Gaza Aid Convoy

[Long Duck Dong]

Let me put this straight before you Duckie.. I AM an activist.. I dont sit at home all day and night simply writing futile posts to sites such as this.. I demonstrate and I act..it is the way I was raised and it is the way I live when the need arises.. I have risked arrest on picket lines, been faced with and indeed clattered by police batons and in France by a police riot shield.. I have lain down in front of police and military vehicles more than once and nop doubt shall do that again.. I have stood firm on a peaceful picket line as it has been driven at by vans and lorries.. I act..it puts my life at risk and my comrades put theirs at risk.. I have been struck and kicked, beaten and more than once hurt quite badly.. this also may happen again.. I will not raise my hand to any.. I am a pacifist and I believe in my pacifism absolutely.. what has happened this last week was appalling..we disagree as to who is the most likely guilty party.. no one can escape blame entirely but to blame those on the ship for the loss of life is a travesty.. if I had been on board I would have done what I suspect most did.. stood and awaited my fate.. that some stood up to them and defended themselves by weilding whatever came to hand I have no doubt on that also.. there is some anecdotal evidence that the Israeli's fired early before they were attacked.. unfortunately the video evidence is lying in a vault somewhere in Israel so we can never be entirely sure..

Collateral damage in a struggle is inevitable because of how our societies think and act.. the collateral damage in this case is the death of far too many people and injuries to many more.. no soldiers were killed and believe it or not for that I am thankful.. and not for the reason you may believe.. I just do not believe in the taking of life under any circumstances.. but collateral damage will happen and people will get hurt.. as long as we live in an armed world it will ere be thus.. but while I will never raise my hand to any.. sometimes the cause is just too important not to act and put our lives at risk.. I have done that in my own small way.. that I will do so again is likely.. but it was not the crews and those on board who put lives at risk and certainly did not take any.. that was down to quite another party.. and go to sea? Yes I would do it Duckie.. I love a nice cruise in the sun.. but the Med is also mighty cold in winter.. I have some quite sexy winter gear for that too.. for some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety..

right.... now check this out sea shepard

they are a anti whaling activist group that * gasp *... pride themselves on sinking ships, in harbour or out in the ocean.....

I talk about sinking ships and omg, its shameful and inhuman.... yet, here is a activist group doing the same bloody thing and people support them for doing it......
I guess it comes down to the reason you wanna sink a ship as to if its right or not......

now I do not disagree over who is responsibile for the 9 deaths.... personally I think that both parties were wrong..... BUT........

the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment

the aid shipment would have been transfered etc..... but no.... the activists are victims, the israelis are wrong yadda, yadda, yadda, ....and yet it could have all been avoided.... if the activists had just sailed to port like asked

[TwylaTwobits]

WARNING MIGHT OFFEND



A video a friend sent me in email. I am not claiming they are right for the words they put to the song but it certainly gives a different look, included is clips of the footage we have all seen. These people didn't hide who they were, their names are attached at the end of the vid complete with it showing which person is which. So watch it and watch them throwing the soldier over the side of the ship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

[Canticle]

right.... now check this out sea shepard

they are a anti whaling activist group that * gasp *... pride themselves on sinking ships, in harbour or out in the ocean.....

I talk about sinking ships and omg, its shameful and inhuman.... yet, here is a activist group doing the same bloody thing and people support them for doing it......
I guess it comes down to the reason you wanna sink a ship as to if its right or not......

now I do not disagree over who is responsibile for the 9 deaths.... personally I think that both parties were wrong..... BUT........

the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment

the aid shipment would have been transfered etc..... but no.... the activists are victims, the israelis are wrong yadda, yadda, yadda, ....and yet it could have all been avoided.... if the activists had just sailed to port like asked

I deplore the hunting of whales, the killing of baby seals, or the hunting of any wildlife and do applaud many of the animal activists, who fight, peacefully, against these things happening. I do agree with you that where an organisation of such activists, becomes violent (and this has happened in my locality), causing damage and possible danger to human life, this has to be deplored. However, such an organisation is not a sovereign state and I do believe that as such, their behaviour cannot be compared.

''the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment''

If the activists were hoping to deliver humanitarian aid and not arms, to Gaza, how could they have been trying to break a UN sanctioned blockage. Surely there is a difference between checking the cargo, of any ship and sending in armed commandos, who land from helicopters. Many countries carry out peaceful searches of ships' cargo, without resorting to the use of commandos.

[Long Duck Dong]

I deplore the hunting of whales, the killing of baby seals, or the hunting of any wildlife and do applaud many of the animal activists, who fight, peacefully, against these things happening. I do agree with you that where an organisation of such activists, becomes violent (and this has happened in my locality), causing damage and possible danger to human life, this has to be deplored. However, such an organisation is not a sovereign state and I do believe that as such, their behaviour cannot be compared.

''the activists should have not tried to break a UN sanctioned blockage ( UN security council resolution 1860, adopted towards the end of the conflict in Gaza in January 2009, called on all states to intensify efforts to "prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition" to Gaza. ) and under that israel was right to want to check the shipment''

If the activists were hoping to deliver humanitarian aid and not arms, to Gaza, how could they have been trying to break a UN sanctioned blockage. Surely there is a difference between checking the cargo, of any ship and sending in armed commandos, who land from helicopters. Many countries carry out peaceful searches of ships' cargo, without resorting to the use of commandos.

gee let me think..... maybe, israel wanted to check the cargo in port, hence they said bring the ship into port please....

the activists said, no thank you, we have a stand to make cos we are activists and activists need to make stands to look good in the eyes of the rest of the world

the israelis replied, well see, this is the issue, we have no proof that you are on a humanitarian mission, you have activists on board, you are refusing to stop and go to port, you intend to break thru a un sanctioned blockage and we can not check the cargo unless you go to port.....

the activists replied, gee well you see, we are activists, we do not know the meaning of go to port and not risk people, we only understand things like ignore naval ships that are carrying armed soldiers and placing ourselves and others at risk....

the israelis replied, well now, we are gonna lay around of bullets cross ya bow and if you refuse to stop, we will board you and take you into port...and since you are on a peace mission, there should be no issues....

the activists replied, no, we are activists, you board us, we will cry and stamp our feet and proclaim to the world how cruel and unfair that you are, and the un sanction doesn't apply to activists as we beleive we are exempt from rules and intelligent thinking and yes we are peaceful but happy to use force and place people at risk.... so board us if you want, we will act in a unpeaceful manner with weapons even tho we are on a peaceful mission..... btw, you stop us this time, we will be back again and again, with more ships cos we want to do things our way, it looks better on our resume....

the israelis replied, ok we are boarding you since you are peaceful but refusing to stop or go to port

activists replied, ok we are ready to be boarded, we are peacefully waiting with weapons, we have our video cams at the ready so we can claim victim status and we have CNN on speed dial so that way we can get max media attention..... btw can you please torture us for a few weeks and detain us for a couple of years, it makes for better conversation starters



gee canticle.... you tell me...... how the fuck do you check a few 100 ton of cargo in holds in 7 ocean going ships cos most of the important agencies can not do it, they require a ship in port
and most ships would head to port for a cargo check if they had nothing to hide anyway.....

unless you are activists with a agenda.....

[Canticle]

WARNING MIGHT OFFEND



A video a friend sent me in email. I am not claiming they are right for the words they put to the song but it certainly gives a different look, included is clips of the footage we have all seen. These people didn't hide who they were, their names are attached at the end of the vid complete with it showing which person is which. So watch it and watch them throwing the soldier over the side of the ship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

Yeah, saw that last night. Found it so distasteful and mocking and so conveniently and quickly arranged and videoed, that I decided, I would like to forget about it.

How can the snippets of video, obviously carefully edited, say anything about what happened, other than that the people on the boat looked desperate and scared, I don't know.

Soldiers could be seen coming down ropes, some of the people reacted and fought back and the same thing could have happened if the commandos, of any country had done the same thing.

As for the soldier being thrown from the deck. Well. when this sort of event happens and people feel the need to fight back, it's the kind of thing that happens.

The people involved in that song, should be ashamed of themselves and their mockery. They are not a good advertisement for Judaism or Israel.

[tenni]

"UN security council resolution 1860"
That is interesting. I didn't recall this but I googled it and what I found did not state anything about a blockade?

"The Resolution called for "an immediate ceasefire in Gaza leading to a full Israeli withdrawal, unimpeded provision through Gaza of food, fuel and medical treatment, and intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling." All members stressed the importance of an "immediate and durable ceasefire".
Ultimately, the resolution was unsuccessful as both Israel and Hamas ignored it and the fighting continued."

What I found on a UN ? website was the reaction to last week's incident.

At an earlier meeting Monday afternoon, Oscar Fernandez-Taranco, Assistant Secretary-General for Political Affairs, briefed the Council on the incident, reporting that Israeli naval forces had boarded a six-ship convoy, which had been heading towards Gaza. The stated purpose of the convoy was to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza and to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza, he said, making clear the United Nations has “no independent information on what transpired”.....n Mr. Fernandez Taranco’s view, today’s bloodshed would have been avoided if repeated calls on Israel to end the counterproductive and unacceptable blockade of Gaza had been heeded.

I found no UN motion supporting Israel blockading Gaza? I found UN motions opposing the blockade. Please clarify.

[Canticle]

gee let me think..... maybe, israel wanted to check the cargo in port, hence they said bring the ship into port please....

the activists said, no thank you, we have a stand to make cos we are activists and activists need to make stands to look good in the eyes of the rest of the world

the israelis replied, well see, this is the issue, we have no proof that you are on a humanitarian mission, you have activists on board, you are refusing to stop and go to port, you intend to break thru a un sanctioned blockage and we can not check the cargo unless you go to port.....

the activists replied, gee well you see, we are activists, we do not know the meaning of go to port and not risk people, we only understand things like ignore naval ships that are carrying armed soldiers and placing ourselves and others at risk....

the israelis replied, well now, we are gonna lay around of bullets cross ya bow and if you refuse to stop, we will board you and take you into port...and since you are on a peace mission, there should be no issues....

the activists replied, no, we are activists, you board us, we will cry and stamp our feet and proclaim to the world how cruel and unfair that you are, and the un sanction doesn't apply to activists as we beleive we are exempt from rules and intelligent thinking and yes we are peaceful but happy to use force and place people at risk.... so board us if you want, we will act in a unpeaceful manner with weapons even tho we are on a peaceful mission..... btw, you stop us this time, we will be back again and again, with more ships cos we want to do things our way, it looks better on our resume....

the israelis replied, ok we are boarding you since you are peaceful but refusing to stop or go to port

activists replied, ok we are ready to be boarded, we are peacefully waiting with weapons, we have our video cams at the ready so we can claim victim status and we have CNN on speed dial so that way we can get max media attention..... btw can you please torture us for a few weeks and detain us for a couple of years, it makes for better conversation starters



gee canticle.... you tell me...... how the fuck do you check a few 100 ton of cargo in holds in 7 ocean going ships cos most of the important agencies can not do it, they require a ship in port
and most ships would head to port for a cargo check if they had nothing to hide anyway.....

unless you are activists with a agenda.....

Well, Gee LDD, I have watched footage of British officials checking a ships' cargo and on the high seas. And heck...it's not as if it was that big a ship. And maybe the people on the aid ship.....I am not going to call them activists.....didn't feel that they could trust the Israelis.

This goes around in circles and keeps coming back to the same things again and again. I get told I didn't answer a question, when it wasn't my post being replied to, I get called a racist and anti-semitic (which I am not), by someone who has made, what I would call, racially intolerant and rather un-Christian remarks about Islam and ridding the world of it and getting rid of Iran, but somehow that is meant to be OK and people are not meant to criticise the State of Israel.

The current problems in the Middle east, began a long time ago. I guess the fledgling UN could be blamed, but the people who made decisions back then, are long gone.....but the problems caused by their decisions and actions, go on and on.

When I was at school, I had Christian (meaning Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jevohahs Witness), Hindu, Sikh, Muslim friends. We all got along together. Another of my friends was part Indian. I had friends with no belief at all...no religion. We got on. The ones who kept themselves to themselves, most of the time, but not always, were the black girls and the Jewish girls. Now we never thought of this as a racial thing. even at 14, 15, 16. I think we saw it as more of a cultural thing. we still got on. If only the world was like that.

That is why, to be called racist and anti-semitic, is an insult. I've known truly racist people and the comments they make are vile. We all may find things which we disapprove about, in any religion or culture, but this does not make us full of hate.

I know someone who detests Islam and I am pretty sure that person feels the same way about Arabs, even though it's not just Arabs, who are Muslim. Some of the things that person says are so intolerant, it shocked me and their views on faith of any sort can be pretty insulting. I've disagreed with people of all religions, but never insulted their personal belief...but I have had so called intellectually superior atheists call me delusional and mad and requiring treatment......just because I have beliefs and I have seen the same insults poured out to others. Strange thing is...I'd never insult an atheist and their disbelief.

Wishing that Islam could be wiped from the face of the earth is wrong. Saying one would like to see a certain country bombed out of existence is wrong. Being anti-semitic, or racist, is wrong, but it is not wrong to call the state of Israel out on much of it's behaviour. And it is not right for a world power to side with Israel and almost never criticise it. It seems that people from across the pond, almost take it as a personal insult, if the state of Israel is criticised. That kind of reaction, I frankly find rather crazy.

OK...LDD...I've gone off at a tangent....but what the heck.....people seem to have selective reading anyways.

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, Gee LDD, I have watched footage of British officials checking a ships' cargo and on the high seas. And heck...it's not as if it was that big a ship. And maybe the people on the aid ship.....I am not going to call them activists.....didn't feel that they could trust the Israelis.

This goes around in circles and keeps coming back to the same things again and again. I get told I didn't answer a question, when it wasn't my post being replied to, I get called a racist and anti-semitic (which I am not), by someone who has made, what I would call, racially intolerant and rather un-Christian remarks about Islam and ridding the world of it and getting rid of Iran, but somehow that is meant to be OK and people are not meant to criticise the State of Israel.

The current problems in the Middle east, began a long time ago. I guess the fledgling UN could be blamed, but the people who made decisions back then, are long gone.....but the problems caused by their decisions and actions, go on and on.

When I was at school, I had Christian (meaning Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jevohahs Witness), Hindu, Sikh, Muslim friends. We all got along together. Another of my friends was part Indian. I had friends with no belief at all...no religion. We got on. The ones who kept themselves to themselves, most of the time, but not always, were the black girls and the Jewish girls. Now we never thought of this as a racial thing. even at 14, 15, 16. I think we saw it as more of a cultural thing. we still got on. If only the world was like that.

That is why, to be called racist and anti-semitic, is an insult. I've known truly racist people and the comments they make are vile. We all may find things which we disapprove about, in any religion or culture, but this does not make us full of hate.

I know someone who detests Islam and I am pretty sure that person feels the same way about Arabs, even though it's not just Arabs, who are Muslim. Some of the things that person says are so intolerant, it shocked me and their views on faith of any sort can be pretty insulting. I've disagreed with people of all religions, but never insulted their personal belief...but I have had so called intellectually superior atheists call me delusional and mad and requiring treatment......just because I have beliefs and I have seen the same insults poured out to others. Strange thing is...I'd never insult an atheist and their disbelief.

Wishing that Islam could be wiped from the face of the earth is wrong. Saying one would like to see a certain country bombed out of existence is wrong. Being anti-semitic, or racist, is wrong, but it is not wrong to call the state of Israel out on much of it's behaviour. And it is not right for a world power to side with Israel and almost never criticise it. It seems that people from across the pond, almost take it as a personal insult, if the state of Israel is criticised. That kind of reaction, I frankly find rather crazy.

OK...LDD...I've gone off at a tangent....but what the heck.....people seem to have selective reading anyways.

do you have any idea about weaponry and armaments ????

lil hint, you can hide a gun and bullets in a wheelchair frame.... fuel and sugar and powered soap can make...... etc etc....

there is a reason why israel wanted to check the shipments, they were not looking for weapons of mass destruction.... they were looking for dismantled armaments and objects used to assemble weapons.....

this is the difference between a arm chair web surfing history buff and a person with knowledge and experience in the areas of weaponry and armaments... one of us actually understands what the hell israel was up to.... the other is quoting history and have no idea what the hell is actually going on at ground level...

[richarddennis]

It's time for USA to fly in food & medical supplies on a regular basis to Palestine, just like we once did to help Germany that was blockaded by Russia.

For less than 1/10 of 1% of our yearly "budget" to Israel, the Palestinians could eat for 5 years!

[Long Duck Dong]

"UN security council resolution 1860"
That is interesting. I didn't recall this but I googled it and what I found did not state anything about a blockade?

"The Resolution called for "an immediate ceasefire in Gaza leading to a full Israeli withdrawal, unimpeded provision through Gaza of food, fuel and medical treatment, and intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling." All members stressed the importance of an "immediate and durable ceasefire".
Ultimately, the resolution was unsuccessful as both Israel and Hamas ignored it and the fighting continued."

What I found on a UN ? website was the reaction to last week's incident.

At an earlier meeting Monday afternoon, Oscar Fernandez-Taranco, Assistant Secretary-General for Political Affairs, briefed the Council on the incident, reporting that Israeli naval forces had boarded a six-ship convoy, which had been heading towards Gaza. The stated purpose of the convoy was to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza and to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza, he said, making clear the United Nations has “no independent information on what transpired”.....n Mr. Fernandez Taranco’s view, today’s bloodshed would have been avoided if repeated calls on Israel to end the counterproductive and unacceptable blockade of Gaza had been heeded.

I found no UN motion supporting Israel blockading Gaza? I found UN motions opposing the blockade. Please clarify.

intensified international arrangements to prevent arms and ammunition smuggling.

thats what the blockage is.... its there to stop prevent arms and ammunition, not aid, thats why israel was happy to allow the transfer of aid after the convoy had been checked......

there is one that exists from way back that is the cornerstone for peace treaty negotiations ..
UNSC 242

Resolution 242 is one of the most commonly referred UN resolutions to end the Arab–Israeli conflict, and the basis of later negotiations between the parties. its interesting to see what groups refused to accept it.....

[Pasadenacpl2]

I have made no statements that are anti-arab. I have made two statements that say I'd be happy to see Iran go away. They are an enemy of my nation, an enemy of Israel, and an enemy of peace not only in their region, but in the world. Iran supplies not only Hammas, but also Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Add to that their race to get nuclear weapons and yes, I want them gone.

I have no high ideals when it comes to dealing in world politics. Some states are enemies to peace. Some nations are enemies of mine. It's not racist to root for my team, nor to hope for the enemy to be defeated.

Iran is an enemy. I hope for their destruction as a nation, because their existence is dangerous to my own. That's not racist, it's honest and pragmatic. Take the exact same traits and give them to any other nation, and I'd feel the same way.

You don't like it. That's fine. You support terrorists (Hamas) so I'm not surprised we don't see eye to eye. But, don't think you get to support terrorists who have AS THEIR STATED GOAL the genocide of the Jews and not get called a racist.

Anyone who supports Hamas is supporting genocide (in intent, they don't have the capability to do it). You support Hamas, I call you a racist. It's pretty simple. If you aid Hamas, you are aiding terrorists and are a racist. Those are not negotiable, and you can't ride both sides of the fence. Hamas is an organization that bankrolls suicide bombers, shooting rockets into cities, blowing up discotheques, blowing up nurseries, and various other terrorist activities. They hide their 'soldiers' behind civilians, using them as shields. There is no honor, and no moral equivalency. Israel isn't perfect, but they look like St. Peter compared to Hamas.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687

Pasa

[Canticle]

do you have any idea about weaponry and armaments ????

lil hint, you can hide a gun and bullets in a wheelchair frame.... fuel and sugar and powered soap can make...... etc etc....

there is a reason why israel wanted to check the shipments, they were not looking for weapons of mass destruction.... they were looking for dismantled armaments and objects used to assemble weapons.....

this is the difference between a arm chair web surfing history buff and a person with knowledge and experience in the areas of weaponry and armaments... one of us actually understands what the hell israel was up to.... the other is quoting history and have no idea what the hell is actually going on at ground level...

You were a soldier. You have told us that on more than one occasion. Weere you an arms expert? Did you see any action, in combat...etc.

Now you seem to know exactly what israel was/is looking for. Wow, the way to do that is to storm a ship, with commandos, fully armed and being dramatically dropped, via ropes (I am sure that they were more than ropes), it really is the way.

History and what was done 62 years ago, is the reason things are like they are right now.

And pleeeeeeaaaasssseee....credit me for some intellect (which, i have in abundance), i am noy an armchair Googler. Perish the thought.

[TwylaTwobits]

Hrm...seems Egypt isn't allowing aid in by land, either. Wonder why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687

Pasa

Interesting, Pasa. Love the quote calling the nation of Israel a "Zionist Project" Did you see this link on the same page?

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=155414

Apparently Iran's president is once again denying there was ever a holocaust, that it was used as a false pretext to create Israel.

[Long Duck Dong]

You were a soldier. You have told us that on more than one occasion. Weere you an arms expert? Did you see any action, in combat...etc.

Now you seem to know exactly what israel was/is looking for. Wow, the way to do that is to storm a ship, with commandos, fully armed and being dramatically dropped, via ropes (I am sure that they were more than ropes), it really is the way.

History and what was done 62 years ago, is the reason things are like they are right now.

And pleeeeeeaaaasssseee....credit me for some intellect (which, i have in abundance), i am noy an armchair Googler. Perish the thought.

yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal

you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn
why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....
now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances

israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....

its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......

btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship, so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....

btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... not a armchair googler..... the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....

[darkeyes]

When 3/4 of your posts consist of "well said" and the rest are Anti-semetic claptrap, you become less and less relevant. And, no, I am not interested in your word games. If you wish me to simply call you a racist jew hater, I can do that too.
But, your rhetoric goes beyond simply discussing world events. You use similar phraseology and tone to those who were trying to drive anti Jew fears in the 30s.

If I ever read you decrying racism again, I wil call you out as a hypocrite.

Pasa

Far be it for me to question your good judgement but I haven't seen much racist feeling emanating from Canticle.. a great deal of criticsm of the Israeli state and its apparatus, and support for Palestinian arabs.. but racist feeling toward Israelis or Jews? Modern day arabs remain much more semite than the vast majority of Jewish people, remember that....if I had seen or believed that she was anti semetic or anti Jewish then I would have been much more critical and condemnatory than you will ever be.. you still confuse distaste for the state with distaste for its people..

[Canticle]

''I have made no statements that are anti-arab.''

I'll have to go through the thread and check.

''I have made two statements that say I'd be happy to see Iran go away. They are an enemy of my nation, an enemy of Israel, and an enemy of peace not only in their region, but in the world. Iran supplies not only Hammas, but also Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Add to that their race to get nuclear weapons and yes, I want them gone.''

Do you remember when the Russians were in Afghanistan fighting a futile war, after they were asked for help, by the Afghanistan Government of the time. Osam bin Laden, was one of the many Muslims fighting with the Mujad Hadin (or at least helping to finance it, being a wealthy Saudi), and then the government, of your country (along with a few others, I am sure), helped arm those bloodthirsty bastards.

If they captured a Russian soldier, they very often, wouldn't kill him....but skin him, from the waist up......nice death...eh what!!!!!! Those Mujad Hadin won that war, after the Russians finally pulled out, realising that they were fighting for nothing. Twenty years later, those Western armed ''freedom fighters'' become the enemy and your country and mine invaded Afghanistan.

No one will win. Afghanistan has never been conquered.....not by the west. I get sick of hearing of more and more soldiers dying. We had a funeral, with full military honours, last week, at one of my local churches, for a lad my sons were at school with. The west is responsible for this whole fucked up situation......from 1948 onwards....in different parts of the Middle East and the rest of the world.....Well. we could go on forever.

Anyone who doesn't agree with ''the American way,'' seems to be considered an enemy. The USA have got over the fear of Communism and all the hysteria of the 1950s and the cold war and believing that there was a red under every bed....or have they. Now the new enemy is Islam...and of course the friend has always been Israel...and for many reasons.

So, Iran supplies Al Quaeda and Hamas with arms......don't forget the west armed the Mujad Hadin. The West sells arms to other countries.....Iraq was one...when Saddam Hussein was considered not so bad and Iran, too. In fact, when Iraq and Iran were at war, so many years ago, they were fighting one another, with arms supplied by the same people!

''I have no high ideals when it comes to dealing in world politics. Some states are enemies to peace. Some nations are enemies of mine. It's not racist to root for my team, nor to hope for the enemy to be defeated.''

You believe some states are an enemy to world peace. Some people would say, that the USA has become so powerful, it is a threat to world peace. You actually think of Iran, as your own personal enemy....Wow....that is taking nationalism, to a slightly over the top stage...in my eyes. To refer to, supporting your country, when it is at war as ''rooting for my team,'' is a blase thing to say. No one wins in war. Just thousands of innocent people, suffer and die and become displaced.

''Iran is an enemy. I hope for their destruction as a nation, because their existence is dangerous to my own. That's not racist, it's honest and pragmatic. Take the exact same traits and give them to any other nation, and I'd feel the same way.''

It is a terrible thing to say, because in that destruction, thousands would die. Innocent people. And then the victors would bankrupt themselves rebuilding the country.

They are the enemy, because you have been taught that they are the enemy. I think many western countries want the situation in the Middle East, to stay the way it is. That, like the war for oil, there is a more sinister motive. An unsettled Middle East is a useful cover for other things, happening in the world.

''You don't like it. That's fine. You support terrorists (Hamas) so I'm not surprised we don't see eye to eye. But, don't think you get to support terrorists who have AS THEIR STATED GOAL the genocide of the Jews and not get called a racist.''

I don't support terrorists, so don't try to put words into my mouth. I support human rights and the rights of a people displaced from their homelands, so many years ago, so that an artificial state could be created. The west caused the problems in Afghanistan and contributed to the problems with Iraq and certainly with it's attitude towards Iran. I am no lover of that regime, but I know that any change has to come from within, not from another gung ho war. Iraq is a mess and so is Afghanistan.

Don't call me a terrorist lover, or a racist, or anti-semitic, because I am not. I could say that you, hoping Iran, a country with an ancient civilsation, be destroyed, is racist, because such destruction would lead to the mass death of thousands of innocent men, women and children......or do you think that every Iranian is a terrorist???????

''Anyone who supports Hamas is supporting genocide (in intent, they don't have the capability to do it).''

Rubbish and a lie...I do not support Hamas

''You support Hamas, I call you a racist. It's pretty simple. If you aid Hamas, you are aiding terrorists and are a racist.''

You are one insulting person. You should be ashamed.

''Those are not negotiable, and you can't ride both sides of the fence.''

Thankfully, I do not need the local Pastor, government propaganda and biased reporting, to make me decide what I think or believe. I believe in innocent people being treated like human beings and not as mocked in that horrendous song, that the video link, earlier, led to.

''Hamas is an organization that bankrolls suicide bombers, shooting rockets into cities, blowing up discotheques, blowing up nurseries, and various other terrorist activities. They hide their 'soldiers' behind civilians, using them as shields. There is no honor, and no moral equivalency.''

Yes, the terrorist forces, as you call them, are evil......but to many of the people....they are the only ones looking out for them. You are obviously of the opinion that the creation of the state of Israel and the displacement of so many Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, was an Ok thing to do. You come over, to me, as someone who doesn't think that those people matter. After all...earlier, you even tried to dismiss the subject of their displacement, by saying that they were nomads. Great humanitarian there....not.

''Israel isn't perfect, but they look like St. Peter compared to Hamas.''

No, Israel is not perfect. It is guilty of racism, itself. It doesn't want peace, anymore than any terrorists do. Israeli dissidents are treated severely. they build a wall across what is a holy land for three separate religions and they think thaat they can do exactly as they like.....purely because of a belief in some God given right.

And St Peter was far from perfect. He was actually rather unreliable and also a mysoginist. I guess what you know about him depends on which gospels you read. I wouldn't put much store, personally, on the reported words of Jesus, asking Peter to lead his sheep, when the very early church was probably run by James, the brother of Jesus, with Mary Magdalene, playing a fairly important part.

Don't call me a lover of terrorists.......I lived through three decades of the IRA bombing Northern Ireland and main land Britain, blowing up a government Minister, Airey Neve and mudering an elderly member of the royal family, by cowardly blowing his holiday boat up, killing him, his grandson, his daughter's mother-in-law and a local boy who helped keep the boat clean, in his holidays. That man was Earl Mountbatten of Burma. And all the time American Irish citizens, were sending money to Ireland to help the republican cause.

Don't call me a racist...I am not one.

Don't call me anti-semitic.....for I am not.

.

[Canticle]

''yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal''

Bully for you LDD

''you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn''

helps though...eh what!!

''why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....''

Well maybe they shouldn't have bulldozed so many Palestinian homes, so that the mmigrant Israelis, could build their homes on palestinian land. perhaps they would like to rebuild them....supplying their own workmen and cement etc.

Oh, and yeah, I did know.

''now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances''

Oh, Yes.....we know how primitive, it was thought, that the North Vietnamese were, but they had underground hospitals and supply tunnels, which went right under american positions and they were highly trained, not primitive in any way. They knew their land, just as those rebels in Afghanistan, do. They could stand the climate and they believed in what they were fighting for.

''israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....''

Who has reported this.......those on board the ships, the Israeli propaganda merchants or Israeli friendly news media. Or have you been looking at other forms of information.

''its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......''

Oh, pleeeeaaassseee................

''btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship,''

Are you trying to add a little levity to this post, or are you being patronising?

''so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....''

Yes....the more dramatic...the better......to be expected.

''btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... ''

You think I get my history on line....Ye gads....what an insult.....and laughable.

''not a armchair googler.....''

Oh, goodie!!!

''the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....''

Don't you think I read newspapers? Don't you think I watch the news....or any relavent programmes...and of course.....any other sources of info?

Laughable.

[darkeyes]

"I have no enemies. People may perceive me as theirs, but I consider none as mine. My nation may tell me that I have an enemy, but that enemy is not my enemy. My hand is offered to all and if they reject it, then still am I their friend. My friends may strike me down, yet friends they remain."

Just the musing of a young girl back n 1994 written in a school jotter back in 1994 after she had been battered hell out of by another girl in the Meadows..

[Canticle]

"I have no enemies. People may perceive me as theirs, but I consider none as mine. My nation may tell me that I have an enemy, but that enemy is not my enemy. My hand is offered to all and if they reject it, then still am I their friend. My friends may strike me down, yet friends they remain."

Just the musing of a young girl back n 1994 written in a school jotter back in 1994 after she had been battered hell out of by another girl in the Meadows..

And beautifully written too, Fran

[Canticle]

Far be it for me to question your good judgement but I haven't seen much racist feeling emanating from Canticle.. a great deal of criticsm of the Israeli state and its apparatus, and support for Palestinian arabs.. but racist feeling toward Israelis or Jews? Modern day arabs remain much more semite than the vast majority of Jewish people, remember that....if I had seen or believed that she was anti semetic or anti Jewish then I would have been much more critical and condemnatory than you will ever be.. you still confuse distaste for the state with distaste for its people..

Thank you Fran......Hugs ya like a sister...None of the mother mullarkey (sp)...I'm far too young to be a mothery sort...anyway...i've got one daughter....she's enough on her own.

[Hephaestion]

1) Soldier shoot that thing. It is not a person. It is your enemy.
Sir! Yes Sir!

2) One of the WW1 poets wrote about the a French infantryman who had doubts and came face to face with a German soldier. The two human beings stood there unable to move until the French soldier composed himself quicker. The last line form memory is a sad realisation "I can kill Mamon I can kill"

3) One of our security guards authorized unresonable searches and identity checks which I challenged. IN the face to face argument with this ex-soldier I asked whether if orderd to jump off a cliff, the order would be carried out. The answere was an affirmative YES! SO I pointed out that that was the difference between a machine and a thinking person (incidentally, the management sided with me).

LDD - it is not guns that kill. It is mindless W*****s with guns.

.

[Long Duck Dong]

''yes, I have trained in weapon smith skills.. and yes I have served actively and thats all I can or will reveal''

Bully for you LDD

''you do not need to be a trained expert to create weapons and armaments... any person with google can learn''

helps though...eh what!!

''why the hell do you think israel is refusing cement to be sent to gaza.... its like fertilizer.... it can be used to make explosives.....''

Well maybe they shouldn't have bulldozed so many Palestinian homes, so that the mmigrant Israelis, could build their homes on palestinian land. perhaps they would like to rebuild them....supplying their own workmen and cement etc.

Oh, and yeah, I did know.

''now if you would like to think about the VC in nam and the way they kicked the ass of fully armed and trained soldiers in the field..... in a lot of cases, without the advanced weaponry of the armed forces... that may give you some idea about just how dangerous people can be in the right circumstances''

Oh, Yes.....we know how primitive, it was thought, that the North Vietnamese were, but they had underground hospitals and supply tunnels, which went right under american positions and they were highly trained, not primitive in any way. They knew their land, just as those rebels in Afghanistan, do. They could stand the climate and they believed in what they were fighting for.

''israel dropped on the ships the way they did, cos the ships would not stop on request...... and ignored shots across the bow as a warning to stop the ships and the ships still refused to stop.....''

Who has reported this.......those on board the ships, the Israeli propaganda merchants or Israeli friendly news media. Or have you been looking at other forms of information.

''its a bit like the police using road spikes to stop cars that will not stop.... when the directive to stop fails, then you get to the next level to stop the target.......''

Oh, pleeeeaaassseee................

''btw, you can not use road spikes on a ship,''

Are you trying to add a little levity to this post, or are you being patronising?

''so as most people would understand.... there is two ways to board a ship in movement and in water.... one is by boat, the other is by air...... the israeli used the air drop.. as the ships refused to stop.....''

Yes....the more dramatic...the better......to be expected.

''btw, I refered to you as a arm chair web surfing history buff..... ''

You think I get my history on line....Ye gads....what an insult.....and laughable.

''not a armchair googler.....''

Oh, goodie!!!

''the difference is that I was including newspapers, tv programmes and any other sources of info.....''

Don't you think I read newspapers? Don't you think I watch the news....or any relavent programmes...and of course.....any other sources of info?

Laughable.

ok.... to address your multi point wall of text .....

bully to me for having experience.....and knowledge of military actions...
that is why I am talking about the israeli boarding of the ship and the way it was conducted.... its something I happen to know about and understand a lot about......

nobody needs to be a trained expert in armaments to create explosives.... the average school kid is taught the basic knowledge in science class.... or do you not realise that making hokey pokey is a form of explosive class reaction of chemicals ?????

cement is not the only type of building supply that can be sent.... plastercrete is a non explosive base chemical that can be used instead and does the same bloody job.....

the VC were not highly trained, christ the vets that were there, can tell you that, I lived with a ex nam vet that drilled me in the ways of the vc and how basic knowledge can make anybody highly proficient in ways of combat and survival
the tunnelers in colditz were not highly trained cavers, they merely understood to make a tunnel you dig and board up the tunnels.... the vc are no different.....
and nor is the gaza strip.... hence the 300 odd tunnels that have been dug under the gaza strip

who reported the shots ???? both groups.... there are a number of reports of shots fired BEFORE the boarding.... and that has come from a number of sources.... besides how could the activists refuse to stop the bloody ships if they were not told to stop the ships.....
they were told, ordered and then shots were fired across the bow and the activists refused to stop sailing, as was their intention before they left on the trip and the activists stated that they intended to break the blockade.....


the more dramatic the better ????? yeah.... I quess they should have used a ladder instead.....
ranticle, grow a brain will you, if you have no landing pad on a ship, and the ship will not stop to be boarded, of course you will rappel to the deck.... that is the same way that search and rescue groups do it when they can not board a ship.....
bloody S&R guys being more dramatic, sighs.... what are they thinking ... sighs....
try the fact its the easiest way to board ships that can not be boarded by boat
( yes the sarcasm there is so thick, you could bottle it )

I never said you limit your knowledge gaining to google.... I was refering to the fact that you use multi forms of media for your info or lack of it.....
you are the one that misread and misinterpreted it

now, please before you create another 15 post run or a wall of text to rival the berlin wall, can you please check that when you pick holes in what i say... that you have some semblance of understanding of the way things work.....

so let me condense my post down
plastercrete can be used instead of cement..
S&R crews also board ships by rappeling, its not dramatic, its often the only way
anybody can create explosives, including school kids
any person can be dangerous, they do not need weapons
tunneling is as simple as digging a hole
and you really need to learn more about some things before you post about them

and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....

can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble

[Long Duck Dong]

1)

LDD - it is not guns that kill. It is mindless W*****s with guns.

.

oh heph baby, I love you.... so much.....

that single line sums up how I feel about guns and weapons, even tho I own guns and am experienced in their usage...

[Pasadenacpl2]

To answer Canticle's only really important response...Yes, I'm perfectly fine with the creation of Isreal. I don't use it as the automatic excuse for terrorists.

Israel is a nation. The region can either make nice with them or suffer tbe conequences for not doing so. Too bad Hamas and the PLA/PLO decided to make their stated goal the genocide of the Jewish people. They made a choice. They chose to live in war rather than in peace. And they chose to do so as terrorists.

Choices have consequences. Some choices have consequences fr others who weren't even around to make the choice. They should have been wiser. They weren't. Oh well, sucks to be their kids.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

oh heph baby, I love you.... so much.....

that single line sums up how I feel about guns and weapons, even tho I own guns and am experienced in their usage...

Heph is right Duckie I agree.. and since there are so many mindless w*****s, its good enough reason to to allow them anywhere near people..

[darkeyes]

and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....

can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble

This is somewhat contemptuous and a bit cheeky Duckie.. people argue as they are able, or believe works for them.. some are better than others at it, and am uncomfortable with the single line breakdown also, but its a stylistic thing with which she is apparently comfortable... you are not unknown yourself for lack of brevity, and great walls of text are commonplace in your own posts.. and there are times darling, when your own lack a certain clarity as indeed in your own way once or twice you have accepted... added to a fair amount of dribble..

So I suggest you get out of the glasshouse before you chuck your next stone..

[darkeyes]

To answer Canticle's only really important response...Yes, I'm perfectly fine with the creation of Isreal. I don't use it as the automatic excuse for terrorists.

Israel is a nation. The region can either make nice with them or suffer tbe conequences for not doing so. Too bad Hamas and the PLA/PLO decided to make their stated goal the genocide of the Jewish people. They made a choice. They chose to live in war rather than in peace. And they chose to do so as terrorists.

Choices have consequences. Some choices have consequences fr others who weren't even around to make the choice. They should have been wiser. They weren't. Oh well, sucks to be their kids.

Pasa

As I understand it, the aim of Hamas is not genocide of the Jewish people but the replacement of the state of Israel with a muslim state which I believe to be a legitimate if somewhat undesirable aim.. every bit as much as Israel being the Jewish state it is.. some people may read that as a threat of genocide but Im afraid I do not.. it is certainly less of a threat of genocide than your occasional call to Nuke the fuck out of Iran and anyone else you dont like if they don't behave theselves in accord with the wishes of the US and Israel...

Choices do have consequences.. and they always have consequences not just for those that make the choice. Maybe Israel, and the United States should remember that in the not too distant future..

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree fran, my posts can leave a lot to answer for.....

but I am not known as a person that will multi quote a persons post just so I can add childish dribble.....
I am no great communicator, but at least I am a lil more respectful of peoples questions

canticle asked questions of me, I answered them in post # 256 and well, canticles responses ( #259 ) to most of my replies... well..... hardly intelligent were they or needed

it indicates a person that lacks the intelligence to create a post of their own and express their thoughts ... instead they need to disect another persons posts and comment on every lil part and thats where the dribble comes into it.....as they lack anything intelligent to say for every quoted part

all I am asking if canticle needs to post dribble, please do it to others posts, as I perfer not to reread my own replies covered in dribble....

[hardnbubbly]

This has honestly become pointless. It feels like some are out there to "win" arguments and repeat propaganda rather than be genuinely concerned for either Israelis or Palestinians.

I guess to some whoever has the bigger guns prevails.