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You are right.. it's not pointless.. though at times frustrating.. and the frustration come feeling that democracy and human rights only a few people really believe in. Many pay lip service to it, but do not really value it.
The right to peaceful assembly, demonstrating, protesting, are all things that it seems lately have been equated with hooligan-ism or some negative connotation.
Anyway, I will continue to comment. Just need my occasional time-outs :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
''ok.... to address your multi point wall of text .....''
MY wall of text!! Oh, do come on, LDD. I have read enough of the threads upon this forum, to understand that your own posts, can be some of the longest and in my book, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I express myself, my way. I don't go in for one sentence comments...very often, I do try NOT to insult anyone, for I am not a rude person, in my everyday life and I don't churn out any home spun wisdom. I just say what is in my head, heart and soul. I defend and I protect. I'd fight for rights, if the need was there and I wouldn't, necessarily, need to agree with those fighting for any particular human right, etc. That's me, honest as the day is long and no liar, or user of people. I'm not going to stop being me, or post in any other way and long may it remain so.
''bully to me for having experience.....and knowledge of military actions...
that is why I am talking about the israeli boarding of the ship and the way it was conducted.... its something I happen to know about and understand a lot about......''
I am sure, that in some thread, somewhere, sometime, I read that you were Scottish. If so, I am assuming you were born in the British Isles and were, maybe still are, a British citizen. If that is the case, then you should understand what is meant, when someone says ''bully for you.''
Perhaps, I had grown a little tired, last night and threw out a phrase, which expressed my exasperation. Believe it, or not, I do not like to repeat the same points, over and over again.
However, as I have found, when dealing with the emails from someone, who only ever read, what that person wanted to read, in a received email, that there comes a time, when repetition, repetition, repetition, is required.
Sometimes taking the prose apart, paragraph, by paragraph, sentence by sentence and even word by word. Not an enjoyable task, but sometimes, unfortunately, a very necessary one.
I have concluded, from reading your posts, that you do, indeed, know quite a lot, about very many things! However, any knowledge, does not automatically, make one right.
''nobody needs to be a trained expert in armaments to create explosives.... the average school kid is taught the basic knowledge in science class.... or do you not realise that making hokey pokey is a form of explosive class reaction of chemicals ?????''
Did anyone say that one has to be an expert? I can't recall posting, that I did. You're preaching to the converted, here. I know that no expert training is required.
''cement is not the only type of building supply that can be sent.... plastercrete is a non explosive base chemical that can be used instead and does the same bloody job.....''
So, you are saying that because cement, could be used in the making of explosives, only non explosive substances should be allowed into Gaza?
If that is so, then surely, Israel should also, be stripped bare of any cement supplies and be told to use other substances. Why the heck should the Palestinians, not be allowed, as a human right, the same materials their semitic cousins, use?????
Works both ways. The people should have the same rights as Israelis, in every sense of the word.
''the VC were not highly trained, christ the vets that were there, can tell you that, I lived with a ex nam vet that drilled me in the ways of the vc and how basic knowledge can make anybody highly proficient in ways of combat and survival
the tunnelers in colditz were not highly trained cavers, they merely understood to make a tunnel you dig and board up the tunnels.... the vc are no different.....
and nor is the gaza strip.... hence the 300 odd tunnels that have been dug under the gaza strip''
If the VietCong were not highly trained and well armed and knowledgeable about their land, above and below ground and also believed in what they were fighting for, how come the US of A and other forces, did not win the day.
Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, China, have rich cultures and civilisations, going back a few thousand years. They may not have had the tanks and the planes and many of the arms that the enemy was in possession of, but the VietCong did have a belief, in what they were fighting for and many wars are won with guerrilla, partisan, underground fighting.
I think that to make use of their skills, in the way that they did, was extremely sophisticated, not primitive, however basic, any equipment may have been.
Having watched so many films and documentaries, about escape tunnels, built by imprisoned allies, in WWII, I am always in awe, of the skills these prisoners of war, utilised and working together, not only dug, quite sophisticated tunnels, at times, but produced uniforms, civilian clothing, documents etc. People to admire.
I have looked at the tunnels found in Gaza. Fascinating! Just shows you what lengths, humans will go to, when they are fighting for something, which they believe in......no matter what that cause may be.
''who reported the shots ???? both groups.... there are a number of reports of shots fired BEFORE the boarding.... and that has come from a number of sources.... besides how could the activists refuse to stop the bloody ships if they were not told to stop the ships.....
they were told, ordered and then shots were fired across the bow and the activists refused to stop sailing, as was their intention before they left on the trip and the activists stated that they intended to break the blockade.....''
Thank you for this information. Most informative. Can I ask, which news media you obtained it from...out of interest.
Why should they refuse to stop the ships, if they were in international waters, where Israel has no jurisdiction, unless Israel has decided to extend it's borders, by declaring an exclusion zone.
I think it's fairly obvious that they intended to break the blockade.....to deliver, what the convoy insisted was humanitarian aid......not much point in going, if they were not prepared to break the blockade.
''the more dramatic the better ????? yeah.... I quess they should have used a ladder instead.....''
No, it would have been better, if Israel had left the boats alone.
''ranticle, grow a brain will you, if you have no landing pad on a ship, and the ship will not stop to be boarded, of course you will rappel to the deck.... that is the same way that search and rescue groups do it when they can not board a ship.....
bloody S&R guys being more dramatic, sighs.... what are they thinking ... sighs....
try the fact its the easiest way to board ships that can not be boarded by boat
( yes the sarcasm there is so thick, you could bottle it )''
Insults now! Tut Tut, LDD! My name is Canticle and never, in my life, have I been known to rant. Get rather wordy and answer certain emails in an annoyed manner, due my frustration with an individual.
I've even been know to put the fear of God (not literally), into a 20 year old son, who was totally bereft, of any sense, when it came to money and got into serious, debt at college. He thanks me now, because he knows that I love him dearly.......but rant...No, No.....I never rant.
Oh, I think the Israeli forces would have had every intent, to scare the shit out of the activists. They didn't expect resistance. Well, they should have known better. When people are scared, they will do anything to defend themselves, even if they are peaceful, by nature. It's human instinct. I still believe that what the Israelis did, was over the top and unnecessary.
Sarcasm?......Sorry, but it wasn't that noticeable.....Nice try though!
''I never said you limit your knowledge gaining to google.... I was refering to the fact that you use multi forms of media for your info or lack of it.....
you are the one that misread and misinterpreted it''
Please inform me which multimedia I am consulting. Please tell me what I have misread or misinterpreted. Again...not something I am known for doing
''now, please before you create another 15 post run or a wall of text to rival the berlin wall, can you please check that when you pick holes in what i say... that you have some semblance of understanding of the way things work.....''
Am I not allowed to post what I want? Is it not my human right? I asked you questions and you have answered....not satisfactorily....but you have answered.
''so let me condense my post down
plastercrete can be used instead of cement..
S&R crews also board ships by rappeling, its not dramatic, its often the only way
anybody can create explosives, including school kids
any person can be dangerous, they do not need weapons
tunneling is as simple as digging a hole''
You already mentioned those.
''and you really need to learn more about some things before you post about them''
I am upon this earth to learn and the learning process is an ongoing one. We never stop learning. Some of us have more open minds and do not believe everything we are spoon fed. Count me as one of those people.
''and last by not least.....
not everything in a thread requires a single line of text in a single post by ranticle or a bloody great wall of text....''
Insults again.....my name is Canticle and I will post my way, not the way you wish me to.
''can you at least say a few more intelligent things and a lot less dribble''
And one thing more. I never write, or speak ''dribble.'' I understand many things and where I don't, I will ask questions. If I do not accept the answers as correct, or right.....that is my privilege. By the way, did you miss the sarcasm in some of my posts???
And guess what....I have a very good brain...a very good mind. In fact, someone once told me that I was the most intelligent person, they had ever met. I am far too modest, to say such a thing, but I do have a good brain and I am intelligent, highly intelligent. It seems to run in the family.
I don't think you are in a position to say who has posted important or not material.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Your above utterings are nasty and do not even begin to consider that the Christian and Muslim Palestinians, had a right to a homeland of their own, on land that their people had inhabited for generations.
An artificially created state, is always going to create problems and it does not matter what the religions, in any particular area, may be.
What choice did the Palestinians have, back in 1948, when they were ousted from their home villages and land and many forced into refugee camps, only to see the new State of Israel ''import,'' it's population.
Are you trying to tell me that Jews from around the world had more rights to the land than the Christian and Muslim population?
I would suggest, Fran, that my use of the Queen's English (and used to the best of my ability...please note...I stick commas everywhere, for I am never sure, where to put them), expresses me.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
I believe that sometimes...very often...people only read, what they want to read and so there comes a time, when, to make them read, you have to take their prose, bit by bit. An unfortunate thing...but in recent years, something, which I have found to be very necessary.
I do, at times, add a little humour to posts. I am a reserved person, but I am told that I have a dry humour.....so I must be getting something right!
One thing, which you will always find....clarity! One thing which you will never find.....dribble. I would never have been allowed to utter anything, which even touched, on being called ''dribble,'' by my late mother. just as I have never allowed my own children, to get away with talking horseshit!
Thank you for pointing that out, Fran and I'll say and be damned.....Well said!Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
''I agree fran, my posts can leave a lot to answer for.....''
Now, i would never comment upon your style, or content, presented the way you wish to present it. I could, but I wouldn't. Maybe I am too polite!
''but I am not known as a person that will multi quote a persons post just so I can add childish dribble.....''
What you don't like, or don't agree with, you call childish dribble. Many things, which you have posted, both upon this thread and others, could be read and many different conclusions drawn, by individuals. I see things which I agree with and disagree with.....but i would never criticise your style.
''I am no great communicator, but at least I am a lil more respectful of peoples questions''
I really do not understand why, you don't see yourself as a great communicator. You come across very clearly to me. I am always respectful of a person's questions, except when they begin to post certain things, which seem cruel or nasty, vulgar, crude and rude when there is no call for it, or when I feel that a people is being portryed as not worth the shit, we may wipe from our boots and the ideals of others, not worth defending.
''canticle asked questions of me, I answered them in post # 256 and well, canticles responses ( #259 ) to most of my replies... well..... hardly intelligent were they or needed''
I answered you my way. I was tired of the anti Palestinian lobby and of some of the things said...and you obviously missed my sarcasm. It wasn't very good sarcasm.......I can be a wizard at it.....but as sarcasm is the lowest form of wit....I try not to go there...if I can avoid it.
''it indicates a person that lacks the intelligence to create a post of their own and express their thoughts ... instead they need to disect another persons posts and comment on every lil part and thats where the dribble comes into it.....as they lack anything intelligent to say for every quoted part''
Now the insults again.....Now I lack a certain kind of intelligence. How dare you suggest such a thing. Yes, I dissect the prose of other people. Scroll back and you will read why. Don't try to tell me that I am not intelligent.
''all I am asking if canticle needs to post dribble, please do it to others posts, as I perfer not to reread my own replies covered in dribble....''
Heck! Now, you want special treatment? That would hardly be fair....would it. I don't drool...I don't dribble and I don't vomit up vile stuff either. And a few people have said some very near the knuckle things.....on this very thread.
Firstly, I want to apologise. Last night, I referred to you as ''HardHubby.'' Blame that on my failing eyesight and my need of a sight test. So, sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
Fran is right, it's never pointless. Whatever we can say or do, in the smallest or largest manner, to change this world of ours for the better, is worth it. If we are able to convince one person, to see the light, and look at something in a different way...then that change may leap from individual to individual.
We shouldn't preach. We should show, by example and with the words that come from deep within. the words which express our principles, belief, conviction and we set this before another. Their's to accept or reject. Their's to act upon and pass on the word. Whichever course they decide to take, we will have done out bit.
I don't believe that I am ever inarticulate. I've never been called that, at any point in my life. I've been guilty of not having the confidence to put myself out there in the world, but inarticulate.....No...never.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
Yes, I am passionate about what I believe in and I will express myself, to the best of my ability......but my replies are always necessary and never pointless...because to me, they are necessary and have meaning.
I'm not always correct and i can't always answer a question and thank the Cosmos, I am imperfect. For if there were no imperfections, there would be nothing to make perfect and we should all strive for that.
This has taken on a personal feel and the taste it leaves, within the mouth, is acrid. It lingers and causes pain. I have been called racist, anti-semitic, lacking intelligence etc. I don't believe I have accused anyone of actually being anything like that. Intolerant...Yes.....getting close to racist and relgiously intolerant remarks and also beginning to sound like the propaganda, governments churn out, but no direct accusations....though I am sure a certain person...will now correct me.
I don't believe in the cause of Zion. It seems many people think that others should, without argument and criticism, of the state of Israel. So many, of those people supporting Israel, don't seem to give a damn about the many innocent Palestinians. I'd feel the same way, if the people suffering, were Jews, in a wasteland of an Israel.
We are talking about people...not how holy a land may be. We are talking about the elderly, children, babies, the disabled and the ordinary citizen, who just wants to live a peaceful life. That is what matters.
HOORAH for Helen Thomas!!! you know that Senior Presidential reporter who I guess finally had enough of the White House BS after 50 years covering it and Finally Told It The Way It Is!!!! that was Friday today she Retired yikes what a coincidence:bowdown:
oh i'm going om holiday today for 5 weeks so flames and whatever else you call it prob will go unanswered, not worth the time or running a battery low(lappy)
''the way something that was very real and very dangerous, was dismissed as trivial, is my issue with canticles posts''
Excuse me, for post after post, people, who do not share your views and the views of others, tried to debate rationally and we then have one person, going on about ''nuking,'' Iran and you saying you'd have let the boats deliver the aid and then sunk them.
I call that dangerous and not dismissive, but spouting quite vile ideas. To see people post and support Israel is one thing, but for people to react, as if any criticism of Israel, is a personal insult, is unhealthy and very odd...Well, it is in my neck of the woods.
''unlike most people, I speak from experience in some fields, and jumping out of helicopters, weapons, military combat etc, is one of them.....''
You keep telling us this......but you are not the only armed forces veteran, here. Many people upon the site, have served in their country's army, navy, or airforce.
''its like you, fran, you speak from experience as a activist on the front line, you have been there, you know what is going thru peoples heads and how hard it can be on the mind and body, facing the riot squad''
Yeah, Fran will know and I know people who have been activists and I once knew, via my mother working with his wife, a member of the IRA. I've only ever protested on a small scale, within the work environment, so I don't know what it's like on the picket lines, but I do know, that I would be prepared to give my life fighting for what was right and the rights of others, even those people, I may not actually agree with.
''so when somebody says bully to me being in the military and how * dramatic * the israeli forces were by a armchair critic, its rather offensive, specially when that person doesn't have the experience in that type of situation or the activist experience....''
I found certain things, you said, offensive. Like I said.....earlier....you didn't pick up on my sarcasm.
''getting out of a helicopter and into a hostile situation and facing hostile, armed people is not a walk in the park, most vets know to take a shit before getting on the copter cos it could end up in ya pants if you don't.... you are facing a unknown enemy that can be intent on ending your life and you are pretty much highly at risk until you can get on the deck of the boat....''
And how do you think the people on the boats were feeling, when they saw the helicopters and armed troops? I guess that's different, though.
''as for the activists on the boat that were peaceful, non aggressive, well, they find themselves in a situation with gun fire and military forces coming on board and thats really gotta scare the shit outta most of them....
I reckon a lot of them signed on for a aid mission, not the mission from hell.....''
Well the Israelis commandos, certainly turned it into hell.
''thats why I am not arguing over israel and the palestines and gaza etc..... but sharing from real life experience, how it could have been avoided... and what would have happened on that boat that led to 9 deaths.... in the hope that it may help others understand a lil clearly that its not as easy as reading a book or a newspaper or watching tv and arguing history.....''
Strange...I thought you had made some comments about Israel and Palestine. I'll have to check.
Another point, you're no longer in the forces, I take it? I guess things could have changed, in the short time you have been away from such activity. It can't be decades, for you are not that old, but you are now talking from experience, but as a civilian. I'd say that the military of one countries, is likely to behave in a different manner, from another country's forces and that the sophistication of arms used, is changing all the time.
Luckily, the majority of us will never have to see military action, or be in dangerous situations. We may not have the personal experience, of someone who has been in the forces, but we can guess that both the commandos and the people on the boats, were scared, but for different reasons and the adrenalin was running high. We can gauge, that in such a situation, what was not planned to be a violent attack, turned out as just that. We only have to think of the terrible things, that happen in any war or conflict situation.
''knowledge is one thing, but experience is another..... reading the newspaper never caused me to near shit my pants....''
Well, there will always be young men, who will be doing that...just as long as there is war and conflict. And we can't all be members of the forces. We have to rely upon the media and the words of those, there, in any one situation, to inform us of what happened.
And with that, I'm bowing out. Not running away, I never do that, but bowing out. The subject is not pointless, but the debating is.
I find that trying talk to such ardent and fundamentalist Pro-Zionists (and why, I wonder...Is is because of government policy). is as futile as trying to debate with fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist creationist Christians or fundamentalist atheists.
There, that should please a few people
So, ''Goodnight and Goodluck''
the chain of command works on the premise that you are sending numbers to remove obstacles and that is a lot of reason why there is a move to minimize eye to eye target contact..... its not to do with safety and minimizing loss of life..... and a lot more to do with the fact that its easier to retain your sanity if you use lethal force and never face the fact you killed somebodies family member, lover, partner......Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
thats the key to understanding what happened..... the average person will see soldiers boarding a ship, being attacked by activists and lethal force being used......
what actually happened is different...
trained soldiers entered a hostile environment, their role was to subdue resistance, take command of the bridge, and await further orders.....
they were not armed to engage, they carried side arms in the event of hostile aggressive resistance as a further measure.....
the activists ( the hostile ones ) reacted with force and turned the ship into a full combat zone, indicating that they were capable of using lethal force....
in a trained soldier, the first thing that happens is that all thoughts of friend and foe go out the window, they slip into evaluate / eliminate mode...and thats what the soldiers did.... they eliminated a lethal threat....not activists and not people, they eliminated a lethal threat.....
you are the ones that see people taking other peoples lives and you are the ones that add the labels of activist and soldier... and morals, ethics, emotions, judgments
soldiers generally don't..... that can cost us our lives in a hostile zone where lethal force is being used....
now the iran elite quard is talking about getting involved.... they are not protecting the activists, they do not care about the activists, they are looking for a way to eliminate what they percieve to be a viable threat.... the israeli soldiers......
this is why I am saying.... can we just sail the ships into ashdod port..... and stop more bloodshed and loss of life.... or are people so hellbent on being right that they are happy to push for actions that could result in major loss of life....
I will not speak for all of the activists, as there was 6.99 ships that never raised arms against the commandos..... they are people that I would deem as intelligent and peaceful activists that only wanted to deliever aid....Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
my issue is with the ones that got aggressive, they placed everybody at risk....and thats what cost lives....
honestly fran, I am not convinced that the people that attacked the commandos were part of the original aid movement... their mannerism and way of handling things is not normal for a activist / pacifist movement....
and I am not just refering to the attacking of the soldiers......
I did glance at a news report that claimed that the 9 killed were actually part of a seperate group that boarded the shop at a different port...... but since I never read that article properly, I can not really comment..... but it would match my gut feelings
The word I would use is drivel... much less nice and much more descrptive of when dross is reeled out of gobs.. cyber or otheriwse.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
*Accepts slapped face gracefully and laughs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
Imperfection me darlin', muchly makes us who we are, Canticle.. be not ashamed of it. God knows I'm mightily flawed myself... rather have your imperfections that the perfections of other, more pious people...:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariersa
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7145664.ece
“Any comments on Israel?” she was asked. “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine,” she replied.
Heph suggests relocating them in the USA as "New Israel" (New York, Nova Scotia, NEw Zealand etc...) where they will be loved and not hated.
".....Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,....."
LDD - see post 167 please
The soldiers started firing BEFORE they landed on the Mavi Marmara. On the other boats the were no less gentle. The witnesses on at least one other boat tells of stun grenades and rubber bullets.
.
Amusing, Heph, I'm beginning to see why we dumped the tea in the Boston Harbor with such glee.
Britain was the main reason Israel was given this land after the Holocaust, you remember that little thing that cost the nation of Jews 6million people, over a million children. This land was created so they would have a nation where they were not scorned, not murdered and not oppressed. The very day that Israel was ready to take up their own status they were attacked by Arab nations with the intent of wiping them off the face of this Earth. They repelled the attack and even gained ground. The IDF leader was quoted as saying "Israel will never again be left without the means to defend themselves" Now you think they should just pack up and go "home" They are home. And they have the right to live in peace, not under constant attack, not with Gaza firing rockets into civilian areas.
There are innocents in Gaza, Israel recognizes that and will allow humanitarian aid. But not anything that can be used against Israel. Yet Hamas is on record as stating they will not accept any aid that Israel has vetted? Why? Because they know that nothing is gonna slide past Israeli inspection. Do you honestly believe that Israel should just allow guns and whatever into Gaza? Fine maybe they should, and then I guess Israel has the right to completely wipe them out. Yeah that sounds like a great solution right? No, there are innocents there that don't deserve to be butchered because of their leaders. The same with Israel, there are innocents who don't deserve to have to fear being murdered in their beds by a rocket fired from Gaza and they damned sure don't deserve the scorn that people in Britain seem determined to lay on them, never mind Britain put them there in the first place.
As my last comment on this for a few days Twyla.. Britain wasn't.. I think you should read your history a little closer or find another.. the UN was responsible for the establishment of the state of Israel.. the British mandate (given by the old League of Nations) was due to expire and Britian was in no position to renew it and did not wish to do so, and so was to leave at its expiry in any case.. the UN role is interesting and it is its strategy which was responsible largely the civil war in Palestine which preceded Israel's Declaration of Independence the day before the mandate ended.. Palestinian arabs had fled their homes in droves and the collapse of the Palestinian arab economy was a direct result of the UN strategy largely pushed by the US. It is a very complex issue.. that Britain bears so much responsibility for the problem cannot be denied, it does not bear the responisibility you lay at its door quite in the way you put it.. that Britian should have resolved the issue long before it did is undeniable, but in the end it was the UN strategy which created the wars preceding and following the creation of the Israeli state.Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Till next week xoxoxox.
Fran, my point is they were put there. They are home. And everyone saying they should be moved elsewhere is nothing more than just whistling in the wind. Defense of home is second nature to anyone, more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives.
israeli stated that they fired across the bow of the lead ship before they boarded it.....I am not surprised people heard shots..... but I find it a lil hard to believe that soldiers rappeling down ropes, were opening fire, as its not that easy to do..... so I am inclined to believe that the shots came from other people on boats and in the copters....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
I have been told that yes sound grenades were fired onto the ships before boarding.... and they are vastly different to bullets, so I am waiting to see independent video of the ships showing damage to the ships consistent with live round firing .... that would support the claims of rounds fired before boarding..... unless the bullets never hit the ship, which would support suppressive fire, not lethal fire....or they were rubber bullets
that type of action is designed to cause panic and unsettle people, not to harm them....
that tells me that the activists that attacked the commandos, were not your average activist, as your normal activist would duck for cover, not engage the commandos.... something that a few other people have noticed in various media and websites....
the actions in detaining the activists is standard, the handties etc..... its the same tactic the us and british troops use in iraq....... so it was not excessive, it is a non aggressive way of handing potential issues in the event of a armed exchange of fire....
the israelis state that they believed that they may be facing armed people...and there is speculation ( unproven at this stage ) that people were shot with weapons that the israelis were NOT carrying .... if that is true.... then once again, it would prove that not all of the people of the ships, were activists, they were there for a different agenda....
I am not denying what happened on the ships, I am just not believing various versions of events from protestors and activists that may not have a understanding on what was actually happening or what weapons and bullets were actually used.....
hell even the police can mistake a bb gun for a real one and some of them are ex trained soldiers.....
TwylaQuote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
You do seem to enjoy repeating the propoganda myths that you have been brainwashed with...lol
Russia lost more lives than the Jews during WW2 but lets not let this thread become a reliving of WW2. 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. The exact number of Russians who died during WW2 is speculative still but I've heard reports of as many as 26 million Russians died during WW2. Both groups suffered horribly and the propoganda about how much the jews suffered is sometimes over dominating. It was horrific and that can not be denied but the Jews were not the only group in history to suffer such great tragedies. If you are ever in Russia, you may want to take note of how many war memorials that there are to those who died during WW2. Brides still go and place their wedding boquet at the foot of these memorials as part of their wedding celebrations. We rarely hear about the great losses that the Russians suffered.
Reality today is that there are two groups both claiming the same territory as their home and neither seems to want to share the land in peace. Both have made errors and both have been victims. If the USA removed its financial support, would Israel disappear? I don't know but the US is certainly in part responsible for the present situation. It can not be said that the US has not tried to "fix it" at the same time that they pay such huge amounts of money more to Israel than Palestinians. This happens both at the state sponsored aid level and individual US people aid level. Are the funds balanced to both groups? Clearly not. The US citizens and Canadian citizens were permitted to give huge amounts of money to the IRA as well. That only prolonged the suffering in Ireland. The US and Canada governments want the Palestinians in Gaza to suffer because they dared to democratically elect Hamas as their government. Remember that this was done democratically. Hamas is wrong to continue sending rockets into to Israel. Can we really blame them though? REallY?...lol What would you do if you were a Palestinian in Gaza?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Tenni, please don't twist what I said, I said that the Jewish nation lost more lives at one time than anyone else due to a country trying to exterminate them. This wasn't war time casualties, this was gas ovens and digging your own graves before a squadron of soldiers riddled your body with bullets. And speculative totals don't prove anything, Tenni. Now as to your point that Hamas was elected democratically, sure they were and so was Hitler. I'm sure the majority of the citizens of Palestine cheerfully voted for them and then found to their horror that they weren't interested in anything resembling peace they want the Jewish nation exterminated. Not removed from "their land" exterminated. Yes, I blame Gaza for sending rockets into Israel when they know that Israel will only prolong the blockade. I blame Gaza for not standing up and telling Hamas "No More" and "Let Gilad Shalit free" so that they may finally get the relief that people are trying to get through to them. And what proof does anyone have that anything that makes it into Gaza goes to the people who need it anyway? Especially with Hamas stating they will accept no aid that has been vetted by Israel. Because they know there will be no secret messages, no gun parts, no supplies to make ammunition and bombs and damned sure no more rockets. So yes I blame the people of Gaza for not taking a stand, if Hamas was democratically elected they can be democratically overthrown by the people who want peace. So spare the brainwashed US crap, I have never allowed anyone else to do my thinking for me.
Oh and lovely quote about the Democratically elected Hamas...
Read all about it yourselfQuote:
In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
And their covenant
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
Yes Hamas is such a lovely group of people, bound and determined to remove an entire race from this world simply because they believe that exterminating them is the will of Allah.
Twyla
Your exact words "more so to a nation that has suffered more than any other nation on this earth. The Jewish nation. No other nation has lost so many lives." do not refer to one time.
I see now that you are referring to the entire history of humanity. We do not have the figures and so we can only accept your premise in all fairness yes the Jews have suffered...and Jewish comedians love to repeat that over and over again.
Your points about democratically elected and justification to nullify the importance of that is selective rationalization. Ok, for you it is not important that Hammas is the democratically elected government of Gaza because "you" do like them. You blame Gaza citizens for not standing up against Hamas. The fact that the people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government should inform you that they think that Hamas is the best group to stand up for Gaza's citizens. You get to vote for your president and democratically elect whom ever you want. Uh..lots of us didn't like your last president but there he was doing what he wanted to do. Invading and killing hundreds of thousands and all. Why you don't have him in jail and still argue about Gaza's citizens is too strange. I therefore should hold you responsible for illegally invading Iraq and blame you for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens. I should blame you and all US citizens for not arresting your last president. Gaza citizens are bad.... but not US citizens?... but back to Gaza. I hold Hamas responsible for any Jews that the rockets kill. Do you hold Israel responsible and blame Israel for killing Turks and one of your own citizens? I suspect that you do not hold Israel responsible and support Israel in killing people in international waters. Let's agree to not agree.
Go ahead and blame me, Tenni. That's your opinion, but your remarks are totally uncalled for. Israel acts in self defense, Gaza fires rockets cause it hates Jews. Yeah so blame me for the Iraqi war and blame me for global warming and blame me for Al Queda flying planes into a civilian area for no other reason than they didn't like America.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Twyla re post 305
A little drama madam with your whine?:bigrin:
Th remarks were called for to show a comparison of your logic falacy. I don't blame you as I hope that you opposed (blamed ) your government's evil deeds at some point in time during the reign of King George ( or was it really King Dick?).
As to who is defending themselves is where the questions become more difficult to assess. Are Israel's actions self defence or acts of aggression? Are the Palestinians' defending themselves or being the aggressors?
This post may be followed by a protest by Pasa about picking on us....anti-American...yada..yada...
Actually, I was sitting here wondering why you were trying to bait me into saying something bannable? You know full well that I opposed Bush and a lot of other Americans did as well. You know full well that he was close to being called to answer in an impeachment trial. You know full well that America is at heart a defender of freedom. Yes, I support Israel. I have made no secret of that. But I also remember there are still some innocent people in Gaza. I posted the Hamas charter claiming they want to wipe out the Jews. Hamas is a terrorist organization posing as a unified goverment. You would care if it was Canadians they wanted to wipe out cause they couldn't stand someone saying "Eh?". Why don't you care that want to wipe out an entire religious nation? And something else and you can't deny it, if Canada was ever attacked by something like Hamas, America would have your back in a heartbeat with all the firepower we could bring to bear.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
You need to give me 5 to 10 minutes as I frequently alter edit my post...;) This is not about (the) "US". The beginning of any US posters reference to their country on a thread not about their country...I glaze over...sorry what did you say about the US as a saviour...never mind......
Funny, can't deny what I said so you make sarcasm about it. There is no denying that Hamas wants the complete annihilation of the Jews and as for them wanting peace?? Read the charter. Never mind that might be too much work so I'll quote that part..Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Quote:
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)
Tenni was right about one thing: The people of "Palestine" elected Hamas as their government.
Which means they support terrorism. They support suicide bombings. They support bombs in Discos, and nurseries, and playgrounds, and buses, and apartment buildings. They support RPGs being fired, not at military targets, but at no particular target at all. They support the Hamas position that no solution can be acceptable as long as Israel exists.
And one wonders why I cannot give equal weight to both sides? There is no moral equivalency. Israel is a democracy who tries, and sometimes fails, to live under the democratic system. Palestine is a terrorist "state" who refuses, by it's very charter, to allow their neighbor to exist.
Palestine could have Gaza and the Western Bank fixed. Today. It could have everything it wants. All it has to do is commit itself to leaving Israel alone. Lay down their arms, quit allowing Syria and Iran to whisper in their ear while placing AKs and RPGs in the hands of their children.
No. This is not a situation of two sides who are equally abused and abusers. There is no moral equivalency. They, their nation, are terrorists who elected terrorists to commit acts of terrorism. The Hamas are butchers who even butcher their own countrymen. And they were elected.
No. Moral. Equivalence.
Pasa
Pasa
re:your post 310
If you read my post 304, you will not read that I referred to the Palestinians electing Hamas. If you do find it somewhere else I didn't mean all Palestinians as they are not all in Gaza. I referred to "the people of Gaza electing Hamas".
I think that it is a perspective (that you seem to support) to believe that the people of Gaza support terrorism etc. I don't think that the people of Gaza would explain it that way though. I have no idea how they might contextualize what you see as terrorism, which state is terrorist state etc. Both democratically elected their governments as far as I can determine. Some people in your country and Israel don't like the results of the election.
I'm not sure demanding that Gaza or Palestine put down their arms for peace. Why doesn't your country put down its arms for peace? Few countries are willing to totally disarm. Your words indicate that you are not keen on recognizing Palestine or Gaza as sovereign states. They see themselves as sovereign or demand their sovereignty.
I have never discussed this with a Palestinian or a middle east person from other than Israel. Have you Pasa?....Twyla? I try to keep my mind a little open to both voices.
I don't need to. I read their press releases. What part of "there can be no peace as long as Israel exists" do you not get, Tenni? That's THEIR OWN FUCKING WORDS. That's in their charter. That's not just idle chit chat.
Their financial backers, Iran, says the same thing on a nearly daily basis. Ahmadinijad (sp) states that Israel needs to be wiped off the planet, that the Holocaust never happened, and on, and on, and on.
I don't give a damn, frankly, how the Palestinians would contextualize terrorism. You blow up a nursery, you're a terrorist. And, after what they have done at least in my lifetime, I don't really give a damn if they don't want to lay down their arms. If they want aid, if they want to rebuild, if they want peace, that's what they'll do. Choices have consequences. Choose to be terrorists? You get a siege. Choose to embrace peace, you get all sorts of goodies from the world.
But, they elected terror to lead them. I don't think they want aid, or to rebuild, or peace. I think they want Jihad. I think they want to fight until the last man. And I think, if that's what they want, Israel is more than willing to allow them to.
Pasa
LDD - I know that it is difficult to accept but the evidence consistently indicates that the operation was a disaster from the word go. From operating in an area where there was no legal juristiction, judged excessive use of force, loss of general world sympathy to compromising friends and allies.
It was a cock-up where people lost lives and health. The Israelis should really be looking towards a damage limitation exercise where they give free reign to an independant e.g. UN enquiry. They would come out better if they accepted the foregone conclusion that they were in the wrong and changed their stance overtly.
Other countries have done this in the past and salvaged their reputations. As things stand even their own peple are begining to hang their heads in shame. When a country reaches that stage the future looks grim for them.
.
Two wrongs do not make a right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
There are varying degrees of wrong, Heph. The two aren't even in the same category of wrong, let alone being balanced.
Pasa
You are right - the convoy faux pas is infinitely worse because the targets were precise visible and sitting ducksQuote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
.
unfortunately, israel was acting according to the international naval / marine rules, regarding the blockade and were within their rights.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
international maritime law
now I am not defending Israel, their actions or laying the blame on the activists..... I do not think in terms of country or civil / diplomatic rights like most of my fellow posters.....
I am viewing it from the point of one country engaging ships that refused to stop or way lay to a nearby port for the confirmation of non lethal cargo
now the evidence indicates that the ships failed to stop, refused to stop and made every attempt NOT to stop
if it was on land and police officers were dealing with a car, then they were believe that there was good reason to suspect that the occupants may have criminal reason for failing to stop.....
I use the same rule of thumb in regards to the ships.....
the boarding of the ship went wrong the moment that lethal force was applied, regardless of who started it.....
I apply the rule of home self defence there..... a invader in your home may be armed and dangerous, but it doesn't turn to shit, until lethal force is used by the home owner or the invader.....
in this case, lethal force was used against the commandos by *peaceful * protestors..... its a contradiction in terms... it would be like darkeyes ( a pacifist ) training in the SAS as a deep ops commando.....
the commandos were not there to start a firefight, they were there to bring the ships into port, as the activists refused to.....hence they were not fully equipped with full lethal armament..... as they believed they were facing a peaceful not aggressive ship load of passengers.....
now here is where I am confused....
why has pics being edited, not by israel but by reuters
edited pics
here are 4 videos that show clearly, it was a night time attack.... and that the commandos were attacked 4 videos
this is a video from a IDF boat Boat video
all statements and opinions aside.... you can see peaceful protesters.... engaging in violence and using lethal force...... nobody can tell me any different on that count, as I am seeing the videos, not reading what people may say in news sites......
now I have heard the stories about the commandos using lethal force.... but I have never heard of commandos inflicting injuries on themselves deliberately or beating themselves with iron bars etc.....
ok, like I said, I am not defending israel or accusing the activists, I am treating this the same as I would, a issue between two NZ army platoons,.... I would want answers, not bullshit.... cos I would have heads rolling on the carpet from both sides... and as twyla can tell you, I take no sides, I have even had her ass busted a couple of times in a online game and she is my real life partner, and my friends in the game learnt very quickly that friend or foe.... I seek out the truth but I will not take sides and I perfer to hear, see and understand all points of view
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
Bullshit. They were told not to try to break the blockade. They were warned. They ignored the warning. Their entire mission was to break the blockade. Sorry, they were only sitting ducks because they placed themselves there.
And this is not infinitely worse than blowing up a bus full of passengers, or a thousand other atrocities the Palestinians have committed in their Jihad.
Pasa