Gaza Aid Convoy

[tenni]

Today, across Canada in cities such as Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and many other cities there were protest marches opposed to Israel's actions. In Toronto there was also a smaller group Jewish Defence League counter protesting. In Montreal one person stated to the reporter that there was going to be fund raiser for "Free Gaza Movement". There was also talk about sending a Canada-Quebec ship with humanitarian aid.

One person stated that this time it was not just Arabs who were protesting and against Israel.

[Mmonty]

The convoy was at sea by that time Duckie.. it wasnt said before they left.. they were told to turn back.. trust is a great thing.. the trouble with Israel is they have long since lost the trust of just about everyone...

The Blockade has been going on for years. EVERY BODY KNOWS about it. There were activists aboard that ship who intended to run through it.

If Israel doesn't inspect the ships , then arms are sent in. Israel has successfully been inspecting cargo and having the humanitarian aid sent in for a long time.
Is there a better way for them to protect themselves? Suggestions? Hamas is hell bent for their destruction. They have a right to defend themselves.
The US does the same thing in time of war, and when there are terrorist threats.

[Pasadenacpl2]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.

Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.

Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.

There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.

You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.

Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.

I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.

And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.

I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.

Pasa

[nakedheathen]

No wonder can never get laid off this site. Everyone is busy arguing.

[Canticle]

''First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.''

This is a silly thing to post. Are you trying to say. that no one who was driven from their homelands, no one at all, is alive today? Do people only live 62 years? There will be people, aged 60 and upwards, who lost the right to live in the places, inhabited by their families, for generations. This exile will also affect the children and grandchildren, of those who were turfed out of their homeland.

Are you trying to tell me that every single Muslim or Christian Palestinian was a nomad and as recently as 1948. You talk about 1948 as if it was hundreds of years ago. Who lived in the cities and the villages. This is rubbish.

''Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.''

Many of the Palestinians lived in refugee camps. Were they supposed to be grateful for that? Israel may have won the 6 day war...and it just happens to be June 6th...right now in the UK, but is does not mean that Israel had any right to hold on to any land. Your words are extremely Christian, Pasa.....not!!

''Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.''

You really detest them, don't you.....at least this is how it comes across. Just think of all the money poured into Israel by wealthy western countries and by wealthy Jews from across the world. I guess the Palestinians were just unfortunate, that they missed out on anything like this.

If there had been no artificial creation of the State of Israel, maybe people from the three main religions, of the area, would be living peacefully and working together and living together, as equals and not with the Palestinians treated like 3rd class citizens, or even untouchables.

The State of Israel is not going to go away now, but the politicians who allowed it's creation and the displacement of the Christian and Muslim Palestinian people, have a lot to answer for.

''There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.''

I don't know how old you are, Pasa, but over the years I can remember there being many different ''rounds'' of peace talks and treaties signed. Israel is no better at keeping it's word than are the others. Look at this way.....originally, they were all the same people and I guess that even the European jews, shipped in, to become European Israelis, in an Asian land, must still have some of the same shared genetic heritage. They have that survivor instinct and all those peoples share that.

''Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.''

Probably because they knew that they would not be able to trust the bully boy State of Israel and who can blame them.

''Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.''

Israel does not have the right. to want to control over a people. After all...they did not like it. They have no rights in that area...not one bit. Israel doesn't just say it will destroy it's enemies...it actually does and sometimes in the most secret manner. Got to love all that money coming in to keep them going. That must have helped a lot, over the years.

''You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.''

Bigots...yes and also racist and like any country which gets too swollen a head....they could be capable of anything. They choose to shoot children and peaceful activists. If the boat, where the killings took place, was the last one to be boarded, I am not surprised if people tried to arm themselves, knowing that they would be no match for the trigger happy soldiers.

''Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.''

There should never have been a separate Jewish State. It was born out of guilt. Justify removing a people from their homeland, so that European Jews and Jews from other parts of the world, could be brought in, to mass populate the fledgling state.

Perhaps, if you were a Christian Palestinian, you would be able to understand how those people feel and just why they have a deep hatred of Israel.

''I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.''

Of course you will......and for obvious reasons.

''And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.''

How can the people on board the aid ships, be anti-semitic? What are Arabs? You automatically think, that because people do not approve of Israel and her behaviour, that they are anti-semitic...anti-Jewish. How juvenile.

And the words you speak about hoping ships encounter the Israelis...are not terribly Christian.

''I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.''

I haven't seen any racist comments. I have seen disapproval of one particular nation and the way that nation's arrogance, makes it unpopular. I am not anti-semitic....but I am anti the state of Israel as she is, at this point in history. I don't believe in the cause of Zion......because I don't think that Jews are any more special than anyone else. I don't think that Israel has some God given right to the land it occupies. That view does not make me anti-semitic...nor anyone else.

You need to be careful who you call racist...especially when your own words are looked at.


origin.......from wikipedia......and there's more there.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites. It was proposed at first to refer to the languages related to Hebrew by Ludwig Schlözer, in Eichhorn's "Repertorium", vol. VIII (Leipzig, 1781), p. 161. Through Eichhorn the name then came into general usage (cf. his "Einleitung in das Alte Testament" (Leipzig, 1787), I, p. 45). In his "Gesch. der neuen Sprachenkunde", pt. I (Göttingen, 1807) it had already become a fixed technical term.[1]

The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible (Genesis 5.32, 6.10, 10.21), or more precisely from the Greek derivative of that name, namely Σημ (Sēm); the noun form referring to a person is Semite.

The term "anti-Semitic" (or "anti-Semite") overwhelmingly refers to Jews only. It was coined in 1879 by German journalist Wilhelm Marr in a pamphlet called, "The Victory of Germandom over Jewry". Using ideas of race and nationalism, Marr argued that Jews had become the first major power in the West. He accused them of being liberals, a people without roots who had Judaized Germans beyond salvation. In 1879 Marr founded the "League for Anti-Semitism". [2]

The concept of "Semitic" peoples is derived from Biblical accounts of the origins of the cultures known to the ancient Hebrews. Those closest to them in culture and language were generally deemed to be descended from their forefather Shem. Enemies were often said to be descendants of his cursed nephew, Canaan. In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc., all of whose languages are closely related; the language family containing them was therefore named Semitic by linguists. However, the Canaanites and Amorites also spoke a language belonging to this family, and are therefore also termed Semitic in linguistics, despite being described in Genesis as sons of Ham (See Sons of Noah). Shem is also described in Genesis as the father of Elam and Lud, although the Elamites and Lydians usually thought to descend from these spoke languages that were not Semitic.

The hypothetical Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical Semitic languages in the Middle East, is thought to have been originally from either the Arabian Peninsula (particularly around Yemen) or the adjacent Ethiopian highlands. But its region of origin is still much debated and uncertain with, for example, a recent bayesian analysis identifying an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 5,750 BP with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 2,800 BP.[3] The Semitic language family is also considered a component of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family of languages. Identification of the hypothetical proto-Semitic region of origin is therefore dependent on the larger geographic distributions of the other language families within Afroasiatic.

[Long Duck Dong]

Thats a fuckin awful thing 2 say Duckie... it makes u sound heartless an positively nasty.. thats hardly compromise is it?? It makes u sound every bit as nasty as the I believe Netanyahu and his bloody government are... now we know just where u stand... It seems u dont believe in people standing up for their rights at all...

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

[boca.openminded]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

What you have stated here is slightly ludicrous and I mean no personal insult, there. The people were already in the area and missiles have been fired at Israel for many years, just as Israel has fired missiles back, for a considerable amount of time, as well as launching invasions and attacks on other neighbours. Or have you forgotten what Israel did to Lebanon a couple of years back. I know I have not.

''The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.''

Of course, the Israeli authorities, would never do a similar thing, would they and they wouldn't bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, so that Israelis could go against agreements reached, about not building on Palestinian land. No, they wouldn't do that, would they?

'There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!" '

Agreed..........but you have to remember why Arab and non Arab Muslim countries, are still bitter about the creation....not evolution......but creation and by outside forces......of the State of Israel.

''The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.''

Who, are the Western powers, to tell any other country, that it should not and cannot have, nuclear weapons? Why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons?

What proof is their that Iraq intended to have nuclear weapons? Saddam Hussein was meant to be stockpiling, weapons of mass destruction! Gee....have they been found, yet? Iraq, as a country, has been pretty much screwed up now and will be that way for decades to come.

Just because Iran wants nuclear power, it doesn't mean that they wish to have nuclear weapons. It's gotta be proven.

And here is another thought. If any of the Islamic countries surrounding Israel, had nuclear weapons and decided to use them, to destroy Israel. they would also destroy the most holy places, held sacred by their religion.

The land and the different areas of the land, are totally sacred to Islam, as they are to Judaism and even Christianity. Do you think that they would risk the wrath of Allah, for destroying the ''holy'' land.

They would also kill thousands of Muslims. I'd be more affeared of Israel using her nuclear capabilities.

So we critics of Israel....ain't f*****g crazy.

''Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.''

Oh, Israel will not think that it is at fault, because it believes itself to be the chosen nation. And how do you know the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues. Do you have proof???

Iran fk'n publicly stated they want to REMOVE Israel from the map. What do you think they are going to use nuclear weapons for? Also, Iran does not allow the UN to to random checks of their nuclear facilities. All checkups must be on Iran's terms & schedule. Their is proof that Iran has moved their nukes from 1 area to another so when the UN checks area 1 they find nothing there.

Why is it ok for Israel to have nukes? Because its proven they are not using their nukes against other countries. If you think differently then Iran would have nuked years ago.

I can't believe you are siding with Iran. Its unbelievable. Hey, Im not in favor of what happened with the convey either but to be in favor of Iran is just wrong..

Do not bring up Hussain and weapons of mass destruction. We all know Bush Jr was doing this as a way to fight his fathers battle which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

by the way how does states / countries get to be states or countries? Its by war or money. Most of the US states were actually created by who paid the most money (example: The Louisiana Purchase)...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Canticle - you exist in a world of should haves and ifs. The state of Israel should never have existed. Well, it does. Deal with it. We wouldn't need a two state solution if Israel had never existed. Well, it does. Hi, welcome to the real world.

You are incorrect to say that winning a war doesn't give you the right to keep territory you conquer. That's the way war works. In fact, that's the way any nation works.

Borders, Language, Culture. When you are incapable or unwilling to defend these, you lose your nation. The Palestinians were incapable of winning their war. They were incapable of keeping their border secure. As a result, the borders moved. That's the way it works.

I don't care much for the Palestinian's no. Not due to race, but due to their continual resort to violence, and their declaration that they want to exterminate the Jews. Once they say that, I have no pity. If they want a peace, I'm all for it. If they want war, I'm all for allowing Israel to truly bring them war.

Until now, Israel has played nice. Imagine if they finally said "enough."

Pasa

[richarddennis]

It's time for USA to fly in food/medical supplies to Palestine, just like we did to Germany when Russia blockaded them.

Eventually Egypt will open their borders to Gaza and the Israeli control of all that enters/exits Palestine will end for good.

[Canticle]

Canticle - you exist in a world of should haves and ifs. The state of Israel should never have existed. Well, it does. Deal with it. We wouldn't need a two state solution if Israel had never existed. Well, it does. Hi, welcome to the real world.

You are incorrect to say that winning a war doesn't give you the right to keep territory you conquer. That's the way war works. In fact, that's the way any nation works.

Borders, Language, Culture. When you are incapable or unwilling to defend these, you lose your nation. The Palestinians were incapable of winning their war. They were incapable of keeping their border secure. As a result, the borders moved. That's the way it works.

I don't care much for the Palestinian's no. Not due to race, but due to their continual resort to violence, and their declaration that they want to exterminate the Jews. Once they say that, I have no pity. If they want a peace, I'm all for it. If they want war, I'm all for allowing Israel to truly bring them war.

Until now, Israel has played nice. Imagine if they finally said "enough."

Pasa

Bull!!!!

I live in the real world....where we seem to see a very different view of the world than you do over the other side of the pond. the world has been dealing with the existence of the State of Israel since it's creation in 1948.
It's caused nothing but problems, in the Middle East.

Not a pacifist Christian, are you. You know, Fran was right. You talk a loada twaddle.

[Canticle]

It's time for USA to fly in food/medical supplies to Palestine, just like we did to Germany when Russia blockaded them.

Eventually Egypt will open their borders to Gaza and the Israeli control of all that enters/exits Palestine will end for good.

What a good idea.....Egypt to open the border.....but would the Palestinians want anything, in the way of aid, from Israel's greatest supporter.....the USA? of course the USA is not the only country in the world, nor the most important, when it comes to handing out aid. I think the other countries of the world, would manage quite well, on their own.

[Canticle]

''Iran fk'n publicly stated they want to REMOVE Israel from the map. What do you think they are going to use nuclear weapons for? Also, Iran does not allow the UN to to random checks of their nuclear facilities. All checkups must be on Iran's terms & schedule. Their is proof that Iran has moved their nukes from 1 area to another so when the UN checks area 1 they find nothing there. ''

Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.

''Why is it ok for Israel to have nukes? Because its proven they are not using their nukes against other countries. If you think differently then Iran would have nuked years ago.''

That makes no sense at all. I like the logic...it's Ok for the Israelis to have nuclear weapons (not nukes...please), because they haven't used them against anyone. Well...apart from WWII, none of the other nuclear countries have. So that shoots that theory in the groin.

''I can't believe you are siding with Iran. Its unbelievable. Hey, Im not in favor of what happened with the convey either but to be in favor of Iran is just wrong..''

Did I say I was siding with Iran...did I? I don't think I did. Most certainly not. But if the debate...or discussion requires it....I'll argue in their favour....and I quite like arguing...it's the Yorkshire blood.

''Do not bring up Hussain and weapons of mass destruction. We all know Bush Jr was doing this as a way to fight his fathers battle which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.''

I'll bring up what I like, Sir. God, how I hate men, telling me what to do. I'll regurgitate every fact, idea, view, snippet of history, religious wrong doing...anything...if I see fit.

When it comes to young Dubya's invasion along with his allies...Gung Ho Blair (not a poodle....he'd run rings around Bush, anytime...Oxford educated barrister, don't you know), of an evil, yet still sovereign nation. I remember reading that Bush senior was reported to have told his son, that for the war to be succeeful, the allies would need to have the support and co-operation, of the muslim countries, in the area. Hmmmm!!!!

''by the way how does states / countries get to be states or countries? Its by war or money. Most of the US states were actually created by who paid the most money (example: The Louisiana Purchase)...''

Well, now you're just being too obvious and a little silly. What is happening in the world today is affected by what started kicking off thousands of years ago, with wars, peace, states coming together, civilisations rising and falling, more war, then religion, exploration, colonising, war, Empire.......it all has a knock on effect.

[Canticle]

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

No, LDD, what you said, was shameful, shameful in the extreme.

[Long Duck Dong]

No, LDD, what you said, was shameful, shameful in the extreme.

if you do not like it, tough !!!!!

the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....

the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission

the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to

but if you really wanna get down and dirty....

what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....

what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....

I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit.....

[darkeyes]

its realistic fran....

I support the aid movement, they were doing the right thing..... but the activist side of it was the issue...... thats why I have no issue with the transport with the aid... I have issues with how it was done and the cost to it...... besides, was I not told in this same site that every fight for rights has collateral damage ????? why has that suddenly changed ??????

israel made a reasonable offer that could have been accepted without loss of life..... and it was ignored by the activists...

professional soldiers landed on the boat and were attacked by activists.... not the humanitarians......

a second ship was launched and once again a agreement by israel and ireland was ignored, by the activists....

humanitarian aid and activism are two separate things..... I am intelligent enuf to know the difference between helping people in need and the desire to create more shit in the name of activism

You know what I picked you up on Duckie.. don't try and side track me with waffle from the despicable thing you said.. the facts of just what happened are disputed and you know it..that you have accepted Israel's side of it is your affair.. I am not taking issue with that or your views on the difference between humanitarians and activists because I dont have the time.. but I do take issue with the casual, heartless, bastardly way in which you talk about killing human beings.... that is unnacceptable and inhumane.. whatever you think of what they are and what they have done..

[Hephaestion]

From the Guardian Newspaper article indicated by Canticle.

".......In a hastily arranged press conference in central Londonshortly after his Turkish airlines plane touched down at Heathrow, Ismail Patel, the 47-year-old chairman of the Friends of al-Aqsa, condemned what he called "the cold-blooded murder and killing of our colleagues". He said: "These deaths were avoidable and I lay the blame squarely with the Israelis."

Israel has previously said its troops had been left with no choice after they came under attack from activists armed with knives and iron bars when they were dropped by helicopter on to the ship.

Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them.

"Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped," she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. "We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence."

Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said, adding she was pleased her colleagues on the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel, were continuing to Gaza this weekend............"


Of course - everybody is lying except the Israelis

Also heartening is the USA declaration that Israel must modify its behaviour as the present stance on Gaza was untenable.

[darkeyes]

First, few, if any are alive currently was driven from their homeland. So, that is false. Further, they were nomads. Not exactly a sedentary lot. But it was 1948.

Second, Israel took control of Gaza because they threw their lot in with the other Arab nations in 1967. They lost control because they gambled wrong. Sucks to be them, but not Israel's fault.

Whether you like Israel or not, it is just fucking factually incorrect to say that Gaza or the West Bank isn't under their control legally. The Palestinians fucked up in 1967. They and their offspring are still paying the price. That's how war works. Does it suck for them? Yes, but they should have had leaders who chose better.

There is no tit for tat on this where responsibility is to be laid. When the peace agreement was reached, Israel gave Palestine nearly everything it wanted. It was Palestine who broke the agreement. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel reached an agreement with them, and they chose to, instead, import weapons from Iran and Syria. They have, again, chosen poorly.

Israel doesn't want Gaza getting anything that could be weaponized. So be it. When you are surrounded by a group of people who state, publicly, that they will not rest until your nation is destroyed, that's what happens. Israel, btw, does not make such statements about it's neighbors.

You may call them bigots, and they may be. But there is bigotry, and then there is real genocidal racism. We can see the proof that Israel is not interested in committing genocide by their words and the fact that, while they control Gaza, the Palestinians are still around to fire those rockets into Tel Aviv. If Israel wished to remove them, they could. They choose not to.

Israel has said, continually in my lifetime, that it wishes a two-state solution. Palestine only wants one: one where all Jews have been killed and their homes taken. That is the stated goal of both the PLA and their other leadership groups.

I do not presume to say that Israel is blameless. But I will defend them as their neighbors makes living peacefully impossible.

And I too hope that hundreds of ships try to break that blockade. And I hope that all of the bleeding heart Anti-Semites are on board. And I hope they are stupid enough to engage the Israelis.

I don't understand how people who spend threads and threads talking about racism and xenophobia can be so anti-Semitic. Racism, of any color, is ugly.

Pasa

One thing.. the argument is with the state of Israel, its government and its institutions.. like with many you confuse that with a general distaste for the a race.. racism of any colour is ugly... yet you and people like you are quite happy to support a racist state.. and for one to lecture us about anti semitism when they themselves continually harangue us with anti-arab sentiment is somewhat laughable.. think on this Pasa.. just how many Jews are actually semetic who live outside of Israel? .. and just how many are semetic inside the country?? Don't you dare lecture me about racism...

[Hephaestion]

No wonder can never get laid off this site. Everyone is busy arguing.

Oh come on now! Isn't make up sex better?

[Hephaestion]

Pasa you live in a country (USA) where the size of the ranches is bigger than some countries in the world. How about relocating Israel into the bosom of their loving friends? The Israelis could then help you anihilate the Mexican problem (NB NOT Mexicans).

I hear that New York is already one such place where Israel has a colony. There's always more room to be found where there is a will. Perhaps there?

Problem solved. The CIA and Mossad can teach each other new tricks. The Palestinians can get on with their lives, the Israelis will be out of harms way and one potential spark point in nuclear disaster will be eliminated.

.

[TwylaTwobits]

Pasa you live in a country (USA) where the size of the ranches is bigger than some countries in the world. How about relocating Israel into the bosom of their loving friends? The Israelis could then help you anihilate the Mexican problem (NB NOT Mexicans).

I hear that New York is already one such place where Israel has a colony. There's always more room to be found where there is a will. Perhaps there?

Problem solved. The CIA and Mossad can teach each other new tricks. The Palestinians can get on with their lives, the Israelis will be out of harms way and one potential spark point in nuclear disaster will be eliminated.

.

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.

[Long Duck Dong]

You know what I picked you up on Duckie.. don't try and side track me with waffle from the despicable thing you said.. the facts of just what happened are disputed and you know it..that you have accepted Israel's side of it is your affair.. I am not taking issue with that or your views on the difference between humanitarians and activists because I dont have the time.. but I do take issue with the casual, heartless, bastardly way in which you talk about killing human beings.... that is unnacceptable and inhumane.. whatever you think of what they are and what they have done..

I am cold and heartless cos I am a ex soldier.... I have seen another side to people that the average person doesn't

I am cold and heartless cos I have done counselling and therapy work and seen just how two faced people are

I am cold and heartless cos I have sat in this site and watched people talk about fighting for rights and activism has a side effect, its called collateral damage and tell me I am wrong for my stance on peaceful protest.... then watched people scream about collateral damage when people get killed

the simple fact of the matter is I am not taking any countries side.... I am actually pointing out the double standards of activists and how when they are the victims of their own actions, they refuse to take responsibility, yet they are always holding other people responsible for other peoples actions.....

the simple fact of the matter is activists boarded a convoy with the intention of creating a issue, and what a issue they created......
but are they saying collateral damage ??? hell no.... they are screaming bloody murder cos its their own asses that got handed to them, not some innocent party....( bit like the prom threads when it was fine that all the students lost their prom but that was fine.... but when constance never got her prom the way she wanted....all hell broke loose )....

[Long Duck Dong]

now I will explain something

yes I will put all the activists on a ship and sink it.......

the reason is simple and clear..... if they wanna place lives at risk, fine,....I will help them do it..... but I am more than happy to keep them away from innocent people that have no intention of risking life and limb in the name of a peaceful cause

now people see that as shameful and inhumane...... I see it as risk reduction
I reckon that I would have about mmm maybe 10-12 people of the original hundreds on the convoy, on the ship I am going to sink.... cos the rest of the people have enuf brains to know when to speak up and when to shut up

when you have activists like rachel corrie that stand in front of heavy moving machinery, they are a risk to themselves and a danger to others.... and there is a reason why they have warnings about standing in front of heavy moving machinery...... I know what its like, I used to operate heavy moving machinery and I would not like to have on going nightmares cos some stupid person stood in front of my bulldozer and got crushed......

now if anybody wants to still think that my comment is not acceptable, yet the actions of the people on the convoy attacking trained soldiers or standing in front of heavy moving machinery, is a sign of intelligence......... how do you think about going to sea....????

[hardnbubbly]

Sure, Israel thinks it deserves the 1967 lands. Keep them, keep them all.. every single inch of the land. However, there are people living there. I wonder, why aren't they citizens? Why is Israel petrified of the one state solution.


You can't have it both ways, you either want the land with the people on it. Or you don't. Stop with the hypocrisy. We live today, 2010, where a Palestinian child born in the same land as an Israeli can die of malnourishment whereas the Israeli lives like any first world country. Tell me what crime did this child do? An Israeli settlement on one of the hilltops in the westbank has 10 times the water resources than palestinian towns and villages down in the valley. They have swimming pools for their kids while the farmers are denied enough water for their farms.

Under what logic is this a democracy that protects human rights??

[hardnbubbly]

HI Twyla,

I did not mean to belittle your research abilities and so on. But you are 150% aligned with the official Israeli narrative of the story (even Israelis that I talk to don't see things this way). There are two sides to each story and possibly more. Yes Arab armies attacked Israel 60 years ago on its inception. But how about the ordinary people, those that became refugees, those that lost their homes, were separated from their families and were refused to be let back? Many of their villages still lay deserted in Israel. Western countries (including Canada may I say) paying money to Israel to build parks over these villages to erase their memory.

Whatever this history is, there are kids being born today in the West Bank and Gaza. What is their crime? Why are they denied basic human rights? Why are they denied medicine? food? education? Why are the born to the sound of sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets flighing so low over crowded cities? Why are there so many cases of trauma in Palestinian kids?

Let's forget about Palestinians. I am sure they are less than human beings and don't deserve equal human rights. I am curious, how would you explain this: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news...-ramallah.html
Wouldn't an american deserve better treatment?

[hardnbubbly]

Interesting you say this. How about the Palestinians that were "relocated" even though they never wanted to leave?

Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.

For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.

I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.

[TwylaTwobits]

Funny no one has mentioned the news out of Egypt where their high court ruled that citizenship will be revoked for any Egyptian male who marries an Israeli bride. It has nothing to do with the recent conflict, it's been an ongoing debate for awhile there. They view the marriage as being done by a traitor, so for loving an Israeli woman an Egyptian man will lose his citizenship and be called a traitor. They simply don't want the Arab blood tainted with Jewish blood and raising children not loyal to Egypt. Lovely people those Arabs eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm

[TwylaTwobits]

Interesting you say this. How about the Palestinians that were "relocated" even though they never wanted to leave?

Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. P

[hardnbubbly]

All the countries in the Middle east have their problems, and I agree this is disgusting. It's still no excuse for Israeli actions. Remember the Egyptian president calls the Israeli one to congratulate him on Israeli holidays. Maybe one day there will be peace. I just hope it won't be by extermination.

Funny no one has mentioned the news out of Egypt where their high court ruled that citizenship will be revoked for any Egyptian male who marries an Israeli bride. It has nothing to do with the recent conflict, it's been an ongoing debate for awhile there. They view the marriage as being done by a traitor, so for loving an Israeli woman an Egyptian man will lose his citizenship and be called a traitor. They simply don't want the Arab blood tainted with Jewish blood and raising children not loyal to Egypt. Lovely people those Arabs eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm

[TwylaTwobits]

All the countries in the Middle east have their problems, and I agree this is disgusting. It's still no excuse for Israeli actions. Remember the Egyptian president calls the Israeli one to congratulate him on Israeli holidays. Maybe one day there will be peace. I just hope it won't be by extermination.

I do as well, problem is that is what the Arabs want extermination of the Jews. The Jews would happily have peace but you have hundreds of thousands suffering because of the leadership of a few.

[hardnbubbly]

Chose to leave?

So by this logic, if people chose to leave after Katrina, and someone else took over their homes, they wouldn't be allow to go back.. Gee.. they lost the war yes.. but under all circumstance they have the right to go back.


I wonder if you replace the word Israel with say Iran/North Korea, and Palestinian with a random other minority in that country how that would sound.

Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. P