Courted by a Shadow Lover

[TwylaTwobits]

Been thinking a lot about death lately for some reason, found this song that pretty much speaks of the way death courts us as a lover every day with promises of relief from depression and loneliness.


By Mercedes Lackey


Shadow-Lover, never seen by day,
Only deep in dreams do you appear
Wisdom tells me I should turn away,
Love of mist and shadows, all unclear-
Nothing can I hold of you but thought
Shadow-Lover mist and twilight wrought.

Shadow-Lover, comfort me in pain.
Love, although I never see you face,
All who'd have me fear you speak in vain-
Never would I shrink from your embrace
Shadow-Lover, gentle is your hand
Never could another understand.

Shadow-Lover, soothe me when I mourn
Mourn for all who left me here alone,
When my grief is too much to be borne,
When my burdens crushing-great have grown,
Shadow-Lover, I cannot forget-
Help me bear the burdens I have yet.

Shadow-Lover, you alone can know
How I long to reach a point of peace
How I fade with weariness and woe
How I long for you to bring release.
Shadow-Lover, court me in my dreams
Bring the peace that suffering redeems.

Shadow-Lover, from the Shadows made,
Lead me into Shadows once again.
Where you lead I cannot be afraid,
For with you I shall come home again-
In your arms I shall not fear the night.
Shadow-Lover, lead me into light.

[MarieDelta]

Sorry if you are struggling at the moment.

*hugs*

I know what that is like.

[TwylaTwobits]

thanks Marie, not really trouble per se, just thinking too much

[IanBorthwick]

Mercedes Lackey, The Shadow Lover from the Magic series about Vanyel Ashkevron. It's a pseudonym for Death being merciful and leading us back to lost ones in the afterlife, in no uncertain terms. Why in the world are you contemplating death?

[TwylaTwobits]

Because Ian, in thinking about life you have to think about death. I have an aunt who could go any day now, I have several people around me not to mention just reading the news that make me think of death and life and how fragile the line is between.

By the way.. Last Herald Mage was an awesome series and won Mercedes Lackey an award for the use of a male homosexual lead character.

[MarieDelta]

Here's another good song

"Man In The Long Black Coat" - Bob Dylan(performed by Joan Osborne)

Crickets are chirpin' the water is high
There's a soft cotton dress on the line hangin' dry
Window wide open African trees
Bent over backwards from a hurricane breeze
Not a word of goodbye not even a note
She gone with the man in the long black coat.

Somebody seen him hangin' around
As the old dance hall on the outskirts of town
He looked into her eyes when she stopped him to ask
If he wanted to dance he had a face like a mask
Somebody said from the bible he'd quote
There was dust on the man in the long black coat.

Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
It ain't easy to swallow it sticks in the throat
She gave her heart to the man in the long black coat.

There are no mistakes in life some people say
It is true sometimes you can see it that way
But people don't live or die people just float
She went with the man in the long black coat.

There's smoke on the water it's been there since June
Tree trunks unprooted beneath the high crescent moon
Feel the pulse and vibration and the rumbling force
Somebody is out there beating on a dead horse
She never said nothing there was nothing she wrote
She gone with the man in the long black coat.

[12voltman59]

I think it is only natural and not necessarily a bad thing to think about death---one fact of life----"no one gets out of here alive" as it has been said.

Since people are sharing song lyrics about songs relating to death---I share one I know--it is an "old timey" song that comes from the mountains of Appalachia--but its orgins are traced back to the highlands of Scotland with it going way back in time.

This song was featured in the movie and soundtrack of "O' Brother, Where Art Thou?"

It was called "Conversation with Death" in the old mountain music--but Ralph Stanley who has performed it for years--called it "O Death" and that is what they called it on the movie soundtrack.

It might be a bit morbid a song--but I love Dr. Stanely's acapella singing of this song, in his haunting, raspy singing style.

O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
Well what is this that I can't see
With ice cold hands takin' hold of me
Well I am death, none can excel
I'll open the door to heaven or hell
Whoa, death someone would pray
Could you wait to call me another day
The children prayed, the preacher preached
Time and mercy is out of your reach
I'll fix your feet til you cant walk
I'll lock your jaw til you cant talk
I'll close your eyes so you can't see
This very air, come and go with me
I'm death I come to take the soul
Leave the body and leave it cold
To draw up the flesh off of the frame
Dirt and worm both have a claim
O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
My mother came to my bed
Placed a cold towel upon my head
My head is warm my feet are cold
Death is a-movin upon my soul
Oh, death how you're treatin' me
You've close my eyes so I can't see
Well you're hurtin' my body
You make me cold
You run my life right outta my soul
Oh death please consider my age
Please don't take me at this stage
My wealth is all at your command
If you will move your icy hand
Oh the young, the rich or poor
Hunger like me you know
No wealth, no ruin, no silver no gold
Nothing satisfies me but your soul
O, death
O, death
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year

a good video of him singing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xmRWj7gJEU

[TwylaTwobits]

Another song....
Long Black Train as sung by Josh Turner

There's a long black train,
Comin' down the line,
Feedin' off the souls that are lost and cryin',
Rails of sin, only evil remains
Watch out brother for that Long Black Train

Look to the heavens
You can look to the skies
You can find redemption
Staring back into your eyes
There is protection and there's
Peace the same, burnin' your ticket for that
Long Black Train

'Cause there's vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And don't go ridin' on that Long Black Train

There's an engineer on that Long Black Train,
Makin' you wonder if the ride is worth the pain,
He's just a waiting on your heart to say
Let me ride on that Long Black Train,

But you know there's vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the Lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And dont go ridin' on that Long Black Train

Well, I can hear the whistle from a mile away,
It sounds so good
But I must stay away
That train is a beauty, makin' everybody stare
But its only destination is the middle of nowhere,

But you know theres vict'ry in the Lord I say,
Vict'ry in the Lord,
Cling to the Father and His holy name,
And don't go ridin' on that Long Black Train

I said cling to the Father and His holy name
And dont go ridin' on that long black train
Yeah, watch out brother for that long black train
The Devil's a drivin' that long black train.

[IanBorthwick]

Because Ian, in thinking about life you have to think about death. I have an aunt who could go any day now, I have several people around me not to mention just reading the news that make me think of death and life and how fragile the line is between.

By the way.. Last Herald Mage was an awesome series and won Mercedes Lackey an award for the use of a male homosexual lead character.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, I was just curious.

I have suffered from many deaths recently, many of them beloved pets. But, and I am grateful for this, they returned. One especially left me bereft, and his death still floors me with tears. Was forced to watch him die before my eyes...wasting away from the poisons in the pet food. It hurt more than I can stand to remember. He returned recently, now looking differently but acting the same.

Never a day goes by I do not thank whomever took him so silently that brought him cease of his slow pain, that he could come back and love me once more. It's hard to let go of the feeling of loss though he's before me. It so much, we were that close. He was there for me when I needed him, knew my moods and my emotions, cuddled me, licked me and made me smile with his antics. He loved my son, watched us as best his crossed eyes could, and I believe was a guardian of mine.

When family died, I was always numb to their death except for my grandfather who loved me ever so much. He came to me in a dream the night he died to tell me how much he loved me so I would know he was gone....my mother would not let me visit him. I wept forever it seemed. But as time went by all that was left was the glow in my heart that he had wanted to come and tell me how much he cared, no matter what.

My days are filled with the longing to be worthy of that kind of love, and the hope I'll see him again...perhaps I do, in the eyes of my little boy.

[TwylaTwobits]

No worries, you asked I answered and never felt you came across harsh. I tend to think about a lot of things that most people don't but then I have situations in my life that, thankfully, most don't.

And yes our loved ones do come back to visit us sometimes in the next generation and sometimes just as a whisper in your ear and a small touch on your cheek as they check to see if you are still okay.

[void()]

"By Mercedes Lackey"

Lost me after that. I really don't bother reading their work much now. My wife read one of her books and passed it on. We both found all sorts of plotting flaws, continuity errors and such. That aside, onward to your message.

Folks say I've always been morbidly in Death's grasp since youth on. At four years I decided on cremation for disposal of my remains. Don't want to return.

Also, a bit of nick name I have makes use of being dead. My view of it comes from _The Art of War_. It says, paraphrasing: "Only those warriors who fight as if already dead may become great as they know no fear." And being American you called a gajin in Japan. The rough literal translation of that word means dog. The Myan oddly enough also have a myth about a ghost dog. Then, you've got a really literal reference to a dead dog in Sherlock Holmes. I think it was Scarlet Letter, although haven't been reading my Doyle of late, may be in error.

It is pretty obvious to see a dead dog. At least that is what the Holmes story related. "Why yes, of course the dog is dead. It is staring you right in the face is it not?" And yes, at times I do state the obvious with profoundness.

Once as we returned home, I saw a cow out of a pasture. I chimed up. "Cow's out." The wife swore I said "Daisies are blooming." She had no idea but figured a "Oh that's nice dear" was a safe bet. It was, although she suggested I add more excitement to a cow being out next time. Well, I better go shovel snow.

[AdamKadmon43]

You'll be dead soon enough.... Don't rush it.

[AdamKadmon43]

And yes our loved ones do come back to visit us sometimes in the next generation and sometimes just as a whisper in your ear and a small touch on your cheek as they check to see if you are still okay.

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

[IanBorthwick]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Why is it most of what I see from him are attacks on others beliefs and impatience when he wants his own understood?

[TwylaTwobits]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Adam, you believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I know to be real to me and to my Goddess. Now have a good day of Bible Burning and whatever else you nonbelievers do.

[Canticle]

Twyla and Ian

Sometimes those who profess to have no belief, actually have more than they would like to admit.....a kind of rebellion. I'm a Christian Spiritualist, though more the spiritualist, than the Christian these days and have experienced, first hand, what I call proof of things beyond our total understanding.....and yet I do understand. Sometimes those who profess disbelief understand and know too.

I could write pages...but will not, for fear of another shooting me down. If either of you want to talk more, you can always private message me.

[Canticle]

Are these people for fucking real ???? And I thought that I was crazy ... Sheeeeesh

Yes, they are for real.....how about you??

[tenni]

Adam, you believe what you want to believe. I'll believe what I know to be real to me and to my Goddess. Now have a good day of Bible Burning and whatever else you nonbelievers do.

This statement would have been very classy if the last sentence was left off.

Adam is correct when he writes that there is no point rushing death as it will come. I wonder if our minds may turn to thoughts of death more in the winter than the summer? I suppose that if we are forced to think of death due to someone near us dying that we may question why. The poem speak of being taken to loved ones and that may be a thought to comfort us when we get close to death.

To doubt and be a skeptic about dead loved ones returning in some form of reincarnation or visits of their spirit seems acceptable to me. However, I just don't think that I personally would dismiss it too quickly.

Sometimes, we are forced to think of our mortality if something happens to us. I think that it makes us appreciate life more than death at least for the period when an illness brings death closer than at other times. Still, I've heard and seen people as they approach the end of their life. At one point, we must all accept the inevitable. Until that day, party hardy...lol Or at least appreciate that you breath without assistance, enjoy your meals and company of others.

[MarieDelta]

Pepper - Butthole Surfers

Marky got with Sharon
And Sharon got Cherese
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
Then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

(In Reverse:
I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes)

Another Mikey took a knife
While arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death
He caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever-present
Football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Pauly caught a bullet
But it only hit his leg
Well it should have been a better shot
And got him in the head
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain

I don't mind the sun sometimes
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and sugary
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Adam just because you are emotionally and spiritually constipated, it doesnt mean that the rest of us are.

Various cultures all over the world have their own personal beliefs, and the belief in God, Goddess, and the Spirits are held by many of us, and we do believe that the energies(Spirits) of those loved ones that have walked the Path Do come to us to give us a bit of reassurance, confidance, and guidance now and then. Just because you dont believe in something, dont knock another person's belief system whether it be religious or Spiritual.
Go on back under the rock, and have a cookie.
Cat

[Canticle]

This statement would have been very classy if the last sentence was left off.

Adam is correct when he writes that there is no point rushing death as it will come. I wonder if our minds may turn to thoughts of death more in the winter than the summer? I suppose that if we are forced to think of death due to someone near us dying that we may question why. The poem speak of being taken to loved ones and that may be a thought to comfort us when we get close to death.

To doubt and be a skeptic about dead loved ones returning in some form of reincarnation or visits of their spirit seems acceptable to me. However, I just don't think that I personally would dismiss it too quickly.

Sometimes, we are forced to think of our mortality if something happens to us. I think that it makes us appreciate life more than death at least for the period when an illness brings death closer than at other times. Still, I've heard and seen people as they approach the end of their life. At one point, we must all accept the inevitable. Until that day, party hardy...lol Or at least appreciate that you breath without assistance, enjoy your meals and company of others.

Sometimes, the combined workings of another creature's existence and what might be meant, can become a little tiresome for others....get under the skin. I think that the last sentence of Twyla's post expresses that as she, perhaps sees (and she may correct me, if I am wrong), as others will no doubt have done, the possible beginnings, of another excuse, for one person's loathing of religion, to be spewed forth.

I'm a Spiritualist and a very basic one, not into what outsiders might call...''mumbo jumbo''.... The people who are ''the church''...the congregation, are very normal people, from all walks of life, but with one core belief. I say core, because, as with any belief, people see things differently.

That core belief does unite us....but more than that...it is our respect for the personal belief, or disbelief, which other individuals may have, which allows people from other belief systems, to know, that whatever they arrive at our church 'as'...or 'with'....they will leave 'as' or 'with.'

No preaching, no trying to convert. If a visit to the church gives you a cup of tea and a biscuit, maybe some home made cake, a laugh, meeting some lovely people...and a going away from the building, with a smile upon the face.....then, those lovely people I know, have done some good.

It is perfectly possible to disagree with another person's belief or disbelief, without resorting to insults......something one sees all too often. One faction believes itself to be right, another group will shout them down and then all get called delusional by atheists.

I have said so many times, to an 'individual' and to others. ''Disagree, argue, but always respect the personal belief or disbelief, held sacred by others and if a belief system is downright evil, hopefully, all decent people will gather together to defend what is truly right...people of whatever religion or outlook.'' If there is an after-life...the atheist, when he/she gets there, will exclaim, ''Oh, shit,'' and if there is nothing, then believers will be one the wiser.

I think you mis-understood what a certain person was trying to say and do. Yes, quite true, death comes all too soon (too soon, it seems, for some). and we are all headed in the same direction.....but think on this. Party too hard...and one can bring about ones own misery and demise, before it should ever happen.

Cat's post is spot on. We all have guides and we all have our loved ones around us. Whether we choose to call what we feel spirit, energy, a life force....it doesn't matter.

What is right for an individual is important and as the heart of my Church once said (and this was a lady of 90, a ''retired'' Medium and the sweetest of old ladies), ...''Always be sceptical. never believe anything just because you are told, 'this is how it is'...always question''

Spiritualists believe that the most important thing is love. Love and the light...whatever ''the light,'' may be. That is why we always say ''Love and light,'' to people...instead of a goodbye...or maybe as a blessing. I so wish that all people had love and light in their hearts.

[AdamKadmon43]

Adam just because you are emotionally and spiritually constipated, it doesnt mean that the rest of us are.

Various cultures all over the world have their own personal beliefs, and the belief in God, Goddess, and the Spirits are held by many of us, and we do believe that the energies(Spirits) of those loved ones that have walked the Path Do come to us to give us a bit of reassurance, confidance, and guidance now and then. Just because you dont believe in something, dont knock another person's belief system whether it be religious or Spiritual.
Go on back under the rock, and have a cookie.
Cat

It is not my intend to insult or make fun of anyone's beliefs. And If I come across as doing so, then I sincerely apologize.

HOWEVER.....

It is extremely troublesome to me (if not down right frightening) that in these modern times, with the great store of knowledge of the world that humanity has accumulated, that so many of us still engage in such primitive beliefs..... Beliefs that have never had one single, concrete, demonstrable shred of empirical evidence to support them.

It is distrubing enough that so many us claim that we "talk to god", but to claim that we can communicate with deceased mortals is quite simply too much for me to take seriously. It totally confounds me that otherwise sane, normal, educated people living in today's world choose to believe such things. I understand that some of it is driven by the fear of death and the unknown, but if a simple-minded idiot like me can manage to deal with all that without resorting to such strange notions, then anyone can.

Epistemologically speaking, philosophers have generally agreed that there are primarily three ways we can know things: empiricism, rationality and intuitive knowledge. And I do not discount the validity of any of the three. But when one of them flies completely in the face of the other two, it can be dangerous to what we generally agree to be sanity .... and quite often an impediment to human progress. I do not intend to belabor this point, but just for one example... look at the disastrous historical results of the belief in witches.

I think that people are entitled to such beliefs, and I would certainly never attempt to deprive them or deny them such beliefs. But I also think that I have the right to express my opinion about it. That being: it is a lot of ignorant, supersticious nonsense most likely fueled by chemical imbalances in peoples brains and/or their desire to believe something despite all evidence to the contrary just because they want to believe it.

So, go crawl back under your rock of illogic, and have a talk with your dead ancestors.

[AdamKadmon43]

Why is it most of what I see from him are attacks on others beliefs and impatience when he wants his own understood?

And as for you.... I shall just simply ignore you.

[Canticle]

Cat.....don't ya just love it....he's agreeing with you....lol!!

[rissababynta]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

[Canticle]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

It was a very iteresting thread Rissa. Still is....but it's taken a right turn...or maybe left.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Sorry Twy, I didnt mean to hijack your post, Hon. Death and the possibility of it is a very serious thing, and all of us have pondered it a time or two in our lives, so I understand completely. When you've looked death in the eye and danced with him, you grow a respect for him/it.
So with that said..Let's Parrrttyyy!
Hugzz
Cat.

[AdamKadmon43]

*sings* Another thread bites the dust...another thread bites the dust...

You had a good thing going Twyla. Sorry that it has begun to turn into something that it was never meant to turn into.

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.

[TwylaTwobits]

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.

Okay Adam this might get me tarred and feathered. But this thread wasn't about bisexuality. News flash I'm straight. I'm staying straight. I've never had nor do I want to have a same sex experience. I am here because I am in love with a bisexual.

This thread was not about bisexuality, I can't make it any clearer than that. As I stated you believe what you want to believe, which is apparently nothing. I will believe as I know. Your empirical evidence means nothing to someone who has literally walked with her Goddess and recieved the guiding and the comfort she has needed in times of sorrow. You don't get to say that no one comes back, because by hell I DID. I died October 3, 2007 on the operating table, the medical records note I was gone for 2 minutes before they restarted my heart.

I have seen and experienced things that are as real to me as the computer chair you sit in while you try to prove you are better than anyone else.

So please go take your attitude elsewhere, welcome to ignore.

[Long Duck Dong]

Sorry rissa, but I rather vehemently disagree. I think that it was helpful for it to turn into something else.

It has been my personal experience in life that bisexuals are viewed as rather odd, strange, weird, confused individuals. Far more so than the way exclusive homosexuality is viewed. We need to show them that we are normal, average, ever-day peolple and and not a bunch of fruit loops. Let's face it..... communicating with dead people is not widely accepted as being normal in Western civilization.

I suspect the problem is that we tend to view this site as some sort of exclusive bisexual clubhouse where we can discuss our bisexuality and the things that we think about and that matter to us..... But it is not. It is an open forum that anyone can view. And some of their opinions about us are formed by what they find here. I have personally gotten a great deal of negative feedback about some of the forum topics in here. "You people all seem to be obscessed with sex, and weird stuff" comes to mind.

If you want to claim that you communicate with dead people, that is fine with me. But please just try to not associate with it bisexuality. We got enough problems.

People already think that we are crazy... and sometimes I suspect they might be right.

adam, the last I saw, this is a open forum for discussion.... not a obligation to only talk about things that suit some people....

now by talking about different ways of thinking and viewing things, we are showing that bisexuals are more than sex hungry cheaters....
but you seem to have a issue with the fact that people are talking about their views and viewpoints, and how they are wrong and portraying the bisexual community as fruit loops and space cadets...

fortunately, there are people in the world and a large majority of them that share the same intelligent and informed views as a lot of the bisexual com... its called a common ground....

now fortunately for you adam, there is also a group of people in the world that are faith and religion disputing people as well, and they can relate to the bisexuals that are faith and religion disputing bisexuals....

right, the interesting thing to notice is that you make the claim that this is a open forum, yet I fail to see you starting a thread for the nay sayers of faith and religion, merely jumping on a thread that is pro faith, and trying to derail it.... this is actually a common thing, as if you posted a nay sayers thread it would die out pretty fast.... and therefore you need to hi jack a pro faith thread in order to feel that your views have merit....

now I kindly request, that when you have obtained all knowledge and understanding in the universe and can prove or disprove every aspect of faith and belief, that you come back and you prove us all wrong.... until that point, all you are doing is arguing that we are all a pack of idiots but you can not disprove anything we believe, as you do not have the ability to disprove it.... and our opposing argument is belief and faith.... its that simple

now belief and faith is simply that we believe, is true, the same as you believe what you say to be true....but for us, the proof is in the way we live and lead our lives, your proof lays in studies and stats that do not have the ability to disprove or disprove what you claim to be correct...