Article re: circumcision

FWIW: Breast feeding does no permanent damage to the infant.

No one is saying that being circumcised makes you a freak.

There are some of us that wish we had been consulted before parts of our body got lopped off, however.

Am I angry with my parents about it? No, they were simply following the advice of the medical establishment (and in some cases weren't really given a choice.)

You might be asking or thinking "why does a pre-op transsexual care about her foreskin?" Because it could have been used to create a more realistic vagina. Now, I don't have that "material" to work with, due to a decision that my parents may not even have thought about.

But it does need to be put out there that this is a medically unnecessary procedure that changes the person for life without consent.

To do something because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" isn't always a good idea, especially when it changes a persons life.

:2cents:

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Originally Posted by MarieDelta

To do something because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" isn't always a good idea, especially when it changes a persons life.

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uh.......those decisions are made everyday..........Parents make decisions that will change their childs lives because "that's the way we've always done it" or "because that's what everyone does" or because that is the decision they felt was right for them........are you going to condemn all of them for all those decisions? Again your choice your belief's........and they are different from mine.

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Originally Posted by MarieDelta

FWIW: Breast feeding does no permanent damage to the infant.

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http://www.promom.org/101/

here is a link for a study that suggests breast fed children average a 10 point higher IQ than bottled fed..........my fucking parents..........those bastards could have made me smarter...........damn them..............they mutilated my brain...........lol

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Originally Posted by LetMeHitItFromThBack

How is what that person said ill will?

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Yo Bozo, with the similar handle and even similar comments and writing style to the other person (InTheNameOfLove) leaving us to believe you are both the same person using 2 different handles, what part of the following quote is not wishing ill will upon us????

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I hope one day your son gets angry at you and is mad that he did not have the choice to remain intact and decide if he wants to keep his foreskin or not with his own free will and not something that you as misinformed parents decided for him.

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Do I need to explain it to you???

Oh, for those who haven't seen uncut cock in porno flicks, we have a whole tape of uncut cocks picked off of satellite tv at a hotel. So it is out there. We don't watch it much and usually FF past the uncut scenes.

We totally agree with bicurcple but wondering why you're still posting after claiming you won't waste time with these pathetic people.

mariedelta: What about NOT breast feeding your baby? That was the point trying to be made, not the other way around as you have expressed it with your "FWIW" statement.

darkeyes: if a child waits until he is old enough to decide on circumcision, the risks become greater, the pain is far greater intensified and the healing time takes longer. We had a room mate who had his done while living with us. He went through hell. Incidentally, he is Scottish. See also bicurcple's comments.

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I find this thread disturbing to me in many ways.

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Thank-you TwylaTwobits

Okay....i'm going to say it. WTF are you doing saying that circumsizing your children when they are babies, as recommended by the pediatrician who came to hospital to take care of your son, now molestation? Really, please get a grip. A personal opinion about circumcision doesn't make anyone's else's opinions or decisions either wrong or immoral.

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Originally Posted by bicurcple

I understand what your trying to say, that an infant does not have the choice, but what about breast feeding? an infant does not have a choice in that matter either.....should I be upset with my mother because I was not breast fed.......or should I say that everyone who was breast fed is a freak...a monster. I just do not feel because you think it is mutilation and an atrocity that you are correct................It is just your opinion....and that is that. The threads on here that are against circumcision are just going overboard with it. So you feel it is wrong and it mutilation....whatever.....trying to make people who are circumcised feel like there is something wrong with them....that is what's wrong.

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Not sure yas grasped it hun.. mutilition is the harming or removal of a body or part of a body which should be there..a boy is born with a foreskin and it should be there. To deliberately mutilate someone is not necessarily an atrocity.. it depends on the reason and whether it was concensual.. to deliberately mutilate someone when it is unnecessary and without their permission is an atrocity...

..and no one is trying to make any who are circumcised that they are freaks.. quite the contrary... it is the culture of infant circumcision we are critical of.. not those who have been so cut...

.. let me put it this way.. what would you say if the government decided that all those men and boys who were uncircumcised were to be compelled to attend a hospital for the operation to be performed within 30 days of receipt of that notice? Would you not consider that those men and boys to be, against their will, the victims of an assault and an atrocity? Or does the will of a thinking being have no standing? They at least are able to try and do something about it. A 3 day old child has no say and can do nothing whatsoever.

As We said before, if you feel this way, please feel free to contact our local office of the Ministry of Children and Families and report us for child abuse, molestation or whatever. The manger's name is Susan Murray and her number is 250-674-6818. We're her next door neighbours. She'll know who you are talking about.

Otherwise SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP TRYING TO RAM YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS DOWN OUR THROATS!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Ontheside

Sorry Twyla,
And any other pro mutilation folks.
Reality sucks. The hospital charged you for the procedure. The hospital sold the foreskins for a very nice profit. The operation was medically unnecessary, painful, permanently harmful, done for the sake of your feelings of conformity, and ultimately abusive because... there was no medical threat/requirement... and it lacked their adult consent.
If you felt strongly about it, waited until they were 18, and then, with their permission, had it done it, technically would not be abuse; just your obsession.
You might have been a fantastic 'mom' otherwise; that doesn't change the damage you deliberately inflicted.
How great can a dad be to counter sexual abuse on his child?
How great can a mother be to counter sexual abuse on her child?
Circumcision is and has been to the penis and sex life what lobotomy was to the brain. Sure it "still functions" and on extremely rare occasions "perhaps better than it otherwise might have".
I don't have much patience with neurotic denial; or yielding to what's popular.
You did it. You (I'm laughing) can certainly never give back - even with the greatest science today - even a small fraction, of what you blythely destroyed.

If your kids were born in the 1950's, the above truth remains, but it would have been an angelic or brilliant work of sainthood for you to rise above culture.
If in the 1960's (we don't have to conform - we can do our own thing), yeah, you would have been above the average person to not do it because it was morally wrong but medical community supported.
If in the 1970's (don't conform, do your own thing), kinda blurry, morally.
If in the 1980's (conformity? show me scientific reason), you really were borderline deliberately ignorant. You (without any medical need) declined to review material available either statistically in the library (WorldHealthOrganization records since 1945) and the actual publishing of books outlining the fallacy of circumcision. You failed to research the science of an important question.
If in the 1990's, you were consciously ignorant. Dr. Spock publicly reversed his position. You have already heard and ignored (by not investigating in any library) the beginning of the arguments against. You have already heard and understood the concept of "adult consent", and denied that "privilege" for your children.
If after 2000, you really have a feminist problem or severe pathologies. Not just feminist (pro woman in a positive sense), but feminist hate-and-harm-men (in exactly the same way a man would rape a daughter and say "it was to prepare her for womanhood"). The internet... google... If you were born and raised in the bush country/desert and seldom never hear/read anything from civilization, or have an IQ of less than 90, then you can fall under the ignorance plea...
If after 2007, you are a child molester and should do hard jail time for the scum you are (but breath a sigh of relief - you won't). There is no difference from you doing sexual harm to an innocent child for the sake of satisfying your feelings of conformity, than a man doing sexual harm to a child for his feelings of sexual need.
Both are doing clear irreversible sexual harm to innocent children only to appease the unrelated feelings of an adult.

Unfortunately, lobotomies remained legal and despite clear scientific evidence against, remained an option decades after proven ...a destructive shot in the dark. Although if performed now, on less than 20 people a year worldwide, might actually have a scientific ghost of a chance of actually being beneficial, once in a while. Perhaps the same number of men will actually benefit from circumcision.


Vent you spleen now at me for telling the truth. :)

The final truth is:
If your children want to lose at least half the feeling in their penis in a purely destructive mutilation, it should be their idea and decision as consenting adults after reaching 18 years old.
If you are forcing your sexuality (or pathology) on a child by mutilating his penis... well, that kind of defines the whole thing now, doesn't it?
If you've already molested him, you can live in denial that you didn't harm him... or just face the fact you molested an innocent - for your own emotional reasons only you know - and then come to terms.

As much as you hate me or what I've said, it doesn't change the truth of what I've said.

Feel free to hate me :). I merely stand against adults molesting children, legally or illegally, conformist or non conformist, gay or straight, pseudo science medical/wives tales or reality...
You might as well argue female circumcision for the same reasons already presented... sheesh... or just make up reasons to protect your ego... or your sense of society comfort... etc

For goodness sake. If you're obsessed with chopping off something of your innocent child to make him or her 'perfect' chop of some toes or some seldom used fingers... avoid chopping off personal parts... like important parts of the penis.

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No sorry, I didn't fuck up. I didn't harm any innocents. I made a decision I standby regardless of the mudslinging. You have no info on your personal profile? Are you a parent? Have you ever had to make a decision about your child's future and know that you have a short time to do it in? Do you know that having circumcisions done at a later age is a pretty serious surgery and requires a long time before they can even masturbate let alone have sex or pee without discomfort.


Uncircumcised males also run the risk of tearing the foreskin when they have sex that is a bit too vigorous. Seems something done under local anesthesia with applications of Tylenol for infants to take away any lingering discomfort is a much better alternative than losing what you claim is so precious during sex.

My children were sleeping when they were taken from the room for the procedure, they were sleeping when they came back not even an hour or so later. They never had any major crying that wasn't due to being hungry. So don't tell me I fucked up and mutilated my child and most especially do not tell me how to be a parent.

Ya know, it's threads like this, among many others, that seriously make me not want to come here anymore. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with some people here not understanding that there is nothing wrong with having an opinion but you dont' have to be insulting about it.

And I just can not fathom why so many of you feed into the Troll! He does this all the time! He goes back, pulls up a thread that was controversial at one time to stir up shit, and everyone just goes along with it! We could SO easily put an end to that real quick by saying "Oh look, he's at it again" and letting it go, but instead we all choose to sit here, and make the same old comments and points that we made in the past just to keep a thread going that no one wanted to keep going in the first place (which is why it was way back in the archives).

All of this bullshit is just a neverending circle here. It's a shame...a damn shame. :(

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Originally Posted by rissababynta

Ya know, it's threads like this, among many others, that seriously make me not want to come here anymore. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with some people here not understanding that there is nothing wrong with having an opinion but you dont' have to be insulting about it.

And I just can not fathom why so many of you feed into the Troll! He does this all the time! He goes back, pulls up a thread that was controversial at one time to stir up shit, and everyone just goes along with it! We could SO easily put an end to that real quick by saying "Oh look, he's at it again" and letting it go, but instead we all choose to sit here, and make the same old comments and points that we made in the past just to keep a thread going that no one wanted to keep going in the first place (which is why it was way back in the archives).

All of this bullshit is just a neverending circle here. It's a shame...a damn shame. :(

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Maybe if we knew who the Troll/s is/are by their handle names. Those should be publically displayed on the home page so we know right off the top. Anytime it's discovered a troll exists, that handle should be put front and centre for all to know. Then we could more easily avoid situations like this.

In any event, you are absolutely correct. Had we known this was a troll effort, we never would have fed into it.

The troll would be the ones telling people they fucked up and abused and mutilated and even molested their children for choosing to have circumsized. At least Darkeyes posts intelligent and non rude remarks in her debating replies.

I've not read all the threads on this, but IMO people should not circumcise boys unless there is a good medical reason. I watched a video a while back where a woman who is an expert on issues about female genital mutilation said male circumcision was worse than the milder female forms, involving piercing, which are universally condemned in the west (along with the extreme forms which involve removing the whole clitoris or even parts of the labia). It is a fact it removes a lot of sensitive nerve endings and removes the possibility of the pleasurable feeling of the skin sliding over the head of the penis. I am from Europe and Europeans are usually quite surprised to hear that it is very common in the US. I don't really get the "it's cleaner" argument as cleaning under it is incredibly easy to do. I read one theory is that it was popular with some people in the 19th Century because they thought it might discourage boys from masturbating, I'm not sure if that is true or not. Anyway, I personally don't like how cut penises look, but then maybe that's just because, like I said, it's not the usual thing where I'm from. I don't think people who have it done to their children are evil abusers or anything though... I just think that logically if you think about it, it is better not to do it and there is no good reason for it; it is just something that has become a cultural norm in some places and people have it done because they think it must be right because it's usual.

Hi, by the way, this is my first post, and sorry if I picked a thread to comment on that some people sound irritated with. I guess it is a bit tangental to discussion of being bi.

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Originally Posted by shybipinay

Maybe if we knew who the Troll/s is/are by their handle names. Those should be publically displayed on the home page so we know right off the top. Anytime it's discovered a troll exists, that handle should be put front and centre for all to know. Then we could more easily avoid situations like this.

In any event, you are absolutely correct. Had we known this was a troll effort, we never would have fed into it.

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Hmmm good point. Usually, when threads like this are brought back from the past for no reason, and the person who brought it back is being an asshole and has all of the same patterns and characteristics as the other trolls, it's a pretty in your face thing, yet obviously not clear to everyone.

Man! I'm surprised at the emotionalism over this thread!

Yes, I wish I'd never been cut.

BUT, I know my parents were trusting of the medical professionals and felt that the doctors would have the best advice about my health. Like Twyla, they did what they felt best for me, based on what they were told.

I assure you that they, nor Twyla, would ever do anything, that they felt would harm their children.

The fact that I wish I had not been circumcised, does not make me want to condemn them for doing what they thought was best.

The name calling and mean-spirited outbursts, that some of you wrote, certainly is not the actions of intelligent and reasonable people.

Troll or no is immaterial sometimes when old threads are resuscitated.. often it is a good thing when an old issue is given another hearing.. even if its something with which we feel uncomfortable and causes friction. We live in the real world, and the real world is a bloody site nastier than ever .com will ever be..:)

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Originally Posted by Realist

Man! I'm surprised at the emotionalism over this thread!

Yes, I wish I'd never been cut.

BUT, I know my parents were trusting of the medical professionals and felt that the doctors would have the best advice about health.

Like Twyla, they did what they felt best for their child and followed the advice from their physicians. I assure you that they, nor Twyla, did anything that they felt would harm their children.

The fact that I wish I had not been circumcised, does not make me want to condemn them for doing what they thought was best.

The name calling and mean-spirited outbursts, that some of you wrote, certainly is not the actions of intelligent and reasonable people.

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I'm not suprised by the emotive posts on this subject Realist.. I seem to remeber a few years ago writing a particularly emotive few myself saying things in a tone I now regret. What you say is right... parents do trust the medical profession, probably too much and it is their advice that they have relied on. European doctors give out quite different advice, as they do in many other countries. I believe a century ago most British boys were circumcised but there was a sea change in opinions in the UK over the following half century or so and now it is relatively rare as I have already said. It is the medical profession in the US who should be taken to task, and society in general.. not individual parents.. debates such as this are needed to keep the issue alive and if only one person changes their mind on a subject as a result of debate, then it is all worth while..:)

do me a favour..... when you go on about being mutilated, bear in mind that there are people in the site that you are calling mutilated..... and that is something that can be really fucking insulting...

sure I was circumcised.... but look that the shit that is being posted.... about non cut males are better than me cos I am mutilated and I can not * perform * according to stats and fiqures....

as my partner can tell you, I am larger than average, I can maintain a erection for a few hours.... I have been known to go more than 9 times in one 24 for hour period... but that doesn't matter, all I am seeing is people constantly referring to cut people as mutilated.....

we have a surgical procedure done.... so does that make all people that have had surgery and parts removed * mutilated * too....
are they too some how less than * good enuf * now....

ok circumcision may not be a needed surgical procedure for babies, but in some people that are older, they have no option.... and they are getting labelled as mutilated too..... rather fucking insulting to say that about people that had no fucking chance....

there is a difference between people that * mutilate * their bodies with extreme body modding and cut parts off.... and people like me that are getting insulted cos we have NO FUCKING SAY in it

am I angry with my parents, NO.... were they wrong, NO... did they wreck my life NO... should I blame the doctors yadda yadda NO

what happened, has happened, I am a cut male.... but my partners have been more than satisfied with me, as I am more than a cut cock.. I make love with them using my body and that makes up for any issues with my cut cock

so if you wanna call us mutilated, go for it..... just remember that you are applying the label to any body like cut males, that had a surgical procedure to have parts removed..... and that can include ladies with breast removal and rebuilding surgery.... cos they are like the males that work to rebuild their foreskin

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Originally Posted by IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

That's funny Long Duck you admit that male and female circumcision is mutilation here and describe how your penis has scar tissue from being cut and how you would describe your penis as being mutilated and so would your doctor since you do not have feelings in some areas of it due to being cut.

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It's funny that that whole big thing was all one sentence...

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Originally Posted by IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

That's funny Long Duck you admit that male and female circumcision is mutilation here and describe how your penis has scar tissue from being cut and how you would describe your penis as being mutilated and so would your doctor since you do not have feelings in some areas of it due to being cut.

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yeah and your point is ???.... you are taking my remarks about how circumcision can be viewed as mutilation, and comparing them to the way I am talking about how being called mutilated can be rather insulting .....there are two different aspects there.....

now where in that post you quoted, did I call myself a mutilated person ?

its a lil like talking about saying you post like a troll, and calling you a troll.... big difference, one is personal and one is not... btw I am not calling you a troll, in case you misread that statement....

ok the doctor that called it mutilation was anti circumcision.... I am not anti circumcision cos I know at times it can be medically needed....

my issue with scarring is a benefit and a curse, sure I have limited feeling, but fucking a partner for 14 hours in one day, is something I think is quite good.... for ANY person, so I do use the scarring to my advantage and yes I can use vit E cream on my penis to make it more sensitive.... but my partner did enjoy sucking a cock that would make a horse cry... and the taste of vit E cream is not as tasty as a mouth full of cum....


now just do me a favour and bear in mind that calling a surgical procedure a mutilation is not the same as saying that people are mutilated and some how not good enuf any more.... cos my partner for one can tell you that I am anything but average for a cut male

We can't believe this guy has nothing better to do with his life than be a crusader for uncut cock. What a pathetic waste considering the billions who go hungry every day.

We decided it was time to use the "iggy" button. 3x just over this thread.

What I find odd, Iwannna, is that you have no problem pulling up other people's past posts and twisting them to suit your own purposes. Now why don't you tell us your past names so we can look at your former words, ooops sorry can't I believe Drew deletes when he bans. Now please, really you keep coming back and you keep causing crap. Is this how you get your jollies? Don't misunderstand me, I am calling you a troll. You are using same words and phrases as some who have recently been removed from this site. Either change the way you post or grow up, either way. Ignored.

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Originally Posted by IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

I see how it is, Twyla is all for male genital mutilation as she let her sons' penises be mutilated for vain aesthetic reasons and conformity that's useless, so now Long Duck is claiming that circumcision is somehow not genital mutilation at all even though his penis is fucked up from a circumcision and he and a medical professional have talked about how it is severly scarred and has nerve damage to it where there is not any feeling at all.

Or perhaps Long Duck is trying to over compensate for his own mutilated penis (described as mutilated in his own words) and start an internet dick sizing contest online on this post like Pasadena did in the thread about Christianity to lots of people who are against hate crimes?

Don't call all types of circumcision mutilation and completely useless in one post long duck and then claim how it's simply not mutilation at all in another since this is hypocritical, does not even make any sense, and it's circular logic.

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Then, this must be mutilation logic.
Although it seems to me to be "I am so superior to you rage"

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Originally Posted by IwannaFUCKALLNIGHT

I see how it is, Twyla is all for male genital mutilation as she let her sons' penises be mutilated for vain aesthetic reasons and conformity that's useless, so now Long Duck is claiming that circumcision is somehow not genital mutilation at all even though his penis is fucked up from a circumcision and he and a medical professional have talked about how it is severly scarred and has nerve damage to it where there is not any feeling at all.

Or perhaps Long Duck is trying to over compensate for his own mutilated penis (described as mutilated in his own words) and start an internet dick sizing contest online on this post like Pasadena did in the thread about Christianity to lots of people who are against hate crimes?

Don't call all types of circumcision mutilation and completely useless in one post long duck and then claim how it's simply not mutilation at all in another since this is hypocritical, does not even make any sense, and it's circular logic.

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can you please hold up a second....

I am not saying that circumcision is not a form of mutilation, I have said that in a lot of aspects it can be....
but I am being clear between a surgical produce that is done with good reason and a surgical produce that results in issues that could have been avoid

you tend to think that anybody circumcised is mutilated.... now I have a 27 year old friend that developed issues with the foreskin tightening excessively, and ended up having the foreskin removed....
so tell me, was he in hospital getting a surgical procedure to enhance his sex life and other aspects or in hospital being mutilated with no real benefits....

as I have also pointed out, there are pros and cons to my circumcision, I am sitting on the fence about it as I have no proof that being uncut is better as I can not compare the differences in my body..... and yeah it would be the same with uncut males, how would they know that they are better off being uncut than cut ......
simple answer is they do not.... they just copy and paste what others say, mutilate the posts into something that is more twisted than a cock with scar tissue.... and totally fail to understand that there is something called the middle ground....
the middle ground is me sitting here saying while in some cases circumcision is not needed, there are also cases where it is needed....
but your stance is a cut man is a mutilated male and that its cruel and unusual treatment of a penis.......
my friend that had to be circumcised at 27.... as a different opinion.... he had a surgical procedure that was medically needed.....
should he have been prevented from having it cos circumcisions should be banned ??????


if you say no, there you are supporting circumcision and penile mutilation... and therefore being a hypocrite

if you say yes, you are forcing a person to suffer cos you think you know whats best for everybody

if you say the middle ground that while you do not agree with circumcisions, that yes they are sometimes medically needed.... you are standing beside me....

thats the advantage to having a open mind...I can stand in the middle ground and look at a issue from multiple sides....
as for a cock sizing contest, you have me beaten hands down...
I may be a dick with a prick, but you are a prick with a dick.... and well, 6 ft pricks will win any day

Iwanna hun..there are ways and ways of saying the same thing.. so much I agree with in your posts but not the way they are written. There is so much information that people would study it more if your posts were better considered. Sit down take 5 and think it through. Sometimes I too get carried away and rant. Invariably I regret it and have calmed down a lot in the last year or two. You can have the passion without the flame getting out of control..:)

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Originally Posted by shybipinay

We totally agree with bicurcple but wondering why you're still posting after claiming you won't waste time with these pathetic people.





Thank-you TwylaTwobits

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You are correct, I said I would not waste my time with it anymore, but looking at these idiot assholes telling me I was mutilated and telling me I molested my sons by having them circumcised really pissed me off.
The subject is dead to me and I will not be back, but believe me, if I ever meet someone on the street and listen to them tell me I molested my sons.............I will be spending time in the local jail for assault.

"Doctors and nurses do frequently tell lies about circumcision to the parents such as "Oh he slept through the entire thing!" or "He didn't cry at all!" which is all total bullshit since infants are strapped down and even with anesthesia they do feel lots of pain since a very sensitive part of their penis is being cut off. They actually do pass out from the pain or stay awake and fully conscious and then go into shock from it. "

This section of Iwanna's post may need further clarification. As I understand it that the baby is strapped down because he is a baby and they use a local anesthesia. Babies may move a lot whether they are being operated on under a local or just lying there. Even though he may feel no pain, he may feel the touch of the instruments near the edge of the freezing boundary. I refer to any dental work being done while under a local anesthesia as a reference.

If a baby were to pass out from the pain, then would the anesthesia not have taken effect yet or some other anesthesia problem? If it is an anesthesia problem, what might be done to determine that the anesthesia has taken effect? Again, in an adult, you simply ask them if they can feel anything but not with a newborn. I would expect a doctor or nurse would do something to test if the anesthesia has taken effect. The bottom line though is how does Iwanna know that this crying and passing out from shock has happened? Is Iwanna a doctor who has performed circumcision or a nurse who has actually witnessed these operations? If not, what credibility does Iwanna have to make such statements as fact rather than opinion or even hearsay?

I don't wish to pour oil on already inflamed waters, but several years ago Channel 4 televised a documentary on male child circumcision in the US. The babies were plainly awake and strapped down on something resembling a metal food dish such as the military or schools may use in food halls, contoured to a baby shape. This may not be the case in all American hospitals, but it is certainly the case in some.

And lest we forget the story of David Reimer

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David Reimer was born as a male identical twin in Winnipeg, Manitoba. His birth name was Bruce; his twin brother was named Brian. At the age of 6 months, after concern was raised about how both twins urinated, both boys were diagnosed with phimosis. They were referred for circumcision at the age of 8 months. On April 27, 1966, a Urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization. The procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and David Reimer's penis was burned beyond surgical repair.[1]

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BTW: His brothers urinary issues resolved themselves on their own.

Accidents do happen.

"We also have a neato word that disguises the nastiness of what we do - circumcision ( round cut); rather than the descriptive "mutilating an innocent baby's penis".

The decision as to whether to refer to this operation as a "circumcision" or "mutilation" is done for a personal and political reason. Many operations may be said to leave the body "mutilated". Posters here are chosing to use this word, "mutilated" for shock impact. That is all.

They wish to stop circumcision it appears. If you are realistic, you will know that will not happen in North America any day soon. It may evolve that the operation will be done fewer and fewer times. Circumcision in North America is a cultural act: plain and simple. It may be true that it reduces the sensitivity in the penis. For some young men, they may be happy about that but not even know that is why they suffer less frequently from pre mature ejaculation..:bigrin:. Unless they lose all sensitivity they will still have a pleasant orgasm. So what is the big deal?

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Originally Posted by tenni

"Doctors and nurses do frequently tell lies about circumcision to the parents such as "Oh he slept through the entire thing!" or "He didn't cry at all!" which is all total bullshit since infants are strapped down and even with anesthesia they do feel lots of pain since a very sensitive part of their penis is being cut off. They actually do pass out from the pain or stay awake and fully conscious and then go into shock from it. "

This section of Iwanna's post may need further clarification. As I understand it that the baby is strapped down because he is a baby and they use a local anesthesia. Babies may move a lot whether they are being operated on under a local or just lying there. Even though he may feel no pain, he may feel the touch of the instruments near the edge of the freezing boundary. I refer to any dental work being done while under a local anesthesia as a reference.

If a baby were to pass out from the pain, then would the anesthesia not have taken effect yet or some other anesthesia problem? If it is an anesthesia problem, what might be done to determine that the anesthesia has taken effect? Again, in an adult, you simply ask them if they can feel anything but not with a newborn. I would expect a doctor or nurse would do something to test if the anesthesia has taken effect. The bottom line though is how does Iwanna know that this crying and passing out from shock has happened? Is Iwanna a doctor who has performed circumcision or a nurse who has actually witnessed these operations? If not, what credibility does Iwanna have to make such statements as fact rather than opinion or even hearsay?

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It's because Iwanna is full of crap tenni. In a lot of cases a parent can be present when it is happening if they ask and they have a good doctor. A friend of mine and myself stood in for our sons, and with her son, he was awake the whole time, never passed out or flinched from any pain...and with my son he was asleep when they brought us to the room, they did what they had to do without him flinching or acting as though he was being touched, and he was still asleep until we got to the room when I woke him up for a bottle. It's funny that he can sit there and bitch about how nurses and doctors lie about this when parents themselves can see it :rolleyes: He's just another troll dear, please take anything he has to say with a grain of salt...

Do you have any credentials to give yourself credibility or is this hearsay?
I had understood that newborns were not given anesthesia but someone else has posted that they believe that local anesthesia is used?

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Originally Posted by Ontheside

tenni
there is no anesthesia. Anesthesia is avoided because of potentially further seriously harming the child.
How would you know the difference between a baby crying in fear lapsing into shock as opposed to a regular persistent newborn cry. You wouldn't.
Doctors routinely lie about pain and anesthesia.
The baby does sometimes pass out from the pain.
Every study ever attempted at evaluating pain of newborn circumcision or evaluating a baby's reaction to pain (using circumcision) has been abandoned before completion. This is because each study exceeded moral boundaries of scientific medicine (no Josef Mengele type experimentation).
Typical metrics for these studies involve heart rate, frequency of cries, and shallowness of breath (among other criteria).

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http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcis...ns/article.htm

Pros and cons as listed by actual medical people, you know the ones with licenses that went to school to help humanity have a better life.

Thanks Rissa for your in person observations. That is proof. Do you know if they used a local anesthesia? (not that it will change me personally because I don't believe that I was anesthestised).

A funny side note is that my mother was a great horder of bills. We found the bill for my circumcision as we were cleaning up her house. By today's standards, it was cheap. I think that I might still have that bill hanging around somewhere. So, in one respect, I still have a memento of my circumcision of my former foreskin. :bigrin:

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Originally Posted by tenni

Thanks Rissa for your in person observations. That is proof. Do you know if they used a local anesthesia? (not that it will change me personally because I don't believe that I was anesthestised).

A funny side note is that my mother was a great horder of bills. We found the bill for my circumcision as we were cleaning up her house. By today's standards, it was cheap. I think that I might still have that bill hanging around somewhere. So, in one respect, I still have a memento of my circumcision. :bigrin:

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They used a little numbing ointment and then I believe they injected a small amount of anesthesia into the foreskin if I remember correctly. I was more focused on my sons face than anything else so I didn't watch step by step what they did with the whole numbing department. He told me what he was doing too, but I wasn't focused on him lol. In some cases, they use a sugar water solution on the baby. It's bizarre, but because their pain receptors aren't properly developed as an infant, the solution almost mimicks the effects of a narcotic for a few minutes. I thought that was interesting when I first learned that years ago...I wonder if today they use it more often.

They used to not do this because doctors a long time ago believed that babies brains weren't developed enough to be able to feel pain, so they felt it was unnecessary, but now the majority of doctors in the world would never dream about doing any kind of procedure on an adult or child without some form of anesthesia.

I would also like to add for all of the people going off about how the baby is in OBVIOUS pain because they are crying and screaming...umm...yeah. Ya know how that happens? The second they are strapped onto the table, they start carrying on, because babies generally like being swaddled and held tightly like in the womb. The second you have them in that position with their arms and legs strapped out of the way...they get annoyed by it. Some babies don't care, like my son who preferred not to be swaddled right after he popped out of me haha. But the ones who do, tend to be the ones who get annoyed the second they are strapped onto the table.

Thanks Rissa
Everything that you wrote makes sense to me. I had heard about the question about how well developed the neurological system is in newborns. Sugar as a drug...lol I was feed commercial baby food that had sugar in it. The argument was so that the parent who might taste it would think that it was good. Now you tell me that I was being drugged....lol I always thought that is how I developed a sweet tooth.

"these people are referred to in psychological fields as cowards."

LOL...get fuck'n real. "Coward" is not a term used in psychological journals as a descriptor for any condition or theory that I have read.....

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Originally Posted by Ontheside

I'm sorry to challenge you again, Rissa
But exactly how can the nervous system of a newborn feel hunger from the stomach, feel 'wet' and 'poopy' to cry when so, feel tickling of the toes and spanking at birth to start breathing, and yet have the nervous system shut off during the mutilation?

In adults, we call this shock, where you don't feel any pain, at the moment.

"Only blind are those who will not see"

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Then I guess it's pointless for anyone to ever get anesthesia since apparently, according to you, there is no way for anyone to not feel pain.

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Originally Posted by tenni

Thanks Rissa
Everything that you wrote makes sense to me. I had heard about the question about how well developed the neurological system is in newborns. Sugar as a drug...lol I was feed commercial baby food that had sugar in it. The argument was so that the parent who might taste it would think that it was good. Now you tell me that I was being drugged....lol I always thought that is how I developed a sweet tooth.

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LMFAO well, it mainly only works in babies 3 months and under...and that's a bit too young for babyfood...so I wouldn't go thinking that you were drugged just yet haha.

*puts away the "victim card".:cool:
Searches through desk for another explanation for my sweet tooth:bigrin:

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Originally Posted by rissababynta

LMFAO well, it mainly only works in babies 3 months and under...and that's a bit too young for babyfood...so I wouldn't go thinking that you were drugged just yet haha.

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