Got a link, Heph?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
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Got a link, Heph?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
[QUOTE=DuckiesDarling;172657]Got a link, Heph?[QUOTE]
I assume this is what Heph is referring to Darling, darling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...t/10338900.stm
Thanks, Fran and interesting post. Yet it only confirms Israel is like every other country in the world when it comes to religion in schools. We have areas like that here in the US yet they conform to the standards set for home teaching and pass every certification test given so it's allowed as long as the children aren't being abused. We have the Amish community here and they do not use modern techonology and they do home school their children. I can see their point but I can also see the Israeli government's point, if they can't get their children to accept others what hope is there for the Middle East at all?
I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.
Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.
go start a thread about it then tenni..... we would not want to upset canticle by going off topic...... and not talking about the flotilla....
btw, who are the pro israel people....
fran is quiet, hep is neutral like me, and pasa I think is pro israel in the flotilla issue, not sure about other parts.... DD is pro israel on a few things....and canticle.... well.... god knows... I am not sure she knows herself.....
At the risk of going off topic I'll just state that Israeli Arabs retain voting rights. Since the Gaza strip so adamantly maintains it is not a part of Israel why would they have the right to vote in the Israeli elections. Then we have the Knesset. There are many examples on the web of either pro or con Israel heading to an apartheid state. However, I saw an interesting documentary on South Africa the other day. And a grieving grandfather was recalling the murder of his grand-daughter as she was strapped to his daughter's back. She was shot in the head. He stated it wouldn't have happened under apartheid. That back then the police were strong and enforced the rules, he believes they should shoot to kill criminals. Not arrest them and let them right back out to do it again. This was on Current Tv and I believe it was a Vanguard production, they are a cutting edge journalism team.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Sorry DD but I was reading a web page that simply reported on Arabs living within Israel having voting rights for municipal elections but even though they were born and lived in undisputed Israeli territory they were not permitted to vote for a member of the Knesset. Both Israel and your post seem to go back and forth whether Gaza is in Israel or not. It is a bit confusing but how can Israel claim the right to blockade Gaza because it is within their country on one hand and deny voting rights to the Gazans? If the Gazans refuse to exercise those rights as a protest that is their right as in every democratic society. In Canada we have a fairly large political party in our Parliament whose founding purpose is to leave Canada. All of its members are from the one territory of Quebec. They claim it as a nation rather than a province. I'm willing to bet that is still written in their policy but they have modified their policy and actions. The Bloc Quebecois votes in Parliament. it brings the special interests of Quebecers up in the national Parlaiment. It behave civily (now). Sometimes its leader makes more sense than the pro one Canada parties on some issues!!!! It has toned down its separatist rhetoric and is working within the democratic process to get as many 'rights" for Quebecers as it can. Hamas and Fatah if Arabs had voting rights might one day act in a similar manner regardless of what is in their present and "former" terrorist policy manifestos.
Whatever you saw about South Africa today and the violence really is a red herring with regards to Israel's Apartheid issues in Gaza, Palestine and Israel proper. There is always someone stating that X would not happen in the old days even if the old days had Apartheid etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
First Gaza is not Israeli territory, it is disputed lands that Israel has not claimed, Gazans are not citizens of Israel why would they have the right to vote? Gazans don't want to be citizens of Israel, they want to be citizens of Palestine. Can't have it both ways, are they Israelis or aren't they? If so why are they firing rockets on their own countrymen?Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
DD
In some respects we agree about the greyness of Gaza and Palestine. Note, that I kept editing from what you read ....gotta give me five or ten minutes ...lol
If it is disputed territory and Israel does not recognize it as its territory for voting then we are dealing with Apartheid. Israel has segregated the Gazans and Palestinian for far too many years without accepting Gaza and Palestine as a sovereign country (ies?) that it has disputes with over borders etc. It has no right to blockade the sovereign waters of Gaza then let alone the international waters near Gaza? Israel is behaving inappropriately and a bully with your country's military and financial support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
Gaza is blockaded to slow the flow of rockets into that territory that are used against Israel. Gaza is blockaded to facilitate the release of Galid Shalit. Gaza is blockaded because it's that or total war. Which would you prefer?Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
It's quite simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
As soon as the Palestinians renounce terror and lay down their rockets, they will get their freedoms back. As long as Israel has to suffer attacks, it won't happen. Palestine is in charge of it's own destiny.
Pasa
I don't think so. I think it's the same as any fundamentalist group. The US has plenty of them. They want to be able to be exclusive and often set up their own little communities. They don't reflect on the state of things within the nation or within the broader scope of the main religion they supposedly are a part of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
Pasa
That goes both ways.. because there will never be any peace as long as Israel terrorises with tanks bombs missiles and phosphorus shells.. its a 2 way street peace making... Palestine is no more in charge of its destiny than we are of living forever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Three different investigations have been conducted by the IAEA to see if Israel has used phosphorous. In all three cases they have said no. This is a myth that is often used by the anti-Israeli set to convince others of Israel's 'evil.' Just to correct one tiny point in your post.
And, Fran, of the two sides, only one has the destruction of the other as it's stated goal. You keep ignoring that. THAT is what will keep this conflict going. Hamas (and Fata before it) has, IN ITS CHARTER the destruction of Israel. No peace can be had as long as Israel exists.
No...Palestine is in charge of this. They can change their goal, and accept a two state solution. Or they can continue as is. Israel does not cause Palestine to have AS ITS STATED, WRITTEN GOAL, the destruction of Palestine.
That difference is all the difference in the world.
Pasa
I may be wrong but I do believe that I have seen reports that state that the more Orthodox Jews are the ones who are rather militant about building new settlements in the disputed territory. They may very well be the ones wanting more Orthodox schools as well. It makes sense to me Heph.
As far as Israel blockading to prevent rockets from being brought in and shoot towards Israel, that also make sense. However, is it just? I'm not so convinced when it causes such hardships for Gazans. I'm not convinced that Israel has the right to determine what goods enter Gaza without UN sanctions. In that area they are guilty. Now, for some reason, many US citizens reject the UN as a valid form of world decisions. It is true that it is mired and flawed but it still exists for such things. Unless you accept that, then who gets to decide? The bullies of the world? Those who have the biggest guns? No, that is global anarchy and not the direction of the world should move if we are just creatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...hepalestiniansQuote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...sphorus-shells
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...sphorus-israel
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5470047.ece
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israeli_...the_Gaza_Strip
I have replied to the allegation that Hamas wants the detruction of Israel if you care to look back Pasa.. I have never ignored it.. I have on more than one occasion said that Israel exists and has the right to exist.. and when peace comes in the middle east it will exist.. Irsael has made it clear however that it wants nothing less than the absolute destruction of Hamas.. Hamas does not wish the destruction of Irsael but its conversion to a Muslim state.. something I would no more wish to see than do you.. but for very different reasons I think.. I no more wish to see an Islamic state than I am happy with the Zionist one which exists now.. nor do I wish for a Palestinian state to be an Islamic state.. yet in both cases that is surely for their citizens to decide.. not we from outside..
Historically nations have been destroyed.. sometimes justifiably.. Nazi germany was destroyed but ultimately a new Germany arose from its ashes.. my hope and wish is that Israel, and the various middle eastern countries can avoid the fate of Germany and the appalling destruction of Europe by changing and trying to get some understanding.. whichever side we are on.. there can be no peace unless all sides sit round a table and discuss their differences and settle them.. if they fail to do so, the prospects for the region and just about everyone else on this planet are bleak.. we can and we have harped back to the historical reasons for this conflict..and they are important.. but what is most importanbt is allowing Palestinians to build their state and get on with making that state a success.. Israel is a state now.. and if it wished it could do so much to pave the way to allow Paestinians to create their state.. free of Hamas and their like.. but its hatred of Hamas is no better than that of Hamas toward it..Israel will not rest until it destroys Hamas completely.. and I ask you this... how easy it ito destroy completely a terrorist or freedom movement call it what u will? Eight years on and the most powerful nations on earth are still struggling with it in Afghanistan. And in between are blasted Palestinian and Israeli alike.. mostly the former by a long way.. because Israel has the muscle which Hamas and its cronies lack.. and because the world does not care enough..
''I will not argue the figures or the findings.... all I will say, if you can not give more aid than there is to give...... and the logistics of transporting and delivering, are another aspect....''
You can't really argue with something if it is placed right in front of you and spectacles are not required to see the detail.
''its a bit like other countries, yes, children are starving.... but again, you can not provide more aid then what you have, and getting it to where its needed, is easier to talk about than do..... specially if you are facing hostile resistance and I am not talking about blockades, ....''
If the super powers of the world have enough money to go to war, then they have enough money, to give humanitarian aid to people, over and over again.
''the issue is how to resolve it.. while being balanced and fair to both sides, and without creating more bloodshed......and without causing issues that result in less aid getting thru''
Well, it won't be by the arrogance of some nations, thinking that they are always in the right and by super powers, going to war, but really, not for the freedom of others in the world, just those in their own back yard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
You make a good point, there, hardnbubbly, but I don't think that this would be productive, nor do I believe that many of us, citizens, or those elected to represent us, would agree with such a thing. I know I wouldn't.
Interesting that you should answer tenni's post 622 with links to...Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
A CNN page and an image and opinion.....not necessarily sanctioned by CNN....of lots of cargo...of whatever kind....piled up. how can you know that this was humantarian aid, or bound for Gaza?
The second link appears to be from what looks like an ultra-conservative American site. That is bound to be unbiased.....it really is.
Quite!!Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
[QUOTE=hardnbubbly;172601]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-aid-israel
''They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.''
Thank you for that link hardnbubbly. How can Hamas be blamed, for refusing the aid from the flotilla. It has been tainted by what happened in international waters. It would be like accepting money, taken from the pockets of the dead.
Also, why should Hamas trust any deliveries, of aid, from Israel. How do they know that those supply trucks are not some kind of Trojan Horse. The Israeli's are very good at kidnapping people and carting them off to Israel (as they did with Mordechai Vanunu, when he was taken, in Italy), so a truck could easily be loaded with commandos, hiding behind the aid. Such things happen in times of conflict. The Greeks were not the first to think of things like that. Even if that is a myth....it is symbolic, of what can happen.
''Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?''
Yes, I'd noticed that, too.
''FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.''
Yep, I remember that........but you do realise.....don't you....that none of this will be relavent! :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
If the UN along with other aid agencies and the Red Cross and Red Crescent, are also invilved, that is how things should be done.
What we need is the UN Security Council, deciding that ships flying the UN flag will break the blockade, but, of course, we all know that the USA would use it's veto and not allow that.
I do hope that these tunnels have been getting as much humanitarian aid through to the people of Gaza, as they possibly can. Note...I said humanitarian......not weapons, or weapon making equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Oh, biased they most certainly be! How do you know that these reports are real and not just more Israeli propaganda?Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
How do you, personally decide, what is real, what is truth, what is biased, what is unbiased??????
And why should Hamas and the people of Gaza trust the Israelis to deliver safe, untainted aid to them. Why should they not be wary of the hand that feeds and then bombs the hell out of them??????
You'll come back with ''if Hamas didn't do this and accepted peace and didn't attack Israel ,'' etc. It goes round and around in circles. two semitic peoples (one far more semitic than the other), fighting a battle of words, religion, long held mistrust and ongoing conflicts.
Why should the Palestinians cow tow to the Israelis???? Why should Israel expect everyone else to have peace on Israel's terms......or nothing at all??????
I would agree that what was there to be read, was not acceptable, but it could hardly be called the Hamas charter, as it appeared to be snippets of whatever that charter is, in it's entirety and also quotes from speeches made by what could be called ''fundamentalists,'' or ''extremists.''Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
Interesting to see that MidEastWeb is a grouping of people from what would appear to be the three monotheistic religions, of the area. And it appears to be a non profit organisation, registered in Israel.
Interesting and informative, nevertheless.
Wow DD, this comes over a little like.....''believe the news I read.....because anything else cannot be the truth''Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
You may be right....totally right......but you have got some of us thinking that you only believe pro Israeli news sources.
I totally agree hardnbubbly. The whole situation has become a disaster for all involved.....iimmigrant Jews and the indigenous Palestinian population, of Christian and Muslim people. No one wants to seem to acknowledge that there are Christian Arabs, as well as Muslim. They are found in Egypt, Syria (a mixture of semitic and non-semitic people), Iraq. Religion has become politics....in much the same way as it did in Northern Ireland.....only it has had much longer to become a festering wound.Quote:
Originally Posted by hardnbubbly
People who have lived, for generations in a homeland, should come first. if Israel had not had mass immigration of Jews from across the world, it would not have survived as a state, with only a few thousand people inhabiting it.
There are ultra orthodox Jews, who think that Palestinians and other Arabs and also Christians, are beneath them. I have watched such people make these remarks. I once entered a chat room, upon another site, thinking that it would be interesting. I got booted, for being a Christian whore.
The room was run by an ultra orthodox Jew.....who was as fundamentalist as any Islamic or Christian fundamentalist. His view was that Muslims and Christians should be got rid of....for we were evil. So those people do exist....but hopefully, they are in a minority.
The UN should have been more involved from the beginning. That is obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
641
‘’Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".’’
Round and around. You won’t call them less than human and neither would I, but will you, in your own words, condemn the thoughts, words and actions of fundamentalist Jews, who, though they are probably a minority, are no less dangerous and offensive as Islamic or Christian fundamentalists.
The many Jews who emigrated to Israel, were not all escaping from oppressive regimes. Those from the Americas and Western Europe already had nationhood and a country to call their own. Those people, who are possibly in the majority, went to Israel, for idealistic reasons.
642
‘’DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).
AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.
I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.
Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.’’
The situation truly does, get worse and worse.
644
‘’And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.’’
It strikes me, that you didn’t really have an answer for hardnbubbly.
645
‘’Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).
This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?’’
Hardnbubbly.....like a liar twists anothers words, to make themself the victim, so will a powerful state, whether it be big or small.
656
‘’RE 652
What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?’’
I can assure you, that if you stooped to my level, you would need to climb a ladder, but once at the top of the ladder and upon a level surface, you would find yourself in the company of an intelligent, caring, cultured and honest person, who has deeply held beliefs and moral convictions. I also respect the views of others, even if I don’t agree with them and I don’t go in for abbreviations....not all that often.....so I am not into cyber-speak. Nor will I use foul language, when foul language is not required. Sorry, but not sorry to say, DD....that with this post.....you truly let yourself down. I am saddened and sorrowful.....but that’s life.
Love and light.