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Bull!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
I live in the real world....where we seem to see a very different view of the world than you do over the other side of the pond. the world has been dealing with the existence of the State of Israel since it's creation in 1948.
It's caused nothing but problems, in the Middle East.
Not a pacifist Christian, are you. You know, Fran was right. You talk a loada twaddle.
What a good idea.....Egypt to open the border.....but would the Palestinians want anything, in the way of aid, from Israel's greatest supporter.....the USA? of course the USA is not the only country in the world, nor the most important, when it comes to handing out aid. I think the other countries of the world, would manage quite well, on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by richarddennis
''Iran fk'n publicly stated they want to REMOVE Israel from the map. What do you think they are going to use nuclear weapons for? Also, Iran does not allow the UN to to random checks of their nuclear facilities. All checkups must be on Iran's terms & schedule. Their is proof that Iran has moved their nukes from 1 area to another so when the UN checks area 1 they find nothing there. ''
Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.
''Why is it ok for Israel to have nukes? Because its proven they are not using their nukes against other countries. If you think differently then Iran would have nuked years ago.''
That makes no sense at all. I like the logic...it's Ok for the Israelis to have nuclear weapons (not nukes...please), because they haven't used them against anyone. Well...apart from WWII, none of the other nuclear countries have. So that shoots that theory in the groin.
''I can't believe you are siding with Iran. Its unbelievable. Hey, Im not in favor of what happened with the convey either but to be in favor of Iran is just wrong..''
Did I say I was siding with Iran...did I? I don't think I did. Most certainly not. But if the debate...or discussion requires it....I'll argue in their favour....and I quite like arguing...it's the Yorkshire blood.
''Do not bring up Hussain and weapons of mass destruction. We all know Bush Jr was doing this as a way to fight his fathers battle which has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.''
I'll bring up what I like, Sir. God, how I hate men, telling me what to do. I'll regurgitate every fact, idea, view, snippet of history, religious wrong doing...anything...if I see fit.
When it comes to young Dubya's invasion along with his allies...Gung Ho Blair (not a poodle....he'd run rings around Bush, anytime...Oxford educated barrister, don't you know), of an evil, yet still sovereign nation. I remember reading that Bush senior was reported to have told his son, that for the war to be succeeful, the allies would need to have the support and co-operation, of the muslim countries, in the area. Hmmmm!!!!
''by the way how does states / countries get to be states or countries? Its by war or money. Most of the US states were actually created by who paid the most money (example: The Louisiana Purchase)...''
Well, now you're just being too obvious and a little silly. What is happening in the world today is affected by what started kicking off thousands of years ago, with wars, peace, states coming together, civilisations rising and falling, more war, then religion, exploration, colonising, war, Empire.......it all has a knock on effect.
No, LDD, what you said, was shameful, shameful in the extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
if you do not like it, tough !!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
the activists had no reason to be armed with weapons if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational aid mission.....
the activists had no reason to attack or offer resistance to the israeli commandos, if they were on a peaceful and non confrontational mission
the activists were offered a peaceful option of going to ashdod port and unloading the ships so that all of the aid and non weapon supplies could be delivered and chose not to
but if you really wanna get down and dirty....
what about the french commandos that sank the greenpeace ship, the rainbow warrior in nz, to stop the activists constantly placing lives at risk.....
what about the court case of pete bethune and his crones that were deliberately attacking japanese boats with butyric acid ( they actually hit a sailor in the face with it ) and attempted to foul ships propellers with nets which would have left the ships stranded at the mercy of the weather and placing humans at risk....
the japanese ended up sinking their boat in the end.....
I will say it again.... I have no issue with peaceful, pro active protest, I have issues with idiots that place human lives at risk with their actions, then play the victim when it turns to shit.....
You know what I picked you up on Duckie.. don't try and side track me with waffle from the despicable thing you said.. the facts of just what happened are disputed and you know it..that you have accepted Israel's side of it is your affair.. I am not taking issue with that or your views on the difference between humanitarians and activists because I dont have the time.. but I do take issue with the casual, heartless, bastardly way in which you talk about killing human beings.... that is unnacceptable and inhumane.. whatever you think of what they are and what they have done..Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
From the Guardian Newspaper article indicated by Canticle.
".......In a hastily arranged press conference in central Londonshortly after his Turkish airlines plane touched down at Heathrow, Ismail Patel, the 47-year-old chairman of the Friends of al-Aqsa, condemned what he called "the cold-blooded murder and killing of our colleagues". He said: "These deaths were avoidable and I lay the blame squarely with the Israelis."
Israel has previously said its troops had been left with no choice after they came under attack from activists armed with knives and iron bars when they were dropped by helicopter on to the ship.
Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.
After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.
Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them.
"Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped," she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. "We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence."
Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.
"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."
The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said, adding she was pleased her colleagues on the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel, were continuing to Gaza this weekend............"
Of course - everybody is lying except the Israelis
Also heartening is the USA declaration that Israel must modify its behaviour as the present stance on Gaza was untenable.
One thing.. the argument is with the state of Israel, its government and its institutions.. like with many you confuse that with a general distaste for the a race.. racism of any colour is ugly... yet you and people like you are quite happy to support a racist state.. and for one to lecture us about anti semitism when they themselves continually harangue us with anti-arab sentiment is somewhat laughable.. think on this Pasa.. just how many Jews are actually semetic who live outside of Israel? .. and just how many are semetic inside the country?? Don't you dare lecture me about racism...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Oh come on now! Isn't make up sex better?Quote:
Originally Posted by nakedheathen
Pasa you live in a country (USA) where the size of the ranches is bigger than some countries in the world. How about relocating Israel into the bosom of their loving friends? The Israelis could then help you anihilate the Mexican problem (NB NOT Mexicans).
I hear that New York is already one such place where Israel has a colony. There's always more room to be found where there is a will. Perhaps there?
Problem solved. The CIA and Mossad can teach each other new tricks. The Palestinians can get on with their lives, the Israelis will be out of harms way and one potential spark point in nuclear disaster will be eliminated.
.
Gee Heph what a lovely thought, let's just pulll all those Israelites away from their Holy City, Jerusalem. While we are at it let's kick the Pope out of the Vatican and the Muslims out of Mecca and Medina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
For some a village is the people and can be relocated without harm to anyone, but for the people of the village the land is their home. They tend it, they rely on it and it has a history they are connected to, for some they even draw their power from their land and have done for generations (Pagans) and for others they have no intention of being forceably relocated. But then history is full of forceful relocations and they turned out so well, yeah the Native Americans in the US had their entire way of life terminated and "civilized" to satisfy assholes who wanted their land.
I just can't wait for the rumors to start flying again that Obama should be Osama or that he's Muslim.
I am cold and heartless cos I am a ex soldier.... I have seen another side to people that the average person doesn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
I am cold and heartless cos I have done counselling and therapy work and seen just how two faced people are
I am cold and heartless cos I have sat in this site and watched people talk about fighting for rights and activism has a side effect, its called collateral damage and tell me I am wrong for my stance on peaceful protest.... then watched people scream about collateral damage when people get killed
the simple fact of the matter is I am not taking any countries side.... I am actually pointing out the double standards of activists and how when they are the victims of their own actions, they refuse to take responsibility, yet they are always holding other people responsible for other peoples actions.....
the simple fact of the matter is activists boarded a convoy with the intention of creating a issue, and what a issue they created......
but are they saying collateral damage ??? hell no.... they are screaming bloody murder cos its their own asses that got handed to them, not some innocent party....( bit like the prom threads when it was fine that all the students lost their prom but that was fine.... but when constance never got her prom the way she wanted....all hell broke loose )....
now I will explain something
yes I will put all the activists on a ship and sink it.......
the reason is simple and clear..... if they wanna place lives at risk, fine,....I will help them do it..... but I am more than happy to keep them away from innocent people that have no intention of risking life and limb in the name of a peaceful cause
now people see that as shameful and inhumane...... I see it as risk reduction
I reckon that I would have about mmm maybe 10-12 people of the original hundreds on the convoy, on the ship I am going to sink.... cos the rest of the people have enuf brains to know when to speak up and when to shut up
when you have activists like rachel corrie that stand in front of heavy moving machinery, they are a risk to themselves and a danger to others.... and there is a reason why they have warnings about standing in front of heavy moving machinery...... I know what its like, I used to operate heavy moving machinery and I would not like to have on going nightmares cos some stupid person stood in front of my bulldozer and got crushed......
now if anybody wants to still think that my comment is not acceptable, yet the actions of the people on the convoy attacking trained soldiers or standing in front of heavy moving machinery, is a sign of intelligence......... how do you think about going to sea....????
Sure, Israel thinks it deserves the 1967 lands. Keep them, keep them all.. every single inch of the land. However, there are people living there. I wonder, why aren't they citizens? Why is Israel petrified of the one state solution.
You can't have it both ways, you either want the land with the people on it. Or you don't. Stop with the hypocrisy. We live today, 2010, where a Palestinian child born in the same land as an Israeli can die of malnourishment whereas the Israeli lives like any first world country. Tell me what crime did this child do? An Israeli settlement on one of the hilltops in the westbank has 10 times the water resources than palestinian towns and villages down in the valley. They have swimming pools for their kids while the farmers are denied enough water for their farms.
Under what logic is this a democracy that protects human rights??
HI Twyla,
I did not mean to belittle your research abilities and so on. But you are 150% aligned with the official Israeli narrative of the story (even Israelis that I talk to don't see things this way). There are two sides to each story and possibly more. Yes Arab armies attacked Israel 60 years ago on its inception. But how about the ordinary people, those that became refugees, those that lost their homes, were separated from their families and were refused to be let back? Many of their villages still lay deserted in Israel. Western countries (including Canada may I say) paying money to Israel to build parks over these villages to erase their memory.
Whatever this history is, there are kids being born today in the West Bank and Gaza. What is their crime? Why are they denied basic human rights? Why are they denied medicine? food? education? Why are the born to the sound of sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets flighing so low over crowded cities? Why are there so many cases of trauma in Palestinian kids?
Let's forget about Palestinians. I am sure they are less than human beings and don't deserve equal human rights. I am curious, how would you explain this: http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news...-ramallah.html
Wouldn't an american deserve better treatment?
Interesting you say this. How about the Palestinians that were "relocated" even though they never wanted to leave?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Funny no one has mentioned the news out of Egypt where their high court ruled that citizenship will be revoked for any Egyptian male who marries an Israeli bride. It has nothing to do with the recent conflict, it's been an ongoing debate for awhile there. They view the marriage as being done by a traitor, so for loving an Israeli woman an Egyptian man will lose his citizenship and be called a traitor. They simply don't want the Arab blood tainted with Jewish blood and raising children not loyal to Egypt. Lovely people those Arabs eh?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10247437.stm
Gee, there is a little matter of the fact they lost the war. And they weren't forceably relocated they chose to leave. Over 700k Arabs left, and 600k Jews came in from neighboring countries. PQuote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
All the countries in the Middle east have their problems, and I agree this is disgusting. It's still no excuse for Israeli actions. Remember the Egyptian president calls the Israeli one to congratulate him on Israeli holidays. Maybe one day there will be peace. I just hope it won't be by extermination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
I do as well, problem is that is what the Arabs want extermination of the Jews. The Jews would happily have peace but you have hundreds of thousands suffering because of the leadership of a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
Chose to leave?
So by this logic, if people chose to leave after Katrina, and someone else took over their homes, they wouldn't be allow to go back.. Gee.. they lost the war yes.. but under all circumstance they have the right to go back.
I wonder if you replace the word Israel with say Iran/North Korea, and Palestinian with a random other minority in that country how that would sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Since you posted your mail here, I'll post my response.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
First, don't debate with me privately. If you have to something to say, post in in the thread for all to see. Second, American, Palestinian or Martian makes no difference, activists take the risks they choose.
Ever think they can go back if they abide by the guidelines Israel sets forth? No, you have activists who bring in not humanitarian aid, but aid for terrorists and all disguised under the heading of "gaza relief". Pasa said it best, until Gaza stops firing rockets into Israel then Israel has the right to inspect anything entering.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
And as for Katrina??? How the fuck do you dare compare a natural disaster with something that was caused by the people suffering now?
Twyla,
Being an Arab I tell you that is not true. I know my people and I know the we are an emotional bunch, we get angry, we yell, we scream, but that's as far as we go. In Jordan and Egypt there are Israeli tourists going there. Palestinians in the Westbank (and previously from Gaza) work with Israelis often. The fanatics you are talking about exist on both sides and they are still a minority.
After all, people are people regardless of race, colour, religion, sexual orientation etc. We all want the same basic things: food, shelter, health, education, a hope for a great future for our kids.
I do remember stories my grandfather used to tell about him dating Jewish women in Jerusalem and how they used to live side by side and mix normally like any other place. I wish that they created a state on all of that land for all its people. A secular democratic state where every person is equal regardless of their race, religion, color, etc. Unfortunately the decision was made to create a state for jews only. By definition a state that is only for a single religion is not an equal state. Such a state grants more rights to a jewish kid born in New York that has never stepped foot in that land, than a Palestinian kid born on that land and whose grandparents lived on this land.
We live in a depressing world dont' we.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
It's an analogy. Hits a nerve doesn't it. I guess you do think Americans are worth more than Palestinians.
Btw, terrorists are a tiny minority. There are many ordinary people living in Gaza.
And btw, Israel in the past has considered it its right to attack any country imposing a blockade on it. Did someone change the rules suddenly? Wouldn't the logic apply to Gaza.
HUGE DISCLAIMER: I am NOT a supporter of violent resistance. Just pointing out a flaw in the logic used
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Really? Then tell that to all the documented speeches of leaders in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan. Since they are ones calling for extermination of the Jewish nation.
Egypt, Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, so you got that completely off.
Palestinian leaders are in negotiation with Israel so this one is also wrong.
Syria and Iraq are part of the Arab league and they are part of the Pan-Arab peace offer to Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
Plus, there is no such country as Palestine, it does not exist at the moment. All palestinian territories are occupied.
Btw... if Arabs are such monsters I wonder how there are bus loads of tourists entering Jordan everyday from Israel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
I said documented speeches as in anyone who has called for Jihad or extermination of the Jewish nation. Right now the loudest screaming is Iran and they want nuclear weapons to blow Israel off the map, never mind the people in Gaza that might not survive the blow and definitely wouldn't survive the radiation. Or any of the other close Arab countries that will suffer should Iran send a nuclear bomb into Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
So how about you take a look at a few things...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=11583
http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyah...calls-1.284045
The world changes e.g. The IRA signed a peace treaty in Ireland.
At present, Israel has an unprecedented peace offer from the Arab world. It chooses to ignore it.
And btw, the only state in the middle east to hold nuclear weapons is Israel itself.
The second URL you posted doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Analogies are generally comparative. Comparing a natural disaster to losing a war is seriously flawed if that is your idea of analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
My analogy is that people run away from war, natural disaster, etc. until things settle down.
In both cases people did run away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
What you stated with your analogy was not what you just said. There is no comparison to running away (If enough notice is given) from a natural disaster and running from a war. Losing a war leaves you with your home occupied by the victors and suffering a natural disaster leaves you with a mess to clean up when it's over.
You continue to say that not all the people of Gaza are terrorists, I never said all the people there are. But apparently enough of them are there that they have a steady supply of rockets to fire into Israel. That is why Israel has the right to inspect the "aid" that is coming in and reject anything that could be used for insurgence. They have no problem letting in food, blankets, medicine and clothing, they have a problem with the idea that they should allow a ship to just sail into that port and offload whatever. Put yourself in their shoes for one moment, your next door neighbor is barricaded by you from the rest of world because of his threat to kill you. You inspect any aid going in but you would not allow a gun and ammo or the means to make a bomb to go in now would you? If you would, then you are a bigger fool than the fool who threatens to wipe out a nation in the name of religion.
Works fine for me me but I'll post the article it links toQuote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday called on the world "to confront Iran's exterminatory intentions and act resolutely to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons."
Netanyahu spoke at the state ceremony on the eve of the Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Day at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.
"The historic failure of free societies to confront the Nazi beast was that they did not face it in time," Netanyahu said. "And today we are witness to the old hatred of Jews once again, fueled by extremist Islamic authorities, led by Iran and its satellites."
"Iran's leadership is racing to develop nuclear weapons and declares its intention to destroy Israel. The world is gradually accepting Iran's exterminatory declarations regarding Israel and still we do not see the international determination required to stop the arming of Iran. But if we learned something from the Holocaust, it is that we cannot remain quiet or flinch in the face of evil."
Earlier in the ceremony, President Shimon Peres said the world must not repeat its indifference at the face of new cries for the destruction of the Jewish people.
Peres went on to say that "Israel will never forget the two decrees which the Holocaust enforced."
"The firm demand to sustain an independent Jewish state, one that holds its security in its own hands while at the same time tirelessly seeking peace as well as the demand to treat threats of annihilation, Holocaust denials, and terror mongering with the utmost severity."
Referring to comments made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has threatened to "wipe the Zionist regime off the map," Peres said that it was Israel's right "and duty to demand the nations of the worlds never to repeat their indifference, one which cost millions of lives, including their own."
"The ears of the United Nations must be attuned to the threats of annihilation made by one member of the UN against another. Otherwise, the foundation which holds the UN charter will collapse," Peres said.
Referring to efforts to make the Middle East a nuclear-free zone, the president said that "in order to reach clean skies in the Middle East we must first dismantle the threats of annihilation."
"Weapons of mass destruction in hands capable of destroying masses accompanied by voices calling for such destruction are the combination most perilous to world peace. They turn the world into an uncontrollable place," Peres said.
The President added that he believed that some "parts of the Iranian people are themselves ashamed of the tyranny which has taken hold of it," adding that he thought the Arab states were "aware that Ahmadinejad's anti-Israel incitement is meant to disguise his real aim, which is establishing Iran as a regional power."
"The [Second] World War broke with the Nazis' devilish incitement, claiming that they were a supreme race and Deutschland Uber Alles. We must never return to the beastly conception according to which there is such a thing as a supreme man, or supreme regime, or supreme race which can do whatever it sees fit," Peres said.
Earlier in his speech, President Peres said that with night falling on all of Israel, evening had also fallen "not long ago on Antopol, Zhoromin, Rodnik and Mikhalova, towns that three quarters of their population was was wiped out. Not a single Jew is left."
"Night has fallen on the village of Tostanovitza, where 2,803 Jews were murdered, on Libau in Latvia, where 7,101 Jews were murdered, on Khelm by Lublin from which 15,000 Jews were sent to their death," Peres said, adding that "darkness has also started covering the shadows of Dachau, Auschwitz and Birkenau, as well as Vishnive, where I was born and visited again as an Israeli minister, with not even one wooden beam left from the Jewish homes and the synagogue."
Recalling the trip to his childhood town, Peres said he "visited the well that stood in our backyard. The water did not burn. I drew the bucket to taste the wasters of my childhood, and the water burned in my mouth, the taste of the fire which destroyed the town's people, my family, who remained there."
"This night spread like a mourner's hut on the thousands of communities whose existence became a petrified tombstone, whose people and culture burned to ashes."
A sundown covering the devastated synagogues and shuls, theaters and cultural institutions, the books that were set alight, the schools that turned to ashes. All erased, the lives, the houses, the culture, a world's smoky embers."
"That fire will continue to burn within us, as an impossible farewell to our six million brothers, men, women, and elderly people, to a million and a half of our children, an immense potential of life and talent that was annihilated, an unreturnable loss."
"He who passes today through the town of Zivorov in the Ukraine cannot know that in that place, one summer day in the beginning of 1941, a thousand Jews were shot to death and buried in two pits in the town."
"He who passes today cannot hear the cry of April 9, 1943, when 2,300 Jews were forced to dig their own graves near the Sokolinaya gymnasium. They were murdered and thrown into the pits they dug with their own hands."
"'What shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion?'" asks the Book of Lamentations, and asked the survivors of the ramps in Treblinka, Auschwitz and Birkenau, and asked those who arrived in Israel and immediately enlisted to the defense of the people in their fight for independence."
Also referring to the defense of the Jewish people in light of the lessons learned by the Holocaust, Israel Defense Forces chief Gabi Ashkenazi said earlier Sunday that never again would the Jewish people lack the means to defend themselves.
Speaking at the Yad Vashem memorial, Ashkenazi said the Jewish people "will never again be dependent on the benevolence of others," Ashkenazi said. "Never again will Jewish children be fearful or begging for mercy. Never again will an advocate of evil be able to dictate the future of the Jewish people."
"In the name of my father and his family who fought for a sovereign and independent state and in the name of the millions who were unable to witness the realization of their dream, I stand here today as the commander of the Hebrew defense force, the Israel Defense Forces."
Ashkenazi talked about the experiences of his father, a Holocaust survivor from the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv.
"On the night of March 9th, 1943, my father's family opened their door to find Bulgarian police ordering them to prepare to be deported from Bulgaria within a few hours," Ashkenazi said. "Along with 6,000 other Jews, my father assembled in the yard of the school and recited the prayer 'Shema Yisrael.' In the end, my father and the Jews of Plovdiv were not sent to the death camps. The cancellation of their deportation order arrived when they were already at the train station, a short time before they were supposed to depart.
hardnbubbly
Thank you for posting to this thread. I think that it is very important that we read the thoughts of those of an Arab background. In North America we too frequently hear more about a pro Israel perspective. In Canada, we have a very pro Israel PM. What are your thoughts about why North America hears more pro Israel thoughts in our media than pro Palestine?
Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards are ready to provide a military escort to cargo ships trying to break Israel’s blockade of Gaza, a representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday.
hmm ...interesting. Time will tell if any of these groups accept the offer.
It's hard to say, maybe its because the Arab world is ruled by puppet regimes that do not answer to their people but to the (super)powers that keep in them in place.
When the western world claims they are putting a democracy in place what the people see is bombs falling on their heads and corrupt governments that do not represent their needs. When convenient they prop up a dictator (e.g. Saddam Hussain) and when it stops being convenient they destroy the country. Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon have seen it all as well. Lebanon was supposed to be getting a "democratic" pro-western government, how was it rewarded? By Israel bomb the hell out of it. Bombing the infrastructure, bombing everything.
Anyway, what I am trying to say, we have governments that do not represent us in the middle east. Our voice is not heard. However, I think the internet is slowly changing that. At least for the internet connected world.
The other reason is that many of the zionist jews who moved into Israel/Palestine did so from Europe and North America. They spoke the same languages and understood the intricacies of western culture. For Arabs, it is still a foreign culture.
It is also hard to underestimate the effect of an organized PR campaign coming from a sovereign state as opposed to the scattered unorganized message you get from groups supporting Palestinian human rights.
Also, there is quite a bit of media owned by Zionist Jews (I make the distinction since not all Jewish people support the actions of the government of Israel) and media affects a society's perception of reality.
Probably the last reason is strategic political coming from the Cold War days, the U.S. government decided that Israel is probably the best counter balance to the soviet influence. I can only imagine that they had to sell this to the American people one way or another, and probably started the whole Israel is a beacon of democracy vs the savage Arabs argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Personally, Tenni, I think any of the groups that do so are foolish. That would just be the catalyst to start a complete Middle Eastern war with the intention of wiping out Israel, one of Iran's main goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Dont know where u got that from..they were forced out or left for fear of their lives.. funny how history seems to read differently from country to country..:( ...and it has been going on since the inception of Israel.. it would have occurred whether or not a warr had happened, maybe a little slower initially but Israel's intention was and remains Israel for the Jews... no one else gets a look in..not Christian, Buddhist, Hindu and certainly not Arab..Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Would you listen to yourself Twyla.. what do u think Israel has been doing for the last 60 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Yea... right... and piggies fly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong