US and Universal Healthcare

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Who's a lil smart arse then, hey Falcon??;)

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Dear Fran,

I was merely trying to explain the situation to LA.:grouphug: :angel: <-- He says in a totally innocent voice.
Besides, we Scots (even part Scots) have to try to stick together and help each other out.
ok. yeah. There was a bit of a smart ass in the last sentence. And this surprises you how? :cutelaugh

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Originally Posted by losangeles4all

Much better. I can understand what you saying now.

I guess, I have to agree, that if you accept that you must pay taxes if your government requires it, then you accept that your taxes directly fund the bombs.

I, on the other hand, do not accept that. And, I don't vote. Voting, is an immoral thing to do, if you think about it, especially, for a pacifist. And no, I am not a great moralist either, but, I understand few big, cornerstone good and bad "do"s and "don't"s.

Speaking of a pacifist, I doubt you're one. Because, a pacifist cannot advocate for violence. But you do. Even if that is a consequence of your acceptance of your taxes, in effect, you still do. Basically, you are consenting, that there be a violent jack boot at my door, if I don't pay my taxes. You do know that the tax compliance is enforced by violence, right? A pacifist, cannot consent to violence. A pacifist insists on voluntary action, and may-be a defense against an aggression, but many pacifists even go as far as insisting on non-defense.

The bombs, you do not like, I get it. But, the forceful payments to healthcare, you approve. You, personally, think that such healthcare is a great idea, and, you have your arguments to support your conclusion. And so, you gladly pay "a little extra" for such system to exist. Yet, you have no problem sending a jack-booted thug to shake-up those who have a different opinion. Some kind of pacifist, if you ask me.

It then becomes interesting, what is the ground for you not liking of the military meddling in foreign lands? If they do not comply "our ideas", which we think are great, then we should violently force them to comply, right? For instance, we would allow any of their people to be taken care in "our" hospitals. This great and passionate act on our part, already gives us the moral right to demand payments from all of them. Or, we have an idea that they all must sell their oil for our currencies only. We like this idea, and we have our arguments of why we think that the world would be better off this way. So, when Saddam Hussein refused to spend the national treasure of Iraq on earning US dollars, and demanded gold, the US had sent the soldiers to demand compliance. First time it happened, he couldn't find enough courage and backed out. The soldiers then let him live. The second time he did that, the US literally ripped his head off.

When Lybian Gadaffi decided that the interests of several African nations were different from the interests of US and UK bankers, he served as a major organizing force to bring those African nations to an agreement on their own currency, the gold Dinar. Him personally, would lose a great deal of power were that agreement actually implemented. Yet, he insisted. So, the US and UK bankers, being in a strong disagreement with his vision for the future of Africa not being enslaved by Anglo's fractional reserve banking, decided they have a moral right to demand compliance. They sent in "the patriots" and alas, ole Gaddaffi got raped with a dirty rusted pipe before he got shot.

If you like the idea of forcing other people into compliance with the ideas that you like, you shouldn't really have that much dislike of military action in foreign lands. It is all the same principle, really. I mean, think of it, yes, may-be Saddam and Gaddaffi did think that the ideas of US and UK bankers were bad, but what really mattered was that the US and UK bankers really believed that their ideas were great, and it was that (and your and mine taxes) which gave them the right (and the might) to force the compliance.

sed, tamen diversis, nos suffragium

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Where do you get this stuff?
The first gulf war happened to free the people of Kuwait who Saddam had invaded illegally.
And the US and the UK have not invaded Libya militarily since WWII.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Where do you get this stuff?
The first gulf war happened to free the people of Kuwait who Saddam had invaded illegally.
And the US and the UK have not invaded Libya militarily since WWII.

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According to the TV, yes, you're correct. I simply look a little deeper.
As specifically pertains to Libya, I don't even know what the TV is saying. By that time, I have got long disappointed with the TV, and quit watching it.
I trust you, that we did not invade Libya, if they say so, on the TV. However, the CIA had been organizing, supporting, and leading the gangs that took down Gaddaffi.
Same in Syria, same in Egypt. I would be hard pressed to point out, where this was not the case, actually.

This may-be doesn't count to most people. I was just trying to point out to miss darkeyes, that as shocking as it must be, there is absolutely no difference between her justification for taxing the people to provide for healthcare, and banks waging the wars. In both cases, the attacking group has the idea, and believes that everyone else must be made to comply. As to whether the attacked group supports that idea, no consideration is given.

It is funny how people operate, if you look at it historically. The ubiquitously hated Nazis, too, had a great idea, and although disgusting to us, if one were to ask them, they were pretty sure (the majority) that it all was for the greater good.

I really shouldn't have posted under this topic, I think.

But, it makes me wonder, why is it that the people of minority, in our case, sexual minority, so readily support the majority cause. Haven't they learned that the might doesn't make right?

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Originally Posted by losangeles4all

According to the TV, yes, you're correct. I simply look a little deeper.
As specifically pertains to Libya, I don't even know what the TV is saying. By that time, I have got long disappointed with the TV, and quit watching it.
I trust you, that we did not invade Libya, if they say so, on the TV. However, the CIA had been organizing, supporting, and leading the gangs that took down Gaddaffi.
Same in Syria, same in Egypt. I would be hard pressed to point out, where this was not the case, actually.

This may-be doesn't count to most people. I was just trying to point out to miss darkeyes, that as shocking as it must be, there is absolutely no difference between her justification for taxing the people to provide for healthcare, and banks waging the wars. In both cases, the attacking group has the idea, and believes that everyone else must be made to comply. As to whether the attacked group supports that idea, no consideration is given.

It is funny how people operate, if you look at it historically. The ubiquitously hated Nazis, too, had a great idea, and although disgusting to us, if one were to ask them, they were pretty sure (the majority) that it all was for the greater good.

I really shouldn't have posted under this topic, I think.

But, it makes me wonder, why is it that the people of minority, in our case, sexual minority, so readily support the majority cause. Haven't they learned that the might doesn't make right?

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LA,

I don't even own a TV that works. I swear upon my life that is the truth. I don't usually even look at ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, or MSNBC on the net, unless I want to learn the liberal point of view for something.

I don't own a TV, because of the crap on TV and the fact I have 3 young, impressionable kids. I want to control what they watch. I don't want them watching things like "Real Housewives of Outer Space" (That's the next one). If they like a show and I approve of it, I will download it and we will watch together (They love Power Rangers and I approve. So I download it.).

I said we did not invade Libya militarily. Not that we did not invade Libya. I know for a fact there was a "human rights mission" in Egypt, led by the son of the Secretary of Commerce (or Labor. Not sure which.). What the hell was a son of a high ranking US government official doing in Tahir Square in the days leading up to the "Arab Spring"? C'mon. I did not fall of the turnip truck yesterday. Last week? maybe. But not yesterday.

I know our CIA and NSA stick their nose where they definitely don't belong and as a result, they are often wrong.

BUT. It was not like Bill Clinton and the aspirin factory in Sudan trying to distract from Monica Lewinsky's blue dress.

I honestly have not even heard any rumblings of CIA involvement in Syria. As the English say, that would be a "MAJOR cock up.". But i would not put it past those idiots.

As for the banks waging wars, i would have to see some proof first. Although the left has claimed Gulf War I was about oil, from all of those i know who were involved, it was about Kuwait. Good thing too. My cousin, at the time, was married to a member of the Al-Sabbah family (even though she was disowned by all her family for disobedience, ie not marrying who she was supposed to). She still cared about her family and friends, even though she could not talk to them.

The nazi ideas of the master race were accepted by the German people, because they were terrified to speak against it. Himmler's SS and Krystalnacht made sure of that.

And i disagree. You should have posted. The free exchange of ideas in a respectful manner is a wonderful thing and is totally encouraged by Drew (the owner of this web site.), obviously, as long as we stay within legal borders. lol. Don't want free discussion of illegal things.

Agreed, might does not make right. However, I feel the vast majority of Americans could care less what someone's sexuality is. It is a private matter that should remain behind private doors, of concern only to those immediately involved. I think the Michele Bachmann's and the Barack Obamas are in the vast, polarizing minority on these issues, on both sides. Just live and let live. If someone asks you and you are not interested, a polite "no thank you" should suffice. Whether the asker is straight, gay, bi, or made of green cheese.

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Originally Posted by losangeles4all

Much better. I can understand what you saying now.

I guess, I have to agree, that if you accept that you must pay taxes if your government requires it, then you accept that your taxes directly fund the bombs.

I, on the other hand, do not accept that. And, I don't vote. Voting, is an immoral thing to do, if you think about it, especially, for a pacifist. And no, I am not a great moralist either, but, I understand few big, cornerstone good and bad "do"s and "don't"s.

Speaking of a pacifist, I doubt you're one. Because, a pacifist cannot advocate for violence. But you do. Even if that is a consequence of your acceptance of your taxes, in effect, you still do. Basically, you are consenting, that there be a violent jack boot at my door, if I don't pay my taxes. You do know that the tax compliance is enforced by violence, right? A pacifist, cannot consent to violence. A pacifist insists on voluntary action, and may-be a defense against an aggression, but many pacifists even go as far as insisting on non-defense.

The bombs, you do not like, I get it. But, the forceful payments to healthcare, you approve. You, personally, think that such healthcare is a great idea, and, you have your arguments to support your conclusion. And so, you gladly pay "a little extra" for such system to exist. Yet, you have no problem sending a jack-booted thug to shake-up those who have a different opinion. Some kind of pacifist, if you ask me.

It then becomes interesting, what is the ground for you not liking of the military meddling in foreign lands? If they do not comply "our ideas", which we think are great, then we should violently force them to comply, right? For instance, we would allow any of their people to be taken care in "our" hospitals. This great and passionate act on our part, already gives us the moral right to demand payments from all of them. Or, we have an idea that they all must sell their oil for our currencies only. We like this idea, and we have our arguments of why we think that the world would be better off this way. So, when Saddam Hussein refused to spend the national treasure of Iraq on earning US dollars, and demanded gold, the US had sent the soldiers to demand compliance. First time it happened, he couldn't find enough courage and backed out. The soldiers then let him live. The second time he did that, the US literally ripped his head off.

When Lybian Gadaffi decided that the interests of several African nations were different from the interests of US and UK bankers, he served as a major organizing force to bring those African nations to an agreement on their own currency, the gold Dinar. Him personally, would lose a great deal of power were that agreement actually implemented. Yet, he insisted. So, the US and UK bankers, being in a strong disagreement with his vision for the future of Africa not being enslaved by Anglo's fractional reserve banking, decided they have a moral right to demand compliance. They sent in "the patriots" and alas, ole Gaddaffi got raped with a dirty rusted pipe before he got shot.

If you like the idea of forcing other people into compliance with the ideas that you like, you shouldn't really have that much dislike of military action in foreign lands. It is all the same principle, really. I mean, think of it, yes, may-be Saddam and Gaddaffi did think that the ideas of US and UK bankers were bad, but what really mattered was that the US and UK bankers really believed that their ideas were great, and it was that (and your and mine taxes) which gave them the right (and the might) to force the compliance.

sed, tamen diversis, nos suffragium

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Look babes..am off on me hols in less than an hour so this is likely to b the last post I make for some time.. we have an expression here.. several expressions.. talking gobblydegook and talking through ur arse... u do both and very badly too. Its ok.. we live in countries where it isn't against the law to do either badly or otherwise.. if u'd ever read anything I have ever written about anything of the issues u raise in the above confused morass u "argue" maybe u would understand better.. but I'm not sure u have the grasp or the comprehension to do that...

Fran, you are so right on... Falcon, you are so wrong it's scary!!

Rider,
Where and why am I wrong in what I have posted?

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Originally Posted by æonpax

The Pharmaceutical lobby has an iron grip control of the US government, ergo, the US market and are sucking us dry.

Various studies have found that prescription drug prices are substantially higher in the United States than in other countries. GAO compared U.S. factory prices with those in Canada and found that manufacturers' prices to wholesalers for identical prescription drugs are typically much higher in the United States than in Canada. The price differences are largely attributable to actions taken by Canada's federal and provincial governments to restrain drug prices, not to any differences in manufacturers' costs .

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Quoted for Truth.

Most of what Falcon and DD are saying is Faux News based rhetorical opinions fostered as facts and it is the most egregious sin cast on the American People. Opinion with nothing to back them up and it gnaws like a cur at my heel, but I'll not be tempted into combat with you over it.

Suffice to say that the cuts to Medicare are actually moving money from ONE system to the other and has NO effect on care. It does, however, remove a big MediGap system that didn't actually pay much or often. Then there is the fact that the only people whoa re going to be out in this new system were the people lobbying so damn hard, Big Pharma and the For Profit CEOs of these insurance companies who are now going to be limited in how much money they can devote from what they are paid to pad their pockets. Period. So they started a full court press of BS and not surprisingly, those of you locked in a Red State are screaming socialism and Obamacare is EVIL and LAZY, despite the record of Medicare being about a million times better than the For Profit BS we are having now.

Honestly, I'd love it if you actually read some of Joan's links rather than running a Coax cable to your brain with Rupert Murdock VideoDroming you.

Keep up the good work Fran, you might get some flack but I have your back here...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.

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Originally Posted by IanBorthwick

Quoted for Truth.

Most of what Falcon and DD are saying is Faux News based rhetorical opinions fostered as facts and it is the most egregious sin cast on the American People. Opinion with nothing to back them up and it gnaws like a cur at my heel, but I'll not be tempted into combat with you over it.

Suffice to say that the cuts to Medicare are actually moving money from ONE system to the other and has NO effect on care. It does, however, remove a big MediGap system that didn't actually pay much or often. Then there is the fact that the only people whoa re going to be out in this new system were the people lobbying so damn hard, Big Pharma and the For Profit CEOs of these insurance companies who are now going to be limited in how much money they can devote from what they are paid to pad their pockets. Period. So they started a full court press of BS and not surprisingly, those of you locked in a Red State are screaming socialism and Obamacare is EVIL and LAZY, despite the record of Medicare being about a million times better than the For Profit BS we are having now.

Honestly, I'd love it if you actually read some of Joan's links rather than running a Coax cable to your brain with Rupert Murdock VideoDroming you.

Keep up the good work Fran, you might get some flack but I have your back here...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.

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Nope, Ian, as a matter of fact I don't watch Fox News for a variety of reasons, prefer the cutie named Anderson Cooper, damn shame he's gay... but I am posting based on my current experiences of trying to gain help for my medical bills and my history of working for Federal Blue Cross and Blue Shield which was Administar the service that *gasp* deals with Medicare. Now please try to tell me where I made suppositions about anything I can't prove.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

I care for my fellow humans to a point where I will sacrifice what I have, for them.

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Hey, good for you. I like that. My cell phone bill is due tomorrow. It is $118.00. When can I expect your sacrifice to get here? I have an outstanding doctors bill also. Will you pay that for me too?
As long as we are on the subject, I would like you to suck my dick too. Is that a sacrifice you are prepared to make also?

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Originally Posted by IanBorthwick

...just forgive me for being too tired at these same putrid arguments they raise to copy and paste links to debunk them.

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Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

but I am posting based on my current experiences of trying to gain help for my medical bills and my history of working for Federal Blue Cross and Blue Shield which was Administar the service that *gasp* deals with Medicare. Now please try to tell me where I made suppositions about anything I can't prove.

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So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

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Originally Posted by IanBorthwick

Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...

Medicare and Obamacare are not the same thing, Ian really. I know what I said regarding how Medicare works. I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. Baby Boomers came of age, less money going into pay checks from Social Security tax of 7.65% of your gross wage doesn't mean much when you have a generation that is no longer working and is indeed beginning to draw.

Now would you please state unequivocally what parts of anything I said that are incorrect even if it's just your opinion. Be specific now, if it's not to much to ask.


So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

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Medicare and Obamacare are not the same thing, Ian really. I know what I said regarding how Medicare works. I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. Baby Boomers came of age, less money going into pay checks from Social Security tax of 7.65% of your gross wage doesn't mean much when you have a generation that is no longer working and is indeed beginning to draw.

Now would you please state unequivocally what parts of anything I said that are incorrect even if it's just your opinion. Be specific now, if it's not to much to ask.

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Originally Posted by IanBorthwick

Quoting myself because I don't feel the need to repeat myself overmuch. DD, go back and cite your sources as I explain quite clearly, it's ALL opinion and no fact and you JUST confirmed what I said...

So...waiting on your facts to back this up and how Medicare and Obamacare are the same thing as a matter of fact.

GASP!

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Ian,

I apologize up front, but my patience with this issue and left-wing ideologues is exhausted.

You are a true idiot and moron. I have read all 1990 pages of the bill as it was passed in HR3962 and I also have given links in many of my posts from various liberal media sources, including abcnews, to various summaries that support exactly the things I have said. I made a mistake with the 16,000 IRS agents by not checking my facts and I apologized and gave credit to those responsible for pointing out my error.

I am sorry you cannot see your way clear past your left-wing rote to believe the CBO numbers that keep exploding upwards for the cost of this monstrosity. We already borrow 40+ cents of every dollar we spend. Do you want to make it 50 cents? 60 cents? one dollar of every dollar? WE CAN'T FREAKIN AFFORD THIS DISASTER! Get you head out of the sand or out of Obama's ass.

If you cannot be bothered looking at the links I have posted, then what the hell is your right to post and demand references? Your laziness is not my problem. I have also read most of Joan's links, as evidenced by my posts. If this is not plain to you, go to the eye doctor for an exam. You and Joan seem to be the only ones who doubt the fact I have read her links.

Now, as Gordon Ramsey would say, PISS OFF!

Actually Falcon before you quote someone...get his name right....Gordon Ramsay...not Gordon Ramsey.

Also, I'm Canadian and while our system has its problems, I can honestly say if you need treatment right away, you get it. Sure you can go to the States and get treatment but you better be prepared for the costs.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

<snip/unsnip> I know for a fact that we have for the last 20 fucking years known we were running out of money and like a child procrastinating on homework waited til the night before to hand in a try to fix it. <snip>

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40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble

Bill Clinton tried Health Care reform and the conservative right squealed like stuffed pigs. The Republican/conservatives blocked all attempts at health care reform during the Clinton Administration.

This is not to say, the Democrats didn’t have a hand at sabotaging any HC reform. On February 6, 1974, Richard Nixon introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon's plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and provided a federal health plan, similar to Medicaid, that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income. This was shot down by Ted Kennedy and the Democrats. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States

Jimmy Cater was faced with the same internal problems when he attempted to address this problem.

Two of the things the PPACA is doing to address Medicare reform;

Extend the life of the Trust Fund. Health insurance reform will extend the life of the Medicare Trust Fund by an additional four to five years – and delivery system reforms included in health insurance reform have the potential to keep the Trust Fund solvent even longer into the future.

Reduce wasteful spending. Health insurance reform will also reduce overpayments to private plans and clamp down on fraud and abuse to strengthen Medicare for all seniors. Coupled with improvements in the quality of care, expansion of the health care workforce, and reductions in out-of-pocket costs, health insurance reform will ensure that Medicare will continue to provide the high-quality, affordable coverage that America’s seniors deserve and expect. http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/medicare/index.html

Lastly, a budget battle is taking place right now in congress. To wit:

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Congressional Democratic leaders made clear Monday that they had no interest in averting the bleak scenario if Republicans continued to refuse to soften their hard-line opposition to higher taxes on wealthier Americans. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7019352.story

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Funding is available but is being blocked by the Republicans. Sadly, neither side will touch the military budget which is the single biggest waste of fraud and gross mismanagement. ( See F-22 costs nearing half a trillion dollars for a jet which is still grounded - http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../f-22-cost.htm and http://battleland.blogs.time.com/201...udget-numbers/

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Originally Posted by æonpax

40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble.

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I think it all has been in decline since 1808, if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

I think it all has been in decline since 1808, if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!

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U do talk such tosh at times Voidie... if people feel guilty for not feelin' altruistic then we haven't moved on one iota since humankind first developed sentience and I dont believe that for a second... such selfishness as I have I feel pangs of guilt and so I bloody well should... can we blame rellgion for those feelings? Debatable, cos many religions arent that altruistic and those that claim to be leave a lot to be desired in that score in practice if not in ethos, although usually in that too... such altruism that exists in religion is a very paltry thing indeed. I think u should put down Ayn Rand's dross and read summat worthwhile... the trouble we are in is because of the garbage she wrote and the tripe of others just like her...

Neways.. back 2 me hols.. muah!!!:love87:

My post above of course should read "If people don't feel guilty.." in the first line not "If people feel guilty..".. silly me.. :yikes2:

OK, well my *basic* conception of "money" is that it is a medium for exchange. There is no way that I could rennovate the whole exterior of my house, but I do know how to fix computers. However, I may not know any contractors who need their computers fixed. So instead I fix some computers for my boss at work, he gives me some money I can then transfer to a construction contractor who is experienced in carpentry, etc.

The other thing money does of course is amplify power - I can donate some money to a cause I support, which allows them to keep the doors open one more month. A company, or alliance of companies can spend resources to make legislation more favorable toward the industry in which it practices.

The guilt/debt thing is actually seperate from the money - and some of us learn to be altruistic in spite of the guilt, not because of it.. Forgiveness is not just being altruistic, in a lot of cases it is actually in our own best interest. "In giving we receive" is not just pretty words - it is what enables a whole community of people to amplify an effort more than a single person alone.

Divorcing yourself from the guilt revolving around money, that's actually a really good idea. Work because you can contribute in a meaningful way - and even with your problems I think that is still possible in some capacity.

There IS an issue with overborrowing and the fact that the people in the transaction are so insulated from each other. Used to be that people just didn't buy something if they didn't have the savings to pay for it.

Trading debt notes is something I can sort of get my head around, the stock market on the other hand is a very strange mythical animal, it as if people are trading on the very POTENTIAL of ideas..

I'm not really posting about universal healthcare because I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that topic - I believe that ultimately it is a good thing to provide this for people, knowing that there are PLENTY of decent hard working people who at some point in their life will have lapsed or insufficient private coverage. if people DON'T buy into it they get fined - and that is your incentive for this not to just be a complete "freeloading" type of system.

I don't know how we'll pay for it, I don't know how we'll pay for the two wars that Bush/Cheney dragged us into either, I don't know how we'll pay for social security - if people would've kept their hands off the money it would've been fine but they had to be greedy.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

I think it all has been in decline since 1808, if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.

And yes, aware Hamilton's actions were a response to Jefferson's. Hamilton however was a federalist and collusive to centralized banking, debt. Frankly, I'm seeing a pattern.

Religion doles out guilt punishment to steer folks to altruism. Money becomes metaphoric form of guilt via debt. We are rallied in fear against the 'other', to suggest otherwise one is shamed as not one of 'us', yet another face of guilt.

Fuck your guilt people. I do not share it nor do I want to. Seems you use guilt in making wars, which in turn makes more guilt, more 'needs' which can sell 'solutions' for. Hey, point blank, fuck that!

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There IS an issue with over borrowing and the fact that the people in the transaction are so insulated from each other. Used to be that people just didn't buy something if they didn't have the savings to pay for it.

Trading debt notes is something I can sort of get my head around, the stock market on the other hand is a very strange mythical animal, it as if people are trading on the very POTENTIAL of ideas..

I'm not really posting about universal healthcare because I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that topic - I believe that ultimately it is a good thing to provide this for people, knowing that there are PLENTY of decent hard working people who at some point in their life will have lapsed or insufficient private coverage. if people DON'T buy into it they get fined - and that is your incentive for this not to just be a complete "freeloading" type of system.

I don't know how we'll pay for it, I don't know how we'll pay for the two wars that Bush/Cheney dragged us into either, I don't know how we'll pay for social security - if people would've kept their hands off the money it would've been fine but they had to be greedy.

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I say this with as little disdain, condescending as able. Take a few moments and read what you wrote.


The connotation of guilt and negativity is rife through out what you have written. I am glad you can make sense of debt. I cannot.

All I see of debt is a whip and chains for some oppressive master/s. You know of C's educational background. The last she mentioned it to me, that debt stands at over $80,000. For what?

She has an associates degree from a private Christian ran college for liberal arts. She had considered a psychology, or anthropology major. After four years of the indoctrination there she realized that nothing was being taught. The system just continually rehashes the same lessons you get in high school or G.E.D..

Yes, I know fundamentals and basics are vital to learning. I also know that engaging new ideas, new research, new methods, and doing actual work are as well. She had the former only and not any of the later. She inquired if this was how things were supposed to be. The reply was a resounding yes and emphatic implication she would be better served not asking further questions.

Learning is supposed to involve asking questions. So, she spent $80,000 to learn it's better to not ask questions? I guess that could be used as an argument to support George Carlin's statement. The government gets exactly what it wants out of education, public or private. And my wife, bless her works minimum wage the past decade. We look forward to her employee stock ownership maturing, if the 'greedy' bastards don't find a loophole out of it.

To speak against debt is something we should be ashamed to do? Are you not the one whom tells me everyone deserves life, happiness? How can one be happy in chains, real or perceived? And education only serves my wife to keep her complacent, or is it diplomacy you call it? We're supposed to feel guilty for trying to live the same dream others have?

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u should put down Ayn Rand's dross and read summat worthwhile... the trouble we are in is because of the garbage she wrote and the tripe of others just like her...

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I should read Ursala K. Leguinn instead, or Rowlings, Atwood, Bach, Castanada, Verne, Wells, Poe, Shaw, Thomas, Anne Rice, Hemmet, Christie, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle?

She caused trouble? What did she do, think?

I can be altruistic out of a sense of humanitarianism. Even it seeks to indoctrinate one to altruism. Religion is but one tool I agree. We also have governments, social groups, media and so on.

I do not contend altruism is the whole of the evil. There is benefit inherent in caring for others. Please do not tempt conflating what I'm saying. I am saying altruism is again, a tool like religion, used to instill guilt upon people. I'm quite sure you've heard the phrase, religion is opium for the masses. What can you do with addicts? You can control them.

That is what I'm saying. I'm tired of this addiction. I thought, if I am not Christian why suffer a Christian's guilt? Then, I looked broader and deeper into the abyss, drinking. Most religions teach altruism. Satanism really does not seem to, but why bother with it? I mean honestly, if we're giving up an addiction, why not go cold turkey? I am sure Satanism has a means of guilt tucked away somewhere and if not, well, I'll stand corrected. See? Guilt, still there.

Beyond the above 'dross', what do you suggest I read. Once read about how newspaper guys were smuggled into U.S.S.R before it became that and started a revolution to achieve that as a result. Believe it was Marx and Lennon(sp), not the same as John Lennon. Also read about how a lawyer named Garrison made a full trial mockery out of something called the Warren Commission. It was interesting to see a connection between Mafioso and U.S. government be written out.

I think I probably read, or have read too much. It is as bad as five minutes of television now. First two minutes, got the story pegged, outlined. Next three minutes is glassy stare. Bug lights are more fun. Sticks in the eye, more so.

Come on over, dull this damnable mind. I grow weary of it's fruitless machinations and memories of places untraveled, sights unseen, depths unfathomed. I'll even knock out the orderlies, wardens. We can have real fun then, dress up Clementine the mule as Thatcher and hold a lolly parade with tea and rum.

Tired of these fucking chains.

N.B. In case it is not clear, which it likely is to those whom would understand, that last paragraph is pure fancy, sarcasm, snark as you will. Although, I'm sure it'd be nice to visit with darkeyes if she chose so to visit. Oddly enough, I'd like her to visit even if not sexually. Truth spoken, I think she's quite attractive and would not mind a sexual visit. My point though, I could enjoy a visit either with or without sex. Guess I'm freaky like that, which by now, I guess darkeyes is aware of that freakishness. Is now. ;)

I was once out of debt, and then I went back nito it, before I retire I expect to be back out of it again and with any luck that is the only reason I will be able to survive at that point on retirement income. I probably won't have children so I expect to be alone and probably have to sell the house to afford long term medical care. So in the end sum game, I will probably net zero. I sure hope my contributions in this life have to do with more than money because if that is the only reason I am alive I would have failed miserably by the very end.

If I didn't have the ability to do that I suspect that I would be staying with extended family as so many other people have started to do again.

I didn't say that debt was not a problem, quite to the contrary. What I said was the guilt and debt are two seperate things. There still may be a few communes left in Oregon if you want to try it.. Institutionalized socialism apparently doesn't work that well either - what you need is one of those subsistance economies.

My comment about reserve notes - well the system is the way it is and i doubt I will be the one to bring it down or change it. I heard an interesting statement on the radio this evening - 99.2% of the financial transactions that occured in our economy over the last year involve speculation and trading, the remainder (0,8%) are capital investment. After hearing that I have to say to myself, no wonder why the future seems very bleak and the infrustrure around me is literally crumbling apart. So now you know what happened to the stimulus money that was given to the banks eh? It was supposed to go for investment in our economy..instead a lot of it went to bolster some bank's balance sheet.

A banker who called into the program had one word to describe the problem, "Greed" - on all fronts - finance, labor, industry .. and he said that although there has always been greed the difference in the last 20 years is that it has become "illegal greed" - lack of regulators, etc. are causing a huge problem.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Look babes..am off on me hols in less than an hour so this is likely to b the last post I make for some time.. we have an expression here.. several expressions.. talking gobblydegook and talking through ur arse... u do both and very badly too. Its ok.. we live in countries where it isn't against the law to do either badly or otherwise.. if u'd ever read anything I have ever written about anything of the issues u raise in the above confused morass u "argue" maybe u would understand better.. but I'm not sure u have the grasp or the comprehension to do that...

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It's just too bad I can not write in the same disabled manner you do, or I would certainly try to, just to "speaka ur langage". But, alas, I'll stick to English.

You're right, it is probably because I just don't have neither the grasp, nor the required comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Dog62

Hey, good for you. I like that. My cell phone bill is due tomorrow. It is $118.00. When can I expect your sacrifice to get here? I have an outstanding doctors bill also. Will you pay that for me too?
As long as we are on the subject, I would like you to suck my dick too. Is that a sacrifice you are prepared to make also? [/FONT][/SIZE]

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Actually, no. I bet she won't help you. In fact, I bet she's aiming for your pocket!

These days, if you mean to harm someone, you'd say "I'd sacrifice for you". It's just what that means.

I have an emergency bill on my table right now, $1734.12. You think she would help me? I bet she won't!

ObamaCare is theft.

Well that has been the problem with ALL of the legislation for the past 7 years hasn't it - if ObamaCare was actually put into effect maybe there WOULD be some relief from medical bills but people have been fighting tooth and nail against that and against nearly every other piece of legislation that has come up.. Is it any wonder that government seems ineffective?

Emergency care in this country sucks - when you call it an emergency there seems to be a nice surcharge for bypassing the system.,and half the time all I see people doing in the ER is just sitting around.

This is the "best" health care system? That seems strange to me because most of the people I've talked to lately are frustrated by it. Being the "best" does not mean that there's no room for improvement. Or maybe like so many other things here - the "best" healthcare goes to the people can afford the best., The only problem is that the definition of "best" is very subjective.. Kind of like the name of the pub that planned the American Revolution in Boston. Last time I checked it was nearly ALL of them.

As for the question of the value of a degree, it has gotten even worse in the last few years - so many "institutes" where you can obtain a "degree" with "guaranteed job placement" but all they are really interested in is parting you from your money..a very bad example of the free market economy at work. Is it the government's fault that all of these private businesses are profiting off of people?

If you feel guilt in your life to the point that it is disabling your ability to function then yes, that is a problem that needs to be addressed. True altruism comes out of a sense of compassion, not out of a sense of guilt. Greed seems to be the real problem, a heathy society requires both give AND take.

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Is it the government's fault that all of these private businesses are profiting off of people?

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An argument that it is could be made, as it seems the elite may do as they desire. Been the same song for a long while. Rich get richer, poor keep on getting poor. I'm sure along the lines somewhere a lobbyist for these for profit education folks manages to grease the palm/s of a politician. Follow the money. Money we consider our god. It never lies.

Sorry if that is a jaded and cynical view. Just seen too much bullshit like this happen, keep happening. The whole system is tanked. Destroy it, build anew. People don't want to hear that, it's 'unamerican'. Can you hear me, or do I need to turn it up? _.!.. ..!._

"Howdy stupid, meet stupid." If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

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Originally Posted by æonpax
40 years, actually. The US knew 40 years ago funding for Medicare was already in trouble.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

I think it all has been in decline since 1808, if one is honest. Thank Alexander Hamilton.
<snip>

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`
Help me out here. In 1965, Congress created Medicare under Title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide health insurance to people age 65 and older, regardless of income or medical history. What does Alex and the 1808 depression have to do with this?

I can say that PPACA will slow down the growth rate of Medicare expenses from 8% to 5 to 6%, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report. http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/11-148_20100421.pdf Considering the millions of baby boomers that are joining Medicare, this results in savings of up to 123 billion dollars in 10 years, providing PPACA is not changed or eliminated.

Furthermore, the PPACA and the Reconciliation Act contain provisions designed to reduce Medicare program costs by approximately $390 billion over the next 10 years through adjustments in payments to certain types of providers, by equalizing payment rates between Medicare Advantage and fee-for-service Medicare, and by increasing efficiencies in the way that health services are paid for and delivered.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

Can you hear me, or do I need to turn it up?

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These go to eleven. - Spinal Tap

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Help me out here. In 1965, Congress created Medicare under Title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide health insurance to people age 65 and older, regardless of income or medical history. What does Alex and the 1808 depression have to do with this?

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Well, the 1808 depression was brought in part due to Hamilton in effect slamming Jefferson. Hamilton argued that private corporations are granted the same sovereign rights as people. He also instituted a drive for central federal banking, owned by a private corporation. The first two such banks were chartered via congress for twenty year periods only, as a need existed and the debt incurred was paid off quickly.

Hamilton's banking system changed that. It helped foster a need, which really did not exist, Jefferson was embargoing against Brittan and Hamilton justified the bank to offset losses for farmers, merchants. His bank was to exist indefinitely, charge the government more sophisticated compound interest. And since his bank was a private corporation, seen as a person, the government was limited as to what it could do effectually to curtail it. Similar to what we have now economically with the 1%.

That one percent can pretty well do as it pleases. They can cut social programs that benefit the welfare of the people, and it's all nice a legally pretty. They can steal, or rather buy elections and of course it's all on the up and up. We buy it as it's a system created to give us an illusion of choice. You can be Dem or Rep they tell us. You could be a third party if you wanted but face reality, a third party has no real power and won't have ever. No, we want scandalous, high treason chasing, double-speaking politicians who promise pies in the sky while wrenching the knife deeper into your back.

Hamilton's groundwork laid a foundation which allowed J.P. Morgan to buy government later on. And the Morgan family of bankers bed the English banking crown ensuring divide and conquer remains a mainstay tool of control. Morgan bought government via bailing it out financially and increasing its reliance on the federal reserve, Hamilton's little darling all grown up national bank.

If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.

Apologies if I'm not citing facts. There's lots of documentation if you really dig through stuff. I'm stating opinion to state opinion and not debate. No point debating what is done. If having an opinion makes me an asshole, at least I'm honest enough to know my opinion likely stinks, same as most anyone else. You can share the opinion or not. Not here to win supporters, to cause a rally, just talking.

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Originally Posted by elian

These go to eleven. - Spinal Tap

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I don't have enough middle fingers! - Marylin Manson

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Jesus built my hot rod, said it was all about love. - Ministry

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It's all Spinal Tap. - From a movie about Rush, possibly attributable to Neil Perl

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*grin* We should really keep the genes of good drummers locked up in a cryogenic safe. Drummers it seems are prone to disasters, Spinal Tap went through at least six.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.

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Well since, as I said before - money amplifies power I can very clearly understand how it is used to influence the world. I think it is a mistake to ONLY cite the 1% - as if they are the only ones who have control. Do you think the "1%" would have elected Obama?

Since now you have the Corporation as a person you also see the entities within them treating the survival of their business and its profitability as a matter of life and death. So many heavily capitalized businesses who are past their prime, as their cash cow product is dying what do they do? They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work, instead they LEGISLATE - protect all of their "interests" so that their cash cow from the glory days can go on and on.. I remember when this countrry put money into science and technological development but now the general populous is not interested in any of that "hard stuff" unless it means they can have some new device that makes it easier to think for them or watch their favoritie latest "reality" show a little easier.

For the decline of personal interaction I blame the walkman..because up until then you had to learn to interact and get along with other people on a personal level. Now here comes this gadget and for the first time you got to listen to "your own personal:" music...and it hasn't gotten much better since then. Hell in 2012 we pretty much have "your own personal" everything - marketers are happy to give it to us, but I think it makes our society worse off. People don't have to say hello to their neighbors, it's the government's job to make sure that everyone complies with the law. If I have a dispute with my neighbor I call the government and they take care of it. If my neighbor falls on hard times I don't have to worry about them because I know that the government has a safety net to protect them..thank goodness I can keep worrying only about myself and not what is happening to my neighbor.

I'm waiting for the day that people DO unplug the headphones and step back INTO reality instead of just watching it on TV.

The problem with business today is that everyone makes decisions in terms of the short term profit...and they have ever since the war started. This "short-term" thinking has pervaded almost every aspect of society. I don't want to write laws and policy governed by the need to make short term profit, or just surviving 'til tomorrow. I need policies that look at a very broad picture 3, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now. I'm sorry if there is some short term pain but we need to form a society that cares about the people it raises.

Come to think of it, "They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work" pretty much sums up most of the problem I see with everything these days.

"Come to think of it, "They don't innovate because it costs money, has high risk and is hard work" pretty much sums up most of the problem I see with everything these days."

I, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and many others totally disagree with this statement.

Both Apple and Microsoft have very large legal departments that have no problem at all protecting their interests. Apple DID innovate at one time, but they are slowly moving away from an engineering based culture. As late as 2000 you were able to download the operating software for a Mac Plus from their web site. Now they are more interested in selling software as a service.

Microsoft, past the coding that Bill Gates put into his BASIC interpreter and a few early products, really haven't very effectively used the handful of innovations they were able to come up with on their own. Some of the stuff on research.microsoft.com is pretty neat, but they seem to have trouble actually integrating it into things. Most of their big technology has been acquired from other, smaller companies or other business relationships.

What Microsoft DOES have is really great corporate marketing. "Wait! Don't buy competitor product X!, we have that too - it's compatible with everything else we make and it's coming out in the next big verision of Windows!" is a line I have heard over and over again..meanwhile the small company that truly took a chance doesn't get the sale. They are big enough that they don't HAVE to innovate, they just buy any company they want..and the ones they don't want, they run into the ground.

Sorry for posting "off-topic". I don't have any problem with the "free-market" per se, except when it starts treating people's lives as just another market commodity. ..and since when is it a free market when you can attempt, and succeed at influencing the market with legislation? The problem with something like healthcare is if you were TRULY sick then without ANY legal or government obligation NO insurance company would cover you..except at a rate that is astronomical if that. Aren't we a big enough country to be able to do something about that?

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

Well, the 1808 depression was brought in part due to Hamilton in effect slamming Jefferson. Hamilton argued that private corporations are granted the same sovereign rights as people. He also instituted a drive for central federal banking, owned by a private corporation. The first two such banks were chartered via congress for twenty year periods only, as a need existed and the debt incurred was paid off quickly.

Hamilton's banking system changed that. It helped foster a need, which really did not exist, Jefferson was embargoing against Brittan and Hamilton justified the bank to offset losses for farmers, merchants. His bank was to exist indefinitely, charge the government more sophisticated compound interest. And since his bank was a private corporation, seen as a person, the government was limited as to what it could do effectually to curtail it. Similar to what we have now economically with the 1%.
That one percent can pretty well do as it pleases. They can cut social programs that benefit the welfare of the people, and it's all nice a legally pretty. They can steal, or rather buy elections and of course it's all on the up and up. We buy it as it's a system created to give us an illusion of choice. You can be Dem or Rep they tell us. You could be a third party if you wanted but face reality, a third party has no real power and won't have ever. No, we want scandalous, high treason chasing, double-speaking politicians who promise pies in the sky while wrenching the knife deeper into your back.
Hamilton's groundwork laid a foundation which allowed J.P. Morgan to buy government later on. And the Morgan family of bankers bed the English banking crown ensuring divide and conquer remains a mainstay tool of control. Morgan bought government via bailing it out financially and increasing its reliance on the federal reserve, Hamilton's little darling all grown up national bank.
If you cannot understand how money has been, is being, and will continue being weaponized then, something may be amiss. I think healthcare issues, farming issues, equality issues all demonstrate economic warfare as a concurrent theme. Most have origins and in my opinion, 1808's depression serves as a good toe hold starting place. It truly began before then I'm sure.
Apologies if I'm not citing facts. There's lots of documentation if you really dig through stuff. I'm stating opinion to state opinion and not debate. No point debating what is done. If having an opinion makes me an asshole, at least I'm honest enough to know my opinion likely stinks, same as most anyone else. You can share the opinion or not. Not here to win supporters, to cause a rally, just talking.

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`

Interesting perspective. You are, of course, referring to “The Fed.” In a manner of speaking, you hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, the Feds control over money, outside of US government oversight, can be linked to most, if not all, of our country’s financial downturns….and as always, the upper 1% are enriched and feel they are above the regulations of government and those who elected them, that are meant to curtail any activities which are not in US citizens best interest.

I am a member of the bourgeois, but am also extremely unconventional.

http://i.imgur.com/6e8Ek.jpg

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Originally Posted by elian

Both Apple and Microsoft have very large legal departments that have no problem at all protecting their interests. Apple DID innovate at one time, but they are slowly moving away from an engineering based culture. As late as 2000 you were able to download the operating software for a Mac Plus from their web site. Now they are more interested in selling software as a service.

Microsoft, past the coding that Bill Gates put into his BASIC interpreter and a few early products, really haven't very effectively used the handful of innovations they were able to come up with on their own. Some of the stuff on research.microsoft.com is pretty neat, but they seem to have trouble actually integrating it into things. Most of their big technology has been acquired from other, smaller companies or other business relationships.

What Microsoft DOES have is really great corporate marketing. "Wait! Don't buy competitor product X!, we have that too - it's compatible with everything else we make and it's coming out in the next big verision of Windows!" is a line I have heard over and over again..meanwhile the small company that truly took a chance doesn't get the sale. They are big enough that they don't HAVE to innovate, they just buy any company they want..and the ones they don't want, they run into the ground.

Sorry for posting "off-topic". I don't have any problem with the "free-market" per se, except when it starts treating people's lives as just another market commodity. ..and since when is it a free market when you can attempt, and succeed at influencing the market with legislation? The problem with something like healthcare is if you were TRULY sick then without ANY legal or government obligation NO insurance company would cover you..except at a rate that is astronomical if that. Aren't we a big enough country to be able to do something about that?

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Apple iPhone and iPad are not innovations?
Microsoft Kinect is not innovation?

Legal departments, when used properly, are a good thing. Do Microsoft and Apple always use their legal departments the right way? Hell no.
Marketing is important to garnering sales. And you are right, Microshaft has an incredible marketing department, but some of their more "strong-arm" tactics truly suck.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

`

Interesting perspective. You are, of course, referring to “The Fed.” In a manner of speaking, you hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, the Feds control over money, outside of US government oversight, can be linked to most, if not all, of our country’s financial downturns….and as always, the upper 1% are enriched and feel they are above the regulations of government and those who elected them, that are meant to curtail any activities which are not in US citizens best interest.

I am a member of the bourgeois, but am also extremely unconventional.

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Got to love 'em. And yeah, the Federal Reserve Bank, a private corporation bank which does seem to be be protected legally is whom I was referring to. In God we trust. Like the image, reminds me of article I read about a Russian ponzy schemer whom did roughly the same as the Reserve. Similar occurred in China as well, in the form of daily communal lotteries for loans.

As for you being unconventional, my jury is still out, sweetheart. ;) Do you like rolling around in pine tar and broken glass?

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"At this point we don't see a double dip recession. We see continued moderate growth." -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Apple iPhone and iPad are not innovations?
Microsoft Kinect is not innovation?

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At first glance the iPad and iPhone seem to be very innovative, but I don't think they are in the same way the Newton was, or the first powerbook. The problem with that is some of the innovations are so subtle I may not notice them - like the very broad aspect LCD display.

People had already done multitouch before apple came out with the iPhone and iPad. (I need to build me one of these .. http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/6428/#39682)

Apple's prowess was in making a cell phone and a tablet PC that works like a consumer appliance..it's not really any harder to use then a toaster - and some toasters look pretty snazzy too. The other thing they have is leverage - Steve Jobs said "If you want to sell our products, you will have a monthly data plan with no contract" and the cell phone carriers listened.

Kinect was bought from an Israeli company (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/19/ki...ehind-the-tech).

OK, so I'm sure that I'm waay off topic now, I'm not even sure that my original response was specifically targeted at any one company, but generally speaking.

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:

Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.

What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.

Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!

Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.

Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!

So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.

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Originally Posted by JP1986UM

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:

Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.

What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.

Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!

Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.

Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!

So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.

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JP,
Fantastic post, except for one thing.
You forgot to thank Clueless Harry Reed and Brainless Joe Biden! How could you? lol

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Originally Posted by JP1986UM

Speaking for the medical side of the equation:
Good luck getting a doctor when you show up with your Obamacare card. We won't be taking you. Well, 40% of all current doctors won't at least.
What does that mean? Hey, glad you asked!! Longer wait times for the few that will. Many are opting out of Medicare by the end of the year as we speak. Specialists all over are pointing that big assed middle finger at the political establishment in a salute to freedom and a lack of paperwork! Yes folks, good luck getting a doctor, because if you are in an area where few doctors will take you with that crappy reimbursement package, you'll be lucky to get that gnawing aching pain in your abdomen seen in time to wonder if its reflux, or you have gallbladder disease.
Sure you can spit up food all you want, sorry we can't see you for at least 4-5 months because all these companies dropped their HC plan to pay a less costly fine and shunted all their employees onto Obamacare! Ask for it by name!
Need that emergency surgery? Sure it will get done.
Need that elective surgery? Welcome to Canada!! We'll put you on a list so long it will make you want to go snow boarding in Saskatchawan! In July!
So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!Thank you....the Obama Administration and Nancy Pelosi.

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While this is your opinion which I will respect, unfortunately you choose not to back these opinions up with facts…which is your right. So please allow me to provide you with a few facts.


1) A quick summary of the PPACA benefits – http:// http://docs4patientcare.org/_literat.../PPACA_Summary

2) This report (and the link to Media Matters contained within) debunks an outrageously skewed study funded by a Tea-Party affiliated group called the Doctor and Patient Medical Association claiming that 40% of the US doctors will not be taking patients covered under the PPACA - http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2...o-do-a-survey/

3) Canadians overwhelmingly approve of their own healthcare system; 90% of Canadians support public health care - http://www.medicare.ca/wp-content/up...nanos-poll.pdf

4) Here’s a great article written by a Republican; How I lost my fear of Universal Health Care - http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.co...al-health.html

5) If you need accurate and factual information on the Canadian Health care system, go here, Canada Health Act Annual Report 2010-2011 - http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/pubs/.../index-eng.php

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So enjoy that costly fix that will soon bankrupt the entire system! Who cares?!! Then everyone will be miserable with you!

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You know, we could borrow from the defense budget to help pay for healthcare and education. We could have done so all along. Having a standing military force is actually not mandated by the constitution. Our military should be there only when congress declares war. Oh wait, I forgot presidents of late having used military for illegal actions, conflicts, and ultimately wars.

Quote:

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I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

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But honestly, Canada does not appear bankrupt. Even though I swore the above, I realize an expression rings out. Its an expression patriots hear a lot. "America, love it or leave it." I do love America, or did. It has now become corrupted and can no longer live to the great dream it once did. It is not the fault of the people. The people were mislead, robbed and denied power. Dare I say the people were even brainwashed? Jingoism can do that.

So, as my wife says she is serious about November, we're planning on leaving America. I do intend to officially renounce. If I'm not here, why be bidden to the laws and taxes of here? The wife does not know about renouncing yet. We loved America. We cannot fight, will not fight to simply live and be happy any longer. I been fighting since five and nothing for it. Time to take my marbles and make a new home.