We are both sure this will generate lots of flaming. What is the difference and what does a cheat or liar have to offer? You can't take care of your own spouse so you look elsewhere. Now comes the excuses.
Printable View
We are both sure this will generate lots of flaming. What is the difference and what does a cheat or liar have to offer? You can't take care of your own spouse so you look elsewhere. Now comes the excuses.
hmm
This is interesting. You admit that you have set this up to attack in particular bisexuals who are not able to have an open relationship due to their partner not being willing or open to their bisexuality.
This is not a very positive nor supportive approach for bisexuals to discuss our issues in my opinion. You merely want to attack bisexuals who are not able to live up to your expectations and moral values.
Let me be the first to flame you. Bless your heart...and I write this with all the love that you deserve...Fuck off. :)
There is no difference. I will never cease to be amazed at some peoples capacity to rationalize their behavior.
To me, discrete is when you do not want the outside world to know and cheat is when you don't want your s/o to know.
The former is not bad, but the latter is bad. There are plenty of Bi couples, straight couples and mixed orientation couples out there that are discrete, but it does not mean that there is cheating going on. In our case, we both try to meet any of the guys that we are interested in, together. It does not always work out that way (when the wife is tired or ill), so the wife sends me off to do the meet and I return and report to her what my feelings are about the guy.
That is not cheating, but it is discrete.
Like I said, if the s/o does not know and is kept in the dark about anything even happening (like lying about it), then that is definitely cheating.
I say exactly what he says.
I suppose many would think it is cheating but how about this:Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
Let's say you're older and you and the wife haven't had sex for 6 or 7 years. There's no real desire for it by either of you. The wife has a chronic disease that has taken away her sex drive. You've become more interested in just men, sexually, as you've gotten older so you end up looking for guys to fool around with and succeed now and then.
You're not looking to move out or leave the wife and you're not dumping your wife emotionally. You just enjoy sex activity with a man on occasion.
Is that cheating? I suppose by many folks' definition it is, but I just don't see anything wrong with it. No harm. No foul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtyg
Yes, it is cheating if she is not aware and approving of it. To not be cheating, the s/o must know and approve.
When you marry someone, you have taken vows to each other and those vows can only be changed if both of you agree to do so.
No one can unilaterally change one side of an agreement, so any changes must be agreed upon by both partners.
Anything else is selfish and disrespectful.
And remember that if you do it to your partner, then they can (and will) do it to you.
To cheat is to inflict emotional harm by not being truthful to your partner. To be discreet one has to be aware of the emotions of all involved. When my husband and I find someone who is right for our relationship we will be discreet due to my job. If one of us goes out every night and is having sex with whom ever we can find, that is a cheat. A cheat does not care about others feelings, someone who is discreet does.
I should clarify my comment. If you say you need to be discreet about what you're doing because you don't want your significant other to find out then it is the same as cheating. If you are discreet to protect your privacy from the rest of the world then that is totally justifiable . How you live your life is no one's business but yours and your significant other, if you have one.
All very good points. But let's take it ove step further. What if one partner looses all interest in sex, yet will not grant their partner permission to find it elsewhere because of a vow made 20-30-40 years ago. Is that partner supposed to only masturbate for the rest of their life? Is that acceptable and/or fair to the active partner?Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtyg
There IS no difference. Cheating is cheating. Its selfish, thinking only of ones self, and hurtful. Cheating is lying, and how can Anyone ever trust someone if he/she cant even be trusted by their own spouses to be true and truthful. People can justify it all they like by saying "Oh my wife/husband doesnt want sex anymore, and I have needs." :rolleyes:
If you cant trust them on one subject, how can you trust that they are playing safe and clean behind their spouses' back? You cant trust a cheater and you Damn sure cant trust a liar.
My :2cents:, deal with it.
Cat
Good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Let's address that in a logical and reasonable manner, then. Shall we?
Either you have to be honest with your spouse and communicate or leave the relationship.
Trying to justify cheating is a pretty lame thing to do to someone who is not cheating on you.
And, in a case of cheating on someone because they are cheating, or one thinks that they are cheating on one, does not make it better. It loses the moral high ground.
If you one thinks that one has to cheat, because of an inability to be honest with their s/o then the problem is not the relationship. It is the person who feels the need to cheat.
Be honest with the s/o and and if one cannot work it out, then one needs to not be with that s/o. In the long term, it is the best way to go.
Where is the word "bisexual" in the post??Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Anyway, talking about flogging a dead horse.:eek:
What is really wrong are all the men on this site who suck dick and all the women who eat pussy. Now that is just wrong...lol It much worse than a hetero man cheating with a woman. It is cheating on god and what he put you here on this earth to do. Make babies and only have sex when you are working on having a baby. (written in white and black moral speak ;)
Um, what? They didn't say anything about it being 'bi-specific'. A spouse or partner not wanting to be in a non-monogamous relationship has nothing to do with not accepting bisexuality and everything to do with not willing to have their partner sleep with other people. Being bi doesn't give you the right to a non-monogamous relationship. Was the OP edited? Sorry if this was sarcasm and I missed it but I don't think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
I'd say that being discrete means that you don't advertise or talk about your sexuality in open company. Someone discrete may or may not lie if asked directly. I think it involves not telling certain people in your life for one reason or another. A discrete person (as opposed to closeted) could be someone who is comfortable with their sexuality, but not with their personal affairs being widely known. Just my :2cents:Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
Cheating is doing something sexual without a partner's knowledge or consent. It involves lying, either by saying things that aren't true or not telling them what you're up to.
I agree with the posters that mention the difference between someone keeping their personal business discreet vs. married person cheating on their mate/spouse/lover/whatever....
One can be discreet and not be a cheater
One can be discreet and certainly be a cheating on someone.
and, I guess
One can cheat on their mate and NOT discreet about it.
On a side note, I just glad that at least the initial poster, Jackal, spelled the word discreet correctly. The rest, well, its certainly a mixed bag :eek:
For all those that would like to be discrete, unless you're planning on becoming a number anytime soon... or something consisting of separate parts, you really can't be DISCRETE!
Hmmm.. I wonder if a number could be discreetly discrete?
dis·creet (dĭ-skrēt')
adj.
Marked by, exercising, or showing prudence and wise self-restraint in speech and behavior; circumspect.
Free from ostentation or pretension; modest.
dis·crete (dĭ-skrēt')
adj.
Constituting a separate thing. See synonyms at distinct.
Consisting of unconnected distinct parts.
Mathematics. Defined for a finite or countable set of values; not continuous.
Just adding my 2 cents worth....
(No, I'm not in a relationship, so don't think I'm trying to justify actions that I feel guilty about...)
I've read a few times in this thread the words "causing emotional distress on the partner" (or words to that effect - feel free to use your own synonyms). People say that messing around with other people behind your s/o's back = cheating, and will lead to emotional harm to your s/o.
People are saying that you should be honest and open about things with your s/o, but some people do not have that option - they know their s/o will not accept it.
So, the question I'm throwing out there is, does it cause more emotional trauma on the s/o if they break up completely? Is it not, then, better for both partners' emotional well-being if one of them is enjoying some discreet fun on the side?
Some people's partners will not accept any bisexual leanings of anyone. Yet, you cannot just say "well, they were not a good match in the first place". You love who you love. Even if he/she is closed-minded about some things...
:2cents:
I agree with you love who you love. But if you love someone who doesn't want to share you then you need to decide if you love them enough to respect them and stay faithful. It would be the same if two men were married and one said I want to go sleep with a woman. Do you not think the male partner would feel that he wasn't good enough? That he wasn't enough? It's time to realize you can be bisexual and not act on feelings, it's not all about sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobUK
Cheating is a package of many things, not just sexual. If my partner cheat with money, she is cheating me, and can not claim the high moral ground.If I drink too much and rub her of a stable life, I'm cheating her and can't claim the high moral ground. So to the people here who take the high moral ground, make sure you have a clean record.
I can't claim the high moral ground, can you???:eek:
Sorry, but did you say logical? Wouldn't that include gray areas as well? Not everything is so black and white. There are many different types of relationships.
So are you saying that, if a mutual understanding cannot be worked out, it would be best to leave your elderly, frigid spouse alone and lonely, and quite possibly economically destitute cause she doesn't want to have sex anymore? Never mind that both still have affection for one another and enjoy eachother's company, no sex at all is grounds for separation?
Remember people, EVERYTHING is justifiable, even murder. Look it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
Our sexuality and activities are no one's business outside of those within the circle of people that we wish to allow that intimate knowledge to be known.
That is being discrete.
My wife knows about my sexuality and we have a plan all worked out about it. Now if something changes between us as far as sexual desires, then we can sit down and discuss the issue and work something out. This prevents cheating.
I have always insisted when looking for a guy that they are discrete because I do not want the world I do business in to know that I am bisexual. I would describe this as discrete but I am not willing to be a cheat or be with anyone who is. I always insist when I look for any person of either gender that the person has no body else they are married to, living with or seeing in any way on any level. I will mention that this belief has often kept me alone for longer than I wanted to be but so be it.
For me, being discreet meant I operated withing the rules my husband and I had set when I revealed my bi-sexuality.
After a lot of negotiation, compromise and heart-searching, it operated along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell."
Cheating was when (I admit I did) operate outside the rules. He had no idea, but I had to shoulder the guilt.
Cheating is cheating - its not nice: its an emotional cancer in the long run.
There is always one that thinks the rules of common decency and respect do not apply to them, because it interferes with their selfish desires. My son's mother is one of them; Lie, cheat, steal; do whatever it takes to get what you want. Eventually, it comes back to bite you in the ass. Like she eventually found out.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Yes, there are different types of relationships, but this is not the movies or TV dramas. This is the real world, in which there are no scriptwriters that suddenly make everything okay.
Simple rule; if your s/o does not know of and approve/give the go ahead, then it is cheating.
It is that black and white. There is no gray area in that. And no excuse for cheating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Well, if the relationship is not working and the love is gone (indicated by the intent to cheat), then the only realistic option is to go your separate ways.
I never said that there were no repercussions, but if you have to be the "bad guy", by leaving the relationship, to find your happiness, at least you are not the "dirt-bag" cheater who screwed around on his spouse.
Maybe in your dictionary, but not amongst society, as a whole. There are a lot of murderers on death row that would argue your point as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
And before you use war as a justification, think again, since that is a whole different thing from cheating on your spouse.
I agree that the 'discrete' definition given by many on here is the ideal.
But when a person's ad says they need to be discrete, that's code for "I don't want my wife to find out.' We all know that's what is meant.
Cheat. Discrete. Name games don't change the issues.
Pasa
Who said the love was gone? There are many aspects to a relationship, sex being just one. Should 100% of all relationships be based on sex alone and not include friendship or affection? And that sex should just be with the one you love? If so, they why do YOU have sex with others (consentual or not)? As you state, you and your spouse do have sex with others. Why? Are you two in a loving, comitted relationship with everyone you two sleep with? Many people feel that even consent from your spouse does not give you the right to sleep around. Your open lifestyle can easily be judged by others too, and actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
And for the record:
justifiable homicide n. a killing without evil or criminal intent, for which there can be no blame, such as self-defense to protect oneself or to protect another, or the shooting by a law enforcement officer in fulfilling his/her duties. This is not to be confused with a crime of passion or claim of diminished capacity which refer to defenses aimed at reducing the penalty or degree of crime. (See: homicide, self-defense)
There's my dictionary. Pretty standard. LOys of people who have killed are walking around free too. Justifiable homicide.
Ahh, here we go. First of all, supporting the dishonest act of cheating automatically lost you the high ground in this argument. A relationship that is not honest is not a relationship, so by saying that you feel the need to cheat says, quite factually, that you do not have a real relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
a relationship without honesty and integrity is no relationship at all. You argument FOR cheating is all backwards. Sex outside of the relationship is cheating as long as your partner knows nothing about it and it would cause them hurt, or anger towards you, if they found out about it.
What others are judging our relationship? You?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
You are not in a position to judge, since all of your words seem to say that you do not have an open and honest relationship with your s/o and hide your actions from them for fear of repercussion from them.
Okay, the "justifiable homicide" argument. Since we are not talking the law, your argument is way out of context. And just to address that, argument, in case you want to drag that out, people who have committed "justifiable homicide" have to live with that stain on their heart, mind and soul for the rest of their lives. Unless one has no conscience whatsoever, that has it's own punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Your argument has no real bearing in this context. Epic fail, but nice try, anyway.
Your notion of discretion certainly sounds right, but your definition of cheating sounds suspiciously like it implies "it's not cheating if you don't get caught".Quote:
Originally Posted by katz368923
If you sneak extra aces into your hand (to better your hand) while playing poker, it is cheating, regardless of whether emotional harm is inflicted and regardless of whether you get caught. In fact, some would say that not getting caught is simply "cheating well" as opposed to "cheating poorly". Any cheater who actually gives a rat's ass about getting caught is discreet!
Cheating is simply trying to get away with breaking the rules. As Mikey points out, there are times when that is more or less justified, but it's still cheating, and could almost always be handled differently.
And NEPHX...bless you for pointing out the difference between discretion and discreteness.
LOL!! Dude, you didn't answer any of my points at all, you just deflected and declared an epic fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
Where did I say I support the act of cheating? Again you twist the words to your liking. I support a person's right to do what they feel is necessary, given their circumstance, THEIR CHOICE, get it? I have no arguement for cheating. I agrue for freedom of choice.
And no, I'm not judging your relationship, as I'm in a very similar situation. Been with my wife for 23 years now and with my male half for just over a year now. I've mentioned it all over the place here. The point is that WE as people in open relationships are judged by main stream society every day, like it or not. But you are right on one point, I'm not in a position to judge others, so I don't. You, on the other hand, do at every chance you get. See the difference?
So you don't like my definition of justifiable because we aren't talking about murder? Not talking about the law you say? Well what is the #1 reason people get divorced (another legal action)? Infidelity (or, if you like, cheating). And a legal defence (justification) to infidelity is frigidity.
When one person in a marriage rejects all sexual advances from their spouse for an extended period of time, or is declared frigid (yes, a medical term) by a medical professional, then that person has no right to petition for divorce on the grounds on infidelity if they catch their spouse cheating. The act of marriage is contract between the two implying a sexual relationship, and if one breaks that contract the agreement is considered voidable (divorce or annulment). That, my good friend ,is called justification. Very appropriate in this context.
So my position isn't a fail. Cheating is happening all over the place, even on this site. Just peruse the public profiles and see all the requests for "discretion". You and I are in the minority. We are lucky and should be very thankful. I am, and want to help others find their way and hopefully come out to their spouses honestly, but within their own time frame. I don't cast stones at them for not being just like me.
I have to agree with Tenni.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
It's not nice to go and poke sticks in a hornets nest just for shits and giggles.
I hope you get stung.
I have always believed that the marriage vows refer to for better or for worse, in sickness and in health......
now maybe I am a lil confused here, but as I have said in other threads, it appears that the * for worse* part doesn't cover monogamy or lack of sex in the relationship
it does appear to me that marriage is now a case of I love my partner but I have rights that supersede any obligations to my partner where sex is concerned.....
now I am aware that there are people that feel the need to be discreet, by reason of risk of loss of housing, employment etc.... things that are valid concerns, and inside that aspect may be concern that telling their partner may result in the person being *outted * anyway..
cheaters I view as people that are sexually motivated, they will justify their actions by any means possible and at the end of the day, they do not care about others opinions, only that their sexual desires are furfilled....
there is a minority group of cheaters that are not solely sexually motivated, they have ended up in a situation that was not sexually motivated but has become that anyway.......
personally myself, cheating is something that I could not do, its not in my nature, yet I respect the fact that others with their different views of cheating, may regard things like writing erotic stories for others pleasure, to be a form of verbal / written cheating and betrayal.....
there is also the aspect that some people are simply not suited to one on one monogamous relationships / marriage, yet marry anyway..... they often become the people with 3-4 divorces or people that are more prone to cheat in a marriage, not for the sake of sex, but as a way of coping in a marriage that can feel like a prison of sorts
The verbal gymnastics in this thread are quite amusing.
Being out of the closet I take a rather stern view of cheating. I had to face myself and be honest with me long before I was able to disclose to my wonderful spouse. I have a great marriage now, one that far supercedes my prior fake heterosexual one. I have found that honesty made my marriage much stronger.
When a spouse holds out or loses interest, there is still a rule of fidelity. Taking the good with the bad. Can't put that out of context. Sex is not a given, its a privilege. There should be reasonable expectations and if the spouse cannot meet them, then a voidance of the marriage is in order and you can go about your merry way fucking whomever and whenever you want. Unless that spouse consents to that behavior, which does affect her or him, then sorry, there is no hall pass for cheating in a marriage unless the spouse explicitly consents to said behavior.
That said, even my own open marriage situation comes with rules and regulations. No Craigslist hookups, no quickies in bookstores, no random this or that....that's what we agreed to and what I must abide by.
bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconAngel
It must be wonderful to live in a world where everything is either black or white. I've never encountered so much sanctimonious moralizing outside of a Jerry Falwell broadcast.
I know, right? How dare anyone call a spade a spade.
Pasa
I did, but you choose to not pay attention and call it "not answering your points"Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
There is NO EXCUSE FOR CHEATING. What part of that are you incapable of understanding?
In every post that you try to "justify" cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
I have seen your posts on this subject in other threads. NOT EVEN ONCE have you ever suggested remaining faithful or being honest with people's spouses.
One has to wonder where your moral compass is pointing; particularly since you are listed in your profile as married.
Does your wife know that you imply to others that cheating is a better option than honesty?
How does she feel about that stance?
Necessary? The only thing that sex is "necessary" for is procreation. Sex is fun and a healthy activity, but it is not necessary for feeling good about one's self. It helps but is not necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Aaaah, the "freedom of choice" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
What about the promises made to your spouse when you married her? You took those vows together.
Did you not understand them? You CHOSE to take those vows, as did every other married person here, and all of the implications therein.
You, for all intents and purposes, "signed a document", before whatever deity that you believe in, that you would abide by those vows. SO when you violate those vows, what does that make you?
Did you not know that your word should be enough in a relationship and you actions should comply with that word?
Are you even remotely aware of the damage that is done when cheating enters the picture?
If you are aware, then, in order to support your "freedom to choose to cheat" agenda, why do you not explain the pitfalls of cheating?
Do you think that cheaters don't get caught? Well, they do get caught; all of the time. And it often does irreparable damage to a relationship.
Your "freedom of choice" did not, apparently take that into consideration, now. Did it?
You "freedom of choice" COMPLETELY IGNORES THE REPERCUSSIONS OF YOUR ACTIONS.
Your post on another, new, thread clearly shows that you do not consider the ramifications of cheating, or did you expect the rest of us to come to your intellectual rescue when you failed to mention those ramifications?
Freedom of choice has the moral mandate to be as informed as possible of all of the options: The good and the bad of whatever one is making a choice on.
Had you posted the bad along with the rest of your drivel, you would have been informing others of the truth of that choice.
You chose to not do that, presuming that the other person would already know that. You forget that people, being people, do not always think about the bad that can happen.
If you truly did not support cheating, in and of itself, then you would have taken the step necessary to remind people of the ramifications, both long and short term, of those actions.
As my ex found out, the lies fall apart on you pretty quickly and that breeds suspicion, which destroys a marriage.
Actually, your implication was that you did. Neither of us cheat. We have a very clear set of rules in that aspect and neither of us needs to lie about what we do. My wife knew that I was Bi long before we got married (11years together, 9 years married and still going strong) and we worked things out long before we said our vows.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Now the big question:
Does your wife know about your male lover?
If she does, then does she know that he's your lover or does she think that you are actually straight and he's just a "drinking buddy" or some other such thing?
If she does not, then it will without question, be that un-disarmable bomb that blows up in your face. Maybe not today; maybe not this week, but it will blow up on you and you will be an even worse bad guy for the deception.
Now you are switching to the mainstream society argument. That has to do with being discrete and does nothing to address the cheating issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
We have already addressed "discretion". so this is just an attempt to sidetrack the argument away from your support of the cheating issue.
I know what right and wrong are. Not so sure about you, though, at this point.
Do we both agree that Lying to your spouse about your relationship (in and outside of marriage) and anything that can directly affect it is wrong (not including surprise gifts and good things)?
Do we both agree that cheating is wrong?
Do we both agree that to cheat we have to eventually lie to continue doing so?
If the answers to those questions are all yes, then we are on the same page. But I do not believe that you can support your argument for the "choice" to break your marriage vows and cheat, unless you answer "no" to those questions.
You will, likely not answer them at all, "choosing" to ignore them, instead.
Cheating (legal term is infidelity), usually, at least here in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Which statute would that be in?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
And, since you are in Canada (according to your profile) I cannot comment on Canadian law without seeing the statute, but here in the US, cheating for any "reason" is justifiable grounds for divorce and in many states, the cheater gets slammed hard by the courts.
Frigidity is also weak, but justifiable, grounds for a divorce (don't recall the legal term, off hand right now) in which things come out a bit more evenly.
Again, Canadian law, not US law. If you are going to discuss how the law pertains to this issue, then compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Canadian divorce law does not apply outside of Canada, so legally, that argument is a moot point, as it may not be applied to anyone outside of Canada.
But if you insist on going there, then I am willing to do so.
But more importantly, if, as you say, frigidity is grounds for divorce in Canada, then why not just do that?
It has to be a lot easier then getting had for cheating which, by your own words, is also grounds for divorce. And divorce on the grounds of a lack of sexual interest by your partner has to be less messy than getting caught cheating.
[/QUOTE]if they catch their spouse cheating. The act of marriage is contract between the two implying a sexual relationship, and if one breaks that contract the agreement is considered voidable (divorce or annulment). That, my good friend ,is called justification. Very appropriate in this context.[/QUOTE]
Again, only in Canada. Cheating is considered grounds for a divorce in the US, but Frigidity is not; HOWEVER, if a spouse refuses to have consensual sex with their partner that CAN be grounds for an annulment, if there were no children produced in the marriage. Even in the US.
It still does not justify cheating; Annulment or divorce, yes, but not cheating.
And that makes it right?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
To quote my parents: "if all of your friends decided to jump into Lake Michigan in the middle of winter, does that mean that you have to?
You are right though. The other post wasn't an epic fail.......THAT ARGUMENT was the real epic fail.
The very immature "but everyone else is doing it" argument.
I know, from more than a few threads like this, that I am not in the minority. I think about how my advice affects those that I give it to. So I always discourage cheating because ending a disfunctional relationship is better than staying in it and getting caught in the lies of cheating. I recommend other, less risky options than cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Starting with honesty. If you cannot be honest with your spouse, then who can you be honest with?
[/QUOTE]We are lucky and should be very thankful. I am, and want to help others find their way and hopefully come out to their spouses honestly, but within their own time frame. I don't cast stones at them for not being just like me.[/QUOTE]
I am very thankful, but instead of recommending the riskiest choice, I suggest other options that can either save the marriage or end it with the least long term pain possible.
You do not even suggest that as an option.
Maybe you have never been cheated on, but many people, myself included, have. And yes, that has changed our views of this issue. We have been through it and DO NOT recommend it to anyone. It destroys trust, not just between the partners involved, but future involvements as well
Many of us have been in that "battlefield" and do not want others to go there, while you have sat back and encouraged others to do so, telling them why they should without even one single reason why they should not.
That is not giving them a choice.....it is giving them an uninformed choice and is not very honest.
Falcon, the length and passion of your post impressed me. Obviously I've hit a very tender nerve for you, so I'm sorry that you were obviously so hurt in the past. Now I understand your position totally.
Let me clarify one thing though. I am out to my wife, she actually picked my b/f for me, met him and talks with him all the time. They have a great respect for each other. I thought you would have picked up on that when I mentioned open relationships, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. My bad.
So now back to you, cause really, it's all about you, isn't it. Sure, no sex necessary except for procreation. There are absolutely no other health benefits, either physical, mental or emotional. None at all. ( http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationshi...enefits-of-sex ) . My mistake. But actually don't need to have sex to procreate anymore either ( http://www.emedicinehealth.com/in_vi...article_em.htm) so really there is no biological need for sex at all right? Right. Again, my bad. Good thing you don't have to look outside your marriage for sex, eh?
And there absolutely is no excuse for having extramarital sex without your spouses prior consent, ever. Doesn't matter if your spouse denies you sex and you still want it, or even if they become medically incapable of having sex, best to divorce them and move on (http://www.dadsnow.org/studies/heritage1.htm). Who cares if you still love them. It's so wrong. Divorce them. Isn't that what you believe? "...For however long it lasts", right? The sexually active person does not have any rights as a human being anymore. I have to suggest that idea to my 42 y/o friend whose wife suffered a massive stroke several years ago and can't even feed herself, let alone give consent to play. Yes, leave her.
I didn't have to suggest any negative aspects of infidelity, since he's an adult, I assume he is well aware of them. Besides I knew you would write volumes on it, and I was right.
So, in conclusion, I give in. You are right, right, right. Because of your past experience,your morals fit everyone else and no one has the right to think for themselves, to choose their own situation cause you were once cheated on and know better than every one else. You are judge and jury for every person on the planet. So sorry. I was wrong, wrong wrong. Judge all you want. You are always right.
End of very tiring and annoying discussion.
And for the record, I have received several PMs from others sighting your sanctimonious attitude, and I must agree, it is so fucking annoying, so dude claim your victory.
Well, I am not the only one to go through it and that should take precedence when recommending things like that. Look at it from the other side and ask yourself if you would want to be the victim of that kind of deception. Those are repercussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
And that is good. What I find confusing is why you would suggest what you have when that is not the relationship that you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
But an open relationship has no secrets. They are honest about the things going on with both of them. That is not cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
No, but it is all about having an honest relationship. Something that I am very passionate about.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Health benefits is a straw man argument. I have never argued against ththe health benefits of sex. But you said "necessary", which does not apply to what you are saying about the health benefits or about the "necessity" to cheat. the health benefits, while good are still not a necessity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
There is a difference between necessity and just being a good alternative for additional health benefits. Perhaps some study into the difference is in order for you.
And, actually, it's a good thing that you don't know how to make a point that can stick. This would be a lot tougher to do if you were a decent debator.
And cheating on them is less selfish, how, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
But you have underestimated the power of human stupidity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Most people, when it comes to reasons that they want something (if they want it badly enough), take the real time and effort to consider what will happen as a repercussion of doing something when they feel that it does not affect others. People need reminding because of the simple fact that, even adults, need to be jogged into thinking before acting.
So you presume that everyone thinks about those repercussions of cheating when, in fact, most guys that cheat do not think about the repercussions of cheating.
And you should. You are not a good debator.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
Well, My morals fit in with honest people. I expect people to choose what is right and what will not do harm to their partners. If someone wants to cheat after learning ALL of the facts and pitfalls of cheating, then I have done what I can to inform them of the pitfalls and repercussions of their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
After all of that, if they choose to cheat, knowing all of that, the responsibility is theirs. I have done what I can to help prevent them from ruining 2 lives (maybe more, if they have kids to consider in the family).
Yes, I do judge people based on both their words and actions. Your words said one thing and you claim that your actions are different. But is it true or, like cheaters, are you lying about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
The words of an honest man match his actions and claims. You have too many inconsistencies in that area.
Of course it's tiring it is hard work to support an opinion that is both dishonest and known to be morally wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
And I know exactly which 3 or 4 people that they are. They are the same ones that have already done what you have just failed to do......defend an indefensible position. One in particular has been called out on his inconsistencies repeatedly by me and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
You should choose your friends a bit more wisely......just a suggestion, since most people are often judged by the company that they keep.
Falcon
Judge not least you be judged.
You seem to be a sad wounded soul who is very intolerantly judgmental of those that do not conform to your rigid beliefs and moral perspective. Your lack of tolerance and rationalizations puts you in the same extremist radical camp as those who would stone and kill you for your evil lifestyle if they could get away with it. Do not ever think that there are not other rigid moralists who condemn you as you condemn others. They have it all figured out too.
that rises a interesting point, mikey.... and thats a grey area in my eyes.... the person is not able to consent to sex or to extra marital playing.....Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey3000
so communication is not really a option there.....
its one of the very few areas that I do allow for a weakening of my opinions about cheating as its not a situation that can be dealt with on a equal terms level between two people and that is a key point of a lot of my stance on cheating.....
I endorse the right to make a informed choice by both partners, and in the case you share, thats not a option...... so in that case, I would put aside my judgment of cheaters and cheating, and say, may they both be at peace with whatever happens.... as its possible the wife may never know or if told, even understand that the husband has taken a lover for sexual, emotional etc support.....
yes, I concede that its a clear grey area....
btw, sorry for not PM'ing you about falcon..... I just hate PM'ing people...... besides, the * holy crusader * appears to be gaining his own anti fan club anyway :tong: