event of a ship boarding.....

at the end of the day, people will be on one of 3 sides.... the protestors, the israelis, or nobodies side......
and that is why I walk the middle group.... I am not taking sides...... merely calling it as I see it, based not on what I have read, but actual field experience as a ex soldier and as a protestor ( nz lgbt rights under the civil union bill )

btw, here is another question for you.......

are you related to falconangel as he uses the same style as you..... rather than express a opinion, he was fond of copy / paste / dissect and twist what a person says, rather than actually post a clear, concise and personal opinion....

as I have stated in the thread earlier, I hate people that do that, as they are not sharing their own opinion, merely riding the coattails of others posts as they really have no argument or experience of their own that carries any merit beyond what they have read in books and watched on tv......
yet, they are so quick to put down the actual experiences of others as something of no validity and any real sense of understanding and knowledge

I do not copy and paste.....unless it is to show something interesting in a post. I have my way of posting. it's mine, not that of a man. I don't twist words....it's not my style, because I believe in truth and decency.....that's why I'm not a liar. I do know someone do does lie and twist words...and i can tell you now......it's not nice to be on the receiving end.

I'm awfully sorry, if I haven't served in the armed forces...but I reckon that most on this site, probably have not. I have views...I will express them. If you don't like them, then you don't have to read them. I would not put down any experience you have, in the armed forces, but I would say that just because you have served in the forces, it doesn't mean that you are right, all of the time.

From now on, I shall not comment on your posts....I could and I could be rude, but I am not a rude person. I try to keep my points made, aimed at the subject, unless a person makes remarks which would seem vile to most upon this site.

[Canticle]

Of course...it must have been propaganda. http://www.electricsamurai.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pasa

Meaning exactly????? Did you take it as truth?