BOYCOTT PRIDE

[tenni]

Simple. It shows people that we bisexuals exist, are out, are proud and not ashamed of our sexuality, and that we have large numbers as bisexual women, men, and trans people outnumber gay/lesbian men, women, and trans people.


If someone watching the event is bisexual but not out seeing other bisexual people at pride parades or events would make them more comfortable with coming out.

Which demonstrates that bisexuals exist clearer: a/ marching with gays, lesbians, trans etc. as one of many or b/ marching as bisexuals alone?

Such marching does not seem to align with the bisexual (some) philosophy that a person's sexuality should not matter. How can we expand upon the bisexual (some) belief that a person's sexuality should not matter as far as social and legal rights of freedom? Does the idea that bisexuals are ashamed fit into this bisexual belief philosophy? Does this bisexual belief show that bisexuals are not just like gays?

[newlynymphos]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!

[darkeyes]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!

Have u ever thought that bitching might just be my natural state? Trust me, hun.. u wouldn't b the only 1... it isn't Gears tho.. Gear is luffly.. he is just an argumentative b... if I sed sugar he wud say shi*e..

Drama? Drama??? Moi? God.. drama is me middle name an it follows me round like zif it wos tied 2 me wrist... I luff a gud bitta drama.. don't knock it.. wer wud we b wivout a gud ole fashioned dose of drama?? Spesh of the melo kind... am pretty decent at that an all... shud b.. get enuff practice...

[tenni]

" You do know that many LGBT pride parades especially ones that are large or held in large cities have a parade event, or section of the parade just for bisexuals right?"

Yes, I do know that. I was just talking to someone about World Pride parade in Toronto this year. They were hoping that others might have a banner from outside of Toronto (like a New York bisexual banner). This is all in the same parade as GLBT. It is just another banner ..like gay police, dykes on bikes etc.

I do know about Sept 23. Nothing happens much around here. Nothing much happens on this site either. Why do you think that there is a bisexual day? Maybe, bisexuals do not want to be connected to GLBT? It doesn't get the publicity that Pride parades get. No one marches on Sept 23 in Toronto. Apathy? or ?

I’m not sure what world and what history that you are referring to. I did not know the word bisexual existed until late1980. You were either straight or gay where I lived back then. Bisexuals may have existed for centuries. Group acknowledgement ..not so much.


One thing that I have noticed is that you have just joined the site. Another thing that I notice is that some are very strong supporters of GLBT organizations and some bisexuals are not. No offence but you seem emerged in pro Gay politics? I could be wrong.

[Gearbox]

Drama, drama! Just be yourself! If you haven't found that, than quit bitchin!

Pride was founded on bitching. If people didn't bitch, there'd be no marches of any description and nothing would ever change.
You'd prob be in prison if no gays, bi's and trans bitched about things needing a change.

[Long Duck Dong]

welcome to the site, giovanni.....

lol .... pro gay ? its basically means that you are not being pro bisexual and anti everybody else, you are daring to be supportive of the bisexuals AND our allies in the LGBT so its a back handed slap at you and a way of implying that you are not really caring about the bisexual community and that your understanding may not be in line with the bisexual communities wants and needs.... and that you may not be in touch with the reality that bisexual people deal with...... the fact that you may be a out and proud bisexual, means nothing.... and thats why the site has become so devoid of most articles and posts about the LGBT community, the victories, the positive aspects, the times to celebrate etc.......

on a side note......

a few of my friends and I are helping to arrange funding for a group of the local LGBT to travel to one of the pride parade in NZ as there not much of a LGBT pride movement where I live.....and they are heading off to stand up and represent the LGBT community for a few of the centers around where I live.... they are going as a combined group and intend to walk as a combined group in the pride march as in their eyes, 18 people in a group stands out more than 3 bisexuals, 3 gays, 4 lesbians, 2 trans, 2 gender queer, 5 heteros, in seperate groups..... there is 2 under 25 gay guys, one mentally impaired ( also completed in the special olympics ) 2 ex military, etc... so its more than just a sexuality pride march, its showing that we are more than just a sexuality, we are a community.......... and yes, we have had opposite for having a mentally challenged person represent a sexuality ( we got accused of using the person for grandstanding ) amongst other * issues *..

the people that are going have covered half their costs so we are covering the other half because they are proactive..... and because we are not supporting the activists that want to go and spout their agenda, we are also not very nice people, but they are the people that have destroyed 2 lgbt groups with their opinions and attitudes and will not accept that while they are entitled to their opinion they have also created the situation that they find themselves in which is they have to find their own way to the pride parade.......

I was asked if I would go as a representative of the LGBT community that has mental illness aspects... but my commitments prevent that....so another person is going in my place and apparently this time, the community mental health services are going to be at the pride parade as well.... that is a huge victory for the LGBT people....

viva la pride parades

[tenni]

Giovanni
I meant to type “immersed in pro gay philosophy” rather than emerged.(auto correct put that word there). It is a bit difficult to articulate but it is at the core of this thread’s issues. Those who support GLBT Pride organizations seem to adhere to a certain philosophy whether they present themselves as gay or bisexual they hold the similar beliefs. There is little thought that comes from their mouth questioning the GLBT organizations mantra of united we stand etc. The reality is usually different and often bisexual needs are not addressed by the boards of these organizations.

You refer to lists of bisexual people known to other US peeps and at the same time refer to Roman and Greek historical eras. Bisexuality probably existed during the Roman-Greco eras just as it has in other eras. I doubt that Rennaissance writings referred to these emperors as bisexual? Do you have such evidence from that era? Victorian era? The list of names that you refer to as bisexuals is another matter. When was this list first created? (Greco-Roman era, early 1950’s?, 1980’s, 2000’s? 2010’s? )


There have been others who have appeared on this site and your posts remind me of such posters.

[darkeyes]

If there is one thing I have thought long and hard about.. it is the need for those who have much in common, and who for centuries found themselves and their kind banned and oppressed, gaoled, hung drawn quartered, castrated, sterilised, raped, forcibly made pregnant, tortured, burnt at stake and treated like shite, deprived of liberty and life..... and that is the need to stay together and fight in common cause.. it is that which gained us so much is the last half century.. u too, tenni and every bisexual man and woman for that matter... there is little if anything gained in that time for the gay community which was not also gained for the bisexual... so get off ur high horse... to say we have given little thought to questioning the mantra of sticking together in alliance against the forces that threaten us is dismissive, contemptuous and simply wrong.. because we disagree on something does not mean either u or I have given little thought to the subject..

Do u really think the record of the lgbt in the west at least is so poor and its treatment of the bisexual community so awful as to justify a massive part of its membership swanning off doing its own thing and sod everyone else? Do we deserve that, truly? Because if it ever does we will all live to regret it I suspect..

[tenni]

"u too, tenni and every bisexual man and woman for that matter... there is little if anything gained in that time for the gay community which was not also gained for the bisexual... so get off ur high horse"

darkeyes
It is true that bisexuals have benefited from the gay rights movement if they are in a same sex relationship or hook up. BUT that is not all the aspects that bisexuals need changes on. I do not honestly believe that most bisexuals will get off the couch enough to make changes. It won't be gays either. Like (possibly?) gay rights movements it will be a small group of bisexuals articulating and demanding bisexual rights and needs to be addressed.

[tenni]

Yes, Giovanni
I am aware of all that you post (except claims about just how long the word bisexual has been attached to historical figures(due to say...Bi Invisibility). It seems incredible to you that someone knows all that you post and still doesn't conform to your mantra, eh?

Many who were murdered and the murderer not prosecuted, put in a mental hospital against their will, etc. were done to what was called homosexuals whether they were really bisexual or not...cuz if you like same gender you had to be a homosexual and nothing else. (yep there still are probably some monosexuals who still believe that one)

A question is what have LGBT organizations done for bisexuals that was not of a benefit to gays?

[tenni]

Well, someone is here less than 24 hours and finds the ignore button. No one is claiming that they are "new" to the site...lol

Unknown to Top Fuc...I mean Gionvanni? he has been debating on a bisexual political thread.

Bisexual erasure or bisexual invisibility is the tendency to ignore, remove, falsify, or reexplain evidence of bisexuality in history, academia, news media and other primary souces.

Unless bisexuality has been in school books, history books, news media bisexuality during historical periods have been ignored until very recently. The point that wiki publishes the history of bisexuality today doesn't erase the number of times that news media have said married to a woman politician X is gay because he had sex with a man in washroom.

Now, back to the thread topic.
What have LGBT organizations done for bisexuals that was not of a benefit to gays?

[tenni]

There is not much to post in response to post 50 that is on topic.

Off topic of this thread but ....
Pensylvania must be one of the more enlightened places in the world to actually teach (grade school? high school? or university classes..more likely) about bisexuality in history classes. (then again the poster has not stated that he was educated in Pensylvania. Teaching bisexuality in famous writers etc. is not on the Ontario educational curriculum and yet same sex marriage has been legal in my province for nearly ten years now.

btw Congrats to Pensylvania about having legal same sex marriage for the past two or three weeks.

Again, What have GLBT organizations done for bisexuals that has not been a benefit for gays?

[Gearbox]

Do u really think the record of the lgbt in the west at least is so poor and its treatment of the bisexual community so awful as to justify a massive part of its membership swanning off doing its own thing and sod everyone else? Do we deserve that, truly? Because if it ever does we will all live to regret it I suspect..

'Sodding everybody else' isn't the point. Here's the point:

To participate and support the pride parades and whatnot is, in essence, an act of self sabotage - supporting the groups that would rather we stayed
silent or did not exist.

That's a damn good point too IMO. There's prob more bi oppression coming from those within the parade than outside it. Am talking about the gay community of course, not the lovely trans.

It's not very comforting when everywhere you go on the net, there's some gay bloke/s spouting bi-erasure. It's even less comforting when you meet them in person.
Yet these people will be marching away in the Parade like they were against bigotry and not at all fascist or hypocrites.
It's a bit silly isn't it?

[Long Duck Dong]

I will be dead honest.... if the only reason for going to a pride event, was cos of my sexuality, I would not go...... but that is because my sexuality is an aspect of me, its not the sum total of who I am.......

i am not one of these people that sees society or the world as owing me anything because I am attracted to more than one gender, and it does not mean that my needs or wants are any more or less valid than any other person in a pride parade.......and while I am not ashamed of my sexuality, its not really something that is that much of a pride thing either..... Hey mum, I aced the test in english, I got an A in computer skill and I am infatuated with the maths teacher because he is a hot guy and I wanna bang the economics teacher in a threesome with her husband, lol...... sure, sucking a cock may get me a job, but its not going to mean that I am qualified to do the job and being bisexual never fixed my computer...

its the same with a military parade, its not really a case of marching because I served.... its more about I am marching with those that have served, they understand my reality better than a person that has not.... but the policeman also understands, they may have never left the country, they may have never laid in their own piss and shit, waiting for that one shot.... but they understand what its like...... the colour of the uniform and the job title is like the LGBT, take away the labels and the gender we are attracted to, and we are all the same, we know what its like to desire, be attracted to, feel a need for.... and to have supporters and critics, friends and foe.......

so if people do not walk in a pride parade, they are making a choice.... future friendships could be lost, new avenues of funding and support may be lost, new ventures may be lost, the chance for others to take a interest in us and our work, may be lost........ and the chance to give others the opportunity to step in with the help and support that we seek, is taken away from them..... thats more than just a sexuality and an attraction, thats a reality and a future opening for ourselves and others........

that is what is going thru my head when I think of a pride parade..... what I consider if I choose to walk with people or not... its not all about me, its about the possibilities for myself and others... and yes also the fact that the bisexual community of NZ generally ignore most of the bisexual community that are * too far away from the action * to matter.. so it comes down to me and others to build up that bisexual community network in our own area without much help from the NZ bisexual community ( they have tried to step in and pull us under their wing when they realised the advantages to using us for their own gain with funding and opportunities that we would never see )

sure I can choose not to go to a pride parade ( $2800 it would cost me to go ) but the cost to the local LGBT community could be a lot higher if somebody from our community does not go.... so we are sending people, because its not all about sexuality and attraction, its about community and as spock would say, the needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few.....

am I pro LGBT, nope... am I pro gay..... nope.... am I pro bisexual... not really....... but I am pro people, pro community and pro making a difference.....and thats how I make a difference for the people I care about...... and my reward ( and others ) is to be told that we are not standing up for the bisexual community, we are pro LGBT, not pro BI, we are ignoring the issues that affect our communities that we are openly involved in... and even told about how we are not really bisexual......

gee sir.... do I really have to sit at the back of the bus in the bisexual seats... why can I not sit in the front with the LGT like we used to be able to when we marched for same gender marriage and anti discrimination on the grounds of sexuality..... who were the fuckin idiots that set us back so many years ??????

[darkeyes]

What have GLBT organizations done for bisexuals that has not been a benefit for gays?

Possibly some trans issues..worked in alliance with bisexuals and transpeople on Trans issues.. arguable possibly... but turn your statement on its head what has the lgbt achieved and striving to achieve that is not for the benefit of bisexuals?

[darkeyes]

'Sodding everybody else' isn't the point. Here's the point:

That's a damn good point too IMO. There's prob more bi oppression coming from those within the parade than outside it. Am talking about the gay community of course, not the lovely trans.

It's not very comforting when everywhere you go on the net, there's some gay bloke/s spouting bi-erasure. It's even less comforting when you meet them in person.
Yet these people will be marching away in the Parade like they were against bigotry and not at all fascist or hypocrites.
It's a bit silly isn't it?

More, Gear? Really? So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals? Who run the religions who condemn bisexuality? Who make up the far right organisations who would have bisexuality banned, bisexuals imprisoned, tortured and killed and who run the nations on this earth who do just that? Who run amok in South Africa where it is legal, raping, battering and/or butchering bisexual people.. correct me if I'm wrong, but but are these people not overwhelmingly heterosexual and doing what they do because of the fact that active bisexuals practice homosexual practices... of course u may consider a bisexual raped and butchered for doing a homosexual act as bi-erasure... but I just call it butchery and barbarism..

There are gay men and lesbians who do just as u say, Gear, but they are no where near the number of heterosexuals who do so.. and they have no where near the power in our societies.. any of our societies, whether being able to actively practice ur sexuality is legalised or not..... but are they the majority of gay and lesbians people in our world? No they fucking aren't not by a long shot... no one is saying the lesbian and gay parts of the lgbt are innocent of being shites to other parts of the community...but we are saying it is nowhere near most.. I do wish people would take aim at those who are responsible for the real problems of our communities.. and it isn't the gay and lesbian, culpable tho many of them can be...

Trust me.. some of the most contemptuous, disgusting and often abusive things I have seen written of Transpeople or hear spoken of them have rolled out of the gobs of self proclaimed bisexuals, men principally tho not exclusively...or off their keyboards.. u just need to read the pages of forums to get an idea of that... do I think it the entire bisexual community who do so? No I don't, not by a long chalk.. just as it is a small minority of arseholes within the gay and lesbians communities who talk to and treat u and other bisexual people so badly on-line or elsewhere.. and for that matter just as I don't think that the evil done by the worst of heterosexual kind in our societies is anywhere near representative of the str8 community...

[Gearbox]

When you look for 'reigns of power', you don't just have to take account of laws, governments and religions. You look at movements that effect the way society views x,y or z. Women's Lib being an eg. That wasn't just a movement to change laws or get equality. It was to change how women are viewed in society and it has informed society how to view women. Today we can see the effects of it in a snapshot of society. Although there are many misogynists still live & kicking, it doesn't change the view that women are equal to men and what a woman is etc.

So lets get our society cameras out and take a snapshot of the sexuality bit of society. Lets have a gander of how well the LGBT movement has informed society of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgendered.
With my camera, I can see that even a 5yo knows what a gay is and what homosexuality is. Society is VERY well informed of homosexuality and I doubt there are any who has never heard of it.
Bisexuality is a bit vague tho. Not many 5yo's knows what that is. Strangely, many adults don't have a clue either, and even bisexuals don't get to know about it until well into their teens and have to search for it. Sites like this one are put up to help them out.
The transgendered are not very well understood either. All in the LGBT pussyfoot around them coz we don't know how to refer to them etc and often insult them due to that.

So we can see how the LGBT has done a marvellous job of informing society about homosexuality at least.
Well not really! There's a bit of confusion as to what homosexuality is and what a homosexual is. Apparently any same gender sexual act is homosexual: If a man sucks a cock, he is gay/homosexual. It doesn't matter what he does with women coz he'd be homosexual and in denial of it. That is 'known' from an early age in society.
THAT is also what the adult, intelligent homosexuals who are biphobic 'inform' others. If they are a minority, I'd reckon that they are a pretty powerful minority, as that passes down the line very well. It's also passes through to media where anything non-hetero is portrayed, and even causes many bi's to opt for the gay ID & 'born this way' belief despite not being gay.

NO! Not all gays are biphobic. Enough of them are tho, and if that's the minority, then shame on the majority. Shame on us all!
We should know better by now. The LGBT should have evolved by now.

[tenni]

darkeyes
My question was not about trans. Stayed focused on this bisexual site on the issue of bisexuality and GLBT organizations' Pride events (yes I have been to a Toronto Pride parade). The question is about what GLBT organizations have done to the benefit for bisexuals that has not benefited gays.

You do not seem to be able to provide one thing that this organization and Pride parades have provided to the benefit of bisexuals but not gays.

Why is it necessary to “turn the question on its head”? It is a direct question deserving a direct answer. To revert the issue by sending back a vague question about LBGT organizations achieved that was not a benefit of bisexuals is an side bar acknowledgement that NOTHING has been done to benefit bisexuals that did not also benefit gays. What the LGBT organizations do for same sex scenarios is of prime benefit for gays. How does same sex marriage benefit the bisexual in a cross gender relationship? If they want a “legal” closed loop relationship between three people same sex marriage does not provide legal rights to these people. Same sex marriage supports “coupledom” not bisexuality that exists beyond the monogamous couple relationship.

However, this still does not answer in the positive what GLBT organizations and all their Pride philosophy have done to the the benefit of bisexuals without also benefiting gays. Gay rights and gay philosophy have been at the core of the Pride BTLG movement for a very long time.

"So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals?"
No, of course not throughout all of western history. Gays have been equally oppressed for the past few centuries at least. It could be argued more oppressed than bisexuals. Bisexuals could proudly show their interest in opposite gender as long as they did not also proudly show their interest in same gender and heaven forbid both genders at the same time!!! I get the impression that presently you find oppression "hot" and lean towards trans people as being the most oppressed and most deserving of your love and caring? That is fine and I would agree with much that you write about the oppressions of trans. The point of this thread is not about trans though. It is about bisexuals and whether they should boycott etc. Pride.

Today, however, within the BLTG organizations gays do seem to hold the reigns of power. I'm not convinced that they intended to oppress bisexuals but these organizations do put gay rights/issues above finding out what rights bisexuals need that gays do not. It can not be ignored that a segment of gays have strongly stated that bisexuality is false and merely a stopping spot to gaydom. It seems to still prejudice such Pride organizations from putting bisexual needs/rights ahead of gay needs/rights. Then again, the argument that bisexuals do not articulate their rights /needs clearly enough, how can poor little gays promote their rights? Lots of gays did not argue for same sex marriage and in fact opposed it as too similar to hetero monosexuals values and morality.

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly, its easier to teach a child about homosexuality and gay males than it is to teach them about bisexuality......

heterosexual, man likes / loves woman
homosexual, man likes / loves man
lesbian, woman likes / loves woman
bisexual, man / woman likes / loves woman and man but man / woman may like / love man / woman more than man / woman ( breaking it down to the simpliest but all encompassing terms for the differing attraction levels

how about marriage,
heterosexual man marries woman
homosexual, man marries man
lesbian, woman marries woman
bisexual, man / woman marries man / woman ....but man / woman may want to also marry man / woman and man / woman

couples...

heterosexual man and woman
homosexual, man and man
lesbian, woman and woman
bisexual, woman / man and woman / man and woman / man ( include man / man / man and woman / woman / woman )

we have the reality of sex acts..... if its male and female, its not a bisexual act, its a hetero act ( very little said about that ) if its two females, its not a bisexual act, its a lesbian act ( very lil said about that ) if its two guys its not a bisexual act its a gay act ( protest marches in 11 cities, numerous threads, accusations about trying to hide the * truth * )


the reality of sexuality for some people.... I am attracted to the opposite sex but ONLY attracted to the genitals of the same sex ( bisexual ) I am attracted to the opposite sex but I have a attraction to the same sex ( bisexual ) I am attracted to the opposite and same sex equally ( bisexual ).... I am attracted to opposite and same cisgender and also trans ( bisexual, actually its pansexual ) I am attracted to the opposite and same sex, trans, gender queer etc ( bisexual and stop it please... bisexual means attraction to the same ans opposite sex, if you call yourself pansexual / omnisexual / open sexual, its actually correct but you need to only use the incorrect term bisexual and forget the other VALID sexualities ) I am attracted to the opposite sex but I think about the same sex at times ( bisexual and you are GOING to want to fuck other people of the same gender later in life so call yourself bisexual....
( side note: I do not care about labels, a person can call themselves what they want and I will accept it )

what about commitment in relationships and marriage

heterosexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
homosexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
lesbian, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine
bisexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine.... no wait... what the hell are you thinking... you have no right to choose monogamy, if you do you are confirming, its your partners fault, society and religion are forcing you.......


it all sounds easy to talk about, but when it comes down to actually showing people about bisexuality, there is a very one sided and unbalanced view of bisexuality that is actually being pushed by people.... yet when it comes to twisted and unbalanced views of bisexuality... the heteros gays and lesbians are being blamed for it.....

the reality is that a lot of the time that the word gay is used, its not referring to people as gay... its referring to the nature of the couple, sex act, relationship.... and being read as gay = male homosexual....... and how many times has a person used the terms I feel more lesbian / gay when referring to their attraction to the same and opposite gender ? are we supposed to say I feel more bisexual today than I did yesturday... I had a strong bisexual draw to a woman but today its changed, now I have a strong bisexual draw to a man....

we often use terms to define a sexual act.... but when it comes to bisexuals, the rule book changes.....

hetero.... I had hetero sex with the wife / gf
homosexual I had gay sex with the husband / bf
lesbian I had gay / lesbian sex with the wife / gf
bisexual I had bisexual sex with the wife / gf then I went and had bisexual sex with a guy and then we had bisexual sex in a threesome.....


that in a nutshell is why teaching people about bisexuality is bloody near impossible and that is using issues that have come up in this site in regards to sharing about and talking about bisexuality and bisexuals to other people or the terms used in the media to refer to aspects of bisexuality....

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
My question was not about trans. Stayed focused on this bisexual site on the issue of bisexuality and GLBT organizations' Pride events (yes I have been to a Toronto Pride parade). The question is about what GLBT organizations have done to the benefit for bisexuals that has not benefited gays.

You do not seem to be able to provide one thing that this organization and Pride parades have provided to the benefit of bisexuals but not gays.

Why is it necessary to “turn the question on its head”? It is a direct question deserving a direct answer. To revert the issue by sending back a vague question about LBGT organizations achieved that was not a benefit of bisexuals is an side bar acknowledgement that NOTHING has been done to benefit bisexuals that did not also benefit gays. What the LGBT organizations do for same sex scenarios is of prime benefit for gays. How does same sex marriage benefit the bisexual in a cross gender relationship? If they want a “legal” closed loop relationship between three people same sex marriage does not provide legal rights to these people. Same sex marriage supports “coupledom” not bisexuality that exists beyond the monogamous couple relationship.

However, this still does not answer in the positive what GLBT organizations and all their Pride philosophy have done to the the benefit of bisexuals without also benefiting gays. Gay rights and gay philosophy have been at the core of the Pride BTLG movement for a very long time.

"So the gay community have held the reigns of power throughout history and have been the ones to oppress bisexuals?"
No, of course not throughout all of western history. Gays have been equally oppressed for the past few centuries at least. It could be argued more oppressed than bisexuals. Bisexuals could proudly show their interest in opposite gender as long as they did not also proudly show their interest in same gender and heaven forbid both genders at the same time!!! I get the impression that presently you find oppression "hot" and lean towards trans people as being the most oppressed and most deserving of your love and caring? That is fine and I would agree with much that you write about the oppressions of trans. The point of this thread is not about trans though. It is about bisexuals and whether they should boycott etc. Pride.

Today, however, within the BLTG organizations gays do seem to hold the reigns of power. I'm not convinced that they intended to oppress bisexuals but these organizations do put gay rights/issues above finding out what rights bisexuals need that gays do not. It can not be ignored that a segment of gays have strongly stated that bisexuality is false and merely a stopping spot to gaydom. It seems to still prejudice such Pride organizations from putting bisexual needs/rights ahead of gay needs/rights. Then again, the argument that bisexuals do not articulate their rights /needs clearly enough, how can poor little gays promote their rights? Lots of gays did not argue for same sex marriage and in fact opposed it as too similar to hetero monosexuals values and morality.

Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. we both desire our own gender.. many of us have sex with our own gender.. we both have the right if not the inclination to do the same in respect of the opposite gender. Every success of the last half century has benefited both sexualities equally has it not?

The things of which u speak as being bisexual aspirations alone are they simply for bisexuals? Do they not equally apply to gay and heterosexual or are we to be debarred from entering the kind of relationships u mention? Are heterosexuals? Not to mention Transgender, some of whom will be bi, some gay and some heterosexual...? Same sex marriage or opposite sex marriage does not necessarily embrace coupledom.. many gay and lesbian people would marry more than one other person if it was legalised.. although most would not.. as indeed I think would be the case with most bisexuals whatever their gender; and trans too.. I can only answer ur question in accord with the answer I believe can be given.. I am not avoiding the question at all. U get the answer as the answer exists in my mind.. it is not me who dismisses the aspirations of another sexuality and who wishes to deprive them of rights, Tenni... nor is it the gay and lesbian communities.. individually some are as u and others claim. But not the communities as a whole..

I have not lost sight of the purpose of the question as u seem to think.. it is not about trans peeps, but transpeeps are a consideration among many others...we cannot decide to boycott something or not without discussing whether or not there are good and valid reasons for that boycott... until those are answered to the satisfaction of all or otherwise how can we make an informed decision?

Many bisexual people argued against same sex marriage and some on this site too if memory serves me correctly... Many heterosexual people argue that opposite gender marriage should not be for one reason or other.. so don't try that one on me.. it just doesn't wash... are those who argued against marriage, same or opposite sex in any community the majority? No they are not.. so ur statement is spurious as a reason to boycott anything... do most gays deny that bisexuality exists and feel that bisexuals have no place in the lgbt? No they don't... do most bisexuals loathe gays and wish to fuck off into the ether and do their own thing? I don't believe so but there are times when I seriously wonder... many heterosexuals loathe both gay and bisexual people.. and trans too.. but neither does the majority of of either community wish 2 discriminate against us.

[tenni]

“Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. :"


darkeyes
I think is we stop with the above statement , it is clear that Pride and GLBT organizations do bisexuals little good except when it comes to same gender relationships in a monosexual rather than bisexual manner. If you show the side of you that gays comprehend they will support you. If you show your side of you that heterosexual monosesxuals comprehend, they will support you. If you show your bisexual self, neither will comprehend and support you. If bisexuals do not articulate their needs nothing will change. Bi invisibility will continue in GLBT organizations.

The rest of your comments seem to be apples and oranges discussion. Bringing in trans is being apples (bisexual or sexual ) compared to oranges(gender issues (transgender vs CSI gender).

side bar..intersting that auto correct changed transgender to transponder...duh..lol

[Gearbox]

we have the reality of sex acts..... if its male and female, its not a bisexual act, its a hetero act ( very little said about that ) if its two females, its not a bisexual act, its a lesbian act ( very lil said about that ) if its two guys its not a bisexual act its a gay act ( protest marches in 11 cities, numerous threads, accusations about trying to hide the * truth * )

There are no heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual acts. There are only sexual acts that no sexuality has claim to. Lets teach those 'children' actual reality.
For one who protests labels so eagerly, yet also leans to the Pansexual view................how does this skip your mind?
One Gay Parade too many?

bisexual, monogamy is fine, open / close and poly is fine.... no wait... what the hell are you thinking... you have no right to choose monogamy, if you do you are confirming, its your partners fault, society and religion are forcing you.......

Really? There are people forcing you be non-monog? Are they called Gin & Tonic? Or maybe it's Tequila?
If you really are being forced into non-monog sex acts by a bisexual, please phone the police at once! "No!" means "NO!", lets not forget.

it all sounds easy to talk about, but when it comes down to actually showing people about bisexuality, there is a very one sided and unbalanced view of bisexuality that is actually being pushed by people.... yet when it comes to twisted and unbalanced views of bisexuality... the heteros gays and lesbians are being blamed for it.....

It's NOT easy to talk about it when you use amazingly vague descriptions like that, yet still expect people to know what your talking about.
So what are these gays & lesbians being falsely accused of, and what is the 'one sided unbalanced view' of bisexuality you are talking about?

that in a nutshell is why teaching people about bisexuality is bloody near impossible and that is using issues that have come up in this site in regards to sharing about and talking about bisexuality and bisexuals to other people or the terms used in the media to refer to aspects of bisexuality....

Lets just have a big old Gay Parade and forget about that bi thingymajig nonsense?

[tenni]

Gear post 63 is hilarious

Gays to the left...hop....hop...hop

Gays to the right.......hop......hop........hop

There all better..those pesky bisexuals.

"one too many gay parades"...lol

[darkeyes]

“Is it possible for the lgbt to do something for bisexuals and not for gays? That is very questionable.. :"


darkeyes
I think is we stop with the above statement , it is clear that Pride and GLBT organizations do bisexuals little good except when it comes to same gender relationships in a monosexual rather than bisexual manner. If you show the side of you that gays comprehend they will support you. If you show your side of you that heterosexual monosesxuals comprehend, they will support you. If you show your bisexual self, neither will comprehend and support you. If bisexuals do not articulate their needs nothing will change. Bi invisibility will continue in GLBT organizations.

The rest of your comments seem to be apples and oranges discussion. Bringing in trans is being apples (bisexual or sexual ) compared to oranges(gender issues (transgender vs CSI gender).

side bar..intersting that auto correct changed transgender to transponder...duh..lol

Nothing of the kind is clear at all.. it is how u wish it to be, but often what we wish for cannot be.. both gay and heterosexual, the less bigoted kind are perfectly capable of comprehending the kinds of things u wish for.. for God's sake.. many of them think and wish for the same within the context of their own sexuality.. the things that u claim for bisexuals are easily transposed to what u would call a monosexual environment and many whom u call monosexuals aspire to this end.. not the majority I accept by a long long way but then do the majority of bisexuals? But to say they cannot comprehend it? Good grief man.. they may not agree with closed loop relationships and multi-person marriages but they are more than able to comprehend them ok. Not all bisexuals would accept those same aspirations.. so it isn't all one way.

That bisexuals should articulate their needs I agree with completely.. not all gays or lesbians are able to do that, and neither are all heterosexuals or all of anyone else.. nothing u have said changes my mind 1 jot.. I am still of the opinion that as a loose grouping, the lgbt is by far the best way forward for us all.. individually each queer group is weakened greatly if we all go our own way, and we are also weakened greatly if one sexuality decides to call it a day and do its own thing.. and bisexuals would be weakened as much as any.. maybe I am wrong. The proof of the pudding is if the lgbt does break up into its constituent parts (whatever those may be) or if a part of it decides to go off and do whatever it is it wants to do....

I too appreciated Gear's reply to Duckie.. I too found it funny for it was well thought out, had a point and some of it I could even agree with.. I am able to laff at meself and me own kind... however I think ur response was once again unpleasant and unnecessary, contemptuous and dismissive and showed a lack of respect for people with whom u do not agree.. it showed a contempt for the gay and lesbian community which would be fitting in a British National party circular.. it displayed a very marked homophobia...

[Long Duck Dong]

well gear...... they are the same issues that have arisen in the site and have involved you, me, fran and tenni.......

most of them are the stance of you, tenni or both or others in the site........

1) a bisexual man having sex, is a bisexual act, not a gay act ( tenni )
2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )
and they are the only two you really addressed....and yes, its all a big joke when somebody else points it all out and apparently its a sexuality point of view.... so does that make you and tenni, pansexual since you both have the anti monogamy stance ?

so how do you teach a 5 year old about sexuality and bisexuals, gear ? well as a parent I thought you would have taken that a bit more seriously and actually posted about how you would do it since you brought it up

have I explained sexuality to kids, yes.... I have posted about how my sister and I have dealt with that in the past.....and for me, its normally a case of saying that I can love their mother and father in the same way that their mother and father love each other.... because it gives the kid something tangible to relate to....... and when it comes to sharing with kids about issues and arguments like what is going on in this thread.... its not the sexuality that is the issue, its the attitude and the opinion of the person and that is why anybody can be rude and nasty....and anybody can be nice and respectful and thats why we should not judge people according to their sexuality, race or gender.......

as for bisexuals being visible well LGBT parade can be seen by children as well as adults and by being visible, the kids can see that bisexuals are real people..... and without a pride parade, they are not going to see us..... so we have the option to not go and not be visible or go and be invisible, so there is more to a choice of not going to a pride parade than a petty issue with SOME gay and lesbian people.... so we are responsible for our own visibility when it comes to being visible bisexuals......

[tenni]

darkeyes

I guess that you are too young to remember the "bunny hop"..a dance move....hands on the waist of the person in front of you and obediently hopping. (gr 7 Phys Ed class dance intro) in this case showing moving to the right with three hops and moving to the left with three hops takes you back to where you started...I hope that you are bunny phobic? or practise bunny hop erasure..lol Bunnies every where will know that fran is not bunny phobic...honest bunnies.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes

I guess that you are too young to remember the "bunny hop"..a dance move....hands on the waist of the person in front of you and obediently hopping. (gr 7 Phys Ed class dance intro) in this case showing moving to the right with three hops and moving to the left with three hops takes you back to where you started...I hope that you are bunny phobic? or practise bunny hop erasure..lol Bunnies every where will know that fran is not bunny phobic...honest bunnies.

.. am very fond of bunnies... bunny stew is very nice... and I find them for the most part cute... even had a bunny costume for fancy dress.. however it attracted quite the wrong kind of hunter so it had to go...

.. yep.. am far 2 young...and nope... the Bunny Hop is not summat we ever did up here in PE.. the Hokey Cokey at Primary and Scottish Country dancing at High School.. and if that sounds grim.. it is more grim than it sounds wen u have to do it... and in almost 2 decades.. norra lot has changed... howeva.. 1ce away from a school environment.. and on a drunken Hogmanay or a Ceilidh or such like.. the Dashing White Sergeant can b fun cos the hair is down an no 1 gives a hoot and they all just do their own thing falling over ther own an otha peeps feet... Mairi's Wedding is fun at such times, but the Gay Gordon is not as it sounds.. it is also a dance that is almost impossible to have fun wiv wether ur sozzed or not...

[Gearbox]

1) a bisexual man having sex, is a bisexual act, not a gay act ( tenni )
2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )
and they are the only two you really addressed....and yes, its all a big joke when somebody else points it all out and apparently its a sexuality point of view.... so does that make you and tenni, pansexual since you both have the anti monogamy stance ?

Although there are members with multiple accounts, I'm not one of them and I'm not Tennii. Very few in the world will agree on every detail of every thing, and that is usually a good thing. It gets things aired and checked. Things that go unchecked are usually not as good as we think, or even not thought about at all. I happen to like those things.
1a - One day I was sucking on a gf's clitoris and noticed how it was like sucking a tiny penis. Was that a hetero, homo or bi sex act?
1b - Sometimes while fucking a man, I imagine him to be a woman (and visa versa). What does that make the act?
1c - If I get stuck in a lift with a man, is that a homosexual act? No sex, but it's two men.
1d - If I have a solo wank watching lesbian porn, is that a homo, bi, hetero or lesbian sex act?
1e - If I marry a man, would that be a homosexual marriage?
1f - Was I having a 3some in 1b?
1g - does the mind count for nothing and the physical count for all?

2. Tenni & I have an anti-monogamy stance? I have yet to meet or talk to one homosexual male who as either cheated on their partner or has been cheated on by their partner. There is plenty of that going on with hetero's too. Yet you point out that bisexuals in particular have an anti-monog stance?
What SOME bisexuals do is point out a reason to opt out of monog. YES that is often objected to, but it's a reason no other can give.
You can chose monogamy for yourself. Not for anybody else!
It's a Human Nature stance, not a Pansexual or non-monog one.

so how do you teach a 5 year old about sexuality and bisexuals, gear ? well as a parent I thought you would have taken that a bit more seriously and actually posted about how you would do it since you brought it up

I was referring to 5yo's picking up the concept of 'gay' from social awareness, not directly from parental tuition. Ask a 5yo what 'gay' is and they'll most prob tell you some some idea of it. It is that ingrained into society. In one way it is a good thing. But IMO it is also a bad thing: Children are being taught that there is a separation of sexuality, that it is rigid and unwavering - Gay & Straight. That they must eventually ID as one thing or another etc.
Bisexuality and fluidity is not something they will encounter from social awareness. In puberty most will naturally explore it......but won't learn that it IS natural to be fluid unless they do their own research. Research that will be highly attacked by many homosexuals.
If they happen to be gay.....BINGO!

have I explained sexuality to kids, yes.... I have posted about how my sister and I have dealt with that in the past.....and for me, its normally a case of saying that I can love their mother and father in the same way that their mother and father love each other.... because it gives the kid something tangible to relate to....... and when it comes to sharing with kids about issues and arguments like what is going on in this thread.... its not the sexuality that is the issue, its the attitude and the opinion of the person and that is why anybody can be rude and nasty....and anybody can be nice and respectful and thats why we should not judge people according to their sexuality, race or gender.......

My daughter is lucky to have a bisexual female cousin she calls Auntie, and a gay male friend she calls Uncle.....and of course a bi dad.lol
No she didn't need telling what same gender partnerships were at 5yo. BUT I have explained that SHE has a choice to love whoever and whatever she likes when she is older.
When it comes to being nasty, I don't give a toss what their sexuality is. They can march around claiming this & that until they are blue in the teeth. If they talk shit, they talk shit! If they feel like throwing a stone or two at a bisexual, they will get a stone or seven back.
That is what I teach my daughter - if you throw stones, you'd better make sure that you're without sin first.

as for bisexuals being visible well LGBT parade can be seen by children as well as adults and by being visible, the kids can see that bisexuals are real people..... and without a pride parade, they are not going to see us..... so we have the option to not go and not be visible or go and be invisible, so there is more to a choice of not going to a pride parade than a petty issue with SOME gay and lesbian people.... so we are responsible for our own visibility when it comes to being visible bisexuals......

No you got it wrong there! It's BISEXUALITY that is made invisible, not the bisexuals themselves. We are everywhere, but so are the gay bi-erasers.
If bisexuality is to be visible, then some of us need to get real and tackle the gay bigots. Not make excuses and blame bi's for it coz they don't ALL want to march in some parade.
The LGBT needs a good overhaul. It's embarrassing to have a sexuality based movement with such a poor view of sexuality. That is why there are so many gays spouting utter tripe about bi's.

[jamieknyc]

At least in New York, they have greatly toned down the flaming behavior. The parade organizers decided several years ago that muscle boys dancing around in g-strings and dykes-on-bikes was not the image that gay organizations wanted to project.

Some friends of mine who are active in LGBT organization politics do tell me that bisexuals get the short end of the stick. One organizer even went so far as to compile a report card to major LGBT organizations, grading them according to their responsiveness to bi interests.

[tenni]

“2) monogamy is wrong ( you and tenni )”

This has nothing to do with boycotting Pride events.
(usual illogical off topic BS from the above poster


Monogamy is not wrong. It is not necessarily right either. That is a heteromormative mononsexual, morality value. Personal choice that is not the best relationship style for bisexuals imo.


Bi Invisibility has nothing to do with marching in Pride parades. It is systemic avoidance, ignoring removing reference to bisexuality.
When is the last time that these Pride GL organizations corrected the comments in the media about a married (to a woman) man being caught having sex in washrooms as bisexual instead of gay? NEVER? Yet, the possibility of a married man (to a woman) is far greater to be a bisexual than gay if he also has sex with another man.

*I suspect that most bisexuals don't want these religious fundamentalist two faced characters connected to bisexuality though.

An argument that if bisexuals march with gays it raises their acceptance may be at the core of this thread though. The vast majority of bisexuals will not march with gays in a Pride parades. Clearly, marching in Pride events is not seen as of any benefit to bisexuals for a variety of reasons.

One point of this thread is why? Since bisexuality has been proven to be the largest group on non heterosexuals, clearly, most bisexuals do not adhere to gay political philosophy including marching down a street beside near naked gay men/women(in Toronto completely naked men except for shoes on), men in drag, dykes on bikes with bare breasts etc. Pride events do not meet the needs of bisexuals. Another factor is that many bisexuals do not identify strongly enough with bisexuality. Many bisexuals prefer to be invisible as far as using gay political strategies of the 70's etc.