Those are beautiful poem, guysI think that I had already read the one about Flanders...
By the way, I am trying to post another thread, this one with a poll. How do you post a poll in the forum, can someone tell me? :S I would be very grateful.
Those are beautiful poem, guys
By the way, I am trying to post another thread, this one with a poll. How do you post a poll in the forum, can someone tell me? :S I would be very grateful.
Ahhh Heph..the Fran party piece tyvm me luffly... have sung Green Fields more times than I care to remember... that and Bogles And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda are two of me fave anti war songs.. but the greatest of all war poetry is that of the incomporable Wilfred Owen, himself a soldier who was killed just a week before the end of WWI.. this is probably the most famous and is certainly me favourite...
Anthem for Doomed Youth
by Wilfred Owen
What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for them; no prayers nor bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, -
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.
What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of good-byes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Darkeyes - Small adendum to your piece on pacifists - some of those helping the oppressed of the fanatical Nazis were the German people themselves who found they were living in a nightmare. Hence Schindler's list.
Waltzing Matilda
When I was a young man I carried my pack and I lived the free life of a rover
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback I waltzed my Matilda all over
Then in 1915 the country said 'son, it's time to get ready there' work to be done'
So they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun and they marched me away to the war..... etc
Know it well.
And some of Wilfred Owen
There was an ER / Casualty documentary one night and they interviewed the young combatants after their gun battles who were shocked to find that there was nothing glorious in fighting and certainly no film gentle deaths. There was severe pain and long term / life long incapacity. Deaths of friends were messy, painful, often incontinent, and usually took place in a gutter.
.
Very true Heph and I do not wish to minimise the astonishing efforts of those brave Germans who fought in their own way and sacrificed very often everything in opposing the Nazis. Not all were pacifist and probably in reality very few were. My post was in response to a scurrilous criticism of people who held simlar beliefs to myself. I have never advocated do nothing when faced with an evil oppression, merely that whatever our actions are that they do not take life. I hope that if ever faced with the worst, as were the people of nazi Germany, that I have the courage to do what I can in oppostion to that evil as bravely as did those pacifists in Europe during WW2, and as they did, without taking another human life.Originally Posted by Hephaestion
I have no doubt of my courage to fight wrongs in my society, and oppose what I believe are massive wrongs committed by the state.. but my society is still a liberal democracy and I have many freedoms which those people in Europe and Germany did not, nor do I have the fear of arrest for nothing other than my political beliefs or even my sexuality (at least I hope I dont.. but these days who can tell).. but how I would react should my country ever be as was Nazi Germany I will never know until it happens.. I hope I can live up to the beliefs I hold so dear.
Another point you made.. I too believe, and think I made it clear in my other posts, that in remembering the dead on Remembrance Day, we do not simply remember the dead of our own land, but of all nations and peoples, and the tragedy that is war..
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Former Canadian military serviceman here. I have lived in the US for many years and have always been accepted to US memorial and Remembrance day events as a fellow person of honor. A US Marine once told me he had high honor for Canadians who stood on the line of defense knowing they were not the most powerful military but still put themselves in danger to defend freedom. I salute all my fellow soldier, sailors and airmen in Canada, The US, England, France and all honorable service men and women around the world.
I hold in honor all days of remembrance to those who dies in the service of their country but I didn’t know the Canadians had a day. Every country has a day of remembrance to their fallen heroes.
I don’t hold any different special feelings to any country that relies on the USA to be their primary source of defense. I am not sure the US gives your country any need or obligation to help in Afghanistan. Your country is basically a pacifist country which is ok because if your in a jam you call the US to help you.
I am a former Navy Seal and later Delta F. I do not recall any contact or assistance from your country in anything we did. You and the French are both good for running your mouths and doing little. From what I understand from friends in Backwater; they provide security for your bases. I feel in debt for the brave Canadians that served their country and some lost their lives but don’t start with the US have made yall play in war. As far as I am concerned, we would be better off without your country involved. Canada is the most 1-800- u owe me –country in the world.
So get off your pity pot and make more room from the military deserters that come from the US to your lovely country
LOL!!! Then you are quite ignorant and doubtful a navy seal or anything you claim. Try doing your homework before you hit the enter button, dude.
Firefighter, read this.
(The Canadians are over there and doing the jobs they were trained for, too)
http://www.snipercountry.com/Article...2430Metres.asp
From US veteran
Re: Remembrance Day
I did my homework and yes, I was dumb enough to be what I said. The Canadians who are over there are because they believe in what’s right even though the war is wrong and I acknowledged all countries have a day of remembrance including Canada but yours nor our day is no more important than any country that has had those die in service to their country no matter where their country is.
If you have ever been in combat you will soon find out the war isn’t about your country any more but its about you and them and survival. I may have went on missions because it was my duty but after the mission started the rules of why I was there changed to my unit, my friends and my job.
Some of the first casualties of the war were Canadians’ killed by friendly fire from a US fighter plane. I think there were 5 KIA’s.
What pissed me off to write what I did was the comment essentially blaming the US for Canada’s involvement. Your country is just like ours. You have individuals who like going to war just like our spec ops people. As a whole I do see your country as basically a pacifist country who sees the US as a protector and hence puts little effort into a strong military. If either of our country gets in that big a jam its going to take all of us to get out. Allowing the draft dodgers to chill up there pisses me off.
As far as individuals I see there is little difference between us but as a country. Canada sees the US as a big nipple to suck on. Problem is we both have grown up. We aint got no milk and yall have teeth.
It doesn't matter, and anyone telling you anything less doesn't know what they are talking about.
You can say these wars are wrong. Perhaps you own stock in a company that makes bullets and going into war will raise your stock 100X full. You can shout "He is a tyrant who kills the innocent!" all the while ignoring the fact that 15,000+ civilians will die in the course of the war. Many more will die due to stress of the recession and depression. But it doesn’t matter…..
Why, because on the battlefield we fight for each other. The rest is propaganda. We will fight for each other in the eyes of tyranny because we are all united in a special way – being human. The head of Tyranny in Iraq was Sodom. And while some peoples motives for this war may have been driven by politics and greed, at the end of the day we fought for each other.
[QUOTE=firefighter38111;187319] Post 40
I think that there is some truth in what you write and soldiers do what they are told to do. Once in a conflict it is about survival. The difference in perspective is just that. It is interesting to read your thoughts on Canada as a pacifist country. We use to refer to it as Peace Keepers. That is perhaps different than pacifism but let's not debate in a thread intended to remember the sacrifices of those who served their country and did what they were told by their government. I don't know a pacifist country. All countries will defend themselves if invaded. That is different than being a military aggressor.
When I was a child, we were told that Remembrance Day was started to remember those who died in a belief that those deaths would bring peace. Conflicts should be resolved without violence so that soldiers do not have to die. In that sense Canada was a peace seeking country rather than a military aggressor. If that is pacifism so be it.
Canucks do not see ourselves as being protected by the US while you do. It seems US people, like yourself, like to see your country as a protector rather than a global dominator. I had written much about NORAD and NATO as far as Canada, Afghanistan and the US are concerned and your perception about our two countries. I've removed it because that is not the reason for the thread.
This thread is not about the politics though. It is about remembering those who served their country and died. Let's end this and respect the dead. Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations.
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Last edited by tenni; Nov 13, 2010 at 10:02 AM.
Not without reservation Tenni me darlin'.. many do not deserve either honour or respect...Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations. [/B]
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Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Fran, hon, I love you but you really need to follow your own quote. There is absolutely no reason, no matter your own PERSONAL opinions about a cause, to sit on a forum and deliberately insult servicemen and women who gave all for a cause.
You may feel that way Darlin' darlin'.. but not all of the millions who died in the name of the cause are deserving of it... I can easily respect, for all my pacifism those who died in battle fighting for the things in which they believe.. but I make no apologies for not respecting or honouriing those who, with malice born from personal, idelogical or causal enmity, took the life of, and perpetrated all sorts of atrocities upon any who were unarmed.. that respect and honour spreads to those who surivived a conflict.. but dont ask me to respect and honour sericemean adn women who have comitted acts of thoughtless, evil and stupid brutality in the name for any reason.. do you respect and honour the murderers of My Lai or Bloody Sunday? The SS soldiers who butchered millions in WW2? The Soviet soldiers who raped hundreds of thousands of women in Berlin and other German cities in 1945, the British soldiers of bloody Sunday or who slaughtered so many unarmed and wonded Zulu warriors after the seige of Rorke's drift or strapped prisoners to a cannon after the mutiny in India , the Belgian who committed such appalling atrocities in the Congo, the Japanese who did such awful things in the name of Emperor, the Mongol or Roman who slaughtered so pitilessly in ages past.
No Darlin' darlin'.. u may support and honour such people.. I'm afraid I cannot...
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Did you even read what the thread was about? Remembrance Day in Canada. Their way of honoring the dead from World War I. Do not bring anything else into it, Fran. And our honoring our Vets on the days Americans set aside for doing so in no way glorifies things like the My Lai massacre. You talk out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. People every day do things in the name of duty whether they be military or police or firemen or teachers. Sometimes we don't agree with some of the things they have to do in their quest to do their job but it doesn't make them any less a person who is deserving of the respect and tolerance you ask for in your sig. You want respect as a pacifist while looking down on those that served. Look to your own bloody history of Scotland and tell me who died for the freedom you enjoy right now.
Remembrance Day is not about remembering veterans..it is about remembering those who died in battle or honourably in the service of their country and the appalling cost of conflict.. I remember it in my own way.. and I remember it is an appalling waste of soldier and civilian alike... and I remember also that simply because one is a soldier, sailor or airman who died does not automatically qualify him or her for my respect or honour..many were, and are butchers and bastards.. yes Darlin' darlin'.. I read and understood the thread.. it is not who and what we are which qualifies us for honour and respect, but what we do and how we live our lives.. a war criminal is a war criminal.. whether or not he or she has or had on a uniform when he or she committed his or her crimes and simply obeyed orders does not alter that simple fact...
Last edited by darkeyes; Nov 14, 2010 at 5:25 AM.
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Although the thread started out mentioning Canada, the original allied forces from WW1 use the same occasion to remember their war dead. So it is Remembrance Day in many countries.
Understandably the commemoration has spread to include other conflicts, in part because the number of survivors from WW1 has almost vanished. The latter day conflicts cause controversy in what is revealed but the nevertheless they are there.
One set of arguments suggests that all war dead should be respected. Another set of arguments suggests that not all soldiers are worthy of that respect in as much as atrocities were commmitted in their activities. In this Darkeyes is right. There are some who are not worthy even from our side.
However, everyone seems to agree that war is associated with needless waste of life.
What we all hope that is being remembered are those nameless many on all sides who prayed to the same God and trustingly gave their lives in their country's cause without attached shame. This is epitomised in the tomb of the unknown warrior, housing a randomly selected unidentifiable body of a soldier from WW1 represeting the countless lost in equal anonymity.
Soldiers are glorified. Perhaps there should there be a Remembrance Day for the wasted innocent civilians of conflict? The USSR in WW2 would seem to be eligible for 1st place, unless the Chinese can say 'better'.
I would like to clear something up about Canada's Remembrance Day.
Yes, like Britain and the US it started with Armitace Day honouring the sacrifices of WW1 soldiers. Like both the other countries, it expanded to include the sacrifices of soldiers in WW2 and the Korean War. It now includes and has for awhile all military who sacrifice their live in duty for their country. This included all military who died in the line of duty whether on a battle field or not. It included those who died while serving as Blue Barret Peace Keepers under the UN. This is where it seems to differ from the US. We honour those who died for Peace and trying to keep the peace between conflicting groups. This is where someone got the idea that Canada is a pacifist nation. We are very proud of serving the UN and humankind in this manner. We do include those veterans and they are proudly present during Remembrance Day honouring their fellow soldiers who died and those who are wounded in several different ways. They proudly wear their Blue Barret on Remembrance Day. It is a day of honouring and remembering those who served and sacrificed. It may just have a slightly different emphasis than the US Veteran's Day. I looked up Memorial Day and see it as remembering more the dead than veterans who survived? I may be wrong. In that sense we use November 11 in a slightly different way and may be closer to Britain in Remembrance Day services etc.?
The Day has gained much more significance with the deaths of so many in Afghanistan and the undeclared so called "war"(really propping up a rather corrupt regime lead by Karzai.) I'm not sure if it is true still but more Canadians have died in Afghanistan per capita and per numbers of military personnell in Afghanistan than any other country supposedly supporting "freedom".
I am wandering into a too political position. Let me say that darkeyes raises an interesting point as to whether a country should honour and remember those who died in less than "honourable" situations. Presently, we remember those who died in Afghanistan and whether it is a just cause is left away from the ceremonies. I suspect that is the same for Britain and the US.
What changed this year were two things. This is the first year that a WW1 veteran was not alive. He actually ended up living his life out in the US. The second thing that marred the day was the PM Harper announcing the extension of military staying in Afghanistan (to 2013) to "train" Afghan troops after a Parliamentary motion to remove all military by July 2011. It was wrong for him to bring that in so close to such a day of remembrance imo as well as others. The pressure did come from the US and if a US person doesn't know or believe it. That is their problem and perspective. I understand that the US has pressured other NATO countries to stay to train as well. Only Netherlands has completely removed their troops and the news is that the US is pressuring them to return. (whether this gets into US media or not)
So, Canada definitely honours and remembers all who have died in military service to our country and not just WW1.
Last edited by tenni; Nov 14, 2010 at 11:55 AM.
Most people here still call it Armistice Day, Tenni, although some like me prefer Remembrance because it is about much more than the fallen of one war which ended over 90 years ago. The last British suvivor who fought in WWI died earlier this year and it has long since been expanded to refer to all of Britains dead (and maimed) in conflicts subsequent to that awful quagmire of death.
May I just correct you a little on what I mean by not being able to respect or honour all who died. Many SS died bravely fighting both the russians and western allied forces.. this does not mean I can accord to them honour necessarily.. for it is how they conducted themselves prior to that death which would settle the matter.. did they for instance slaughter innocent Russian or Ukrainian civilans, murder surrendered allied prisoners, were involved as camp guards and executioners in the death camps. Similiarly, it is known that British soldiers killed unarmed civilans and surrendered axis prisoners in both the European and Asian theatres of war, they raped axis women, and treated many civilians, men women and children, appallingly.. it is known that British soldiers tortured and executed enemy prisoners summarily... it is known that British soldiers fired upon their own citizens in Northern Ireland and lied afterward to protect their own skin.. it is known that RAF bomber crews killed untold thousands in Harris's terror raids on Germany by area bombing and laid whole cities to waste.. it is known that in Iraq, British soldiers tortured Iraqi civilians.. in Afganistan have been responsible for the deaths of innocent civilans and not always accidentally.. many of these died on active service and died bravely.. does their brave death excuse their crimes? I would argue not.. a war crime is a war crime... no matter on whose side the perpetrator.. and a war criminal is not in my view worthy of our respect, no matter the manner of his or her death..
Last edited by darkeyes; Nov 14, 2010 at 9:35 PM.
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
darkeyes
Yes, in a sense our nationalism shows through on Remembrance Day. We (all nations) tend to honour without discrimination to individuals. The victors tend not to deal with those who did deeds that if on the opposing side might lead to charges. If we do however focus on those who have died in service to their country can we not honour the enemy's soldiers at this point in time? There are signs that the Allies aging soldiers gather with "some" of the Axis soldiers to remember..perhaps the futility of war as well as both fallen comrades.
Please dont misunderstand me, tenni.. on 11 November each year I remember the dead of all war and those of all nations who perished or had their ives and bodies ruined as a consequence.. it is not narrow nationalism on my part.. I also remember the ruination and slaughter of our environment and the slaughter of other species, both flora and fauna which war inflicts on the world.. this to some sounds silly I know, but whole ares of the world have been laid waste as a result of war, modern warfare particularly, and we ruin and pollute our world at our peril...
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
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