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I abhor the ongoing violence in the Middle East -- because so many innocent persons are suffering because of the political ambitions of a few. But when we look closely, we see all sorts of realities that don't always make the papers. From the U.K., here is an article concerning ties to terrorism regarding the so-called "humanitarian" group that sent the ship in. It was a deliberate attempt at provocation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7142977.ece
Now who owns the times I wonder?? Far be it for me to accuse such an illustrious publication of bias..Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionatePhD
..as it happens I have links to terrorism.. I know, or knew and liked two people who have been a part of what we call terrorist organinisations.. one an x IRA guy who spent time in prison for his activities.. and when at uni I was friendly with another who was an active supporter of ETA.. and shock horror.. I even shared a few snogs with him... and Kate's parents knew Yasser Arafat, Hanan Ashrawi and several other Palestinian leaders which I didnt know until recently.. her dad also met Golda Meyer and as a child, in of all places, Palestine, David Ben Gurion.. now there are some names to conjure with.. now these links obviously make me a terrorist and also Kate's late parents, and maybe even Kate by association.. but that isnt the point Im trying to make..
Even if we accept the accuracy of the report.. just as the military of many nations are employed in humanitarian relief which are just that.. is it so hard to believe that groups which are claimed to be "terrorist" are so beyond redemption that they have no feeling for their own and can do the same?
Twyla/Others,
I do not see who these two statements can be true at the same time:
1. Israel gave up Gaza for peace
2. Israel controlled Gaza's airspace, borders, and who goes in and out.
With a territory as crowded as Gaza is. I cannot call it anything but an open air prison.
I am sorry, but nothing pisses me off more than the racist Israeli policies except for someone blatantly defending them. Stop with the victim mentality, Israel has been offered complete peace from EVERY single Arab state and they refuse to take it. They want the whole land but without the people who are living on it. How do they deal with that? they separate them out with walls and restrict their movement. These are facts on the ground. Talk to any Israeli and ask them one question, have they seen any of the Palestinian town? Most would say no. Most would have visited a settlement up the hill while haven't even seen the town below. They travel on Jewish only highways to Jerusalem and Telaviv. Those who did see how the Palestinians are fairing under Israeli occupation understand.
Anyway, do your research. Find out what is going on with an open mind.
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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
Who does own the Times? I'm in the US -- and if we are wary of the Times because of its ownership, are we also wise enough to study the ownership of the other publications that may represent the other side of the political spectrum?
Hardnbubbly, you have no idea whether my mind is open or not. I am not a person who just sits on the net and goes omg it's on the net, it must be true. I'm a person who loves history and I can tell you that since it's inception as a state in 1948 Israel has been assaulted by all the Middle Eastern countries that refuse to recognize Israel. Even before they were given this area for a nation, the nation of Israel has a long and varied history. When you are attacked immediately upon the declaration of being a country by all of your surrounding neighbors... yeah that's an offer of peace. The Islamic nations have made it their goal to wipe both Israel and the Jewish people off the face of this earth.
I do not condone terrorism from anyone but it's clear that Israel even fired a warning shot and the ships did not heed it. 5 out of 6 boardings went without trouble, only the last boat did the activists attack the Israelis. If that hadn't happened they would have been turned back and no one would be dead. But it's too much to ask for any semblance of intelligence from people who are blinded by their hatred and preconceived notions. So get pissed that I support Israel, get even more pissed cause I support human rights for everyone.
Yes we are..Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionatePhD
..but for your information a certain Australian/American media tycoon owns the Times...
Lets look at this democracy America insists on supporting...
http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAE...ST%20STATE.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...state-1.225919
http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-ri...acism-1.234831
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm
Yes its a lovely place to be and to support.. any other country than Israel the US would be taking a much different moral stand...
Twyla, I knew exactly which piece of that post, to which you were referring. I will admit that I did not word that as well, as I could have done. I had not long been awake and was still sleepy. My apologies if my words came over badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits
What I was trying to say to Paul, was that this forum was about more than bisexuality and bisexual issues. People are more than their sexuality and in the normal scheme of things, are interested in and want to talk about many subjects, from politics to gardening
People, whatever their sexuality, are interested in discussion. Paul seems to think that the subject we are discussing, is more suitable for a political forum. I wonder does he think this about all the other subjects, that I mentioned.
I still believe that you are misunderstanding my words. Though badly phrased, that paragraph and the rest of the post, was trying to say that where discussion of different subjects is concerned, one's sexuality is of no importance and when politics and religion etc, are talked about, on this forum, the conversation will be basically the same as any other site, where such things get discussed.
I was trying to put forward (and badly), that if any of us go on to political forums, religious forums, etc, we are unaware of the sexuality of those posting...unless we ask them (which would be odd, unless the subject was about sexuality), or if another person says what their sexuality is. Therefore, because sexuality, is unimportant when discussing many subjects, such as this particular subject, the attack on the convoy......this site is most definitely a place for a serious subject to be raised.
Even on this site, nobody can be entirely sure about the sexuality of every single person, proving that our sexuality is of no importance, when discussing politics etc....unless the politics etc, has some bearing upon things which affect the LGBT community. I could keep on going around in circles....trying to explain, one badly worded paragraph and end up making the the point I was trying to make, even less understandable.
So, I shall stop and put the misunderstanding down to me being half asleep at the time of writing that post and the USA and the UK, being two peoples separated by a common language.....and sometimes a very different understanding, of the words we utter, than what those words are meant to convery.
Apologies......for the bad grammar......it's hot.....I've been to town and I am tired.
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Originally Posted by darkeyes
Thank you for these Fran. two of them refused to load, but the second and fourth did. The fourth link, in particular, is very interesting. I fear that, if put before them, a few million people from the other side of the pond, would probably turn their heads away, rather than read, what is on that page, which the link leads to.
Now was I a little previous? Since it seems Israel did carry and use automatic weapons... possibly in response to shots fired at them but possibly not... but it does seem that the hand to hand fighting claim may have been exaggerated... I await with interest what is yet to be revealed..Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
Try them later Canticle me luffly.. in the meantime try this one about kids educational books in Israel... its a bit old, but not much has changed..Quote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
http://www.washington-report.org/bac...9/9909019.html
You stated it very well and I quite agree. If she can not acknowledge that TURKEY set this up, she is just plain kidding herself because of her ideology. She is blinded to reality because of her own hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by celticmagic
seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
Who was it lost lives in an this of piracy? Who is costing lives in an illegal blockade? If, just as an example, North Korean commandos tried the same thing in similar circumstances by boarding an American ship you would condemn the ships crew then as you condemn the crew of the relief ship now.. and you would applaud North Korea for its bravado in stopping the convoy???Quote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
..and never lecture me about disregard of human life, Sunny Jim.. it isnt me that supports a racist state which disregards just about any international convention it chooses and slaughters human beings with impunity.. yes Israelis are human.. so are Palestinians..
Yes the "peace" activists were the ones dying. They decided to attack the IDF members, often before they had even detached from the rope. You should be happy only 9 died.
Since Israel controls the border Gaza, they can blockade it. Legally. When Gaza no longer has weapons to fire at Israel, and when Syria, Jordan, and Iran no longer are supplying them with RPGs and automatic weapons, the blockade will end. And, since they can't have weapons shipped in with "relief supplies"...
The flotilla was warned. Repeatedly. They were also given the opportunity to have the "relief supplies" delivered in (after a thorough inspection, of course). The flotilla refused.
The rest of your post was hard to tell who you were accusing of what, so..*shrug*
Pasa
At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.
But ... the fact remains this incident took place in international, not Israeli, waters. So the Israelis had no right to do what they did.
And surely it makes sense that the Israelis couldn't be trusted to pass supplies on to Gaza when they are clearly hostile?
To which ''she,'' are you referring.......Fran, or myself? And pray tell me......who is it, that is full of hate and therefore, blinded to reality. You really should be more specific, when addressing such issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
I cannot imagine that Fran would hate anyone....anyone at all, in the true sense of the word, for she will understand that hate is a negative emotion, and hurts the ''hater,'' far more than the ''hated.''
However, we can hate, loathe and despise the things that people, organisations, governments, dictators etc, etc, etc....do, initiate, or take part in.
My feelings about ''hating,'' would be exactly the same.
I have never before, heard of Turkey having bad words or bads relations with Israel. Indeed, Turkey, as a secular state (even if the majority of the population is Muslim), is described, as one of Israel's few friends (depending upon how deep that friendship goes), in that part of the world.
Please remember that Turkey is a European country, desperately wishing to join the EU (foolish people), and I cannot see that the country would jeopardise it's chance, of joining the EU, by becoming involved in actions, likely to cause problems between Israel and itself.
I really do have this strongly held view, that the same could not be said, about the government of Israel. Israel believes it has the God given right, to do exactly as it pleases.
So.......who is the 'she'.....and who does the 'she,' have hatred for and what is this ''ideology,'' of the 'she,'' of which you speak. Your post didn't really expand upon anything......so unless you can explain what you mean, it sort of counts for nought.
Why on earth do you bring the USA into it? What does it matter which country is or is not an ally of the USA. Is there something so very special about the USA, that all countries should be it's ally and think well of it's policies and actions. I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
Israeli forces will gun down innocent civilians, including children and think that they have the right to, merely because they are Israel. The inhabitants of the artificially created Israeli state, are not part of the indigenous population. They have been gradually shipped in, over the years.
By the way.......if the people on board that boat....were scared to hell.....just what the Israeli forces might do to them, I can fully understand them arming themselves....in whatever manner.
As for commandos sliding down ropes and being fully armed...or whatever.....when this happens...do not the commandos....of any country....have guns loaded and ready......and are they not trained to be able to swing those weapons into a user mode, as soon as their feet touch the ground, or whatever surface, they are landing upon???????????
Well said, Fran.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........piffle!!!
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Originally Posted by jamieknyc
You're rather obscure in your postings.....aren't you!!
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Originally Posted by Gina7777
Well said, Gina. I guess things which are obvious, to the rest of the world, just elude the USA.
1) The term Palestinian in 1918 it simply means an inhabitant of what was termed at the time 'Palestine', Some of the inhabitants of The Palestine were of the Jewish faith and some were not. The British did not move Arab peoples around as suggested. In fact, the Jewish population was the one that was growing incessantly in the region through immigration from the end of WWI (not WWII).
As The Palestine began to be subdivided, the Zionists continued to make themselves felt in the intention to take territory exclusively for Jews. secular unrest occurred. The British resisted the armed Zionist fighters (They would have been termed terrorists then) in their attempt to take over land to form an exclusive Jewish State. Britain aquiesced to the idea of a separate Jewish state
"... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country...."
Meanwhile, Jewish immigration pressure continued and holding areas in other lands were used to delay the effect. Eventually Israel was created. It continues to exert a Jewish demand for more land through its selective population pressure.
2) To attach responsibility to an entire nation for the activities of a band of its citizens invovled in personal initiative is just daft. So Turkey as a nation is not responsible for anything that happened.
Turkey may well assume responsibility in any subsequent venture but that is another story and it will not change anything that has happened so far - Israel should not have boarded the boats in international waters.
Who boarded the boats? Israeli Soldiers boarded the boats. Now we all know that soldiers, conscripts or otherwise, join the ARMED forces just to tour the world and have exciting holidays. There was absolutley no expectation that these soldiers who were members of the ARMED forces were armed in any way. So defending oneself against such soldiers was entirely unsporting of the people in the boats. Then magically these unarmed soldiers produced guns and shot people dead.
.
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Originally Posted by Hephaestion
Thank you Heph
This is absolute rubbish Jamie.. a Palestinian meant a native of Palestine.... if u want a shitty population movement to to swamp another.. any Jew anywhere may become an Israeli citizen and qualify for residency.. no one else has anything remotely like that right.. and several million have taken up that offer from just about everywhere.. Asia, Europe, the Americas and Africa.. with Palestinian arabs being shunted out of the place in droves and those born in the coutry who are arabs who were driven out have no right of return..... those that stay are discriminated against, abused and treated as scum by the state of Israel. Israel is simply a racist state.. Israel is not quite Nazi Germany.. but it certainly learned a trick or two from it..Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieknyc
Sure they did, Fran.... did they borrow the ovens too? Really this is getting beyond a joke they are not racists. Racism is based on race, Jews are Jews due to religion. They are a Jewish nation as promised when it was first set up in 1948. All they have done since inception is defend themselves against the Arabs who want to destroy them. Over and over again they have been attacked and they have not only repelled they also took parts of the offenders territory. Hence the whole issue with the Gaza Strip. There are Muslims in this world that have called for a Jihad on Israel. Not because the nation did anything wrong but because they are Jews. Yet there is listed on the Israeli tourist site information about Israeli Muslims, who live and practice in Israel without fear of reprisals from Jewish neighbors. So yeah they learned a thing or two from the Nazis, they learned what hate does to a nation and they are reaching for peace to their Arab neighbors only to be rejected again and again. I feel for them greatly. They were dropped in the middle of Arabs and were probably not expected to survive let alone thrive.
Religion or race, to treat other people as they do and as a state to treat their own citizens of one race as they do is racism.. don't make excuses for it, Twyla.. as many seem quite happy to do.. I do not tar every Israeli Jew with the same brush, because thankfully a large proportion of the Jewish population share the distaste for what the state does as I do, as indeed do many Jewish people outside of Israel a few of which I know personally, but the Israeli state is a racist state.. Israel's own human rights organisation accepts that.. but of course they are activists and therefore terrorists and to be safely ignored as nuts... any state which acts as it does internally (and externally for that matter) can never avoid that accusation... I doubt that in 1948 the UN would have sanctioned the creation of Israel had it known just how it would treat arabs.. it certainly would not now..
How Israel treats the Arabs??? How ISRAEL treat the ARABS? Have you not been reading the same world news I've read all my life. I'm sure Israel should have just let Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq walk all over them and send them to their deaths. Those deaths they escaped at the hands of the Nazis. Yes, I'm sure you'd welcome someone wanting to slit your throat and your kid's throats and then burn the evidence with open arms and a pot of tea before you "talked it out".
They defended, get over it, Fran. They defended and it offends the Arabs. If the Arabs don't want to lose perhaps they should not attack a tiny nation made of people with a backbone of steel and the nerve to match it. Israel has my respect and nothing you can do will change it. Israel doesn't butcher women and children for sport, Israel hasn't held a captive for so long that questions are raised about him even still being alive. Israel has a reputation of repaying blood for blood and then some. What the fuck did the activists think would happen when THEY attacked the soldiers?
Lose the rose colored glasses, they don't fit that well on the Fran I know and love.