Courted by a Shadow Lover

[tenni]

It seems to me that the OP has been offended when challenged about making statements about communicating with the dead. I'm not sure that she should not have expected to be challenged as such beliefs are out of the norm of mainstream thinking. That is not to write that such beliefs are wrong. I think that many people who have had people close to them die may support her but it has not been empirically proven and Adam is correct to make such statements. Clearly such Goddess/speaking to the dead chatter has offended him.

This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality.

[Long Duck Dong]

It seems to me that the OP has been offended when challenged about making statements about communicating with the dead. I'm not sure that she should not have expected to be challenged as such beliefs are out of the norm of mainstream thinking. That is not to write that such beliefs are wrong. I think that many people who have had people close to them die may support her but it has not been empirically proven and Adam is correct to make such statements. Clearly such Goddess/speaking to the dead chatter has offended him.

This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality.

care to tell drew not to post articles from famous bisexual writers talking about it and the number of bisexuals that are part of the wiccan / pagan and spiritual communities ???

and if it offended adam, he didn't have to reread the thread a few times and post in it...... freedom of choice......

[rissababynta]

Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous

[TwylaTwobits]

Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous

Yeah, Rissa, I think next time I'll just mail Cat and a few others that share my sense of humor and understand the workings of an overactive mind. :p


Seriously this thread was sparked by something that was going around in my head at the time. There are always threads about sex and well let's say it, fucking, or cheating. Not a lot of threads about death, life or taxes... 3 things we can't escape in this world regardless of sexuality, gender or religious preferences. Doesn't change the fact that I have Adam on ignore. I have more class though than to bash a person while they are on ignore and can't respond.

[tenni]

Rissa
Our views differ. Religion and spiritual beliefs are sparky, subjective and debatable. Any comment on such topics may be very frequently controversial. The OP is now aware that her view about speaking to the dead is controversial for some.

Writing about a religious belief that discriminates against GLBT people is quite different than what was posted by the OP.

The OP went beyond the song with her thoughts and even within the song, there were aspects that all may not agree with about death and after death.

Adam went too far with his words but so was the OP's reaction over the top...with "burn bibles".

Ummm, the last time I checked, unless someone is beginning a thread to spark up a debate, one should not be expected to expect being challenged. It is not as if Twyla started this thread for such a reason, she was simply sharing some thoughts and feelings that she has found in a song.

Serves you right for thinking of sharing nice things with us Twyla, maybe you'll think twice next time before you do something so ridiculous

[TwylaTwobits]

There is an option to read posts, Tenni. If you don't agree with the subject matter then you are free to not read.

[tenni]

That is quite true. It is everyone's right to decide what they will read or respond to. If I don't agree and identify with some aspect, I respond.

What's your point?

There is an option to read posts, Tenni. If you don't agree with the subject matter then you are free to not read.

[rissababynta]

Well, I for one am tired of the breath of fresh air in the form of innocent and nice threads being hijacked repeatedly, so I refuse to play into this game anymore.

Twyla, next time you want to share something, and you wish to do it privately, by all means email me. You know I will appreciate it.

[TwylaTwobits]

Hugs Rissa, I know how ya feel hon. Seems it wouldn't matter if someone posted the sky was blue someone on this site would argue about the color and if it was actually blue or our interpretation of blue and whether or not color actually exists.


To Tenni, you seem to take an issue with things and choose to create problems where there are none. Keep it up and you will soon be known to be like Adam and then your responses won't be seen by the majority of this site. Which is a shame because at times you do have valid points.

[tenni]

My first post to this thread was dealing with the topic of death and I posted beyond the topic because I thought that Adam was being mistreated. I saw a problem and yes I saw an issue that you obviously did not see.

Adam did present his thoughts crudely and you reacted very well until your last sentence. Then your true anger showed. I do not know the history of Adam with some of you but from reading this thread, I saw that he was being degraded in my opinion. I do not stand quietly by if I see bullying. Maybe, I am wrong but that is what I saw.

To Tenni, you seem to take an issue with things and choose to create problems where there are none. Keep it up and you will soon be known to be like Adam and then your responses won't be seen by the majority of this site. Which is a shame because at times you do have valid points.

[TwylaTwobits]

Back on topic.

A beautiful love poem that knows death isn't the end.

Annabel Lee by Edgar Allen Poe

It was many and many a year ago,
In a kingdom by the sea,
That a maiden there lived whom you may know
By the name of Annabel Lee;
And this maiden she lived with no other thought
Than to love and be loved by me.

I was a child and she was a child,
In this kingdom by the sea;
But we loved with a love that was more than love -
I and my Annabel Lee;
With a love that the winged seraphs of heaven
Coveted her and me.
And this was the reason that, long ago,
In this kingdom by the sea,
A wind blew out of a cloud, chilling
My beautiful Annabel Lee;
So that her highborn kinsman came
And bore her away from me,
To shut her up in a sepulcher
In this kingdom by the sea.
The angels, not half so happy in heaven,
Went envying her and me
Yes! that was the reason
(as all men know, In this kingdom by the sea)
That the wind came out of the cloud by night,
Chilling and killing my Annabel Lee.

But our love was stronger by far than the love
Of those who were older than we
Of many far wiser than we
And neither the angels in heaven above,
Nor the demons down under the sea,
Can ever dissever my soul from the soul
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee.
For the moon never beams without bringing me dreams
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And the stars never rise but I feel the bright eyes
Of the beautiful Annabel Lee;
And so, all the night-tide, I lie down by the side
Of my darling, my darling, my life and my bride,
In the sepulcher there by the sea,
In her tomb by the sounding sea.

[Long Duck Dong]

death is merely the end of a life long struggle to gain everything we can not take with us when we are gone, such as wisdom, knowledge, love, passion.....

yet from the moment we are born, death is our friend, our mentor, our teacher, and not something to fear as the end of a life, but a constant reminder that nothing is immortal....

we eat the flesh of things that are dead, plants and animals, we deal with the death of our appliances, our tvs, our gardens, and yet they do not cause us the fear of our own lives, our own mortality.....

so why do we fear a natural part of our lives.... could it be the loss of control over issues and matters, the fear of not having the last word, the fear that others may speak untrue about us......

or could it be that we are so wrapped up in trying to live that we fear the one thing that can stop us doing that...... yet its the one thing that is naturally a part of our lives from the moment we are born....

and so comes the death of this thread... I mean the end of me writing it

[void()]

You'll be dead soon enough.... Don't rush it.

ROFLMAO!!!! & PMSL!!!!

Like I would notice a difference oh great sage. I live as though dead, so what is death?

The whole of it cultivates into being able to live because you set aside fear, hate, anger, any emotion really, and illusions about life. You live in a state some Hindu and Yoga gurus call Satori or Truth. It is not an easy path to follow, I do not always stay on the path. I doubt many can stay on it. There are a few to be sure, lest there be nothing to aspire to.

And yeah, living in Satori is being aware that all around is nothing but a void. "We make everything, use nothing." But I disagree with that Way as it reaches outward and says a divine being had a hand in it. Sorry, I just refuse to buy some being that knows all, is all, end all. If they existed then nothing else would by means of reductionist logic and analogy.

'Course analogy can destroy it all. Look at Hiroshima, no? Anola Gay was the plane's designation that flew in the bombs. It is an anagram, obviously. Folks in the know and with the power, made that so. Doubt they missed seeing the irony or satire in it. But we're surrounded by a world full of apathy. Sure there's a divine being. They call it stupidity.

Maybe I fit there in the being's arms, too. Maybe I don't. I don't know, nor care to know. It would probably be the worst terror for anyone for me to know. So, I just keep on keeping on. I don't rush, I don't let moss grow.

[AdamKadmon43]

death is merely the end of a life long struggle to gain everything we can not take with us when we are gone, such as wisdom, knowledge, love, passion.....

yet from the moment we are born, death is our friend, our mentor, our teacher, and not something to fear as the end of a life, but a constant reminder that nothing is immortal....

we eat the flesh of things that are dead, plants and animals, we deal with the death of our appliances, our tvs, our gardens, and yet they do not cause us the fear of our own lives, our own mortality.....

so why do we fear a natural part of our lives.... could it be the loss of control over issues and matters, the fear of not having the last word, the fear that others may speak untrue about us......

or could it be that we are so wrapped up in trying to live that we fear the one thing that can stop us doing that...... yet its the one thing that is naturally a part of our lives from the moment we are born....

Very nicely put LDD... Thank you.

[void()]

Pepper - Butthole Surfers

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Cherese
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

(In Reverse:
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes)

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Pauly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Fucking A Yeah! Now I'll have that plastered into my psyche for six weeks. Love hearing that guy ... "They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain"

Such a great mantra, along with another I appreciate. "I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?"

Never realized that such a philosophy/way of life/belief/product of mass hysteria crossed so many lines. Feels good knowing other twisted assholes like me exist.

"Sometimes those who profess to have no belief, actually have more than they would like to admit.....a kind of rebellion."

Honey, I need to borrow the poor country boy a moment and say, "duh."

I have no belief. But I do have faith in Hope. Does that get everybody all randy like? I hope so, damn tired of multiple orgasms not working. Whew, exhausted isn't the word. Glad we decided to have the orgy in New Mexico, again. I can always find New Mexico after eating those buttons. You know, Peyote buttons remind me of nip buttons.

Oh right, curb it. Yes we do rebel because not to means slavery. Would rather die on my feet an untamed dog than to bow and be castrated by some other fucker's sick ideas of utopia. Seems I recall a few wars fought with such a similar cause in the crux. Remember, _The day the world turned upside down_? A mate over yer end o' de pond says that was wot your jolly marines played as they retreated from America.

Dunay if ye know a McLaughin clan or nay. He offered me a shepherd's lot once. I never did arse meself to bide it. Was too young and stupid to realize him saying, "got two boys waiting at the airport for ye" meant a life of being free. His flock spans the globe, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, America, Prussia. Still kicking meself for being yon brave little soldier.

Damn it, cunning Geordie that. I be running off now. You done see too much in these eyes.

[AdamKadmon43]

ROFLMAO!!!! & PMSL!!!!

Like I would notice a difference oh great sage. I live as though dead, so what is death?

The whole of it cultivates into being able to live because you set aside fear, hate, anger, any emotion really, and illusions about life. You live in a state some Hindu and Yoga gurus call Satori or Truth. It is not an easy path to follow, I do not also stay on the path. I doubt many can stay on it. There are a few to be sure, lest there be nothing to aspire to.

And yeah, living in Satori is being aware that all around is nothing but a void. "We make everything, use nothing." But I disagree with that Way as it reaches outward and says a divine being had a hand in it. Sorry, I just refuse to buy some being that knows all, is all, end all. If they existed then nothing else would by means of reductionist logic and analogy.

'Course analogy can destroy it all. Look at Hiroshima, no? Anola Gay was the plane's designation that flew in the bombs. It is an anagram, obviously. Folks in the know and with the power, made that so. Doubt they missed seeing the irony or satire in it. But we're surrounded by a world full of apathy. Sure there's a divine being. They call it stupidity.

Maybe I fit there in the being's arms, too. Maybe I don't. I don't know, nor care to know. It would probably be the worst terror for anyone for me to know. So, I just keep on keeping on. I don't rush, I don't let moss grow.

I live as though life is all there is.

Depending upon how you choose to view it... I am either fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to assume that the "here" and the "now" is the sum totality of our existence.

I take great joy and delight in the magnificient and beautiful world that I seem to exist in. I am constantly amazed by it's complexity and diversity. And I experience tremendous amounts of joy in realizing how much we have come to understand the workings of it. The sub-atomic structure of our physical world is simply astounding. I don't know how many ordinary people have ever investigated those sorts of things, but I really wish that more of them would. Be advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.

I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe. We really are indeed the product of star dust in the greater sense, and I do not understand why we can not be content with such knowledge.

But perhaps I do not deal with all that very well either.... If I did, then maybe I would not be so guilty of lubricating my spiritual well-being with an occasional bit of substance abuse.

[void()]

"This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such religious/spiritual chatter as the frequency of such posts begins to look like evangelical if not cult like chatter that has nothing to do with bisexuality."


If I had nickle ...

This is a thread about life and thoughts of life. Death is a natural extension of life. Last I checked bisexual folks did live. So, discussing life is disrespectful?

Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to read the thread. No one forced replies.

And so you understand, I'll repeat something again.

Wicca means knowledge and wisdom. It is the sort folks gather from living. Let me give you a quick example here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitalis

It is a drug used to help heart conditions. For thousands if not a few million years, wiccans prescribed a tea made from foxglove for heart ailments. Modern medicine comes along and recycles their wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt%27s_foot

Colt's Foot is another old home remedy. It contains Tussin, which you now find in cough medicines like Robotussin, Vicks and so on.

The wiccans gained this knowledge from living, from sharing, caring. "Hey, last week Joe Blow over here had a cough. He ate some of this weed that has yellow flowers and purple viens. His cough went away."

The same principle/s apply here as well. We're all one class of folks. We're sharing tales about life and living. Death is part of that. If it offends other folks then they don't need to read it. It is still within keeping of the guidelines.

Shoot, a Christian, Islamic poster could write up a thread the same as folks here did. Would you say that was offensive, too?

Bah, mail the nickles to the Hati thing.

[void()]

"advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.

I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe."

Sanity forfeit? Pffft. They can not keep me in Western State. I keep escaping and my day pass cards are full up.

To over simplify I think would be to take it all back to water. Water came to the earth from space, it carried those immortal particles you mention. I'm not the only fool believing such, check out Dr. Emoto, who does stuff with water crystals.

That would be really simple too. "We're all aliens, dust from the stars."

Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.

[AdamKadmon43]

"
Sanity forfeit? Pffft. They can not keep me in Western State. I keep escaping and my day pass cards are full up.

To over simplify I think would be to take it all back to water. Water came to the earth from space, it carried those immortal particles you mention. I'm not the only fool believing such, check out Dr. Emoto, who does stuff with water crystals.

That would be really simple too. "We're all aliens, dust from the stars."

Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.

Thanks Void... I have a great deal of respect for you.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Lord, I missed something somewhere. I missed the part about someone communicating with the dead....
Confused Cat.
PS Twy, you can send me anything you Like, Girlfriend. At least Rissa and I can make light of this and you'd understand. :}

[TwylaTwobits]

LOL Cat, apparently someone took me saying a whisper in the wind as being a deep down conversation with someone on the other side. I'm not denying there are people in this world who can actually pick somethig up, but I'm not one of them. I know my sister hangs around cause she actually flips the back of my hair, something she did when she was alive that drove me nuts.

But all in all the point of this thread was about how we let death court us everyday, always whispering seductively to us about how easy it would be to just let it all go. That's what happens when you are just tired of thinking about certain things that have no answer and never will be answered in this lifetime.

That song just touched me as I read it, in part because of how it was used in the book, very well done by the author of the grieving partner of a lifebond left behind to fulfill the duty he had to his kingdom.

If people want to make too much of it, let em.

[AdamKadmon43]

I know my sister hangs around cause she actually flips the back of my hair, something she did when she was alive that drove me nuts.

This is not an attempt to attack anyone's beliefs, or to continue keeping alive a thread that has gone on far longer than it should have..... So, I hope they don't start in on me again.

But a statement like that indicates to me that you may very well be in serious need of some psychological counceling... Please try to seek some help.

If I were just callous and un-caring I would simply ignore it and forget about it, but I actually do care about people, believe it or not.

[coyotedude]

True confessions: I am a Valdemar series fan. I wouldn't call it high literature, per se, but I find it entertaining nonetheless...

[void()]

Thanks Void... I have a great deal of respect for you.

And I you, Adam. But I also have respect for many here. Shoot, I manage to respect myself at times.

I appreciate your view of living in the here and now. My own view gets me to roughly the same point, albeit in a round about way.

[Long Duck Dong]

I remember when I went under a psych test in the army, and that was ordering for all of us after a exercise went wrong....

I was talking to the psych, and I said to them * am I wrong to think about death as my friend and a daily part of my life * ?

the psych gave me the following answer * there are people in this world that will lay on their backs and look up at the sky and try to touch the clouds and get told to stop being a idiot, you can not touch the clouds, and then there are the people that will climb a mountain and touch the clouds, and people will call them idiots for having a open mind on ways to touch the clouds......

the thing is the name callers are often the same people, and they are the ones that have their heads in the sand and never see the clouds at all

you are a mountain climber, you will take the risks to touch the clouds, you know every step could be your last..... but you will touch the clouds

the people that think you are misguided for doing so, are the people that lay on their backs and stare at the clouds....

and the ones that will call you mentally unstable and mentally ill, are the ones with their heads in the sand, and they are the ones who judge you based on something they will never know anything about.....


so i said to the psych..... * and if I talk to spirits ? *

they replied, * you are as sane as most of the human race, the only difference, you listen, thats why you can talk to them *.....

[coyotedude]

LDD - very well said!

Peace

[Canticle]

I am about to post something, which I have had a great deal of trouble with the decision to post, or not. I have finally decided that I must, because I am a spiritual person and it does not sit well with me, that I ignore something, which somes from deep inside and asks to be written.

So I would ask that those in charge of the site realise this and do not punish me for feeling the need to express how I feel, about what has been said about spiritual matters. My beliefs are very important to me and if I did not post this very long post, I would be dishonouring myself.

Please understand that Drew. It is a matter of faith and belief. After this post, I will make no further contribution to the thread.

[IanBorthwick]

And as for you.... I shall just simply ignore you.

Best news I have heard all week, as your statements thus far you set yourself up then knock yourself down.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Hey Twy? The best advice I can give ya girlfriend is this....Click. Lol
Cat-Biting Tongue.

[Canticle]

I began a reply to post 155228 and then decided that this was not a good idea, afeared that this is what someone expected me to do. I like to think that I have made a contribution to a thread, because of the subject matter and not because of whom may have posted. However, many posts on, I have now decided that I need to make that reply and also refer to other posts. This will be a ‘quiet’ post. I spend a lot of my time thinking about spirituality and my own spiritual growth has leapt forward, in leaps and bounds over the last four years, with the help of someone very dear to my heart. So I begin my address by replying to post 155228.

Adam, because you are so intelligent, it does amaze me, that you have such a narrow view about things which cannot be explained. Throwing long words into the fire, does not make the coals burn more brightly, nor does it make you right.....but neither does it make you wrong. However, you have a one track mind and there is no meeting people half way. You never do, when it comes to religion. Reading books makes no one an expert. Studying science...does not mean that one has, or knows all the answers.

I have discussed spirituality with you, many times and you have often agreed with me and I know that you are no atheist. What you call illogical...may one day be proved to be quite logical. What we take for granted as logic in the
21st century, was once considered incredibly illogical. It works both ways.

It is good to feel troubled, as this shows that we question. However, you shouldn’t let it frighten you that people have beliefs, in the 21st century, which you cannot explain and which they cannot prove.

What are primitive beliefs? From the very first intelligent thought, any human had, there have been those who have felt the energy of the Cosmos and you know exactly what I mean by this. It's the life force of the universe...that vital spark which joins one human to another. Humans to all flora and fauna upon the planet, to the planet itself and to the wider universe.

Humans have felt this energy from the very beginning. Animals sense it too, and far from being primitive, the people who studied the stars and venerated the earth...who felt that energy....were not at all stupid.

Empirical evidence means nothing in this area, for as far as I am aware, there is no scientific test which can prove or disprove the existence of the energy, of which I speak.. The only thing that the word ‘’empirical.’’ does, in this situation, is make the person using the word, feel somewhat superior. Well people who bandy about such words are not superior...in intellect...in any way.

Adam, you have read the Gospel of St Thomas, I know you have, as have I. You have understood from your reading, for you have told me this, that this dis-allowed, Gnostic Gospel, rejected at the Convention of Nicea, is actually quite an amazing work. For we have Jesus talking to his spiritual 'twin,' Thomas and he talks about the 'God within.' If there is a universal life force and it joins everything together...an energy.....could this not be described as the ''God within''....the ''people talking to God''......

I have tried...many times...to explain my spiritualist beliefs to you, without much success. You believe that we are born, we live, we die. Fine. Nothing wrong in that...all true. This does not mean that there is not a separation between the carnate and the incarnate.

I and many others, believe....think…..that this life force, which makes us all that we are, does not cease to exist, once the mortal shell dies. We think, believe that this energy moves on. I think you believe ...think, something similar. However, your thoughts, beliefs, take your energy....mortal remains...back to the Cosmos. People with a similar opinion to myself....believe in both endings.

Here, I must quote some of your text, ‘’but to claim that we can communicate with deceased mortals is quite simply too much for me to take seriously. It totally confounds me that otherwise sane, normal, educated people living in today's world choose to believe such things. I understand that some of it is driven by the fear of death and the unknown, but if a simple-minded idiot like me can manage to deal with all that without resorting to such strange notions, then anyone can.''

OK, you are unable to step away from your ‘’logical’’ thinking, to even try to conceive that others may be right. You require proof. I tell you now. You aint’ going to get, for the forseeable future, the kind of concrete, scientific proof, which you crave.

Spirituality does not work like that. It cannot be manufactured in a test tube. How do I know this? I know this because there are many fakes out there who will claim to have a ‘’gift,’’ or be able to ‘’give healing,’’ or do what you call ‘’communicating with dead mortals.’’ They get found out…..and usually by truly spiritual people, in very much the same way as people who lie, get found out. They eventually give themselves away.

People with spiritual beliefs will continue to be sane, normal, educated people and their belief will not be born out of the fear of dying or of the unknown. Quite the contrary. With most people, what ever their brlief pattern, it is not death, which they fear, but the process of dying.

I realise you will have an answer to this, as I have heard it, but to most people, life is sweet, sacred…..every minute to be savoured, enjoyed and not wasted by abusing this wonderful gift of life. Even if a person can only open their eyes, to see the sunshine, life is still sweet and the life of a great scientist, such as Stephen Hawking, is no more worthwhile than the life of an uneducated person, who may very well be, the most kind and loving human upon the planet.

You, Adam, are no ‘’simple-minded idiot,’’ so please do not try to portray yourself as such.

‘’Epistemologically speaking, philosophers have generally agreed that there are primarily three ways we can know things: empiricism, rationality and intuitive knowledge. And I do not discount the validity of any of the three. But when one of them flies completely in the face of the other two, it can be dangerous to what we generally agree to be sanity .... and quite often an impediment to human progress. I do not intend to belabor this point, but just for one example... look at the disastrous historical results of the belief in witches.’’

So philosophers have ‘’generally agreed,’’ have they? Where did these philosphers get all the knowledge from and who taught their teachers? It seems to me, that people with a mindset, such as yours, will always find excuses, reasons, valid arguments for arguing that something which you yourselves cannot prove, is therefore nonsense.

How so, have spiritual beliefs impeded human progress. Think long and hard here. I said ‘’spiritual,’’ not religious. The two are very different and your example of a belief in witches, is not a valid one. That has far more to do with hysteria whipped up by organised religion and has nothing to do with true faith…or spirituality.

‘’I think that people are entitled to such beliefs, and I would certainly never attempt to deprive them or deny them such beliefs. But I also think that I have the right to express my opinion about it. That being: it is a lot of ignorant, supersticious nonsense most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains and/or their desire to believe something despite all evidence to the contrary just because they want to believe it.’’

This paragraph is insulting, although I thank you for having the good grace to say that you would never attempt to deprive people of their beliefs. You are entitled to air your opinion about such matters, but when it comes to religion, faith, spirituality, your views are always clouded by your own experiences….much like the creationist, who damns anyone from another religion, to eternal hellfire.

The remark about ‘’ most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains,’’ was totally unnecessary and a very ignorant one. I have a chemical imbalance in my brain, hence the reason I have epilepsy, but that has nothing to do with the spiritual experiences I have witnessed and know to be very real and experienced by others…..others who have no chemical imbalance. Educated and uneducated people, alike.

I believe that you’re trashing of the reality of spiritual experiences is due to your life long search for such a spirituality. You say you have found this in Pantheism (I think not, but hope that you have), and yet the core beliefs of Pantheists….to me, do not appear dissimilar to many pagan beliefs. Perhaps your Pantheism , is a pagan belief for the new age!!

Cat, you did not hijack any thread, you contributed some wise words. Please continue to do so.

Twyla, I was as amazed as you when I read the next post from a certain person. I really cannot see why he mentioned bisexuality. You opened an interesting thread and the poems posted by you and others, had many moving words.

If someone is so anchored in their logic, that they cannot take a step outside of their own ideas….beliefs and understand that there are many things which cannot be explaned away by science, nor proved by those who have experienced different things, then that person is the one losing out.

We, with spiritual beliefs, thoughts, experiences, are automatically expected, to believe the logic….but the other parties can never take that time out of their logic.

‘’now I kindly request, that when you have obtained all knowledge and understanding in the universe and can prove or disprove every aspect of faith and belief, that you come back and you prove us all wrong.... until that point, all you are doing is arguing that we are all a pack of idiots but you can not disprove anything we believe, as you do not have the ability to disprove it.... and our opposing argument is belief and faith.... its that simple’’

LDD…I fully concur with all you have said in that post…a very good one.

‘’This topic is not about bisexuality but the constant chatter about wicca, spiritualism goddess etc. on this bisexual site may be out of place and disrepectful of other posters' philosophical positions. It might be best to tone down such’’

Tenni…are you really serious?? Why is the discussion of such things out of place on a bisexual site and disrespectful of other posters’ philosophical positions? Does that mean that only certain subjects should be discussed and only certain philosphical outlooks? Has it not occurred to you that the spiritual beliefs of wiccan and other pagan beliefs and the beliefs of Christian Spiritualists, such as myself, form the rock upon which we base our philosophy.

Indeed, in my church, on a Sunday, a visiting Medium, will give what we call, ‘’the philosophy,’’ not a sermon and it has a very definite spiritual feel. A personal view or account of some experience by the Medium, yet one all can relate to and not just spiritualists. I think you have got this one very wrong. LDD’s following post was spot on.

A great shame, Twyla, that Tenni seems to disapprove of people having certain thoughts and ideas and airing and sharing them and that Adam can only call people with spiritual belief fools or crazy….or whatever words he likes to correct me for, for not quoting him properly.

Tenni…religion and politics are part of our everyday life. If we canot discuss certain aspects of belief, of spirituality……or poltical persuasion….then what can we discuss. The world is not straight, gay or bi….it’s a melting pot…as it is with race, colour, creed, religion…..that is reality. Like LDD said…..no one has to read a particular post or thread.

‘’My first post to this thread was dealing with the topic of death and I posted beyond the topic because I thought that Adam was being mistreated. I saw a problem and yes I saw an issue that you obviously did not see.

Adam did present his thoughts crudely and you reacted very well until your last sentence. Then your true anger showed. I do not know the history of Adam with some of you but from reading this thread, I saw that he was being degraded in my opinion. I do not stand quietly by if I see bullying. Maybe, I am wrong but that is what I saw.’’

I think that you are mistaken? Where was Adam being bullied? Where was he being degraded? You are totally wrong…absolutely. I just do not see how anyone can have formed that opinion. None of what you mention exists on the thread…and Tenni, people are allowed to get angry.

Another moving poem Twyla and then more sensible and spiritual words from LDD. Thank you.

‘’I live as though life is all there is.’’

I apologise for disagreeing, Adam, but No, you do not.’’

‘’Depending upon how you choose to view it... I am either fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to assume that the "here" and the "now" is the sum totality of our existence.’’

I think you will find that most people, whatever their belief system, are of that thought process and contrary to what you believe, they do not dwell on the hereafter….if they believe in one. Most people have to lead sober lives, either going to school, work, looking after children and doing the mundane things like washing pots and pans, getting the laundry clean, buying provisons, dealing with medical problems etc etc. The real here and now…….reality in a real world.

‘’I take great joy and delight in the magnificient and beautiful world that I seem to exist in. I am constantly amazed by it's complexity and diversity. And I experience tremendous amounts of joy in realizing how much we have come to understand the workings of it. The sub-atomic structure of our physical world is simply astounding. I don't know how many ordinary people have ever investigated those sorts of things, but I really wish that more of them would. Be advised that you probably should not go plunging into particle physics and quantum mechanics unless you are really, really brave and willing to sacrifice your sanity.’’

A person with Downs Syndrome, can also take great joy and delight in the magnificent and beautiful world. They might not understand the complexities, or pull it apart and study the sub-atomic structure…..but they will enjoy the warmth of the sun and the cold of the rain, upon their face and bring to others, love and joy, not misery and pain.

‘’I suppose that is why I lose patience with people who persist in over-simplifying human existence. Why must they be so caught up in their own desire to be immortal? Why must they let their emotions over-rule their brains? Why can they not understand that they really are, indeed, immortal in that the atoms that make up the molecules of their physical bodies are eternally re-cycled back into the Universe. We really are indeed the product of star dust in the greater sense, and I do not understand why we can not be content with such knowledge.’’

You lose patience with those who will not agree with you. Spirituality does not mean over-simplifying human existence. It actually means quite the opposite and you know this very well. Until we die, pass over, take our transition, whatever one likes to call it, there is a real world to live in and experience.

There is a life to lead…and it should be lived…not a half life. You believe, that when it comes down to it, human existence it futile and pointless. Try telling that to the 6 or 7 billion people who live on the planet.

People who strive to lead good lives. People who are ill, dying, starving and yet they keep on…because they want to live. They don’t want to think of themslves as atoms and particles of stardust, whilst they are alive. They want to live. Really live……unlike some people.

‘’But perhaps I do not deal with all that very well either.... If I did, then maybe I would not be so guilty of lubricating my spiritual well-being with an occasional bit of substance abuse.’’

Glad you can admit it, though I hope that the substance abuse is not that which you once told me, you had given up, many years ago.

‘’Lubrication with self medication can be alright. Just try not to over do it. You'd be missed.
Besides I can think of better use for lubrication.’’‘’

Methinks what you may be referring to, doth not exist…except in someone’s fantasies....and if you take Adam's words about respecting you, then you are sorely mistaken.

It will not go unnoticed that a post was then made, which I felt insulted Twyla. However, I am sure that Twyla is a strong enough character, to rise above what was posted and anyway, she has a certain person on ignore.

That's it...no more from me. I thought hard and long, before posting this. In the end, my own spiritual feelings would not rest, until I had. I hope this will be understood.