Gaza Aid Convoy

[Canticle]

Twyla
Thank goodness that you gave me ten minutes to finish (maybe) my editing...lol

One issue is that this cement is Humanitarian aid under the UN definition. Israel is refusing to accept the UN definition of what constitutes materials for humanitarian aid. If a country refuses to accept what the world states is a humanitarian aid material, then I say that the country is wrong.

Well said.

[Canticle]

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

Again, well said, Fran.

[Canticle]

My post wasn't to you, Fran my love. You and I both know where we stand and we still love each other any way. But people who have to multiquote drive me insane and I'm about to hit ignore.

Therefore you stifle freedom of speech and just ignore what you don't to read, hear, or be told.

What a shame.......................

[tenni]

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

Pasa
One question is are the waters that touch Gaza, Gaza's territory or Israel territory? If Israel is admitting that Gaza is a free state with its own elected officials, why is it appropriate?

An international maritime law expert states that the procedure for a blockading country is:
Running a blockade is illegal according international maritime law.
Procedure to follow by the blockading country with a ship trying to break the blockade
1/ hail the vessel
2/ fire the shot across the ship
3/ board the ship

Innappropriate force boarding a ship breaking a blockade is not permitted once boarded. The expert stated that Israel made mistakes on Monday that resulted in unnecessary deaths.

The expert states that Israel did not use enough force before boarding. They should have tear gassed the ships on Monday before boarding the ships.

[Canticle]

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

What exactly would you like to see the Israelis do in their territorial waters??? Board every vessel, arrest all those on board, maybe shoot a few innocent, humanitarian people, or perhaps blow the ships out of the water???

Gaza has some coastline...

So what about their territorial waters????????

[Pasadenacpl2]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

[tenni]

Really? Well, that I am uncertain about. You may be correct but Gaza has its own elected government does it not? I thought that Gaza separated from Palestine. There is too grey an area where Israel gets to state that Palestine and Gaza are not sovereign but they claim to be sovereign.

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

It nay have been occupied by Israel.. but it has never been owned by them.. and it is no longer occupied by them.. merely blockaded and abused as if the people mean nothing.. and you can talk right wing up your own backside tripe till the cows come home you still talk tripe.. as bloody usual!!!

[Canticle]

To Tenni:

It was a group of six ships that were told not to break the blockade. They refused to let Israel deliver the portion they would allow. They chose to take the risk and they chose to stand as martyrs to the world. Sorry doesn't fly when they attacked the soldiers even as they were coming down the ropes.

Why should the Israelis be trusted to deliver any aid to Gaza?

What right has Israel to blockade Gaza, in the first place.

Just how did the people on boared the boats, attack soldiers who had not yet reached the deck of the boat?

What makes Israel right and everyone else wrong?

Why do the USA and a few other countries, so often refuse to condemn Israel, when Israel is the agressor?

What gives Jews the right to build on land, which has been taken away from Palestinians? Have you ever seen footage of the Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes, so that immigrant Jews, can build homes of their own.

What right does Israel have to blight the Holy land, by building a wall across it. If this was 1961 and Israel was the Soviet Union, the country would be roundly condemned.

[Canticle]

Gaza belongs to Israel. You can bitch about it, but at the end of the day, those are the facts.

If someone wants to try to break through the blockade, they know what's coming to them.

Pasa

Gaza does not belong to Israel. What a pity the State of isarael was created in 1948.

[Canticle]

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

What right have Israel to decide what is and isn't humanitarian aid? Oh.....let me guess.....they think that Israel is the chosen nation of God

[Pasadenacpl2]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

[Canticle]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

I will quote this to you, as spoken by Oliver Cromwell, to Charles I (a proud, arrogant and haughty man, not that I am suggesting you are), to try to make the Monarch see sense and reality and to avoid the necessity to execute the King, the Head of State, the annointed before God, at his coronation.

If you have found yourself to be incorrect in one area, ''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.'' about other things!!

The Israeli State was artificially created, but created it was and 60 years on, it is not going to go away. That is fact. We all know that. But this does not take away the fact, that thousands of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, were driven from their homelands and forced to live in refugee camps.

Over the past 60 years, the Israeli state, has shipped in quite a few million, non native Jews, into Israel and those settlers have not had any regard for the land which still belonged to Palestinian Arabs. They have tried to build wherever they wanted, even going into the Arab areas of Jerusalem...a holy city to Jew, Christian and Muslim.

The Israeli state is an arrogant one. It does not think, that it is ever in the wrong and believes that it can do exactly what it likes. You may consider some of the Palestinian factions to be terrorists. To the Palestinians and I am sure, not to all of them, these people are freedom fighters. Fighting for them, where the rest of the world has not.

Over 60 years ago, there were Jews in the land then known as Palestine, who were regarded as terrorists. Those ''terrorists,'' later became leaders of the State of Israel. One man's terrorist is very often, another man's freedom fighter.

The Israeli state does treat the Palestinians badly and looks down on them. Arabs, like Jews, are Semites. We are taught that it is wrong to be anti-semitic. The state of Israel comes down hard on Jewish dissidents and the country also has a large nuclear area and it has nuclear weapons.

Why should Israel be treated differently. Yes, Jews suffered greatly during the Holocaust, but genocide has been going on since the first tribal battles humans fought and we have seen genocide of Muslims in Europe, in recent years and also massacres in parts of Africa and God alone knows, where else.

Gaza has it's own coastline and I would argue that this means it also has territorial waters, which the Israeli's have no right to enter. What the Israelis did to those boats was in international waters, was piracy and an act of war.

The state of Israel is too fond of taking things into it's own hands and carrying out raids, in different parts of the world and don't think that Mossad is not around, in every country, which the Israelis deem necessary. They assassinate people, to get rid of them.

Yes, the other side does this too and that is not right, either. One hits out, the other hits back and so it goes on, but Israel is meant to be a wealthy, civilised country. I see no signs of it.

Google Mordechai Vanunu...a Christian convert. It seems that Jews don't like other Jews converting to Christianity, anymore than Muslims like other Muslims to do so. Also they do not like their dirty secrets revealed.

''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.''

Think on a little more.

[darkeyes]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

Bugga..an ther wos me wiv a more detailed smart arse reply 2 ya Pasa... an ya admits ya wer wrong.. yas taken me breath away...

[darkeyes]

Fingers crossed for the Rachel Corrie.. lets hope she does betta than the girl she is named afta did 'gainst an Israeli bulldozer...

[tenni]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

I was wrong on the ownership issue. Researched amd found I was wrong.

Pasa

Now here is a gentleman of decency and honour.

[Hephaestion]

If Gaza is not occupied and is its own self governing entity then, as someone else pointed out, whose territorial waters are the Israeli boats thundering up and down in (as we are able to see on our news broadcasts)?

Good luck to the present humanitarian sailing.

.

[tenni]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

[Long Duck Dong]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

pity that the activists never did that in the first place.... 9 lives would have been saved.....

apparently there was a agreement between ireland and israel over this lot and the activists chose to ignore that and try and do it their way......
are the activists that fuckin stupid that they did not learn the first time ???


so now another attempt and thank god that the activists this time, had the common sense not to try and go all rambo on a trained professional soldiers ass.... its just a shame that they lacked the common sense to just sail to the port in the first place.....

I am all for people standing up for their beliefs and rights.... but I believe in the power of compromise and peaceful resolution...... that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

[darkeyes]

that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

Thats a fuckin awful thing 2 say Duckie... it makes u sound heartless an positively nasty.. thats hardly compromise is it?? It makes u sound every bit as nasty as the I believe Netanyahu and his bloody government are... now we know just where u stand... It seems u dont believe in people standing up for their rights at all...

[tenni]

Maybe someone is off his meds today?

[darkeyes]

Maybe someone is off his meds today?

Hope its that Tenni.. reely dus...

[Canticle]

pity that the activists never did that in the first place.... 9 lives would have been saved.....

apparently there was a agreement between ireland and israel over this lot and the activists chose to ignore that and try and do it their way......
are the activists that fuckin stupid that they did not learn the first time ???


so now another attempt and thank god that the activists this time, had the common sense not to try and go all rambo on a trained professional soldiers ass.... its just a shame that they lacked the common sense to just sail to the port in the first place.....

I am all for people standing up for their beliefs and rights.... but I believe in the power of compromise and peaceful resolution...... that and I actually would have sunk the ship with all the activists on it, after the aid had been unloaded...

Shame on you, LDD. Shame on you.

[Canticle]

The Rachel Corrie has been boarded by Israel from the sea rather than helicopter. There was no resistance from the 11 Palestinian activists from Ireland and Malaysia on board. The attempt to provide humanitarian aid that included medicine, wheelchairs and cement was mainly sponsored by the Free Gaza movement, a Cyprus-based group that has renounced violence. The ship is being taken to the Israel port Ashdad.

So another act of piracy and war by the Israelis. I hope many more ships set out for Gaza. I hope that ship after ship will try to get across international waters, to the territorial waters of Gaza. I hope that they will sail there in their hundreds.

[boca.openminded]

When Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel, perhaps yhey won't be blockaded. They can have peace when they wish. It's up to them.

Pasa

I 100% agree...

How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace? They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods. The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.

There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!"

The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.

Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.

[darkeyes]

I 100% agree...

How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace? They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods. The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.

There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!"

The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.

Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.

Israel probably does want peace.. it cant hold out encircled forever.. sure it has nuclear weapons but do they really believe that will save them from ultimate destruction unless there is peace? I think it was Noam Chomsky who said that Israel is expendable to US policy.. and I think he is right.. when the day comes that Israel is of no further use to the US it will be discarded like so many pairs of old socks. Then what do they do? I believe Israeli's are aware of this and so they will do what they can to neuter as far as possible any opposition from the surrounding states while they continue to be America's favourite son.. Iran and nuclear weapons? That will be the end of both.. Israel more so because Israel is a much smaller population in a much smaller land area.. it may be the end of us all if it escalates... so it is in Israel's interest for peace.. but what Israel wishes is peace at Israel's price and so it throws its weight about like the bully it is.. Arab nations certainly bear their share of responsibility for Israel thinking in this way, but Israel could and should have shown greater magnanimity in victory and more patience in its search for a lasting peace which would be beneficial to all.. now with every year that passes Israel creates more problems for itself by throwing its weight around more often than not against unarmed civilians rather than those they term terrorist..

Israel wants peace on Israel's terms.. at present there is no middle way.. not with Netanyahu at the helm of government... whatever the historical reasons for it, that is their price and that price is unnacceptable to Palestinian arabs in particular and arabs and much of the rest of the muslim world in general..

[Canticle]

''How can anyone say that Israel does not want peace?''

Because we can and we can, because of what some of us have observed, over the years. Israel is no more a peace loving nation. than any of the other factions involved.

''They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace but what happened? It only brought the Palestinians closer to Isreal which means their rockets now go deeper into the Israeli neighborhoods.''

The Gaza strip was not Israel's, to give or withold. Gaza was never part of Israel. How did the ''giving,'' of Gaza, bring the Palestinians, closer to Israel, when the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim), were already living there, having been, driven from their homelands, when the State of Israel was created.

What you have stated here is slightly ludicrous and I mean no personal insult, there. The people were already in the area and missiles have been fired at Israel for many years, just as Israel has fired missiles back, for a considerable amount of time, as well as launching invasions and attacks on other neighbours. Or have you forgotten what Israel did to Lebanon a couple of years back. I know I have not.

''The Hammas / Palestinians take peoples homes by force in order to shoot rockets from their houses. Then when Israel retaliates the Palestinians scream how Israel shot at innocent people.''

Of course, the Israeli authorities, would never do a similar thing, would they and they wouldn't bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, so that Israelis could go against agreements reached, about not building on Palestinian land. No, they wouldn't do that, would they?

'There will NEVER be peace when someone says publicly "Israel needs to be destroyed!" '

Agreed..........but you have to remember why Arab and non Arab Muslim countries, are still bitter about the creation....not evolution......but creation and by outside forces......of the State of Israel.

''The reason why countries are against Iran / Iraq going nuclear is clearly because everyone knows & its been said that they will use them to remove Israel from the map. If you think differently, you are fk'n crazy.''

Who, are the Western powers, to tell any other country, that it should not and cannot have, nuclear weapons? Why is it OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons?

What proof is their that Iraq intended to have nuclear weapons? Saddam Hussein was meant to be stockpiling, weapons of mass destruction! Gee....have they been found, yet? Iraq, as a country, has been pretty much screwed up now and will be that way for decades to come.

Just because Iran wants nuclear power, it doesn't mean that they wish to have nuclear weapons. It's gotta be proven.

And here is another thought. If any of the Islamic countries surrounding Israel, had nuclear weapons and decided to use them, to destroy Israel. they would also destroy the most holy places, held sacred by their religion.

The land and the different areas of the land, are totally sacred to Islam, as they are to Judaism and even Christianity. Do you think that they would risk the wrath of Allah, for destroying the ''holy'' land.

They would also kill thousands of Muslims. I'd be more affeared of Israel using her nuclear capabilities.

So we critics of Israel....ain't f*****g crazy.

''Israel knows they were at fault and had an itchy trigger but what do you expect when each day the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues.''

Oh, Israel will not think that it is at fault, because it believes itself to be the chosen nation. And how do you know the Palestinians are sneaking arms into their country by innocent venues. Do you have proof???

[Hephaestion]

boca "...They gave the Gaza strip as the first step towards peace ..."

It's the Palestinian's land to begin with? So therefore all the Iraelis did was to not occupy it (which would have been more expensive).

The question arises as to whether the Iraelis are in fact solvent. Unless war makes a profit in booty and other gains e.g. oil then it is a drain on a county's resources. Only thing that comes to mind is relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA. ANyone have an answer?

Maybe it would have been better if Israel had taken the original offer to set up their country in Uganda.

.

[Canticle]

From The Guardian newpaper online...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results



Also, reading the Saturday edition report, gives further details.

[darkeyes]

The question arises as to whether the Iraelis are in fact solvent. Unless war makes a profit in booty and other gains e.g. oil then it is a drain on a county's resources. Only thing that comes to mind is relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA. ANyone have an answer?

.

Relentless donations from abroad and unlimited credit from the USA and good deals on weapons.. and Jaffa oranges..