War on Terror Over - Terrorism Wins

[void()]

The US has about 40,000 killed per year in automobile accidents,
20,000 per year murdered, and 20,000 per year suicides. Total number
killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819. That is
roughly ten percent of the suicides or murders.

To say the reaction of the U.S. was disproportionate would be an
understatement. What does the U.S. do to combat suicides? It slashes
budgets for mental health care across the board. People with mental
disorders now go to prisons, instead of mental health care
facilities.

Yes, it was terrible people died in an attack. Even more terrible I
think was our reaction. We threw good lives away after good lives were
lost. And we did it out of fear. The fear was exaggerated by our own
leaders using the media and politics.

Seems terrorism won the war from day one. I do not require a response
for this post. If you read it and think a little bit, that is thanks
or cursing enough.

Citing:

http://goo.gl/t3KfU - _Deaths from Homicide_ Right Diagnosis

http://goo.gl/1ac1x - _Crash & Casualty Statistics for the USA_
Driveandstayalive Inc.

http://goo.gl/jPZMN - _Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury_ CDC

http://goo.gl/bhBMG - _The New Asylums_ PBS Frontline

http://goo.gl/hEVi9 - _9/11 by the Numbers_ New York magazine

[dafydd]

wars declared on common nouns never win e.g terror, drugs,poverty, cyber crime, fat etc. you have to declare war on proper nouns to stand a chance e.g Confederates, Germany, Marxism, Monday mornings. then you know who/what ur aiming at.

[12voltman59]

The "War on Terror" along with most of the other "wars" that we Americans fight---are pretty much designed to distract and divide Americans from realizing and focusing their ire against those who are conducting--the real war being waged that is against our freedoms and the sort of prosperity and advancement experienced the last roughly 100 years or so, by the vast majority of the population.

[nutme]

wars declared on common nouns never win e.g terror, drugs,poverty, cyber crime, fat etc. you have to declare war on proper nouns to stand a chance e.g Confederates, Germany, Marxism, Monday mornings. then you know who/what ur aiming at.

What a wonderful mind you have, Daf. LOL.

[Jason0012]

Marxism is an idea not a thin, therefore a poor target for a huge campaign, and I really doubt one would get very far in a war on monday mornings. That aside point very well put. It is truly shameful that the american people are stupid enough to stand for a continuous war on an invisible illdefined idea. The net result of said war is destruction of our civil liberties and economy as corporate profits soar. I am truely dismayed that the only people in this country outraged over the constitutional crisis caused by our current political morrass are the right wing nut jobs who are only concerned with thier gun rights! I want to hear some out rage over the collapse of due process, habeus corpus, and free speech/assembly. It worries me to think that as things get worse, the people who will stand up against our corrupt and disfunctional corporate run government are not people I would ever want defending me! The occupy movement seemed to hold some potential , but I fear that a bunch of homeless stoners camped out on a lawn down town doing yoga somehow lack any foundation in reality, or any kind of effective message.

[dafydd]

The "War on Terror" along with most of the other "wars" that we Americans fight---are pretty much designed to distract and divide Americans from realizing and focusing their ire against those who are conducting--the real war being waged that is against our freedoms and the sort of prosperity and advancement experienced the last roughly 100 years or so, by the vast majority of the population. but youre less free as a society than say cultures of the EU, Aussieland, New Hobbitland (NZ), UK, Scandanavia, Canada etc . Americans must endure less civilised rights than most Western democracies. as far as 'advanced' goes, look to Asia my friend. they r creating the techno future for us all. pls dont ask me to expound my generalised points cos im typing this on an onscreen playstation keyboard using a playstation controller. has taking me 15mins for 2 lines and a RSA in both thumbs

[dafydd]

Marxism is an idea not a thin, therefore a poor target for a huge campaign, and I really doubt one would get very far in a war on monday mornings. That aside point very well put. It is truly shameful that the american people are stupid enough to stand for a continuous war on an invisible illdefined idea. The net result of said war is destruction of our civil liberties and economy as corporate profits soar. I am truely dismayed that the only people in this country outraged over the constitutional crisis caused by our current political morrass are the right wing nut jobs who are only concerned with thier gun rights! I want to hear some out rage over the collapse of due process, habeus corpus, and free speech/assembly. It worries me to think that as things get worse, the people who will stand up against our corrupt and disfunctional corporate run government are not people I would ever want defending me! The occupy movement seemed to hold some potential , but I fear that a bunch of homeless stoners camped out on a lawn down town doing yoga somehow lack any foundation in reality, or any kind of effective message. Marxism is a proper noun! the war on Mondays is one we must all fight. i can tell u im winning mine...

[void()]

I am truely dismayed that the only people in this country outraged over the constitutional crisis caused by our current political morrass are the right wing nut jobs who are only concerned with thier gun rights! I want to hear some out rage over the collapse of due process, habeus corpus, and free speech/assembly.

Point one, guns are tools enabling one to hunt food, defend their lives. I have grandfathers that are lifetime card carrying NRA members. One is also an honorary Son of Liberty. Some of us "gun nuts" were brought up properly and while at times we may struggle with sadness, frustration we are generally reasonably sane.

Point two, I would like to note outrage over the lacking education, the cost of higher education. Right now, we should be pouring resources into researching and developing solar and wind energy, nano-technology, advanced biochemistry and biophysics. We ought to have a lot more, a lot broader range of employment in these fields. Also, water filtering and processing is vital.

Another thing we should be looking into is aquaculture farming. Oil is gone as far as I'm concerned. Yes I know it still exists, also know we hit production back in 2000 - 2001. There may be more but we can't figure out how to get at it feasibly. So, yes agree with you on things to be outraged about, tack on a few as well.

[void()]

Marxism is a proper noun! the war on Mondays is one we must all fight. i can tell u im winning mine...

Lots of lasagna, over there, hon?

[dafydd]

Lots of lasagna, over there, hon? why do u look like an Ent?

[void()]

why do u look like an Ent?

Oh sorry, thought coming as you are was still acceptable. I'll go change.

[dafydd]

u need to remember what you're truly made of void nee ent: its not taproot, or spriggan sap in your veins..... but pure sodom chloride thats found floating around the interstices in which u dwell. i liked ur old look, was kind of mysterious, sexy even. so sprinkle this (see pic) on your skeever tail for a kick back.. nihilistic, void? really whats the point in that?

[welickit]

Interesting that you refer to what grandpa did and what others did and stats some government funded lopsided research for. When do we hear your own contribution? What you did for the right to free speech? What you did for grandpa to have the right to keep his musket? Finding fault with a system is easy, showing your own merits may be a bit more of a problem.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

I lost friends on 9/11. I know the pain of that day as do all Americans. I was at the time a firefighter in the U.S. Air Force. I am now a civilian firefighter. Lets just say, I have some vary deep feelings about this topic. I am open to hear anyone's opinions about what happen that day and the events that fallowed. That said, I rarely share my own.

How ever I will say this. We deserve the government we have, freedom's we've lost and the economy we are living in. I say this because I see that most people are unconscious to the world. They only react to what effects them or the ones closest to them. Posting on a message board is a way to show others that you do see whats going. This is good, but its not going to change anything. All of you know this.

Most Americans will complain about how messed up our government is. Yet only a fraction of us vote. We complain about the banks, but keep our money in the ones that risked our money and our homes. Ask your self, did you vote? Did you move your money to a local bank or credit union? All of these "giant evil corporations" that secretly run the country. We are the ones that feed them, we by there products, we give them there power there voice. Oh and they don't even try to keep it a secret anymore.

I hear a lot of negative thoughts on gun rights in here and other places. From my own life experiences, again my own experiences. Most gun violence I have see. Comes from people that feel like they have no control over there life or there future. The best and only real way to change it is to give them control. The only way to do that is to give them a good education. Education is the only way any of us will gain control over our lives. Governments that oppress there people. The first thing that they take is the right to speak freely. The second thing they take is the ability to get an education. The second amendment was given to us to protect the first amendment. The first amendment garintees our freedom....

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

[dafydd]

Interesting that you refer to what grandpa did and what others did and stats some government funded lopsided research for. When do we hear your own contribution? What you did for the right to free speech? What you did for grandpa to have the right to keep his musket? Finding fault with a system is easy, showing your own merits may be a bit more of a problem.

To whom r u referring, sparky? It's an excellent question u raise. Can I respond even if it's not me u want?

[æonpax]

The US has about 40,000 killed per year in automobile accidents,
20,000 per year murdered, and 20,000 per year suicides. Total number
killed in attacks (official figure as of 9/5/02): 2,819. That is
roughly ten percent of the suicides or murders.
To say the reaction of the U.S. was disproportionate would be an
understatement. What does the U.S. do to combat suicides? It slashes
budgets for mental health care across the board. People with mental
disorders now go to prisons, instead of mental health care
facilities.
Yes, it was terrible people died in an attack. Even more terrible I
think was our reaction. We threw good lives away after good lives were
lost. And we did it out of fear. The fear was exaggerated by our own
leaders using the media and politics.
Seems terrorism won the war from day one. I do not require a response
for this post. If you read it and think a little bit, that is thanks
or cursing enough.{snip}
`

Terrorism does win. A myriad of different reasons;



1) The “fear factor” being pushed by the political right-wing in the US both from the politicians and pundits. Fear of those “different from you”, fear of the Islamic faith, fear of Middle Easterners, fear of Latino’s, fear of women, fear of change, fear of homosexuals, fear of knowledge & education…to name a few.

2) The “fear factor” being pushed by corporate media…it sells.

3) The “fear factor” as being sold by some religions now. “End Time”, “Anti-Christ”, “rapture” and Second Coming by using current events to sell their faith to an anxiety filled people, uncertain of the future.

3) Misinformed and wholly uneducated Americans.

4) Our Civil Rights and our very liberty are being eroded and stripped away by other political parties in the name of so-called “National interest” and safety.

5) The fearful are banging on the drums of war which will only end up costing Americans in lives and suffering and end up enriching the corporations and politicians. The more we seek to repress those we fear, the larger our list of enemies grows and with it, the cost of innocent lives in those countries skyrockets.


`

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”

`
http://i.imgur.com/z09Bs.jpg

[void()]

Interesting that you refer to what grandpa did and what others did and stats some government funded lopsided research for. When do we hear your own contribution? What you did for the right to free speech? What you did for grandpa to have the right to keep his musket? Finding fault with a system is easy, showing your own merits may be a bit more of a problem.

Fair enough criticism.

It is a problem because I have never been one to feel a need to blow my own trumpet. Besides that I can admit in the grander scheme of things I have not done much at all. I did enlist voluntarily in the Navy and had every intention of serving twenty to life. Unfortunately, according to the discharge papers, general, I was not properly educated.

I love my wife and family. Don't abuse drugs or booze despite having both in my family blood. I restrain myself a great deal here out of tolerance. As I said, capable of admitting to not doing much. I don't think that decreases the value of what I do, or have done. Nor does it infer I can not have and voice an opinion.

[Jason0012]

I had no intention of attacking gun rights, I just dont see why 2nd amendment should seem more important than the others. I would be a very difficult person to prevent from owning firearms. I have a lathe and I know how to use it! I am far more concerned by the fact that I am no longer garunteed all the other constitutional protections I always just expected.
No I have never stood up a tyranical government. I am not sure, under what conditions in the past I was supposed too? How would that work? I vote, I have petioned my representatives for change of policy, I have participated in our system. I just am not convinced that our government is controled by people any longer. The corporate take over is something I find very baffling as it has few parallels in history.

[dafydd]

Fair enough criticism.

It is a problem because I have never been one to feel a need to blow my own trumpet. Besides that I can admit in the grander scheme of things I have not done much at all. I did enlist voluntarily in the Navy and had every intention of serving twenty to life. Unfortunately, according to the discharge papers, general, I was not properly educated.

I love my wife and family. Don't abuse drugs or booze despite having both in my family blood. I restrain myself a great deal here out of tolerance. As I said, capable of admitting to not doing much. I don't think that decreases the value of what I do, or have done. Nor does it infer I can not have and voice an opinion.

actually upon reflection Void, its not fair criticism of your OP, which was totally valid and you shouldn't have to reconsider. Freedom of speech means u can do just that...say what u want..when u want...within the law.
This first commandment thing of yours in the US , is surely about being ABLE to criticise the government/rulling incumbants/policies etc that you feel aren't working. It should be a matter of DAILY public discourse...without having to constantly preface such criticism with your freedom fighter resume or you're listed not 'qualified' to talk.

Publicly criticising your own government is the 1st commandent enacted, and in itself one of the most powerful ways of promoting free speech. Vox populi in democracies are there to find fault with their governments, to challenge and question, so as to catalyse progressive change.

so then invalidating the OP's criticism Welickit..isn't that the point where you model/follow your own point of view and show *your* resume/evidence of fight/authority signed authorisation to criticise the authority?

I mean...if you criticise a man for *not* evidencing his activities to promote free speech...you need to evidence you're activities that promote free speech.
Because now I might ask you your own question "What you did for the right to free speech?" but add "... apart from advising someone publicly that they have no right to free speech."

aren't you in effect evidence of you're own critcisim?

in recent news..... (re: Oakland 7 dead etc...)
clearly any society/government that sanctions the buying of guns by CRAZY/MURDEROUS/INSANE members of its population.... is CRAZY/INSANE and needs critcism. id even call for a revolution. the French and Russians were way ahead of you.

d

[Doggie_Wood]

FYI - for reference to what all here have been refering to: Constitutional Amendments, I thru X

Note: The following text is a transcription of the first ten amendments to the Constitution in their original form. These amendments were ratified December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights."

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.



(ref: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/print_friendly.html?page=bill_of_rights_transcript _content.html&title=The%20Bill%20of%20Rights%3A%20A%20Transcript ion )

The first ten amendments make up what we in America call "The Bill of Rights".
Although all ten are equally important in their own respect, Amendment IX is one that I feel our government abuses the most. (IMHO)

Doggie :doggie:

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

Thank You Dogwood. Not everyone knows "The Bill of Rights". But whats even more shocking, is that most people don't even know what the preamble is....

[elian]

Wait, they're planning to take over the world with techno!? ..geesh, and I thought that Disney boy bands were bad...

[pepperjack]

`

Terrorism does win. A myriad of different reasons;


1) The “fear factor” being pushed by the political right-wing in the US both from the politicians and pundits. Fear of those “different from you”, fear of the Islamic faith, fear of Middle Easterners, fear of Latino’s, fear of women, fear of change, fear of homosexuals, fear of knowledge & education…to name a few.

2) The “fear factor” being pushed by corporate media…it sells.

3) The “fear factor” as being sold by some religions now. “End Time”, “Anti-Christ”, “rapture” and Second Coming by using current events to sell their faith to an anxiety filled people, uncertain of the future.

3) Misinformed and wholly uneducated Americans.

4) Our Civil Rights and our very liberty are being eroded and stripped away by other political parties in the name of so-called “National interest” and safety.

5) The fearful are banging on the drums of war which will only end up costing Americans in lives and suffering and end up enriching the corporations and politicians. The more we seek to repress those we fear, the larger our list of enemies grows and with it, the cost of innocent lives in those countries skyrockets.


`

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”

`
http://i.imgur.com/z09Bs.jpg





So, terrorism is triumphant because all those mentioned here are complicit in its success? I sense an attitude of resignation, defeatism.What's the solution? Let's all just throw down our arms and "give peace a chance?" How long has that pipe dream been going on now? War being propagated by the fearful? How about the courageous, those concerned with self-preservation, trying to protect the freedoms you're lamenting the loss of? And weren't you promoting fear when you declared Rick Santorum "dangerous?"

[tenni]

So, terrorism is triumphant because all those mentioned here are complicit in its success? I sense an attitude of resignation, defeatism.What's the solution? Let's all just throw down our arms and "give peace a chance?" How long has that pipe dream been going on now? War being propagated by the fearful? How about the courageous, those concerned with self-preservation, trying to protect the freedoms you're lamenting the loss of? And weren't you promoting fear when you declared Rick Santorum "dangerous?"

omg
There are several things that people in your country could do.

1/ drastically reduce the number of US military outposts of varying degrees would be a good start to show the world that the US is not going to try to impose its will on the rest of the nations. A good place to start is the middle east. Take a good look at a map that shows how you have military installations under the pretense of protecting yourself.
2/ Reduce your military spending in creating more and more weapons of mass destruction. You don't need them. You've been lied to.
3/ Stop thinking that you are free. You're not any freer than any other western nation. Don't worry about it so much and reject your government's use of fear to control you.

5008

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

So, terrorism is triumphant because all those mentioned here are complicit in its success? I sense an attitude of resignation, defeatism.What's the solution? Let's all just throw down our arms and "give peace a chance?" How long has that pipe dream been going on now? War being propagated by the fearful? How about the courageous, those concerned with self-preservation, trying to protect the freedoms you're lamenting the loss of? And weren't you promoting fear when you declared Rick Santorum "dangerous?"

You have been watching to much FOX NEWS. I'm sorry if this sounds rude or condescending but to believe we are fighting for our freedom. You must not have lost anyone who is fighting over there. We are only over in the Middle East for one resin. OIL!!! The people that created the deep hatred the Middle East has for the west are all dead and in the ground. But there company's and legacies of greed still live on. Do some research on the history of a company called Standard Oil. The abuse that an American owned oil company committed against Saudi Arabia and most of the other countries in the Middle East. They forced the countries to form (O.P.E.C.) I think in the 1960's. This is not a history that's been berried. But all the people that think we are now fighting for our FREEDOM!! Have not learned the history of our country.

I served our country. I lost friends in 9/11. I believe in justice. I also have a mind of my own and the freedom to use it. Not one of the hijackers were from Iraq so tell me why my friends had to die there? What freedoms of yours did they die protecting? We are fighting a war agents a word. Bring our sons and daughters home. The way we fight terror is to not Give our liberty's away to feel safe.

For anyone who has lost someone on 9/11 or in the wars that fallowed. I truly believe they died patriots, and should never be forgotten. Support out troops by bringing them home....

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

tenni, I'm sorry to tell you. But Canada is not innocent in the Middle Easts war on the West. Esso and Imperial Oil, have there fare share of the blame. Canada's foreign police's may not insult the rest of the world. Im not naive in thinking ours doesn't. But if you fallow the history of Imperial Oil and Esso. You will find greed as well. I'm just making sure that you have all the information. There hate for the west is born out of what company's in our country's have done. All of the western country's. Yes that includes the whole of Europe to.

[æonpax]

1) So, terrorism is triumphant because all those mentioned here are complicit in its success?
2) I sense an attitude of resignation, defeatism.
3) What's the solution?
4) Let's all just throw down our arms and "give peace a chance?"
5) How long has that pipe dream been going on now?
6) War being propagated by the fearful?
7) How about the courageous, those concerned with self-preservation, trying to protect the freedoms you're lamenting the loss of?
8) And weren't you promoting fear when you declared Rick Santorum "dangerous?"


1) Yes. One of the main goals of terrorism is strike fear among people. To those folks I articulated in my post, yes, it has succeeded. “Those folk” happen to be the right wing in the US.

2) What you sense is in error. By pointing out the conditions which have contributed to this fear, I am exposing the political and ideological components whom have aided our enemies by spreading this fear.

3) Don’t allow the corporations and political right-wing to run our lives sans the liberties and freedoms this country stands for. The US right again, has shown their hypocrisy. The “theo-teapublicans” on one hand scream against big government and at the same time are allowing government to usurp our freedoms, rights and liberties in the nane of safety.

4) Where did that come from? You are reading way too much into my reply, aside from the fact that your reply points you out as being someone stuck using 1960’s clichés.

5) You are asking the wrong the person. All I’ve seen in my short life here, is useless and senseless wars being propagated by the US for the profit of US corporations.

6) The criminal George Bush lied to a country using fear of WMD’s that never existed, as a pretext for an immoral invasion of Iran. Obama uses from vague, ill-defined threat to out safety at home to continue occupying Afghanistan where the people neither want or desire us to stay. Now the war drums are beating again in regards to Iran and their unproven nuclear strike capabilities, not so much against the US but or so-called ally, the economic parasite that is Israel.

7) “Fools rush blindly where angels fear to tread” Misguided courage, coupled with extremist ideology and misinformation is a poor and inadequate substitute for a principled response to perceived threats to this nation.

8) Metaphorically, he is a danger, to all minorities, women, the poor, homosexuals and freedom loving people not wishing to live in his version a theocratic US government.

[æonpax]

`
This picture gives a perspective of what the US has been up to for the last 20 years. The flag represents a country where we have military bases.
`
`


http://i.imgur.com/J8tNM.jpg

[elian]

Yeah, but the map probably wouldn't even look like that if it weren't for Britain... Historically institutions have done a lot of wicked things eh?

[darkeyes]

Far be it for me to approve of terrorism, for I do not and never have.. but most people in this country always have, at least since the 1940s.. the US too.. Canada, Australia and NZ.. France, Italy and elsewhere as long as it's their side doing the terrorism.. and I don't mean militarily caused terrorism I have mentioned several times over the years.. what for instance did the allies encourage throughout Europe and Asia in WW2 in support of their cause? The UK's SOE and the OSS of the US exported just that throughout Europe.. and our countries intelligence services have done it ever since.. but then those who terrorise on "our behalf" sanctioned by our governments are not really terrorists are they? Only those that do the same thing in opposition to them..

[pepperjack]

1) Yes. One of the main goals of terrorism is strike fear among people. To those folks I articulated in my post, yes, it has succeeded. “Those folk” happen to be the right wing in the US.

2) What you sense is in error. By pointing out the conditions which have contributed to this fear, I am exposing the political and ideological components whom have aided our enemies by spreading this fear.

3) Don’t allow the corporations and political right-wing to run our lives sans the liberties and freedoms this country stands for. The US right again, has shown their hypocrisy. The “theo-teapublicans” on one hand scream against big government and at the same time are allowing government to usurp our freedoms, rights and liberties in the nane of safety.

4) Where did that come from? You are reading way too much into my reply, aside from the fact that your reply points you out as being someone stuck using 1960’s clichés.

5) You are asking the wrong the person. All I’ve seen in my short life here, is useless and senseless wars being propagated by the US for the profit of US corporations.

6) The criminal George Bush lied to a country using fear of WMD’s that never existed, as a pretext for an immoral invasion of Iran. Obama uses from vague, ill-defined threat to out safety at home to continue occupying Afghanistan where the people neither want or desire us to stay. Now the war drums are beating again in regards to Iran and their unproven nuclear strike capabilities, not so much against the US but or so-called ally, the economic parasite that is Israel.

7) “Fools rush blindly where angels fear to tread” Misguided courage, coupled with extremist ideology and misinformation is a poor and inadequate substitute for a principled response to perceived threats to this nation.

8) Metaphorically, he is a danger, to all minorities, women, the poor, homosexuals and freedom loving people not wishing to live in his version a theocratic US government.



I'm aware & completely agree that terrorism is about instilling fear. I guess that I did misinterpret some of what you said. But then, only the Republicans & the right wing are guilty of promoting your "fear-factor?" Seems like a biased & lopsided perspective to me. And since you mentioned religion as also playing a part, here's part of my perspective: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. ( Matthew 24;6 ) Fearmongering?

[pepperjack]

You have been watching to much FOX NEWS. I'm sorry if this sounds rude or condescending but to believe we are fighting for our freedom. You must not have lost anyone who is fighting over there. We are only over in the Middle East for one resin. OIL!!! The people that created the deep hatred the Middle East has for the west are all dead and in the ground. But there company's and legacies of greed still live on. Do some research on the history of a company called Standard Oil. The abuse that an American owned oil company committed against Saudi Arabia and most of the other countries in the Middle East. They forced the countries to form (O.P.E.C.) I think in the 1960's. This is not a history that's been berried. But all the people that think we are now fighting for our FREEDOM!! Have not learned the history of our country.

I served our country. I lost friends in 9/11. I believe in justice. I also have a mind of my own and the freedom to use it. Not one of the hijackers were from Iraq so tell me why my friends had to die there? What freedoms of yours did they die protecting? We are fighting a war agents a word. Bring our sons and daughters home. The way we fight terror is to not Give our liberty's away to feel safe.

For anyone who has lost someone on 9/11 or in the wars that fallowed. I truly believe they died patriots, and should never be forgotten. Support out troops by bringing them home....


I think oil in that part of the world & how it affects the world market is only part of the reason. From what I've learned, we have plenty under our own soil but it's hindered from being tapped; politics. The "deep hatred" you refer to goes back centuries, the hatred Islam has for Christianity, long before oil became the leverage it is today. Oh,those poor, abused,filthy rich Arab oil sheiks whose lifestyles make Donald Trump appear middle-class! Don't get me wrong here. I've had firsthand experiences with American corporate greed & definitely have resentments. When I used the word courageous I was referring to people such as your fallen comrades. Are you saying they were brainwashed, dying for the greed for oil? I can remember news coverage when most of the country was tired of Bush, hating him and yet many if not most of the deployed were loyal to their Commander-in-Chief, maybe ambivalent,yet believing in their cause. Lincoln was equally despised by the nation during the Civil War. Maybe Bush just bought the lie through CIA intel that Saddam Hussein wanted the world to believe, that he had WMSD's,because he thought the propaganda would deter his neighbor, Iran,from attacking him?

[æonpax]

I'm aware & completely agree that terrorism is about instilling fear. I guess that I did misinterpret some of what you said. But then, only the Republicans & the right wing are guilty of promoting your "fear-factor?" Seems like a biased & lopsided perspective to me. And since you mentioned religion as also playing a part, here's part of my perspective: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. ( Matthew 24;6 ) Fearmongering?
`

I must admit, in my response I vilified the "right" too much leaving out Obama and the Democrats who are as guilty as the right/GOP regarding the lie and farce known as the "War On Terror". Obama is nothing more than Bush II.

As I said, some religions are using "current events" to foster this fear to their own benefits. These Christian eschatologists are having a field day tying to push a war with Iran, to protect Israel as the book of Revelations supposedly reveals. I for one do not want one drop of US blood shed over them.

[void()]

In the original post I was aiming with buckshot. Politicians and leaders have done this. Ultimately, we gave them power to do so. Non-voters like myself are included in giving over this power.

Still refuse to vote. The system was broken long before my refusal to play. Will stay broke even if I do play. When you start with nothing, may as well figure you stay with nothing.

And no that is not nihilistic. It is merely being accepting of what is and will be. For me, acceptance is a means to cope with living. May not always like, or have a choice regarding something. If I accept it, no need to dwell upon it.

Other people might call that tolerance. Mine is wearing thin. There needs to be change. And I hope we do not have a revolution. Revolution implies a cyclic solution, we'll come back around to the same problems.

We need an evolution, a rising above and dealing wholly and fully with the problems, so we are over them forever. I do not see any current political, religious, social persona calling for such in our near future. Okay, cue up Steppenwolf's Magic Carpet Ride. :)

That's me tunning out. C'ya.

[elian]

Yeah, but the thing is, although Israel is a "small" country they are in no way as "weak" as they once were coming out of WW II - they have some of the BEST military hardware in the world, very good training and more importantly some of the conservative positions are incredibly stubborn. So much so that when the Palestinians finally want to sit down to talk about peace the Israelis start blowing things up.

If you want peace, you want peace - don't claim that you do and waste everyone's time if it's not true. They ought to make the holy land neutral territory that NO ONE can take residence in - unfortunately that would just tear even more lives apart from what likely started the whole damn thing. Good job Britain (?) for keeping that area of the world divided so they could fight amongst themselves for 50 years..?

I don't mind any religion that is moderate, once you start in on fundementalist ideology that infringes on the basic human rights of other people, that's the stuff I worry about because it is too easy to make a leap on faith alone, devoid of reason..we need both.

I will still vote because many people sacrificed their lives for our country and it is one of its most sacred institutions, but I still don't think we have the right mix of government + private initiative no matter which party is in office.

Both parties bash each other over the head and then keep on spending anyway - it seems what they argue about most isn't the spending - but what to spend it on. Democrats want to spend it on social programs, Republicans want to spend it on industry.

We have no money, mostly because of the war and screwed up financial policy - if we had some we could institute another large public works program to help laborers, industry AND society by rebuilding 60-100 year old infrastructure that in some cases is literally falling apart.

[æonpax]

In the original post I was aiming with buckshot. 1) Politicians and leaders have done this. Ultimately, we gave them power to do so. Non-voters like myself are included in giving over this power.

2) Still refuse to vote. The system was broken long before my refusal to play. Will stay broke even if I do play. When you start with nothing, may as well figure you stay with nothing.

3) And no that is not nihilistic. It is merely being accepting of what is and will be. For me, acceptance is a means to cope with living. May not always like, or have a choice regarding something. If I accept it, no need to dwell upon it.

Other people might call that tolerance. Mine is wearing thin. There needs to be change. 4) And I hope we do not have a revolution. Revolution implies a cyclic solution, we'll come back around to the same problems.

We need an evolution, a rising above and dealing wholly and fully with the problems, so we are over them forever. I do not see any current political, religious, social persona calling for such in our near future. Okay, cue up Steppenwolf's Magic Carpet Ride. :)

That's me tunning out. C'ya.
`

1) "We have met the enemy and they are us."

2) I'm not voting for Obama in 2012 and voting for any of the clowns still left in the GOP tent, is akin to suicide. I'm writing in "Elizabeth Warren."

3) Not so much a nihilist as a hard core cynic. Welcome to the club. Oh, maybe your just a closet stoic.

4) The rot in politics and corporatism runs long and deep. Revolution, is a logical option but however attractive it appears, it perhaps is too much, too little, too late. It only replaces one form of evil with another. Nothing short of a world-wide natural disaster of catastrophic nature will work now...teach us humans the lesson, work together and survive or become extinct.

[void()]

`

1) "We have met the enemy and they are us."

2) I'm not voting for Obama in 2012 and voting for any of the clowns still left in the GOP tent, is akin to suicide. I'm writing in "Elizabeth Warren."

3) Not so much a nihilist as a hard core cynic. Welcome to the club. Oh, maybe your just a closet stoic.

4) The rot in politics and corporatism runs long and deep. Revolution, is a logical option but however attractive it appears, it perhaps is too much, too little, too late. It only replaces one form of evil with another. Nothing short of a world-wide natural disaster of catastrophic nature will work now...teach us humans the lesson, work together and survive or become extinct.

1. Pogo was always funny.

2. May write in the following people myself. Earl Warrick, Harvey Chin, James Wright, these people have all been attributed with inventing what I consider the other (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silly_Putty) universal substance. Might even write in Mr. Rogers.

3. Hush child, you'll blow my cover. There may be many things you can blow, my cover isn't one of them. :)

4. *nods* No wonder I prefer keeping rum on hand. I know it does not solve a thing. It is legal and helps me relax a bit at times. I know, silly to use a depressant when depressed. Call it family tradition. Besides, I am not one who is induced to excess with the indulgence. Moderation even in moderation.

I once got a full three sheets to the wind. It happened to be an anniversary of a sub being put down. That clicked in my mind. As a sailor, my verbosity ran amuck. My wife tapped a spoon something metallic, producing a quaint if all but displeasing knell.

"Last call sailor. You'll finish that drink and march your ass to bed! Do I make myself clear!"

I sat there with a dumbfounded look on my face. "Yes mam!" And I did exactly as ordered. Two days later she related that I had cursed her for not manning a bilge. After being told I recalled it. So, I am now apt to be mindful of spirits.

Sometimes wish I was not such a pookie.

[tenni]

This article presents an interesting perspective on terrorism and life.

"Today, the meaning of this photograph has nothing to do with judging individuals. It has become a picture about history, and about memory. As an image of a cataclysmic historical moment it captures something that is true of all historical moments: life does not stop dead because a battle or an act of terror is happening nearby. Artists and writers have told this truth down the ages."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/02/911-photo-thomas-hoepker-meaning?fb_action_ids=10150789150300465%2C10150765 932011999&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline

5022

[jamieknyc]

Far be it for me to approve of terrorism, for I do not and never have.. but most people in this country always have, at least since the 1940s.. the US too.. Canada, Australia and NZ.. France, Italy and elsewhere as long as it's their side doing the terrorism.. and I don't mean militarily caused terrorism I have mentioned several times over the years.. what for instance did the allies encourage throughout Europe and Asia in WW2 in support of their cause? The UK's SOE and the OSS of the US exported just that throughout Europe.. and our countries intelligence services have done it ever since.. but then those who terrorise on "our behalf" sanctioned by our governments are not really terrorists are they? Only those that do the same thing in opposition to them..

...and in the capital city of your country, there are security cameras everywhere except in the 'loo' because everyone has been batshit-scared of being blown up by the IRA for the past fifty years.

[darkeyes]

...and in the capital city of your country, there are security cameras everywhere except in the 'loo' because everyone has been batshit-scared of being blown up by the IRA for the past fifty years.Tsk Tsk Jamie... govts have been trying 2 make us scared an have allowed cams 2 b installed all ova the place "2 fight crime" so they tell us.. we not all that scared an most dont like the proliferation of the bloody things.. not 2 much bat shittin goin on believe me.. but if it suitsya purpose 2 say so... put it this way.. we r a lot less paranoid bout terrorism than peeps in the US seem 2 b... but then I would say that.. o yea.. an so do American chums who live here an nip back home regularly 2 visit family... 2 at least stay here an raise ther kids because of the lack of paranoia in fact and the more laid back lifestyle.. but ther ya r... horses for courses huh? But Kate, me an the kids will b over ur way in July for a few weeks so will find out for oursel's wont we?;)

[jamieknyc]

dunno, Fran, when they had the recent riots in London, the British posters on here were going nuts over something that Americans would just have shrugged off. And I suspect you would have done the same if it was in Edinburgh rather than at a safe distance in London.

[darkeyes]

dunno, Fran, when they had the recent riots in London, the British posters on here were going nuts over something that Americans would just have shrugged off. And I suspect you would have done the same if it was in Edinburgh rather than at a safe distance in London.
U were talking terrorism Jamie.. course peeps wer concerned bout the riots an ther wos a rite hoo hah bout them.. its only natural when summat like the riots happen.. seen quite a bit of activity in chat and elsewhere throughout the web bout riots in the US over the years so am not sure peeps shrug it off quite as u say.. 2 some degree u do have a point.. Edinburgh is a long way away from when the riots too place... peeps in America usually r even farther away when ya consider the size of the place compared 2 here.. am not trying 2 make out Brits r ne more stoical than ne 1 else.. am saying that ur post made us seem 2 b much more scared of shite happenin' than in fact we r...

..vis a vis terrorism.. I do think we r a lot less paranoid and more laid back bout it than the average American.. not saying our govt is.. it keeps crankin' up the fear factor and personally I think it is doin' far more harm than good.. peeps r wary.. but paranoid they r not...

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

I think oil in that part of the world & how it affects the world market is only part of the reason. From what I've learned, we have plenty under our own soil but it's hindered from being tapped; politics. The "deep hatred" you refer to goes back centuries, the hatred Islam has for Christianity, long before oil became the leverage it is today. Oh,those poor, abused,filthy rich Arab oil sheiks whose lifestyles make Donald Trump appear middle-class! Don't get me wrong here. I've had firsthand experiences with American corporate greed & definitely have resentments. When I used the word courageous I was referring to people such as your fallen comrades. Are you saying they were brainwashed, dying for the greed for oil? I can remember news coverage when most of the country was tired of Bush, hating him and yet many if not most of the deployed were loyal to their Commander-in-Chief, maybe ambivalent,yet believing in their cause. Lincoln was equally despised by the nation during the Civil War. Maybe Bush just bought the lie through CIA intel that Saddam Hussein wanted the world to believe, that he had WMSD's,because he thought the propaganda would deter his neighbor, Iran,from attacking him?

I have never once said anything remotely close to brainwashed. When you start a sentence "Are you saying" That is a cheep way of changing the meaning of what ever it is you dislike. Out troops were asked to go to war. And that is what they did. The troops dont get to ask why are we going? Your commander says go, you go. That is how the military works. Yes there has been hatred for centuries between Islam and Christianity. Religion is the oldest and greatest excuse to go to war. Seeing as religion isnt as profitable as oil. I dont think we would be in a war on terror if there was no oil there. The "filthy rich Arab oil sheiks" as you put it. They are not the ones that go to war and die for Islam. They pay the poor to do that for them. Thats how it works here in the U.S. as well. The rich starts the wars, and we get sent to fight them. So I really don't care about any sheiks. But you take from the rich and that's how wars start. Even the revolutionary war and the birth of our country, was a bunch of rich land owners that got sick of being pushed around.

As for the myth of all the oil America has that we don't use. Do you really think we could stop big oil from drilling it? They got Bush to start 2 wars. I think they could get drilling rights if they could make a profit.

[darkeyes]

I have never once said anything remotely close to brainwashed. When you start a sentence "Are you saying" That is a cheep way of changing the meaning of what ever it is you dislike. Out troops were asked to go to war. And that is what they did. The troops dont get to ask why are we going? Your commander says go, you go. That is how the military works. Yes there has been hatred for centuries between Islam and Christianity. Religion is the oldest and greatest excuse to go to war. Seeing as religion isnt as profitable as oil. I dont think we would be in a war on terror if there was no oil there. The "filthy rich Arab oil sheiks" as you put it. They are not the ones that go to war and die for Islam. They pay the poor to do that for them. Thats how it works here in the U.S. as well. The rich starts the wars, and we get sent to fight them. So I really don't care about any sheiks. But you take from the rich and that's how wars start. Even the revolutionary war and the birth of our country, was a bunch of rich land owners that got sick of being pushed around.

As for the myth of all the oil America has that we don't use. Do you really think we could stop big oil from drilling it? They got Bush to start 2 wars. I think they could get drilling rights if they could make a profit.
The only quibble I have with this is that ur troops were never asked to go to war.. the generals and admirals and the like were asked their advice but politicians decided, issued the order and off they went... just like British troops and other Nato countries involved did the same... now that's how the military works... the rest? Well, I'm fine with that.. no oil.. no war.. 'cept maybe in respect of Afghanistan.. and that was simply vengeance. Vengeance is never a great thing to go to war over... actually nothing is, and certainly not oil, but then not that many agree with me there, but more than once did mayhap..

[pepperjack]

U were talking terrorism Jamie.. course peeps wer concerned bout the riots an ther wos a rite hoo hah bout them.. its only natural when summat like the riots happen.. seen quite a bit of activity in chat and elsewhere throughout the web bout riots in the US over the years so am not sure peeps shrug it off quite as u say.. 2 some degree u do have a point.. Edinburgh is a long way away from when the riots too place... peeps in America usually r even farther away when ya consider the size of the place compared 2 here.. am not trying 2 make out Brits r ne more stoical than ne 1 else.. am saying that ur post made us seem 2 b much more scared of shite happenin' than in fact we r...

..vis a vis terrorism.. I do think we r a lot less paranoid and more laid back bout it than the average American.. not saying our govt is.. it keeps crankin' up the fear factor and personally I think it is doin' far more harm than good.. peeps r wary.. but paranoid they r not...
There you go again, presuming to speak for people you don't even know. I'm an average American & usually laid back myself. I think the word vigilant is more accurate than paranoid. A number of terrorist plots have been discovered & aborted since 9/11. And isn't a relaxed and unsuspecting posture exactly what terrorists want? That's what really makes them successful. It will be very interesting & probably also amusing to see your observations/comments after visiting our beautiful country this summer.

[darkeyes]

There you go again, presuming to speak for people you don't even know. I'm an average American & usually laid back myself. I think the word vigilant is more accurate than paranoid. A number of terrorist plots have been discovered & aborted since 9/11. And isn't a relaxed and unsuspecting posture exactly what terrorists want? That's what really makes them successful. It will be very interesting & probably also amusing to see your observations/comments after visiting our beautiful country this summer.
I'm getting quite excited Pepper... just hope it will be as good as me m8 tells me it will... I'll letya know!! Re vigilance v paranoia.. well.. I'll soon find out hey?

[pepperjack]

I'm getting quite excited Pepper... just hope it will be as good as me m8 tells me it will... I'll letya know!! Re vigilance v paranoia.. well.. I'll soon find out hey?

Just don't let the TSA shape your opinions too much upon arrival.:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

`

1) "We have met the enemy and they are us."

2) I'm not voting for Obama in 2012 and voting for any of the clowns still left in the GOP tent, is akin to suicide. I'm writing in "Elizabeth Warren."

3) Not so much a nihilist as a hard core cynic. Welcome to the club. Oh, maybe your just a closet stoic.

4) The rot in politics and corporatism runs long and deep. Revolution, is a logical option but however attractive it appears, it perhaps is too much, too little, too late. It only replaces one form of evil with another. Nothing short of a world-wide natural disaster of catastrophic nature will work now...teach us humans the lesson, work together and survive or become extinct.


#4 suggests to me once again an attitude of resignation & defeatism. " a world-wide disaster of catastrophic nature." aren't you subtly buying into the message of the eschatologist Christians whom you decry, not to mention the advocates of the Mayan calendar & the significance of this year,whom you failed to mention on your list, thereby contributing to the climate of fear? By dodging my query referencing the Bible scripture, you answered it. Also, referring to someone as dangerous is a pretty straightforward comment and not a metaphor. Finally, it's comments like your last one that brought my outdated cliche of "let's give peace a chance" to remembrance.

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

The only quibble I have with this is that ur troops were never asked to go to war.. the generals and admirals and the like were asked their advice but politicians decided, issued the order and off they went... just like British troops and other Nato countries involved did the same... now that's how the military works... the rest? Well, I'm fine with that.. no oil.. no war.. 'cept maybe in respect of Afghanistan.. and that was simply vengeance. Vengeance is never a great thing to go to war over... actually nothing is, and certainly not oil, but then not that many agree with me there, but more than once did mayhap..

I think you and I are on the same page. The U.S. military is under the control of the civilian government. It has to be such, as to stop the military from gaining to much power. When I say troops. I am not speaking of the top brass i.e. 3 star and above. They cant say no, but they can force congress to sign a declaration of war. Amarica has not officially declared war since WW2. I know how the military works, I lived it for many years. I agree there is never a great resin to go to war. I do believe there are just and honorable resins to go to war. To protect the weak and helpless, to protect your home, and to protect your family. Other then that, there is no resin to use violence. I know Afghanistan may only look like vengeance. Your right there is no oil there. But the terrorist organizations that are there. They get a lot of support from oil rich Arabs. Where do you think Bin Laden got his money? His family is vary rich and they gave his cause millions.

[æonpax]

1) #4 suggests to me once again an attitude of resignation & defeatism.
2) "a world-wide disaster of catastrophic nature." aren't you subtly buying into the message of the eschatologist Christians whom you decry,
3) not to mention the advocates of the Mayan calendar & the significance of this year,whom you failed to mention on your list, thereby contributing to the 3a) climate of fear?
4) By dodging my query referencing the Bible scripture, you answered it.
5) Also, referring to someone as dangerous is a pretty straightforward comment and not a metaphor.
6) Finally, it's comments like your last one that brought my outdated cliche of "let's give peace a chance" to remembrance.
`

1) To me, it was a somewhat clever use of an old idiom. Walt Kelly originally used it to support conservationism.

2) Naw. Earth has faced numerous natural cataclysmic events in it’s history and none of them ended by people floating up in the sky or a kindly old gentleman in a white beard coming down on a cloud.

3) Those who claim the mythical Mayan Calendar that is supposed to predict the dreaded endtime, didn’t take into account our Gregorian calendar’s use of leap year. Do the math. The world would have ended over a decade ago.

3a) There is nothing to fear except fear itself….or maybe Santorum becoming president….that latter being equal to a catastrophe.

4) I thought it was a typo you wrote. At any rate, it didn’t make sense so I bypassed it.

5) My original post you commented on was a metaphor.

6) “Give Peace a Chance” was a song written by John Lennon in 1969 and adopted by the US anti-war moment in the 70’s. Long before my time.


****


Out of curiosity, your point in all of this? I ask because unlike some people in life, I try not to assume when all the facts are not present. As for my opinion, make no mistake about it, I believe the terrorist have won. Allow me to digress…

….”the terrorists have won” is actually a rhetorical phrase used in connection with 9/11. It means to surrender our rights and liberties in trade to live in a secure environment. Fear mongering or spreading a “culture of fear” originally seems to have been domain of the US right wing/GOP and their pundits, such as Rush Limbaugh but has been picked up now by the corporately controlled Barack Obama and the eunuch Democrats.

I do nor fear Islam, Arabs or people whom are different from me and find no reason why our government needs to spy on us, restrict our movement and usurp our constitutional rights in the name of security. To put it in a way that may really confuse you, (and to paraphrase John Milton) “I’d rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven”. This is my way of saying, I’ll take my chances living in a chaotic but free society of liberty knowing full well my safety and that of my loved ones may be compromised than live in a secure cage of government restrictions and false paternalism.

[pepperjack]

I have never once said anything remotely close to brainwashed. When you start a sentence "Are you saying" That is a cheep way of changing the meaning of what ever it is you dislike. Out troops were asked to go to war. And that is what they did. The troops dont get to ask why are we going? Your commander says go, you go. That is how the military works. Yes there has been hatred for centuries between Islam and Christianity. Religion is the oldest and greatest excuse to go to war. Seeing as religion isnt as profitable as oil. I dont think we would be in a war on terror if there was no oil there. The "filthy rich Arab oil sheiks" as you put it. They are not the ones that go to war and die for Islam. They pay the poor to do that for them. Thats how it works here in the U.S. as well. The rich starts the wars, and we get sent to fight them. So I really don't care about any sheiks. But you take from the rich and that's how wars start. Even the revolutionary war and the birth of our country, was a bunch of rich land owners that got sick of being pushed around.

As for the myth of all the oil America has that we don't use. Do you really think we could stop big oil from drilling it? They got Bush to start 2 wars. I think they could get drilling rights if they could make a profit.


There is nothing cheap ( cheep? ) about questioning an ambiguous comment..." so tell me why my friends had to die there." You keep insisting it's all about oil, which I don't believe it was. I know how the military works; I grew up with that mindset, " Your's is not to question why but to do or die!" If you don't care about the rich Arab sheiks, then why did you portray them as abused victims of Standard Oil? Yes, religion isn't as profitable as oil,which is maybe why a former general turned president admonished us to "beware of the military industrial complex." The War to End All Wars taught us that war is profitable. That we have plenty of domestic oil is not a myth, and yes, the Obama administration is doing just that, hindering drilling. And now he's reaping the benefits of the drilling rights issued during the Bush years as if they were his decision. It's obvious you're seriously emotionally conflicted. I watched a very poignant story this evening about a veteran of Iwo Jima who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor; I was very moved; don't assume I don't have a heart,because I do.

[pepperjack]

`
1) To me, it was a somewhat clever use of an old idiom. Walt Kelly originally used it to support conservationism.

2) Naw. Earth has faced numerous natural cataclysmic events in it’s history and none of them ended by people floating up in the sky or a kindly old gentleman in a white beard coming down on a cloud.

3) Those who claim the mythical Mayan Calendar that is supposed to predict the dreaded endtime, didn’t take into account our Gregorian calendar’s use of leap year. Do the math. The world would have ended over a decade ago.

3a) There is nothing to fear except fear itself….or maybe Santorum becoming president….that latter being equal to a catastrophe.

4) I thought it was a typo you wrote. At any rate, it didn’t make sense so I bypassed it.

5) My original post you commented on was a metaphor.

6) “Give Peace a Chance” was a song written by John Lennon in 1969 and adopted by the US anti-war moment in the 70’s. Long before my time.


****


Out of curiosity, your point in all of this? I ask because unlike some people in life, I try not to assume when all the facts are not present. As for my opinion, make no mistake about it, I believe the terrorist have won. Allow me to digress…

….”the terrorists have won” is actually a rhetorical phrase used in connection with 9/11. It means to surrender our rights and liberties in trade to live in a secure environment. Fear mongering or spreading a “culture of fear” originally seems to have been domain of the US right wing/GOP and their pundits, such as Rush Limbaugh but has been picked up now by the corporately controlled Barack Obama and the eunuch Democrats.

I do nor fear Islam, Arabs or people whom are different from me and find no reason why our government needs to spy on us, restrict our movement and usurp our constitutional rights in the name of security. To put it in a way that may really confuse you, (and to paraphrase John Milton) “I’d rather rule in hell, than serve in heaven”. This is my way of saying, I’ll take my chances living in a chaotic but free society of liberty knowing full well my safety and that of my loved ones may be compromised than live in a secure cage of government restrictions and false paternalism.


I'm not confused at all by that quote which I am familiar with. "Out of curiosity" my point in all of this is to rebut your argument. As Drew says, "argue & enlighten." By your own admission, you pride yourself in your debating skills, consider yourself "good at what you do." Yes, you're smart....I've complimented you on your intelligence a couple of times,but that doesn't mean you don't trip up occasionally. You're very good at sidestepping & obscuring issues the way politicians do.

[pepperjack]

The "War on Terror" along with most of the other "wars" that we Americans fight---are pretty much designed to distract and divide Americans from realizing and focusing their ire against those who are conducting--the real war being waged that is against our freedoms and the sort of prosperity and advancement experienced the last roughly 100 years or so, by the vast majority of the population.

Does anyone know what the VietNam war was really all about? It was about N. Vietnam coveting the rice paddies of S. VietNam, a simple staple representing billions of dollars in trade; and then the machinations of communism entered in.

[æonpax]

1) I'm not confused at all by that quote which I am familiar with. 2) "Out of curiosity" my point in all of this is to rebut your argument. As Drew says, "argue & enlighten." By your own admission, you pride yourself in your debating skills, consider yourself "good at what you do." Yes, you're smart....I've complimented you on your intelligence a couple of times,but that doesn't mean you don't trip up occasionally. 4)
You're very good at sidestepping & obscuring issues the way politicians do.

1) T'wood seem different to me but anyways....

2) Sounds logical.

3) "by my own admission" you state I have said that I pride myself in being a good debater? I'll give you a few days to to look the the posts here and quote where I said that. I have said I "enjoy" a good argument, especially one that can find bona fide weaknesses in my opinions or facts. I'll admit when I'm wrong and have been known to change my mind on things following a good argument using strong facts and logic, but I don't ever think I said I'm good at it, much less prideful. My teachers would not have agreed with you

4) You mean like asking people for facts and sources to confirm and substantiate their allegations? For that, I am guilty as changed.

There was a time I was extremely illegal anti-immigration, especially those from Mexico. As it happened, I was arguing this topic with a gentleman from Mexico for about a month. He was defensive on the issue and I was pretty Draconian. One day, just using pure logic, he got me not only to change my mind but my whole attitude about the "illegal" question. For those looking at our interplay as a win/lose game, he won, I lost and the wise-ass, mighty Joan failed. In truth, however, I won too...but on a personal level. So simple yet so persuasive was his logical argument, it changed my outlook on things beyond just the academic. It took some time for the folks in that forum to see a new tag-team emerge that championed the human rights of the illegal Mexican (or Latino) in the US. This is what I carve...knowledge.

If you want to argue form over substance, have at it. I may indulge you just to amuse myself for the time being. Be forewarned though, political and sociological ideology is one thing. Elevating it to a level of blind faith, another. For example, when people quote from a book many consider NOT to be an absolute truism, you've already drawn a hard line. Many of faith believe in certain things so strongly that they would die for them. When that happens, it ceases to be an academic argument or discussion and becomes an exercise in futility. I have no wish to prove you are wrong nor assert that I'm right, especially in matters of faith. That's your business, just keep it from interfering with my rights as citizen. Capiche?

[darkeyes]

Does anyone know what the VietNam war was really all about? It was about N. Vietnam coveting the rice paddies of S. VietNam, a simple staple representing billions of dollars in trade; and then the machinations of communism entered in.
Actually Pepper it wasn't... it was a war for the reunification of Vietnam which had been forcibly partitioned in 1954 as a temporary measure aimed at preventing the communists under Ho Chi Minh from having the whole country. Diem, when he gained power in the south refused to negotiate with the north regarding national elections which had been agreed at a conference in Geneva. This refusal eventually led to the war which had simmered since 1955 breaking out in earnest in 1959. Of course the reasons are far more varied and deep rooted and even the elections issue is an over simplification, but that was a fundamental issue which was primarily resonsible for the outbreak of much more serious warfare in the country.. it was not about coveting rice paddies.. it was a battle of one group of ruthless and powerful men to dominate and if necessary destroy the holdings of another and sacrificing millions (about 6 millions I believe) at the altar of pursuit and retention of wealth and of power..

My political sympathies may have been with the north, but I would much rather have seen the country remain partitioned and two separate nations live in peace with each other and work for mutual prosperity than the loss of one single life in pursuit of reunification.. what a fucking waste when it need never have been..

[void()]

A number of terrorist plots have been discovered & aborted since 9/11.

As far as I know, there have only been eight significant threats. The rest were simply wild hairs based upon rumor. The rumors were still followed up just to be sure.


That we have plenty of domestic oil is not a myth, and yes, the Obama administration is doing just that, hindering drilling.

You may consider reading this (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9085?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed: theoildrum (The Oil Drum)) to better acquaint yourself with oil in America. It helps in clarifying definitions regarding oil.


#4 suggests to me once again an attitude of resignation & defeatism.

It could also been seen as acceptance or tolerance. For some people these are used as a means of coping with life. You may claim that your method of having faith in God works better.

May I ask if you have considered the fatalism in that belief? You live to be tested supposedly. Once you die, you can be judged worthy or not.

If you are judged worthy then you can look forward to an eternity of praising God on your knees. So, you grovel like a dog and toil just to grovel and toil all the more? You suffer all life throws at you simply to play a round of glorified kiss ass?

That seems pretty defeating to me. We are human and desire to face adversity to find solutions. We have been conditioned by our environment to adapt in order to live. Suddenly upon death we can settle into a paradise or hell without change?

Calling that boring would be an understatement. If that is your idea of heaven, please keep it. You argue for vastly nhilistic and fetal reward in my opinion.

Why do you even need rewards for being a good person? Can you not just be a good person because it feels right, might be the right thing to do? Being a good person for the sake of being a good person is not possible without your brand of religion, or any religion?

All religions seem to promote a grand reward for being a good person. You keep injecting Christianity. Is it not clear no one desires being converted? There are local churches if we desire conversion.

Stop selling lemons and people might feel like inviting you to dinner. As it is we see you telling us that you think everyone absolutely must eat your lemons for dinner. Sorry, I rather eat beans and rice. Some might like pork and biscuits. Others may like duck and gravy with a side of salad.

That last paragraph is a metaphor. I am comparing religions to dinners. Other people far wiser than I have done the same. Jesus to name one refers to wisdom as meat.

If you can not understand my use of metaphor, please have a friend explain it. And no I'm not belittling you for not being able to understand. It can be difficult to do at times.

As evidenced, I myself have difficulty understanding what people write at times. This is why I asked for help. The editorial board is letting me have a bit of free reign in this post. They agree your arguments regarding being a good person are ambigious at best.

I would rather we communicate clearly. If you need help understanding, there is no shame in asking for it. Better to understand than not and miscommunicate.

[welickit]

Terrorism may win but we like to send our own message. We send it from the front yard so anyone passing by gets the message.

5108

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

There is nothing cheap ( cheep? ) about questioning an ambiguous comment..." so tell me why my friends had to die there." You keep insisting it's all about oil, which I don't believe it was. I know how the military works; I grew up with that mindset, " Your's is not to question why but to do or die!" If you don't care about the rich Arab sheiks, then why did you portray them as abused victims of Standard Oil? Yes, religion isn't as profitable as oil,which is maybe why a former general turned president admonished us to "beware of the military industrial complex." The War to End All Wars taught us that war is profitable. That we have plenty of domestic oil is not a myth, and yes, the Obama administration is doing just that, hindering drilling. And now he's reaping the benefits of the drilling rights issued during the Bush years as if they were his decision. It's obvious you're seriously emotionally conflicted. I watched a very poignant story this evening about a veteran of Iwo Jima who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor; I was very moved; don't assume I don't have a heart,because I do.

Tell me why my friends had to die there? Is not ambiguous. I truly want to know the real resin why they where there fighting. Its not for our freedom. Yes I am conflicted. I cant see how any American can not be. Our brothers and sisters are on the other side of the earth fighting in a war with no true benchmark for victory. To support them and pray for them to come home safe. But at the same time not agreeing with what there fighting for. Yes I am conflicted.

I dont know of any drilling projects that Obama's administration has hindered. I do know the keystone pipeline was postponed to protect State rights. We have a tar sands pipeline in my state. It did leak, and its been 2 years and they still cant clean it up. The right wing media had done a vary good job of only telling half the story. Google tar sand pipeline Kalamazoo Mi.

[dafydd]

WOAH WTF! just hold right there. u dont get to have a thread about terrorists on bisexual.com without mentioning The Velvet Goldmine! Terrorists are bisexual as well. the bisexual terrorist could be anywhere: sneaking around on the kinsey scale. what kind of club will they blow up next? gay, straight or mixed nights? u never know. it could even be the gogo boy in the corner or the glam rocker in flares...er..WITH FLARES!!Great film. but for ultimate bisexual terrorist plot read Glamorama by Brett Eastern Ellis. sex and semtex and the best bi 3some scene ever written in a novel. ever. ive read em all.

[void()]

WOAH WTF! just hold right there. u dont get to have a thread about terrorists on bisexual.com without mentioning The Velvet Goldmine! Terrorists are bisexual as well. the bisexual terrorist could be anywhere: sneaking around on the kinsey scale. what kind of club will they blow up next? gay, straight or mixed nights? u never know. it could even be the gogo boy in the corner or the glam rocker in flares...er..WITH FLARES!!Great film. but for ultimate bisexual terrorist plot read Glamorama by Brett Eastern Ellis. sex and semtex and the best bi 3some scene ever written in a novel. ever. ive read em all.

Bloody hell, the bulls have found us. Guess we'll have to take planning to encryption channels. That is unless of course we can bribe this one with ownership of a couple brothels, maybe a few laundromats. Think about it, you score 2% of highly sucessful business ventures. You can run the places with some large degree of autonomy, we ask you respect our commision structure. 10% off the top, 2.5% each respectively for the kill and steal guilds, another 3% for legal and medical, the last 2% is your profit.

[pepperjack]

As far as I know, there have only been eight significant threats. The rest were simply wild hairs based upon rumor. The rumors were still followed up just to be sure.



You may consider reading this (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9085?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed: theoildrum (The Oil Drum)) to better acquaint yourself with oil in America. It helps in clarifying definitions regarding oil.



It could also been seen as acceptance or tolerance. For some people these are used as a means of coping with life. You may claim that your method of having faith in God works better.

May I ask if you have considered the fatalism in that belief? You live to be tested supposedly. Once you die, you can be judged worthy or not.

If you are judged worthy then you can look forward to an eternity of praising God on your knees. So, you grovel like a dog and toil just to grovel and toil all the more? You suffer all life throws at you simply to play a round of glorified kiss ass?

That seems pretty defeating to me. We are human and desire to face adversity to find solutions. We have been conditioned by our environment to adapt in order to live. Suddenly upon death we can settle into a paradise or hell without change?

Calling that boring would be an understatement. If that is your idea of heaven, please keep it. You argue for vastly nhilistic and fetal reward in my opinion.

Why do you even need rewards for being a good person? Can you not just be a good person because it feels right, might be the right thing to do? Being a good person for the sake of being a good person is not possible without your brand of religion, or any religion?

All religions seem to promote a grand reward for being a good person. You keep injecting Christianity. Is it not clear no one desires being converted? There are local churches if we desire conversion.

Stop selling lemons and people might feel like inviting you to dinner. As it is we see you telling us that you think everyone absolutely must eat your lemons for dinner. Sorry, I rather eat beans and rice. Some might like pork and biscuits. Others may like duck and gravy with a side of salad.

That last paragraph is a metaphor. I am comparing religions to dinners. Other people far wiser than I have done the same. Jesus to name one refers to wisdom as meat.

If you can not understand my use of metaphor, please have a friend explain it. And no I'm not belittling you for not being able to understand. It can be difficult to do at times.

As evidenced, I myself have difficulty understanding what people write at times. This is why I asked for help. The editorial board is letting me have a bit of free reign in this post. They agree your arguments regarding being a good person are ambigious at best.

I would rather we communicate clearly. If you need help understanding, there is no shame in asking for it. Better to understand than not and miscommunicate.


You just don't get it Void; I'm not trying to convert anybody! I don't care how anyone here chooses to live his or her life; I'm just expressing personal opinions, values, like everyone else. I thought that is what this forum was for. It seems ironic & hypocritical to me that a community that espouses tolerance for one another has such an attitude of intolerance for someone who has faith in God. Ostracize me, ban me....I don't care. I will continue to be me no matter what. Hypocrite! What about how you suck up, grovel before Drew?

[darkeyes]

You just don't get it Void; I'm not trying to convert anybody! I don't care how anyone here chooses to live his or her life; I'm just expressing personal opinions, values, like everyone else. I thought that is what this forum was for. It seems ironic & hypocritical to me that a community that espouses tolerance for one another has such an attitude of intolerance for someone who has faith in God. Ostracize me, ban me....I don't care. I will continue to be me no matter what. Hypocrite! What about how you suck up, grovel before Drew?I see no hypocrisy in Voidie's post Pepper and certainly not intolerance... why is it that as soon as ne 1 questions or criticises religion, out come the H and I words? Are religion and the beliefs of religious people to be free of questioning and criticism?

What is so special about about religion that no one, religious or otherwise can take issue with religion or the views of religious people? Religion is a belief system and like any belief system is deserving of respect and tolerance but it is not untouchable when it comes to questioning. No system, whether it be one of religion, politics. economics or ne thing else should be given a free run unhindered by comment, question and criticism. That believers of any religion, like the believers of any other kind of system have the right to believe is unquestioned and should be championed, but they do not have the right not to be put to the question. It is not intolerant to comment, question and criticise. Intolerance involves a wholly different and much more serious way of dealing with religion or any other system of belief which I doubt Voidie would espouse. Freedom of speech means we have the right to speak out in favour of or against anything we agree or do not agree with. Nowhere do I read Voidie saying that u as a religious person should be deprived of the rights to do as he has done.. advance what u and other religious people think and believe and practice that belief in peace.

Being allowed the peace to practice religion, any religion, does not mean that those of any other religion, or those who have none should be deprived of the right to comment upon and criticise and even oppose what others believe. Use of the word oppose does bring to mind the word intolerance and it has some justice.. but opposition by force of argument is I am afraid a price we pay for living in what is called a free society.. and many things have been implemented in law in our societies because of force of argument which many religions and those of other belief systems do not like.. and will be again..

Sadly however, because some within those belief systems around have taken to what I call real intolerance, often but not always with real hypocrisy, and others for their own purposes have encouraged and used those people to violently oppose just about anything which others happen to believe.. and that brings us back to that nasty little word people are so fond of.. terrorism... and few if any belief systems, religious or otherwise, are entirely free of taint from that..

[void()]

You just don't get it Void; I'm not trying to convert anybody! I don't care how anyone here chooses to live his or her life; I'm just expressing personal opinions, values, like everyone else. I thought that is what this forum was for. It seems ironic & hypocritical to me that a community that espouses tolerance for one another has such an attitude of intolerance for someone who has faith in God. Ostracize me, ban me....I don't care. I will continue to be me no matter what. Hypocrite! What about how you suck up, grovel before Drew?

Frankly, I don't care if you worship holy pine cones or not. When you start equating that worship to common sense anyone could have, and then further flouting that your religion is the one and only, then I start to dislike what your saying in public.

I was asking why one needs any religion to simply be a good person. You obviously don't get that. You keep injecting Christianity and your faith as a Christian into the argument. Do you presume me stupid, forgetful, unable to comprehend simple statements of fact?

"pepperjack is Christian." Gee, I think I got it the first time. You keep on bashing others with it though. You keep telling people they must be Christian as well. Sorry, the world does not function that way.

You got burned by fire once, twice and you still keep putting your hand into it. I don't like abusive people. And people whom presume to tell others what and how to believe I see as abusive. Ergo, I see you as abusive. It is my nature via disliking abusive people to rebel, to piss in their cheerios, to chide, to mock, to argue with them. You keep on pushing, yes I'll push right back.

You might want to read this (http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html). Also check out the response the author of the blog post got from the mother of a gay son. Of course, you still may not get it.


I do not suck up or grovel before Drew. He chose giving a gift. Apparently my opinion on some issues on the site helped him out. I do not think I helped him in great capacity.

Drew still chose giving. I am upset by some recent changes, have voiced that too. No matter what I voice though, it is still Drew's site. That is not groveling but admitting to things being what they factually are.

You obviously don't get that either.

[darkeyes]

There is a popular misconception that when we take issue with beliefs of others and expound our own, we tell people what they must believe. I have often been accused of this but have always treated such thought with the contempt it deserves.. that we argue, whether about philosophy, sex and sexuality, religion, politics or economics is our way of trying to convince others of our point of view... folk have the right to accept or deny what we say but never the right to prevent us from saying it.. I will defend u to the end Voidie, in ur right to express what u believe, but I cannot remember Pepper telling us ever how we must think or what we must believe. I probably disagree with Pepper about most things, but in this I do think you are wrong. He is wrong in his view that your taking issue with his personal religious belief is an intolerance, but two wrongs don't make a right and I do wish people would understand more readily what is intolerance and also what is people telling others how to think.

In an open forum in what are supposed to be free and democratic societies we have the right to express our opinions and our beliefs. Intolerance is closing down and banning argument because we do not like what is said.. censorship in short. Telling people what they must believe is telling them what they must believe.. or else.. dictatorship in other words. Both are two parts of the same system.. tyranny.. both of u have accused the other of being tyrant in a different way.. it's no big deal.. I've had just the same said to me more than once.. the problem with it, in your case, and Pepper's and mine.. none of it is a truism although no doubt we all have different ideas on how much freedom of speech people should be allowed... but one thing people should never be allowed is misrepresenting what and how a person's word's are used in debate and making them out to be what they are not.

[pepperjack]

Frankly, I don't care if you worship holy pine cones or not. When you start equating that worship to common sense anyone could have, and then further flouting that your religion is the one and only, then I start to dislike what your saying in public.

I was asking why one needs any religion to simply be a good person. You obviously don't get that. You keep injecting Christianity and your faith as a Christian into the argument. Do you presume me stupid, forgetful, unable to comprehend simple statements of fact?

"pepperjack is Christian." Gee, I think I got it the first time. You keep on bashing others with it though. You keep telling people they must be Christian as well. Sorry, the world does not function that way.

You got burned by fire once, twice and you still keep putting your hand into it. I don't like abusive people. And people whom presume to tell others what and how to believe I see as abusive. Ergo, I see you as abusive. It is my nature via disliking abusive people to rebel, to piss in their cheerios, to chide, to mock, to argue with them. You keep on pushing, yes I'll push right back.

You might want to read this (http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html). Also check out the response the author of the blog post got from the mother of a gay son. Of course, you still may not get it.


I do not suck up or grovel before Drew. He chose giving a gift. Apparently my opinion on some issues on the site helped him out. I do not think I helped him in great capacity.

Drew still chose giving. I am upset by some recent changes, have voiced that too. No matter what I voice though, it is still Drew's site. That is not groveling but admitting to things being what they factually are.

You obviously don't get that either.


Here we go again with your false accusations. When & how did I flout what I believe as the "one & only?" And "bashing others?" That's like when you tried to accuse me of slander. And "injecting?" Plenty of other members here bring up religion and if you'll look mored closely you'll see I'm responding, not injecting. Another member recently even baited me, drew me out on the topic. I've said several times here now I don't even attend church but feel like I have somewhat of a personal relationship with God and when you verbally demean that connection by comparing it to a "glorified round of kiss-ass" you reveal the despicable nature lurking behind the facade of "simply being a good person" with your penchant for snide barbs and lashing out with name-calling that goes back to our initial encounter almost a year ago. You wanna talk abusive? Go look in the mirror! I told you before, you drew first blood.

[pepperjack]

There is a popular misconception that when we take issue with beliefs of others and expound our own, we tell people what they must believe. I have often been accused of this but have always treated such thought with the contempt it deserves.. that we argue, whether about philosophy, sex and sexuality, religion, politics or economics is our way of trying to convince others of our point of view... folk have the right to accept or deny what we say but never the right to prevent us from saying it.. I will defend u to the end Voidie, in ur right to express what u believe, but I cannot remember Pepper telling us ever how we must think or what we must believe. I probably disagree with Pepper about most things, but in this I do think you are wrong. He is wrong in his view that your taking issue with his personal religious belief is an intolerance, but two wrongs don't make a right and I do wish people would understand more readily what is intolerance and also what is people telling others how to think.

In an open forum in what are supposed to be free and democratic societies we have the right to express our opinions and our beliefs. Intolerance is closing down and banning argument because we do not like what is said.. censorship in short. Telling people what they must believe is telling them what they must believe.. or else.. dictatorship in other words. Both are two parts of the same system.. tyranny.. both of u have accused the other of being tyrant in a different way.. it's no big deal.. I've had just the same said to me more than once.. the problem with it, in your case, and Pepper's and mine.. none of it is a truism although no doubt we all have different ideas on how much freedom of speech people should be allowed... but one thing people should never be allowed is misrepresenting what and how a person's word's are used in debate and making them out to be what they are not.


Thank you for your support on this Fran! It means a lot to me coming from you because,as you said, we've disagreed a lot. I was wrong with my blanket statement about intolerance within the community. I was swayed by the heat of emotion, something I've had to struggle to keep in check all my life. However I must disagree with you with what I perceive as Void's hypocrisy. I feel that he has a personal intolerance for me. He's misinterpreted harmless comments on my part, lashed out, twisted my words, falsely accused me, suggested ostracizing me. To me, that's intolerance.

[**Peg**]

Thank you for your support on this Fran! It means a lot to me coming from you because,as you said, we've disagreed a lot. I was wrong with my blanket statement about intolerance within the community. I was swayed by the heat of emotion, something I've had to struggle to keep in check all my life. However I must disagree with you with what I perceive as Void's hypocrisy. I feel that he has a personal intolerance for me. He's misinterpreted harmless comments on my part, lashed out, twisted my words, falsely accused me, suggested ostracizing me. To me, that's intolerance.



just put each other on ignore and get on with your lives please.

thanks

[pepperjack]

1) T'wood seem different to me but anyways....

2) Sounds logical.

3) "by my own admission" you state I have said that I pride myself in being a good debater? I'll give you a few days to to look the the posts here and quote where I said that. I have said I "enjoy" a good argument, especially one that can find bona fide weaknesses in my opinions or facts. I'll admit when I'm wrong and have been known to change my mind on things following a good argument using strong facts and logic, but I don't ever think I said I'm good at it, much less prideful. My teachers would not have agreed with you

4) You mean like asking people for facts and sources to confirm and substantiate their allegations? For that, I am guilty as changed.

There was a time I was extremely illegal anti-immigration, especially those from Mexico. As it happened, I was arguing this topic with a gentleman from Mexico for about a month. He was defensive on the issue and I was pretty Draconian. One day, just using pure logic, he got me not only to change my mind but my whole attitude about the "illegal" question. For those looking at our interplay as a win/lose game, he won, I lost and the wise-ass, mighty Joan failed. In truth, however, I won too...but on a personal level. So simple yet so persuasive was his logical argument, it changed my outlook on things beyond just the academic. It took some time for the folks in that forum to see a new tag-team emerge that championed the human rights of the illegal Mexican (or Latino) in the US. This is what I carve...knowledge.

If you want to argue form over substance, have at it. I may indulge you just to amuse myself for the time being. Be forewarned though, political and sociological ideology is one thing. Elevating it to a level of blind faith, another. For example, when people quote from a book many consider NOT to be an absolute truism, you've already drawn a hard line. Many of faith believe in certain things so strongly that they would die for them. When that happens, it ceases to be an academic argument or discussion and becomes an exercise in futility. I have no wish to prove you are wrong nor assert that I'm right, especially in matters of faith. That's your business, just keep it from interfering with my rights as citizen. Capiche?

How have I interfered with your rights as a citizen? And don't try to threaten me. Capiche?

[pepperjack]

Tell me why my friends had to die there? Is not ambiguous. I truly want to know the real resin why they where there fighting. Its not for our freedom. Yes I am conflicted. I cant see how any American can not be. Our brothers and sisters are on the other side of the earth fighting in a war with no true benchmark for victory. To support them and pray for them to come home safe. But at the same time not agreeing with what there fighting for. Yes I am conflicted.

I dont know of any drilling projects that Obama's administration has hindered. I do know the keystone pipeline was postponed to protect State rights. We have a tar sands pipeline in my state. It did leak, and its been 2 years and they still cant clean it up. The right wing media had done a vary good job of only telling half the story. Google tar sand pipeline Kalamazoo Mi.

You're right! That statement was not ambiguous. For some reason, something you posted was unclear to me, hence my question. I apologize for appearing as insensitive. It was unintentional.

[Twoforyou]

The war on terror began right after 9/11. It began with orange and red alerts including, famously, The head of " Homeland Security " telling us to stockpile plastic sheeting and duct tape so we could survive a gas attack. Of course we would have died of asphyxiation anyway. The War On Terror was the most baldfaced attempt to instill fear in Americans ever attempted by a group of individuals...and it worked. It worked well enough to win reelection for W, and it worked well enough to promote a needless war in Iraq that the Bush administration had been planning since before it took power.

It was...at least..one the most despicable acts ever committed by a government against its people, and one wonders if purposely lying a nation into war was not an impeachable offense. Now there is another war being waged, against women, gays,illegal aliens...you name it. Call it you and me. I beg of you...please vote. I don't care how...just vote.

[darkeyes]

The war on terror began right after 9/11. It began with orange and red alerts including, famously, The head of " Homeland Security " telling us to stockpile plastic sheeting and duct tape so we could survive a gas attack. Of course we would have died of asphyxiation anyway. The War On Terror was the most baldfaced attempt to instill fear in Americans ever attempted by a group of individuals...and it worked. It worked well enough to win reelection for W, and it worked well enough to promote a needless war in Iraq that the Bush administration had been planning since before it took power.

It was...at least..one the most despicable acts ever committed by a government against its people, and one wonders if purposely lying a nation into war was not an impeachable offense. Now there is another war being waged, against women, gays,illegal aliens...you name it. Call it you and me. I beg of you...please vote. I don't care how...just vote.
However much I agree with u, and what u say equally applies to British Governments and those of many other countries which are just as culpable and dishonest, be careful what u ask for when u call on people to vote.. I am no great lover of our systems of representative democracy for I have never accepted them as particularly democratic, but with your "democratic" system and ours, and others around the world, the choice is between the devil and the deep blue sea really dontcha think?

[*pan*]

The "War on Terror" along with most of the other "wars" that we Americans fight---are pretty much designed to distract and divide Americans from realizing and focusing their ire against those who are conducting--the real war being waged that is against our freedoms and the sort of prosperity and advancement experienced the last roughly 100 years or so, by the vast majority of the population.
i totaly agree, it is about controling the citizens and to do that they have to take freedoms. the one question never asked by anyone when 911 happened was, why did it happen. they were very careful to stay away from that question because then the people would see that sticking our nose in other peoples business was why it happened, trying to control them as they do us. some people in the world will not lay down while freedoms are taken like the sheeple do here in america.

[darkeyes]

The British Government plans legislation to increase the numbers of closed court hearings which may be held under the English Criminal Justice system. Officially these are intended only for some matters of national security but in reality they are to save their own bacon and the bacon of the British Security agencies from being exposed for what they are.. double dealing, insensitive, nasty and ruthless. This is a story about rendition.. it involves the Americans and Libyans, but the principle baddie was not them, but Britain's very own security services. It is one sad tale which shows up the so called war on terror for what it is.. and shows up the foreign policies of western governments towards the Arab world for what they are and gives real insight into just why the British Government want closed court hearings.. it is not nice tale.. read on..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/08/special-report-britain-rendition-libya

[Long Duck Dong]

its not a nice tale, fran but yeah its easy to say that britain should play by the rules, when they are dealing with people that have no rules... its the same principal as the laws that curtail the powers of the police and protect the criminals, cos criminals are people too.... yet the criminals deal in death and destruction on a massive scale and that tends to get ignored cos the police are * evil tools of the system and the powers that be *

lil hint, when you do not know who the enemy is, you have to treat everybody as a potential risk...... its the same principal as dealing with activists, protesters and rioters, something you know a lot about, you may walk with the protesters but you really have no idea who the rioters are, until they let rip..... but you want the cops to take no action against yourself and others as you will see your law breaking as a right of protest but the right of others to have protection of themselves and their property as nil and void......

yes, there is torture, rendition and other things that do happen.... but how much of it do you never hear about..... how many innocent people suffer and die cos people play the * nice person * game and talk over tea and scones about peace that never comes........

it is a case of I believe therefore others are wrong...... and as bad as the secret services are.... the people that they are pursing and trying to stop... are far worse...and I am not just talking about the middle east or the taliban or al queda...

there is a war going on, fran, and while people are so quick to point fingers and make accusations and talk about world peace, they often do not get right into the middle of it and see the real truth, not what the guardian says or some other site that has a one eyed agenda......

before you say anything... I am not taking any sides, I am not showing any favouritism and nor am I endorsing any actions by either side... I am merely accepting the fact that its a harsh world out there.... but it could be much much worse.... and the push to legalise drugs etc, is just the tip of the iceberg of how people are saying that we can not win a fight, so lets make it legal, acceptable, ok to do.... and then blame somebody else, when it all goes wrong......

[darkeyes]

Lil observation about ur fair and balanced view, Duckie, when u do not endorse one side or t'other... why is that u say so few words of criticism of what is the establishment view.. and yet think little of taking a poke at those of us who do not accept that view? It has always been an interesting side of u...

[Bicuriousity]

Lil observation about ur fair and balanced view, Duckie, when u do not endorse one side or t'other... why is that u say so few words of criticism of what is the establishment view.. and yet think little of taking a poke at those of us who do not accept that view? It has always been an interesting side of u...

As a political independent, I am just happy that we have the freedom to argue about politics on a bisexual website, without it being censored, or having some of the Ayotollahs thugs paying a visit.

Sometimes the little things should be held in more esteem!

[Long Duck Dong]

Lil observation about ur fair and balanced view, Duckie, when u do not endorse one side or t'other... why is that u say so few words of criticism of what is the establishment view.. and yet think little of taking a poke at those of us who do not accept that view? It has always been an interesting side of u...

for a start,... I never said my view point was balanced, I said I was not taking sides.... there is a big difference...... and its something that I have always said in the site, I do not take sides, I see points of view and reasoning for things and often I find myself standing with 2 or more groups over the same issues, it either makes me a hypocrite for openly disagreeing with aspects of the same thing that I may be supporting, or it makes me a * traitor * in the eyes of others.....

why it is that I say so few words of criticism about the establishment view.... its cos I really do not give a shit.... as long as they give you and me and others basic human rights and LGBT rights, thats all I really care about... I will leave all the arguing and bitching and protesting and activism to other people that go off on a tangent....and I sit back and i watch those that watch the protesters and activists from behind the scenes

and besides, tenni and drugstore have the LDD bashing down to a fine art now, you have the government and military knocking under control... so i think I will go knock a few nails into the loose boards on the fence at a friends place, then knock off a beer or two and then continue with the paperwork for the LGBT bar that my and my friends are working on purchasing for the LGBT community..... opps sorry,... LGT community... including the bisexual community in with the LGT is wrong... the MR gay thread is proof of that......

but if you and kate and the kids ever come to NZ, your accomodation, meals and drinks will be on the house courtesy of the LGBT... shit sorry LGT bar

[darkeyes]

for a start,... I never said my view point was balanced, I said I was not taking sides.... there is a big difference...... and its something that I have always said in the site, I do not take sides, I see points of view and reasoning for things and often I find myself standing with 2 or more groups over the same issues, it either makes me a hypocrite for openly disagreeing with aspects of the same thing that I may be supporting, or it makes me a * traitor * in the eyes of others.....

why it is that I say so few words of criticism about the establishment view.... its cos I really do not give a shit.... as long as they give you and me and others basic human rights and LGBT rights, thats all I really care about... I will leave all the arguing and bitching and protesting and activism to other people that go off on a tangent....and I sit back and i watch those that watch the protesters and activists from behind the scenes

and besides, tenni and drugstore have the LDD bashing down to a fine art now, you have the government and military knocking under control... so i think I will go knock a few nails into the loose boards on the fence at a friends place, then knock off a beer or two and then continue with the paperwork for the LGBT bar that my and my friends are working on purchasing for the LGBT community..... opps sorry,... LGT community... including the bisexual community in with the LGT is wrong... the MR gay thread is proof of that......

but if you and kate and the kids ever come to NZ, your accomodation, meals and drinks will be on the house courtesy of the LGBT... shit sorry LGT bar
Wish I didn't find this post of urs so sad Duckie.. ther more things in this world 2 give a shit 'bout than just human rights if wich the lgbt rights are but a very small part.. no doubt me bein lil sad wont bother u at all but I am just the same..

..bout tenni and Drugstore, will let otha peeps on site make up ther minds bout that but u shudn't let them get 2 ya.. best just 2 iggie or bite back.. seem 2 recollect ya do.. my turn not 2 take sides but do think Drugstore is a ver peculiar fellow.. mind u..this site has its share of ver peculiar peeps..*giggles wile lookin at Duckie*... bout govt an the military.. I only slag 'em off wen they deserve it.. an' that's most days...

..but ta for the invite... who knows wot the future holds... Kate has family in Oz an some day mayb we will kill two birds wiv 1 stone (metaphorically only.. ya mite b pain in arse.. but wudn't killya literally!!).. (well mayb wud.. u can b ver infuriatin'.. tee hee). Just make sure ya have top notch Cognac and Gin in stock an decent plonk... pubs here havn't a clue bout decent plonk!! An Shiv is ver fond of Malteasers and Malteaser cakes! For a Malteaser cake she will go 2 ends of the earth and b ya friend for eva an a day. Lou the greedy lil minx will eat owt 'cept peas an tinned sweetcorn! Will bring ya a decent Haggis an all.. u just supply the tatties, neeps an hooch 2 wash it down.. no bagpipes.. they hurt me lug'oles!

[darkeyes]

As a political independent, I am just happy that we have the freedom to argue about politics on a bisexual website, without it being censored, or having some of the Ayotollahs thugs paying a visit.

Sometimes the little things should be held in more esteem!
As a political independent, I am just happy if peeps in some countries can have ther weddings or even just dinner brekkie or even just sleep in peace without some Nato drone, "smart" bomb or big nasty heavies in battlekit payin a visit an leavin' ther callin' card..

.. ther r plenty forms of censorship around in our societies 2 keep us goin' (including I may add on this site or hadncha noticed?).. the lil things, hun, I hold in the greatest of esteem.. wich is 1 reason I speak as I do...

[Long Duck Dong]

Wish I didn't find this post of urs so sad Duckie.. ther more things in this world 2 give a shit 'bout than just human rights if wich the lgbt rights are but a very small part.. no doubt me bein lil sad wont bother u at all but I am just the same..



thats the key to it all, fran... you fight for peoples rights and future.... I fight to give them a life to live... and without people like you, they would not see a future worth living for.....

as for tenni and drugstore.. lol the bullies will always go for the *kid * that stands out the most...and well, as long as i am a target, the bullies generally leave the other * kids * alone.... and that is part of the reason I live my life the way i do.... I can help so many others without having to stand in the spotlight, but when I do... its often to give the bullies a target to go after and that way, the other * kids * can get the help they want and need....

it works the same way in a war.... what people will see as big country bullying a lil country, is often true... but under the surface, there are the * peace keepers * that can get in under the radar so to speak and get to the areas where they need to be...... most wars are a illusion to cover the true reality of war and that is much of it is about saving lives, not costing them

[darkeyes]

Duckie hun.. I live in 2 day.. and do far more for 2 day than I do for the future.. but even by doing for 2 day, most of that in itself is putting down a marker for what is 2 come.. so don't think I just care about what is yet 2 come and only concentrate on that, dear 2 me tho that is.... :)

[Nextyearsxmassgifts]

You're right! That statement was not ambiguous. For some reason, something you posted was unclear to me, hence my question. I apologize for appearing as insensitive. It was unintentional.

Its ok, I can get vary heated about this topic. Because it has hit me personally in so many ways. I wellcome others points of view. It is the only way anyone can truly expand there own point of view. I appreciate your apology. I would like to offer you my apology if I have offended you in any way. I also appreciate the exchange of ideas and opinions as well... :)