Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.

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Originally Posted by Annika L

Now I don't *exactly* recall the line about the coffee...but what the hell, you've got Rummy and you did make me laugh, so it's your call! Where and what time should we meet?

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Would love to reach over and gently lay a hand on your shoulder as I've been keen to have done in the past. Had a friend tell me, I could come to GA to see him. He excused himself to get the door, there I was. Still not sure how I used to do that, just did. Lately, seems whatever rules effect normal folks are catching up to me. "Void, you just cannot be in two, or two thousand places at once. It's inconceivable and rude!" Or so some muckity muck tells me.

Let's us leave that open. Definitely want to pay a visit though, hell may even get a notion for a *gasp* beer.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

I think I've been splashed with some of that "nutball paint", but not in a violent sort of way. lol

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*void snickers and blushes* I almost doused elian with nutball paint earlier. Darn wires got in the way. Un/fortunately he went to bed, without me is the unfortunate of it. Can assure you if it were just a matter of druthers, mine would be in his bed.

[QUOTE=falcondfw;232572] I think the first headline/notation says it all - Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting.
REPORTING is up. That is why you hear more about it and why the statistics have risen. Yes, that is a good thing. Crimes against people should ALL be reported and responded to. Not just because they are black or latino. Not just because they are Bi, Les, or TG. But because they are CRIMES! [/QUOTE]

Selective reading and on top of it, just the headlines. Did you check out the stats on that link? Of course not. They indicate a a RISE. Did you check out the stats and graphs on the other links? Of course not. You don't want to facts and data to interfere with your fantasy.

Get real dude. Next time you post, at least try to give me the false impression you actually read something.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

"First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian."

1) ok. pardon my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference?

"What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation"."

20 no. that makes it sensationalism. News would be - "Two women found shot in the park". Even in Houston or Dallas, that doesn't happen every day. That makes it news. Adding color or sexuality makes it sensationalistic spin for a political purpose.

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1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

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Originally Posted by biguy71

1) I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. 2) There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.

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1) Discussion.

2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting - http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html

3) See post #51 in this thread. - http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13117-Teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-the-head-in-Texas&p=232552&viewfull=1#post232552

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Originally Posted by æonpax

[/FONT]
1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

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Joan,

On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.

On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil. What Fing planet are you from, anyway?

I am tired of your BS games. Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic. THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act". This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and you are a fool if you do not agree.

Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.". Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life. And YOU are spinning it!

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

The point is TWO WOMEN ARE DEAD. That is what is important. In your undisquised political agenda, you seem to have forgotten that.

Whatever the case with this case is, I feel sorry for the families and friends of these two young ladies. The clues will come to light eventually, or they wont. Point is, two families are grieving, and one's life willnever be the same again. :(
Spirits bless the remaining young woman, and let her healing begin in her heart and mind soon.
Cat

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Joan,

1) On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.
2) On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil.
2a) What Fing planet are you from, anyway?
3) I am tired of your BS games.
3a) Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic.
3b) THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act".
3c)This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and
3d) you are a fool if you do not agree.
4) Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.".
4a) Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life.
4b) And YOU are spinning it!

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1) Why are you playing dumb? If you do not know the difference between "sexuality" and "orientation", you should not be in this discussion/argument. I'm not here to educate you or anyone else. Furthermore, you have completely failed to answer any of the questions I have posed to you. So please, give it a rest.

2) Yes, please PROVE that the headline and article I posted at the top of this thread is "Sensationalistic" You claim it is but provided no proof or insight as to why you think it is.

2a) Don’t tempt me to say where I think you’re from.

3) Too bad, so sad. It might help if you knew how to mount a constructive argument. This site can help you - http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i.../how-to-argue/

3a) Then produce “Anyone” to explain to me why they think the headline/article is spin, as you are unable.

3b) Who said it wasn’t? That has nothing to do with this discussion.

3c) I’m in a very magnanimous mood right now. Check this link out - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&g....0.nZJL3JpJkew – and count how many news sources, many mainstream, use the phrase “teen lesbian” in headlining this incident. I count well over 350. Tell me why these people are wrong for using that phrase…if you can.

3d) Warning…please try to keep this civil.

4) Why are you quoting the “faux news” logo? That has nothing to do with this. Again, please remain focused on the topic.

4a) I feel the same way too which is my I do not get my news from faux, MSNBC or CNN.

4b) You are repeating yourself. I asked you a few times to prove any of your accusations and you avoid doing so.
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Synopsis – Let me help you out here. You are giving me your “opinion”. Opinions are NOT fact. An opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. Opinions are never right or wrong they are merely a figment of what someone believes. However it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments.

I have asked you to support your opinions, either with fact or logic. You have refused, which you can do. There is no rule that you must. However, if you are going to argue that what you say is fact, not opinion, then you have to support that, which you have again failed to do.

It is good to respect another's opinions but at the same time, a person does not have to believe them or give them any credence. As you have provided absolutely NO evidence, proof or even a logical argument to bolster your opinions, I am free to dismiss them in the manner in which I choose. In your case, I absolutely reject your opinions based on lack of any evidence, whatsoever.

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

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I think this pretty well sums up where you are coming from.

This is rather pathetic, really two young women are dead. The reasoning behind it is as of right now unknown. So why are people here in these forums arguing among themselves? Why not let the detectives do their jobs and find out who is responsible and why it happened. Instead of bickering like children perhaps a bit of respect towards the two young women is more prudent. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation was, it doesn't matter where they are from. All that matters is that what happened was life shattering. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to drag it out in the forums is rather childish especially over a topic such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to the families that were impacted by such a tragedy.

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Originally Posted by elian

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

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There is a human dynamics behind every...and I mean EVERY news story out there. It is so omnipresent that many times we fail to remember that. 9/11, for example was all about human courage, suffering and perseverance. But it was also much, much more than that and went beyond the scope of the human condition.

Many of the news articles I posted here in reference to the teen lesbian assault, brought up the human side of this. Interviews with parents, classmates and loved ones, but it would appear no one read those articles and/or chose not to comment on what they said. Instead, I see here arguments about the semantics of reporting...not to mention those with other ulterior motives.

To report news, only through the pathos aspect, renders such a story incomplete and is an egregious disservice to those who read news for a complete story. Hundreds of innocents are killed in the Mideast becuase of war and drone assassinations. Their pain and suffering is no less or worse than those who loved the teens assaulted in Texas...but that is not the whole story.

I agree, let's not discard the human condition here but at the same time, lose sight of the fact that this incident, is being felt my many, to be part of a larger picture and want to be informed about it.

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Originally Posted by elian

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

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gonna go off topic to address what you said.....

I was once a soldier.... one day, I had a guy in my sights, spotter gave me details and I was about to pull the trigger....and something happened in my mind.... the psychs reckon I snapped... I never snapped, pulling the trigger would have easy ( something I was to prove later in life )... instead, I stopped thinking in terms of US and Them.......

maybe its taught to us, maybe its a instinctive thing, maybe its just a survival trait.... but we constantly do the US v's THEM, thing... and dehumanize everything, including ourselves, in order to think that way.... and its a bit like this thread.... there has been talk in other sites about how it could be a hate crime, but what if the other people were LGBT as well, something that has happened in the past.... a US vs US situation... LGBT against LGBT... suddenly there is no US vs THEM issue, and most people do not know how to handle it, so they adapt a new approach of " we could not be like that person, we are * normal * people " and so people find another reason to *dehumanize the other person and ourselves, by creating a new * sub group *, the normal people Vs the not normal people....

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc

what went thru my mind that day, was that I was about to put a bullet in another person, a son / brother / nephew / uncle, somebody with skills, abilities, feelings thoughts and emotions, a sexuality / orientation.. not just a enemy combatant that was going to do the same to me.....

its the same thing that went thru my mind when I first read the thread... they dehumanized the ladies into lesbians... and people reacted with the * crimes against the LGBT * instead of a life lost and another adversely effected..... we the offended and angry v's the ( possible ) offender/s that deserves justice.....
the only time that we mostly stop dehumanizing people is when its the ones we care about, cos we actually know them....and even then, we will say things like its time that the LGBT stop suffering at the hands of other people... and forget that the LGBT are more than capable of doing it to themselves and us.... cos we are no different to the rest of humanity, we just like to dehumanize others so we can like think we are and use that as the reason that society does to us what it does......

hugs elian

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc

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What you're describing sounds like something called attachment to aversion, maybe at least from a Buddhist perspective. I have seen much the same as you, subtle differences but in general principle, the same visions. Find it a shame humanity cannot, will not mature enough to unleash itself from this attachment. Of course, know I'm a great one to speak.

Also in case it has been missed, I find this incident quite tragic. My best thoughts and wishes to my rock are being sent to the families. Here's hoping the young lady fighting makes it and can provide a map to the aggressor/s. Let us set aside differences and share that hope. Seem to recall someone telling folks that faith can move mountains.

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

annika, I respect what you are saying...

personally, I would have focused more on what happened, with the intention of seeking information about what happened, as its not something that happens every day in texas... as it is the type of tragedy that stands out from a tragedy where the police have all the info they need..... and yes, the fact that they were lesbians and lovers could have been put in a more tactful way.....but I am not sure that it would rate the attention that its getting if the headline was worded differently, cos a lot of people may have briefly read the headline and not the article....

one of the first articles I read about the tragedy was about 7 paragraphs long, the last paragraph was about what happened, the first 6 were about how they lived in a dorm and were lovers for 5 months and how the parents and friends felt about them being lesbians.... and that really got at me, cos it was more about their sexuality and their personal life, than it was about what happened..... and to me, that was just so wrong.... it came across like the only reason it was newsworthy was cos of the sexuality.....

but yes, agreed, the LGBT community have a right to know about things like this.... trouble is a lot of things like this, go unnoticed cos nobody shares them with the rest of the LGBT community....unless they make headlines on the level that this event has..... its why I mentioned the other two events in my posts.. and noticed that nobody else had mentioned them.... one of them may be australias biggest anti LGBT crime that country has ever seen.....

this is the one about australia
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/austral...ay-hate-murder

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Originally Posted by Annika L

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

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Unfortunately, this issue, as being discussed here, has the stench of political and ideological hypocrisy brought forth by its objectors. There are those here who hide behind the idea that the victims of this crime should not have been identified by their orientation, which is lesbian, then claim to be concerned about the rights of those in the LGBT. There is a big dichotomy here.

First, it was the police report that mentioned the females were lesbians ( http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/26/...shot-in-texas/ ) and that was obtained from one of the victims parents. It was also verified through classmates and friends. All the reporters did was copy the police information.

Second, this issue is being reported by all the major networks (AP, Reuters, ABC, CNS, NBC, CNN, BBC, et al) as being an assault on "teen lesbians"...except for one network....FOX, which refuses to identify them by their orientation. I'm not surprised considering their obvious ultra conservative bias.

I respect the opinions of those who claim some kind of altruistic objection to the fact these victims were identified as lesbian but despite their unsubstantiated and politically motivated protests, the story...unedited, is gaining its own momentum as a possible crime against a homosexuals.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Tenni,
You are about the rudest SOB on this site and i am tired of your BS.
I don't make assumptions enough to paint a whole society based on what I see in the movies and based on what one idiot friend says.
I prefer to do my research based on facts and make up my own mind. Obviously, this is too difficult a concept for your frozen brain to handle or maybe you just don't have a mind to think with on your own or maybe it is living in the socialist paradise of Canada. Prepare to be assimilated!
I also have friends from Canada down here who love it. As a matter of fact, I worked with one of them for over 10 years in 4 different companies that had us travel from Florida to Colorado to here. So screw what your friend says.
I've been nice up til now, but I don't play doormat to anyone.
If you don't like me or my opinions f off. I try to only debate the topic and not attack the person, but when personally attacked ,,, the gloves come off.

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Falcon I do wish to apologize for connecting your state to high rates of murder by guns. I did look it up and yes I was writing partial bigoted statements. Your state is one of the states were fewer murders have happened by guns compared to other states in your country. However, your entire country is one the countries with the most murders by guns in the entire world. Sixty four percent of murders in Texas in 2010 used guns.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state


As far as my friend is concerned, he is not an idiot. My friend lived in San Antonio and has a doctorate.(now who is being judgmental and bigoted?) He is a very intelligent, progressive thinking man and that is why I give his words credence. He did make reference to his observation about guns in your state. Your writing indicates a certain attitude that he referred to many people in your state as having.

Please note that I did not make any personal attack on you personally. You however have. I would agree that I live in a more socialist society, less homophobic. We don't see wearing a kilt as wearing a dress/skirt. (an issue that my friend had with some homophobic people in San Antonio..he is hetero btw). I won't write the words that were used to describe your society(further upset you). If you followed your own advice you would have presented your research.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

` [SIZE=3][FONT=georgia] There is a human dynamics behind every...and I mean EVERY news story out there. It is so omnipresent that many times we fail to remember that. 9/11, for example was all about human courage, suffering and perseverance. But it was also much, much more than that and went beyond the scope of the human condition.

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The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

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Originally Posted by biwilliams

This is rather pathetic, really two young women are dead. The reasoning behind it is as of right now unknown. So why are people here in these forums arguing among themselves? Why not let the detectives do their jobs and find out who is responsible and why it happened. Instead of bickering like children perhaps a bit of respect towards the two young women is more prudent. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation was, it doesn't matter where they are from. All that matters is that what happened was life shattering. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to drag it out in the forums is rather childish especially over a topic such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to the families that were impacted by such a tragedy.

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Thank God. Finally some sanity.

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Originally Posted by Annika L

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

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EXACTLY Annika. THEY ARE MURDERS. Nothing more, nothing less. Until someone PROVES otherwise. Every murder is tragic. But to post here insinuating LGBT bias in the murder is disingenuous and stupid until the facts are in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by æonpax

Unfortunately, this issue, as being discussed here, has the stench of political and ideological hypocrisy brought forth by its objectors. There are those here who hide behind the idea that the victims of this crime should not have been identified by their orientation, which is lesbian, then claim to be concerned about the rights of those in the LGBT. There is a big dichotomy here.

First, it was the police report that mentioned the females were lesbians ( http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/26/...shot-in-texas/ ) and that was obtained from one of the victims parents. It was also verified through classmates and friends. All the reporters did was copy the police information.

Second, this issue is being reported by all the major networks (AP, Reuters, ABC, CNS, NBC, CNN, BBC, et al) as being an assault on "teen lesbians"...except for one network....FOX, which refuses to identify them by their orientation. I'm not surprised considering their obvious ultra conservative bias.

I respect the opinions of those who claim some kind of altruistic objection to the fact these victims were identified as lesbian but despite their unsubstantiated and politically motivated protests, the story...unedited, is gaining its own momentum as a possible crime against a homosexuals.

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WHAT??????

You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have absolutely had it with you!

MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.

Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate.
But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.

I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.

And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?

That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.

You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!

Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that?

Murder is illegal and needs to be punished.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

EXACTLY Annika. THEY ARE MURDERS. Nothing more, nothing less. Until someone PROVES otherwise. Every murder is tragic. But to post here insinuating LGBT bias in the murder is disingenuous and stupid until the facts are in.

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No, see I think you missed my point. If they were murders, nothing more/nothing less, then you'd never have heard of them and we wouldn't be talking about them. The only reason we've heard about this case is that these women were lesbians...and I have no problem with that. I *didn't* hear about the straight Catholic guy murdered in Colorado...and although it's equally tragic, I'm ok with not having heard of that one, 'cause straight Catholics in Colorado are not in my community, and I recognize I can't hear about and grieve *every* victim...I'll let his people grieve him. But to me, the fact that they were any stripe of LGBT was sufficient reason to post the thread.

Personally, I disagree that Aeon insinuated that they were motivated by LGBT bias...she merely entertained the obvious possibility. I would certainly like to hear the followup on the case...is it ever linked to LGBT bias, or is it determined that it was drug-related, or otherwise entirely not hate-motivated. It would have been interesting to see if Aeon would have posted that followup, had all this bashing not occurred. As it is, I couldn't blame her if she was too busy/distracted fighting fires and/or sick of the apparently inevitable backlash to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tenni

Falcon I do wish to apologize for connecting your state to high rates of murder by guns. I did look it up and yes I was writing partial bigoted statements. Your state is one of the states were fewer murders have happened by guns compared to other states in your country. However, your entire country is one the countries with the most murders by guns in the entire world. Sixty four percent of murders in Texas in 2010 used guns.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state

As far as my friend is concerned, he is not an idiot. My friend lived in San Antonio and has a doctorate.(now who is being judgmental and bigoted?) He is a very intelligent, progressive thinking man and that is why I give his words credence. He did make reference to his observation about guns in your state. Your writing indicates a certain attitude that he referred to many people in your state as having.

Please note that I did not make any personal attack on you personally. You however have. I would agree that I live in a more socialist society, less homophobic. We don't see wearing a kilt as wearing a dress/skirt. (an issue that my friend had with some homophobic people in San Antonio..he is hetero btw). I won't write the words that were used to describe your society(further upset you). If you followed your own advice you would have presented your research.

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Tenni,

I apologize to your friend. That was rude of me and uncalled for.

Texas is definitely ... different. I was raised in Massachusetts. So concealed-carry licenses are totally foreign to me. BUT, that is exactly WHY
the criminals think twice. They never know who is packing. I can find a gun in Canada, the Philippines, or any other nation on Earth, if I want. So can the criminals. Arming citizens who have been through a serious course on gun safety is a FANTASTIC way to make criminals think twice.

64%. i am not doubting the stats, but that is surprising to me. I would have thought a lot more were due to drunk driving.

Your friend obviously has his wits about him. But i am referencing things from the standpoint of several Canadians I know who are down here in DFW, Austin, and San Antonio. As well as several friends in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec who have expressed opinions about the state of national health up there and have expressed desires to come to Texas.

As for my attitude, I am ex-military. I STRONGLY believe in the attitude of "PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER!"

I did make personal attacks and i apologize most sincerely. That is not me. I love a good, intelligent, debate. And if yer frien has a prblm with wearin a kilt, he should talk to this amer of scot PROUD descent! lol.
As for my attitude

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elian

The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

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i totally agree elian. After 9/11, things were amazing. It was an "ALL FOR ONE" mentality. People came together in amazing ways. 6 months later, the same bloke who saluted you on the highway in rush hour is giving you the finger.

Personally, i still ball like a baby on every 9/11 anniversary. I came so close to losing family and friends. My ex and i actually watched the second tower be hit from her OB's waiting room.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

....

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WHAT?????? You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have absolutely had it with you!.
Calm down poindexter. You are being childish now

MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.
I'm not a trained psychologist but I do recognize abhorrent behavior when I see it and your reaction here is commonly called "flipping out."

Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate. But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.
What you say and what you actually do, are two distinctly different things.

I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.
Meh!

And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.
Whatever you say buddy, is OK by me

You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!
Meh!

Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that? Murder is illegal and needs to be punished
As I said before, the perpetrator here should be tried and if convicted, punished to the full extent of the law. However, I do not believe in your kind of "mob justice" nor "capitol punishment."

"En este mundo cruel nada es verdad ni es mentira,
todo es segun del color del cristal con que se mira"
-
In this cruel world nothing is truth or lie,
everything depends of what colour is the glass you're looking through

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elian

The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

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To a very large extent, I blame this toxic and intransigent political atmosphere we live in. Case in point, today's announcement by the Supreme Court upholding the Affordable Care Act...or as many call it, "Obamacare." I just left a site where people were ripping each other up over it. All the selfless solidarity brought in the wake of the 9/11 disaster is gone. Unfortunately, this is just another facet of the human condition.

Apparently Rush Limbaugh was quoted on the radio yesterday saying that people are going to lose jobs over the ACA - I would like to know how. They are actually going to need a massive influx of data entry, IT and administrative people in order to implement a lot of the provisions. If anything, this bill might make it easier for small business to hire people. No, I don't think the bill is perfect, but I'm surprised as heck that we ever got the bill past the insurance lobby to start with. I already heard a few of the insurance CEOs saying, "We like some parts of the bill, we'll keep working on it." Great, while *I'm* working for a living, they can send millions of dollars and an army of lobbyists to help congress "clarify" it for the American people. The BEST part is they use my premium money to do it. Limbaugh is the same guy who kept railing, for two hours how the tires on all the cars in America were going to blow out because Obama suggested that you could save 2MPG in gas by adding a few more pounds of tire pressure to each tire - which I have done for years. I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours. These media outlets, and now corporate astroturfers have a vested interest in getting people to listen, sometimes it is as if they really don't even care what they are saying, as long as they get the media sponsorship. It is really hard for me to imagine what "politics" was like pre-9/11, because people are feeling pressured and it has gotten that much more abrasive since then...I think we need to stop the trend of having no room to disagree. We have 24 hour news channels, but really - there isn't always 24 hours worth of news. Why exactly do we NEED 24 hours worth of news?