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The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
Thank God. Finally some sanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by biwilliams
EXACTLY Annika. THEY ARE MURDERS. Nothing more, nothing less. Until someone PROVES otherwise. Every murder is tragic. But to post here insinuating LGBT bias in the murder is disingenuous and stupid until the facts are in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annika L
WHAT??????Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have absolutely had it with you!
MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.
Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate.
But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.
I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.
And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?
That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.
You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!
Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that?
Murder is illegal and needs to be punished.
No, see I think you missed my point. If they were murders, nothing more/nothing less, then you'd never have heard of them and we wouldn't be talking about them. The only reason we've heard about this case is that these women were lesbians...and I have no problem with that. I *didn't* hear about the straight Catholic guy murdered in Colorado...and although it's equally tragic, I'm ok with not having heard of that one, 'cause straight Catholics in Colorado are not in my community, and I recognize I can't hear about and grieve *every* victim...I'll let his people grieve him. But to me, the fact that they were any stripe of LGBT was sufficient reason to post the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondfw
Personally, I disagree that Aeon insinuated that they were motivated by LGBT bias...she merely entertained the obvious possibility. I would certainly like to hear the followup on the case...is it ever linked to LGBT bias, or is it determined that it was drug-related, or otherwise entirely not hate-motivated. It would have been interesting to see if Aeon would have posted that followup, had all this bashing not occurred. As it is, I couldn't blame her if she was too busy/distracted fighting fires and/or sick of the apparently inevitable backlash to do it.
Tenni,Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
I apologize to your friend. That was rude of me and uncalled for.
Texas is definitely ... different. I was raised in Massachusetts. So concealed-carry licenses are totally foreign to me. BUT, that is exactly WHY
the criminals think twice. They never know who is packing. I can find a gun in Canada, the Philippines, or any other nation on Earth, if I want. So can the criminals. Arming citizens who have been through a serious course on gun safety is a FANTASTIC way to make criminals think twice.
64%. i am not doubting the stats, but that is surprising to me. I would have thought a lot more were due to drunk driving.
Your friend obviously has his wits about him. But i am referencing things from the standpoint of several Canadians I know who are down here in DFW, Austin, and San Antonio. As well as several friends in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec who have expressed opinions about the state of national health up there and have expressed desires to come to Texas.
As for my attitude, I am ex-military. I STRONGLY believe in the attitude of "PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER!"
I did make personal attacks and i apologize most sincerely. That is not me. I love a good, intelligent, debate. And if yer frien has a prblm with wearin a kilt, he should talk to this amer of scot PROUD descent! lol.
As for my attitude
i totally agree elian. After 9/11, things were amazing. It was an "ALL FOR ONE" mentality. People came together in amazing ways. 6 months later, the same bloke who saluted you on the highway in rush hour is giving you the finger.Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Personally, i still ball like a baby on every 9/11 anniversary. I came so close to losing family and friends. My ex and i actually watched the second tower be hit from her OB's waiting room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondfw
WHAT?????? You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have absolutely had it with you!.
Calm down poindexter. You are being childish now
MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.
I'm not a trained psychologist but I do recognize abhorrent behavior when I see it and your reaction here is commonly called "flipping out."
Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate. But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.
What you say and what you actually do, are two distinctly different things.
I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.
Meh!
And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.
Whatever you say buddy, is OK by me
You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!
Meh!
Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that? Murder is illegal and needs to be punished
As I said before, the perpetrator here should be tried and if convicted, punished to the full extent of the law. However, I do not believe in your kind of "mob justice" nor "capitol punishment."
"En este mundo cruel nada es verdad ni es mentira,
todo es segun del color del cristal con que se mira"
-
In this cruel world nothing is truth or lie,
everything depends of what colour is the glass you're looking through
To a very large extent, I blame this toxic and intransigent political atmosphere we live in. Case in point, today's announcement by the Supreme Court upholding the Affordable Care Act...or as many call it, "Obamacare." I just left a site where people were ripping each other up over it. All the selfless solidarity brought in the wake of the 9/11 disaster is gone. Unfortunately, this is just another facet of the human condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Apparently Rush Limbaugh was quoted on the radio yesterday saying that people are going to lose jobs over the ACA - I would like to know how. They are actually going to need a massive influx of data entry, IT and administrative people in order to implement a lot of the provisions. If anything, this bill might make it easier for small business to hire people. No, I don't think the bill is perfect, but I'm surprised as heck that we ever got the bill past the insurance lobby to start with. I already heard a few of the insurance CEOs saying, "We like some parts of the bill, we'll keep working on it." Great, while *I'm* working for a living, they can send millions of dollars and an army of lobbyists to help congress "clarify" it for the American people. The BEST part is they use my premium money to do it. Limbaugh is the same guy who kept railing, for two hours how the tires on all the cars in America were going to blow out because Obama suggested that you could save 2MPG in gas by adding a few more pounds of tire pressure to each tire - which I have done for years. I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours. These media outlets, and now corporate astroturfers have a vested interest in getting people to listen, sometimes it is as if they really don't even care what they are saying, as long as they get the media sponsorship. It is really hard for me to imagine what "politics" was like pre-9/11, because people are feeling pressured and it has gotten that much more abrasive since then...I think we need to stop the trend of having no room to disagree. We have 24 hour news channels, but really - there isn't always 24 hours worth of news. Why exactly do we NEED 24 hours worth of news?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Differences of opinions will always exist. Problem here is that we are losing our national "esprit de corps" which has resulted in increased incidences of, to put it mildly, "uncivil behavior". A study was recently released on this subject - http://www.webershandwick.com/civili...iveSummary.pdf I'm just as much to blame as anyone else.
I don't like Limbaugh nor his despicable approach to punditry but he's only a small cog (albeit obese one) in a far larger problem. Were I conspiratorial minded, I might say there are clandestine forces at work deliberately keep "we the people" apart and at each others throats....the strategy of "divide and conquer" or perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "divide and control".
I found an article, A Teen Lesbian Couple Is Shot and Left For Dead: What Matters Most Now Is How We Respond ( http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/articl...response-matte ) which makes an excellent case as to why everyone, not just the LGBT, should be concerned as to why or the reason those teen lesbians were attacked. Given the present contentious ideological divide, such thoughts will be falling on deaf ears.
*chuckles* Often tell myself I could do sportscasting or reporting on political stuff. Theses folks just seem to presume to tell what happened as you just saw it, heard it from the horse's mouth.Quote:
I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours.
Example the President speaks. Then, you get two dozen people telling you forty different things an off handed "um" during the speech mean. I always take it as something a person does to indicate a considered pause, a point of them um, gathering thoughts prior to continuing, or honestly admitting to not knowing an answer, or how to answer. Yet it apparently has a horde of alternate unforeseen meanings.
So yeah, I could do that for sure. Oh wait, no I cannot as it involves cameras, not allowed to be filmed or photographed.
The "excellent case" this article makes involves a direct comparison to the Matthew Shepard case, where there was overwhelming evidence that the murder was hate-motivated. If it turns out that this more recent murder was hate-motivated, *then* I'll agree it makes an excellent case. But in the current absence of such evidence (aside from the circumstantial fact that they were lesbians), then whereas I don't find your OP to imply a hate motive for this crime, I do find this article to imply that very strongly...which causes me to question your reasons for posting it, since it only makes a valid statement (let alone a good one) if you buy that this crime is hate-motivated. Given the mode of discourse we've had in this thread so far, it makes me wonder what value you saw in something so purely inflammatory? Are you trying to get rid of certain people by giving them a coronary?Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
I make no apologies that my OP did in fact imply a direct causation between the incident involving the lesbian teens and the conservative anti-gay bashing happening in the US. It is an opinion I will defend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annika L
They key phrase to the article I posted was, to wit;
Quote:
Activists in the LGBT community – and, really, any organized community that faces discrimination – have learned that it is important for there to be a swift and clear response and raising of awareness about these acts. Awareness coupled with public mourning, grief and a demand for justice are necessary.
Awareness of the possibility that such a crime may have been done becuase the women were lesbian. The article also pointed out that the LGBT was quick to react to this. Had the fact that these women were lesbian either deliberately been hidden or otherwise obfuscated, does one think the LGBT and other similiar civil rights groups would been quick to react and spread the word of this incident around? That question, btw, is rhetorical.
Such "awareness" is not just confined to the LGBT. Anytime a black or Latino is shot by a cop, there is a reasonable assumption that it may have been racially motivated. With women, in hiring and promotion practices, all things being equal, it reasonable to assume it may be becuase of gender prejudice. Those of the Jewish faith whom have also been discriminated against, keep themselves aware of the possibility of violations of their rights. Proving such things, of course, is another matter. Still, being "aware" that such a possibility exits, is also called "vigilance."
Once the facts are out, then we will know for sure. But until then, I think the article summed up what I believe, quite nicely;
Quote:
The world has changed so much for LGBT youth in America since 1998. But even all of that change cannot stop a hateful and violent individual from committing such a disgusting act. It breaks my heart, but no matter how much work has been done to make the world better, nothing accomplished could protect those two girls that awful night.
What we can do in the wake of such tragedy is to make clear that such evil, such careless disconcern for two teenage women, does not occur without our notice.
Aww, come'on honey - I'll give you your soul back when I get the film developed. Actually that was the other thing I hated about 9/11. Every network said, "Ok the mayor of NYC is going to speak now" - and instead of just letting us hear him speak they all had to talk over his mic to tell us what he was saying..Quote:
Originally Posted by void_dweller
DId you see the comments today from Rex "don't worry, we have enough oil" Tillerson?
Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
You may think me off my rocker for this, but honestly - I DO believe we are very much in a psychic war that is AT LEAST 10 years old. "If you aren't with me than you MUST be against."
I tried to convince those that be of what they would be losing, lifted up young people as examples - "THIS is what you are losing" - over and over. For a while it worked, but there exist a group of "folks" whose lust for power is much like a horny group of vikings just back from a rampage who just happen to be parked right next to the Swedish Bikini Team tour bus.. The power of the examples I gave eventually paled in comparison to the ferocity of their appetite for lust and power.
It's sort of a once in a lifetime thing, I doubt I could do that again and have it mean anything. But know this, despite whatever you read, whatever horrible feelings you may experience in this life..there are still some who believe in the power of humanity to do good things.. The power of compassionate love is the only true thing powerful enough to stand up to the wickedness of this world.
Well personally, I can have empathy for all families and communities that go through a loss but if I stopped to acknowledge every time someone was murdered in the world there wouldn't be time for anything else in life. It is a natural part of being human to feel an affinity toward a person that we have something in common with. Just what is wrong with that? You don't want to read about it? Then don't read this thread, problem solved.
Hopefully despite the viciousness the point has gotten through and aeon has now felt the reinforcement of the other point of view.
Like I said before, it's not an easy lesson to learn, to be patient, in the face of something as terrible as a loss of life. I learned that lesson for myself, again, very recently with the Trayvon Martin case. The ugly truth though is that while everyone else was "marching for Trayvon" - I was marching because I wanted a change.. I am tired of the spiritual violence that people perpetrate against one another. I am tired of the poorest people not having a voice, and the poorest people (economically) were the ones marching that day..the people in the majority couldn't figure it out. All people have something of value to contribute, just by being who they are. The difference is, the poorest people SHARE what they have but are happy to know people, the majority GUARD it, and are miserable trying to keep it from everybody else.
based around what I have read on the net..... there was a witness that has given the police a description of the male believed to be responsible.... and the surviving lady is stable and may be talking with police.....
I hope the families have answers and that the police are able to resolve the situation as needed...... and for one family, I hope that they find closure and some form of peace....
Elian,Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
Nothing is wrong with feeling affinity for those we have things in common with.
However, if you notice the threads Joan has started on bisex (many of the threads, not all), she often posts things to cause a riot under the guise of trying to cause debate and discourse. When you start flaming people, and not ideas, and calling names, it is not a debate or discourse anymore. That is what she does eventually to everyone who has the temerity to post disagreement with her stances.
She posted her original article knowing full well that the investigation is not even complete, never mind a trial. Yet she has no problems associating the article with right-wing hate speech and with hate crimes caused by the sex of the victims. She also claims to know journalism. If she does, then she would know that what she is doing is taking an absolute tragedy and spinning it to fit her political agenda. She just doesn't like being called out on it. Honesty is a bitch. It's there whether you want it to be or not.
The tragedy is one woman is dead and another fighting for her life. Who cares if they are Lesbian? or Bi? or green with pink polka dots? (ok. people would probably care about the last one. lol). Until it is shown to be a crime perpetrated because of the orientation of the victims, orientation should not even be mentioned. Not in the original article. And not by Joan.
Well the strange thing is, even if that is what is going on I am grateful to have a forum to express the ideas that I am working through. Despite the words I have learned a lot in the last week just thinking out/about the things going on in this thread.
"I make no apologies that my OP did in fact imply a direct causation between the incident involving the lesbian teens and the conservative anti-gay bashing happening in the US. It is an opinion I will defend."
I am uncertain if it is wise to want to defend a possible incorrect reason why someone was murdered. Elian is correct about the Treyman situation. The man was judged in the media and racism has been connected to Treyman's death. We do not know the full circumstances. New information is being released about the accused and there is no trial yet.
In the next province to me, there was a recent horrific murder by an accused white man murdering an immigrant Chinese student man. It is horrific because the actual suspected murder was posted on the internet after being videotaped. The accused then dismembered the victim (not sure if videotaped) and mailed body parts to two federal political parties head offices and an elementary school thousands of km away from the murder location. (hands and feet). The torso was found outside of the accused apartment building. The head has still not been found.
The accused left many messages /images of himself on websites and there was a media reported reference to a gay relationship between the two initially in the first week . Now, the media is quiet about any sexual orientation connection. It is bad enough that his parents have had to come to Canada to get some of his body parts without being overwhelmed by statements about his possible sexuality. The accused may be bisexual and other statements have been made about his mental condition by experts. The bisexual possibility is no longer mentioned in the media. The accused was caught within a few weeks in Germany. He has been returned to Canada.
The media reported speculations are only made when substantiated by evidence and there is no statement being made about a sexual orientation issue or lovers. The police remain quiet to some extent. Waiting for the trial is the best thing to do. Both with the Magnotta (Canada) accused, the Treyman accused and in this teen murder case.
It would wise for all of us not to speculate that this teen murder is a hate crime at this point. I agree with that and what Annika has posted (#96). The OP seems to not agree and yet still originally agreed that such a tragedy should not be judged until more facts are in. It is even a further disconnect to extrapolate this murder to be caused by extreme radical anti gay propaganda at this time? It is a shame because such actions do not support her claims of intelligence and academic discourse. They do support her blog about how to win an internet argument to some extent. It is possible that some people get so intertwined with sexual political philosophy that it blurs their ability to be impartial at times?