Here is the latest on the aid getting in:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm
Guess what.. their policy worked..
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
Here is the latest on the aid getting in:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm
Guess what.. their policy worked..
Last edited by hardnbubbly; Jun 17, 2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason: clarification
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
Hamas charter.
As politely as I can say it, BULLSHIT. The protesters were processed and on their way to being released within 17 hours, the aid sat for a week. Pick another party line.
Thanks hardnbubbly
I notice that the Guardian reports that this was last week and it points out that Israel should deliver the cement that was brought. By refusing to permit cement into Gaza, Israel is defying the UN definition of what is humanitarian aid. A tough position for Hammas to take. I believe that the activists have all been released now? I wonder if Hammas is still refusing the aid. I would blame them for not accepting the medicine etc. just because Israel is holding back the cement. Hammas is right that it should be delivered but this is an example of plain stubborn bull headedness on both sides. Logic is out the window and a nasty pissing contest is going on over there.
Thanks for the recent info DD
However, do you not see the pissing contest coming from Israel?
""Israel has no communication with Hamas, we speak to Fatah officials at the borders," said the Israeli security official."
wtf????
Hammas is the government of Gaza and Fatah and Hammas are kinda enemies too? Silly Israel...just plain fuck'n dumb of them.
Not sure if it's dumb or if they are chosen to report to Hamas. I was a bit stumped as well since Hamas killed off Fatah members during it's election victory.
Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?
Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..
I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?
There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?
This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.
Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.
from the link you posted
"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.
The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.
am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????
but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel
its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......
the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???
fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....
The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands
And Israel is promising what exactly? A bouquet of roses?
The IRA changed their stance eventually, but someone had to be willing to have them at the negotiation table. Likewise for Hamas. They are no more ideological than say the Israeli foreign minister.
Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".
DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).
AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.
I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.
Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.
Lol... you completely misunderstood what I was saying..
I generally disagree with Hamas and their policies. And if you read my previous post, I did say that I think they should have let it in.
But again, I guess their manouver worked. Some hospitals and schools will get rebuilt.
As for they UN, Israel also decides what they can bring into Gaza and what they cannot. The blockade encompasses them as well. And yes, chocolate is one of the banned items. So are a lot of medicins, school supplies and so on.
And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.
Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).
This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?
I did not misunderstand at all ( the way I write, is what confuses the hell out of people but its done for a reason )......
I read your link...... as for why israel has banned a lot of items, I can only guess at...... however some items I understand why... cement being one.....
plastercrete is a superior item to cement for a number of reasond....
I have the stance that I hate politics.... but I am acutely aware, that you have 3 levels of people in any society
the people, the civilians, the * innocents * the armed forces etc
the politicians with all their posing and posturing and strutting.....
then you have the militant extremists.... they are the issue with the attacks, rockets, the killings, the ones that believe that their opinion and stance is the law, the religion, the rights.... regardless of what their own government may say......
they are the people that is the problem.... you could gain peace in gaza, and they will not stop fighting, they will even turn on their own kind if need be.....
I hate bureaucratic bs, such as the aid supplies and shipments and who can do what.... and as your link showed, its coming from a government level..... but its not the government that is doing the rocket attacks on the convoys... its the militants, they are the ones with the training with the armaments.....
I am the type of person that believes that aid and aid only shipments should be allowed freedom of movement within reason, but yes, I allow for ships to be sent to a designated port for inspection ( ashdod port ).... but I say that from the point of view that its not just the aid that can be the issue.....
as I have said earlier in the thread.... 700 people on one boat..... how many would have left the gaza strip after the unloading. 600?? 500??
with each death in the gaza strip, hamas and the other groups lose more fighters.... and well, aid is not the only thing that becomes urgently needed.....
it falls back again, on my knowledge of military and combat training..... something that civilians may not have...... you can not keep fighting a war, if you have nobody left to fight on your side.... and as I said in another post.... I am not fully convinced that israel boarded the ships just cos they never stopped... I have the strangest feeling, they boarded the ships cos the ships were carrying people seeking to ally with the fighters in gaza ....
I am willing to wager a $10,000 bet, that israel will never fall, regardless of who goes against them...... we will see peace first..... but it will not come at the hands of the UN ..... it will come from the middle east
The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands
I won't swear. I shall not lower myself to that level......but don't tell me what I can and cannot handle being told me. You have no idea what I can and cannot handle.
I can see that you will never be swayed, from the position you have taken. I'll say again....children are dying in conflicts, in much the same manner and worse, all over the world. You seem to think that only Jews are suffering. Do you speak out as strongly against other wrongs in the world, which are killing children, as well as adults.
It's impossible to debate with people. who are so definite in their devotion to one side in such a conflict as is happening in the Middle East. You will not be moved to take a step outside, what you are so adamant about, and consider that Israel may be in the wrong. Do you think that Israel can do any wrong???
Not mis-direction.......just letting you know that Israel is not the only place in the world, to have children suffering. The suffering of those in Gaza, I have no doubt, is much worse, than the children of Israel. You are the one showing a closed mind......not me.
I am Queen of all felines. I'm a Lioness. A Leo
What!!!...No coffee??? Keep the stuff in bottles, Sir! I want a real drink!
Love, is the most important emotion in the Cosmos. Love is all..
I completely agree. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.
Pasa
ROFLMAO Pasa very nice and so true.
Canticle you are so anti Israel I am surprised Hamas hasn't offered you a membership.
I know all about the suffering in this world and I can guarantee you every second of every day there is someone having a much worse day than anything you or I can imagine. So you lay off me about Israel and I'll lay off you about antiIsrael.
Til then, bring it on.
Good question. Good question indeed. We could ask the British the same question. They did the EXACT same thing.
Those borders were lost as a result of a war Israel didn't start. They have no right to demand a return to those borders.This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.
But, this is not a struggle for human rights. This is a struggle of one nation who has a 'government' opposing it that has, AS IT'S STATED PURPOSE FOR BEING the eradication and elimination of the Jews. This is Israel fighting for its very survival.
IF, and I mean this, IF Palestine were to reject the idea that Israel should be destroyed, then I would agree with you 100%. That's a huge IF.
As long as Palestine has, as it's stated purpose for existing, the eradication of Israel from existing, then yes, it's valid. How could it not be? That doesn't make palestinians less than human. It makes them extremely human. When humans make choices, they suffer consequences for those choices.Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.
Now, there is the REALLY important point: Israel rejects this idea. Israel could rid itself of it's problems easily. It would take less than a week. And yet, rather than rid itself of it's enemy, they have suffered decades of missile attacks. THAT is the difference between Israel and Gaza. Israel actually could do the Palestinians what Hamas has vowed to do to Israel. And yet, it chooses not to.
Pasa
Decidely amateurish and been done to death. You just want everyone to agree with you and your country's foreign policy. I don't care who agrees or disagrees with me. It just saddens me, to see people, posting with such loathing in their hearts for certain things. I am neither pro or anti Israeli...or pro or anti Palestinian. I detest terror tactics, whereever they come from, the rebel...aka the terrorist...or the state. The USA may be a big super power....but is doesn't make their support of Israel right. And you don't have to go along with your governments foreign policy, just because you're a citizen............or would that make you anti American.
I am Queen of all felines. I'm a Lioness. A Leo
What!!!...No coffee??? Keep the stuff in bottles, Sir! I want a real drink!
Love, is the most important emotion in the Cosmos. Love is all..
Well, DD, you have gone down in my estimations. Not that this will bother you.
Not so clever of Pasa and not at all true.......but you have got to agree, haven't you.
Very immature...laughing like that...and the insults fly...once again.
I'm not anti Israel...I'm not pro Hamas. So get that right.
I will continue to bring up the suffering of others, as it is important that this should be realised. It would be very difficult not to get on your case about Israel, even though I'm not, because the subject is about Israel and Gaza and the aid ship and your obvious anger, and seemingly unwillingness to even have any criticism of Israel, is very disturbing.
I am Queen of all felines. I'm a Lioness. A Leo
What!!!...No coffee??? Keep the stuff in bottles, Sir! I want a real drink!
Love, is the most important emotion in the Cosmos. Love is all..
Yes, true...you appear unwilling to see things in another light.
A question........if you blame Hamas for 'most,' of the conflict, then you must obviously blame israel, for a certain percentage of the troubles out there. Tell us what you think Israel may be guilty of and what she, as a nation, can do, to change things, so that the sate of Israel comes out white in the wash.
I am Queen of all felines. I'm a Lioness. A Leo
What!!!...No coffee??? Keep the stuff in bottles, Sir! I want a real drink!
Love, is the most important emotion in the Cosmos. Love is all..
out of curiosity, why is the double standards allowed by you but not others.... you questioned me about things I posted that were not to do with the thread subject matter, while you now do the same.....
and in regards to your remarks to pasa about the anti american stance....
anybody that knows anything, will know and understand that american has a strategic military interest in the middle east, the last thing they want to do, is piss off the middle east and lose that strategical advantage.....
that doesn't make any body, with a opinion that can appear to support their country, supporting their countries stance...... there is a wide divide between a matching stance and support of your countries stance.....
I myself, as a ex military person, support the nz troops in arghanistan, from the point of view that they are over there trying to get the troops home alive, from all countries.... yet, I am anti my countries stance of send troops to fight americans wars.... as the cost to nz is something that the taz payer has to shoulder.... and its the nz population that have to bury the dead from a conflict that we never started......
at the end of the day, canticle, you are sinking faster and faster into a quadmire of your own making... you are out of your depth on a number of issues..... but you are insisting on telling people with actual knowledge and experience in a number of areas, that they are uninformed, yet, you lack understanding of the areas that they address.....
there is no news paper, website, tv program that will teach you what the trained military professionals know and understand about the boarding of the ship..... and while you can cry propaganda at every video that shows something that can contradict your stance on things..... it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the videos are disproving what the protestors are saying and supporting what israel is saying.....
there are even independant sources such as aid groups that have shared info that prove that israel is telling the truth in a number of areas.....
but as many of us have noticed, you cry propaganda at anything you can not decry, you avoid many questions, you are very quick to puff out your chest about your own intelligence but you fail to understand that there are those of us that are not pro / anti hamas or pro / anti israel...... we are merely reviewing the facts and findings using our knowledge and skills and understanding that is far superior to yours....... and posting our findings..... and watching you try and decry what we say......and get it wrong a lot
one example of that, is you trying to drive me into the jihad / martyr debate, that was between tenni and DD... yet, when I posted that I was not involved, you posted again and told me that I did not understand the meanings of the words...
so canticle ......you have stated that you will leave the thread ( a number of pages ago ) and yet you still are in the thread...... you have hardly provided any proof to back up your arguments, yet decried others providing links to sites and videos......
now I ask of you again, since we are all uninformed fools..... where is your proof we are all wrong..... where is your links to non propaganda videos and news sites.... where is your break down of events, backed up by field knowledge and understanding......
I wait as I have done so for many pages..... for you to rebut this post, without a wall of text, and actual links to non propaganda videos and websites...... unless... you do not have anything to link to...
Last edited by Long Duck Dong; Jun 18, 2010 at 3:52 AM.
The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands
Recent Newsbroadcasts tell of 'extreme orthodox Jews' wanting to set up their own environment within Israel. The latest aspect is separate schools for their children.
Wars tend to bind a nation together initially. Is this the same element in the Israeli nation that has been causing trouble by aggressive land grabbing and settlement expansion?
Is Israel begining to break up under the strain?
.
RE 652
What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?
Last edited by DuckiesDarling; Jun 18, 2010 at 5:41 AM. Reason: edited out a nice long insulting calling a stalker a stalker post
Got a link, Heph?
[QUOTE=DuckiesDarling;172657]Got a link, Heph?[QUOTE]
I assume this is what Heph is referring to Darling, darling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...t/10338900.stm
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Thanks, Fran and interesting post. Yet it only confirms Israel is like every other country in the world when it comes to religion in schools. We have areas like that here in the US yet they conform to the standards set for home teaching and pass every certification test given so it's allowed as long as the children aren't being abused. We have the Amish community here and they do not use modern techonology and they do home school their children. I can see their point but I can also see the Israeli government's point, if they can't get their children to accept others what hope is there for the Middle East at all?
I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.
Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.
Last edited by tenni; Jun 18, 2010 at 8:20 AM.
go start a thread about it then tenni..... we would not want to upset canticle by going off topic...... and not talking about the flotilla....
btw, who are the pro israel people....
fran is quiet, hep is neutral like me, and pasa I think is pro israel in the flotilla issue, not sure about other parts.... DD is pro israel on a few things....and canticle.... well.... god knows... I am not sure she knows herself.....
The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks