Wow a vid of a surgery.....sorry not impressed. Seen em before, but news for most of you, you'd react the same way to seeing any surgery including a tooth pulled. It's bloody, it's clinical, it's surgery. And another attempt for people to go omg that's horrible...so is putting a dog to sleep, yet we do it all the time when our pet is suffering.
Most decent people however don't put their pet down when it isn't.Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
there are a lot of posts talking about mutilation etc etc, thats hardly informed consent or constructive debate..... and in the other thread there is no mention of a medical exemption for when a circumcision is medically required, in the article.... something I questioned....
I am middle of the road on a lot of things, as there is always more than one aspect to consider..... and thats why I am not being pro or anti circumcision... just amused at some of the negative remarks about circumcised people, parents and people that do circumcisions.....
maybe those people with the negative remarks would like to come up with a alternative for the people that need a circumcision, so that they are not * mutilated * by *molestors *
and as for the video.... sure, its bloody, its graphic but to a person like me that has been thru a number of operations, dealt with car accidents and suicides etc and farm work, I am pretty much immune to the *graphic * nature of it.....
The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands
I agree with DD totally not impressed, I have witnessed circumcisions performed for Jewish folks on 8 day old boys more than one once. It was not bloody, traumatic, or in any way evil.
The kids usually don't even cry (maybe a whimper for a minute)..
I still know most of those kids 10 - 20 years later and I assure you they are not freaked about the state of their cocks..
This thread really is becoming a waste of electrons..
Liz
hmmm yeah spaying and neutering doesn't cause the pet pain and it keeps the owner from having lots more cats and puppies.... And newsflash, go call PETA, there are a lot of "decent" people who put their pets down for convenience reasons not because the pet is suffering. Or they callously abandon them on the side of the road to be killed by cars and wild animals cause they can't move with them.
I did say decent people or is my and your idea of decent different?
You are getting pretty far afield with this, Katja. You are not a parent. I gave birth to three sons. I circumcised all my sons. They are healthy and happy and will never be thought of as a freak in a locker room. You are from a place where males are mostly uncircumcised and those that are circumcised are viewed as less because of it. So it colors your view. I reiterate, this is not a debate, it's a mudslinging competition. The thing is it's only one side that is trying the shock value tactics of labeling loving mothers child molesters and posting videos intended to disturb. Honestly, just because you personally don't agree with something, it doesn't make others wrong or some kind of monsters.
I am not a parent, but I do know a wrong when I see it. American boys may well pick on the uncircumcised but that is insufficient reason to have it done. Currently from a peak of 85% of infants 40 years ago, the nunbers of circumcisions of American infants has dropped to something like 40%. I think that if anything schoolyard and locker room bullying must be about to reverse itself if it has not already begun to do so. Not being a man I cant say whether circumcised boys were ever bullied for being so in this country, but I dont know of any reports which tells us whether or not that is the case. Knowing English boys as I do they are more likely not bully but to have fun giggles with each about the difference in a very uncouth manner. Good old fashioned English toilet humour. I would definitely be interested to know whether that is the case or not.
Because I disagree with you does not make you a monster. You will find no such claim in anything I have ever said and would appreciate you not inferring that I ever did so. Very few on the anti circumcision lobby would claim that you to be a monster either. Some of the more idiotic and extreme among us possibly. Both sides have those I hasten to add. I do believe that it makes you wrong, but that is a judgement I have made but others, as is their right disagree with that judgement.
By your comments, I'm left wondering, if you actually watched the video. To equate it with pulling a tooth is not a realistic comparison, the dentist will only pull a tooth if it is decayed beyond repair and will do so, under general or local anaesthetic.
Similarly, other operations performed by a surgeon are performed under local or general anaesthetic. In dental surgery, the dentist will wait until the patient informs him the area is numb before proceeding, an infant undergoing circumcision is unable to do this. Even women in childbirth are offered an epidural.
I'm aware that people of the Jewish faith routinely have their sons circumcised at eight days old, in a ritual started by Abraham. Also that baptism was intended to replace this ritual for Christians. Baptism, I think you will agree is less traumatic for the infant than circumcision. Circumcision was intended by Abraham to mark the Jews as God's chosen people and an uncircumcised male is not supposed to participate in the Passover meal.
As a Christian I can't help but feel that Abraham was a deeply troubled man, one that was ready to stick a knife in his son as a human sacrifice. Such a man, nowadays, would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic and secured in a local mental hospital, where he could receive treatment.
That the practice has continued from that time, is, in my view, regrettable.
I have also worked on a farm before and didn't find it comparable to this. Farm animals are regarded as the farmer's possessions, children should not, to my mind, be regarded as such.
As to euthanasia on our pets, when performed by a vet, this is performed by an overdose of anaesthetic, which is quick and painless. It is usually performed when the animal in question is suffering from an incurable illness.
I am aware that there are people, who, through economic reasons, or old age, or simply because they don't care, are incapable of looking after a pet and that such people abandon their pets, or leave them in squalid conditions.
There are organisations that take these animals in and try to find new homes for them. This however is a digression from the subject of this thread, if you wish to open a new thread on this matter I'll happily debate it with you.
On watching the video, my instinct as a man, was to intervene and protect the helpless, child from the obvious distress he was in. That the Father could be there and not intervene, that he could be immune to the obvious distress of his son, I find deeply troubling.
That anyone could witness that on their son and agree to a repetition on other sons they might have simply fills me with astonishment, more so since your own US medical associations no longer recommend it.
Finally, as in any other thread, people who do not wish to participate in the thread, do not have to. It is not forced upon them. That tempers have flared and the level of debate has descended at times to name-calling, is indicative of the intelligence and education of the individual poster concerned.
The message should not be ignored because of the inept manner in which it was delivered. As people we can be passionate about many beliefs, but we should not allow that passion to cloud our judgment. We convert people to our opinion, by the persuasive, logic of our thinking, not by bludgeoning them with smears and insults.
To those that have felt so aggrieved, I offer my sincere apologies.
How would you know? Did you actually ask those adult men if they're OK with having the most sensitive parts of their penises and centers for sexual pleasure literally ripped off and taken away from them without their consent or choice?
I've met lots of cut men of all orientations and even Jewish men who have told me how they're very mad that they're cut and if they had a choice they would not have been cut at all.
Yes the boys do cry, go into shock, and it's very traumatic to them when they get a sensitive part of their penis cut, torn, and ripped off.
Then again when I was born they liked to claim that all infants both boys and girls could not feel any pain at all which is pure BS.
Not all Jews are even for male genital mutilation and there are Jews even in Israel and other countries who do not get their sons' penises mutilated because of their religion.
Then there are these issues:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/...nfants-herpes/
Ten days after Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer performed religious circumcisions on twins last October, one died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus, according to a complaint filed by the health department in Manhattan Supreme Court.
The complaint, reported in Wednesday’s edition of the New York Daily News, also said health officials later found a third baby who had contracted herpes after being circumcised by Fischer in late 2003.
Under Jewish law, a mohel — someone who performs circumcisions — draws blood from the circumcision wound. Most mohels do it by hand with a suction device, but Fischer uses a practice rare outside strict Orthodox groups where he uses his mouth to draw blood after cutting the foreskin.
City health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who was one of three infants to contract herpes after a rabbi circumcised them.
http://www.aztlan.net/metzitzah_b_peh.htm
Los Angeles, Alta California, February 2, 2005 - (ACN) An incredible, shocking and horrific report is coming out of New York City concerning male baby fellatio, genital mutilation and the infection with "herpes" of three infants by a Jewish Rabbi. City of New York health officials are investigating the death of a baby boy who was one of three infants infected with Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 that exists predominantly in the mouths of homosexuals. The practice called "metzitzah b’peh" by Jews is routinely practiced on Jewish baby boys and may explain their sexual dysfunctions later in adult life. Many adult male Jews are "mother fixated" and exhibit a preponderance of homosexual and feminine characteristics. They are being "shocked" out of their masculinity as infants by the ancient and bizarre practices of Jewish Rabbis. It is not yet known what percentage of Jewish males go through the horror.
The case was made public after the New York Health Department filed a complaint in the Manhattan Supreme Court against the Rabbi Yitzhok Fischer. The rabbi had performed "metzitzah b’peh" on twin baby boys last October. A few days later one died of herpes and the other tested positive for the virus. The health department later found a third baby with the Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 that the rabbi had "sucked his penis".
This incredible but true report is now casting doubts on the "medical" practice of circumcision which is unnecessary, Jewish inspired, and amounts to nothing less than "male genital mutilation." There are now a vast number of medical studies that prove that males grow up healthier and perform better sexually when their penises are left intact. The "circumcising" of Gentile baby boys is essentially "Judaizing" them for life.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/ny...ircumcise.html
Last edited by drugstore cowboy; May 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM.
LMAO this is by far the WORST reason ever to mutilate your sons' penises!
You're worried about other people looking at your sons' penises in a locker room?
I'm not cut and I've never had an issue in the locker room from anyone ever.
Yes I've seen other men who are not cut in gym locker rooms, even if I'm the only man there who isn't cut it's not a big deal.
Women who have no idea at all what it's like to have a penis or about how a foreskin gives a man lots of sexual pleasure rob their sons of this sexual pleasure all because they worry about them being teased in a locker room.
Thank you for posting this.
1.
You give your son a gift by hardening him early on to life’s inevitable pain
2.
Circumcised boys never have to face teasing for having a filthy foreskin – and your bleeding, stunned, little infant will thank you for this later
3.
Moses and Jesus lived productive lives without foreskins – what, you think your kid is special?
4.
Nazis hated circumcised penises, therefore circumcision must be a good thing
5.
If God intended males to keep their foreskins He never would have put the idea of circumcision into people’s minds
6.
Mommies secretly like the look of circumcised penises
7.
You’re a pervert for thinking about a boy’s penis so much – for Christ’s sake, just let the good doctor do his job
8.
It is uncomfortable and rude to say “no” to a doctor
9.
The ancient Greeks practiced circumcision, and everyone knows they had the greatest respect for little boys
10.
What, you think that a needy, sniveling, whining, ungrateful, hours-old brat has any right to experience bliss on his first day on earth?
11.
Ritual religious circumcisions are a great chance to bring family together for a grand celebration – and you’re a killjoy for thinking otherwise
12.
Circumcised men are less likely to spread the AIDS virus; but in all fairness, men whose entire penises are removed are even less likely to spread HIV
13.
Traumatized boys are easier to manage; they know who’s boss from the get-go
14.
Don’t stress, everyone knows that circumcised foreskins grow back in time
15.
I can give you a list of a hundred circumcised men who make six-figure incomes, which proves that circumcision is financially beneficial
16.
Adult human penises wreak a lot of damage on this earth, so causing an infant’s penis a little pain is a justified form of preemptive revenge
17.
The Dalai Lama said that we all choose the families into which we are born in order to work through the wrongs of our past lives, therefore baby boys born into pro-circumcision families are responsible for having chosen this karma for themselves
18.
You give your baby boy something he can obsess about in therapy later in his life
19.
Baby boys love having knife-wielding strangers fondle their genitals
20.
Since girls have to get their ears pierced it’s only fair that boys should get the tips of their penises cut off
21.
Botched circumcisions add variety and spice to life
22.
Uncircumcised penises get very dirty, which requires a lot of extra work for busy moms – which is why I’m all for clipping off babies’ ears and nostrils as well
23.
Nip the problem in the bud: there’s less cutting involved in circumcising a tiny baby boy than there is in circumcising an adult man
24.
Doing unto your sons what your parents did unto you helps maintain continuity between the generations
25.
The ideal would be to circumcise baby boys in the womb – before they’re even alive!
26.
Mere mortal, what right have you to question ancient religious texts that were handed down by God Himself
27.
Genitals are evil; the less of them the better
28.
Michelangelo’s David was circumcised, and he is the greatest work of art ever [1/31/2007: A credible (anonymous) reader who recently traveled to Florence emailed me that “David” is in fact uncircumcised. Therefore, I hereby apologize for having stated that David was “the greatest work of art ever,” as clearly he is not. I am deeply sorry for any harm or trauma I may have unknowingly caused readers. -Daniel Mackler, LCSW-R]
29.
Scientific PROOF: Some (flawed) studies show there to be a slight decrease in urinary tract infections among circumcised male babies (P.S. Be sure to read the commentary at the end of the study!)
30.
Since doctors vow to “do no harm,” circumcision cannot possibly be harmful
31.
It’s not like mutilation of a baby’s genitals is sexual abuse!
32.
He’ll forget it all anyway
33.
It takes a lot of hard work and practice to become a good circumciser, and you want to put a hard-working professional out of business?
34.
This discussion is irrelevant, because everyone knows that babies don’t feel pain
In conclusion, if your mind is still not made up, watch this five-minute video of a routine hospital circumcision.
Not all Jewish people or even Moslems circumcise their sons.
I've met Jewish men who were not cut because their Jewish parents did not want them cut and I've met some Moslems who had enlightened parents as well.
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/
Western societies have no problem condemning female genital mutilation (FGM) in Africa. People need to rethink their notion of "sexism." It is sexism when the same act is considered abhorrent when done to girls yet acceptable when done to boys.
Women have said, “I think a circumcised penis is more attractive.” What if your father thought women without clitorises or clitoral hoods were more attractive and had yours removed at eight days old? How would you feel?
What if your fiance told you that he thought women without clitorises were more attractive and wouldn’t marry you unless you had your clitoris or clitoral hood removed (circumcised)? Would you do it? Or, would you tell him he has no right to impose his sexual fetishes on you and promptly terminate your engagement.
A recent book, published by a woman in the United States, indicates that there are sexual disadvantages for women from MGM (Male Genital Mutilation) as well. See http://www.SexAsNatureIntendedIt.com
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