Printable View
Coz I don't judge a person for their opinions, but judge their opinions by their beliefs. We all have those, and we'd be daft to not explore them IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrugstoreCowboy
Wouldn't you prefer to know what causes a homophobic, biphobic, racist etc belief than just ignore those who cling to them?
Just coz you can't do that, doesn't mean that nobody can.;)Quote:
Making love? LOL! The guy was a hook up.
lol ok gearbox.... well its been fun....but the thought that you are going to keep posting your sex life as a example of how you deal with biphobic gay guys, has me rolling my eyes...... maybe it works for you and tenni I have no idea.... but I would rather not read about your sex life so I am going to leave you to go play bi phobia bedroom battles.... and yeah... I am hitting the ignore button ......
play safe, be safe......
As best I am able to tell, tenni.. what u intend is to replace what u believe to be one much too dominant group by another... nothing u have said tells me that u have thought any of it through since it seems to be by what u have said that u are unable to see that even established successful groups will require education and support, and it is all too possible the erasure and invisibility of other groups becomes a fact as bisexuals flex their muscles once they have become the dominant sexuality within the lgbt and activities of the other now lesser groupings wither on the vine....... I don't intend to say any more on this thread.. I just leave it with u to mull it over and consider how we safeguard the rights and and aspirations of what have become de facto lesser and less influential groups? As best I can tell what u want is the boot to be on the other foot assuming that the gay and lesbian communities have it on the opposite.:eek2:.
You are buggering off coz you don't have the balls to look at yourself, or the courage to be looked at....cartoon dog.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Good luck looking down on those with a sexlife. Very appropriate of you.lol
darkeyes
I see in part your point. Democratically, the majority of an LGBT organization should represent bisexuals. An often maximum for a Board of non profits is 12. That would mean that democratically there would be seven bisexuals, one gay man, one lesbian, one transgendered and two other categories whether different sexualities, lawyers, city representative etc.
This seems fair by democratic standards but life gets complicated. Would seven bisexuals step forward? It might be better to state that bisexuals would represent five to seven board members. The question is how close is any representation of bisexuals on GLBT organizations boards by the bylaws or constitution? Some have said that bylaws do not indicate such bylaws or any reference to mandatory representations of bisexuals on these boards. The representation of bisexuals on GLBT organization's boards was a reccommendation of the San Francisco report.
Nobody did.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrugstoreCowboy
........making love to them?Quote:
I did some in the past a few times but it is not my thing, and I don't like it. That's entirely different than 'You can't do that'.
Oh thanks.:rolleyes:Quote:
If you want to have meaningless casual sex or hook ups with all the biphobic gay men in the UK go for it. Nobody's stopping you if this is what you want to do for some strange reason.
Yes I know I don't. I have sex with them coz it's really nice.Quote:
You do not have to have sex with a bigot to find out why they are bigoted.
That's often true! There's always a cause tho. They are not 'born that way'......pun intended.lolQuote:
Plus people who are homophobic, racist, biphobic, etc. do not even realize this about themselves and will just deny it if you tell them about it.
Nope, I personally am not likely to change anybody biphobic etc. I have tried that until I'm blue in the face. It just doesn't register.:thumbu:Quote:
There's no sense in figuring out why these people are bigoted as it's their issue or problem and you personally are not going to change them.
Doesn't mean I should shun them, or not take an interest in the reasons for it tho. I think it's fascinating.YAY!
This is what you said - "Making love? LOL! The guy was a hook up.". And this was my reply - "Just coz you can't do that, doesn't mean that nobody can.;)"Quote:
Originally Posted by GiovanniPHL
That little two sentence convo was about you questioning making love to a hookup. Not ever having a hookup. Don't get a kindle!:tongue:
Quote:
However, there are some people who are into sleeping with the enemy (bigots), and therefore acting as though it's OK for them to be biphobic/bigoted, or excusing it just because they want to hook up. You're one of them.
OMFG I'm in West Side Story.:bigrin: Well it kinda worked for the jets & the Sharks......so yu neva know!lol
Well, Giovanni is a special kind of asshole! I just ignore him now!
Thanks Drew
newlynympho
He was a troll who has used other names such as drugstore cowboy, top fucker etc. Drew seems to have put him in cooling off and removed his posts . There is an unhealthy method to this or trolls like him. You are correct to try to ignore him if you recognize his post style. Gear clearly knew who he was and even called him by one of his other names....Gear's such a tease..like playing with fire eh Gear?
Here in New York there is a certain amount of bad blood between the LGBT Center and the two bisexual groups that use its facilities. Even at the front desk, they react with a certain amount of distaste when you ask for the bisexual events.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
I figured as such. I'm just not so quick on the uptake! Took me several posts and bitching at him to realize I may as well bang my head against a wall!Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Yea when you see 30+ mostly offensive posts on the first day he joined it is a little suspicious. My immediate thought it to post "Their back" but I just shut up. I am afraid the repeats by this guy has not made Drew's job easy as you do not want to bounce every guy that posts a lot / posts annoying things. Who knows what kicks are gotten by some people but apparently it fills some desire on their part.
Some people simply do not want to know everyone else's sexuality. And
some of those do not care, it does not matter to them. What is private,
is private.
I do not feel a need to know Oscar Wilde was bisexual, or homosexual. He
was a good writer and that's enough. His sexuality, lack of it really is
of no concern to me.
This is where I find myself when asked if I'm "out". Those whom need
know, know. Those whom either don't need, nor do not want to know,
don't.
For me, it returns to dignity and respect. Apologies if this is seen as
fear or "hiding in a closet". I merely see no need to be "more out".
If I were, would it solve anything? I doubt it. Would it serve a purpose
aside from raising some hackles? Again, doubt it.
Boycott the "parade" or not? I have to remain indifferent either way.
Not been to one, see no pressing need to be. Just my two cents, fwiw.
http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story...ride-is-there/
Here is a newspaper columnist commenting on Pride events in a city that is in the shadow of Toronto. Toronto is holding the World Pride events this year. Hamilton is not having a parade due to lack of funds and lack of people with energy according to this report. Going to the website mentioned in the article and in the article itself, it seems that the events and language used is about the most visibly marginalized (queer disabled event, trans swim etc.) The use of the word “Queer” is everywhere. No where is the word bisexual that I found.
This shows me that these events are insensitive to bisexuals. These events are for those who adopt the “gay” language agenda when they use the word “queer”. You need to adopt the gay language if you are a bisexual otherwise you do not count. You need to stand up and be proud to be referred to as queer or you are not real seems to be the undertone.
This particular city’s GLBTQ organization has suffered under conflict for years but I doubt that the conflict was created by bisexuals. I heard rumours but the personality etc. conflicts but don’t know the details. There still seems to be two or three organizations claiming to serve GLBTQ but it seems clear that bi sensitivity is ignored. Most bisexuals will not go anywhere near these organizations unless the bisexual has acclimatized themselves to the gay dominant culture.
Everyone can have their own opinion. Ultimately it comes to eachQuote:
Originally Posted by tenni
individual. Each needs to realize, opinion is simply that, opinion.
It is subjective and belongs to another. Why be remorseful, distruaght
over something beyond your control? Apologies, I'll control my opinion
and the facts I know.
Fact, bisexuals exists. Fact, I identify as bisexual. Opinion, I am a
confident and proud person with every right to respect, love and honor
myself.
The last could be a fact. We each are entitled to do as it states, be as
it states. So what if some Joe Dumbfuck wants to say you don't exist?
I could as easily say Joe Dumbfuck doesn't exist. Who is correct, who is
in error, who can say? If this "Truth" is too obvious, too blunt, well
it is what is.
"Why be remorseful, distraught over something beyond your control?"
I agree there is no point being remorseful. There is a point in standing up or being vocal about injustice. The question is whether bisexuals tend to do anything about the injustices. The gay philosophy seems to be to stand united to oppose repression etc. from the mainstream. GLBT organizations do seem to tend to stand up for the most visible of minorities. The issues (for me) is are the needs of bisexuals identical to gays, trans, people of colour, disabled non heterosexuals? Do these groups not have needs that are not able to be meet by holding one meeting for all and expecting the needs of what the GLBT see as the parts?
Still what one may see as injust, another may see as just. And I amQuote:
Originally Posted by tenni
not saying it is just. Yet when all that humanity does is in direct
opposition of the natural order, what is left of True justice for any
one of us?
To paraphrase a bit, I think it is much to do about nothing. I return to
the question about bisexual porn. What is it? Is it porn with a bisexual
woman/man and a couple, or is it a two of same gender and then opposing
gender, all six?
Sex is sex and as a bisexual I enjoy nearly any porn, when taken by mood
to watch it. I have no preference regarding the porn. Seems akin to no
preference to lovers beded.
That relates to an issue of "binding together to fight against the dread
cause of injustice", because for me at least both seem trivial. These
issues are non-issues, simply because some fool corprate advertising
exec with no truck in the quandry has decided to make them issues. Gee,
can you smell the injustice there? :)
Well, I attended the Brainerd, MN LGBTQ Pride picnic. I wore my 12" mini kilt, a very short 1/2 shirt, some sexy sandals, and my Pride belly jewelry :) Very bi friendly event :) My wife and I were even invited to some other events and parties with the largely gay groups :) Very nice experience :) Was receiving compliments on my attire and tattoos all day! Probably go again next year too :)
Very good thread.
Glad that you enjoyed yourself!Quote:
Originally Posted by newlynymphos
You seem to feel comfortable and felt validated.
Why did you see the event as bi friendly?
Everyone there that I talked to knew I was married to a woman, even though I wore a fairly feminine outfit (which got compliments from both sexes!), and there was a strong bi-presence there (one of my sex buddies helps head a bi-sex organization). If I'm not translating what I experienced there into words well, sorry. But as a bi guy, I felt very at ease there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Thanks for the post newlynymphos and I don’t see any need to feel the need to say sorry. Based on what you wrote, you felt accepted for your non conforming individualism. You were complimented for having the strength to express yourself and your gender individualism. Whether a bisexual man with less individualistic tendencies would feel as comfortable is unknown. I wonder if people would walk up and compliment a bisexual man in a business suit or jeans and a t shirt?
Don't know, but I am bit of an odd duck, and seem to fit in better among other "outcasts" than i do among traditionally "normal" and more conservative people :)
hmm Is it the outcast individualism aspect that they were complimenting more rather than the bisexuality then?
Do these Pride events promote outcast individualism more than sexuality? Deviating from the social norm in attire and behaviour has become more important to celebrate? Although I respect your right to be an individual, I would hope not. Would you have felt as happy if no one commented on your attire but quietly accepted your right to wear what makes you happy? (chatting in a friendly manner but not one word about what you were wearing?)
I do believe I would've left there with the same positive note no matter my attire. This event just allowed me to feel very comfortable wearing whatever I wanted :) Admittedly, I was the most risque dressed person there (yet with some class too :) ), yet didn't feel the least bit uncomfortable :) I like the attention, so I grab it when and where I can :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
All in, it sounds as though you had great time. :) Would hope most suchQuote:
Originally Posted by newlynymphos
events are equally as pleasant. Good hearing of your visit being so
enjoyable.
Come whisper more sweet words in my ear about these happy events, we may
convience that stick in the mud me to enjoin them. ;) Or we might not.
Nonetheless I would not mind hearing more over tea, in seclusion.
People always talk. :) Not saying I would close the door fully on
an event. Merely have difficulty seeing a need. That was until you
mentioned being at ease, with many people. I'll go tuck my fishing pole
away, now. ;)
To reiterate the original point of this thread :
The Pride organizers - certainly here in NYC - are often dismissive to or outright excluding Bisexuals.
Fighting to be a part of the so called LGBT community only to face discrimination, Biphobia, erasure, etc. from within that group is counter productive to standing up for ourselves.
It seems the best way to stand for ourselves is to stand by ourselves - if those standing with us are not supporting, or are undermining, we are standing in the wrong place.
Not participating in pride is not about hiding and being silent as some have implied, it is about the opposite - not being silenced and made invisible by the rainbow that would rather we didn't exist. Boycotting is about being visible and speaking on our own.
A few things to add :
Boycotting Pride and the "LGBT" in general is not the same as fighting it or starting a war with it. It is simply saying "You don't represent me, so, thank you, but I'm moving on."
The concept that Bisexuals need a defined community is somewhat misrepresenting the situation in that Bisexuals are being judged on having a community and culture by a standard that does not really apply to us. Somehow, we are supposed to have a flag, a parade, dance clubs, etc. because the other sexualities that are not hetero have them. Frankly, the Bi flag is the product of following that mentality - and it is garishly ugly !
To answer a few assertions and questions :
Yes, I have participated in Pride events in the past (even drove a float in the Long Beach CA pride parade a few years back).
No, I am not afraid, ashamed, or embarrassed about my sexuality simply because I won't participate in Pride.
Yes, I have worked at promoting a Bisexual culture outside of the LGBT centre - for a period, I was one of the organizers of BiFi which produced social mixers aimed at Bisexuals in NYC - had a few fun events, but time and resources have taken their toll (but we aren't giving up on it !).
Yes, Bisexuals do have our own day of celebration - the awkwardly named Celebrate Bisexuality Day which is 23 September. If we didn't spend all our time and resources helping the pride people throw their party, we might have something saved up to get our own party on the map.
In short, Bisexuals can create whatever community or culture we need to without being measured by having a flag or a parade or whatever - by ignoring false standards. But we won't get there if we spend our time following leaders that don't want us for anything other than our numbers and financial support.
So, as is often the case, the original premise of this thread has meandered around a bit from the original course - and I wouldn't be too surprised if it was hijacked by design courtesy of a poster or two that seem to hi jack most threads. Sure, conversations take twists and turns, but diversion from topic and distortion of other's statements is not the natural course of conversation. I hope we can keep this conversation going in a broader sense as we really need to stand up for ourselves and show the world that we are not just a letter in an ever growing group of letters which has become the brand of ghettoized sexuality.
I agree with you on a lot of these areas, Djones..... running LGBT groups or L.G.B.T groups takes a lot of time and resources..... its not a simple case of lets have a group and the group is created...... and there are always going to be people that are going to tell you that they know better than you how to do things.... but hey NYC is not where I live and what works here, may not work there......
the work that I and others have been doing, is not based around creating bi groups so that bisexuality is visible, its about providing the community / groups that are asked for by people that would use them.... otherwise its like creating a knitting group for wrestlers.....
yes, pride parades, the groups that we send, represent our community ( LGBT and L.G.B.T because THEY want to go and represent us as a community and their own pride in their sexuality ) it seems to be a hollow gesture to send people there that do not want to go for any reason other than bitch about how they are not represented by other groups....or have people bitch about how we should be represented when they are not representing us, themselves....... we do have people complain about the fact that there is no celebrate bisexuality day events in my area and our answer is simply there is not the numbers to make it work, previous attempts have cost us in excess of $20K and shutting down the main streets in town for a parade for 10 people is not something the council would say yes to..... so a day at the local park is more in line with what the community want, and the right to come along as supporters, friends and allies of the bisexual community ( something we said yes to as it gives numbers )
the flag ? yeah the lgbt community here have chosen to use their own patchwork flag made up of a lot of different patches that represent their community, rather than just their sexuality.... its created a bit of a backlash from some people over the idea that we are just lumping everybody in together..... but thats what the community wanted.... they want their sexuality represented but also the fact that they love other people that have different sexualities, races, cultures and interests..... even the bi community here are not really that hot on the bisexuality flag because to them, its not something that represents them as bisexuals so their flag is one of the rainbow with interlocking rings surrounding one large ring
I think that if there is any forum for bisexual people to show their voice it would be during Pride .. have a bisexual float or booth with a very prominent sign, "Yes, WE DO EXIST" or some such thing - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..
I guess I just sort of have a live and let live philosophy for sexuality and whole host of other things, as long as behavior isn't obssessive or very blatantly damaging to self or others..
Maybe even better - put up a sign - "Free Hugs!" - - hand out purple and blue wristbands or big hoop earrings or whatever..
..well yes, I suppose they could be big enough to be used for cock rings too, but that really wasn't what I was thinking of at first..
..actually I sort of like LDDs idea of promoting pride in sexuality in general - the idea that most folks here in the US giggle like they are in the 6th grade at the mention of the word PEENIS is just funny. these are all parts that most people have seen before.. It's a shame that most folks think of sexuality from what they see in marketing..which is incredibly unrealistic.
Again, the pride parade as a forum is counter productive. It's a fight and a struggle to get adequate representation within this forum only to be given the short end of the stick. That energy can be put to better use outside of the pride movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Know that the pride organizers in NYC chose a gay man, a lesbian, and a trans individual as marshals to represent the LG'B'T community in the parade this year. No effort was made to include Bi representation. This is the MO of the leadership of the LG'B'T centre and pride organizers in NYC. Why fight to be a part of a party that doesn't want us !?! Fight for our own voice, not to be a mouthpiece for those that would prefer we did not exist !
Thanks djones
You raise some worthwhile points.
“Boycotting Pride and the "LGBT" in general is not the same as fighting it or starting a war with it”
This is a good philosophical approach but I am uncertain that you have articulated standing alone will function. The issue of Bisexuals needing a defined community with symbols that the gay community have created is an interesting question. Bisexuals have September 23. On this bisexual web page rarely is there a thread about this day. Why is that in your view djones?
The issue of adhering to values and symbols that gay people have created to define bisexuals is a valid point. Yet, some posters do not acknowledge Bi Invisibility when presented in a documentary. They are more interested in bullying of gays and trans to reflect and empathize on than whether the silence coming from bisexuals is due to apathy or repression of self.
It is an interesting point that New York has representatives of all but bisexuals as parade marshals. In Toronto, I don't think that they identify the sexuality of parade marshals.
A friend of mine saved a special insert in the New York Times that she was reading - it had a full article with the actual word "bisexual" on the cover of the article on the front page. First time I had ever really seen"bisexual" advertised prominently in anything but a swingers catalog..let alone any mainstream media.
and who would represent and speak for us in a way that would not come across as a person that is actually supporting their own agenda,...... who would stand up and represent bisexuality as something that can encompass a sexuality that can have many aspects, many ways of being but one common trait, we are attracted to both genders......Quote:
Originally Posted by djones
maybe the bisexual community do not care who is standing on a podium... maybe the bisexual community want to go to a pride parade and represent themselves and bisexuality without all the drama and BS that is going on with the LGBT people that they have nothing to do with...... and if you want to start a war with the NYC LGBT group that run the pride parade, you go for it..... a lot of bisexuals will not back you up because they are not interested........its not that you are doing anything wrong.. its just that this is your fight and they do not want to be involved in it, any more than they want to be involved in some members constant rants about the lesbians and gays, monosexuals, etc etc etc....
the ability to represent bisexuality and bisexuals is not restricted to a person on a podium.... if you feel that we need a person on a podium, in order to be represented, then you are missing the fact that bisexuality is represented by the people that walk in the pride parade under their own banner that says, we live, love and embrace with acceptance and tolerance..... and they are more visible as representives of bisexuality because they can be talked with, hugged, kissed and loved.....
*gently nudges LDD from the shadows behind him, whispers* "There you are doing that thinking stuff again. Dag nab it hon, how many times they tell us both thinking ain't for us? Ah, now hush. We be alright." *fades back into shadows with a gentle chuckle, accidently on purpose leaves a wooden mug of rum on a nearby table*Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Ho hum! When somebody rants about lesbians and gays, that is coz lesbians and gays are not a special breed that are above criticism, and they CAN be just as bad as any homophobic bigot you'd care to mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDD
Strangely, some don't like that pointed out, yet love to slur bi's whenever the chance arises.:rolleyes:
How comes you don't call the whole Pride event a 'war', but label any bi's attempt at doing the exact same thing a 'war'?
And where exactly do you get your 'most bisexuals' claim from?
If any of that had an iota of truth in it, this thread wouldn't have got past the first post.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDD
Obviously, marching in a LGBT Pride Parade aka 'GAY Parade', doesn't do much if anything to quash the bigotry within the LGBT. Being dismissive of it, doesn't help either. But I expect it gets you a hug & kiss from them at the Pink Flamingo bar, lucky you.:tongue:
Actually it can and does quite often.. gays, lessies, trans men and women and bi men and women, and indeed many str8 men and women for that matter go on Pride parades and attend other pride events... they attend, they meet, they talk, they bloody well argue 2, but that's how it goes in moren just Pride, but remarkably often ther is a meeting of minds and getting to kno one or more of whom we r most critical, intolerant, suspicious and dismissive often leads to tolerance, understanding and acceptance.. have seen it it, lived it and preached it (in a kinda nice athiestic non priestly way).. it isn't easy ver often, and in fact is more usually fucking hard, but it happens and happens moren u and some otha peeps give credit... so I can accept much of wot u say Gear, even in the whole of ur post.. but sometimes about some things u do talk such tosh:eek2:... fostering peace, luff, tolerance, compassion and understanding, Gear, can be and is the hardest thing in the world.. wich is wy so ver few really care about achieving it and think they r better and more right than ne 1 else.... as evidenced by the sheer volume of conflict wich exists in this planet of wich this is but a small, minuscule, almost imperceptible part in the great scheme of human relationships:(......Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearbox
Well, this part rang true in my perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearbox
And it rang true as in saying to represent X does not require Y to be X,Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
or even empathize or care about X.
There are often cases for example where rich Anglo-Saxon i.e. whites
whom "slum" it and take stands for poor African-Americans, i.e. blacks.
The point being those shouting & causing a roar over an issue are not
even affected by said issue. They might be doing it for reputation,
money, sport, genuine concern.
Often, difficult to sort it all. Litmus test being to follow the money,
usually. To me, a sexual orientation does not seem to imply a capitalist
branded commodity, nor are people a commodity or a "resource". If the
great Ones of Power cannot objectify, commodity bisexuality make, earn
no profit they. And that is a scary prospect for them. It opens a big
door.
Shepard: "Look the bisexuals are not falling in line here, being part of
the commodity of the flock."
Foreman: "Well shit, if others see them doing it ... oh no! Boss! Boss,
we got trouble!"
We prove out that human beings are not to be trifled with as
commodities, stock, chattel. We do this the same as the act of living is
indeed a pure action, an act without being a reaction. This is important
for psychological reasons, it disproves Wundt's theory about human
beings warranting authoritarian "control".
This means we do not need the bullshit tyranny we live under. We can
return to being in harmony with nature, entropy. We no longer need to
create order out of chaos, and realize that "the divine", "providence",
"nature", "God" all fancy it being chaos out of order.
But then again, I'm a raving nutter. Best to cover your ears round me.;):2cents:
hugs void....... I know we have to be careful, its the people like us that united the LGBT community at stonewall and look at what happened there...... I know that we are supposed to play * follow the leader * and fight back against the evil gay and lesbian empire using our secret jedi mind tricks and holding something long and firm in our hands..... but I am not sure how its going to work if if Darth lesbian and Sith gay man do not want us there, so we do not go to the parade...... it may be some secret tactic.... maybe at stonewall we all should have disappeared in silence and shown the evil crusaders how much of a force we are to be reckoned with, by being no where to be seen......
maybe a top secret meeting of the bisexual community at the local bathhouse or something with the secret cock jerk instead of the handshake......
pssst, void.... I have a insane idea.... how about we all get together for a dinner.... and invite our * gasp * non bisexual friends and spouses * and sit around and laugh, joke, giggle, pull faces... have a few drinks...... who knows, maybe it will catch on and more people may consider that to be a good and fun idea... then we can roll down the main street in town, roaring drunk and hug and kiss each other...... maybe grab a few bystanders and pull them in with us..... and have so much fun that we plan to do it next year...... tho it is a crazy idea I know and heaven forbid people may realise that we are bisexual and loving it... and that its ok to be bisexual and love it..... and they may join us next year.......
sorry, I got carried away in the moment a bit.... it seemed like a good idea...... maybe it may have worked...... but I know, we are supposed to support our own community first, not our friends, lovers, spouses, allies and the other people in our lives that make life worth living, and shun the people from the other communities because they are not us, therefore they are against us.......
no..... no... not doing it....
void, I love you, I like your wife, I think your straight next door next is hot, I want you to meet my heteroflexible partner, my lesbian / bi sister and her lesbian lover, my gay best friend, my gay flatmate....... I wanna party like its 2014, not not 1968, the year before stonewall..... where is the main street in town......
Round these parts it'd be state route 33. Though now due to all the hubbub of 911 EMS operations it's called something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
A get together sounds like a great idea sometime. If we aren't wanted somewhere, plenty of world we can live in otherwise, least for now, still. Give them another 50 years, we'll all be fracked though. "Gotta get that natural gas to 'place the oil, doncha know?" *chuckling at humanity's futility* We never learn.