Gaza Aid Convoy

[Canticle]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious!

Good post! I had a boss, when I worked, who told everyonr he had trained commandos in WWII, and taught them how to kill. He's had a desk job and never left the country. Whereas i had an uncle who was in the 8th Army, had friends blown to pieces around him and came out of that war with bad memories and severe deafness.

[Canticle]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

Have to echo the post above. The sad thing is, you actually seem proud of that violent streak, you keep telling us about. no one would diss your service in the Gulf. You were doing your job, just as soldiers are doing today.

[Canticle]

And you just keep spouting the same thing. You don't agree with pictures or videos therefore they are either doctored or propaganda. You keep slamming Israel, I keep defending. End game. There is no way you can condone the actions of people who put over 700 lives at risk not to mention the lives of the soldiers. But you keep safe in your little bed while you type things you know nothing about regarding military actions and maybe someday you will be able to actually thank the men and women who put their lives on the line so you can sit safe in your little bed.

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

[DuckiesDarling]

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

[Long Duck Dong]

You're quite right, I will never condone the actions of the israeli forces, which put so many lives in danger and ended with nine people being killed.

A soldier is doing his job. He/She knows what may happen. The people on the aid ship, reacted in the same manner many people would have done. If they had fought back against soldiers, from a regime you despised, I have a feeling that your views would be very different.

ok can I please have the nz police force wiped out...... seriously they place my life at risk when I decide to fail to stop at a drink driving check point... and that could result in my death and others, even tho i know that they have check points to stop drinking drivers....

they are doing their job, they know that there is a risk that I will break the nz law on drinking and driving... but I should have the right to run them down cos I do not like them infringing on my * self imposed * right to drink and drive...... the fact that I risk others on the road by my actions, means nothing.... as its about what I want to do, even if the result is somebody else dies.....


but wait, I respect the police even tho I do not always agree with the way they do things..... they do the best they can in the face of shit from people, in order to try and keep other drivers safe on the road

ranticle, you remind me of the people in nz that blame the police every time they try to pull over speeding / drink driving assholes, that cause a accident resulting in injury or death cos they speed away from the police cos they know they are in deep shit if they get caught......

maybe you would like to join the green party in nz, the government group that opposed the police having and using tasers.... they are the same group that strangely went very quiet when 3 policeman and one civilian was shot last year in nz by a gunman, and a cop died....... cos they didn't have a taser that could have saved the cops life.... stopped a 3 day shooting spree, endangered more than 50 people.... and resulted in the gunman taking his own life......

at the end of the day, you can blame the israelis under you turn blue in the face.... but, you have to admit that if the aid was handled by the red cross, and shipped to ashdod port, like most shipments are, that nobody would have died on the ships....... actually you do not have to admit it at all..... there is more than enuf people in the world that understand that well enuf to have not tried to break the blockage.... and we know that, cos they are on the other ships that transport aid to gaza, without loss of life

[Long Duck Dong]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

[darkeyes]

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

The more Fran learns about this, the more she is curious.. the more she sees parallels with another place where even more people were attacked by paratroopers while on a demo.. a place where all the film of the time shows intimidation by a mob.. where those paratroopers claimed they were shot at and attacked.. where a Government backed them up and claimed that those self same paratroopers were responding to having been shot at and attacked.. where the people of the country in whose name they killed all those demonstrators buried their heads in the sand and did not believe that their nice boys would attack and butcher 13 people without provocation.. and where 40 years later the truth did come out and those self same paratroopers have been damned by history and the weight of evidence, and three Prime Ministers have had no option but to apologise to the families of the dead..

.. I keep harping back on this.. but it is important.. why doesnt Israel release the film of the incident, unedited taken by those on board the ship journalist and activist.. what has been shown is important...but without the film taken by those on board.. suspicion will always be on the Israeli's that they went overboard so to speak, and acted just as those other soldiers in another place all those years ago.. why, if they have nothing to fear?

[darkeyes]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

One thing at a time Duckie darlin'.. no 1 has a crystal ball and can tell what will happen.. I don't accept the prophecy such as it is.. often doing the right thing has many unexpected and unpleasant consequences.. but unless Israel and the Palestinians do come to agreement an things are sorted out, my fear is that that fullscale war is almost inevitable with savage and very scary consequences for us all.. one thing is certain.. the present situation is certainly unnacceptable and is causing nothing but greater bitterness and misery..

[Long Duck Dong]

there is a lot of footage taken on board that has been shared in the thread.....
but like the israeli footage, its not all the footage.... its selected footage....

thats normal, I would expect it from both sides.... but the only story that is consistent, is the israeli side......
the protestors have claimed that all the footage was taken by the israelis ( yet we are watching it online )....

that bullets were fired at the ships.... ( yes protestors were shot on the ships but no proof of bullets fired at the ships, only paint balls )

that the protestors were manhandled and treated like PoW's ( yes 17 hours is a lifetime compared to people held for 4-5 years )

that the israelis shot at the protestors and used unreasonable force ( yet protestors on the other ships talk about assisting the israelis on board from their boats......

there is something bugging me fran, and its based around what the protestors show in one of the videos, its the laminated IDs .... I am beginning to wonder if the boarding the ships was not about just stopping the ships, I am beginning to wonder if they were also after suspected or known militant extremists that were hoping to get into the gaza strip to assist and aid with the attacks on israel.....

from the start, something has not rang true with the boarding.... and its not just been the way the turkish protestors acted....... if that is the case, yes israel has something to hide or avoid talking about...... and that would support your PoV that the truth is not being told....

[darkeyes]

Have to echo the post above. The sad thing is, you actually seem proud of that violent streak, you keep telling us about. no one would diss your service in the Gulf. You were doing your job, just as soldiers are doing today.

He is..either that or he is talking through his backside.. or both..

[Pasadenacpl2]

So, which part am I lying about, Fran? Specifically?

Am I lying about being a member of a rennie combat organization?
Am I lying about doing so for nearly 2 decades?
Am I lying about being knighted within the organization (twice, I might add)?
Am I lying about being attacked?
Am I lying about the result?
Am I lying about my service during the Gulf War?
Am I lying about pipes being lethal weapons?

Get specific. Don't be coy, and don't hide behind your boot girl speak. Be very, very specific about which thing I said that is a lie.

@Adam. Nope. I'm not a bad ass. I'm considered upper middle tier as a sword fighter. I hold my own, and that's about it. And that's sorta the point. In even a mildly competent person's hands, a pipe becomes a very deadly weapon.

@Canticle Am I violent? No. Am I willing to be? Yes. Am I proud? Depends on the situation. I don't see violence as something to be eschewed, or to be reviled.

But, the violence itself was not the point of my post. Either you knew that and decided to try to twist it to make yet another attack on me, or you didn't catch the point. I'm going to be a bit more magnanimous than usual and assume you just didn't catch it. The point was: Those people, on that boat, were armed and using deadly weapons. That no IDF died does not change that.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

now I am going to ask a question..... one which I have asked earlier in the thread and NOBODY answered it

if israel is to remove the blockade and egypt lifts the land blockade.... and weapons shipments go to the gaza strip..... then...... I ask this

whose side are you going to take, when a full scale war and mass bloodshed breaks out.....

1) will you side with the countries that send in the weapons
2) will you side with the anti Israelis
3) will you side with the pro Israelis
4) will you support the countries that attack both sides to stop the fighting, or protect themselves from the fallout
5) will you be able to justify the mass loss of life resulting from this and stand by your stance that israel is wrong for the blockade
6) will you clap your hands and say yes, israel and egypt did the right thing in removing the blockades.....and ignore the shit storm

and 7) will you admit that the blockades ( illegal or legal ) are stopping a mass loss of life ? or ignore the fact that many more would have died if it was not for the blockades

If they drop the blockade, the shipments of arms is a forgone conclusion. Anyone who says different (that we just don't know) is delusional. Iran and Syria have been supplying them with arms for 20 years. We know this. It's documented all over the place. That's like taking a loaded pistol, firing 4 rounds and then turning it on yourself saying 'I don't know that if I pull the trigger a round will come out of the gun and kill me.' It's worse stupidity than Russian Roulette.

I'll side with Israel. I'll side with them against Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and anyone else who wants to get in the scrum with them. Honestly, if they are that stupid, they deserve what's coming to them.

Iran had better hope that this turns correctly. For all of their blustering, they HAVE to know that they are target #1. They have to know that their nation will be turned into a nuclear wasteland. No one, especially Israel, will waste the personnel to try to fight Iran across Iranian geography. They'll take the easier route, the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

In reference to the video. You have to remember, Tenni, that I was being sort of.....sarcastic.....not well worded ....perhaps.

[tenni]

It is interesting how posters get involved in hurt feelings etc. and begin not to stay on topic. just a thought.

The reports indicate now that Israel will permit a wider range of materials being brought into Gaza if it is supervised by Internationals at the Egypt /Gaza border...or other land access points maybe. It has not been offically declared. Israel still wants to keep the sea blockade though.

The injustice of holding people hostage without civil rights in Gaza and Palestine continues to be Israel's position. There still seems to be a duality of expectations from Israel. Gazan's and Paletstinians are not Israel citizens with full voting rights to be represented in the Kineset. Arabs holding Israeli citizenship because they live /born in Israel but outside of Gaza and Palestine do have some voting rights. I believe that they have municipal voting rights but not national voting rights. Now, it is also possible that the Palestinians may refuse this right of citizenship in hopes of being sovereign. They do have their own governments in Gaza & Palestine that they vote in democratically. It has been a long time of various changes and demands that it gets confusing.

I may be wrong with my perspective in the above paragraph though. If I'm correct , there definitely is an Apartheid approach to non Jewish people who are semites within this territory. Israel claims Gasa as its own territory and that it has the right to blockade it but denies civil rights to those living in these two territories. It is unjust.

If Iran, etc. may not supply weapons to Gaza then the US & other countries providng aid used for military purposes to Israel should stop providing funding and weapons to Israel. Sadly, the US & Canadian etc. politics seems to prevent this.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

[tenni]

Please expand upon your thought so that I do not misinterpret "moral equivalence"?

That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

That would only be true if there were moral equivalence..which there is not.

Pasa

..in your opinion...

[Canticle]

interesting....footage that is supposed to contradict the Israeli version sure seems to say the Israelis were right.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-fo...i-account.html

around 3 minutes into the video you see the person told they can't film in a place, then you see a man in a blue shirt speaking in Arabic to a group. The word that jumps out is Jihad. You see them preparing wooden sticks and knives and holding chains, you see them as anything other than peaceful. So thanks for posting that piece of propanganda, perhaps they need to edit a bit more closely next time instead of proving to the world they set out to cause an international incident and didn't care how many lives were lost in the process.

In fact, visisble towards the beginning of the video is the same man seen in other footage claiming he didn't get the chance to be a martyr last time, he hopes he can now.

I am beginning to believe that people will see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe, even when watching a video...be it the very long raw footage, or a shorter, edited form.

It is not a sinister sign, if cameramen were asked not to film in a certain area. This was a sea going vessel, a reasonably large one and it is only to be expected, that for their own safety and for the safety of other passengers and the crew, certain areas would be out of bounds. It doesn't mean, that the camera crew were stopped from filming some ''arms fashioning,'' part of the ship.

The gentleman in the blue shirt was reading something and ended with some song. Yes, the word ''jihad,'' was plainly heard. Have you researched the word ''jihad'' ? I typed into Google, the following, ''the true meaning of the word 'jihad.' '' There are, obviously, many, many links, which will come up in any one search. Here are a few.....explaining the many meanings, usages and connotations, of the word 'jihad.'

http://www.mediamonitors.net/shaziamirza2.html

http://www.mediamonitors.net/ahmedmotiar1.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/10259

http://www.people.howstuffworks.com/jihad.htm

http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=2

http://www.muslim.org/islam/jihad.htm

Now, there are loads of different links to read, some written by Muslims, some not, but the ones which I have read, all mention 'jihad,' as meaning a struggle......whether that be spiritual or temporal. It does not mean a ''holy war.''

The hour long, raw footage of video, does indeed, show people holding sticks and bars. I will have to look even closer, for I have yet to see knives or chains. From soon after the Israeli troops landing upon the ship, it becomes obvious, that people were getting injured and not by painball guns being fired at them.

I would suggest that the people upon the aid ship had as much right to bear arms, as did revolutionary forces in the 13 colonies. So if there was a jihad, it took place upon that ship, with people struggling against a heinous foe. It could also be said, that the Israeli attack, upon a humanitarian aid ship, was deliberately planned, to cause such a reaction, from people who were not necessarily aboard ship, to instigate hostilities, but to merely deliver aid to Gaza.....but people who WERE prepared to defend themselves. Something you seem to believe, they had no right to do.

I also Googled the word 'martyr,' and tried desperately to find a non religious site, where a more secular meaning to the word, could be found.

I grew up hearing that word, 'martyr,' quite a lot. It was a word found in my highly intelligent mother's vocabulary. When she used it, there was no religious connotation inferred.

It was often used to describe someone who was a martyr to the situation that they were in, when there was a clear way out of it. A martyr to their misery, usually self-inflicted. A martyr to being treated badly by others.

A martyr to the evils of too much alcohol. A martyr to being controlled and enabled by another person. A martyr to desires, that brought that person no happiness, just the company of the lowest of the low.

A martyr, because some people, tend to wallow in such situations.

I have always considered that to use this word, 'martyr,' in a purely religious inference, is wrong. Perhaps that is what happens to some extremist Muslims. They confuse the true meaning of the word, with religion and politics and think of the word 'martyr,' or of 'jihad,' in totally the wrong light.

If the word 'jihad,' means 'struggle,' then we have all had our own very personal jihad. If the word 'martyr,' really means witness (or perhaps, experience), then we have all had our own, very personal martyrdom.

http://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructio...ns/martyr.html

[Canticle]

its in this one tenni... the guy states it in english, .....not arabic

martyr vid

And you are mis-understanding the meaning of the word martyr or shahid(shaheed) and the word jihad.

[Canticle]

Bullshit. The only people putting their lives at risk are the activists who chose to think they were Rambo. Get a clue, Canticle. It's been shown again and again the activists attacked the soldiers, therefore the activists are responsible for the lives lost.

I have a clue. You are so pro-Israel, you will never see the bigger picture. The attacks on soldiers, were defence. It was the soldiers who landed upon the ship, not the people on the ship, upon the helicopter.

[darkeyes]

So, which part am I lying about, Fran? Specifically?

Am I lying about being a member of a rennie combat organization?
Am I lying about doing so for nearly 2 decades?
Am I lying about being knighted within the organization (twice, I might add)?
Am I lying about being attacked?
Am I lying about the result?
Am I lying about my service during the Gulf War?
Am I lying about pipes being lethal weapons?

Get specific. Don't be coy, and don't hide behind your boot girl speak. Be very, very specific about which thing I said that is a lie.

@Adam. Nope. I'm not a bad ass. I'm considered upper middle tier as a sword fighter. I hold my own, and that's about it. And that's sorta the point. In even a mildly competent person's hands, a pipe becomes a very deadly weapon.

@Canticle Am I violent? No. Am I willing to be? Yes. Am I proud? Depends on the situation. I don't see violence as something to be eschewed, or to be reviled.

But, the violence itself was not the point of my post. Either you knew that and decided to try to twist it to make yet another attack on me, or you didn't catch the point. I'm going to be a bit more magnanimous than usual and assume you just didn't catch it. The point was: Those people, on that boat, were armed and using deadly weapons. That no IDF died does not change that.

Pasa

I did not say you were lying.. if you care to read what I said, I merely agreed with Canticle.. and observed that you do seem inordinately proud of being a macho thoroughly unpleasant type who gloried in the possibilities for all sorts of potential human destruction to anyone you don't like.. much of your talk I see and hear every day at work.. macho boys who are in reality little scared boys who talk tough only.. I don't know which you are.. you do.. it was not an accusation of lying, but an observation that you talk like one who may be.. or are bragging about attributes you do have..or maybe a bit of both.

Whichever I'm not fussed.. I actually take you on face value.. therefore I judge you a braggart and a bully with an extremely thin skin.. a thoroughly unedifying thing in a big brave boy.. of course I may be very wrong and you are not as I think you are.. but nothing you have written so far can make me change my mind on that...

[Canticle]

''ok can I please have the nz police force wiped out...... seriously they place my life at risk when I decide to fail to stop at a drink driving check point... and that could result in my death and others, even tho i know that they have check points to stop drinking drivers....

they are doing their job, they know that there is a risk that I will break the nz law on drinking and driving... but I should have the right to run them down cos I do not like them infringing on my * self imposed * right to drink and drive...... the fact that I risk others on the road by my actions, means nothing.... as its about what I want to do, even if the result is somebody else dies.....


but wait, I respect the police even tho I do not always agree with the way they do things..... they do the best they can in the face of shit from people, in order to try and keep other drivers safe on the road

ranticle, you remind me of the people in nz that blame the police every time they try to pull over speeding / drink driving assholes, that cause a accident resulting in injury or death cos they speed away from the police cos they know they are in deep shit if they get caught......

maybe you would like to join the green party in nz, the government group that opposed the police having and using tasers.... they are the same group that strangely went very quiet when 3 policeman and one civilian was shot last year in nz by a gunman, and a cop died....... cos they didn't have a taser that could have saved the cops life.... stopped a 3 day shooting spree, endangered more than 50 people.... and resulted in the gunman taking his own life......''

I'm not a Green part member. I'm not a member of any political party. I'm a Socialist and I'm my kind of Socialist.......same as I am my kind of Christian. I think for myself and don't follow the flock.

Guess what...I don't think police officers should carry tasers, nor guns. But, heck, you knew I was going to say that.

''at the end of the day, you can blame the israelis under you turn blue in the face.... but, you have to admit that if the aid was handled by the red cross, and shipped to ashdod port, like most shipments are, that nobody would have died on the ships....... actually you do not have to admit it at all..... there is more than enuf people in the world that understand that well enuf to have not tried to break the blockage.... and we know that, cos they are on the other ships that transport aid to gaza, without loss of life''

When it comes to the rest of the population of the world......I don't give a toss if they do not agree with me. I'm an individual.......never brainwashed by any religion or political party......never influenced by heroes and heroines......never that impressed with the good or bad people do........I take things as I find them. Mind you, there are some people in this world, who deliberately use, abuse and hurt people and run with the ''devil,'' (I don't believe in the devil...hence the quotation marks).

Save me the waffle LDD. I know you have a keen mind and a good spirit.

One question......how long is it, since you were in the forces?

Love and light.

C

[Hephaestion]

Ladies and gentle and not so gentlemen.

Yesterday "....The Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, has said Israel's recent raid on ships trying to deliver aid to the Gaza Strip has destroyed any chance of peace in the region for the foreseeable future...."

Today Israel promised to relax the the blockade on Gaza and to allow in more of the things that were required to sustain the populaiton and to rebuild the place.

"....Israel has announced it is easing the blockade of Gaza, to allow more civilian goods to enter the Palestinian territory It comes amid growing international pressure to end the embargo after an Israeli commando raid on an aid flotilla attempting to break the naval blockade of Gaza last month...."

A very sensible concessionon Israel's part.

The devil is in the detail and the world is watching.

.

[Canticle]

I did not say you were lying.. if you care to read what I said, I merely agreed with Canticle.. and observed that you do seem inordinately proud of being a macho thoroughly unpleasant type who gloried in the possibilities for all sorts of potential human destruction to anyone you don't like.. much of your talk I see and hear every day at work.. macho boys who are in reality little scared boys who talk tough only.. I don't know which you are.. you do.. it was not an accusation of lying, but an observation that you talk like one who may be.. or are bragging about attributes you do have..or maybe a bit of both.

Whichever I'm not fussed.. I actually take you on face value.. therefore I judge you a braggart and a bully with an extremely thin skin.. a thoroughly unedifying thing in a big brave boy.. of course I may be very wrong and you are not as I think you are.. but nothing you have written so far can make me change my mind on that...

I was too polite to say all that.....

[Canticle]

''If they drop the blockade, the shipments of arms is a forgone conclusion. Anyone who says different (that we just don't know) is delusional. Iran and Syria have been supplying them with arms for 20 years. We know this. It's documented all over the place. That's like taking a loaded pistol, firing 4 rounds and then turning it on yourself saying 'I don't know that if I pull the trigger a round will come out of the gun and kill me.' It's worse stupidity than Russian Roulette.''

Exactly...no one knows.......especially Israel.....but we do know what Israel is capable of......and it's not nice.

''I'll side with Israel. I'll side with them against Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and anyone else who wants to get in the scrum with them. Honestly, if they are that stupid, they deserve what's coming to them.''

Why will you side with Israel......against anyone who wants to get in a scrum with them? Do you think that Israel, is never responsible for any attrocities? Do you, as a free thinking (?), individual, believe this, or do you just believe years and years of US government policy?

''Iran had better hope that this turns correctly. For all of their blustering, they HAVE to know that they are target #1. They have to know that their nation will be turned into a nuclear wasteland. No one, especially Israel, will waste the personnel to try to fight Iran across Iranian geography. They'll take the easier route, the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.''

Oh, do leave it out. Iran will be turned into a nuclear wasteland? Did you have any breakfast? You really believe that the rest of the world would tolerate a nuclear attack, by the US, upon Iran. not only attacking another sovereign nation and the cradle of religious civilisation, but also throwing the world into WWIII????? You believe that??? Maybe you do. Maybe you really do. I guess that way, you'd be getting your non-existent and never going to happen, Last day of Judgement.

''the one guaranteed to leave Iran a smoking ash pile, uninhabitable.''

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.
Fran...you're right..... Pasa talks out of his nether regions.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I was too polite to say all that.....

No, you just waited for someone else to say it so you could say 'good post.' So polite of you.

I'll post my reply to your complete butchering of logic in the other post when I'm not posting from a phone.

Pasa

[Canticle]

No, you just waited for someone else to say it so you could say 'good post.' So polite of you.

I'll post my reply to your complete butchering of logic in the other post when I'm not posting from a phone.

Pasa

You do that Pasa....if it keeps you busy!

As for your first sentence..... : cos it doesn't deserve an answer............

[DuckiesDarling]

I have a clue. You are so pro-Israel, you will never see the bigger picture. The attacks on soldiers, were defence. It was the soldiers who landed upon the ship, not the people on the ship, upon the helicopter.

And you are definitely Anti-Israel, as stated by all your posts. So I'd say you still don't have a clue, you are so convinced that any piece of footage that is rolled out is propaganda. And the Arabic meaning of Jihad as used by the Hamas and other Arab groups towards Israel is "holy war". And the guy obviously wanted to be a martyr, standard definition is die for a cause and be remembered hell even canonized for his death.

So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?

[Canticle]

And you are definitely Anti-Israel, as stated by all your posts. So I'd say you still don't have a clue, you are so convinced that any piece of footage that is rolled out is propaganda. And the Arabic meaning of Jihad as used by the Hamas and other Arab groups towards Israel is "holy war". And the guy obviously wanted to be a martyr, standard definition is die for a cause and be remembered hell even canonized for his death.

So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?

I am not anti Israel. I am anti some of the things that Israel does. I am totally anti any terrorism, as should we all be and against any attacks on the state of Israel.

I have as much clue as you, or anyone else. Yes, I do believe that the Israeli video, is pure propaganda. I won't change my mind on that. Like Fran says (and she has been just as critical of Israel, so why the attitude difference), if Israel releases all the video, confiscated, uncut...then the rest of the world would be able to see the evidence. I'm not happy to see carefully edited pieces of video and accept that as truth. If you are, then you cannot really be bothered, about the exact truth of what went on.

So, you won't look at links explaining the different meanings of 'jihad.' Why is that? I have looked at every link posted here. Is it that you have already made up your mind, that what is written will be rubbish, or can you not bear to look deeper into something.

Hamas (Hammas), may well mean a holy war, when they use the word 'jihad,' but people writing in those links, Muslims, say that is a wrong and an evil interpretation of the word. As for the guy in the video. From those few words, you cannot possibly know, exactly what he meant. No one can, but him.

''So spare me your wordy replies and all your links and just answer one thing. What are you gonna do when Israel drops a nuclear bomb? Clasp your hands and pray and say I'm sorry I just wanted a better life for them but now they have no life at all?''

No, I won't spare you my wordy replies. I'll express myself, how I wish. I would never want, the way another person posted, to change. If you don't want to see my posts, because they don't agree with you, then put me on ignore. I've never thought that the three wise monkeys approach, was a sensible one, myself.

Do you really think that Israel might drop a nuclear bomb. Wow, if they did, it would show them to be an extremely dangerous country. What a ridiculous thing to say. It would not only be Gaza that was obliterated. Israel would not last very long, or have you forgotten about all the other nuclear countries in the area.....apart from the fall out, over Israel itself.

You obviously think it's Ok for israel, as a Middle Eastern country to have nuclear weapons. If that is the case. If it's Ok for Israel to have them, then it should be Ok for any country to have them.

I have thought, from the very beginning of this thread, that you seem to be taking this event and any criticism of Israel, very personally. I have noticed that. You come over as so angry and so very angry that others will not support Israel, in this instance.

I have no hatred of Israel or any other country in the area. On any other issue, I would probably support Israel and not another party. However, on this point, like many others, I do not.

I don't believe that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza. If there is any blockade, this should be carried out by the UN. Maybe if the UN was in charge of searching aid ships, then those on board, would not feel that any blockade, needed breaking.

If Gaza is going to ever be a land, which can look after itself and it's people, it needs industry, it needs to feel free. Hamas may not be a good force, but they were elected and many Palestinians, see them as the only grouping, who are willing to fight for them. And if the Jews have a right to fight for their existence.....so do the Palestinians. And why should the Palestinians, or any other country or people, accept peace, only on Israel's terms.

So you ignore my links. I can't say that I am not surprised. Just a little saddened.

[hardnbubbly]

Wow.. everytime I check this there is are pages and pages of comments posted back. Anyway here is an interesting article stating why THE RED CROSS describes the Israeli blockade of Gaza as a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

I hope this a good enough answer to those who are saying that Israel is providing aid to Gaza. That is Israel is not an occupying power.

Of course if you choose to bury your head in the sand its up to .