Prop 8 and Churches

[TaylorMade]

At first I was bummed at the win of Prop 8--but if you look at the numbers--the measure only passed by a narrwo margin--taking the long view---the attitude regarding "gays" in at least the American society---has come a long way from where it was a half-century and even a quarter-century ago,

This is gonna be like the abolition of slavery movement--then later "Civil Rights"--you win a few battles----you lose a few---the trend is to go more progressive, open, accepting and inclusive.

It is progress that we now have two states that allow same-sex marriage---hopefully the right will prevail in Connecticut and Mass.

This is one of those things that is a few steps forward--a few steps back--but the march goes on and forward.

"The forces of darkness" as I like to think of those who oppose same-sex marriage--- are on the wrong side of history-----in another generation or so---"gays" will be fully intergrated into the whole of society--and one day---when a kid reads in a high school text book there was a time that gays could not marry--he or she will go "really--why not??--that is crazy----it is no BFD! They do it all the time now!!" Just like we don't think all that much anymore about interracial marriages. It is almost hard to believe they were illegal not all that long ago.

After these reactions, I'm not sure I'd want to call the opponents of same sex marriage the "forces of darkness".

This is nothing like the civil rights movement. . .I don't recall such blowback after defeats like this. . .and blacks had to climb up from a further depth than this. . .

Did you read any of the links I posted? Some of these people are calling black gays... THEIR OWN(!!!) the "N" word over this! I repeat, they are using the N word against THEIR OWN KIND!!!

That is a line that has been crossed with that act.

When you go from peaceful protest/pushing via the ballot box to threatening people based on their race and religon. . .you lose the right to moral indignation.

I am proud of the way others in other states have acted (shout out to Florida!). . .but this is what people will remember when they go to vote again.

Don't be suprised if this bites us in the ass.

*Taylor*

[boca.openminded]

Remember many years ago Fort Lauderdale, Florida used to be the hot spot of all the spring breakers? Ever wonder why it isn't any more?

The reason is because the Churches and their leaders of South Florida got together and closed those clubs. They made up stories that this would bring in violence, drugs, prostitution, etc....

I say this because the churches are doing the same thing to Prop 8 as they did to the Fort Lauderdale night life.

I do not know what the Churches have to do with Prop 8. What if you are not catholic or whatever religion is affiliated with these churches? I do not believe in religious groups projecting their beliefs onto others. I do not see other groups (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc...) doing this...

I think Evangelists are the most liars / twisted people out there. I remember what one said to the America public a few days after 9/11. I wont go into it but it was all bullshit and they only wanted the public to give them money.. They are on a power trip and what they are doing with Prop 8 is another one of their power trips.

It pisses me off....

[TaylorMade]

Remember many years ago Fort Lauderdale, Florida used to be the hot spot of all the spring breakers? Ever wonder why it isn't any more?

The reason is because the Churches and their leaders of South Florida got together and closed those clubs. They made up stories that this would bring in violence, drugs, prostitution, etc....

I say this because the churches are doing the same thing to Prop 8 as they did to the Fort Lauderdale night life.

I do not know what the Churches have to do with Prop 8. What if you are not catholic or whatever religion is affiliated with these churches? I do not believe in religious groups projecting their beliefs onto others. I do not see other groups (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc...) doing this...

I think Evangelists are the most liars / twisted people out there. I remember what one said to the America public a few days after 9/11. I wont go into it but it was all bullshit and they only wanted the public to give them money.. They are on a power trip and what they are doing with Prop 8 is another one of their power trips.

It pisses me off....

You don't know what the churches have to do with this , but you are ready to condemn them. How is that any different to what they do to us?

*Taylor*

[allbimyself]

After these reactions, I'm not sure I'd want to call the opponents of same sex marriage the "forces of darkness".

This is nothing like the civil rights movement. . .I don't recall such blowback after defeats like this. . .and blacks had to climb up from a further depth than this. . .

You weren't around then. Check your history.

Did you read any of the links I posted? Some of these people are calling black gays... THEIR OWN(!!!) the "N" word over this! I repeat, they are using the N word against THEIR OWN KIND!!!

That is a line that has been crossed with that act.

And no black person has ever used derogatory terms towards a non-hetero person? Yes, it's despicable. However, condemning everyone that are working for civil rights for non-heteros for the actions of a few is prejudiced and ignorant.

When you go from peaceful protest/pushing via the ballot box to threatening people based on their race and religon. . .you lose the right to moral indignation.

Yeah, no black person or Christian has ever used violence against a gay/bi person.

There exist radicals on both sides. If all we can do is point fingers saying "Yeah, but one of YOU PEOPLE did something bad," we will never make progress. Of course, a lack of progress is what the people spreading their lies and mis-truths about gay marriage want...

[TaylorMade]

You weren't around then. Check your history.

And no black person has ever used derogatory terms towards a non-hetero person? Yes, it's despicable. However, condemning everyone that are working for civil rights for non-heteros for the actions of a few is prejudiced and ignorant.

Yeah, no black person or Christian has ever used violence against a gay/bi person.

There exist radicals on both sides. If all we can do is point fingers saying "Yeah, but one of YOU PEOPLE did something bad," we will never make progress. Of course, a lack of progress is what the people spreading their lies and mis-truths about gay marriage want...

So I'm not allowed to recall something I've read ? I have checked my history, and as far as I know most set backs were not greeted with violence of any sort during the main part of the civil rights movement. As far as I know, well intentioned whites were welcomed and even died for their efforts. . .Just because I wasn't around doesn't mean I can't talk about it.

Well, being that this is a community that prided itself on tolerance, to turn on it's own kind and excusing it as equivalence is nothing more than refusing to address the situation at hand : a nasty undercurrent to not just reverse, but silence and potentially destroy our enemies and possibly turn into them.

There is a lack of progress on both sides. . .on one it's evident. The other is still in denial.

*Taylor*

[goldenfinger]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.

[DiamondDog]

Taylor-I've also been wondering if this will push us back even further? I'm not Roman Catholic or Mormon but I know people who are very Catholic and are big into the politics of the Roman Catholic church.

What did Florida do that you're proud of? I thought they had voted against same gender marriage?

Same gender marriage is something we should be able to have but I think that there are more pressing rights that us queers need more right now.

Such as protection from all harassment/hate crimes, the ability not to be fired from your job or have your home/property taken away because you're LGBT, and other issues as well as the denial of same gender marriage that make us second class citizens.

At least with Obama as the future president we have a chance of these things all happening.

[Toad82]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.

Because we shouldn't have to leave our homes to have a family!

[allbimyself]

So I'm not allowed to recall something I've read ? I have checked my history, and as far as I know most set backs were not greeted with violence of any sort during the main part of the civil rights movement. As far as I know, well intentioned whites were welcomed and even died for their efforts. . .Just because I wasn't around doesn't mean I can't talk about it.

My point is that there WAS violence in some cases. Also, has there been violence now? Large scale riots? No, just some idiots shooting off at the mouth.

Well, being that this is a community that prided itself on tolerance, to turn on it's own kind and excusing it as equivalence is nothing more than refusing to address the situation at hand : a nasty undercurrent to not just reverse, but silence and potentially destroy our enemies and possibly turn into them.

The community hasn't "turned on its own kind." Individuals in the community have said some nasty things. BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

We've had a few individuals in the LGBT community say some racist things. Shame on them. Even if the exit polls show that African-Americans voted for Prop 8 in much higher numbers than whites it shouldn't be a race issue. However, SHAME ON YOU, for blaming the entire LGBT community for the words of a few. You are just as guilty as they are.

Your position is the same as the white bigots that points to every black person that knocks over a liquor store or deals drugs and says "See? Black people aren't civilized!"

BOTH sides of EVERY issue have their share of idiots and radicals. Focus on them if you want. I'm more interested in having discourse with intelligent, thoughtful people. Let the idiots rant and ignore them. They'll always be there. Who is more foolish, the fool or the person that is influenced (one way or the other) by the fool?

I disown the idiots on my side of any issue, just as I hope you disown any black person that derides non-heteros or engages in gay bashing.

[_Joe_]

If same sex people wants to marry, why not just move to MA, where it's legal.
Seems simple.

Because its the United States of America, not the segregated.

[boca.openminded]

You don't know what the churches have to do with this , but you are ready to condemn them. How is that any different to what they do to us?

*Taylor*

yes, I am ready to condemn them because what they are doing is wrong. Why should they get involved with things that have nothing to do with them? Its there way of trying to control the country and make everyone a Christian.

Aren't you a little upset (especially being from Florida) at them for taking away what used to bring in a large amount of money for the state of Florida?

What they did with Fort Lauderdale they are doing with Prop 8. It is none of their business... Like I said before why aren't other organizations getting involved? Answer: because it has nothing to do with them...

The churches are wrong and if you can't see that then you are blind

[darkeyes]

Because its the United States of America, not the segregated.

soz Joe..not quite true...yas 51 states each wiv own laws an legislature an constitution.. that wetha ya like it or not is a kinda segregation...

[gurlydon]

I am astounded too frequently at how politically ignorant my homo- and bi-sexual brothers and sisters are, particularly when it comes to religious and civil practices. So-called Public Education probably is to blame. Marriage is not a "right" but a convention adopted by both religious and civil authorities of different cultures. It's purpose is to encourage childbirth, growth of the cultural community, and adherence to local custom. The political party that appeals to us now because of our sexual choice will be the first to punish or even exterminate us later on when we no longer serve the purposes of the party. Check history, especially the history of International Socialists (aka Communists) and National Socialists (aka Fascists or Nazis). Better it is for all of us to support political parties that will preserve and protect the U. S. Constitution and its original first ten amendments. That way we'll remain protected as persons, not protected temporarily or persecuted eventually as a political class.

[allbimyself]

gurlydon, be careful who you accept kool-aid from.

Marriage conveys onto those that enter into it many benefits. Either remove the political, economic and societal benefits, or grant them to all. End of story. THAT is the Constitution.

[proseros]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

Now-Let me qualify exactly why I feel this way, and while I'm doing it I'll take the time to shamelessly plug my own threads namely the most recent "bisexual ethics" in which is made clear that any sort of thinking or behavioral convention that is homogeneous is "impossible and perverse".

The very "agenda" of "marriage" is a polar, homogenous perversion of actual human communion between men and women. It is the language of ethics we all have been taught and have entrained ourselves to adapt to by habit-and therefore by proxy, and which is therefore completely impossible and perverse because it does not include heterogenous thinking or acting.

We base our entire human evolution, development, thinking and behavior on polar homogeny. We adapt within its impossible and perverse moors if for no other reason,than to include and define ourselves in its context hoping to find a niche we can survive in knowing already that we are living impossibly and perversely, restrained by impossible and perverse ethics explained by polarized language.

As a result our entire world collapses into an adaptation of "secular diversities" which have NO parameters, NO language, and NO ETHICS. We become further divided, misguided, mis-educated and morbidly imbalanced against whatever sort of homogenies we are polarized against.

And we are therefore polarized against ourselves.

When the F*** did overturning a "marriage" affect anything about love, or family, or community, or culture? The Church, the Mormons, the Non-Profit Orgs- has raped our children, murdered in the name of God, has stolen more material and spiritual wealth from humanity and has told more lies than devil himself (They may have even written most of the material for Satan's act).

And YOU want THEM to WRITE THE LANGUAGE OF HETEROGENY TO YOUR BENEFIT? WHAT BENEFIT?

There are more than 40,000,000 people on this planet infected with HIV and those are numbers we can count! Ask your CHURCH what they think about that and do you know what they will tell you?

It is a punishment from GOD; That it is because of SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND A PERVERSION OF THE ETHICS ORDAINED BY GOD AND SANCTIONED BY THE CHURCH. And you want to be able to go to a Church, and get married. And you know what? I hate to say this but-

They're absolutely right. It is a punishment. It is a punishment because IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHURCH TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE BUT ITS OWN PERVERSE AND IMPOSSIBLE ETHICS, WHICH WE BUY INTO, AND HAVE ALWAYS BOUGHT INTO TO OUR OWN DISCOMFORT, DISCONTENT AND WORLDLY DETRIMENT. We have accepted the benefit-of "marriage"-as something necessary and right for our survival and surrendered the responsibility of explaining ourselves in a language that makes sense, that is possible and ethical, lets everyone experience real happiness, real love, real having and holding til death do us part.

There is no language for that anywhere! There is nothing in the right of marriage that has integral benefit other than recognition by a church or by a court. There is nothing in the right of marriage that accommodates or consummates anything up to and including explanation of itself.

Marriage itself-is bullshit. Who cares how it is defined?
You don't need the church.
You don't need the Mormons.
You don't need Non profits.

Just walk away from them. That's the first thing. Stop grovelling at their doorstep for scraps of definition. Don't ask them for anything-and don't accept anything they have to offer. Your motto from now on is-

"NO THANK YOU."

Develop your own language of ethics. Explain your world in REAL heterogenous terms and with REAL heterogenous ethics and re-write the terms of "marriage" and "matrimony" and "family" and "community" and "love" so that it actually means something and is substantiated by evidence [YOU].

I personally am glad that proposition 8 exists because the last thing I would want to see is the government and church define the terms of same-sex "marriage" with THEIR LANGUAGE. They've already got "heterosexuals" hemmed up in their matrix of bullshit. That scares me far more than their deciding not to acknowledge same-sex unions, because they are effectively relinquishing any real say-so in the matter. Marriage is bullshit, "gay marriage" is trying to fit in with the bullshit marriage is, and ALL forms of "marriage" [according to government and church] as long as not heterogenous, should be abolished (now watch this)...



Exactly. You can't even THINK of a world without "marriage",can you?
How could you? You didn't invent it!
And that is the tragedy behind how entrained and inured and dependant we are on church, and government to explain us to ourselves, what we are and how we are expected to adapt to the language of their impossible and perversely polar secular bullshit. So along with the "benefit" of "marriage" we have

infidelity;divorce;divorce court;custody battles;single parents,visitation rights;prenuptials;domestic violence;deviation;molestation; rape, beating,cheating, lying;Down Low;Oprah;Maury;Springer;dead beat dads; abuse; abortion; incest; ACS;CPS;COP;ADD;HIV; and the list goes on and on and on and at the end of the day who profits? THEY DO. Who pays? YOU DO because you allow someone or something else TO DO YOU FOR YOU. I SAY-

"NO THANK YOU."

I am now going to pull my pants down and bend over.
I will either get my ass kicked, or kissed, or licked, or fucked. Have fun.
Peace.

[goldenfinger]

Because we shouldn't have to leave our homes to have a family!

Totally agree, but if the only way at the moment, wouldn't it be better.

[darkeyes]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

Now-Let me qualify exactly why I feel this way, and while I'm doing it I'll take the time to shamelessly plug my own threads namely the most recent "bisexual ethics" in which is made clear that any sort of thinking or behavioral convention that is homogeneous is "impossible and perverse".

The very "agenda" of "marriage" is a polar, homogenous perversion of actual human communion between men and women. It is the language of ethics we all have been taught and have entrained ourselves to adapt to by habit-and therefore by proxy, and which is therefore completely impossible and perverse because it does not include heterogenous thinking or acting.

We base our entire human evolution, development, thinking and behavior on polar homogeny. We adapt within its impossible and perverse moors if for no other reason,than to include and define ourselves in its context hoping to find a niche we can survive in knowing already that we are living impossibly and perversely, restrained by impossible and perverse ethics explained by polarized language.

As a result our entire world collapses into an adaptation of "secular diversities" which have NO parameters, NO language, and NO ETHICS. We become further divided, misguided, mis-educated and morbidly imbalanced against whatever sort of homogenies we are polarized against.

And we are therefore polarized against ourselves.

When the F*** did overturning a "marriage" affect anything about love, or family, or community, or culture? The Church, the Mormons, the Non-Profit Orgs- has raped our children, murdered in the name of God, has stolen more material and spiritual wealth from humanity and has told more lies than devil himself (They may have even written most of the material for Satan's act).

And YOU want THEM to WRITE THE LANGUAGE OF HETEROGENY TO YOUR BENEFIT? WHAT BENEFIT?

There are more than 40,000,000 people on this planet infected with HIV and those are numbers we can count! Ask your CHURCH what they think about that and do you know what they will tell you?

It is a punishment from GOD; That it is because of SEXUAL IMMORALITY AND A PERVERSION OF THE ETHICS ORDAINED BY GOD AND SANCTIONED BY THE CHURCH. And you want to be able to go to a Church, and get married. And you know what? I hate to say this but-

They're absolutely right. It is a punishment. It is a punishment because IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHURCH TO EXPLAIN ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE BUT ITS OWN PERVERSE AND IMPOSSIBLE ETHICS, WHICH WE BUY INTO, AND HAVE ALWAYS BOUGHT INTO TO OUR OWN DISCOMFORT, DISCONTENT AND WORLDLY DETRIMENT. We have accepted the benefit-of "marriage"-as something necessary and right for our survival and surrendered the responsibility of explaining ourselves in a language that makes sense, that is possible and ethical, lets everyone experience real happiness, real love, real having and holding til death do us part.

There is no language for that anywhere! There is nothing in the right of marriage that has integral benefit other than recognition by a church or by a court. There is nothing in the right of marriage that accommodates or consummates anything up to and including explanation of itself.

Marriage itself-is bullshit. Who cares how it is defined?
You don't need the church.
You don't need the Mormons.
You don't need Non profits.

Just walk away from them. That's the first thing. Stop grovelling at their doorstep for scraps of definition. Don't ask them for anything-and don't accept anything they have to offer. Your motto from now on is-

"NO THANK YOU."

Develop your own language of ethics. Explain your world in REAL heterogenous terms and with REAL heterogenous ethics and re-write the terms of "marriage" and "matrimony" and "family" and "community" and "love" so that it actually means something and is substantiated by evidence [YOU].

I personally am glad that proposition 8 exists because the last thing I would want to see is the government and church define the terms of same-sex "marriage" with THEIR LANGUAGE. They've already got "heterosexuals" hemmed up in their matrix of bullshit. That scares me far more than their deciding not to acknowledge same-sex unions, because they are effectively relinquishing any real say-so in the matter. Marriage is bullshit, "gay marriage" is trying to fit in with the bullshit marriage is, and ALL forms of "marriage" [according to government and church] as long as not heterogenous, should be abolished (now watch this)...



Exactly. You can't even THINK of a world without "marriage",can you?
How could you? You didn't invent it!
And that is the tragedy behind how entrained and inured and dependant we are on church, and government to explain us to ourselves, what we are and how we are expected to adapt to the language of their impossible and perversely polar secular bullshit. So along with the "benefit" of "marriage" we have

infidelity;divorce;divorce court;custody battles;single parents,visitation rights;prenuptials;domestic violence;deviation;molestation; rape, beating,cheating, lying;Down Low;Oprah;Maury;Springer;dead beat dads; abuse; abortion; incest; ACS;CPS;COP;ADD;HIV; and the list goes on and on and on and at the end of the day who profits? THEY DO. Who pays? YOU DO because you allow someone or something else TO DO YOU FOR YOU. I SAY-

"NO THANK YOU."

I am now going to pull my pants down and bend over.
I will either get my ass kicked, or kissed, or licked, or fucked. Have fun.
Peace.

Wudn dream a smackin ya poor lil bottie.. an fukkin ya is rite out..

..bit of a rant Pros hun..but agree wiv lots of it.. lots is rite loada bollox tho.. don worry an don fret.. peeps reckon the same thing a me..

[Toad82]

Totally agree, but if the only way at the moment, wouldn't it be better.

I suppose that would be decided by your outlook on life. I prefer never to settle and never to give up. I find it funny that these same people flicking us crap now are the same ones that keep saying we need to be more like them. Now that we are trying they are say except in this.


RJ

[DiamondDog]

I know I'm going to get my ass kicked for this but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't give a shit about Proposition 8, OR same-sex marriage, OR the church- any church. I say NO and F*** ALL OF THEM!

People of the same gender should be allowed to get married and have all the legal benefits of a marriage that two people of the opposite gender can, frequently do, and the right to divorce should be granted to us too.

For myself I'd actually be OK with a civil union to another guy and calling him my husband and having a non religious/spiritual ceremony and all that. I'd also want this to be lawfully valid in all 50 states and whatever countries we visit, and I'd want all the benefits that two people of the opposite gender get when they are legally married together.

I agree with you that marriage itself is a social construct but in this case it's more about wanting and getting equal rights, and not about finally getting them, then having them taken away, getting them again, and then having them taken away yet again.

[proseros]

People of the same gender should be allowed to get married and have all the legal benefits of a marriage that two people of the opposite gender can, frequently do, and the right to divorce should be granted to us too.

For myself I'd actually be OK with a civil union to another guy and calling him my husband and having a non religious/spiritual ceremony and all that. I'd also want this to be lawfully valid in all 50 states and whatever countries we visit, and I'd want all the benefits that two people of the opposite gender get when they are legally married together.

I agree with you that marriage itself is a social construct but in this case it's more about wanting and getting equal rights, and not about finally getting them, then having them taken away, getting them again, and then having them taken away yet again.

And that's exactly the problem because what we are defining as "rights" are NOT rights at all. They are BENEFITS accepted in return for conforming to the social construct prescribed for you anyone who buys into it. Marriage itself has nothing to do with acquiring or being eligible for any "rights". It is the spiritual and physical union between two-or more-loving persons. That's it. The idea of "legality" of marriage is an imposed usurpation of that [otherwise natural] bond that evolved out of adaptation and conformity to standards attached to "marriage" by entities who would not otherwise give a damned about you if you hadn't conformed. Every social industry profits from and exploits "marriage" to define who and what people are in society. If you are "married" you are mentally, financally and emotionally stable, able to commit to "something" and responsible; if you choose not to then you cannot possibly be worth anything in society. Everything we are is based on our conforming to homogenous rules that do not mean anything except to those who invented them.

NO THANK YOU. I do not think "gay marriage" should be legalized simply because that puts control of how marriage is to be defined in the hands of those who have legalized it, and gives those entites power to determine what "rights" such couples should or should not have-when in fact those "rights" existed from the very beginning. The whole idea of "equal" rights is an oxymoron since it can only be defined against an "unequal" right, leaving open the question of who should have it and who should not.

I've had this same argument about the right to vote, which convicted felons do not have. Being a felon does not remove the ability to have a position on who should run the country, and as long as anyone has a position they should be allowed to vote as long as they are a citizen capable of doing so.

But the right to vote clearly is NOT a RIGHT. It is a BENEFIT given to those who are deemed fit to have it. The same applies to marriage. Whatever benefits apply to married hetero couples should apply to EVERYONE regardless, and as long as you depend on some other entity for those benefits you are surrendering your autonomy and allow them to define what those benefits should be-or not.

We've got to open up our eyes and realize that it is a handful of mongrels who are doing inventing the rules and calling them "rights" and distributing them as "eligible benfits" to those who conform to accept them.

Here's a plate of shit-I'll give a million dollars if you eat it.
So you can go on the internet and watch "2girls 1cup"-for free.

Do the math-first.
And then go figure.

[darkeyes]

We've got to open up our eyes and realize that it is a handful of mongrels who are doing inventing the rules and calling them "rights" and distributing them as "eligible benfits" to those who conform to accept them.

Pros hun.. 1ce gain wotya sez has sum sense but in the end yas playin wiv words a lil.. "benefits" "rights" it don matta wotya call em.. so Human Rights aint rites at all but benefits?? It don matta. Course in ne society ther will b those who hav had ther summa rights suspended from 'em.. sum who hav not yet qualified for 'em.. its the principle that all in the end r equal unda the law.. well long as yas not a babba an unda the age a majority.. or broken societies rules... we kno its bollox of course.. cos we r not treated equally unda the law... not even if we r adult, law abidin, str8, married wiv the perfect nuclear family, in a job an support avidly the establishment... the law dus not treat us equally... "mongrels" as u call 'em pull the strings.. hav the power wicheva political organisation rules the country.. an the thing is..we let 'em...

Do actually agree wivya ya bout prisoners an votin.. its a pretty contentious issue, but sum European countries hav it an it works pretty well. Me thinks the fact that yas bein incarcerated an hav lost ya liberty shud b enuff punishment..

.. aaaah rich an powerful men..dontcha jus luff 'em...

[Sabby]

ok all, I have one thing to say to all faiths !!

IF MARRAIGE IS SO DAMN SACRED....... BAN DIVORCE !!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID !!!!!!!

[darkeyes]

ok all, I have one thing to say to all faiths !!

IF MARRAIGE IS SO DAMN SACRED....... BAN DIVORCE !!!!!!!

NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID !!!!!!!

Ther not enuff misery in the world then Sabby? U wanna heap on it in spades???

Not up 2 the churches 2 ban it ne way..the RC lot don recognise divorce an even in Italy ya can get divorced...

So if its the civil authorities that make the laws on marriage..wtf it got 2 do wiv the churches???

[shagamatic]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God. I am not a religious person myself; but I was raised in a southern baptist household and was thoroughly indoctrinated into their way of thinking.
I support same sex marriage; and I feel very strongly that there should be
complete seperation between church and state! However, since that is not a reality at the present time, perhaps it would be best to settle with civil union rights until public opinion changes.
I do sometimes get the impression that christians have become more involved in politics because they feel that their beliefs are under attack: prayer in schools, commandments on buildings, etc.. It seems that both sides are becoming more ardent in their agendas.
It seems to me that much of the world is becoming more tolerant of different customs and lifestyles - even if painfully slow at times. I wonder, if the progressives were to go a bit slower and not push so hard, would the rest of society come around in time? I think they would.:

[Toad82]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God. I am not a religious person myself; but I was raised in a southern baptist household and was thoroughly indoctrinated into their way of thinking.
I support same sex marriage; and I feel very strongly that there should be
complete seperation between church and state! However, since that is not a reality at the present time, perhaps it would be best to settle with civil union rights until public opinion changes.
I do sometimes get the impression that christians have become more involved in politics because they feel that their beliefs are under attack: prayer in schools, commandments on buildings, etc.. It seems that both sides are becoming more ardent in their agendas.
It seems to me that much of the world is becoming more tolerant of different customs and lifestyles - even if painfully slow at times. I wonder, if the progressives were to go a bit slower and not push so hard, would the rest of society come around in time? I think they would.:

Sometimes society needs the push.

[Falke]

Sometimes society needs the push.

Further, Christianity does not have sole ownership of marriage.

[Toad82]

Further, Christianity does not have sole ownership of marriage.

I really think between our two sentences we said it all.

[shagamatic]

Quote: Sometimes society needs a push.
True, but if you try to change "tradition" too fast people will resist. I am not saying that it is right, it is just reality.

[FalconAngel]

I can't help but think that the main opposition to same-sex marriage, by christians, is in calling the union marriage. Most christians view marriage as a sacred bond sanctioned by God.

And that is another reason that the laws created through their efforts is in violation of the Constitution.

To them marriage is sanctioned by their God. It, in Christian eyes, would technically invalidate everyone who is not married under their God's eyes. Folks like my wife and I, who were married in a traditional Pagan handfasting, under the eyes of our Gods and Goddesses, as well as every one who is married in something that is not of Christian faith.

The Christians responsible for these amoral and unconstitutional laws do not care one lick for anyone who does not toe the line that they establish for everyone (which particularly includes those NOT of Christian faith).

Here's something else that many do not know;
In order to be legal, any law that passes in a state must be in compliance with the civil liberties as established by the US Constitution. Any law that passes in a state, that is not in compliance with the US Constitution, is not lawfully enforceable.

Our biggest problem, in this country, is that too many of us do not know the history of our world. If more of us did, then we would see these things happening before they came to pass and could do more to prevent it.

The Christians don't care about history because it does not serve the power-mad leaders, just like in the dark ages and through the end of the Renaissance.

This is why our founding fathers place the clause in the Constitution that we call "separation of church and state". It is to prevent the church, or any one religion, from taking over the government.

Here is what we lose under church rule;

1. Freedom of speech. The church will decide what is acceptable and what they can jail you for under the latest "heresy" laws.

2. Scientific advancement. Evolution, Earth sciences, history and other sciences are no longer taught, but Creationism is. To contradict the church on this will constitute heresy, just like in the middle ages.

3. Technological edge over the enemies of America. See #1 and 2 for the reasons why.

4. Freedom of the Press. The church leadership will decide what the public will be allowed to know about.

5. Freedom of religion. The church will mandate a national religion and anyone not of that religion, or caught practicing an "unapproved" religion or anyone who violates the laws, as established by the church, will be jailed (or worse) for the crime of heresy, just as it happened in the Middle Ages.

It is our Constitution that makes us the last bastion of freedom in this world.

If the Religious nuts are allowed to take over, then that will be gone.....perhaps forever.

[shagamatic]

To Falcon Angels' post above: All true - most religions are tyrannical.