Crusaders were OK eh...typical
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Crusaders were OK eh...typical
Sense? You make none?
Pasa
"Their entire mission was to break the blockade."
One thing that I am a bit confused about is who has approved this blockade other than Israel? What countries have publicly supported Israel's right to block access to Gaza's ports for humanitarian aid as defined by the UN? I do not believe that the UN has approved this blockade.
Many countries have shown disapproval for the Israel's actions and yet some posters on here claim that Israel has the right to blockade Gaza's waters.
You aren't confused. You know damn well why the blockade was there. And you know damn well that you don't have to have approval of your actions to do something as a sovereign nation. That's the point of being sovereign, Tenni.
Now, there are consequences if you piss off your neighbors, to be sure. For instance, when you continually fire rockets into your neighbor's school yards and shopping centers, you get your neighbor blocking your access to imports.
When Gaza stops shooting at Israel, the blockade will cease. As long as they continue to fire at Israel (no, it really doesn't matter if you think it's justified), they will be under siege. That's the truth. Your, and my, opinion of that truth doesn't matter terribly much. The truth is, Gaza, and the rest of palestine can end this. They choose not to. And they suffer the consequences of that choice. Unfortunately, their sons and daughters also suffer the consequences. But, their parents and leaders made that choice on their behalf. Such is the way of things.
Pasa
There is no dispute Pasa.
Israel was entirely in the wrong whatever the claimed rules are. The rest of the world says so and this includes the USA albeit quietly. Just look at the collateral damage, the greatest of which is damaging the west's relationship with Turkey.
Israel needs to apologise for its wrong doing throughout the years and for the flotilla incident especially.
Perhaps you could put a duration on the time rewuired for no attacks needed for Israel to lift the blockade from its side. I month, 2 months, 1 year, a decade?
In the meanwhile will Israel stop stealing land and water? The Israelis need to understand that the world is losing patience with them. The blockade is being circumvented as we write.
Still not worse than the terrorism committed by the palestinians. Not even close.
And, Israel didn't steal the land. Palestine lost it due to war. If you go to war, and get your ass kicked you risk losing your land, and your wealth.
Pasa
the blockade is to limit or stop lethal weapons going to gaza..... if israel is to stop the blockade, that can lead to a increase in the number of deaths
is that a acceptable result of ending the blockade ????? and if so, will the same people that believe israel is wrong, then accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of the lifting of the blocking ????? or will they pass the blame to the rocket users
under international marine law and UN law, israel has the right to limit or restrict vessels that may be transporting lethal weapons or items used to make lethal weapons.... they are not stopping aid to gaza, they are restricting the importation of dangerous material and allowing the transfer of aid related materials
now the same rules are used with trade embargos against countries that seek to import nuclear material and other weapons..... by the UNSC under international laws.... and blockades
if israel is wrong, then any other trade restriction or embargo is wrong, when applied, using the same rules..... .
again its a case of one set of rules applied differently to different countries....
hamas has stated that they intend to wipe the jews out.....
israel is trying to protect their own and others.....
and why are no other countries standing up and ready to accept responsibility for any deaths as a result of any importation of objects and chemicals that result in the creation of lethal weapons in gaza???
the objections by other countries, are a token gesture.... as they know full well, lifting the blockade, can and will result in more deaths.....and those other countries will sit there with their token objections over the deaths.....
but I can not help but draw a direct connection between gaza and israel...... and the usa and afghanistan......
by hell the usa went to war asap when the twin towers were attacked, citing a act of war and defending their home land, against major opposition from the UN
israel is trying to avoid the same thing while defending their home land..... and being judged as wrong....
0100hrs BST Announced by the USA:
a) that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is untenable
b) a 400million dollar aid package is being arranged for Gaza
c) the Israelis should succumb to an international enquiry under the UN
Seems like the 9/10 flotilla deaths may well go down as martyrs to a cause. Deaths of innocents have a habit of being preserved that way.
UN security council carried the USA proposal that trade sanctions should continue against Iran on the basis of 'continued nuclear research' - TURKEY along with Brazil objected to the sanctions (well done Israel).
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Pasa my ol buddy debater
You know me so well as to when I'm confused and when I'm not?...lol
I know why the blockade is there. I never said that I didn't know. Perhaps you as a citizen of the US do not give sufficient credence to the UN. The UN has not sanctioned this blockade. If it had been determined to create a blockade the UN might have approved of it. I believe that I wrote earlier that the UN sanctioned the US and several other countries to create a blockade of Iraq during the Gulf war. No such actions this time. I know that the comment might be that Israel does not have the support due to the number if arab countries who would oppose it. Maybe that is true. Who has the right to blockade? Should the rest of us blockade the US for the crap that is spewing out of your Gulf oil wells? Should we blockade the US for creating an international financial crisis? Of course not. Should we blockade the US for invading Iraq? Maybe. Israel is permitted to have the blockade because the US is quietly supporting it..maybe? Still no formal approval by any country that I can recall. Hep is pointing out that the rest of the world is losing its patience with Israel.
Mind you now that I think about it..maybe the US may piss off the rest of us with the environmental disaster that it is creating. USA USA BLOCKADE...kid'n
Do we all know that Wedneday June 9th is raze PASA Day?...:eek::bigrin:
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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
a) agreedQuote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
b) agreed, as long as its not aid or supplies that can be used to make weapons
c) agreed if both parties are investigated fully...... protestors and commandos...
honestly I think that what we will hear is the *best * political * findings of the events within the flotilla..... but I have never had much trust in any commissions or findings....
I learnt that in the army, there is the official truth, the unofficial truth and then there is what actually happened which only the people there, actually know and 9 of them are dead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
It is possible to make a weapon out of anything given the right circumstances. So the proviso of comment in b is undermined. Even a pencil can be lethal AKA a sharp stick. There is a saying that it takes two to tango so perhaps one should establsih an embargo to disarm the Israelis as they are the ones who are doing the killing (For good measure let's include house building materials and water prospecting equipment to prevent stealing land and water).
The evidence is quite clear. The Israelis went in shooting. It was intended as a hard lesson tactic. Perhaps the intention was intimidation, the only problem being that it went wrong - head shot wrong - right between the eyes. 9 people dead but not a single Israeli, is evidence, despite one of them having been captured and taken to isolation - alive.
People should be given credit that they are able to discern the difference between a ships heavy calibre weapon for a claimed across the bow shot (shoud there also have been a splash?) and the mix of manual and machine guns that would have been fired at the ships and people. The Israelis were armed despite the one time claim that they weren't. The claimed lack of armed aggression on the boats other than the Mavi Marmara turned out to be a lie. Stun grenades and rubber bullets can maim and kill, as can paint guns.
There is only one truth. The rest are fabrications and distortions and these are plainly evident in this case. What a soldier is told to get a job done isn't necessariy the truth.
The Israelis will not accept an impartial investigation becaue they already know the outcome. That is because they already know the truth. They screwed up and killed people - innocent people on a simple humanitarian mission.
That is why they reallly ought to be confessing and asking for the world's mercy, and forgiveness from their allies. They have lost any moral high ground and are currently digging a deepening hole for themselves. Reminder that they need to win back the hearts and minds of the world and continually nurture its goodwill towards them.
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my main question is why did the ships not stop..... they knew that israel did not intend to stop the transfer of aid..... and what the hell were the protesters trying to prove with running the blockade.... was it just a humane mission.... or was it actually more
but as israel has stated, it was simply the failure to stop by the ships that led to the boarding... and the protestors had stated they had no intention of stopping.....
so again, I am not blaming either side, but saying that both sides need to answer for their own actions....
the unanswered question I have, that can not be answered, is why did the 9 people attack commandos.... its not something your average protestor does....and the 9 people that can answer it, are dead....
ok... across the bow shooting, its normally by a ship mounted weapon... and normally rapid fire.... unless you are using a ship mounted small cannon type weapon....
the sounds in the videos I have watched are small calibre fire and single shots...not consistently with a semi automatic or automatic weapon... but consistent with small arms fire, aka pistols....
if there was automatic weapons fire on the boats... you would be seeing a lot of holes in walls as machine guns are useless at close range, limited spread shooting.... pistols work better
allowing for the fact that stun grenades and paint guns were used, the israelis were expecting passive resistance..... not aggressive resistance... the pistols would have been a last resort....
but yes, stun grenades and rubber bullets can kill..... but the israelis were carrying paintball guns.... they do not use rubber bullets...so where did the rubber bullets come into it.... they are limited range bullets and if fired from a boat, the boat would have to be within 20 meters of the ship, close enuf to attempt a ship side boarding....
the official stories ( not story ) are not matching up.... and I am not talking about the israeli side of things.... I am talking about what the protestors are saying....
communications were blocked before the boarding, and I am allowing for a full band block ( signal by satelite and radio ).... yet I constantly hear about radio communications between the ships while a communications block was active ???? sorry... that doesn't ring true... on both sides..
the israelis supposedly confiscated all videos and recordings... yet I am seeing videos from on the ships.... by the protestors.... so it was either not confiscated, smuggled off the boat, transmitted ( again the signal block issue )
the israelis supposedly boarded each ship by copter.... so why are the protestors talking about lowering ladders for commandos to board some ships.. either they did not board each ship by copter or they did but with further support by boat
ok as for weapons... I am thinking weapons grade objects and chemicals .... bomb making etc....
as i posted earlier, there was a few ton of cement that can be used to make bombs.... why was plastercrete not transported instead.... it only requires water, not builders mix gravel... it can be cast in pre fab form better than concrete... its easier to work with, sets faster.. etc etc.....
at the end of the day, hephas.... there is a lot of BS in the media, the israels story and the protestors story.....and 9 dead people.....
I fully welcome any attempt to blockade the US. I also fully welcome any attempt to put the US into an isolationist position. I think you will find that other nations suffer for this far more than the US will.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
No, I don't give much credence to the UN. It's a nice get together. But it is NOT a governing body. It does not hold power over nations. That was neither the purpose in the beginning, nor is it now. No one needs the UN's blessing to do anything. Sure, it makes it easier, occasionally, but it's not necessary.
To say that Israel's blockade is illegal because it isn't blessed by the UN is to not understand the scope, purpose, or power of the UN. It is also an indication of not understanding the concept of the word sovereign.
REPEAT: When Palestine stops accepting arms from Iran and Syria, and stops firing those arms into Israel, the blockade will stop. NEWS FLASH: When you try to break a blockade, and get caught, people will die. If you put yourself there on purpose, and you die, you essentially committed suicide and it's your own damn fault.
Pasa
At the end of the day, we have 6 other ships that were boarded without incident. This ship was different for some reason that I won't speculate on. We have a group of people who were told not to try to break the blockade, they didn't listen and instead decided that violence was a better option. That only 9 died should be the story. Those people placed themselves in peril, and have no one to blame but themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Pasa
I guess being shot in the head from a helicopter is just expected in INTERNATIONAL waters. They didn't even get to Israeli waters let alone Gazan waters. They were on INTERNATIONAL territory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Wow.. since when are you the spokeswoman for Gaza.
Gazan are normal people.. just like you and me.. they are occupied and they are looking for their freedom. Yes there are fanatics and yes there are the pacifists and there are others that don't give a damn.. they don't care who is ruling them as long as they get to feed their kids, get their shelter, their education and their dignity. Same goes for Israelis, there are just as many fanatics who burn mosques, destroy farms, and deface cemeteries.
I guess to you Israel can do no wrong..
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Ok...if and when the US collapses as a super power due to fiscal mismanagement, depletion of natural resources(already happened) etc. and China or India become "the" super power, we will see how you react if you are blockaded. Until then, keep truck'n on as if being top of the heap will continue forever. Proclaim yourself as exporting freedom and democracy rather than oppressing and controlling other countries like any other "empire" country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Oh, I understand the effect it will have on the US, Tenni. Several things:
1. Do you honestly think any navy, hell, any 4 navies have the ability to blockade us?
2. We'd deplete resources...for awhile. It would actually force us to move ahead in new fuels and new ways of doing things. Innovation is what drives the US, always has been. As for other things, I'm ok with us losing a bit of world power. But, let me ask you, who will step in to take our place?
Who will step in to give the largest amount of both governmental and private aid to both industries and nations? Who will step in to at least try to curb the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Who will step in to feed nations in need? Who will the UN call on whenever it wants a watchdog? Who will defend NATO when Russia decides it no longer wants to play ball (and, if you're watching Putin, this will be within this decade)? Who will stop Iran when the UN finally decides that it was a mistake to allow Iran to go this far? What will Canada do when we no longer trade with you? What will Canada do when other nations decide it wants Canada's resources? We can defend our nation from invasion. Can you? Somehow, I doubt it.
You can villify the US all you want. It's easy to do when you live under the blanket and comfort of the protection we provide you. But, when push comes to shove, we have wielded our power with far more responsibility, and far more benevolence than any other comparable power in the history of the world. For every wrong you can show, I can show ten goods. My nation is not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than you, in your tin foil hat, paints it.
Kindly, and with respect, fuck off.
Pasa
Agreed. Completely. The one fault I have found with Israel is where they did this. I agree with them about what they did, and even how they did it. But, they pulled the trigger too early. 100% agreed with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
Pasa
I do apologize for beginning to take this thread off topic and diverting it to the possible blockading of Mr "SuperPOwerrrrrrr" in his possible approaching dotage years.(to make a point via metaphoric comparison) Pasa has now joined me in diverting our attention from the Gaza blockade to some poster's favourite topic...how wonderful or terrible Uncle Sam is. Suffice to say that it is a matter of interpretative speculation as to whether the US may be blockaded one day by a country more powerful than himself. Should any country be permitted to blockade and board cargo ships in international waters? Somolian pirates no...Israel storm trooping commando armed bullies ....?
You keep trying to use trigger words to describe this. I'm sure if you repeat lies often enough, you might get others to repeat them too, and believe them. There is a considerable difference between this and piracy, and you know it.
Now, could you contribute some thing useful other than paranoia and tin foil hat exposition? We get it. You're anti-Israel, and anti-US. Move on.
Pasa
tin foil hat? omg I think of that as words used by radical, extremist narrow minded people as a put down...Did you get your hands on their official "words to use " handbook?...lol
Please expand upon how the differences between Somolian pirates and the Israel's actions ..other than one is a state sponsored act and the other are actions by citizens a near failed state that can not control its citizens. There are few other differences, I agree. Israel is a country that has experienced rockets fired from Gaza. Israel has also done questionable deeds such as using depleted uranium bullets when it invaded neighbouring countries. I agree that this is not a black and white situation. I agree with you that Israel pulled the trigger too soon in International waters. That is the main point here. It was not in Israeli nor Gazan waters. The pirates of Somalia are boarding cargo ships in international waters as well. They held their prisoners and blackmailed the cargo ship owners. Israel is holding all Gazan hostage as well. Israel doesn't want money though. *stops ramble :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Tin Foil hat fits. Hell, the Depleted Uranium claim is one of those conspiracy theory stories. Last I checked, the claim was made in 2000, and found to be wrong. It was made in 2006, and again found to be wrong. And again claimed in 2009. And the IAEA was asked to launch yet another investigation. The IAEA has been remarkably silent on the issue since.
You make claims that you can't back up. You did this about President Bush. You do this now against Israel. You have professed on these boards to believe just about every conspiracy nut to get onto the airwaves with an ax to grind against your preferred targets. It makes you incredibly susceptible to assumption, supposition, and bad journalism.
I'll keep repeating: When Gaza stops attacking Israel and accepts peace, Gaza will cease to be under siege. As long as they maintain a capability, and a desire to attack Israel, they will be under siege. That's how sieges work.
Pasa
Thanks for your perspective but it didn't clear up the differences between between Israel's actions and the Somali pirates actions in international water. You go off topic. Accusations about your government which also has been accused of using depleted uranium bullets in Iraq have been proven but not related to this topic specifically. Accusations about Israel's use of such bullets is relevant to Israel's actions with its neigbhours. No side is completely correct or wrong here. We may only discuss the specific actions and unfortunately mired in a lot of cross accusations and wrong actions. It is a mess. In this case, unless proven otherwise, both you and I agree that Israel was wrong to shoot to kill people in international waters. Yes?
* almost resists commenting on nut cases and Bush metaphoric possibilities...:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
No, we do not agree.
It was wrong to board in international waters. Once those on board decided to attack, all bets were off. The story here should be that only nine were killed is the more important story here. Having watched every video that's been released so far, those on board are lucky that they only had 9 die.
When you decide to become a combatant against people who are better at it than you, when you are acting in defiance of what they've asked, you have no one to blame but yourself for getting killed.
Pasa
We agree that boarding in international waters was wrong? well there ya go!!! Two other issues:
1/ There are statements from those on the ships that shots were fired before the Israelis boarded. (according to one international maritime law expert who stated that Israel should have used tear gas and not bullets before booarding).
2/ All videos shot by those on board were confiscated by Israel. Israel selectively released some of the video. Accusations exist of editing of the videos.
*I'm not saying that these accusations are correct but they are made by those who were actually on the ships. Three were Canadian and I don't know how he did it or even if he was the one to get this footage. He was on the ship were the shootings happened. He stated that there was blood everywhere. People gasping to breath and others trying desparately trying to keep them alive. Blood spattered all over a wall of the ship was shown in Canada. He stated that it showed how violent the interaction was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.
No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.
Pasa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Now, I know I bowed out, tired of the futility of debating with Pro-Zionist people, who appear very fundamentalist, in their view of the Middle East's problems, but I just had to comment.
Pasa.......you are amazing!!
I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.
And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.
Pasa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
WELL SAID! I agree with you 100 per cent!
I'd love to know the person(s) who believe that shots rang out from the helicopter. Perhaps they could then furnish proof! Just like earlier in this thread someone FAILED TO SEE THE VIDEOS showing the"PEACE? ACTIVISTS" attacking soldiers holding onto a rope as they repeled from the helicopter. How convenient! So many haters in this world! Too bad they do not tell the truth in order to support their ridiculous assertions and alleged opinions! REUTERS NEWS AGENCY, another staple of liberal thinking printed doctored photos of the incident. They were forced to admit that the PEACE ACTIVISTS had knives in their hands! They edited that fact out in the photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
No, Pasa, not quips. An observation. I guess that you would like all, who do not agree with you, to bow out. Well, heck, it doesn't happen that way. Of course, as an intelligent person, you will realise exactly what was meant by ''amazing,'' won't you? Yes, I am sure that you must.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Heph and Tenni, I have read your intelligent and very calmly made comments, with great interest. Thank you.
an observation as ridiculous as the REUTERS- doctored up photos that were printed worldwide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
Pasa I have read your VERY intelligent posts regarding this issue. I thank you for them. Too bad there are so many blind haters in this world. I know that you knew that they would attack you here and you were right!
No Canticle, I love it when I can debate people like Heph who don't threaten me or make snide comments while saying they're leaving. If you're bowing out, then do so. I never asked you to. But I respected it enough not to take parting shots at you. You, however, just had to come back to take one at me.
Go along, Canticle. Don't you have a report to Drew to make?
Pasa
Let me see if I have this right. The people on the boats had no guns and the soldiers did. So WHO was it shot first?
Hmmm!
Give up Pasa. Even your own country admits that the Iraelis got it wrong. They used soldiers when customs officers would have been more appropriate even though these would have been illegal also.
Announced today by the USA that Israel will have to acquiesce to Arabs being allowed to re-settle back in Israel (rather than stay in the concentration camps as they are now).
Thanks for the compliment Pasa - I hope that I don't let you down
I worded that poorly, Heph. And seeing how I did word it, that was silly of me.
I meant "fired before boarding." Yes, they fired...but they were being attacked.
Did you watch the videos of the melee? Just a simple yes or no will suffice.
Pasa
BTW, Obama, yesterday, said that Israel has a right to ensure that Gaza can't import weapons. He also said that he would like Gazans to be able to live more freely, but that Israel's right to ensure their safety against weapons comes first.
Pasa
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
You can also be quite funny...if I read with a specific typing voice inflection...lol
...with a different typing inflection....not so much...:tongue:
* wonders if PASA's computer has typing inflections ;)
I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?