Gaza Aid Convoy

[Hephaestion]

1) standard procedure..... trained professionals will be at ease at nighttime, but untrained civilians / protestors will not be as co ordinated....
there is also the possibility of closeness to the blockade line and it may have been a last minute action

2) to talk yes .... but they continued to sail forward....
they were asked to stop repeatedly and warned before they set sail, not to try and break the blockade..... how much more time did they need ????? another week ????

3) ahh I will argue that.... they fired across the bow, not at the ships, there is no footage showing any bullet impact marks on the ships.... I would expect that at least if shots were fired at the ships....

4) agreed and leave paint marks a bit like the * blood * that a journalist saw... that apparently turned out to be paint......
using paint balls would have been a way to turn and distract people and drive them back from the rappeling soliders....
btw thats not proven as what happened, but it would make sense and it can match the reports of shoots fired at the ship and paint on the rails....
but that would prove it was paintballs and not bullets that were fired at the ships

5) some of the protestors themselves made statements about that.... not the israelis, but the passengers on the ships... I am too lazy to look up the links again... but I recall the statements by protestors made within 2 days of the event, refering to the fact that the turkish protestors that attacked the soliders, never boarded at the same port the aid was loaded at, they boarded later at another port

6) how..... how would you stop them.... without disabling the ships....and risking everybody on body....

7) thats not disputed... the israelis boarded the ships, agreed...... but protestors using hostile force against soldiers is not a normal aspect of protestors or peaceful protest, its normally done by activists and extreme activists, not human aid protestors....

7) you put 7 twice.... but yes, loudhailers could be used... it doesn't mean that people will listen..... might makes right, a large loaded ship is not easy to stop and using loudhailers will not work that well when stopping ships, unless the captain gives the order to stop ship

8) nothing was found on board.... so the protestors had nothing to fear or hide...... yet they avoided stopping for a inspection
by defination would that give me the right to ignore police and fail to stop cos I have nothing to hide

9) nothing.... same as the protesters.... but I tend to think that you are like me...... not everything that is investigated, means that the truth is revealed either.....

people want to hear is that israel was wrong.....
not that the protesters acted in any manner that was wrong under the international aid laws that protected them..... but that israel was wrong...
and we both know that there will be a number of people not happy with any findings and rulings that find one or the other or both groups at fault.....

I say that if the ships had gone to port and being inspected, none of this would have happened, .... going to port may be right or wrong in peoples eyes.... but its a simple case of the deaths could have been avoided.....by a simple action.....

let the governments fight over if the blockade is legal or not.... the mission was to deliever aid to gaza and it would have got there without loss of life

1) OK so the people on board were terified. Innocents would be whereas militants / soldiers are unlikely to have been..

2) there was every right to continue sailing as they were in international waters and they deflected as an act of appeasement. Of course they were aware of the blockade and they were swayed by the inhumanity of it. Likely they expected the Israelis to be the kind generaous people that they claim to be.

3+4) paint splatters maybe. bullet marks who knows. The people on the boat wouldn't have got in the way to test this.

5 Being Turkish and on a Turlkish boat is not a crime. They could have been anything, including extra deck hands or the owners friends and not necessarily known to the people asked. Turks defending a Turkish boat against attack would be a natural consequence.

6) one chooses the moment to sail towards the boat and deflect. Ask the Royal Navy.

aplogies for the 2 sevens - over corrected double vision?

7a) This was an attack under cover of darkeness intentionally generating hysteria The passengers had every right to defend themselves especially in international waters. More than one boat was attacked.

7b) Loudhailers would have been a PR move to be overt in asking to stop and that would have informed the passengers to alay fear - but to alay fear and elicit cooperation wasn't the intention.

8) nothing on board = innocent. So why should they have been stopped or even inconvenienced. That is tantamount to being harassed for having curly hair and thick set lips because someone like that was involved in an incident.

9) if the Israelis have nothing to hide then they should be open. The fact that they are not being open means that they are trying hard to whitewash the events.

People do not want to hear that Israel was wrong as they are saying it for themselves in agreement with each other.

I agree, the mission was to deliver aid without mishap. That would have happened had the Israelis not created havoc.

Israel needs to change tactics for everyones good especially themselves.

.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Heph,

To date the Israelis have stopped nearly a hundred vessels in the past 18 months. All, but this one, without incident.

How do you explain that?

Pasa

[dardick]

I only read the first couple of pages of posts and am very impressed with the educated positions taken and lack of meat-head bashing of either side.

It is such a difficult issue. As a jewish person, I support Israel's place in the world, but in America, if one questions what the Israeli government does, you are labeled an antisemite. Just as the US was split over invading Iraq, Israeli's are split as to whether their government goes overboard in its actions.

However, how can Israel be demonized for checking boats for weapons while allowing aid supplies to come through. If Canada or Mexico launched ONE rocket into the US, the borders would be completely shut down and those countries would be reduced to a smoking crater. Now imagine thousands of rockets...

Not everything Israel does is right, but how can you blame them for this incident?

[Hephaestion]

Heph,

To date the Israelis have stopped nearly a hundred vessels in the past 18 months. All, but this one, without incident.

How do you explain that?

Pasa

I'll guess.

From the accumulated evidence, it would appear that the Iraelis were out to get particular people supected of being on that convoy. Nobody was going to stop their fun.

OR

Israel declaring how dare anynone think that they can do anything without Israeli permsssion even if it is innocent humanitarians from an ally. It's Israel versus the world and they are tough enough i.e they are on an ego trip.

OR

Maybe the odd 'enemy' body boosts party morale in domestic politics

OR

It's just a claim... one can carry on speculating

Maybe it's not one reason but combinations? Whatever the reason(s). It happened and it is criticised widely.

.

[Pasadenacpl2]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

yeah it could be misinformation..... but hey.. that would mean that every news source and video etc that people are linking to, watching, commenting on etc.... is mis information....

I mean I could be conned, it could be israeli commandoes sneaking into the gaza strip with rpgs and firing upon convoys in broad daylight, and not being detected at all by any other person in the gaza strip.....

but hang on a sec, I thought that the israelis only do night time attacks on unarmed, innocent protestors that are playing the drums with metal bars on ships that are lost at sea and not trying to break thru blockades....

sighs.... dammit, I am being conned so much.....

the protestors were not hitting the soldiers with bars, they were hugging them and offering to show them the lower decks the fast way.... and the blood was from the tomato sauce on the fish and chips

damm CNN and the other news sources for conning me so badly...... I now realise that there was no transport ships either, they were actually sail boats with nude blondes on board sharing drinks and cigars with bill Clinton

I may be sceptical.... but I am no idiot.....

reliable info such as the aid arranged by a pro islamic group with links to terrorist movements, is the first clue that something was up with the shipment...

700 protestors on a ship... how many of them were needed to unload it ????

media / reporters on board a mission aid ship..... yes I can support that and understand it...... but ahhhh why so many this time.... when most times there is a handful......

unless there is going to be a large media worthy event..... like the breaking of a blockade and the berthing in gaza of the ships ????

that is stuff that was going on, BEFORE the incident, that would indicate that something was going on... and had to have been arranged BEFORE the ships even sailed

Can it be that the Israelis like night time attacks on confined targets in preference? I am sure that their armaments work in the daylight also. Perhaps they get blinded by daylight; confused targets seem commonplace in western trained forces.

700 people - enough to carry a ship over a blockade maybe? or just lend a helping hand or as you suggest, be witnesses. If the last - it worked indicating that the Israelis are not so smart after all; and they still haven't understood the PR side of things.

Well tomato sauce was liberally spread over the passengers also. Oh wait. The sauce leaked from holes in their dead bodies. Whereas, the soldiers seemed not to have been shot. Seems hugging is not lethal.

If you've been conned by CNN I suggest complaining. I do symapthise.

.

[Hephaestion]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

It was the laminated identificaiton guide on who to look for

At least one other ship resisted but no deaths

[Pasadenacpl2]

and...source?

Pasa

[DuckiesDarling]

It was the laminated identificaiton guide on who to look for

At least one other ship resisted but no deaths

And your own words prove there was evidence of activists that were actually terrorists on that ship.

[Hephaestion]

And your own words prove there was evidence of activists that were actually terrorists on that ship.

Not so - the guide need not be accurate.

Sorry PAsa - the sources was the video

[Pasadenacpl2]

There have been a ton of them posted. Could you point me to the one you are referring to? I'd appreciate it.

I'm wondering why no one is talking about that, even on Globalsecurity.org.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There have been a ton of them posted. Could you point me to the one you are referring to? I'd appreciate it.

I'm wondering why no one is talking about that, even on Globalsecurity.org.

Pasa

posting #422 which points to a Globalsecurity video. There is a long video and a shorter extracted version. It is the 'document' written in hebrew that was found on one of the soldiers with pictures of people to be looked for - I think it said that in the comentary. It is definitely laminated as it catches the light. Elsewhere (non video) it was also said that the pictures were of people being sought by the Israelis on the Mavi Marmara (seen so much that like you I have trouble locating the reference).

On the video, it mentions that ship has altered course and they expect the Israelis to talk with them in the morning.

.

[darkeyes]

None of those guesses make sense. The first one might, but I still haven't seen evidence of these mysterious papers you have reference.

What does make sense is that the people on that ship decided to resist, where the others on the dozens of other ships that have been stopped in the past 18 months. This is not just a made up claim, btw, pretty easy to find the news reports, they were usually buried on page 30+ because no one gave a shit.

So, after all of these VERY peaceful stops, what made this ship different? There were 6 other ships in this particular flotilla. They didn't resist either.

So, what made this ship different?

Pasa

Maybe if Israel released unedited all the film taken by those on board we would get some idea why Pasa.. perish the thought that it may cause them further embarrassment and show just who was really to blame.. just what was so different about this ship? It took 40 years to get the truth about Bloody Sunday.. must we wait that long to find out the truth about this? Just what are they so afraid of?

[Bluebiyou]

On a side note,
I'm impressed Fran brought up a topic so hot as it got 555 replies and about ten times that in views... in two weeks.
And no one's gotten barred/banned!!!

[Canticle]

DD
I agree with some of the statements that you have posted in post 536.

I agree that the civilians on these ships were making a political point and protest.

I agree that they knew that they would resist going to Ashdad port and that they were prepared for Israel to do something but I have no proof that they knew that some would die. Some of the 700 may have thought that there would be violence but I suspect many were doing a peaceful resistant act...like the US Martin Luther King and blacks from that era did. King knew that he may be injured and killed but that did not stop him from trying to change injustices that he believed that he saw. Contrary to your belief, I have information from a Canadian on the ship (the Kevin in the video) did not expect killings. He expected to be arrested and maybe pushed a bit. He was on the ship where the murders happened. He states that Israel fired on them before boarding. He was there.

I agree that the civilian activists wanted Israel to act or that they knew that Israel may act to prevent them. That is what some people do to get the world to pay attention to injustice. The purpose was for most to be a peaceful protest in a pacifist manner. After three years hundred set out to make the world more aware of the suffering of the Gazans and the injustice that Israel was doing. They seem to have some success but only time will tell.

The rest of your beliefs I do not agree with.

I am unclear about who is breaking international law. I know that Israel did not follow protocol for boarding a cargo ship in international waters according to a Canadian International law expert. I do not believe that Israel has the "right" to have this blockade. The world has not sanctioned this any more than the world sanctioned the US invasion of Iraq. The world did sanction the US invasion of Afghanistan. See the difference?

As far as the US being a terrorist state under Bush, it is a reality that this belief exists in the world. Deny all you will. This is real whether you own it or not. Be more careful about accusing others of being terrorist states.

A good post Tenni....not a lot more to add there....a good post.

DD.....I fear it is you that is caught in a rut, because you seem prepared to defend Israel, no matter what......and I have a feeling that nothing would or will ever change that.....even if they end up being villified by the entire world....excluding the USA, of course.

Doctored videos are evil and vicious propaganda and it doesn't who produces that propaganda and about what situation. That video really was a work of art.......it would win the Turner prize if entered as a piece of art work........but not truth or reality......it didn't show that.....only the Israeli video editor's warped sense of reality.

The rest of your post....you're just bringing up the same stuff...over and over....and it's already been commented upon.

[Canticle]

I only read the first couple of pages of posts and am very impressed with the educated positions taken and lack of meat-head bashing of either side.

It is such a difficult issue. As a jewish person, I support Israel's place in the world, but in America, if one questions what the Israeli government does, you are labeled an antisemite. Just as the US was split over invading Iraq, Israeli's are split as to whether their government goes overboard in its actions.

However, how can Israel be demonized for checking boats for weapons while allowing aid supplies to come through. If Canada or Mexico launched ONE rocket into the US, the borders would be completely shut down and those countries would be reduced to a smoking crater. Now imagine thousands of rockets...

Not everything Israel does is right, but how can you blame them for this incident?

But Gaza is not Canada or Mexico. There are no historical and on going problems, on the American continent, in the same way, as there are in the Middle East. It is not even a scenario that can be imagined, although I do realise why you brought up the comparison. Sadly, no comparison can be made.

Not demonised. Held to account. I'm not going to repeat anything. Sorry, but you'll have to read over 500 posts.

[darkeyes]

On a side note,
I'm impressed Fran brought up a topic so hot as it got 555 replies and about ten times that in views... in two weeks.
And no one's gotten barred/banned!!!

Don't b so impressed Blue hun.. I just feel so desperately sad that I felt it necessary to raise it.. and that this dreadful slaughter occurred in the first place.. and that there is no meeting of minds between two very differing camps and no apparent desire to even try.. and just who suffers while selfish nasty b****** play games with their lives..

[Long Duck Dong]

1) OK so the people on board were terified. Innocents would be whereas militants / soldiers are unlikely to have been..

2) there was every right to continue sailing as they were in international waters and they deflected as an act of appeasement. Of course they were aware of the blockade and they were swayed by the inhumanity of it. Likely they expected the Israelis to be the kind generaous people that they claim to be.

3+4) paint splatters maybe. bullet marks who knows. The people on the boat wouldn't have got in the way to test this.

5 Being Turkish and on a Turlkish boat is not a crime. They could have been anything, including extra deck hands or the owners friends and not necessarily known to the people asked. Turks defending a Turkish boat against attack would be a natural consequence.

6) one chooses the moment to sail towards the boat and deflect. Ask the Royal Navy.

aplogies for the 2 sevens - over corrected double vision?

7a) This was an attack under cover of darkeness intentionally generating hysteria The passengers had every right to defend themselves especially in international waters. More than one boat was attacked.

7b) Loudhailers would have been a PR move to be overt in asking to stop and that would have informed the passengers to alay fear - but to alay fear and elicit cooperation wasn't the intention.

8) nothing on board = innocent. So why should they have been stopped or even inconvenienced. That is tantamount to being harassed for having curly hair and thick set lips because someone like that was involved in an incident.

9) if the Israelis have nothing to hide then they should be open. The fact that they are not being open means that they are trying hard to whitewash the events.

People do not want to hear that Israel was wrong as they are saying it for themselves in agreement with each other.

I agree, the mission was to deliver aid without mishap. That would have happened had the Israelis not created havoc.

Israel needs to change tactics for everyones good especially themselves.

.

2) yes they did... I agree.... but they were stopped before they reached the blockage and within a more suitable range of ashdod harbour....
but the reason for stopping them in international waters, would have been to stop them sailing thru the blockade as that can be ruled as a intentional act of war......and change the status from aid ship, to enemy sea going vessel.....

3+4) bullets leave holes, paintballs generally don't...... plus bullets striking a boat and deflecting, would give off riccochet sounds..... something that paint ballls don't...and something very clear to the human ear..... its not a sound you can dismiss or mistake easily

5) yes again I agree...... but why are there only reports of turkish activists attacking armed soldiers, turkish activists being shoot and killed and no hostile resistance from other nationalities....
based around the videos and going on the clothing, it would appear that the people of other nationalities ran the other way, below decks.....including the reporters..... maybe cos that would match the reactions of not hostile protestors and activists, they were not looking for trouble, they were on a aid mission

6) indeed, I agree, the point of least resistance or the point where no other option is left.....

7a) yes again, I agree..... but the cover of darkness is often used for a rush raid, or the early hours of the morning, most law enforcement groups perfer early morning raids, most combat missions work at night..... cos there is better cover, and if you believe that you are facing hostile resistance, you would perfer the element of surprise and least resistance....

7b) yes, true.... but as you can see from the videos of activists armed with metal bars, they were waiting to be boarded..... now I have never been on a ship where passengers walk around with metal bars.... and generally most ships to not have stacks of metal bars laying around for passengers to get hold of freely.... and besides ship radio on a closed circuit, the captain could tell the passengers, that they are being boarded, please remain below decks and offer no resistance......

8) we know there was nothing on board now..... we did not at the time..... its the same as a police raid on a suspected drug house, they do not know that there is no drugs in the house, until they raid it..... 3

9) yes I agree.... but the truth is pretty much out there anyway.... its people that do not want to accept the truth, unless its their version....
israel may be hiding the fact that it was not just a ship boarding, they were also after suspected hamas sympathisers and terrorists....
that is conjecture but not at all, impossible....

and yes I agree, the mission was to deliever aid..... so why try and do it in a manner that was known to cause issues, when the israelis indicated they were more than happy for the aid to be delivered from ashdod port.....

there is another element tho.... if hamas will fire on a aid convoy by trucks.... is it at all possible that israel was trying to stop hamas having a target by ship....
in the scenerio that israel allowed the ships thru, and they were fired upon and people killed, quess who would get the blame for it.....
yes,.... israel for allowing ships into a known conflict zone.....

either way israel would be in the shit.... but they chose the lesser of two evils.....as of 700 passengers on board if the ship landed in gaza, how many would get back on board and sail out ???
600??? 500 ???? and how many would stay in gaza...?????

at the end of the day.... there is a lot more to the situation than people want to accept or see...... and either way, israel is the prime target for people to blame for everything.....

[DuckiesDarling]

A good post Tenni....not a lot more to add there....a good post.

DD.....I fear it is you that is caught in a rut, because you seem prepared to defend Israel, no matter what......and I have a feeling that nothing would or will ever change that.....even if they end up being villified by the entire world....excluding the USA, of course.

Doctored videos are evil and vicious propaganda and it doesn't who produces that propaganda and about what situation. That video really was a work of art.......it would win the Turner prize if entered as a piece of art work........but not truth or reality......it didn't show that.....only the Israeli video editor's warped sense of reality.

The rest of your post....you're just bringing up the same stuff...over and over....and it's already been commented upon.

And you just keep spouting the same thing. You don't agree with pictures or videos therefore they are either doctored or propaganda. You keep slamming Israel, I keep defending. End game. There is no way you can condone the actions of people who put over 700 lives at risk not to mention the lives of the soldiers. But you keep safe in your little bed while you type things you know nothing about regarding military actions and maybe someday you will be able to actually thank the men and women who put their lives on the line so you can sit safe in your little bed.

[tenni]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

[DuckiesDarling]

interesting....footage that is supposed to contradict the Israeli version sure seems to say the Israelis were right.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/new-fo...i-account.html

around 3 minutes into the video you see the person told they can't film in a place, then you see a man in a blue shirt speaking in Arabic to a group. The word that jumps out is Jihad. You see them preparing wooden sticks and knives and holding chains, you see them as anything other than peaceful. So thanks for posting that piece of propanganda, perhaps they need to edit a bit more closely next time instead of proving to the world they set out to cause an international incident and didn't care how many lives were lost in the process.

In fact, visisble towards the beginning of the video is the same man seen in other footage claiming he didn't get the chance to be a martyr last time, he hopes he can now.

[Long Duck Dong]

Perhaps we are tending to argue our positions as to which side we see having fault? We probably are not going to change our basic positions too much. I'm not sure that some can even move to blaming both sides for their mistakes?

I am a professional video artist. Canticle, I would not call the second video art at all but it is a professionally created video rather than raw footage. As far as the authenticity of the videos is concerned, I can see the difference and I think several see a difference. I'm not a forensic video editor but it is clear that one is raw footage and probably not doctored or edited to create a bias one way or the other. The only bias is what the person decided to tape. The second video is clearly commercially produced. The woman narrator would have received a good fee and she seems to be reading a script. The narration is too clean not to be a professional. The clips are edited and as I wrote before some are clearly shot from an Israeli helicopter as no other report mentions any media in a helicopter. Others may be captured footage taken from the activists or possibly an Israeli videographer that landed on the ship as well (but unlikely).

Those that chose to believe that the second video with the supposed words from the crew condemning the ship, well, I don't know. It is possible that a ship captain or crew might have made that statement over the ship radio but I don't know. That would mean that the cargo ship's crew opposed Israel's blockade. It is possible. It is also possible that the crew didn't care one way or the other. In other words it is speculative while the bodies being carried down the steps on the first video are not. The reaction of the people is natural. They are not actors. They are living in a terrified moment at times and a boring moment at other times. The gun shots and hovering helicopter are not speculative. We do not see the shooters.

interesting.....

ok I agree with you on the second video.... on a number of areas

1) the communications between a israeli naval officer and a turkish ships captain, the accents stand out to me....and the mannerism does too... they are too similiar...... but there is a discernable change in the voice of the turkish ship captains voice, as if there was two people, not one....
now I am assuming it was the turkish ship captain there..... I have no proof

2) unless its direct ship to ship communications ( phone not radio ) the connection is too clear, too lil static and in order to match the israeli side of things, it would have had to have been done BEFORE the israelis blocked the communications, just before they boarded the ship.....

3) the commentary is voice over, not a as it happens commentary.....( I am refering to the female commentary )

hep and pasas missing vids

this is for hep and pasa, watch the second vid and you will see the displaying of the laminated pics about 5 pages of them....

but you will notice things like the firing of slingshots at the helicopters.....
at 30 meters I can kill a rabbit with a ball bearing fired from a slingshot.... if I can kill a rabbit, I can kill a human too
that disputes the no weapons on board theory right there..... as we are seeing it in footage from a person on board the ship... not a israeli news feed....

btw, the *blood * on the side of the ship.. is paint and you can clearly hear paint balls AND rubber bullets hitting the ship, cos there is no riccochet of metal bullets.....I know this as I used to do paint ball war games and I have used rubber bullet round war games in the army..... so I know the sounds well.....
its not blood cos the color is wrong... there was nobody shoot before the boarding, and there is too much colour and no body....
but you can see the soldiers start to rappel down to the ship after people point out the *blood *....

believe me, I have never managed to bleed from a cut finger 2 minutes before I have cut my finger....


and again, I am not doing this to support israel, or to be pro israel, its simply cos what is being said, do not match what we are seeing.....
no weapons on board, yet slingshots are weapons.... unless you are looking for bombs and guns.... and ruling out a slingshot as a weapon.....

I still have found no proof that the protestors were armed with guns that were thrown over the side of the ship..... but thats not surprising.... the video taken where the boarding took board is very selective, considering the number of cameras and reporters on board....
and we all know the number of cam ops that have put themselves in harms way in a war zone for the exclusive story....... so why so lil footage, and why so much below decks ????

btw the footage we see from on board the ships proves that the israelis did not confiscate all media from the ship as first claimed by the people on the ship.... unless * gasp * its all faked and propaganda..... how say ye, ranticle ?

[tenni]

DD
Re: post 562

I forgot that there was an edited down version. I wonder if you are referring to the unedited first video? I can see how it may be interpreted as the man waving his hands telling the the videomaker not to film or he may have been saying that a passenger is not allowed on that part of the cargo ship. I don't understand Arabic. Do you?

As to the man who is singing, I can see how that may also be interpreted as him saying jihad but it sounded more like a version of "jihadi". Remember the real meaning for jihad is not what we in the West have come to put on the word. The paper in his hand is being used as a reference as if it was a song and probably a protest type. I do not speak Arabic. Some in the crowd joined in on the chorus while others just looked at him holding the mike. The chorus didn't have the word that you referred to. It seemed like "beladi, beladi". Yes,the man was being a cheer leader encouraging others to do what they were there for. So did Martin Luther King.

Again, it is your interpretation. To you it is propaganda. If it is, it is very unprofessional and poorly done. Who do you think that the video was intended for?

Did this man claim that he didn't get a chance to be a martyr before or after he was singing? I can not find the footage. What time code is it at or was it a different video?

[Long Duck Dong]

DD
Re: post 562


Did this man claim that he didn't get a chance to be a martyr before or after he was singing? I can not find the footage. What time code is it at or was it a different video?

its in this one tenni... the guy states it in english, .....not arabic

martyr vid

[mariersa]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious!

[Pasadenacpl2]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

No time to go back alot of pages, but what's always interested me on some of these threads is: All of the Veterans regardless of Country. can we at least get some sort of your experience ? Actual Combat? and in which Crisis (post WWII) certainly an entire host of opportunities were afforded. Some have admitted in other Threads that they were "War Heroes" and in subsequent posts they admit to being nothing than clerks! So, come on, hunter killers tell the truth!!! Who has actually "been" in Combat" not training, everyone has to train, reality?????!!! Just a thought , that has bothered me. In my thoughts, unless you've actually been in that situation, eye to eye, shut the F**k up about your "War Experience" "In Flanders Field" Not intending to hijack the thread, just curious!

due to confidentiality rules with the nz army, I can not reveal some information so I tell people that I did not see combat, its just easier that way.....
but yes I can say that the experience learnt, has been put to use in real situations ( army and civilian situations ) and in some cases, lives have been lost.... thats all I will say about that

the following is what i refer to in the thread as experience in fields

trained and certified communications tech ( radio and communication, civilian and armed forces, RT / CB, closed and open, short and long range comm, land and ship based.... I am referring to field work, not being stuck behind a desk doing paperwork )

training and expertise in weaponry, armaments and ammunition, weapon smithing etc ( army and civilian training, including rifle and pistol club, deer hunters lodge )

training and expertise in field medics, certified first aid, experience as volunteer fire fighter and bush fire fighting, also certified civil defence ( nz disaster relief )

parachuting, hand gliding, abseiling, rappelling, mountaineering ( army and civilian / search and rescue )

civilian seafaring / maritime / ship work

map work / topographical work / survey work, strategy and logistics analysis ( army and civilian work )

hand to hand, close combat and short distance, weapons ( army and civilian... think martial arts, I hold a 3rd dan black belt and I used to instruct self defence )

I grew up with a father that is ex airforce ( served in malay, singapore ) and a step father that is ex nam, and I had their field manuals and experiences, military field knowledge and bush survival beaten into me..... by the time I started in scouts, I could plan, manage and deal with any issues with a week long scout camp, including emergency evac.... I was 13..

[AdamKadmon43]

I spent a year in the Gulf War (90-91). I have been under fire, and I have stood a post. I have seen many an after action vid. More I will not recount here. My father is a Vietnam vet and my brother is currently serving his third tour in Iraq. We speak often, and as we are a military family, that is what we speak of. Two of my best friends just got out. One was a scout (ghillie suites and all) and the other a sniper. They both have found the video showing the melee to be incredibly interesting. My entire life has been connected to the military in one way or another.

BTW, one of my hobbies of nearly 2 decades has been renaissance combat. I've fought both heavy and boffers as well as with the more flexible fencing foil. Give me a metal pipe. I guarantee that it will be a deadly weapon. Hell, I'll wager that you can stand facing me, and I facing you, and without moving my feet I can hit you in the back of the head with the pipe and their won't be much you can do to prevent it. Give me two of them (florentine) and the hospital is your assured destination if not the morgue. Anyone who thinks that what the 'peaceful' members of that ship's company wielded wasn't lethal weapons has no clue of what they speak.

Interesting side story. The night I was granted knighthood in our organization I was dropped off at our flat after the resulting party. My wife wasn't home yet from work, and I had forgotten my keys. I was waiting outside when a pair of guys who were high decided they wanted to pick a fight with the "fag" (their word) dressed in a tunic. I tried to pacify them, telling them I didn't want any trouble, when one of them clocked me. I went down to my knee for a moment. Then, using my boffer and my knight's chain, I rendered both unconscious to be picked up by the police.

Guess picking a fight with a "fag" wasn't a bril move for them.

Pasa

WOW... you are really one bad-ass dude, aren't you...

[Hephaestion]

2) yes they did... I agree.... but they were stopped before they reached the blockage and within a more suitable range of ashdod harbour....
but the reason for stopping them in international waters, would have been to stop them sailing thru the blockade as that can be ruled as a intentional act of war......and change the status from aid ship, to enemy sea going vessel.....

3+4) bullets leave holes, paintballs generally don't...... plus bullets striking a boat and deflecting, would give off riccochet sounds..... something that paint ballls don't...and something very clear to the human ear..... its not a sound you can dismiss or mistake easily

5) yes again I agree...... but why are there only reports of turkish activists attacking armed soldiers, turkish activists being shoot and killed and no hostile resistance from other nationalities....
based around the videos and going on the clothing, it would appear that the people of other nationalities ran the other way, below decks.....including the reporters..... maybe cos that would match the reactions of not hostile protestors and activists, they were not looking for trouble, they were on a aid mission

6) indeed, I agree, the point of least resistance or the point where no other option is left.....

7a) yes again, I agree..... but the cover of darkness is often used for a rush raid, or the early hours of the morning, most law enforcement groups perfer early morning raids, most combat missions work at night..... cos there is better cover, and if you believe that you are facing hostile resistance, you would perfer the element of surprise and least resistance....

7b) yes, true.... but as you can see from the videos of activists armed with metal bars, they were waiting to be boarded..... now I have never been on a ship where passengers walk around with metal bars.... and generally most ships to not have stacks of metal bars laying around for passengers to get hold of freely.... and besides ship radio on a closed circuit, the captain could tell the passengers, that they are being boarded, please remain below decks and offer no resistance......

8) we know there was nothing on board now..... we did not at the time..... its the same as a police raid on a suspected drug house, they do not know that there is no drugs in the house, until they raid it..... 3

9) yes I agree.... but the truth is pretty much out there anyway.... its people that do not want to accept the truth, unless its their version....
israel may be hiding the fact that it was not just a ship boarding, they were also after suspected hamas sympathisers and terrorists....
that is conjecture but not at all, impossible....

and yes I agree, the mission was to deliever aid..... so why try and do it in a manner that was known to cause issues, when the israelis indicated they were more than happy for the aid to be delivered from ashdod port.....

there is another element tho.... if hamas will fire on a aid convoy by trucks.... is it at all possible that israel was trying to stop hamas having a target by ship....
in the scenerio that israel allowed the ships thru, and they were fired upon and people killed, quess who would get the blame for it.....
yes,.... israel for allowing ships into a known conflict zone.....

either way israel would be in the shit.... but they chose the lesser of two evils.....as of 700 passengers on board if the ship landed in gaza, how many would get back on board and sail out ???
600??? 500 ???? and how many would stay in gaza...?????

at the end of the day.... there is a lot more to the situation than people want to accept or see...... and either way, israel is the prime target for people to blame for everything.....

LDD - you are a man of undying faith. Under a different set of circumstances, I suspect that you would do great justice to the crescent moon.

Warm regards

H.

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly hep, I am torn between my military background, my views as a person that wants to see the aid get to the people that need it..... and a overwhelming curiosity to know the full facts of what happened, but not to lay the blame with any body or any side.... but to just find out what happened....

either way, I still stand on my stance, there is blame on both sides, not one
so I hold both sides responsible for what happened, not one side..... and I stand by the stance that it could have been avoided.....if the ships has just sailed to ashdod port, regardless of if people believe that would have been the right thing to do or not.... the simple fact is, it would have saved lives