Gaza Aid Convoy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

Who was it lost lives in an this of piracy? Who is costing lives in an illegal blockade? If, just as an example, North Korean commandos tried the same thing in similar circumstances by boarding an American ship you would condemn the ships crew then as you condemn the crew of the relief ship now.. and you would applaud North Korea for its bravado in stopping the convoy???

..and never lecture me about disregard of human life, Sunny Jim.. it isnt me that supports a racist state which disregards just about any international convention it chooses and slaughters human beings with impunity.. yes Israelis are human.. so are Palestinians..

---

Well said, Fran.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Yes the "peace" activists were the ones dying. They decided to attack the IDF members, often before they had even detached from the rope. You should be happy only 9 died.

Since Israel controls the border Gaza, they can blockade it. Legally. When Gaza no longer has weapons to fire at Israel, and when Syria, Jordan, and Iran no longer are supplying them with RPGs and automatic weapons, the blockade will end. And, since they can't have weapons shipped in with "relief supplies"...

The flotilla was warned. Repeatedly. They were also given the opportunity to have the "relief supplies" delivered in (after a thorough inspection, of course). The flotilla refused.

The rest of your post was hard to tell who you were accusing of what, so..*shrug*

Pasa

---

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........piffle!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamieknyc

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.

---

You're rather obscure in your postings.....aren't you!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gina7777

But ... the fact remains this incident took place in international, not Israeli, waters. So the Israelis had no right to do what they did.

And surely it makes sense that the Israelis couldn't be trusted to pass supplies on to Gaza when they are clearly hostile?

---

Well said, Gina. I guess things which are obvious, to the rest of the world, just elude the USA.

1) The term Palestinian in 1918 it simply means an inhabitant of what was termed at the time 'Palestine', Some of the inhabitants of The Palestine were of the Jewish faith and some were not. The British did not move Arab peoples around as suggested. In fact, the Jewish population was the one that was growing incessantly in the region through immigration from the end of WWI (not WWII).


As The Palestine began to be subdivided, the Zionists continued to make themselves felt in the intention to take territory exclusively for Jews. secular unrest occurred. The British resisted the armed Zionist fighters (They would have been termed terrorists then) in their attempt to take over land to form an exclusive Jewish State. Britain aquiesced to the idea of a separate Jewish state

"... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country...."

Meanwhile, Jewish immigration pressure continued and holding areas in other lands were used to delay the effect. Eventually Israel was created. It continues to exert a Jewish demand for more land through its selective population pressure.


2) To attach responsibility to an entire nation for the activities of a band of its citizens invovled in personal initiative is just daft. So Turkey as a nation is not responsible for anything that happened.

Turkey may well assume responsibility in any subsequent venture but that is another story and it will not change anything that has happened so far - Israel should not have boarded the boats in international waters.

Who boarded the boats? Israeli Soldiers boarded the boats. Now we all know that soldiers, conscripts or otherwise, join the ARMED forces just to tour the world and have exciting holidays. There was absolutley no expectation that these soldiers who were members of the ARMED forces were armed in any way. So defending oneself against such soldiers was entirely unsporting of the people in the boats. Then magically these unarmed soldiers produced guns and shot people dead.


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hephaestion

1) The term Palestinian in 1918 it simply means an inhabitant of what was termed at the time 'Palestine', Some of the inhabitants of The Palestine were of the Jewish faith and some were not. The British did not move Arab peoples around as suggested. In fact, the Jewish population was the one that was growing incessantly in the region through immigration from the end of WWI (not WWII).


As The Palestine began to be subdivided, the Zionists continued to make themselves felt in the intention to take territory exclusively for Jews. secular unrest occurred. The British resisted the armed Zionist fighters (They would have been termed terrorists then) in their attempt to take over land to form an exclusive Jewish State. Britain aquiesced to the idea of a separate Jewish state

"... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country...."

Meanwhile, Jewish immigration pressure continued and holding areas in other lands were used to delay the effect. Eventually Israel was created. It continues to exert a Jewish demand for more land through its selective population pressure.


2) To attach responsibility to an entire nation for the activities of a band of its citizens invovled in personal initiative is just daft. So Turkey as a nation is not responsible for anything that happened.

Turkey may well assume responsibility in any subsequent venture but that is another story and it will not change anything that has happened so far - Israel should not have boarded the boats in international waters.

Who boarded the boats? Israeli Soldiers boarded the boats. Now we all know that soldiers, conscripts or otherwise, join the ARMED forces just to tour the world and have exciting holidays. There was absolutley no expectation that these soldiers who were members of the ARMED forces were armed in any way. So defending oneself against such soldiers was entirely unsporting of the people in the boats. Then magically these unarmed soldiers produced guns and shot people dead.


.

---

Thank you Heph

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jamieknyc

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.

---

This is absolute rubbish Jamie.. a Palestinian meant a native of Palestine.... if u want a shitty population movement to to swamp another.. any Jew anywhere may become an Israeli citizen and qualify for residency.. no one else has anything remotely like that right.. and several million have taken up that offer from just about everywhere.. Asia, Europe, the Americas and Africa.. with Palestinian arabs being shunted out of the place in droves and those born in the coutry who are arabs who were driven out have no right of return..... those that stay are discriminated against, abused and treated as scum by the state of Israel. Israel is simply a racist state.. Israel is not quite Nazi Germany.. but it certainly learned a trick or two from it..

Sure they did, Fran.... did they borrow the ovens too? Really this is getting beyond a joke they are not racists. Racism is based on race, Jews are Jews due to religion. They are a Jewish nation as promised when it was first set up in 1948. All they have done since inception is defend themselves against the Arabs who want to destroy them. Over and over again they have been attacked and they have not only repelled they also took parts of the offenders territory. Hence the whole issue with the Gaza Strip. There are Muslims in this world that have called for a Jihad on Israel. Not because the nation did anything wrong but because they are Jews. Yet there is listed on the Israeli tourist site information about Israeli Muslims, who live and practice in Israel without fear of reprisals from Jewish neighbors. So yeah they learned a thing or two from the Nazis, they learned what hate does to a nation and they are reaching for peace to their Arab neighbors only to be rejected again and again. I feel for them greatly. They were dropped in the middle of Arabs and were probably not expected to survive let alone thrive.

Religion or race, to treat other people as they do and as a state to treat their own citizens of one race as they do is racism.. don't make excuses for it, Twyla.. as many seem quite happy to do.. I do not tar every Israeli Jew with the same brush, because thankfully a large proportion of the Jewish population share the distaste for what the state does as I do, as indeed do many Jewish people outside of Israel a few of which I know personally, but the Israeli state is a racist state.. Israel's own human rights organisation accepts that.. but of course they are activists and therefore terrorists and to be safely ignored as nuts... any state which acts as it does internally (and externally for that matter) can never avoid that accusation... I doubt that in 1948 the UN would have sanctioned the creation of Israel had it known just how it would treat arabs.. it certainly would not now..

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.

---

I'm not blind to the history Twyla and I no more approve of any attempts to crush Israel than do you.. but no I do not believe we read or see the same news.. the British media, and that of other European countries are not those of the US.. I hate and condemn war and violence from wherever it comes, but I understand what desperation can do to people when they have been dispossessed.. that both sides have to get out of this cycle of violence and talk to each other and settle things is beyond doubt.. with every rocket into Israel and every Israeli incursion into Gaza, and incidents such as this, it is becoming ever more difficult for the two sides to find common ground..

..and Israel doesn't main and destroy women and children for sport..but its military apparently does in its name.. in Europe at least we have seen the pictures on TV of just that.. every bit and more compelling than anything shown of the raid on the convoy.. and let me turn it around... what did the soldiers think the crew and others on board would do when they attached the ship? There are no rose coloured specs here Twyla.. only a sad and heart breaking acknowledgement of a nasty reality..

"Sometimes, I am convinced that there has to be strange brainwashing chemical ingredients placed in the drinking water of the USA. Then I realize that brainwashing some US people is easy to do and you don't need to drug them."

I'm just saying ... not all of us are the mindless sheep you elucidate of.

That said beyond votes that can be bought, stolen, what can we do? If we rise up in aggression it defeats the purpose of doing it peacefully. If we remain silent in bitter dissent, it denotes our compliance even against our will. So, either way we're f****ed over a barrel without a reach around or lube.

Personally, I recall a billboard we have on Route 11 nearing New Market, VA.. The sign reads "If one is oppressed, all are. Where oppression exists, freedom does not." This displays in large red letters. There is no mistake in words. Could it be an incitement? Possibly.

For me it sets a tone of thought, an idea. "Hey, that's what America was founded upon. Wouldn't it be great to get back to that?" Look around, so many unemployed, without health care, afraid of the patrolling 1st battalion of the army on our soil, a new fungus created in an army bases in Maryland that destroys poppies ... (sigh) ... all this damn shit weighing us all down.

"Ehhh ... Fuck the Bozos!"


I'm tired of existing merely to exist. There's more to life than that. Tired of fighting, been fighting in one way or another all 38 years of my life. Keep getting sunshine blown up my ass, "hang on honey, it's worth 'the good fight'." Fuck the 'good fight', there never has been one, really. I should not need to fight in order to have joy, to just be able to walk across a street.

I don't care about names, nations, religions, classes ... fuck you all. Let's stop the fight. I mean c'mon we're all human, let's have joy in that, joy in our differences. Difference only serves to better us. But nah, everybody gots to kill the different one. Fuck it.

I've a new favorite quote. "Quicksand got no sense of humor, I'm still laughing like hell!" You maroons go on with your 'jolly good fight', I'm out.

The issue of the boarding merchant ships in international waters and whether Israel has the right to do this may be of primary importance. When is such a boarding priracy and when is it acceptable?

It all seems like a big PR game. Reports here are discussing the video footage that has been spammed across the world compared to reports from those who were on the ships. The footage comes from footage that was taken during the attack. All of it has been selectively released by Israel after the soldiers took it from apparently 60 reporters that were on these ships. It has been noted that no footage of the shootings has been released. Is Israel winning the PR game? I would say yes in North America but not so it appears in Europe?

I can not see how Israel had the right to board these ships in international waters though. The US and Canada(grr) seem to be supporting Israel unconditionally and merely quietly raising a eyebrow but only slightly. Under what conditions does a country have the right to board merchant ships in international waters? It seems once again ...if you have the might (gun power) you may.

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.

---

What type of ships were they Twyla? They were not military ships and they were (supposedly) carrying humanitarian aid supplies. Which country is at war with Israel? Turkey is a country where these ships originated and some were under the Turkish flag. Turkey had good relations with Israel and was one of Israel's friends or at least reportedly more friendly than many of Israel's neighbours. Turkey was not at war with Israel. Turkey may declare Israel's actions as a sign of war actions against Turkey. When US ships were invaded in International waters your country was quick to retaliate militarily but did not invade Somalia.

Let's keep with the facts and not supposition. We do not know about any rockets on these ships. I'm sure that if there were rockets that Israel would have produced them by now for the world to see.

btw Where are these ships and the supplies now? I understand that the people refused Israel's offer to deliver the aid because Israel would determine which were humanitarian and which were not(apparently school supplies were not considered humanitarian aid by Israel). Are these ships in an Israeli port?

''Sure they did, Fran.... did they borrow the ovens too?''

This was uncalled for Twyla. No one should forget that 6 million Jews died in WWII, along with Gypsies, Homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled, dissidents who spoke out against Nazism, etc,

''Really this is getting beyond a joke they are not racists.''

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong. Israel is one of the most racist states in the world and Israeli Jews look down upon Arabs. Semites being anti-semitic.

''Racism is based on race, Jews are Jews due to religion.''

Once again, you are incorrect. Jews are not just followers of Judaism (although anyone can become a convert to Judaism, as with any other religion). Being Jewish is also a Jew's race, even if (as probably 100% of Jews have become), there is no connection to the Middle East, other than historically.

Jews, like other nomadic peoples, left their homelands and colonised other parts of the world, marrying those from the local population, So these Jews are what one could called hybrids. They are not the ''pure,'' stock, which left the Middle East. However, they are still Jews and Jewish and many share similar physical charateristics.

Jews are probably the only people of faith, who are not only of the same religion as one another, but also consider themselves a ''people''........and a people, seen in that sense.....is a race.

No matter that they share the same ancestry, way back, as Arabs and others from that part of the world.

It has already been proven, by DNA testing, with remains, from aechaeological digs, that the ancient Jews and the people of Canaan, were one and the same people.

There were Jews in the land ''flowing with milk and honey,'' long before the supposed escape from Egypt.

Jewish people may come from different parts of the world, but they do consider themselves to be a ''people,''....aka a race. No matter if they convert to another religion, they remain Jewish.

My husband's cousin's ex-wife is Jewish. She is a Christian convert, but she is still Jewish. Their daughter would be considered Jewish, for to be considered Jewish, the birth mother is required to be Jewish.

Now, none of that has anything to do with religion. What makes a race?.....Is it a shared religion.....culture....bloodline......heritage etc? If so, then being Jewish is more than a religion. It is a race.

''They are a Jewish nation as promised when it was first set up in 1948. All they have done since inception is defend themselves against the Arabs who want to destroy them. Over and over again they have been attacked and they have not only repelled they also took parts of the offenders territory. Hence the whole issue with the Gaza Strip.''

A state, artificially created. Created to give people from a certain race.......not religion.....a homeland.......Since when does a religion need a homeland?

A state, artificially created and in that creation, driving from the land, thousands of Palestnian Arabs, both Christian and Muslim. Driving them from their homeland. Making many of them live in refugee camps, for decades. How can that ever be justified?

Six million Jews may have died in WWII, but 55 million plus people died, in total. Where is the home land which was created, for others persecuted by the axis forces, who had no true homeland of their own.

If the Western and mainly Christian world, decides that a homeland has to be created for the Jewish Nation, then it is hardly surprising that the surrounding countries, mainly Muslim, should feel a little peeved.

There were Jews in the Middle East, prior to 1948, so to create a State of Israel, was to make the allies feel better about themselves. The feelings of the people native to the area, were not considered. Not in any way.

Israel is not a Middle Eastern country. It is a country populated with Jews brought in from the West and from other parts of the Globe. It's a like a part of Europe or America had been just scooped up and placed in the Middle East.

Therefore, with all the contacts, that this very European heritaged Jewish country, has, it is not surprising that they will have weapons, spot on military training etc etc etc. Israel is a wealthy country and wealth goes a long way, in war and being able to afford the necessary arsenal to be re-stocked and re-stocked.

''There are Muslims in this world that have called for a Jihad on Israel''

This is their right......EVEN if it is wrong. You can't say it's OK for Israel to behave in a certain manner, but not other people, or nations.

''Not because the nation did anything wrong but because they are Jews.''

So Israel does nothing wrong? Invading surrounding areas, especially Lebanon, when IT sees fit. Deciding it has the right to blockade an area. Sending it's secret service people...aka Mossad, to deal with people, and further afield than the Middle East.

Declaring itself the chosen nation, God's own and thinking that all the land in the area belongs to Isarael, by right, and no one else. Funny thing is....way, way back.....during Roman occupation and before and after, Jews shared the land, upon which they lived, with people of other races and religions.

''Yet there is listed on the Israeli tourist site information about Israeli Muslims, who live and practice in Israel without fear of reprisals from Jewish neighbors.''

These people are a minority and I wonder what would happen, if these ''special case'' Israeli Muslims, decided to rebel and become dissidents?

''So yeah they learned a thing or two from the Nazis, they learned what hate does to a nation and they are reaching for peace to their Arab neighbors only to be rejected again and again.''

Israel, the peaceful, free, non-racist, non-war-mongering, wants to live in perpetual blissful relations with it's neighbours, state. I think not. So, Twyla, you truly believe that Israel always wants peace and the Arab, or non-Arab, Muslim countries, of the area, don't? Think again.

''I feel for them greatly. They were dropped in the middle of Arabs and were probably not expected to survive let alone thrive.''

No, Twyla, the surrounding countries, had an artificially created, Jewish State, dropped on THEM. Israel wa expected to succeed, by the West. Israel had the backing of the wealthy Western countries and the input, financially, of monies from the many, very wealthy Jewish organisations, around the Globe.

You should read a history of the Rothschild family and how those original 18th century money lenders, became wealthy bankers, spread out across the world and became so very influential, in the corridors of power.

The West, always knew that Israel would suvvive and prosper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

Religion or race, to treat other people as they do and as a state to treat their own citizens of one race as they do is racism.. don't make excuses for it, Twyla.. as many seem quite happy to do.. I do not tar every Israeli Jew with the same brush, because thankfully a large proportion of the Jewish population share the distaste for what the state does as I do, as indeed do many Jewish people outside of Israel a few of which I know personally, but the Israeli state is a racist state.. Israel's own human rights organisation accepts that.. but of course they are activists and therefore terrorists and to be safely ignored as nuts... any state which acts as it does internally (and externally for that matter) can never avoid that accusation... I doubt that in 1948 the UN would have sanctioned the creation of Israel had it known just how it would treat arabs.. it certainly would not now..

---

Well said

I understand there were some 60 journalists on board as well as some 500 activists, many with vidcams all of which have been confiscated.. if Israel are so confident that the evidence proves their version of events why don't they produce all of it and give it unedited to the UN, the Red Cross and other impartial bodies and let the world see just what those on board the ship saw from the time the Israeli military appeared on the horizon... and why does the Israeli film stop before people started to die?

There are two sides to every story.. one side is allowed to speak but prove no evidence.. the other speak and provide incomplete evidence..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".

They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?

Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.

---

I really do wonder, where people on the other side of the pond get their ''unbiased,'' news reports and history from.

''They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs.''

So if Israel does anything, it's OK...Is that what you are saying. Twyla?

''If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it.''

And the financial and political backing from other countries and jewish organisations and individuals. And the arrogance, to think that what was written about three thousand years ago, gives the artificially created state of Israel, the god given right to the land.

Go back to the stories of King David and how the nation, which even then called itself Israel, declared war on nearly every other tribal people, just so that they could have the land, which God had promised to them. Not that there is any concrete historical evidence, for the existence of such a King, but most legends are based upon some true facts.

''Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it.''

Sighs.

''Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive.''

Really? How can you be so sure? Is this what your news reports have told you? Israel does not like having dissidents, of any sort. Look up Mordechai Vanunu. He was treated so well, by his own race!!!!

''Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some.''

Ohhh and don't we know it!!!......So if Irael does this...it's OK.....but not if one is an Arab, or non Arab, Muslim or Christian people??? What Israel wnats to do, any time, any place, is OK....is it???

''What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?''

I reckon a lot of scared people, knew exactly how the Israeli forces, were likely to behave and that fear, made them arm themselves.

There were old and young on those boats, people from many countries, a Holocaust survivor, journalists. But that's OK, they must have been anti-israel, so I guess that you would say, that they got what what they deserved. Sheesh!

I don't think Fran has been wearing rose-tinted glasses, but i do think that a lot of people across the pond, wear blindfolds and believe what they are spoon fed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

The issue of the boarding merchant ships in international waters and whether Israel has the right to do this may be of primary importance. When is such a boarding priracy and when is it acceptable?

It all seems like a big PR game. Reports here are discussing the video footage that has been spammed across the world compared to reports from those who were on the ships. The footage comes from footage that was taken during the attack. All of it has been selectively released by Israel after the soldiers took it from apparently 60 reporters that were on these ships. It has been noted that no footage of the shootings has been released. Is Israel winning the PR game? I would say yes in North America but not so it appears in Europe?

I can not see how Israel had the right to board these ships in international waters though. The US and Canada(grr) seem to be supporting Israel unconditionally and merely quietly raising a eyebrow but only slightly. Under what conditions does a country have the right to board merchant ships in international waters? It seems once again ...if you have the might (gun power) you may.

---

Well said Tenni

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Problem is Tenni, they were not merchant ships. They were ships on their way to break an Israeli blockade of Gaza. That is an act of war and I do not blame Israel one bit for stopping them in international waters, for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range. It wasn't piracy it was prudence.

---

In what way can the Israeli blockade of Gaza be called legal, To blockade the area is an act of wae in itself.

Since when can civilian ships commit an act of war, against a country, if merely wanting to deliver aid to Gaza???

What jurisdiction does Israel have, for boarding vessels, on the high seas, in International waters? Does this mean that the State of israel feels that it has a God given right, to extend it's boders, wherever it sees fit?

And now, Twyla, you are saying ''for all they knew they had rockets on those ships to attack as soon as they were in range.'' How the hell do you come to that conclusion? Is that something being summised by the USA media?

This was piracy, upon the high seas. Israel committed an act of war, not the ''activists,'' as you refer to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

What type of ships were they Twyla? They were not military ships and they were (supposedly) carrying humanitarian aid supplies. Which country is at war with Israel? Turkey is a country where these ships originated and some were under the Turkish flag. Turkey had good relations with Israel and was one of Israel's friends or at least reportedly more friendly than many of Israel's neighbours. Turkey was not at war with Israel. Turkey may declare Israel's actions as a sign of war actions against Turkey. When US ships were invaded in International waters your country was quick to retaliate militarily but did not invade Somalia.

Let's keep with the facts and not supposition. We do not know about any rockets on these ships. I'm sure that if there were rockets that Israel would have produced them by now for the world to see.

btw Where are these ships and the supplies now? I understand that the people refused Israel's offer to deliver the aid because Israel would determine which were humanitarian and which were not(apparently school supplies were not considered humanitarian aid by Israel). Are these ships in an Israeli port?

---

Again...well said, tenni

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

I understand there were some 60 journalists on board as well as some 500 activists, many with vidcams all of which have been confiscated.. if Israel are so confident that the evidence proves their version of events why don't they produce all of it and give it unedited to the UN, the Red Cross and other impartial bodies and let the world see just what those on board the ship saw from the time the Israeli military appeared on the horizon... and why does the Israeli film stop before people started to die?

There are two sides to every story.. one side is allowed to speak but prove no evidence.. the other speak and provide incomplete evidence..

---

And that, in itself, speaks volumes, Fran.

I wonder what would happen, if more ships sailed from Turkey, flying a flag bearing the Red Crescent, showing that this was a relief mission and other ships from different destinations, flying flags whish showed the emblem of the Red Cross. Or even some Jewish organisations, critical of the State of Israel, flying flags with the emblem of the Star of David. Would Irael dare to treat such vessels, in the same manner? I wonder?

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

To Tenni:

It was a group of six ships that were told not to break the blockade. They refused to let Israel deliver the portion they would allow. They chose to take the risk and they chose to stand as martyrs to the world. Sorry doesn't fly when they attacked the soldiers even as they were coming down the ropes.

A Dennis Haliday from an Irish "cargo" ship, Rachel Corrie, sailing with Humanitarian aid for Gaza just spoke on CBCnewsworld. He is an Irish citizen and a former UN official under the Secretary General. He answered several questions. He stated that he is hopeful that Israel with rethink how it behaves when the Irish ship that he is on reaches within Gaza's area. He is hopeful that they will let his ship through. In response to whether he thinks that his group would let Israel finish delivering the supplies, he stated that half of the shipment is "good Irish cement" (500 tonnes). He stated that both the activists and the UN determine cement a humanitarian material while Israel does not. He does not believe that half of the shipment would therefore be delivered by Israel.

Mr Haliday believes that the UN has failed the Palestinians for years as far as their homes, water, medical aid etc. To the question as to whether his actions are smart? He laughed and said that is a good question but he is about providing aid. He says that there are no weapons on the Rachel Corrie. They are nervous and anxious but determined. He is determined to respect any Israel military and hopes that they will respect the aid activist tonight (and not kill them). He wants the Israeli Gaza policies changed. They have no cameras with them though to document what may happen. No news agency went with them.

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

We'll have to wait and see what happens, Tenni. But the fact they are sailing with what they know is not considered humanitarian aid to the Israelis makes me wonder just what they hope to prove.

---

Twyla
Thank goodness that you gave me ten minutes to finish (maybe) my editing...lol

One issue is that this cement is Humanitarian aid under the UN definition. Israel is refusing to accept the UN definition of what constitutes materials for humanitarian aid. If a country refuses to accept what the world states is a humanitarian aid material, then I say that the country is wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

---

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

WAR! What is it good for???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

I too know the history Twyla.. I know that Israel was created out of the British mandate and I know that within hours the arabs attempted to crush it.. I know of the wars since, inculding 1956 Suez when your country pressured Britain, France and Israel into withdrawing from the canal after nationaisation, of clashes afterward, of the wars between arab and Israeli.. but we are not talking history.. history should be remembered, but we should not be slave to it.. not when an entire people is suffering because of Israeli intransigence... it is time to put aside old hatreds and to cease this endless circle of hate and war.. few can claim innocence Twyla.. not Hamas, not the UN, not the USA and certainly not Israel.. we are talking the here and now.. I do not see Israellis being prevented from receiving their medical supplies, or having no employment, of being desperate for food and clothing, building supplies and the raw materials required for reconstruction (and here Egypt must take some blame as it will not allow things like cement and scaffolding into Gaza..).

Just as you have your beliefs and opinions then we who support and believe in humanity, not simply Palestinians, or Israeli.. but human beings... will speak as we see and loss of respect from someone I like a great deal and care for is but a small price to pay for being able to do that.. it may well be hopelees and it may be futile, but as one who believes in peace will not keep quite when I see injustice and stupidity...

---

My post wasn't to you, Fran my love. You and I both know where we stand and we still love each other any way. But people who have to multiquote drive me insane and I'm about to hit ignore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gina7777

WAR! What is it good for???

---

Business and making pots of profit....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gina7777

WAR! What is it good for???

---

It was a good song :bigrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

---

It is as good as ours..mind you..it is ours probably...half of the stuff we have is produced, delivered, mixed and used by Irish residents of the UK.. so no cheek.. never cheek from me Tenni you should know that by now..;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

It is as good as ours..mind you..it is ours probably...half of the stuff we have is produced, delivered, mixed and used by Irish residents of the UK.. so no cheek.. never cheek from me Tenni you should know that by now..;)

---

but...but ...but I like your cheekiness :bigrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

but...but ...but I like your cheekiness :bigrin:

---

..ok then sinceya insist.. buggas prob nicked it all off our buildin' sites.. :tong:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkeyes

..ok then sinceya insist.. buggas prob nicked it all off our buildin' sites.. :tong:

---

That's our fran....te..he..he

Bob Dylan for the . . .

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.

Copyright © 1983 Special Rider Music


*Taylor*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

A Dennis Haliday from an Irish "cargo" ship, Rachel Corrie, sailing with Humanitarian aid for Gaza just spoke on CBCnewsworld. He is an Irish citizen and a former UN official under the Secretary General. He answered several questions. He stated that he is hopeful that Israel with rethink how it behaves when the Irish ship that he is on reaches within Gaza's area. He is hopeful that they will let his ship through. In response to whether he thinks that his group would let Israel finish delivering the supplies, he stated that half of the shipment is "good Irish cement" (500 tonnes). He stated that both the activists and the UN determine cement a humanitarian material while Israel does not. He does not believe that half of the shipment would therefore be delivered by Israel.

Mr Haliday believes that the UN has failed the Palestinians for years as far as their homes, water, medical aid etc. To the question as to whether his actions are smart? He laughed and said that is a good question but he is about providing aid. He says that there are no weapons on the Rachel Corrie. They are nervous and anxious but determined. He is determined to respect any Israel military and hopes that they will respect the aid activist tonight (and not kill them). He wants the Israeli Gaza policies changed. They have no cameras with them though to document what may happen. No news agency went with them.

* waits to see if the Scottish cheeky tart will make a comment about the Irish and good Irish cement ;)

---

I hope they turn back, or allow Israel to deliver the aid supplies. Anything else is asking for trouble. And that's what Turkey, and Ireland, and any other nation is doing. They're saying "Oh yeah? Bet you won't do that to our ships." They're going to find out that they are wrong.

This time, however, Israel should wait until they get inside their territorial waters. I agree that it shouldn't happen in international waters.

Pasa

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

You know what, all the verbosity in the world will not change my view that Israel is fighting to survive in a harsher climate than any of us can imagine. So keep your walls of text and I'll keep my view.

And that's not an American supporting Israel, that's a person with a brain that has read the history and you can preach til the cows come up but England set up the first agreement with the US to enforce the Mandate and protect Israel. So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.

---

It's called freedom of speech and views. I have a brain too, a damned good one. Such agreements would not have been set up by England....but by the Government of the United Kingdom/Great Britain, England being one of three separate countries and part of a fourth, making up the United Kingdom. The Act of Settlement, to join the countries under one union, was signed in 1707, during the reign of the last Stuart Monarch, Queen Anne.

''So give your holier than thou attitude a rest, I don't want to hear any more before I start losing respect for people.''

What may seem holier than thou, to you, will be views that others will agree with. The State of Israel, is no more sacred, than any other country, or people, upon this planet.