Gaza Aid Convoy

[tenni]

OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni

Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing. Canticle for showing that she has no understanding and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history. We'll just leave it at: There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.

Pasa

Pasa
I don't think that it is appropriate for you to post that Canticle and I are bashing the US. We simply disputed a myth that some US niaive people seem to believe in. We did not introduce a braggard statement about the superiority of the US. It was one of your own people who introduced the US into this thread. Speak to them privately. Do you seriously believe in what they wrote? Correspond privately with them then and let's keep this thread on the topic...which is not about your country.

[Canticle]

''OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni''

Are you telling people what to do?????

''Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing.''

Can't you bear to have your country criticised? Is it not allowed? I criticise my country all the time. Perhaps you should look inwardly, in a different way, than Americans, usually seem to do, and do a bit of self criticism.

Tenni can bash the UK any time he likes....I won't mind. If I think he is wrong...I'll tell him and I think he will respect the response he gets. USA bashing, indeed! How childish to say that is what was done. There is something wrong..when a country and it's people can't take criticism.

''Canticle for showing that she has no understanding beyond what her tele tells her and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history.''

You're not trying to suggest, that I am some kind of Stepford wife...are you? I don't watch television (My class of person would never refer to a television as ''tele'') and one of the subjects, I am most passionate about, is history.

''We'll just leave it at:''

No, we won't.

Do not call think that you can gauge my intellect, just because you happen to be a teacher. That means s*d all, in the scheme of things. I reckon that I probably understand more than you, about many things....things you'd probably never fathom.

''There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.''

Google the British Mandate in Palestine.....I've copied and pasted some bits. Thought you'd like them. There are lots more to read.

How do you know that there was an Israel, before any other countries were formed. You are not going by the Bible, are you and by your religious belief? If you are, then that would be a very silly thing to do, because most of what has been written in the Bible.....Old Testament or New Testament, was made up, written as rules and regulations, written to inspire, written as history, written, because it was a jolly good story. It's been mistranslated, added to and mistranslated again and also altered to suit various ruling powers.

Israel....even if the Bible was right, had not existed as a country...as a civilisation for two thousand years. The creation of the State of Israel was artficial and did not take into consideration the other peoples of the area.....namely.....the Palestinians.....both Christian and Muslim. I take it that you did know, that there were Christian Palestinians. Some of them have probably been terrorists, too. Makes you think....doesn't it!!!

''Question of the Day for everyone: If Israel offered to have a two state peace offering, complete with rebuilding Gaza, and surrendering the West Bank, and offered to build roads and hospitals as well, and said "we want to live in peace."...why didn't the Palestinians take the deal?''

Maybe they just didn't trust the Israelis and maybe they didn't want this beneficial.....yet shoot 'em first, ask questions later, land, to be paying for anything so that they would then be considered owing something to Israe,l in some form.

''When you answer that question, and the answer is dark and ugly and Pro-Palestinians won't want to actually answer it, you will understand why there is unrest in the middle east. When you further understand that Iran, and Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest don't give a rats ass about Palestine except that they can be used as a pawn, the situation becomes even more clear.''

The dark and ugly Pro-Palestinian (well, this one), is actually very pretty and quite a few people think so. This dark and ugly one, is pro the freedom of all humans and doesn't think any peoples should be forced off their land and end up in refugee camps, for years, whilst the artificially created state, ships in non natives and populates the country.

You will google Mordechai Vanunu......won't you and see how he was treated? He's a Christian, like yourself....a convert.

''Pasa''

Love and kisses......C

''British Mandate for Palestine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to:navigation, search
Mandate for Palestine
الانتداب البريطاني على فلسطين
המנדט הבריטי על פלשתינה א"י
Mandate of the United Kingdom
←
1920–1948 →

→

→




Flag

The borders of the British Mandate
Capital Jerusalem
Language(s) English, Arabic, Hebrew
Political structure League of Nations Mandate
High Commissioners
- 1920–1925 Sir Herbert Louis Samuel
- 1945–1948 Sir Alan G. Cunningham
Historical era Interwar Period
- Mandate assigned 25 April 1920
- Britain officially assumes control 29 September 1923
- Transjordanian independence 25 May 1946
- Founding of Israel 14 May 1948
Currency Palestinian pound


This article deals with the Mandate instrument passed by the League of Nations granting Britain a mandate over the area presently occupied by Israel and Palestine. For a history of the period, see Mandate Palestine.
The British Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Palestine Mandate and the British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal instrument for the administration of Palestine formally approved by the League of Nations in June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917–1948. With the League of Nations' consent, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from Hijaz.[1] The preamble of the mandate declared:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[2]

The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[3]''


''What is the overview of the Mandate Period?
Geographical Distribution of the Mandate

In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." (See What was the British Mandate?.)

The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.

In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.

The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.

The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.

Breaking this down into a table:

Zone Size in Sq. Km. Percent of Total Control in 1948
Original Mandate 118,000 100% -----
Jordan 91,000 77% Jordan
Negev Desert 11,750 9.9% Israel
Israel (inhabited) 8,000 6.7% Israel
West Bank 5,700 4.8% Jordan
Golan Heights 1,176 0.99% Syria
Gaza Strip 360 0.3% Egypt

Timeline of Key Events During the British Mandate
1920 British Mandate for Palestine established by League of Nations over areas on both sides of the Jordan River
1920-21 Arab riots of 1920-1921
1922 With first White Paper, Britain arbitrarily separates area east of Jordan River from the Palestine Mandate; Jewish settlement prohibited in almost 80% of the Mandate.
1929 Arab riots; 67 Jews massacred in Hebron
1930-31 A series of British commissions and reports fail to improve relations between Jews, Arabs and the Mandate government; restrictions on Jewish immigration and settlement gradually increased
1936-39 Arab Revolt
1936-39 A series of British commissions results in the 1939 White Paper that imposes severe restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine
1939-45 Desperate situation develops for Jews in Europe swept up by Nazi extermination plan; Britain insists on immigration limits; Jewish leadership gives up on Britain and turns to illegal immigration and violent resistance
1945-46 Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry investigates plight of Jews in Displaced Persons camps in Europe while Britain still refuses to allow immigration to Palestine
1946 British Headquarters in Jerusalem's King David Hotel bombed by the Irgun
Spring 1947 Britain transfers Palestine issue to the United Nations
Nov 29, 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (Partition Plan) adopted; Arab irregular forces launch terror campaign against Jewish settlements
May 14, 1948 British Mandate ends; State of Israel proclaimed; armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria invade the following day

Sources and additional reading on this topic:
•A.J. Balfour Defense of the Palestine Mandate, 1922
•Eyeless in Zion
•Don't Confuse Me with the Facts
•Palestine, 1897-1948
•Chutzpah...Arab Style
•Foundations of the State of Israel
•A Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine 1895-1947
•A History of the Land of Israel
•Who Were the 1948 Refugees?
•Arafat's Bag of Tricks''

[Canticle]

Why Twyla?

Because we are human and humans like to discuss, argue, catch one another out, support, tear their hair out at another's viewpoint, talk, write etc etc etc......on and on it goes....and long may it do so.

[TwylaTwobits]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

[Canticle]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

It is human nature...unfortunately. Anyone can counter any argument, which they don't condone, with the words ''you're wrong,'' but to leave the argument...or discussion, at that point, would be foolish. ''you're wrong''....or ''I think you're wrong,'' followed by a ''but'' and respecting the other point of view, whilst putting over one's own is the way it should be handled.

Even when people are dying, there is always room for debate. There has to be, otherwise things never change.....for the better. There has to be discussion...there has to be talking to the other side.

The Middle East has always been a hotspot. The Romans conquered the lands in the area, but had to fight, what they called terrorism and the area where the biggest hotheads and rebellious types were found, was in Galilee. I've never believed in a gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I've always seen him as a political radical as well as a religious one.

It's been called the Holy Land.....yes...and how wrong that term is......or so I believe. The Crusades were just another bloodbath of battles to gain land in the name of the Pope, not considering the people who already lived in those lands, or those who ruled them. How many people must have been unnecessarily and cruelly slaughtered, in the name of a God and how many people must have been dispossessed.

Times may change...people don't.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.

And whether Israel should have been given their nation or not isn't an issue either. They have a nation. They have borders. And they have expanded those borders because other people decided to make war upon them, and they happened to be better at it than they were. And that was nearly 50 years ago.

And even still, they've offered to give it back. And they were spit on. They offered to build. And their schools were bombed. The Palestinians could have had peace if they wanted it. They rejected it, and now cry foul.

Want to really find who is to blame? Look to Iran, Syria and Jordan. Of all scenarios possible, there is only one that they do not win. And that is if peace breaks out.

Pasa

[Canticle]

Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.

And whether Israel should have been given their nation or not isn't an issue either. They have a nation. They have borders. And they have expanded those borders because other people decided to make war upon them, and they happened to be better at it than they were. And that was nearly 50 years ago.

And even still, they've offered to give it back. And they were spit on. They offered to build. And their schools were bombed. The Palestinians could have had peace if they wanted it. They rejected it, and now cry foul.

Want to really find who is to blame? Look to Iran, Syria and Jordan. Of all scenarios possible, there is only one that they do not win. And that is if peace breaks out.

Pasa

Sighs.....repetition....repetition.....repetition. ........very much like the on going hostilities in the Middle East.

Israel is not a peace making country. They always want it their way.

Whether the State of Israel should or should not exist, may not seem important to you, but it's been important to the dispossessed Palestinians, for over 60 years and it always will be........until they are treated as equals to the Israelis. After all, Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples. One no better than the other.

''Really doesn't matter what the facts are in the case of the term Holy Land. Only matters what those people who are involved think. Expecting them to be accurate about it really doesn't matter much. And really, not my place to tell them that some rock in the desert isn't holy. Nor yours.''

Last temple of the soul, is the human body. Land is just that.....land.

[coyotedude]

One of the things that strikes me about this incident is that the Israeli government once again is its own worst enemy. Whether or not you are a fan of Israel, the fact is that the botched takeover of the convoy has strengthened Israel's enemies, weakened its few remaining alliances, and squandered any possibility of goodwill among the international community.

The Israeli government could have made different choices. It should have recognized the sensitive political and diplomatic nuances involved in any takeover action and planned accordingly. Its military should have anticipated potential resistance aboard the ships and prepared a sound tactical plan.

Instead, Israel blundered into a hornet's nest that was largely avoidable. Whether through arrogance or incompetence, the Israeli government completely mishandled the situation.

As one who prays to see a just and lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians, I do not find any of this encouraging.

Peace

[chimpster]

What is there to say about it? the facts speak for themselves, Gaza is an appalling situation.

To begin with, the interception of the aid flotilla in international waters by armed men is technically (under maritime law) piracy. That the act was carried out by a sovereign state is wholly reprehensible and, in my opinion, indicative of the lack of respect that sovereign state has for the lives of people outside its sovereignty.

Gaza itself has become somewhat reminiscent in recent times of the Warsaw ghetto during the second world war. The irony of that should not be lost on the world when considering that Israel was created as a sovereign state to give the Jewish peoples a homeland following the atrocities perpetrated against them by nazi germany during the second world war, including appalling acts within the Warsaw ghetto itself.

To summarise, one can only hope that the average Israeli citizen is mindful of the past of his/her country and is as appalled as the rest of the world at this ongoing situation.

Having said all the above we must remember that this is a forum for bisexuality and bisexual issues, not a political forum, which is a more appropriate place for people to vent their ire on this matter.

[darkeyes]

Oh so you are saying it's human nature to counter any argument you don't condone with a "you're wrong" No thanks, there is no room for debate when people are dying, end of story. There will never be peace in the middle east and they have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what the fight was about. There is a Holy Land, Canticle. Remember the little thing called the Crusades?

..whether or not we call it the Holy Land, Land of Milk and Honey or anything else.. the Crusades are what got us into this mess in the first place...

..and to say there will never be peace in the Holy Land is simply not so and it saddens me that many think that way.. my country fought a war against our southern neighbour for over 300 years and intermittently for over 300 years before that and now not only are we friends we are partners in the same state. They know what the fighing is about ok Twyla.. just as we do. There will be peace some day but it requires the will and commitment of all parties and all peoples..

[JP1986UM]

It's been called the Holy Land.....yes...and how wrong that term is......or so I believe. The Crusades were just another bloodbath of battles to gain land in the name of the Pope, not considering the people who already lived in those lands, or those who ruled them. How many people must have been unnecessarily and cruelly slaughtered, in the name of a God and how many people must have been dispossessed.

Times may change...people don't.

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

[darkeyes]

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

The middle part of this is a rather unpleasant.. no.. odious, macho and arrogant statement to make Pasa. It is almost as if you wish it to be. It certainly displays a belief in American superiority which is almost wide eyed and maniacal.. and, without recourse to nuclear weapons would only suck your country into another long drawn out guerilla war in Mexico which would cost hundreds of thousands of lives... luckily for America and the world you don't run the USA. Yes, Israel certainly could clear the Gaza strip.. that it doesnt do so is more to do with realism and world opinion than choice.. then the comparsion to the Warsaw ghetto becomes even more glaringly apparent.

..finally to say all it needs is for Palestinians leaders to say they want peace and recognise Israel so it will be is just not so... it takes two to tango.. you simply are never prepared to even consider you may have it wrong and that there is fault on both sides.. and there is much fault on both sides.. you close your eyes to the fact that Israel has proven itself a bully and will shoot, and kill whomsoever it pleases, wherever it pleases, use any weapon and any tactic to get its own way. It is a mess and mess which your country can do much to help sort out.. that it chooses not to in its position as Israel's financier and weapon supplier is a condemnation of it. All countries have a responsibilty to sort this out..the UN set up Israel as a salve for its conscience in 1948. It exists and must be allowed to continue to exist.. but it has to be reigned in from this insane bully boy policy which is a bar to peace every bit as much as any intransigence from Palestinian Authorities or even terrorists. More so.. Israel has the power... and it shows no magnanimity or compassion..

[darkeyes]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

Noow here is a tolerant and compassionate if somehwat man. If we have the right to wipe Islam of the face of the earth.. then does not Islam have the right to defend itself or to try and do the same to Christianity and western culture?

Read about the crusades darling.. I think you will find that they were about far more odious and selfish things than the defence of Europe and its culture...

[darkeyes]

And there was I thinking that it was only the bad countries that rewrote history to suit.

.

Indeed heph..and it can be argued were it not for Britain surviving.. then the eastern USA would be flying the swastika and the western USA the flag of the rising sun.. but of course thats just silly isn't it? And not pertinent..

[Canticle]

What is there to say about it? the facts speak for themselves, Gaza is an appalling situation.

To begin with, the interception of the aid flotilla in international waters by armed men is technically (under maritime law) piracy. That the act was carried out by a sovereign state is wholly reprehensible and, in my opinion, indicative of the lack of respect that sovereign state has for the lives of people outside its sovereignty.

Gaza itself has become somewhat reminiscent in recent times of the Warsaw ghetto during the second world war. The irony of that should not be lost on the world when considering that Israel was created as a sovereign state to give the Jewish peoples a homeland following the atrocities perpetrated against them by nazi germany during the second world war, including appalling acts within the Warsaw ghetto itself.

To summarise, one can only hope that the average Israeli citizen is mindful of the past of his/her country and is as appalled as the rest of the world at this ongoing situation.

Having said all the above we must remember that this is a forum for bisexuality and bisexual issues, not a political forum, which is a more appropriate place for people to vent their ire on this matter.

I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

[TwylaTwobits]

Granted it's done by an Israeli person but still pretty informative.

http://www.levitt.com/misc/israel_history.html

[Canticle]

..whether or not we call it the Holy Land, Land of Milk and Honey or anything else.. the Crusades are what got us into this mess in the first place...

..and to say there will never be peace in the Holy Land is simply not so and it saddens me that many think that way.. my country fought a war against our southern neighbour for over 300 years and intermittently for over 300 years before that and now not only are we friends we are partners in the same state. They know what the fighing is about ok Twyla.. just as we do. There will be peace some day but it requires the will and commitment of all parties and all peoples..

You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

[darkeyes]

You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

[TwylaTwobits]

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

[TwylaTwobits]

I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

[Canticle]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

The colonisation of Canada (and other places), because humans explored the world and found new lands to sail to and settle, cannot be compared with the artificial creation of the State of Israel.

We all know why this creation of the state, took place, but in this creation, the people who caused it to happen, made a very big mistake. The settlement of immigrant Jews, from many parts of the world, to this tiny state has been a very calculated one.

Other than slaves and people being sent to penal colonies, the colonisation of places such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Americas, took place over more than 60 years. A very different scenario.

And why should the Islamic forces not have moved westward and conquered land, in the same way that Christian (Western), Roman, Greek, Egyptian civilisations, conquered Europe, parts of Africa etc, etc. It is, unfortunately, what humans do.

Islam also brought great culture and learning with it, great architecture. Yes, they were pushed back and out of most of Europe, but we still have European Muslims in Turkey and eastern European countries. If you will remember, some of these European Muslims, suffered very recently, at the hands of Christians and Europe once again saw genocide happening.

''until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.''

This is an odious thing to say. I'm not sure if it smacks of religious intolerance, racism, or both. You wipe a religion, and/or it's followers from the face of the earth and that obliteration has a name. One that leaves a dark and acrid taste in the mouth, when said.

''In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.''

Israel does not own the high seas. Her secret service organisation, Mossad has been active iin too many places over the years. Israel thinks it has a God given right to do what it likes. It does not.

[Canticle]

The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

Oh, I have no argument with you here, Fran. Indeed, England was at war with herself many times before the Wars of the Roses and the Royalist/Parliament civil war. That is why medieval history is so fascinating.

[Canticle]

And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

[Canticle]

By the way, the sexual orientation of people is very important and becomes both a political and humanitarian issue, when, in some countries gay and bi people are persecuted and may even be killed. People who have done no wrong. People who just vanish from the face of the earth. It's all political. All humanirarian.

[Hephaestion]

Put a dog into a corner, deny it life's essentials and then whip it. 10 to 1 it will bite as a last resort. QED dogs bite and so are a problem to be dealt with harshly.

Territory is not the only feature in the area. It is the treatment of the peoples. On one side the technologically progressed Israelis who can hit with impunity, starve others, lower the water table, and take land by stealth, shoot people on TV (the sight of a man unsuccessfully trying to protect himself and his son is as good as the skinless Vitnamese girl after a napalm attack) . On the other side is the aimless retribution meted out by the desparate arabs.

An interesting parallel looms into view.

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.

Incidentally the USA is busy undermining itself with indiscriminate drone attacks.

There can be no escape from the reality - what the Iraelis did was idiotic and dangerous. The Turks are now labelling the boarding as equivalent to piracy.

.

[darkeyes]

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

[TwylaTwobits]

..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

[TwylaTwobits]

Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

I know he said it wasn't the place for a political discussion, you misunderstand my comment. It was to you regarding If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one

If the sexual orientation of a person has no bearing on opinions why even bring it up?

[darkeyes]

Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

Yes they do die every single day, Twyla.. but I only wish it was as simple as letting a political prisoner go... and Israel has its fair share of those.. including I understand, several Israeli's who were with the convoy.. whenever one side or other gets its way somehow another hoop to jump through miraculously appears...

[darkeyes]

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.

Was it Yamamoto who said after the Pearl harbour attack that he feared they have awakened a sleeping tiger? I fear in many ways you are right in this Heph, for is it not also said that a tiger is most dangerous when wounded and cornered?

.. and just what is Obama going to do if the Israeli's attack and sink a Turkish warship and maybe their merchantmen in another attempt to break the blockade? He called on NATO support for the war in Afghanistan under the attack on one is an attack on all principle. Nato responded and supported and still supports the US in that war.. can Obama now turn round and say no when Israel attacks Turkey in international waters and Turkey calls for the same support? Turkey has hitherto been Israel's friend.. burning bridges is the least of Israel's worries...