Gaza Aid Convoy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-aid-israel


They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.

Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?

FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Hamas' own policies state that they believe Allah will not come until the Zionist plague is removed. And as for the policies, it's well known as it's been reported on several sites and mentioned several times in this thread. Hamas has declared it will accept no aid vetted by Israel

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-456346

http://www.resistnet.com/profiles/bl...ng-aid-to-gaza

There are a couple, plenty more out there on the web.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Smuggling necessities through tunnels is aid??????????

Please tell the children with stunted development.. the patients that don't have medicin to be treated... school children that don't have school books.

Just tell me what weapon can you manufacture with chocolate? What weapons you can manufacture with medicin?

---

can you please supply info about what is being smuggled thru the tunnels.....
I am going by reports by egypt and israel...... so there is no breakdown of exactly what is being smuggled thru the tunnels....

what I know, is aid / weapons and commercial goods are been smuggled in.... thru over 300 tunnels..... unfortunately the red cross is not able to provide exact numbers as they are not in control of the tunnels and nor are the aid foundations....

israel is being fired on with chocolate flavoured and chocolate powered missles ???? ok..... are they foil wrapped or just plain chocolate

you really have to ask yourself, where the missiles are getting into the gaza strip, if they are not coming in by plane, ship or border control....and there is tunnels under the ground that israel actively states, are not monitored

now I am realistic... you are not gonna be able to smuggle in 600 ton a day thru tunnels.... and nor am I suggesting that its going on on that scale.....
so aid is a loose term, but a backpack of meds or a field medics pack is actually a lot of meds for basic treatment and first aid ....... and thats just one person.....

you have 7 people, two carrying med packs, 2 carrying rgps and 3 carrying food..... thats a lot of stuff for a militant cell...... ( in english, a unit of about 7-10 people )

tho I really have to ask, the tonnes of aid going into gaza, is it getting to the kids or is it being stockpiled by the *ruling * groups..... as happens in a lot of aid distribution areas in other countries

Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

It is not on the CNN.. It is a user posted item. It says not vetted by CNN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenni

Thanks DD
re: post 624
This has not been reported in Canada CBC, Globe and Mail nor the National Post (a conservative National newspaper). All are reputable news sources. When I read the first post, I can see that it would probably be rejected as a biased emotional rant rather than accurate news reporting in Canada. Strange that it is under the CNN banner. It is not under a New York Times search nor the BBC webpage search. I notice the reference to Fox news in the second webpage and the use of emotional rather than neutral wording.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-aid-israel


They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.

Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?

FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.

---

I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

Here is the latest on the aid getting in:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

---

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas charter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Here is the latest:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

---

As politely as I can say it, BULLSHIT. The protesters were processed and on their way to being released within 17 hours, the aid sat for a week. Pick another party line.

Thanks hardnbubbly
I notice that the Guardian reports that this was last week and it points out that Israel should deliver the cement that was brought. By refusing to permit cement into Gaza, Israel is defying the UN definition of what is humanitarian aid. A tough position for Hammas to take. I believe that the activists have all been released now? I wonder if Hammas is still refusing the aid. I would blame them for not accepting the medicine etc. just because Israel is holding back the cement. Hammas is right that it should be delivered but this is an example of plain stubborn bull headedness on both sides. Logic is out the window and a nasty pissing contest is going on over there.

Thanks for the recent info DD

However, do you not see the pissing contest coming from Israel?
""Israel has no communication with Hamas, we speak to Fatah officials at the borders," said the Israeli security official."

wtf????

Hammas is the government of Gaza and Fatah and Hammas are kinda enemies too? Silly Israel...just plain fuck'n dumb of them.

Not sure if it's dumb or if they are chosen to report to Hamas. I was a bit stumped as well since Hamas killed off Fatah members during it's election victory.

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Here is the latest:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

---

from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

And Israel is promising what exactly? A bouquet of roses?

The IRA changed their stance eventually, but someone had to be willing to have them at the negotiation table. Likewise for Hamas. They are no more ideological than say the Israeli foreign minister.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

I used the first two out of 20 that popped up. And Hamas has stated on many occasions there will be no peace until the Zionists are removed and they will not allow any "infidels" meaning other countries trying to broker a settlement.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

---

Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".

DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".

---

Lol... you completely misunderstood what I was saying..

I generally disagree with Hamas and their policies. And if you read my previous post, I did say that I think they should have let it in.

But again, I guess their manouver worked. Some hospitals and schools will get rebuilt.

As for they UN, Israel also decides what they can bring into Gaza and what they cannot. The blockade encompasses them as well. And yes, chocolate is one of the banned items. So are a lot of medicins, school supplies and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.

---

And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.

Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).

This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Lol... you completely misunderstood what I was saying..

I generally disagree with Hamas and their policies. And if you read my previous post, I did say that I think they should have let it in.

But again, I guess their manouver worked. Some hospitals and schools will get rebuilt.

As for they UN, Israel also decides what they can bring into Gaza and what they cannot. The blockade encompasses them as well. And yes, chocolate is one of the banned items. So are a lot of medicins, school supplies and so on.

---

I did not misunderstand at all ( the way I write, is what confuses the hell out of people but its done for a reason )......

I read your link...... as for why israel has banned a lot of items, I can only guess at...... however some items I understand why... cement being one.....
plastercrete is a superior item to cement for a number of reasond....

I have the stance that I hate politics.... but I am acutely aware, that you have 3 levels of people in any society

the people, the civilians, the * innocents * the armed forces etc

the politicians with all their posing and posturing and strutting.....

then you have the militant extremists.... they are the issue with the attacks, rockets, the killings, the ones that believe that their opinion and stance is the law, the religion, the rights.... regardless of what their own government may say......
they are the people that is the problem.... you could gain peace in gaza, and they will not stop fighting, they will even turn on their own kind if need be.....


I hate bureaucratic bs, such as the aid supplies and shipments and who can do what.... and as your link showed, its coming from a government level..... but its not the government that is doing the rocket attacks on the convoys... its the militants, they are the ones with the training with the armaments.....
I am the type of person that believes that aid and aid only shipments should be allowed freedom of movement within reason, but yes, I allow for ships to be sent to a designated port for inspection ( ashdod port ).... but I say that from the point of view that its not just the aid that can be the issue.....
as I have said earlier in the thread.... 700 people on one boat..... how many would have left the gaza strip after the unloading. 600?? 500??

with each death in the gaza strip, hamas and the other groups lose more fighters.... and well, aid is not the only thing that becomes urgently needed.....

it falls back again, on my knowledge of military and combat training..... something that civilians may not have...... you can not keep fighting a war, if you have nobody left to fight on your side.... and as I said in another post.... I am not fully convinced that israel boarded the ships just cos they never stopped... I have the strangest feeling, they boarded the ships cos the ships were carrying people seeking to ally with the fighters in gaza ....

I am willing to wager a $10,000 bet, that israel will never fall, regardless of who goes against them...... we will see peace first..... but it will not come at the hands of the UN ..... it will come from the middle east

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

It's as relevant as what LDD posted and you asked what it had to do with Israel(post451)... so can't handle being told the same thing.

But I stand by my point, this is about Israel/Gaza not about Africa, or Thailand or Japan or Australia. Children are dying everywhere but you yourself seem determined to only keep this on the subject of Israel and Gaza but you throw other dead kids up in other parts of the world when shown the bodies and faces of kids directly affected by Gazan rocket fire. Can't debate a point so you misdirect, classic.

---

I won't swear. I shall not lower myself to that level......but don't tell me what I can and cannot handle being told me. You have no idea what I can and cannot handle.

I can see that you will never be swayed, from the position you have taken. I'll say again....children are dying in conflicts, in much the same manner and worse, all over the world. You seem to think that only Jews are suffering. Do you speak out as strongly against other wrongs in the world, which are killing children, as well as adults.

It's impossible to debate with people. who are so definite in their devotion to one side in such a conflict as is happening in the Middle East. You will not be moved to take a step outside, what you are so adamant about, and consider that Israel may be in the wrong. Do you think that Israel can do any wrong???

Not mis-direction.......just letting you know that Israel is not the only place in the world, to have children suffering. The suffering of those in Gaza, I have no doubt, is much worse, than the children of Israel. You are the one showing a closed mind......not me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canticle

It's impossible to debate with people. who are so definite in their devotion to one side in such a conflict as is happening in the Middle East. You will not be moved to take a step outside, what you are so adamant about

---

I completely agree. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

Pasa

ROFLMAO Pasa very nice and so true.

Canticle you are so anti Israel I am surprised Hamas hasn't offered you a membership.

I know all about the suffering in this world and I can guarantee you every second of every day there is someone having a much worse day than anything you or I can imagine. So you lay off me about Israel and I'll lay off you about antiIsrael.

Til then, bring it on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

---

Good question. Good question indeed. We could ask the British the same question. They did the EXACT same thing.

Quote:

---

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

---

Those borders were lost as a result of a war Israel didn't start. They have no right to demand a return to those borders.

But, this is not a struggle for human rights. This is a struggle of one nation who has a 'government' opposing it that has, AS IT'S STATED PURPOSE FOR BEING the eradication and elimination of the Jews. This is Israel fighting for its very survival.

IF, and I mean this, IF Palestine were to reject the idea that Israel should be destroyed, then I would agree with you 100%. That's a huge IF.

Quote:

---

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

---

As long as Palestine has, as it's stated purpose for existing, the eradication of Israel from existing, then yes, it's valid. How could it not be? That doesn't make palestinians less than human. It makes them extremely human. When humans make choices, they suffer consequences for those choices.

Now, there is the REALLY important point: Israel rejects this idea. Israel could rid itself of it's problems easily. It would take less than a week. And yet, rather than rid itself of it's enemy, they have suffered decades of missile attacks. THAT is the difference between Israel and Gaza. Israel actually could do the Palestinians what Hamas has vowed to do to Israel. And yet, it chooses not to.

Pasa

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

I completely agree. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.

Pasa

---

Decidely amateurish and been done to death. You just want everyone to agree with you and your country's foreign policy. I don't care who agrees or disagrees with me. It just saddens me, to see people, posting with such loathing in their hearts for certain things. I am neither pro or anti Israeli...or pro or anti Palestinian. I detest terror tactics, whereever they come from, the rebel...aka the terrorist...or the state. The USA may be a big super power....but is doesn't make their support of Israel right. And you don't have to go along with your governments foreign policy, just because you're a citizen............or would that make you anti American.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

ROFLMAO Pasa very nice and so true.

Canticle you are so anti Israel I am surprised Hamas hasn't offered you a membership.

I know all about the suffering in this world and I can guarantee you every second of every day there is someone having a much worse day than anything you or I can imagine. So you lay off me about Israel and I'll lay off you about antiIsrael.

Til then, bring it on.

---

Well, DD, you have gone down in my estimations. Not that this will bother you.

Not so clever of Pasa and not at all true.......but you have got to agree, haven't you.

Very immature...laughing like that...and the insults fly...once again.

I'm not anti Israel...I'm not pro Hamas. So get that right.

I will continue to bring up the suffering of others, as it is important that this should be realised. It would be very difficult not to get on your case about Israel, even though I'm not, because the subject is about Israel and Gaza and the aid ship and your obvious anger, and seemingly unwillingness to even have any criticism of Israel, is very disturbing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Rigid? No, but I do blame Hamas for most of it and Israel must defend. For the rocket attacks and the stubborn policies that deny any aid vetted by Israel, that includes food. So yes I do blame one side, in particular Hamas. They will continue this until there is nothing left on the Gaza Strip because their religion demands that Israel be swept from this planet before Allah will come.

---

Yes, true...you appear unwilling to see things in another light.

A question........if you blame Hamas for 'most,' of the conflict, then you must obviously blame israel, for a certain percentage of the troubles out there. Tell us what you think Israel may be guilty of and what she, as a nation, can do, to change things, so that the sate of Israel comes out white in the wash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canticle

Well, DD, you have gone down in my estimations. Not that this will bother you.

Not so clever of Pasa and not at all true.......but you have got to agree, haven't you.

Very immature...laughing like that...and the insults fly...once again.

I'm not anti Israel...I'm not pro Hamas. So get that right.

I will continue to bring up the suffering of others, as it is important that this should be realised. It would be very difficult not to get on your case about Israel, even though I'm not, because the subject is about Israel and Gaza and the aid ship and your obvious anger, and seemingly unwillingness to even have any criticism of Israel, is very disturbing.

---

out of curiosity, why is the double standards allowed by you but not others.... you questioned me about things I posted that were not to do with the thread subject matter, while you now do the same.....

and in regards to your remarks to pasa about the anti american stance....

anybody that knows anything, will know and understand that american has a strategic military interest in the middle east, the last thing they want to do, is piss off the middle east and lose that strategical advantage.....

that doesn't make any body, with a opinion that can appear to support their country, supporting their countries stance...... there is a wide divide between a matching stance and support of your countries stance.....

I myself, as a ex military person, support the nz troops in arghanistan, from the point of view that they are over there trying to get the troops home alive, from all countries.... yet, I am anti my countries stance of send troops to fight americans wars.... as the cost to nz is something that the taz payer has to shoulder.... and its the nz population that have to bury the dead from a conflict that we never started......

at the end of the day, canticle, you are sinking faster and faster into a quadmire of your own making... you are out of your depth on a number of issues..... but you are insisting on telling people with actual knowledge and experience in a number of areas, that they are uninformed, yet, you lack understanding of the areas that they address.....

there is no news paper, website, tv program that will teach you what the trained military professionals know and understand about the boarding of the ship..... and while you can cry propaganda at every video that shows something that can contradict your stance on things..... it doesn't change the fact that a lot of the videos are disproving what the protestors are saying and supporting what israel is saying.....

there are even independant sources such as aid groups that have shared info that prove that israel is telling the truth in a number of areas.....

but as many of us have noticed, you cry propaganda at anything you can not decry, you avoid many questions, you are very quick to puff out your chest about your own intelligence but you fail to understand that there are those of us that are not pro / anti hamas or pro / anti israel...... we are merely reviewing the facts and findings using our knowledge and skills and understanding that is far superior to yours....... and posting our findings..... and watching you try and decry what we say......and get it wrong a lot

one example of that, is you trying to drive me into the jihad / martyr debate, that was between tenni and DD... yet, when I posted that I was not involved, you posted again and told me that I did not understand the meanings of the words...

so canticle ......you have stated that you will leave the thread ( a number of pages ago ) and yet you still are in the thread...... you have hardly provided any proof to back up your arguments, yet decried others providing links to sites and videos......

now I ask of you again, since we are all uninformed fools..... where is your proof we are all wrong..... where is your links to non propaganda videos and news sites.... where is your break down of events, backed up by field knowledge and understanding......

I wait as I have done so for many pages..... for you to rebut this post, without a wall of text, and actual links to non propaganda videos and websites...... unless... you do not have anything to link to...

Recent Newsbroadcasts tell of 'extreme orthodox Jews' wanting to set up their own environment within Israel. The latest aspect is separate schools for their children.

Wars tend to bind a nation together initially. Is this the same element in the Israeli nation that has been causing trouble by aggressive land grabbing and settlement expansion?

Is Israel begining to break up under the strain?

.

RE 652



What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?