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  1. #1

    Post Prop 8 and Churches

    (Los Angeles, California) Energized by a comeback win, conservative activists want to apply the same formula they used to outlaw same-sex marriage in California to prevent other states from recognizing gay unions and President-elect Barack Obama from expanding the rights of gays and lesbians.

    Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed.

    Same-sex marriage bans also won in Arizona and Florida. But in putting together the California victory, the coalition overcame opposition from the state’s political establishment and assumptions about how voters in the famously tolerant state would respond to taking away the rights the state’s highest court granted this spring.

    “Everyone told me it could not be done, people do not care about this enough, you will be overwhelmed and you will lose,” said Maggie Gallagher, executive director of the National Organization for Marriage, a New Jersey group that provided seed money early this year to qualify the measure for the ballot.

    “This is an issue people care about when they understand what is at stake and we mount a vigorous and visible defense of marriage,” Gallagher said.

    Same-sex couples are expected to start marrying next week in Connecticut, the third state after Massachusetts and California where courts have held it was unconstitutional to bar same-sex couples from marrying.

    Unlike California, Connecticut does not have an initiative process that would allow voters to override the judicial decision there. So Gallagher said anti-gay marriage groups plan to focus next on New Jersey and New York, where the state legislatures are being lobbied to pass laws legalizing same-sex marriage.

    The plan is to mobilize the same religious factions that joined forces in California to deter lawmakers from “taking on this divisive social issue while we are in the middle of a huge financial crisis,” Gallagher said.

    Campaign operatives attribute their success to the churches, which served as voter registration centers, phone banks and volunteer recruitment hubs.

    Religious institutions also gave Proposition 8’s sponsors an avenue to a range of ethnic voters, including many Democrats, said Mat Staver, who heads the Florida-based Christian legal group Liberty Counsel.

    Catholic and evangelical Hispanics and African-American Baptists stood alongside conservative white evangelicals in arguing for traditional marriage. Exit polls showed 70 percent of blacks supported the ban, a far higher percentage than any other race.

    “This is an issue that … transcends political ideology, religious affiliations, races and time and history,” said Staver. “It brings people together who ordinarily wouldn’t be sitting at the same table together.”

    Gay-right activists attribute their loss in California in large part to overconfidence among Proposition 8 opponents. Although polls showed the measure far behind in mid-September, the Yes-on-8 campaign was raising far more money than its opponents.

    “There was a lot of complacency. People didn’t believe it could have been this close, so we had to scramble to raise money.” said Yvette Martinez, political director for Equality for All, the coalition of gay, civil rights and liberal religious groups formed to fight the initiative.

    Martinez also blamed a Yes-on-8 TV ad featuring a little girl telling her mother she had learned in school that she could grow up to marry a princess. Spanish-language ads were released on the same theme.

    Proposition 8 says nothing about education, but gay-marriage opponents say allowing same-sex weddings would have affected what California public-school students are taught. Gay-rights groups disputed that, noting that the schools already are required to teach tolerance of gays and lesbians.

    “Those lies penetrated,” said Martinez. “People believed that we were going to force gay marriage into the classroom, and there is no getting around people wanting to protect their children and to make decisions for their own family.”

    Perhaps the most crucial faith-based ingredient of the California campaign was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Mormon church was invited into the coalition by San Francisco’s Roman Catholic Archbishop George Neiderauer, who previously spent 11 years as bishop of the Catholic diocese of Utah.

    Mormons make up less than 2 percent of the California population with a religious preference, but it is widely believed that church members around the country were responsible for a major share of the more than $36 million raised to pass the gay marriage ban.

    Gay-marriage opponents say the bipartisan, multiracial alliance that helped Proposition 8 pass could be instrumental in fighting any steps Obama takes as president to expand the rights of gays and lesbians.

    “Those can be activated and pressure can be put on senators and congressional leaders who are not as left-leaning as Barack Obama to not follow his agenda,” Staver said.

    During his campaign for the White House, Obama pledged to work for repeal of the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act, which prevents the federal government from affording Social Security and other benefits to same-sex couples. He also vowed to reverse the Defense Department policy that prevents openly gay people from serving in the military.

    Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said she isn’t worried the Proposition 8 campaign has produced a new political juggernaut, noting that the religious denominations that worked together in California have deep theological and spiritual differences.

    Kendell, who was raised Mormon, said she was astonished to see black pastors working alongside members of a religion that did not allow blacks to serve as priests until she was in high school.

    “Any time a coalition is formed for the expediency of one issue, it is very hard to hold it together,” Kendell said.

    I urge anyone reading the above article to read the page in the following link. And if you feel the same way as the owners of the page, sign the petition, as well as send the link on to others. They keep saying it is nothing personal, but it is our lives, how can we see it as anything else? If they want to raise millions to take away rights, I say fine. But when they are doing it with a church tax-exempt status and a non-profit status their side gets to raise money and take deductions while “our” side has to raise more money to make the same. More people will be willing to give to a “charity” and write it off than just give to a political interest. As long as they (the churches) are lobbying for state propositions they should be denied tax-exempt status.

    http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  2. #2

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!
    "Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere..." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #3

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by 12voltman59 View Post
    I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!
    I hope so. The fact they now want to organize with other faiths and go from state to state and then maybe country to country and do the same thing scares me.


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  4. #4

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I usually don't sign online petitions. I've made an exception in this case. I'll admit that I was ignorant that so many churches were involved in the Prop 8 fight prior to the election. (That was easy from this far away and my erroneous assumption that such a thing wouldn't pass in California.)

    On hearing of the involvement of so many churches, not just the LDS, my immediate reaction was along the lines of those organizing the petition. How is it that I can not deduct political contributions from my taxes, but organizations that enjoy tax-exempt status can pour dollars into a political campaign? This isn't a free speech issue as I'm sure many will claim, it's simply a matter of leveling the playing field, taking away the bullhorn that tax-free political spending given to churches have that no other political organization has. Any organization that can accept tax-free donations from individuals and then spend that money in support of political agendas without also paying taxes itself has a HUGE advantage over other organizations.

    If they want to preach their hate to the congregations, that's their business. If, however, they want to spend money influencing politics, they have crossed the line into being a PAC and should lose their tax-exempt status.

  5. #5

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I just find it ironic that they, the Mormons, would choose to deny others their rights to live as they wish. Consitering they had to migrate to Salt Lake to even live as they wish to begin with. Same goes with the Christian sects in general. There was a time that Christians did have to live the same way that gays did...underground for fear of persecution. It's funny how people forget that...
    *Insert witty comment here*

  6. #6

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by 12voltman59 View Post
    ......and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!
    Signed it as well. And we can only hope that every church that has funded these unconstitutional laws loses their tax exempt status.

    The only problem with that, though, is in the long run it may work against us all. If they lose the tax exempt status, then they are free to do what they please; which means that they can lobby, unabated, against the 1st amendment and further tear away at our nation's founding principles.

    What needs to happen is that a Constitutional amendment needs to be passed that no law may be voted on or enacted until after it has passed constitutional muster.

    A law like that would prevent idiotic measures like prop 8 or other equally biased and unconstitutional laws from passing while still allowing reasonable bills to go through the rest of the process to become law.

  7. #7

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAngel View Post

    What needs to happen is that a Constitutional amendment needs to be passed that no law may be voted on or enacted until after it has passed constitutional muster.
    I have said this for years...
    *Insert witty comment here*

  8. #8

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by allbimyself View Post
    I usually don't sign online petitions. I've made an exception in this case. I'll admit that I was ignorant that so many churches were involved in the Prop 8 fight prior to the election. (That was easy from this far away and my erroneous assumption that such a thing wouldn't pass in California.)

    On hearing of the involvement of so many churches, not just the LDS, my immediate reaction was along the lines of those organizing the petition. How is it that I can not deduct political contributions from my taxes, but organizations that enjoy tax-exempt status can pour dollars into a political campaign? This isn't a free speech issue as I'm sure many will claim, it's simply a matter of leveling the playing field, taking away the bullhorn that tax-free political spending given to churches have that no other political organization has. Any organization that can accept tax-free donations from individuals and then spend that money in support of political agendas without also paying taxes itself has a HUGE advantage over other organizations.

    If they want to preach their hate to the congregations, that's their business. If, however, they want to spend money influencing politics, they have crossed the line into being a PAC and should lose their tax-exempt status.

    I too usually don't sign online petitions, but I figured this was more important than my personal beliefs about them. It amazes me that more people are not at least a bit enraged by what they have and are trying to get away with. Its not just about the money issue for me, but also the separation of church and state which this kind of thing is also in clear violation of. Separation of church and state is not just about the government staying out peoples religion, but also of religion not trying to take over government, which in this area they are trying to do.


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  9. #9

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAngel View Post
    The only problem with that, though, is in the long run it may work against us all. If they lose the tax exempt status, then they are free to do what they please; which means that they can lobby, unabated, against the 1st amendment and further tear away at our nation's founding principles.
    They only get the tax exempt status because they are a church, don’t they? I am by far from having a great understanding of our tax system, but from the research I have did I was under the thought that they got tax exempt status because they are a church and 501(c)(3) status because they are a non profit organization. In a way they are playing the field and getting exempt twice. Does anyone know if I am wrong in my thinking?

    Falcon: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t you think they are too traditional to want to call their church anything other than a church. Maybe that is a way to get “them” to understand why “we” want it called a marriage and not just a union.


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  10. #10

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Toad82 View Post
    Falcon: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t you think they are too traditional to want to call their church anything other than a church. Maybe that is a way to get “them” to understand why “we” want it called a marriage and not just a union.RJ
    History has shown that tradition is easily modified by the church if that tradition gets in the way of power and control. Just look at what the church did to Christ's teachings to get conversions and power over the people during the middle ages.

    They even attacked their own (protestant) religion to gain and maintain that power. Reference the 30 years war as proof.

    Ever since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, it has been about power and control. That is the only tradition that these people are really sticking to.

    Their actions are not hard to predict once you know their history.

  11. #11

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAngel View Post
    History has shown that tradition is easily modified by the church if that tradition gets in the way of power and control. Just look at what the church did to Christ's teachings to get conversions and power over the people during the middle ages.

    They even attacked their own (protestant) religion to gain and maintain that power. Reference the 30 years war as proof.

    Ever since Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, it has been about power and control. That is the only tradition that these people are really sticking to.

    Their actions are not hard to predict once you know their history.
    I agree with what you said, but I think it would be a bit harder to change things like that now a days. But honestly I don't really follow the thinking of the theists.
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  12. #12

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Toad82 View Post
    I agree with what you said, but I think it would be a bit harder to change things like that now a days. But honestly I don't really follow the thinking of the theists.
    Hi Toad.
    Actually, I don't care about the theists, Atheists, Christians, even my own religion as far as the subject of religion and what they do. All that matters on the whole subject is if they are staying within the spirit of the law and whether or not they are trying to force their religion's doctrine on the rest of the nation.

    In this particular respect I guess one would call me a Constitutionalist.

    I am a firm believer in the Constitution and what it represents. I support all measures that must be taken to protect the rights created by that document, even protecting the rights of those same Dominion Christians, as long as they stay within the law and the Constitution.

    Fact of the matter, the problem arises when one group says that their way is the only way and nothing else and no one else matters.

    That is the real issue in all of this. As far as I see it, the LDS and everyone who supported Prop 8 and all of the various "DOMA" laws should be tried as traitors. They have taken rights away from citizens because of their sexuality, effectively forcing them to live a lie should they wish to marry at all.

    They took action to disassemble the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That is an act of treason the way I, as a veteran, see it.

    As US citizens we have a lot of rights.
    But along with those rights is an inherent responsibility.
    That responsibility is to treat each other with the same respect that we wish to receive, obey the laws that are in compliance with the Constitution and to understand what those rights, as laid out in our Constitution and it's amendments, mean. It is written in plain and simple language so as to eliminate confusion.

    But the LDS and other Dominion Christians have decided to interpret that Constitution through their religion, thinking that this is a Christian nation, when it is a secular nation.

    Those traitors in the LDS and their treasonous supporters broke that compact, that they have as US citizens, and should be penalized accordingly. This should include the dis-assembly of their church structure, surrender their church property, and all church assets, to the people of the United States. They broke faith with their nation's founding principles.

    The slap on the wrist that they will probably get from the IRS will not deter them from doing this again, but serious damage to their church's finances and ability to regain that financial power might just teach them humility enough to not try it again (at least for a generation or two).

    They could get along just fine with us all, if only they would keep their religion out of government.

  13. #13

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAngel View Post
    Hi Toad.
    Actually, I don't care about the theists, Atheists, Christians, even my own religion as far as the subject of religion and what they do. All that matters on the whole subject is if they are staying within the spirit of the law and whether or not they are trying to force their religion's doctrine on the rest of the nation.

    In this particular respect I guess one would call me a Constitutionalist.

    I am a firm believer in the Constitution and what it represents. I support all measures that must be taken to protect the rights created by that document, even protecting the rights of those same Dominion Christians, as long as they stay within the law and the Constitution.

    Fact of the matter, the problem arises when one group says that their way is the only way and nothing else and no one else matters.

    That is the real issue in all of this. As far as I see it, the LDS and everyone who supported Prop 8 and all of the various "DOMA" laws should be tried as traitors. They have taken rights away from citizens because of their sexuality, effectively forcing them to live a lie should they wish to marry at all.

    They took action to disassemble the 1st and 14th amendments to the US Constitution. That is an act of treason the way I, as a veteran, see it.

    As US citizens we have a lot of rights.
    But along with those rights is an inherent responsibility.
    That responsibility is to treat each other with the same respect that we wish to receive, obey the laws that are in compliance with the Constitution and to understand what those rights, as laid out in our Constitution and it's amendments, mean. It is written in plain and simple language so as to eliminate confusion.

    But the LDS and other Dominion Christians have decided to interpret that Constitution through their religion, thinking that this is a Christian nation, when it is a secular nation.

    Those traitors in the LDS and their treasonous supporters broke that compact, that they have as US citizens, and should be penalized accordingly. This should include the dis-assembly of their church structure, surrender their church property, and all church assets, to the people of the United States. They broke faith with their nation's founding principles.

    The slap on the wrist that they will probably get from the IRS will not deter them from doing this again, but serious damage to their church's finances and ability to regain that financial power might just teach them humility enough to not try it again (at least for a generation or two).

    They could get along just fine with us all, if only they would keep their religion out of government.


    Remind me to buy you a beer should we ever cross paths.
    *Insert witty comment here*

  14. #14

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Well said Falcon.
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  15. #15

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I signed! I was already mad because this morning I got one of those "we need prayer in schools and God in the government and look our country is going to hell in a handbasket because we stopped those things" emails from my parents. I was only too happy to take action.

  16. #16

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I usually DON'T fill in anonymous boxes that say "what's your Email?" but I did in this case.

  17. #17

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by 12voltman59 View Post
    I signed it-and I sure hope that the LDS church does lose it's tax exempt status over this issue---it might be that they won a battle only to lose the war!!!
    I am really quite surprised that The LDS church has time to get involved with this issue considering that they have spent so much of their efforts lately trying to "locate" and posthumously "Baptize" Jewish holocaust victims.

    All religions are weird.... some or just weirder than others.

  18. #18

    Post Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Even more of a reason to stand up for ourselves.

    http://www.365gay.com/news/mormons-b...de-memo-shows/


    They have also already came out and said they will be trying what they did with Prop 8 in Connecticut. From state to state they are trying to cut away the rights of those that don’t believe the same as them.


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  19. #19

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Not only is the Mormon Church getting involved in this area---so is the Catholic Church.

    The Catholic Church is also conducting a major campaign to "finally rid America of the evil of abortion!"

    They are putting in millions of church funds to this end---it seems to me that both the Mormon and Catholic churches have. with this increased level of open advocacy regarding these isuses--- have stepped across the line from merely being religious faiths with their dogmas, teachings, etc. regarding these and other issues---to being glorified advocacy groups----

    I have been a lapsed Catholic---with a long time love/hate relationship---but I guess that since they have some out with a series of advertisements in major US newspapers in recent months stating their positions on abortion--I am no longer a Catholic based upon this one line in an ad: "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate that takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism."

    If that is the case---then so be it!! (obviously I voted for a candidate who supports abortion rights or at least does not favor bannig them--not a racist one since I voted for Barack Obama)

    As the Church has also long taught us: "Follow your conscience."

    My conscience tells me that I have to be in support of issues and candidates that extend the most amount of rights to the most amount of people---as I have said before on both same-sex marriage and abortion/reproductive rights---I favor both on the grounds that it is a fundamental rights issue--and that America is about extending rights to its citizens---not denying them.
    Last edited by 12voltman59; Nov 13, 2008 at 2:36 PM.
    "Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere..." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

  20. #20

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    More I think about it, the more it steams me. If they used chruch money to drive politics, they should lose their tax status.

    Well, on the iPhone I read how Utah/Mormon church is promoting gay union rights to come into the next year, because they agree that gay/lesbian/bi have rights... just not the right to marry. Well, now I can't find that darn link.

    However stumbled onto how there is a boycott of the Sundance Festival in progress which is a huge amount of money for them..

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600396/

    Anyway, here found the link i was looking for.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27666295/

    SALT LAKE CITY - Gay-rights activists see opportunities for their cause in Utah thanks to Mormon church officials, who strongly supported California's proposition denying same-sex couples the right to marry but said they did not object to granting those couples certain other rights.

    The advocacy group Equality Utah is asking The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to support several bills that will be submitted to the Legislature supporting rights for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.
    Well, a full read tells me this... They realized 'holy crap we pissed them off...we gotta give them some sort of leadway, just not the entire way".


    No matter I say. strip them of their tax exempt status. In these economic times though they may end up behind the auto industry for a bailout ><

  21. #21

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    I signed it too. I'm also pissed about the RC church and this little tidbit I found.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/...bama_catholics

    You shouldn't have communion until you do pennance for voting for a pro-choice candidate? So, once their born in the "wrong" country, we can bomb their asses, right? And once they are born, who cares if they get healthcare, education, or the right to marry.

    As I finally got my pro-life oldest child to understand, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm anti stupid white men in suits deciding anything about MY uterus!

    Anyway, I think any church voicing it's opinion on what is a legal issue should lose their 501(c)3.

  22. #22

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by HighEnergy View Post
    I signed it too. I'm also pissed about the RC church and this little tidbit I found.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081113/...bama_catholics

    You shouldn't have communion until you do pennance for voting for a pro-choice candidate? So, once their born in the "wrong" country, we can bomb their asses, right? And once they are born, who cares if they get healthcare, education, or the right to marry.

    As I finally got my pro-life oldest child to understand, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm anti stupid white men in suits deciding anything about MY uterus!

    Anyway, I think any church voicing it's opinion on what is a legal issue should lose their 501(c)3.
    This is how the church will install itself back in government. As long as these groups continue to attempt to violate the constitutional rights of Americans, their power will grow until everyone who is not Christian will become lesser citizens with fewer and fewer rights until they do to everyone who disagrees with them the same thing that Hitler tried to do to the Jews.

    And don't say that it can't happen here, because it is happening here. They have had citizens rights violations going back a long way, but we do not stand against them because we figure that it "can't happen here". Well, the passage of amendment 2 in Florida and Prop 8 in California says, in a very loud and clear voice, that it HAS happened.

    We must fight back. Not just for our rights, but for everyone's rights. For the protection of those rights. For the destruction of church rule.....once and for all.

    Religion MUST stay out of government if this nation is to continue as a free nation.

  23. #23

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. Perpetuating violence is not going to help. Intimidation tactics are not going to help. And calling black gays the N-word? As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

    Seriously.

    *Taylor*
    Last edited by TaylorMade; Nov 15, 2008 at 11:04 PM.
    You can't change the way I am. . .are you strong enough to be my man?
    --Sheryl Crow

    Protect your unicorn!!

    Pssst! There's naked men ------------->Here!


    آزادی راست کاملاموجودات ذی شعوراست


    Thank you. . .

  24. #24

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorMade View Post
    Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. Perpetuating violence is not going to help. Intimidation tactics are not going to help. And calling black gays the N-word? As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

    Seriously.

    *Taylor*
    I have been following everything that has been happening fairly closely and it truly is sad how some are behaving. I find it nice there are those that are now/again having an emotional response to things, but these few are just making it worse by not thinking it out. As things are going I can’t see a US Supreme Court Justice not retiring or dying within four years making a liberal leaning court. I think if people just stay cool, that before January 20th, 2013 equal marriage will be in place in either more states or all states.


    RJ
    I always seem to be a foot and a half from where I want to be.

  25. #25

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorMade View Post
    Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. Perpetuating violence is not going to help. Intimidation tactics are not going to help. And calling black gays the N-word? As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

    Seriously.

    *Taylor*
    In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

    Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.

  26. #26

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by HighEnergy View Post
    In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

    Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.
    If there is proof of this, then it makes sense. But as you said, it is difficult to prove.

    *Taylor*
    You can't change the way I am. . .are you strong enough to be my man?
    --Sheryl Crow

    Protect your unicorn!!

    Pssst! There's naked men ------------->Here!


    آزادی راست کاملاموجودات ذی شعوراست


    Thank you. . .

  27. #27

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorMade View Post
    Whatever you do, do it legally. Threatening people is not going to help. Perpetuating violence is not going to help. Intimidation tactics are not going to help. And calling black gays the N-word? As far as I know what the churches did with Proposition 8 was legal. We may not like it, but I don't think they warrant the violence. What has happened in reaction...at best is beneath us, and at worst. . .becoming the very thing we fear.

    Seriously.

    *Taylor*
    *Looks sheepish noddin agreement wiv Taylor.. don happen 2 often*.

    Peaceful protest an demonstration is the only way 2 go.. ova the las 40 years or so it has gotten us a long way down the road in our quest for acceptance an equality.. we not ther yet as Prop 8 shows but we r makin huge inroads.. we cant blow it now by actin stupid an havin a reputation for violence attached 2 us.. let the bigots act like arsoles.. that plays inta our hands an gets us the kudos, the sympathy an undastandin we need 2 move forward.. but we shud neva incite or intimidate in ne way wich cud b construed as violent.. ther lies the road 2 catastrophe for our cause...
    Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

  28. #28

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    At first I was bummed at the win of Prop 8--but if you look at the numbers--the measure only passed by a narrwo margin--taking the long view---the attitude regarding "gays" in at least the American society---has come a long way from where it was a half-century and even a quarter-century ago,

    This is gonna be like the abolition of slavery movement--then later "Civil Rights"--you win a few battles----you lose a few---the trend is to go more progressive, open, accepting and inclusive.

    It is progress that we now have two states that allow same-sex marriage---hopefully the right will prevail in Connecticut and Mass.

    This is one of those things that is a few steps forward--a few steps back--but the march goes on and forward.

    "The forces of darkness" as I like to think of those who oppose same-sex marriage--- are on the wrong side of history-----in another generation or so---"gays" will be fully intergrated into the whole of society--and one day---when a kid reads in a high school text book there was a time that gays could not marry--he or she will go "really--why not??--that is crazy----it is no BFD! They do it all the time now!!" Just like we don't think all that much anymore about interracial marriages. It is almost hard to believe they were illegal not all that long ago.
    "Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere..." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

  29. #29

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by HighEnergy View Post
    In order to maintain a church's non-profit status, any employee of the church must not state their political views from the pulpit or any other mode of communication to sway the beliefs of it's members toward any political group. In other words, a priest may say who he'll vote for and why to select friends but not during a service, or bible study, newsletter or leader's meeting.

    Note that the church may say that abortion is a sin, or homosexuality is a sin, but they may not actively work to change the laws. Pro-life groups are always seperate from the church. They are housed in secular buildings away from the church property. They may not require attendance at a particular church to belong to the pro-life group. So, if in fact the Mormon church did solicit money for Prop 8, they have indeed crossed the line. If they did in fact state from the pulpit, newsletters, etc. to send money to support the law, they did cross the line. Now proving it will be more difficult. If Joe Smoe at the church decided to talk to all his friends at church to get them to send money there's nothing that can be done. But if a church leader solicited funds, then they can lose their non-profit status.
    Sorry, I disagree. They can SAY whatever they want (within free speech limits... e.g. cannot advocate violence). They can even say it on the street.

    The problem here is spending church funds to purchase media (TV, print, internet, whatever) to support or oppose a political measure, proposition, candidate, amendment, whatever. Donations to a church are tax deductible. Churches themselves are NOT taxed. Therefore, tax free dollars are used to influence politics. No one... no person, PAC, union, or any other institution can do that. Any church that does that should lose it's tax exempt status AND lose the ability to accept tax-free donations. I'd even go so far as to say that if they suggest members donate to PACs that support their position they are in violation of the establishment clause.

    Now, if they want to organize their members to go door-to-door to talk to people about the issue/candidate, that is protected speech. Sorry.

    What you are proposing is that we regulate WHY someone supports or opposes a political issue. That is not only impossible, it is very dangerous.
    Last edited by allbimyself; Nov 16, 2008 at 12:08 PM.

  30. #30

    Re: Prop 8 and Churches

    An old university friend of my partner has had his marriage struck down because of proposition 8. Undeterred he and his partner are coming home in the New Year to cement their relationship under English law. It may not legally be called marriage in this country but it is that in all but name.

    When the day comes that in America same sex weddings are allowed by law they intend to renew their vows to each other to solidify the commitment they have to each other.

    Proposition 8 should not cause despair but rather a greater determination by the gay and bisexual community to achieve what is rightfully ours.

 

 

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