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Chose to leave?
So by this logic, if people chose to leave after Katrina, and someone else took over their homes, they wouldn't be allow to go back.. Gee.. they lost the war yes.. but under all circumstance they have the right to go back.
I wonder if you replace the word Israel with say Iran/North Korea, and Palestinian with a random other minority in that country how that would sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Since you posted your mail here, I'll post my response.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
First, don't debate with me privately. If you have to something to say, post in in the thread for all to see. Second, American, Palestinian or Martian makes no difference, activists take the risks they choose.
Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?
Twyla,
Being an Arab I tell you that is not true. I know my people and I know the we are an emotional bunch, we get angry, we yell, we scream, but that's as far as we go. In Jordan and Egypt there are Israeli tourists going there. Palestinians in the Westbank (and previously from Gaza) work with Israelis often. The fanatics you are talking about exist on both sides and they are still a minority.
After all, people are people regardless of race, colour, religion, sexual orientation etc. We all want the same basic things: food, shelter, health, education, a hope for a great future for our kids.
I do remember stories my grandfather used to tell about him dating Jewish women in Jerusalem and how they used to live side by side and mix normally like any other place. I wish that they created a state on all of that land for all its people. A secular democratic state where every person is equal regardless of their race, religion, color, etc. Unfortunately the decision was made to create a state for jews only. By definition a state that is only for a single religion is not an equal state. Such a state grants more rights to a jewish kid born in New York that has never stepped foot in that land, than a Palestinian kid born on that land and whose grandparents lived on this land.
We live in a depressing world dont' we.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
It's an analogy. Hits a nerve doesn't it. I guess you do think Americans are worth more than Palestinians.
Btw, terrorists are a tiny minority. There are many ordinary people living in Gaza.
And btw, Israel in the past has considered it its right to attack any country imposing a blockade on it. Did someone change the rules suddenly? Wouldn't the logic apply to Gaza.
HUGE DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a supporter of violent resistance. Just pointing out a flaw in the logic used
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Really? Then tell that to all the documented speeches of leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan. Since they are ones calling for extermination of the Jewish nation.
Egypt, Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, so you got that completely off.
Palestinian leaders are in negotiation with Israel so this one is also wrong.
Syria and Iraq are part of the Arab league and they are part of the Pan-Arab peace offer to Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
Plus, there is no such country as Palestine, it does not exist at the moment. All palestinian territories are occupied.
Btw... if Arabs are such monsters I wonder how there are bus loads of tourists entering Jordan everyday from Israel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
I said documented speeches as in anyone who has called for Jihad or extermination of the Jewish nation. Right now the loudest screaming is Iran and they want nuclear weapons to blow Israel off the map, never mind the people in Gaza that might not survive the blow and definitely wouldn't survive the radiation. Or any of the other close Arab countries that will suffer should Iran send a nuclear bomb into Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
So how about you take a look at a few things...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=11583
http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyah...calls-1.284045
The world changes e.g. The IRA signed a peace treaty in Ireland.
At present, Israel has an unprecedented peace offer from the Arab world. It chooses to ignore it.
And btw, the only state in the middle east to hold nuclear weapons is Israel itself.
The second URL you posted doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Analogies are generally comparative. Comparing a natural disaster to losing a war is seriously flawed if that is your idea of analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
My analogy is that people run away from war, natural disaster, etc. until things settle down.
In both cases people did run away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
What you stated with your analogy was not what you just said. There is no comparison to running away (If enough notice is given) from a natural disaster and running from a war. Losing a war leaves you with your home occupied by the victors and suffering a natural disaster leaves you with a mess to clean up when it's over.
You continue to say that not all the people of Gaza are terrorists, I never said all the people there are. But apparently enough of them are there that they have a steady supply of rockets to fire into Israel. That is why Israel has the right to inspect the "aid" that is coming in and reject anything that could be used for insurgence. They have no problem letting in food, blankets, medicine and clothing, they have a problem with the idea that they should allow a ship to just sail into that port and offload whatever. Put yourself in their shoes for one moment, your next door neighbor is barricaded by you from the rest of world because of his threat to kill you. You inspect any aid going in but you would not allow a gun and ammo or the means to make a bomb to go in now would you? If you would, then you are a bigger fool than the fool who threatens to wipe out a nation in the name of religion.
Works fine for me me but I'll post the article it links toQuote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday called on the world "to confront Iran's exterminatory intentions and act resolutely to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons."
Netanyahu spoke at the state ceremony on the eve of the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.
"The historic failure of free societies to confront the Nazi beast was that they did not face it in time," Netanyahu said. "And today we are witness to the old hatred of Jews once again, fueled by extremist Islamic authorities, led by Iran and its satellites."
"Iran's leadership is racing to develop nuclear weapons and declares its intention to destroy Israel. The world is gradually accepting Iran's exterminatory declarations regarding Israel and still we do not see the international determination required to stop the arming of Iran. But if we learned something from the Holocaust, it is that we cannot remain quiet or flinch in the face of evil."
Earlier in the ceremony, President Shimon Peres said the world must not repeat its indifference at the face of new cries for the destruction of the Jewish people.
Peres went on to say that "Israel will never forget the two decrees which the Holocaust enforced."
"The firm demand to sustain an independent Jewish state, one that holds its security in its own hands while at the same time tirelessly seeking peace as well as the demand to treat threats of annihilation, Holocaust denials, and terror mongering with the utmost severity."
Referring to comments made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has threatened to "wipe the Zionist regime off the map," Peres said that it was Israel's right "and duty to demand the nations of the worlds never to repeat their indifference, one which cost millions of lives, including their own."
"The ears of the United Nations must be attuned to the threats of annihilation made by one member of the UN against another. Otherwise, the foundation which holds the UN charter will collapse," Peres said.
Referring to efforts to make the Middle East a nuclear-free zone, the president said that "in order to reach clean skies in the Middle East we must first dismantle the threats of annihilation."
"Weapons of mass destruction in hands capable of destroying masses accompanied by voices calling for such destruction are the combination most perilous to world peace. They turn the world into an uncontrollable place," Peres said.
The President added that he believed that some "parts of the Iranian people are themselves ashamed of the tyranny which has taken hold of it," adding that he thought the Arab states were "aware that Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel incitement is meant to disguise his real aim, which is establishing Iran as a regional power."
"The [Second] World War broke with the Nazis' devilish incitement, claiming that they were a supreme race and Deutschland Uber Alles. We must never return to the beastly conception according to which there is such a thing as a supreme man, or supreme regime, or supreme race which can do whatever it sees fit," Peres said.
Earlier in his speech, President Peres said that with night falling on all of Israel, evening had also fallen "not long ago on Antopol, Zhoromin, Rodnik and Mikhalova, towns that three quarters of their population was was wiped out. Not a single Jew is left."
"Night has fallen on the village of Tostanovitza, where 2,803 Jews were murdered, on Libau in Latvia, where 7,101 Jews were murdered, on Khelm by Lublin from which 15,000 Jews were sent to their death," Peres said, adding that "darkness has also started covering the shadows of Dachau, Auschwitz and Birkenau, as well as Vishnive, where I was born and visited again as an Israeli minister, with not even one wooden beam left from the Jewish homes and the synagogue."
Recalling the trip to his childhood town, Peres said he "visited the well that stood in our backyard. The water did not burn. I drew the bucket to taste the wasters of my childhood, and the water burned in my mouth, the taste of the fire which destroyed the town's people, my family, who remained there."
"This night spread like a mourner's hut on the thousands of communities whose existence became a petrified tombstone, whose people and culture burned to ashes."
A sundown covering the devastated synagogues and shuls, theaters and cultural institutions, the books that were set alight, the schools that turned to ashes. All erased, the lives, the houses, the culture, a world's smoky embers."
"That fire will continue to burn within us, as an impossible farewell to our six million brothers, men, women, and elderly people, to a million and a half of our children, an immense potential of life and talent that was annihilated, an unreturnable loss."
"He who passes today through the town of Zivorov in the Ukraine cannot know that in that place, one summer day in the beginning of 1941, a thousand Jews were shot to death and buried in two pits in the town."
"He who passes today cannot hear the cry of April 9, 1943, when 2,300 Jews were forced to dig their own graves near the Sokolinaya gymnasium. They were murdered and thrown into the pits they dug with their own hands."
"'What shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion?'" asks the Book of Lamentations, and asked the survivors of the ramps in Treblinka, Auschwitz and Birkenau, and asked those who arrived in Israel and immediately enlisted to the defense of the people in their fight for independence."
Also referring to the defense of the Jewish people in light of the lessons learned by the Holocaust, Israel Defense Forces chief Gabi Ashkenazi said earlier Sunday that never again would the Jewish people lack the means to defend themselves.
Speaking at the Yad Vashem memorial, Ashkenazi said the Jewish people "will never again be dependent on the benevolence of others," Ashkenazi said. "Never again will Jewish children be fearful or begging for mercy. Never again will an advocate of evil be able to dictate the future of the Jewish people."
"In the name of my father and his family who fought for a sovereign and independent state and in the name of the millions who were unable to witness the realization of their dream, I stand here today as the commander of the Hebrew defense force, the Israel Defense Forces."
Ashkenazi talked about the experiences of his father, a Holocaust survivor from the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv.
"On the night of March 9th, 1943, my father's family opened their door to find Bulgarian police ordering them to prepare to be deported from Bulgaria within a few hours," Ashkenazi said. "Along with 6,000 other Jews, my father assembled in the yard of the school and recited the prayer 'Shema Yisrael.' In the end, my father and the Jews of Plovdiv were not sent to the death camps. The cancellation of their deportation order arrived when they were already at the train station, a short time before they were supposed to depart.
hardnbubbly
Thank you for posting to this thread. I think that it is very important that we read the thoughts of those of an Arab background. In North America we too frequently hear more about a pro Israel perspective. In Canada, we have a very pro Israel PM. What are your thoughts about why North America hears more pro Israel thoughts in our media than pro Palestine?
Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, a representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday.
hmm ...interesting. Time will tell if any of these groups accept the offer.
It's hard to say, maybe its because the Arab world is ruled by puppet regimes that do not answer to their people but to the (super)powers that keep in them in place.
When the western world claims they are putting a democracy in place what the people see is bombs falling on their heads and corrupt governments that do not represent their needs. When convenient they prop up a dictator (e.g. Saddam Hussain) and when it stops being convenient they destroy the country. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon have seen it all as well. Lebanon was supposed to be getting a "democratic" pro-western government, how was it rewarded? By Israel bomb the hell out of it. Bombing the infrastructure, bombing everything.
Anyway, what I am trying to say, we have governments that do not represent us in the middle east. Our voice is not heard. However, I think the internet is slowly changing that. At least for the internet connected world.
The other reason is that many of the zionist jews who moved into Israel/Palestine did so from Europe and North America. They spoke the same languages and understood the intricacies of western culture. For Arabs, it is still a foreign culture.
It is also hard to underestimate the effect of an organized PR campaign coming from a sovereign state as opposed to the scattered unorganized message you get from groups supporting Palestinian human rights.
Also, there is quite a bit of media owned by Zionist Jews (I make the distinction since not all Jewish people support the actions of the government of Israel) and media affects a society's perception of reality.
Probably the last reason is strategic political coming from the Cold War days, the U.S. government decided that Israel is probably the best counter balance to the soviet influence. I can only imagine that they had to sell this to the American people one way or another, and probably started the whole Israel is a beacon of democracy vs the savage Arabs argument.
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Originally Posted by tenni
Personally, Tenni, I think any of the groups that do so are foolish. That would just be the catalyst to start a complete Middle Eastern war with the intention of wiping out Israel, one of Iran's main goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Dont know where u got that from..they were forced out or left for fear of their lives.. funny how history seems to read differently from country to country..:( ...and it has been going on since the inception of Israel.. it would have occurred whether or not a warr had happened, maybe a little slower initially but Israel's intention was and remains Israel for the Jews... no one else gets a look in..not Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and certainly not Arab..Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Would you listen to yourself Twyla.. what do u think Israel has been doing for the last 60 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Yea... right... and piggies fly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Let me put this straight before you Duckie.. I AM an activist.. I dont sit at home all day and night simply writing futile posts to sites such as this.. I demonstrate and I act..it is the way I was raised and it is the way I live when the need arises.. I have risked arrest on picket lines, been faced with and indeed clattered by police batons and in France by a police riot shield.. I have lain down in front of police and military vehicles more than once and nop doubt shall do that again.. I have stood firm on a peaceful picket line as it has been driven at by vans and lorries.. I act..it puts my life at risk and my comrades put theirs at risk.. I have been struck and kicked, beaten and more than once hurt quite badly.. this also may happen again.. I will not raise my hand to any.. I am a pacifist and I believe in my pacifism absolutely.. what has happened this last week was appalling..we disagree as to who is the most likely guilty party.. no one can escape blame entirely but to blame those on the ship for the loss of life is a travesty.. if I had been on board I would have done what I suspect most did.. stood and awaited my fate.. that some stood up to them and defended themselves by weilding whatever came to hand I have no doubt on that also.. there is some anecdotal evidence that the Israeli's fired early before they were attacked.. unfortunately the video evidence is lying in a vault somewhere in Israel so we can never be entirely sure..Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Collateral damage in a struggle is inevitable because of how our societies think and act.. the collateral damage in this case is the death of far too many people and injuries to many more.. no soldiers were killed and believe it or not for that I am thankful.. and not for the reason you may believe.. I just do not believe in the taking of life under any circumstances.. but collateral damage will happen and people will get hurt.. as long as we live in an armed world it will ere be thus.. but while I will never raise my hand to any.. sometimes the cause is just too important not to act and put our lives at risk.. I have done that in my own small way.. that I will do so again is likely.. but it was not the crews and those on board who put lives at risk and certainly did not take any.. that was down to quite another party.. and go to sea? Yes I would do it Duckie.. I love a nice cruise in the sun.. but the Med is also mighty cold in winter.. I have some quite sexy winter gear for that too.. for some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety..
"or some of us principle and belief is more important than personal safety.."
I'm not sure at this point in my life if I can make the same statement darkeyes but I too have been more activist if I believe in a cause. This week I am trying to find the courage to go to a meeting and speak out against what I know is an injustice connected to where I live. After standing up for what you believe in time after time is difficult if you do not see results. In particular results for your own body. I commend those who are standing up to Israel as I understand the situation. My first post reference how complex this all is and there are layers of various views that make finding the "truth" difficult.
However, I do not understand how anyone who was not on these ships can post that the activists are to blame. The video images were released by Israel. If you are being attacked and kicked as has been reported by activists who were on the ships, why would you not pick up anything to protect yourself whether it is a piece of wood or metal? I think that it is very irresponsible to make up your mind that the activists were wrong and deserved what they got (killed) at this point in time if ever. We were not there. Those that were there tell a different story. Reports are coming out that gunfire happened before the military had even finished repelling on to the ship. Arguments about what parts of the body were shot (upper torso on those who died) rather than legs. It is reported that those shot in the lower extremities were shot after the ones who died. That is what is being reported and I for one will not decide who is to blame at this point.
It is quite possible that there were radical extremists who support violent methods among the activists though. We just do not know as there was apparently 700 activisits and I would not be surprised that some support radical violent approaches. No proof has been presented yet though. We don't even know which nine people were killed and how they lives as far as protesting this issue. Were any pacifists? Were any radical extremists? I have not read anything about the dead.
I certainly hope they accept. I'd love to see the RGs get their asses handed to them. Then again, I'd love an excuse to take Iran out of the picture all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Pasa
Clean up in aisle 4...that is the warhawk aisle...lol (kid'n Pasa)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
''if you do not like it, tough !!!!!''
Heh, you can't say that! it's usually my line!!!
''the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....''
What do you call weapons?? i think that is they knew that the Israelis were likely to commit an act of piracy and war, upon the high seas.....then anything they had which could be used in a defensive manner.....they had a right to be in possession of.
''the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission''
Since when have commandos......fully armed.....coming down fom helicopters, been known to be about to say ''I say, old bean, do us all a favour and don't resist and then we will be nice chappies to you'' ???????
''the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to''
Why should they trust the israelis to deliver any of the aid? I know I wouldn't.
''but if you really wanna get down and dirty....''
Jolly d
''what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....''
I'm not a great fan of the French, so how did you guess that I have always been extremely critical of them and especially what they did to the Rainbow Warrior. They are as arrogant as the Iraelis.
''what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....''
I know not of this event.....I'll have to look it up....but please......don't mention the Japanese.......some of us have long memories.....about certain 20th century events.
''I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit....''
Hmm, methinks you do..deep down.
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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Jerusalem is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims. Most other 'sacred,' places in the ''holy land,'' are held sacred by the same three religions.
Jerusalem and the surrounding land does not belong to anyone religion or to any chosen nation. there is no chosen nation.
The Papal dynasty is just a continuation of the Roman Emperors. The Roman Empire didn't die.....it judt became politically expedient, to adopt Christianity as the Empire's religion and go on from there.
if it wasn't right for the white man to take land from the native American, then it was not right to force an artificially created state upon the Middle East and drive palestinians from their homelands.....land sacred to them.
If this would bring peace to the area isn't it worth the the effort?Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Jersualem is a Holy city of other faiths not just that of the Jews. They could visit just as the muslims visit Mecca in their Haj and Christians visit a church no less Holy because it does not appear in that creation of men, the Bible.
Medina is reputedly the burial site of the Prophet Mohammed. But then everybody has to die somewhere. The name is diminished in that it is used elsewhere. From Wiki.
A medina quarter (Arabic: المدينة القديمة) is a distinct city section found in many North African cities. The medina is typically walled, contains many narrow and maze-like streets, and was built by Arabs as far back as the 9th century CE. The word "medina" (or Médina) (Arabic: مدينة, madīna) itself simply means "city" or "town" in modern day Arabic.
The Pope is in fact a visitor and not indigenous to the Vatican. Why should it be located in Italy? Headquarters have been moved time and again. Rome moved its headquarters to Contstantinople, The USA moved from Philadelphia to Washington DC, in England it was Salisbury to London. The list is almost endless. The new faiths, commercial companies, do the very same thing at the drop of a hat
"....For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to..." etc
Precisley! This describes the indigenous Arabs correctly whereas the Israelis are largely immigrants in the short term.
The Israelis and theor goofs are the both the problem and the answer in this area. Relocating them could be done in the same way that they visited themselves upon the land they now occupy and that is by lure. Where should they by lured to but the very nation which promoted them to begin with i.e. the USA. In the USA they would be loved and accepted with mutual admiration and there is vast space.
As for Osama disguising himself as the President of the USA - brilliant move. Who would believe it? THe very similar anme would allow small lapses in concentration.
.
Sheesh and Sheesh again!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Oh....pleeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssseeeQuote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Well saidQuote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly