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I just finished this book and it is a fascinating read. Like the reviewer I may not agree with all of the author's conclusions, it is a valuable resource in exposing the lies of the American right in its efforts to keep down homosexuality and bisexuality. It has lessons for everyone interested in progressing the rights of "queer" people all over the western world.
Highly recommended to all.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2300636.html
I want to read this! Thanks for posting it :)
Hmm, Good to read, historically and factually sound: I like it!
What's new,,,all kind of sexuality goes back to the beginning of time.:eek:
Which is precisely, despite attempts by certain sections of American society, what the book says in its own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenfinger
The contribution of gay and bisexual people to the welfare and well being of the United States is outstanding and should not be air brushed into oblivion.
I know that throughout history the idea of open relationships between men in the public view has gone through cycles of being accepted or not. In the 1800's it was possible to men to write affectionate letters to one another and apparently it was accepted, I have also seen some interesting tin-type photos with guys on each other's lap, etc.
Contrast that with the McCarthism in the 50's..not a very good time for liberal or "dissident" people.
That's one reason why I admire Native American culture because they seem to have respect for people as a part of creation, even when those same people don't have respect for themselves. It seems a lot more balanced because they don't hide a natural part of life. Suppressing so much in the Victorian way may have created some problems for Euro-Centric people. Yeah, we seem so proud to publicly SAY we don't have a "caste" system - at least not overtly but..
It was not only in the Americas that native peoples had a more tolerant acceptance of homosexuality. Apart from the ancient greeks, the ancient Celtic peoples of Europe also had no difficulty with homosexuality.
Some scholars claim that homosexuality was disapproved of for men, but there is evidence that where disapproval existed it was disapproval of a very mild kind, but evidence exists from Roman chronicles that it was quite generally accepted throughout the celtic world and was a major reason Rome believed celts to be degenerate barabarians. Of course these chronicles are written by the victors, and can be called into question but as much evidence exists for the accuracy of their view as for any other.
That lesbianism was accepted is a general view, and evidence exists that it was actually encouraged and expected in celtic society.
Other European tribal peoples of the same time also had no problem with homosexuality so the celts were not alone. Germanic tribes and slavs, and hispanic peoples for instance.
The Imperial Augustine dictates of sex and sexuality, ultimately reinforced by the early christian view is the major reason why European and American attitudes to sex and sexuality are so tortuous. We live with those attitudes today, and the poison was exported to and imposed upon many native societies around the globe, not least of which was to those native peoples and tribes of North America. Two millenia of proscription and condemnation are a difficult habit to break.
I have ordered the book from Amazon, so thank you for drawing it to my attention, Sammie.
The thread reminded me of a joke, or bit of a koan.
Someone approached a sage guru of Eastern thought and society. They asked "what do you think of Western society?"
The reply was "there's a Western society?"
The Greeks were genuine, the Romans - not so much and of course who did our culture idolize? The God Mars and "the great Roman Civilization"..they picked the one that was window dressing - to actually pick the one that genuinely came up with the mathematical theories, philosophy, etc....that takes hard work. All of the true innovation came from the Greeks - the Romans just assimilated it. Same story to a certain degree, prim and proper decorum up front and a good ol' rogerring around the back.. Funny now that I think of it I guess you could say that the Greeks perfected philosophy, the Romans perfected politics. But Roman Society to me still is no where near as dysfunctional and "hard core" as the extremes of Victorian Society, not sure why I think that because for a normal person living in either one it was probably hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katja
Near as I can tell humanity seems to have evolved 2-4 models of sexuality in culture - the "Western" one, and there is another one that seems to be more prevalent in indigenous culture.
One thing that I try to remember is it was not uncommon for men to share a bed together earlier in history - life was also a lot harder then so I try not to think too hard about Lincoln sleeping with anyone else because to be honest for a lot of guys in the 1800's it may have just been a matter sharing the rent bill and sleeping in a bed was preferable to sleeping on the floor. Likewise I can understand Spartan male lovers because if trust someone with your life, protect them and fight beside them, probably develop some pretty strong bonds there.
And the Greeks borrowed from Phoenicians and Egyptians. Actually some bits of reason to suggest the Greeks were originally Turkish folks. Greeks also had a lot of interesting engineering ideas. One example Grecian engineer was Archimedes of Syracuse. Of course, we still owe lots to one known as the Thrice Great One, Hermes. I've found references to or of him in about a half dozen histories or cultures. The Sumerian called him Marduk, Egyptians had Horus I believe, Greeks had Hermes or Hippocrates, Prometheus.
He brought us fire, writing, arts, medicine, agriculture. Some Sumerian reference him as Enki, also. Enki brought us a means of currency, too. He had the Me, tablets which had his instructions to be carried out in his name. "Give them this Me if they ask what is to do." He explained Me further to a lowly farmer who needed iron for nails but couldn't attain it. Enki gave him the Me to take to the miners and metallurgists.
I think this somewhat legendary, perhaps god like character was a polymath. Albeit I further think this person had far too much time for studying humanity.
Hmm, I think I drove through Syracuse once, it was okay. Yes, and the tradition of recycling mythology continued well past that point as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by void_dweller
..ah the value of money.Quote:
Enki brought us a means of currency, too. He had the Me, tablets which had his instructions to be carried out in his name. "Give them this Me if they ask what is to do." He explained Me further to a lowly farmer who needed iron for nails but couldn't attain it. Enki gave him the Me to take to the miners and metallurgists.
Don't even get me started about the Egyptians, you might say bast is my patron saint...they had a pretty big library at one time. I have to say that I don't know much about Egyptian sexual practices..other than a few bits of art I saw on a mural once.
Elian, I had an Egyptian bf for a little while. He wasnt an ancient Egyptian, but his practices were remarkably similar to guys from this country. Apart from an annoying habit of hand washing straight after which I presume had something to do with his religion. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammie19
Yeah, I guess when you said "History" I went back a little far.. After I posted yesterday I read some pretty freaky things on the internet about ancient Egyptian sex but you never know if those are true, or just someone's fantasies.
In the end people are people, although I do admire how open some other cultures are, without completely wrapping around the other way into insanity - like the way over politicized Americans react to make a point in saying that "what's to stop a person from marrying another species?" What a stupid question that completely misses the entire point of human rights. I'm very happy that they legalized marriage in NYC, while still allowing churches who don't want to perform the ceremony a way to opt out. I hope that legislation will be a model for other states. I know there are many churches that won't marry LGBT but there are some that would have no issue with it. - so now everyone can be happy right?
..and to keep it on topic..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KC7uhMY9s
I guess this song was more about the war and segregation than gay rights but for some reason I'm still drawn to it. I'm almost sorry for posting the video because I mean no disrespect to those who have served - your sacrifice is why I can sit here today and speak my mind ..there aren't words that can say the gratitude enough for that..
A little more information about the Egyptian bf. He wasn't that liberated. He was very devoutly Muslim which reared its ugly head when he found out I was bisexual. Thats why he became an ex bf, or rather I an ex gf. He said some very ugly things to me as he told me what I could do with myself.:(
His religion and his devoutness however did stop at getting in the way of satisfying his own sexual needs. I do believe the word is hypocrisy.:)
Yes, I suspected that Egyptians were very strict about sex, adultery punishable severely, etc. but I didn't want to paint a big broad label over anyone. I once IM'd with a guy from Egypt but the only English words he knew where "Fuk Ass" - so it was a pretty short conversation..still for him to transmit that might have been brave.
We do have a lot of freedom, relatively speaking - compared to some places in the world. I've been around the block with a cultural anthropology class and I know it is wrong to judge other cultures. Of course the world would be pretty boring if we were all the same.. but have to wonder sometimes when education and liberty is suppressed based on race or gender - it's an old story - I guess in this country the penal colony and the "misfits" finally had enough.
Of course now that other countries have gotten off the ground "industrializing" you might say some of them aspire to be "just like us.". They are starting to compete with Americans for the same jobs, food, water, oil - it makes things a little uncomfortable over here - I'm not sure the general populous have connected all the dots yet..there are still plenty of politicians, institutions and corporations to point the finger at yet before we get down to actual underlying causes - not even sure I know what those really are.
I'm glad that Obama demonstrated to folks in the Middle East that a political protest can be just as effective as blowing up a bus full of innocent schoolchildren..you can silence a single person, but ideas replicate like computer viruses.
I'm not trying to be xenophobic, just trying to find the patterns..
I know some very nice Christian boys who are no different Sammie. Hypocrisy is not exclusive to people of only one religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammie19
Please Elian and Katja. Please don't think I was showing any religious bias. He is just one of many shits of all religions and none.
Elian, I know that the nastier among us will always find a scapegoat and that they often come from the most surprising places. If a reason to discriminate doesn't exist, it will be invented.
I know you were just sharing your experience, no worries, it is good of Katja to remind us that prejudice knows no bounds.
The human mind is actually wired to discriminate so we probably won't ever get away from that but we can try to be rational and not label one individual or a whole group of people just because of "what we think we know" about race or class without direct personal experience.
I try to remember the many peaceful Muslim people I have heard about, despite all of the constant news stories here about suicide bombings and casualties. I know that radical fundamentalists exist in every religion. I can pray that one day, such as that in Ireland, that people in other parts of the world will get tired of violence and finally do the hard work it takes trying to forgive each other and come to peace. Of course it must be nice that I can talk of peace while I have a roof over my head, food in my stomach, a computer, etc.
If you think too hard about this stuff it turns your brain inside out..bleeck...
I think our problem here in the U.S. is exactly that, Elian.. We try very hard NOT to think too hard, which means we have a society of mush brains who always look for the easy way out, an example being finger pointing at politicians. The recent events with Anthony Weiner come to mind......
Actually had been a world traveler until the current employment strapped me down to where i live now. Trust me? You've alll hit it dead on in many of your observations about people being people no matter where they are.
Good civilized conversation by the way. wish we had more of that throughout the world.
Amen to that!
Was it well written?
I've read other books by the same author and I found them to be very lacking and even biphobic.