Gaza Aid Convoy

I've waited for someone to post something about Israel's raid on the aid convoy and so many deaths. It is sad that no one has felt fit to say a dickie bird. It is in all our interests to show concern and argue against oppression and discrimination from wherever it comes.. I make no comment at this stage about my view of the truth of the matter, except to say that so far the evidence as best I can see does not back Israel's claims. I am still absorbing what I can before doing so.. most of you will know where my sympathies lie but its no use shooting from the hip which I can and do do quite often..

Gaza, whatever the truth of the matter is an absolute mess and its getting worse by the day.. the fact that Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with the American President says a lot about his mindset and his determination to keep the pressure on Gaza.

mmm I read the part about how the convoy was told before they left on the voyage, NOT to try and break thru the blockade,..... instead the israels will transfer the aid supplies thru the blockade.....

it appears that somebody was hard of hearing cos what did they do ???? they tried to break thru the blockade.......

I remember hearing about collateral damage once or twice in this site...... so do we count activists on a aid convoy as collateral damage ???? or just idiots for not listening to israel in the first place and accepting the compromise of the aid transfer.......

it reminds me of the idiot pete bethune, the fool that decided to board a japanese whaling ship with a knife in international waters.....and now faces 15 years in a japanese prison...... yet the activists are saying he should be set free cos he did nothing wrong ... while he pleads quilty to 4 out of the 5 charges in a japanese court.....

while I support activists in their fight to have the right thing done.... I also state clearly, there is cosequences for actions that CAN be avoided if people used their brains......
once again we see activists thinking that they know better and now it cost lives.......

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

mmm I read the part about how the convoy was told before they left on the voyage, NOT to try and break thru the blockade,..... instead the israels will transfer the aid supplies thru the blockade.....

it appears that somebody was hard of hearing cos what did they do ???? they tried to break thru the blockade.......

I remember hearing about collateral damage once or twice in this site...... so do we count activists on a aid convoy as collateral damage ???? or just idiots for not listening to israel in the first place and accepting the compromise of the aid transfer.......

it reminds me of the idiot pete bethune, the fool that decided to board a japanese whaling ship with a knife in international waters.....and now faces 15 years in a japanese prison...... yet the activists are saying he should be set free cos he did nothing wrong ... while he pleads quilty to 4 out of the 5 charges in a japanese court.....

while I support activists in their fight to have the right thing done.... I also state clearly, there is cosequences for actions that CAN be avoided if people used their brains......
once again we see activists thinking that they know better and now it cost lives.......

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The convoy was at sea by that time Duckie.. it wasnt said before they left.. they were told to turn back.. trust is a great thing.. the trouble with Israel is they have long since lost the trust of just about everyone...

In all honesty, I have not yet had the heart to look into the story closely enough to have a real opinion. Living in Sinai and trying to promote friendly contact between Israelis and Arabs, I am always aggrieved when things like this happen, and it seems they happen all the time. No matter what the facts of this case are, it has fanned the flames of fear and anger here, and they don't down again quickly.

When you're a tiny country completely surrounded by enemies, I assume that makes you nervous and prone to taking harsh, severe actions. No one on earth is in a more precarious position.

I liken it to a person being the only one of his race in the middle of another race's highly agitated and dogmatic domain. I can't fathom the pressures they're under.

On the other hand, I can't fathom why they can't all come to some kind of agreement, where everyone can go on their way peacefully. To me, it would seem much more appealing for them to resolve their differences and become productive, peaceful neighbors.

I know there's many subtleties that I'll never grasp, but it seems to make much more sense to live in peace, than with such strife.

I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.

Thequiet about it may have something to do with the fact that the so-callde 'peace activists' were caught on video attacking an unarmed boarding party....caught red-handed.

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Originally Posted by jamieknyc

Thequiet about it may have something to do with the fact that the so-callde 'peace activists' were caught on video attacking an unarmed boarding party....caught red-handed.

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What media do you have Jamie? It is anything BUT quiet outside of the US.. or is the rest of the world wrong as usual? It is always interesting video evidence because how it is presented and edited has always to be considered.

..and Twyla.. I do not condone the carrying of weapons of any sort or any kind of violence.. but it was not Israel that lost 9 people and had guns.. some sort of Israeli action was expected and the statements of those on board do not tie up with what Israel tells us.. of course many in the US prefer Israel's version of events but there are always two side to every story..

Gaza is in a desperate plight and immensely short of many things including medical supplies.. had the convoy turned back and/or waited till Israel did whatever it was going to it is extremely questionable when any supplies did get to where they were most needed.. what we have to remember is that it is a war in all but name, but it can easily be argued were that not the case that Israel committed an act of war and they have most of the weapons.. Israel has committed many acts of war against Gaza, and if we take the raid as an act of war it certainly would not be the first..

The 'human aid' organization sponsoring that ship is a well known Islamist front organization. That was a boatload of Radical Islamist terrorists.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...hamas_e105.htm

Personally, I think you are dehumanizing Israel and forgetting that it's their families and their children who were hit with rocket attacks after the Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Israel gave that piece of land up in the name of peace and were drawn more deeply into war. Yet we can sit here safe and sound at home and never hear the whine of the rockets as they are fired toward our sleeping children. We can sit here safe and sound at home and denounce an entire nation for taking steps to ensure their children can sleep safely for another night. We can sit here being all high and mighty and waving the human rights banner but only if we do not forget there are humans on both sides of that conflict with rights that need preserving.

The offer was made to transport the aid that Israel would allow, it was denied. It was denied with the clear intentions of breaking the blockade for good. That is an act of war, and the soldiers went unprepared for the attacks that the activists launched. Soldiers when faced with people stabbing and cutting them are not gonna be nice and ask them to please put their weapon down. They are going to take them down, in doing so 9 people were killed. Would you have been happier if they had just sank the boat and let the 600 people drown? You say it all the time, Fran, collateral damage. When is it not okay? When it's the activists that are hurt by their own actions?

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Personally, I think you are dehumanizing Israel and forgetting that it's their families and their children who were hit with rocket attacks after the Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Israel gave that piece of land up in the name of peace and were drawn more deeply into war. Yet we can sit here safe and sound at home and never hear the whine of the rockets as they are fired toward our sleeping children. We can sit here safe and sound at home and denounce an entire nation for taking steps to ensure their children can sleep safely for another night. We can sit here being all high and mighty and waving the human rights banner but only if we do not forget there are humans on both sides of that conflict with rights that need preserving.

The offer was made to transport the aid that Israel would allow, it was denied. It was denied with the clear intentions of breaking the blockade for good. That is an act of war, and the soldiers went unprepared for the attacks that the activists launched. Soldiers when faced with people stabbing and cutting them are not gonna be nice and ask them to please put their weapon down. They are going to take them down, in doing so 9 people were killed. Would you have been happier if they had just sank the boat and let the 600 people drown? You say it all the time, Fran, collateral damage. When is it not okay? When it's the activists that are hurt by their own actions?

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I am not dehumanising Israel.. successsive Israeli governments have done that.. it is they who give the orders.. they who make the decisions.

Twyla..you think I don't feel for Israeli citizens? You could not be more wrong, but for all the deaths and tragedies of Israel, those of the surrounding arab lands are many, many times greater. If there is any blame on the Israeli people it is that they have singularly failed to keep their government in check and force them to be serious about peace. But that isnt surprising given in part the paranoia of encirclement and the government propaganda machine... I want Israel and all of its children and their parents to sleep soundly in peace and prosperity, as I do for human beings around the globe.. and that includes Palestinians .. they are able to sleep far less soundly than any Israeli, but with vastly greater poverty, deprivation and misery caused by Israeli actions..

Palestinians certainly bear their share of responsibilty as do all of the various quasi military, what many would call terrorist organisations as well as their so called governing authorities.. Palestinians have failed to keep those organisations in check, but are much less able to have any control over the policy and action of those groups than Israeli's are over their government. That they could and should so more is not an issue,, they should and they must.. yet for all that, since the bulk of responsibility is that of Israel for the misery brought upon not only Palestinians but their own people.. and the international community bears its share for not putting much more pressure on both sides to reach a deal...

The Gaza Strip and the city of Gaza itself, have never been a part of Israel Twyla.. it was an occupied territory after the 1967 war, having previously been a quasi independent Palestinian territory although occupied militarily by Egypt, arguably for its protection. It has never been Israel's to give away... but the fact is that Israel has visited disproportionately by many times great misery for any attacks on its soil. No, I do not applaud Palestinian attacks on Israel and condemn them without hesitation. As a pacifist that is alien to my nature and my beliefs. We have to remember the Palestinians are a dispossessed people and desperate and so I understand that some groups and many ppeople get so desperate as to feel it necessary to attack Israel.. desperation makes people do many desperate things.

To attack a fleet of supply ships bringing aid in international waters isn't an act of war? It seems only attacks on Israel are an act of war.. and running a blockade with much needed supplies to a people in misery and deprivation is to me no act of war but an act of mercy. I repeat.. how quickly would israel get those supplies into Gaza if the convoy did as Israel demanded? Weeks at least, probably months... and there is an old saying which is often used about the British warring on natives... "guns against spears". there was no contest then, and guns against knives in this case, if knives there were and I am not going to dispute it, is equally no contest.. in this day and age with modern automatic weapons it is much less of a contest..

I repeat this also.. it is interesting is it not that most of the rest of the world have condemned Israel for its actions.. while from America, Israel's closest ally says little and doing nothing, and its people seeming to take on board the Israeli position.. I continuously question my Government Twyla.. I am damn sure I am going to at least question someone elses..

To end.. I am not anti Israeli.. and I am not pro Palestinian.. I am however anti oppression from wherever it comes and against whomsoever it is inflicted.. I am pro peace and pro human being.

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.

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well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!

Wasn't the convoy in International Waters at the time of the boarding? Why didn't the Israelis wait until they convoy was in territorial waters before acting if they had legitimate concerns? As it was, it was an illegal act.

The surrounding islamic countries now have world opinion on their side 'on humanitarian grounds'.

Yesterday Turkey was reported to have said that it would be sending an escorting military vessel with the next convoy.

In terms of strategy the Israelis scored the perfect own goal.


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Originally Posted by 69luvr

well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!

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Wow.. sticks and fists against automatic weapons.. just who was boarding who's ship forcefully? Activists against commandos.. even Steven huh? As I understand it legally the crew of a ship are entitled to fight any act of piracy on the high seas.. and in international waters too.. and any act of war.. but of course we are talking Israel here.. thats all right then..
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... and actually Turkey remains an ally of the US.. until yesterday it was also the one good friend Israel had in the Muslim world..

I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

Yesterday Turkey was reported to have said that it would be sending an escorting military vessel with the next convoy.

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This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

Pasa

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Wow.. sticks and fists against automatic weapons.. just who was boarding who's ship forcefully? Activists against commandos.. even Steven huh? As I understand it legally the crew of a ship are entitled to fight any act of piracy on the high seas.. and in international waters too.. and any act of war.. but of course we are talking Israel here.. thats all right then..
.
... and actually Turkey remains an ally of the US.. until yesterday it was also the one good friend Israel had in the Muslim world..

I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..

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Fran....those commandos were all carrying non-lethal weapons, not auto rifles. Paintball guns (higher shooting velocity than a normal paintball, but this is very common now for this sort of action). That anyone died was a result of hand to hand combat, as it is being reported. Just to keep the facts straight.

Also, for fact checking, you are correct that Gaza was taken after the 1967 war. Sucks when you pick a fight and lose. Those are the gambles of war. They gambled that throwing in their lot with Jordan and Syria and the rest would pay off. They were wrong, they lost. Jordan and Syria were strong enough to be able to pull back, Palestine was not. Oh well.

Pasa

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Fran....those commandos were all carrying non-lethal weapons, not auto rifles. Paintball guns (higher shooting velocity than a normal paintball, but this is very common now for this sort of action). That anyone died was a result of hand to hand combat, as it is being reported. Just to keep the facts straight.

Also, for fact checking, you are correct that Gaza was taken after the 1967 war. Sucks when you pick a fight and lose. Those are the gambles of war. They gambled that throwing in their lot with Jordan and Syria and the rest would pay off. They were wrong, they lost. Jordan and Syria were strong enough to be able to pull back, Palestine was not. Oh well.

Pasa

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I accept and acknowledge my mistake Pasa.. but for all that there is no rant.. however much you may choose to see it that way.. and I accept the point about picking a fight and losing.. I know who began that war.. but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

Pasa

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Puts NATO on the spot rather, doesnt it? Nice little crisis.. the ally of one member attacking the ships of another.. you seem to forget that an attack against one member is an attack against all.. or is that only when the US is attacked?

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

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Yes it does alter it. When you acquire territory through war it becomes yours. That's sorta the point. It is even more the point when you were the one attacked. If Israel had been the aggressor, then I'd almost see it to say 'they should give that back.' But they weren't.

The Palestinians lost. When you lose a war you started, you lose all claim to any ground you couldn't hold.

Pasa

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..

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Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

''When you're a tiny country completely surrounded by enemies, I assume that makes you nervous and prone to taking harsh, severe actions. No one on earth is in a more precarious position.

I liken it to a person being the only one of his race in the middle of another race's highly agitated and dogmatic domain. I can't fathom the pressures they're under.

On the other hand, I can't fathom why they can't all come to some kind of agreement, where everyone can go on their way peacefully. To me, it would seem much more appealing for them to resolve their differences and become productive, peaceful neighbors.

I know there's many subtleties that I'll never grasp, but it seems to make much more sense to live in peace, than with such strife.''

Realist, the State of Israel would not be in a precarious position, if the State of Isarael did not exist. Remember, this was an artificially created state, after the ending of WWII. Nothing, not even the genocide of 6 million people, can justify this artificial creation, which caused many thousands of Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian, to live in refugee camps, for decades, whilst the State of Israel grew rich, importing more and more Jewish migrants, none native to the area and building on land once populated by other peoples.

I remember the war in 1967. I was 13. I saw film of those refugee camps and could not fathom out why these people had to live in such conditions, in a land which had been lived in, for centuries, by their people. It was then, that I began to wonder, just how the artificial creation of a state, could ever be justified.

The precarious position was caused deliberately. The State of Israel did not evolve naturally, over the centuries.

''I've read several stories on this particular action and I am wondering why peace activists were armed with knives. Sorry, Fran, I feel for everyone involved but they knew when they decided to try to break a blockade they as good as committed an act of war. They weren't on a humanitarian mission they were on a political mission. All the posturing in the world won't change that fact.''

Twyla, who or what gives the State of Israel the right to blockade another state. The State of Israel thinks it can do exactly what it wants and does, much like a few, much bigger states. To attack an Aid Convoy (armed or not), upon the High Seas, in international waters, is an act of war. Indeed, it is an act of blackhearted piracy.

And Twyla, Fran is correct, Gaza never belonged to Israel. In 20th century wars, conquered land, more often than not, is handed back, at the end of hostilities. Not by Israel, who still have possession of part of Jerusalem and in Jerusalem, Jewish settlers, have even built homes, thereby occupying, parts of the city which was not meant to be touched by them. Yet, the world mostly ignores this, especially the USA.

If the State one lives in, is so arrogant, as to still believe, even in a Political sense, that Jews have a God given right to land, then it must expect to be detested, by those, it's policies and actions tred upon.

''well stated and I think that TURKEY is no longer an ally of America and is spoiling for a war with ISRAEL. They knew that there was a blockade and decided to run it. They were armed and ready for action. Tell me which commando can slide down a rope with two hands and still start a fight? The video clearly shows the activists attacking the first commando with sticks and punching him. I t also shows a commando being thrown off the deck. How in anyones mind can the ISRAELI commandos be in the wrong? If any of you were savagely attacked would you throw paintballs at your attackers that had knives, and metal sticks?

IMO ISRAEL has a right to protect its citizens. I do not adhere to the phony nonsense that some of Israels enemies are screaming. They knew what they were doing when they tried to run the blockade.

Relative to the current administration's lack of knowledge and experience, weakness begets violence. Its inept soultion to everything is to look the other way and just talk to people trying to kill you. The world sees a hesitant administration and laughs at it! Just wait until IRAN gets the A-bomb. You ain't seen nothing yet!''

This is a typical response. One which might as well have come from the Government of the USA itself. Israel is an artificially created state. There is nothing special about Israel and it's inhabitants, most of whom are of European Jewish heritage.

And tell me this, if it is OK for the State of Israel to have nuclear weapons and it does, why is it not OK for other countries to have them. I guess that, in the eyes of the USA, will be totally different. Why is it OK for Mossad to hunt out people and kill them, in cold blood. Oh, that will be different too. It's time that the the artificially created, State of Israel, got down from it's pedestal and realised it is not the ''chosen nation.''

''I hate nuclear weapons and would have them scrapped.. but tell me.. is it only friends and proxies of the US who are allowed to have them? Are Islamic countries not allowed to defend themselves in just the same way as western ones? Lets take Russia and China out of the equation. After all one is white and Christian and much to powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully.. the other just much too powerful to take on and try to intimidate and bully..''

Oh, Fran.....you have to remember......Israel is the chosen nation, God's own, even though they are descended from the same people who wandered the region millennia ago. The chosen nation were the same people as the Cannanites.....DNA has shown that. The Jews that inhabit the Holy land these days, are descended from mainly European hybrid stock, for like most other wandering people, or those that were banished to other areas, they intermarried with the local stock.

''This would be a mistake. It would be a huge, huge, mistake.

Let Turkey send in a military vessel. The next boarding won't be with non-lethal weapons. And they won't even try to board a military vessel. They'll just sink it.

And the US will back their play.

I won't get into the whole Isreal/Palestinian issue except to say that the Palestinians could have ended this at anytime in the past 15 years. They choose not to. So be it. I truly feel bad that their children must suffer the consequences of those decisions.

Pasa''

And if the Israeli's did that, all hell would be let loose. Turkey, is a secular state, even though the population is predominantly Muslim. Turkey is also a European country and although not part of the EU, the rest of Europe and Europe is a big place, would not take too kindly, to an act of war being committed against one of it's own.

''Puts NATO on the spot rather, doesnt it? Nice little crisis.. the ally of one member attacking the ships of another.. you seem to forget that an attack against one member is an attack against all.. or is that only when the US is attacked?

And could the Palestinians have ended the dispute at any time? Far too easy and far too glib.. it is possible but not nearly as straightforward as you seem to believe... don't blame just the Palestinians for the mess.. as if Israel is whiter than white, which it patently is not..''

Well said, Fran.

''Yes it does alter it. When you acquire territory through war it becomes yours. That's sorta the point. It is even more the point when you were the one attacked. If Israel had been the aggressor, then I'd almost see it to say 'they should give that back.' But they weren't.

The Palestinians lost. When you lose a war you started, you lose all claim to any ground you couldn't hold.

Pasa''

Not true Pasa. Most conquered land is handed back these days. This is the
21st century, not the 18th. Israel doesn't need much of an excuse to go to war and is often the agressor.

The Palestinians didn't lose a war....they lost the ability to live freely in a land they had inhabited for generations. Immigrant Jews have no moral right to the land, now known as Israel.

Women and children and old people didn't ask to end up in refugee camps after 1948. The people of what used to get called Palestine, didn't have armies, in fact in the years leading up to the State of Israel being created...by the west......the terrorists, were the Jews in Palestine....who were wanting their own state.

I am not anti-semitic, but I am against the cause of Zion and have no time for the State of Israel, which is known for coming down hard on dissidents. Look up the story of Mordechai Vanunu, a Christian convert, who spilled the beans about the Israeli nuclear facilities.

This state was artificially created. It did not evolve. It is arrogant. It allows it's Jewish citizens to build on Arab land, it bulds a wall across it's country, that reminds people of another wall built along time ago, in Berlin. It has nuclear weapons and in some areas the precious and supposedly sacred, River Jordan, has been reduced to little more than a sewer.

What's so special about Israel, that the USA must support it, no matter what? Could it be anything to do with money and finance and all the big banks and the amount of money the rich, Jewish US financial ''aristocracy,'' is in possession of and their strong influence in the realms of power and rule?

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

I've waited for someone to post something about Israel's raid on the aid convoy and so many deaths. It is sad that no one has felt fit to say a dickie bird. It is in all our interests to show concern and argue against oppression and discrimination from wherever it comes.. I make no comment at this stage about my view of the truth of the matter, except to say that so far the evidence as best I can see does not back Israel's claims. I am still absorbing what I can before doing so.. most of you will know where my sympathies lie but its no use shooting from the hip which I can and do do quite often..

Gaza, whatever the truth of the matter is an absolute mess and its getting worse by the day.. the fact that Netanyahu cancelled a meeting with the American President says a lot about his mindset and his determination to keep the pressure on Gaza.

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You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

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It was Jesus, who is reported as saying, to turn the other cheek. In the Gospels of the New Testament, it was the Jewish hirearchy, ruled by a puppet King Herod (who was not a Jew), who rejected the words of Jesus and with the help of the Romans, put him to death.

Therefore there is no reason, religious or otherwise, why the State of Israel, should be expected to ''turn the other cheek.''

''They just want to exist, peacefully.''

I think that this point could be argued.

''The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.''

The majority of Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, will want no more than most other people in the world. Peace, happiness and long lives, in decent conditions.

There is no Holy Land, not for any particular faction. The land is holy to Christian, Muslim and Jew. The land is just that.....land. There is no chosen nation. We are not living two to three thousand years ago. The creation of the State of Israel was artificial and sent thousands into refugee camps. How can that be justified? It cannot.

And the ability and oh, so western ability, of being abled to wipe out the Palestinians, living on a small strip of land and dispossessed from ancestral homeland......Yep...that would be par for the course for the State of Israel.

If there was a God, he'd be cursing the day he told a bunch of nomadic people, that they were special. All the native people of that land, are special. Israel does not have any crown to wear, to place it above everyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celticmagic

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

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Please don't insult the many members of the forces, who fought in WWII. The rest of the world was already at war and fighting hard. The USA did not enter the war until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The war had been going on since 1939.

The other allies will always be eternally grateful to the USA for finally entering the war to end tyranny, but we would have appreciated it, a hell of a lot more, if you had been with us from the beginning, even if the USA was helping, in other ways, behind the scenes.

If the USA had not entered the war, if would have lasted a lot longer, but we would have won and we would not have been speaking German, or polishing the boots of the Germans.

Your glib and insulting remark is about as silly as bringing up the war, which led to the independence of the 13 colonies. It means nothing.

Your country really does have a very dangerous crush on the state of Israel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celticmagic

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

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And there was I thinking that it was only the bad countries that rewrote history to suit.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by celticmagic

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

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Sometimes, I am convinced that there has to be strange brainwashing chemical ingredients placed in the drinking water of the USA. Then I realize that brainwashing some US people is easy to do and you don't need to drug them.

If I was the Isreal Prime Minister I would not want to meet with an unfriendly US president either. He treats the people that want to do us harm more warmly than our allies.

This is a very complex issue(s).

Does Israel have the right to protect itself from rockets fired into its territory?
Yes

Does Israel have the right to create a blockade on the sea near Gaza?
I don't know. It might be better if the UN approved of such an action to support Israel. I don't think that this has happened as it did with Iraq during the Gulf War.

Does Israel have the right to board a ship in international waters and kill people on these ships?

I do not support this. I await to read reports on exactly what happened. We may or may not get at the truth as to the events though.

I wish Canada's government did not so overtly support Israel. I would rather that we take a more neutral position. The Israel PM was in Canada "making nice" when these killing events happened.

Sheesh, why is it no one can post a thing without being told they were wrong. I did not say that Israel owned the Gaza Strip, I stated they gave it up for peace and were drawn deeper into a war.

Now, again all the posturing in the world will not make anyone think anything different about a political action by a group of activists. I stand by what I said, remember there are humans on both sides with rights to defend.

And Celticmagic........please do not insult people on this board with those kind of remarks. There is not a nation in this world that is above or below any other nation.

Unless your Israel, then it appears the world can kick you and expect you to smile politely while you ask for another.

OK...people to ignore in this thread:

Canticle
Tenni

Tenni for being one post in and already turning it into a USA bashing. Canticle for showing that she has no understanding beyond what her tele tells her and it would take longer than I have to offer to teach her the actual history. We'll just leave it at: There was no Palestine before England created it as a trade area. But there was most certainly an Israel before all of the nations in question.

Question of the Day for everyone: If Israel offered to have a two state peace offering, complete with rebuilding Gaza, and surrendering the West Bank, and offered to build roads and hospitals as well, and said "we want to live in peace."...why didn't the Palestinians take the deal?

When you answer that question, and the answer is dark and ugly and Pro-Palestinians won't want to actually answer it, you will understand why there is unrest in the middle east. When you further understand that Iran, and Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest don't give a rats ass about Palestine except that they can be used as a pawn, the situation becomes even more clear.

Pasa