Gaza Aid Convoy

[tenni]

Fran, my point is they were put there. They are home. And everyone saying they should be moved elsewhere is nothing more than just whistling in the wind. Defense of home is second nature to anyone, more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives.

Twyla
You do seem to enjoy repeating the propoganda myths that you have been brainwashed with...lol

Russia lost more lives than the Jews during WW2 but lets not let this thread become a reliving of WW2. 5.7 million (78&#37 of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. The exact number of Russians who died during WW2 is speculative still but I've heard reports of as many as 26 million Russians died during WW2. Both groups suffered horribly and the propoganda about how much the jews suffered is sometimes over dominating. It was horrific and that can not be denied but the Jews were not the only group in history to suffer such great tragedies. If you are ever in Russia, you may want to take note of how many war memorials that there are to those who died during WW2. Brides still go and place their wedding boquet at the foot of these memorials as part of their wedding celebrations. We rarely hear about the great losses that the Russians suffered.

Reality today is that there are two groups both claiming the same territory as their home and neither seems to want to share the land in peace. Both have made errors and both have been victims. If the USA removed its financial support, would Israel disappear? I don't know but the US is certainly in part responsible for the present situation. It can not be said that the US has not tried to "fix it" at the same time that they pay such huge amounts of money more to Israel than Palestinians. This happens both at the state sponsored aid level and individual US people aid level. Are the funds balanced to both groups? Clearly not. The US citizens and Canadian citizens were permitted to give huge amounts of money to the IRA as well. That only prolonged the suffering in Ireland. The US and Canada governments want the Palestinians in Gaza to suffer because they dared to democratically elect Hamas as their government. Remember that this was done democratically. Hamas is wrong to continue sending rockets into to Israel. Can we really blame them though? REallY?...lol What would you do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza?

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla
You do seem to enjoy repeating the propoganda myths that you have been brainwashed with...lol

Russia lost more lives than the Jews during WW2 but lets not let this thread become a reliving of WW2. 5.7 million (78&#37 of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. The exact number of Russians who died during WW2 is speculative still but I've heard reports of as many as 26 million Russians died during WW2. Both groups suffered horribly and the propoganda about how much the jews suffered is sometimes over dominating. It was horrific and that can not be denied but the Jews were not the only group in history to suffer such great tragedies. If you are ever in Russia, you may want to take note of how many war memorials that there are to those who died during WW2. Brides still go and place their wedding boquet at the foot of these memorials as part of their wedding celebrations. We rarely hear about the great losses that the Russians suffered.

Reality today is that there are two groups both claiming the same territory as their home and neither seems to want to share the land in peace. Both have made errors and both have been victims. If the USA removed its financial support, would Israel disappear? I don't know but the US is certainly in part responsible for the present situation. It can not be said that the US has not tried to "fix it" at the same time that they pay such huge amounts of money more to Israel than Palestinians. This happens both at the state sponsored aid level and individual US people aid level. Are the funds balanced to both groups? Clearly not. The US citizens and Canadian citizens were permitted to give huge amounts of money to the IRA as well. That only prolonged the suffering in Ireland. The US and Canada governments want the Palestinians in Gaza to suffer because they dared to democratically elect Hamas as their government. Remember that this was done democratically. Hamas is wrong to continue sending rockets into to Israel. Can we really blame them though? REallY?...lol What would you do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza?

Tenni, please don't twist what I said, I said that the Jewish nation lost more lives at one time than anyone else due to a country trying to exterminate them. This wasn't war time casualties, this was gas ovens and digging your own graves before a squadron of soldiers riddled your body with bullets. And speculative totals don't prove anything, Tenni. Now as to your point that Hamas was elected democratically, sure they were and so was Hitler. I'm sure the majority of the citizens of Palestine cheerfully voted for them and then found to their horror that they weren't interested in anything resembling peace they want the Jewish nation exterminated. Not removed from "their land" exterminated. Yes, I blame Gaza for sending rockets into Israel when they know that Israel will only prolong the blockade. I blame Gaza for not standing up and telling Hamas "No More" and "Let Gilad Shalit free" so that they may finally get the relief that people are trying to get through to them. And what proof does anyone have that anything that makes it into Gaza goes to the people who need it anyway? Especially with Hamas stating they will accept no aid that has been vetted by Israel. Because they know there will be no secret messages, no gun parts, no supplies to make ammunition and bombs and damned sure no more rockets. So yes I blame the people of Gaza for not taking a stand, if Hamas was democratically elected they can be democratically overthrown by the people who want peace. So spare the brainwashed US crap, I have never allowed anyone else to do my thinking for me.

Oh and lovely quote about the Democratically elected Hamas...

In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family.

Read all about it yourself

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

And their covenant

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Yes Hamas is such a lovely group of people, bound and determined to remove an entire race from this world simply because they believe that exterminating them is the will of Allah.

[tenni]

Twyla
Your exact words "more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives." do not refer to one time.

I see now that you are referring to the entire history of humanity. We do not have the figures and so we can only accept your premise in all fairness yes the Jews have suffered...and Jewish comedians love to repeat that over and over again.

Your points about democratically elected and justification to nullify the importance of that is selective rationalization. Ok, for you it is not important that Hammas is the democratically elected government of Gaza because "you" do like them. You blame Gaza citizens for not standing up against Hamas. The fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government should inform you that they think that Hamas is the best group to stand up for Gaza's citizens. You get to vote for your president and democratically elect whom ever you want. Uh..lots of us didn't like your last president but there he was doing what he wanted to do. Invading and killing hundreds of thousands and all. Why you don't have him in jail and still argue about Gaza's citizens is too strange. I therefore should hold you responsible for illegally invading Iraq and blame you for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. I should blame you and all US citizens for not arresting your last president. Gaza citizens are bad.... but not US citizens?... but back to Gaza. I hold Hamas responsible for any Jews that the rockets kill. Do you hold Israel responsible and blame Israel for killing Turks and one of your own citizens? I suspect that you do not hold Israel responsible and support Israel in killing people in international waters. Let's agree to not agree.

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla
Your exact words "more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives." do not refer to one time.

I see now that you are referring to the entire history of humanity. We do not have the figures and so we can only accept your premise in all fairness yes the Jews have suffered...and Jewish comedians love to repeat that over and over again.

Your points about democratically elected and justification to nullify the importance of that is selective rationalization. Ok, for you it is not important that Hammas is the democratically elected government of Gaza because "you" do like them. You blame Gaza citizens for not standing up against Hamas. The fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government should inform you that they think that Hamas is the best group to stand up for Gaza's citizens. You get to vote for your president and democratically elect whom ever you want. Uh..lots of us didn't like your last president but there he was doing what he wanted to do. Invading and killing hundreds of thousands and all. Why you don't have him in jail and still argue about Gaza's citizens is too strange. I therefore should hold you responsible for illegally invading Iraq and blame you for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. I should blame you and all US citizens for not arresting your last president. Gaza citizens are bad.... but not US citizens?... but back to Gaza. I hold Hamas responsible for any Jews that the rockets kill. Do you hold Israel responsible and blame Israel for killing Turks and one of your own citizens? I suspect that you do not hold Israel responsible and support Israel in killing people in international waters. Let's agree to not agree.

Go ahead and blame me, Tenni. That's your opinion, but your remarks are totally uncalled for. Israel acts in self defense, Gaza fires rockets cause it hates Jews. Yeah so blame me for the Iraqi war and blame me for global warming and blame me for Al Queda flying planes into a civilian area for no other reason than they didn't like America.

[tenni]

Twyla re post 305

A little drama madam with your whine?

Th remarks were called for to show a comparison of your logic falacy. I don't blame you as I hope that you opposed (blamed ) your government's evil deeds at some point in time during the reign of King George ( or was it really King Dick?).

As to who is defending themselves is where the questions become more difficult to assess. Are Israel's actions self defence or acts of aggression? Are the Palestinians' defending themselves or being the aggressors?

This post may be followed by a protest by Pasa about picking on us....anti-American...yada..yada...

[TwylaTwobits]

A little drama madam with your whine?

It was an comparison of your logic. I don't blame you as I hope that you opposed your government's evil deeds at some point at some time during the reign of King George ( or was it really King Dick?).

As to who is defending themselves is where the questions become more difficult to assess. Are Israel's actions self defence or acts of aggression? Are the Palestinians' defending themselves or being an aggressor?

Actually, I was sitting here wondering why you were trying to bait me into saying something bannable? You know full well that I opposed Bush and a lot of other Americans did as well. You know full well that he was close to being called to answer in an impeachment trial. You know full well that America is at heart a defender of freedom. Yes, I support Israel. I have made no secret of that. But I also remember there are still some innocent people in Gaza. I posted the Hamas charter claiming they want to wipe out the Jews. Hamas is a terrorist organization posing as a unified goverment. You would care if it was Canadians they wanted to wipe out cause they couldn't stand someone saying "Eh?". Why don't you care that want to wipe out an entire religious nation? And something else and you can't deny it, if Canada was ever attacked by something like Hamas, America would have your back in a heartbeat with all the firepower we could bring to bear.

[tenni]

You need to give me 5 to 10 minutes as I frequently alter edit my post... This is not about (the) "US". The beginning of any US posters reference to their country on a thread not about their country...I glaze over...sorry what did you say about the US as a saviour...never mind......

[TwylaTwobits]

You need to give me 5 to 10 minutes as I frequently alter edit my post... This is not about (the) "US". The beginning of any US posters reference to their country on a thread not about their country...I glaze over...sorry what did you say about the US as a saviour...never mind......

Funny, can't deny what I said so you make sarcasm about it. There is no denying that Hamas wants the complete annihilation of the Jews and as for them wanting peace?? Read the charter. Never mind that might be too much work so I'll quote that part..

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni was right about one thing: The people of "Palestine" elected Hamas as their government.

Which means they support terrorism. They support suicide bombings. They support bombs in Discos, and nurseries, and playgrounds, and buses, and apartment buildings. They support RPGs being fired, not at military targets, but at no particular target at all. They support the Hamas position that no solution can be acceptable as long as Israel exists.

And one wonders why I cannot give equal weight to both sides? There is no moral equivalency. Israel is a democracy who tries, and sometimes fails, to live under the democratic system. Palestine is a terrorist "state" who refuses, by it's very charter, to allow their neighbor to exist.

Palestine could have Gaza and the Western Bank fixed. Today. It could have everything it wants. All it has to do is commit itself to leaving Israel alone. Lay down their arms, quit allowing Syria and Iran to whisper in their ear while placing AKs and RPGs in the hands of their children.

No. This is not a situation of two sides who are equally abused and abusers. There is no moral equivalency. They, their nation, are terrorists who elected terrorists to commit acts of terrorism. The Hamas are butchers who even butcher their own countrymen. And they were elected.

No. Moral. Equivalence.

Pasa

[tenni]

Pasa
re:your post 310
If you read my post 304, you will not read that I referred to the Palestinians electing Hamas. If you do find it somewhere else I didn't mean all Palestinians as they are not all in Gaza. I referred to "the people of Gaza electing Hamas".

I think that it is a perspective (that you seem to support) to believe that the people of Gaza support terrorism etc. I don't think that the people of Gaza would explain it that way though. I have no idea how they might contextualize what you see as terrorism, which state is terrorist state etc. Both democratically elected their governments as far as I can determine. Some people in your country and Israel don't like the results of the election.

I'm not sure demanding that Gaza or Palestine put down their arms for peace. Why doesn't your country put down its arms for peace? Few countries are willing to totally disarm. Your words indicate that you are not keen on recognizing Palestine or Gaza as sovereign states. They see themselves as sovereign or demand their sovereignty.

I have never discussed this with a Palestinian or a middle east person from other than Israel. Have you Pasa?....Twyla? I try to keep my mind a little open to both voices.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't need to. I read their press releases. What part of "there can be no peace as long as Israel exists" do you not get, Tenni? That's THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS. That's in their charter. That's not just idle chit chat.

Their financial backers, Iran, says the same thing on a nearly daily basis. Ahmadinijad (sp) states that Israel needs to be wiped off the planet, that the Holocaust never happened, and on, and on, and on.

I don't give a damn, frankly, how the Palestinians would contextualize terrorism. You blow up a nursery, you're a terrorist. And, after what they have done at least in my lifetime, I don't really give a damn if they don't want to lay down their arms. If they want aid, if they want to rebuild, if they want peace, that's what they'll do. Choices have consequences. Choose to be terrorists? You get a siege. Choose to embrace peace, you get all sorts of goodies from the world.

But, they elected terror to lead them. I don't think they want aid, or to rebuild, or peace. I think they want Jihad. I think they want to fight until the last man. And I think, if that's what they want, Israel is more than willing to allow them to.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

LDD - I know that it is difficult to accept but the evidence consistently indicates that the operation was a disaster from the word go. From operating in an area where there was no legal juristiction, judged excessive use of force, loss of general world sympathy to compromising friends and allies.

It was a cock-up where people lost lives and health. The Israelis should really be looking towards a damage limitation exercise where they give free reign to an independant e.g. UN enquiry. They would come out better if they accepted the foregone conclusion that they were in the wrong and changed their stance overtly.

Other countries have done this in the past and salvaged their reputations. As things stand even their own peple are begining to hang their heads in shame. When a country reaches that stage the future looks grim for them.

.

[Hephaestion]

I don't need to. I read their press releases. What part of "there can be no peace as long as Israel exists" do you not get, Tenni? That's THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS. That's in their charter. That's not just idle chit chat.

Their financial backers, Iran, says the same thing on a nearly daily basis. Ahmadinijad (sp) states that Israel needs to be wiped off the planet, that the Holocaust never happened, and on, and on, and on.

I don't give a damn, frankly, how the Palestinians would contextualize terrorism. You blow up a nursery, you're a terrorist. And, after what they have done at least in my lifetime, I don't really give a damn if they don't want to lay down their arms. If they want aid, if they want to rebuild, if they want peace, that's what they'll do. Choices have consequences. Choose to be terrorists? You get a siege. Choose to embrace peace, you get all sorts of goodies from the world.

But, they elected terror to lead them. I don't think they want aid, or to rebuild, or peace. I think they want Jihad. I think they want to fight until the last man. And I think, if that's what they want, Israel is more than willing to allow them to.

Pasa

Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Pasadenacpl2]

There are varying degrees of wrong, Heph. The two aren't even in the same category of wrong, let alone being balanced.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There are varying degrees of wrong, Heph. The two aren't even in the same category of wrong, let alone being balanced.

Pasa

You are right - the convoy faux pas is infinitely worse because the targets were precise visible and sitting ducks


.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD - I know that it is difficult to accept but the evidence consistently indicates that the operation was a disaster from the word go. From operating in an area where there was no legal juristiction, judged excessive use of force, loss of general world sympathy to compromising friends and allies.

It was a cock-up where people lost lives and health. The Israelis should really be looking towards a damage limitation exercise where they give free reign to an independant e.g. UN enquiry. They would come out better if they accepted the foregone conclusion that they were in the wrong and changed their stance overtly.

Other countries have done this in the past and salvaged their reputations. As things stand even their own people are beginning to hang their heads in shame. When a country reaches that stage the future looks grim for them.

.

unfortunately, israel was acting according to the international naval / marine rules, regarding the blockade and were within their rights.....
international maritime law

now I am not defending Israel, their actions or laying the blame on the activists..... I do not think in terms of country or civil / diplomatic rights like most of my fellow posters.....

I am viewing it from the point of one country engaging ships that refused to stop or way lay to a nearby port for the confirmation of non lethal cargo

now the evidence indicates that the ships failed to stop, refused to stop and made every attempt NOT to stop
if it was on land and police officers were dealing with a car, then they were believe that there was good reason to suspect that the occupants may have criminal reason for failing to stop.....
I use the same rule of thumb in regards to the ships.....

the boarding of the ship went wrong the moment that lethal force was applied, regardless of who started it.....
I apply the rule of home self defence there..... a invader in your home may be armed and dangerous, but it doesn't turn to shit, until lethal force is used by the home owner or the invader.....

in this case, lethal force was used against the commandos by *peaceful * protestors..... its a contradiction in terms... it would be like darkeyes ( a pacifist ) training in the SAS as a deep ops commando.....

the commandos were not there to start a firefight, they were there to bring the ships into port, as the activists refused to.....hence they were not fully equipped with full lethal armament..... as they believed they were facing a peaceful not aggressive ship load of passengers.....


now here is where I am confused....

why has pics being edited, not by israel but by reuters
edited pics

here are 4 videos that show clearly, it was a night time attack.... and that the commandos were attacked 4 videos

this is a video from a IDF boat Boat video

all statements and opinions aside.... you can see peaceful protesters.... engaging in violence and using lethal force...... nobody can tell me any different on that count, as I am seeing the videos, not reading what people may say in news sites......
now I have heard the stories about the commandos using lethal force.... but I have never heard of commandos inflicting injuries on themselves deliberately or beating themselves with iron bars etc.....

ok, like I said, I am not defending israel or accusing the activists, I am treating this the same as I would, a issue between two NZ army platoons,.... I would want answers, not bullshit.... cos I would have heads rolling on the carpet from both sides... and as twyla can tell you, I take no sides, I have even had her ass busted a couple of times in a online game and she is my real life partner, and my friends in the game learnt very quickly that friend or foe.... I seek out the truth but I will not take sides and I perfer to hear, see and understand all points of view

[Pasadenacpl2]

You are right - the convoy faux pas is infinitely worse because the targets were precise visible and sitting ducks


.

Bullshit. They were told not to try to break the blockade. They were warned. They ignored the warning. Their entire mission was to break the blockade. Sorry, they were only sitting ducks because they placed themselves there.

And this is not infinitely worse than blowing up a bus full of passengers, or a thousand other atrocities the Palestinians have committed in their Jihad.

Pasa

[richarddennis]

Crusaders were OK eh...typical

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sense? You make none?

Pasa

[tenni]

"Their entire mission was to break the blockade."

One thing that I am a bit confused about is who has approved this blockade other than Israel? What countries have publicly supported Israel's right to block access to Gaza's ports for humanitarian aid as defined by the UN? I do not believe that the UN has approved this blockade.

Many countries have shown disapproval for the Israel's actions and yet some posters on here claim that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza's waters.

[Pasadenacpl2]

You aren't confused. You know damn well why the blockade was there. And you know damn well that you don't have to have approval of your actions to do something as a sovereign nation. That's the point of being sovereign, Tenni.

Now, there are consequences if you piss off your neighbors, to be sure. For instance, when you continually fire rockets into your neighbor's school yards and shopping centers, you get your neighbor blocking your access to imports.

When Gaza stops shooting at Israel, the blockade will cease. As long as they continue to fire at Israel (no, it really doesn't matter if you think it's justified), they will be under siege. That's the truth. Your, and my, opinion of that truth doesn't matter terribly much. The truth is, Gaza, and the rest of palestine can end this. They choose not to. And they suffer the consequences of that choice. Unfortunately, their sons and daughters also suffer the consequences. But, their parents and leaders made that choice on their behalf. Such is the way of things.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

There is no dispute Pasa.

Israel was entirely in the wrong whatever the claimed rules are. The rest of the world says so and this includes the USA albeit quietly. Just look at the collateral damage, the greatest of which is damaging the west's relationship with Turkey.

Israel needs to apologise for its wrong doing throughout the years and for the flotilla incident especially.

Perhaps you could put a duration on the time rewuired for no attacks needed for Israel to lift the blockade from its side. I month, 2 months, 1 year, a decade?

In the meanwhile will Israel stop stealing land and water? The Israelis need to understand that the world is losing patience with them. The blockade is being circumvented as we write.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Still not worse than the terrorism committed by the palestinians. Not even close.

And, Israel didn't steal the land. Palestine lost it due to war. If you go to war, and get your ass kicked you risk losing your land, and your wealth.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

the blockade is to limit or stop lethal weapons going to gaza..... if israel is to stop the blockade, that can lead to a increase in the number of deaths

is that a acceptable result of ending the blockade ????? and if so, will the same people that believe israel is wrong, then accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of the lifting of the blocking ????? or will they pass the blame to the rocket users

under international marine law and UN law, israel has the right to limit or restrict vessels that may be transporting lethal weapons or items used to make lethal weapons.... they are not stopping aid to gaza, they are restricting the importation of dangerous material and allowing the transfer of aid related materials

now the same rules are used with trade embargos against countries that seek to import nuclear material and other weapons..... by the UNSC under international laws.... and blockades

if israel is wrong, then any other trade restriction or embargo is wrong, when applied, using the same rules..... .

again its a case of one set of rules applied differently to different countries....

hamas has stated that they intend to wipe the jews out.....
israel is trying to protect their own and others.....
and why are no other countries standing up and ready to accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of any importation of objects and chemicals that result in the creation of lethal weapons in gaza???

the objections by other countries, are a token gesture.... as they know full well, lifting the blockade, can and will result in more deaths.....and those other countries will sit there with their token objections over the deaths.....

but I can not help but draw a direct connection between gaza and israel...... and the usa and afghanistan......
by hell the usa went to war asap when the twin towers were attacked, citing a act of war and defending their home land, against major opposition from the UN

israel is trying to avoid the same thing while defending their home land..... and being judged as wrong....

[Hephaestion]

0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:

a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN

Seems like the 9/10 flotilla deaths may well go down as martyrs to a cause. Deaths of innocents have a habit of being preserved that way.

UN security council carried the USA proposal that trade sanctions should continue against Iran on the basis of 'continued nuclear research' - TURKEY along with Brazil objected to the sanctions (well done Israel).

.

[tenni]

Pasa my ol buddy debater
You know me so well as to when I'm confused and when I'm not?...lol
I know why the blockade is there. I never said that I didn't know. Perhaps you as a citizen of the US do not give sufficient credence to the UN. The UN has not sanctioned this blockade. If it had been determined to create a blockade the UN might have approved of it. I believe that I wrote earlier that the UN sanctioned the US and several other countries to create a blockade of Iraq during the Gulf war. No such actions this time. I know that the comment might be that Israel does not have the support due to the number if arab countries who would oppose it. Maybe that is true. Who has the right to blockade? Should the rest of us blockade the US for the crap that is spewing out of your Gulf oil wells? Should we blockade the US for creating an international financial crisis? Of course not. Should we blockade the US for invading Iraq? Maybe. Israel is permitted to have the blockade because the US is quietly supporting it..maybe? Still no formal approval by any country that I can recall. Hep is pointing out that the rest of the world is losing its patience with Israel.

Mind you now that I think about it..maybe the US may piss off the rest of us with the environmental disaster that it is creating. USA USA BLOCKADE...kid'n

Do we all know that Wedneday June 9th is raze PASA Day?...

You aren't confused. You know damn well why the blockade was there. And you know damn well that you don't have to have approval of your actions to do something as a sovereign nation. That's the point of being sovereign, Tenni.

Now, there are consequences if you piss off your neighbors, to be sure. For instance, when you continually fire rockets into your neighbor's school yards and shopping centers, you get your neighbor blocking your access to imports.

When Gaza stops shooting at Israel, the blockade will cease. As long as they continue to fire at Israel (no, it really doesn't matter if you think it's justified), they will be under siege. That's the truth. Your, and my, opinion of that truth doesn't matter terribly much. The truth is, Gaza, and the rest of palestine can end this. They choose not to. And they suffer the consequences of that choice. Unfortunately, their sons and daughters also suffer the consequences. But, their parents and leaders made that choice on their behalf. Such is the way of things.

Pasa

[Long Duck Dong]

0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:

a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN

Seems like the 9/10 flotilla deaths may well go down as martyrs to a cause. Deaths of innocents have a habit of being preserved that way.

UN security council carried the USA proposal that trade sanctions should continue against Iran on the basis of 'continued nuclear research' - TURKEY along with Brazil objected to the sanctions (well done Israel).

.

a) agreed
b) agreed, as long as its not aid or supplies that can be used to make weapons
c) agreed if both parties are investigated fully...... protestors and commandos...

honestly I think that what we will hear is the *best * political * findings of the events within the flotilla..... but I have never had much trust in any commissions or findings....
I learnt that in the army, there is the official truth, the unofficial truth and then there is what actually happened which only the people there, actually know and 9 of them are dead

[Hephaestion]

a) agreed
b) agreed, as long as its not aid or supplies that can be used to make weapons
c) agreed if both parties are investigated fully...... protestors and commandos...

honestly I think that what we will hear is the *best * political * findings of the events within the flotilla..... but I have never had much trust in any commissions or findings....
I learnt that in the army, there is the official truth, the unofficial truth and then there is what actually happened which only the people there, actually know and 9 of them are dead

It is possible to make a weapon out of anything given the right circumstances. So the proviso of comment in b is undermined. Even a pencil can be lethal AKA a sharp stick. There is a saying that it takes two to tango so perhaps one should establsih an embargo to disarm the Israelis as they are the ones who are doing the killing (For good measure let's include house building materials and water prospecting equipment to prevent stealing land and water).

The evidence is quite clear. The Israelis went in shooting. It was intended as a hard lesson tactic. Perhaps the intention was intimidation, the only problem being that it went wrong - head shot wrong - right between the eyes. 9 people dead but not a single Israeli, is evidence, despite one of them having been captured and taken to isolation - alive.

People should be given credit that they are able to discern the difference between a ships heavy calibre weapon for a claimed across the bow shot (shoud there also have been a splash?) and the mix of manual and machine guns that would have been fired at the ships and people. The Israelis were armed despite the one time claim that they weren't. The claimed lack of armed aggression on the boats other than the Mavi Marmara turned out to be a lie. Stun grenades and rubber bullets can maim and kill, as can paint guns.

There is only one truth. The rest are fabrications and distortions and these are plainly evident in this case. What a soldier is told to get a job done isn't necessariy the truth.

The Israelis will not accept an impartial investigation becaue they already know the outcome. That is because they already know the truth. They screwed up and killed people - innocent people on a simple humanitarian mission.

That is why they reallly ought to be confessing and asking for the world's mercy, and forgiveness from their allies. They have lost any moral high ground and are currently digging a deepening hole for themselves. Reminder that they need to win back the hearts and minds of the world and continually nurture its goodwill towards them.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

my main question is why did the ships not stop..... they knew that israel did not intend to stop the transfer of aid..... and what the hell were the protesters trying to prove with running the blockade.... was it just a humane mission.... or was it actually more
but as israel has stated, it was simply the failure to stop by the ships that led to the boarding... and the protestors had stated they had no intention of stopping.....
so again, I am not blaming either side, but saying that both sides need to answer for their own actions....


the unanswered question I have, that can not be answered, is why did the 9 people attack commandos.... its not something your average protestor does....and the 9 people that can answer it, are dead....

ok... across the bow shooting, its normally by a ship mounted weapon... and normally rapid fire.... unless you are using a ship mounted small cannon type weapon....
the sounds in the videos I have watched are small calibre fire and single shots...not consistently with a semi automatic or automatic weapon... but consistent with small arms fire, aka pistols....
if there was automatic weapons fire on the boats... you would be seeing a lot of holes in walls as machine guns are useless at close range, limited spread shooting.... pistols work better

allowing for the fact that stun grenades and paint guns were used, the israelis were expecting passive resistance..... not aggressive resistance... the pistols would have been a last resort....
but yes, stun grenades and rubber bullets can kill..... but the israelis were carrying paintball guns.... they do not use rubber bullets...so where did the rubber bullets come into it.... they are limited range bullets and if fired from a boat, the boat would have to be within 20 meters of the ship, close enuf to attempt a ship side boarding....

the official stories ( not story ) are not matching up.... and I am not talking about the israeli side of things.... I am talking about what the protestors are saying....

communications were blocked before the boarding, and I am allowing for a full band block ( signal by satelite and radio ).... yet I constantly hear about radio communications between the ships while a communications block was active ???? sorry... that doesn't ring true... on both sides..

the israelis supposedly confiscated all videos and recordings... yet I am seeing videos from on the ships.... by the protestors.... so it was either not confiscated, smuggled off the boat, transmitted ( again the signal block issue )

the israelis supposedly boarded each ship by copter.... so why are the protestors talking about lowering ladders for commandos to board some ships.. either they did not board each ship by copter or they did but with further support by boat



ok as for weapons... I am thinking weapons grade objects and chemicals .... bomb making etc....
as i posted earlier, there was a few ton of cement that can be used to make bombs.... why was plastercrete not transported instead.... it only requires water, not builders mix gravel... it can be cast in pre fab form better than concrete... its easier to work with, sets faster.. etc etc.....

at the end of the day, hephas.... there is a lot of BS in the media, the israels story and the protestors story.....and 9 dead people.....

[Pasadenacpl2]

Pasa my ol buddy debater
You know me so well as to when I'm confused and when I'm not?...lol
I know why the blockade is there. I never said that I didn't know. Perhaps you as a citizen of the US do not give sufficient credence to the UN. The UN has not sanctioned this blockade. If it had been determined to create a blockade the UN might have approved of it. I believe that I wrote earlier that the UN sanctioned the US and several other countries to create a blockade of Iraq during the Gulf war. No such actions this time. I know that the comment might be that Israel does not have the support due to the number if arab countries who would oppose it. Maybe that is true. Who has the right to blockade? Should the rest of us blockade the US for the crap that is spewing out of your Gulf oil wells? Should we blockade the US for creating an international financial crisis? Of course not. Should we blockade the US for invading Iraq? Maybe. Israel is permitted to have the blockade because the US is quietly supporting it..maybe? Still no formal approval by any country that I can recall. Hep is pointing out that the rest of the world is losing its patience with Israel.

Mind you now that I think about it..maybe the US may piss off the rest of us with the environmental disaster that it is creating. USA USA BLOCKADE...kid'n

Do we all know that Wedneday June 9th is raze PASA Day?...

I fully welcome any attempt to blockade the US. I also fully welcome any attempt to put the US into an isolationist position. I think you will find that other nations suffer for this far more than the US will.

No, I don't give much credence to the UN. It's a nice get together. But it is NOT a governing body. It does not hold power over nations. That was neither the purpose in the beginning, nor is it now. No one needs the UN's blessing to do anything. Sure, it makes it easier, occasionally, but it's not necessary.

To say that Israel's blockade is illegal because it isn't blessed by the UN is to not understand the scope, purpose, or power of the UN. It is also an indication of not understanding the concept of the word sovereign.

REPEAT: When Palestine stops accepting arms from Iran and Syria, and stops firing those arms into Israel, the blockade will stop. NEWS FLASH: When you try to break a blockade, and get caught, people will die. If you put yourself there on purpose, and you die, you essentially committed suicide and it's your own damn fault.

Pasa