Gaza Aid Convoy

[Pasadenacpl2]

at the end of the day, hephas.... there is a lot of BS in the media, the israels story and the protestors story.....and 9 dead people.....

At the end of the day, we have 6 other ships that were boarded without incident. This ship was different for some reason that I won't speculate on. We have a group of people who were told not to try to break the blockade, they didn't listen and instead decided that violence was a better option. That only 9 died should be the story. Those people placed themselves in peril, and have no one to blame but themselves.

Pasa

[hardnbubbly]

I guess being shot in the head from a helicopter is just expected in INTERNATIONAL waters. They didn't even get to Israeli waters let alone Gazan waters. They were on INTERNATIONAL territory.

At the end of the day, we have 6 other ships that were boarded without incident. This ship was different for some reason that I won't speculate on. We have a group of people who were told not to try to break the blockade, they didn't listen and instead decided that violence was a better option. That only 9 died should be the story. Those people placed themselves in peril, and have no one to blame but themselves.

Pasa

[hardnbubbly]

Wow.. since when are you the spokeswoman for Gaza.

Gazan are normal people.. just like you and me.. they are occupied and they are looking for their freedom. Yes there are fanatics and yes there are the pacifists and there are others that don't give a damn.. they don't care who is ruling them as long as they get to feed their kids, get their shelter, their education and their dignity. Same goes for Israelis, there are just as many fanatics who burn mosques, destroy farms, and deface cemeteries.

I guess to you Israel can do no wrong..

Go ahead and blame me, Tenni. That's your opinion, but your remarks are totally uncalled for. Israel acts in self defense, Gaza fires rockets cause it hates Jews. Yeah so blame me for the Iraqi war and blame me for global warming and blame me for Al Queda flying planes into a civilian area for no other reason than they didn't like America.

[tenni]

Ok...if and when the US collapses as a super power due to fiscal mismanagement, depletion of natural resources(already happened) etc. and China or India become "the" super power, we will see how you react if you are blockaded. Until then, keep truck'n on as if being top of the heap will continue forever. Proclaim yourself as exporting freedom and democracy rather than oppressing and controlling other countries like any other "empire" country.

I fully welcome any attempt to blockade the US. I also fully welcome any attempt to put the US into an isolationist position. I think you will find that other nations suffer for this far more than the US will.

No, I don't give much credence to the UN. It's a nice get together. But it is NOT a governing body. It does not hold power over nations. That was neither the purpose in the beginning, nor is it now. No one needs the UN's blessing to do anything. Sure, it makes it easier, occasionally, but it's not necessary.

To say that Israel's blockade is illegal because it isn't blessed by the UN is to not understand the scope, purpose, or power of the UN. It is also an indication of not understanding the concept of the word sovereign.

REPEAT: When Palestine stops accepting arms from Iran and Syria, and stops firing those arms into Israel, the blockade will stop. NEWS FLASH: When you try to break a blockade, and get caught, people will die. If you put yourself there on purpose, and you die, you essentially committed suicide and it's your own damn fault.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Oh, I understand the effect it will have on the US, Tenni. Several things:

1. Do you honestly think any navy, hell, any 4 navies have the ability to blockade us?

2. We'd deplete resources...for awhile. It would actually force us to move ahead in new fuels and new ways of doing things. Innovation is what drives the US, always has been. As for other things, I'm ok with us losing a bit of world power. But, let me ask you, who will step in to take our place?

Who will step in to give the largest amount of both governmental and private aid to both industries and nations? Who will step in to at least try to curb the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Who will step in to feed nations in need? Who will the UN call on whenever it wants a watchdog? Who will defend NATO when Russia decides it no longer wants to play ball (and, if you're watching Putin, this will be within this decade)? Who will stop Iran when the UN finally decides that it was a mistake to allow Iran to go this far? What will Canada do when we no longer trade with you? What will Canada do when other nations decide it wants Canada's resources? We can defend our nation from invasion. Can you? Somehow, I doubt it.

You can villify the US all you want. It's easy to do when you live under the blanket and comfort of the protection we provide you. But, when push comes to shove, we have wielded our power with far more responsibility, and far more benevolence than any other comparable power in the history of the world. For every wrong you can show, I can show ten goods. My nation is not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than you, in your tin foil hat, paints it.

Kindly, and with respect, fuck off.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

I guess being shot in the head from a helicopter is just expected in INTERNATIONAL waters. They didn't even get to Israeli waters let alone Gazan waters. They were on INTERNATIONAL territory.

Agreed. Completely. The one fault I have found with Israel is where they did this. I agree with them about what they did, and even how they did it. But, they pulled the trigger too early. 100% agreed with you.

Pasa

[tenni]

I do apologize for beginning to take this thread off topic and diverting it to the possible blockading of Mr "SuperPOwerrrrrrr" in his possible approaching dotage years.(to make a point via metaphoric comparison) Pasa has now joined me in diverting our attention from the Gaza blockade to some poster's favourite topic...how wonderful or terrible Uncle Sam is. Suffice to say that it is a matter of interpretative speculation as to whether the US may be blockaded one day by a country more powerful than himself. Should any country be permitted to blockade and board cargo ships in international waters? Somolian pirates no...Israel storm trooping commando armed bullies ....?

[Pasadenacpl2]

You keep trying to use trigger words to describe this. I'm sure if you repeat lies often enough, you might get others to repeat them too, and believe them. There is a considerable difference between this and piracy, and you know it.

Now, could you contribute some thing useful other than paranoia and tin foil hat exposition? We get it. You're anti-Israel, and anti-US. Move on.

Pasa

[tenni]

tin foil hat? omg I think of that as words used by radical, extremist narrow minded people as a put down...Did you get your hands on their official "words to use " handbook?...lol

Please expand upon how the differences between Somolian pirates and the Israel's actions ..other than one is a state sponsored act and the other are actions by citizens a near failed state that can not control its citizens. There are few other differences, I agree. Israel is a country that has experienced rockets fired from Gaza. Israel has also done questionable deeds such as using depleted uranium bullets when it invaded neighbouring countries. I agree that this is not a black and white situation. I agree with you that Israel pulled the trigger too soon in International waters. That is the main point here. It was not in Israeli nor Gazan waters. The pirates of Somalia are boarding cargo ships in international waters as well. They held their prisoners and blackmailed the cargo ship owners. Israel is holding all Gazan hostage as well. Israel doesn't want money though. *stops ramble

You keep trying to use trigger words to describe this. I'm sure if you repeat lies often enough, you might get others to repeat them too, and believe them. There is a considerable difference between this and piracy, and you know it.

Now, could you contribute some thing useful other than paranoia and tin foil hat exposition? We get it. You're anti-Israel, and anti-US. Move on.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tin Foil hat fits. Hell, the Depleted Uranium claim is one of those conspiracy theory stories. Last I checked, the claim was made in 2000, and found to be wrong. It was made in 2006, and again found to be wrong. And again claimed in 2009. And the IAEA was asked to launch yet another investigation. The IAEA has been remarkably silent on the issue since.

You make claims that you can't back up. You did this about President Bush. You do this now against Israel. You have professed on these boards to believe just about every conspiracy nut to get onto the airwaves with an ax to grind against your preferred targets. It makes you incredibly susceptible to assumption, supposition, and bad journalism.

I'll keep repeating: When Gaza stops attacking Israel and accepts peace, Gaza will cease to be under siege. As long as they maintain a capability, and a desire to attack Israel, they will be under siege. That's how sieges work.

Pasa

[tenni]

Thanks for your perspective but it didn't clear up the differences between between Israel's actions and the Somali pirates actions in international water. You go off topic. Accusations about your government which also has been accused of using depleted uranium bullets in Iraq have been proven but not related to this topic specifically. Accusations about Israel's use of such bullets is relevant to Israel's actions with its neigbhours. No side is completely correct or wrong here. We may only discuss the specific actions and unfortunately mired in a lot of cross accusations and wrong actions. It is a mess. In this case, unless proven otherwise, both you and I agree that Israel was wrong to shoot to kill people in international waters. Yes?


* almost resists commenting on nut cases and Bush metaphoric possibilities...

[Pasadenacpl2]

Thanks for your perspective but it didn't clear up the differences between between Israel's actions and the Somali pirates actions in international water. You go off topic. Accusations about your government which also has been accused of using depleted uranium bullets in Iraq have been proven but not related to this topic specifically. Accusations about Israel's use of such bullets is relevant to Israel's actions with its neigbhours. No side is completely correct or wrong here. We may only discuss the specific actions and unfortunately mired in a lot of cross accusations and wrong actions. It is a mess. In this case, unless proven otherwise, both you and I agree that Israel was wrong to shoot to kill people in international waters. Yes?


* almost resists commenting on nut cases and Bush metaphoric possibilities...

No, we do not agree.

It was wrong to board in international waters. Once those on board decided to attack, all bets were off. The story here should be that only nine were killed is the more important story here. Having watched every video that's been released so far, those on board are lucky that they only had 9 die.

When you decide to become a combatant against people who are better at it than you, when you are acting in defiance of what they've asked, you have no one to blame but yourself for getting killed.

Pasa

[tenni]

We agree that boarding in international waters was wrong? well there ya go!!! Two other issues:

1/ There are statements from those on the ships that shots were fired before the Israelis boarded. (according to one international maritime law expert who stated that Israel should have used tear gas and not bullets before booarding).

2/ All videos shot by those on board were confiscated by Israel. Israel selectively released some of the video. Accusations exist of editing of the videos.
*I'm not saying that these accusations are correct but they are made by those who were actually on the ships. Three were Canadian and I don't know how he did it or even if he was the one to get this footage. He was on the ship were the shootings happened. He stated that there was blood everywhere. People gasping to breath and others trying desparately trying to keep them alive. Blood spattered all over a wall of the ship was shown in Canada. He stated that it showed how violent the interaction was.

No, we do not agree.

It was wrong to board in international waters. Once those on board decided to attack, all bets were off. The story here should be that only nine were killed is the more important story here. Having watched every video that's been released so far, those on board are lucky that they only had 9 die.

When you decide to become a combatant against people who are better at it than you, when you are acting in defiance of what they've asked, you have no one to blame but yourself for getting killed.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa

Now, I know I bowed out, tired of the futility of debating with Pro-Zionist people, who appear very fundamentalist, in their view of the Middle East's problems, but I just had to comment.

Pasa.......you are amazing!!

[Pasadenacpl2]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

[69luvr]

Oh, I understand the effect it will have on the US, Tenni. Several things:

1. Do you honestly think any navy, hell, any 4 navies have the ability to blockade us?

2. We'd deplete resources...for awhile. It would actually force us to move ahead in new fuels and new ways of doing things. Innovation is what drives the US, always has been. As for other things, I'm ok with us losing a bit of world power. But, let me ask you, who will step in to take our place?

Who will step in to give the largest amount of both governmental and private aid to both industries and nations? Who will step in to at least try to curb the AIDS epidemic in Africa? Who will step in to feed nations in need? Who will the UN call on whenever it wants a watchdog? Who will defend NATO when Russia decides it no longer wants to play ball (and, if you're watching Putin, this will be within this decade)? Who will stop Iran when the UN finally decides that it was a mistake to allow Iran to go this far? What will Canada do when we no longer trade with you? What will Canada do when other nations decide it wants Canada's resources? We can defend our nation from invasion. Can you? Somehow, I doubt it.

You can villify the US all you want. It's easy to do when you live under the blanket and comfort of the protection we provide you. But, when push comes to shove, we have wielded our power with far more responsibility, and far more benevolence than any other comparable power in the history of the world. For every wrong you can show, I can show ten goods. My nation is not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than you, in your tin foil hat, paints it.

Kindly, and with respect, fuck off.

Pasa

WELL SAID! I agree with you 100 per cent!

[69luvr]

Well of course there were reports of "they shot first." No one who puts themselves in a boat to break a blockade is going to paint a rosy picture of those who are enforcing the blockade. I trust them to do one thing, and only one thing: to make every molehill into a mountain, and to outright lie if it will serve their purpose.

No, I don't believe them. I view them suspiciously. Just as I view reports that the flotilla boats had already entered Gazan waters and then were in the process of fleeing suspiciously.

Pasa

I'd love to know the person(s) who believe that shots rang out from the helicopter. Perhaps they could then furnish proof! Just like earlier in this thread someone FAILED TO SEE THE VIDEOS showing the"PEACE? ACTIVISTS" attacking soldiers holding onto a rope as they repeled from the helicopter. How convenient! So many haters in this world! Too bad they do not tell the truth in order to support their ridiculous assertions and alleged opinions! REUTERS NEWS AGENCY, another staple of liberal thinking printed doctored photos of the incident. They were forced to admit that the PEACE ACTIVISTS had knives in their hands! They edited that fact out in the photos.

[Canticle]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

No, Pasa, not quips. An observation. I guess that you would like all, who do not agree with you, to bow out. Well, heck, it doesn't happen that way. Of course, as an intelligent person, you will realise exactly what was meant by ''amazing,'' won't you? Yes, I am sure that you must.

Heph and Tenni, I have read your intelligent and very calmly made comments, with great interest. Thank you.

[69luvr]

No, Pasa, not quips. An observation. I guess that you would like all, who do not agree with you, to bow out. Well, heck, it doesn't happen that way. Of course, as an intelligent person, you will realise exactly what was meant by ''amazing,'' won't you? Yes, I am sure that you must.

Heph and Tenni, I have read your intelligent and very calmly made comments, with great interest. Thank you.

an observation as ridiculous as the REUTERS- doctored up photos that were printed worldwide.

Pasa I have read your VERY intelligent posts regarding this issue. I thank you for them. Too bad there are so many blind haters in this world. I know that you knew that they would attack you here and you were right!

[Pasadenacpl2]

No Canticle, I love it when I can debate people like Heph who don't threaten me or make snide comments while saying they're leaving. If you're bowing out, then do so. I never asked you to. But I respected it enough not to take parting shots at you. You, however, just had to come back to take one at me.

Go along, Canticle. Don't you have a report to Drew to make?

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

Let me see if I have this right. The people on the boats had no guns and the soldiers did. So WHO was it shot first?

Hmmm!

Give up Pasa. Even your own country admits that the Iraelis got it wrong. They used soldiers when customs officers would have been more appropriate even though these would have been illegal also.

Announced today by the USA that Israel will have to acquiesce to Arabs being allowed to re-settle back in Israel (rather than stay in the concentration camps as they are now).

[Hephaestion]

Thanks for the compliment Pasa - I hope that I don't let you down

[Pasadenacpl2]

I worded that poorly, Heph. And seeing how I did word it, that was silly of me.

I meant "fired before boarding." Yes, they fired...but they were being attacked.

Did you watch the videos of the melee? Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

BTW, Obama, yesterday, said that Israel has a right to ensure that Gaza can't import weapons. He also said that he would like Gazans to be able to live more freely, but that Israel's right to ensure their safety against weapons comes first.

Pasa

[tenni]

I know. I am, indeed, amazing. Thanks for noticing.

And you should have stayed out. I refrained from commenting on your final barrage of statements because you bowed out. And now you come back to make quips at me.

Pasa

LOL
You can also be quite funny...if I read with a specific typing voice inflection...lol

...with a different typing inflection....not so much...

* wonders if PASA's computer has typing inflections

[tenni]

I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?

[Canticle]

an observation as ridiculous as the REUTERS- doctored up photos that were printed worldwide.

Pasa I have read your VERY intelligent posts regarding this issue. I thank you for them. Too bad there are so many blind haters in this world. I know that you knew that they would attack you here and you were right!

How very odd

[Canticle]

No Canticle, I love it when I can debate people like Heph who don't threaten me or make snide comments while saying they're leaving. If you're bowing out, then do so. I never asked you to. But I respected it enough not to take parting shots at you. You, however, just had to come back to take one at me.

Go along, Canticle. Don't you have a report to Drew to make?

Pasa

Umm...who threatened you.....certainly not me! I guess it's Ok for you to call someone a racist and also anti-semitic. You have no idea what my race is, or my religion (at least a religion, which would be associated with my family). Your childish one liner, at the end of this post says it all...at least it does for me.

I could report you for calling me a racist and anti-semitic, for that is a slur upon my character, but I shall not, because I believe you have the right to call me those vile titles, which are not true. I think that I can leave the rest of the good people, upon the site, to gauge from my many posts, that I am in no way racist, anti-semitic, nor am I intolerant of other religions or other belief systems, whatever they may be.

I may not agree with them, but I would defend the individual's or a group's right to exist, how he/she/they wish and without persecution, torture, death, discrimination etc, etc, etc.

I started out, as a Christian, 40 years ago and the spiritual journey never ends....it changes....takes a slightly different pathway....but it never ends and it allows one freedom of thought and freedom of the mind, heart and soul

[Pasadenacpl2]

I may be wrong but am I noticing that those that support the Israeli's interpretation of this attack are from the southern US while those who tend to support that the Israeli's made a mistake tend to be from Canada and Britain?

US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military.

Correlation is a dangerous tool. Using correlation, one can show that there is an inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

Pasa