Gaza Aid Convoy

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Originally Posted by Canticle

It's been called the Holy Land.....yes...and how wrong that term is......or so I believe. The Crusades were just another bloodbath of battles to gain land in the name of the Pope, not considering the people who already lived in those lands, or those who ruled them. How many people must have been unnecessarily and cruelly slaughtered, in the name of a God and how many people must have been dispossessed.

Times may change...people don't.

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The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Yes. When the Israelis came to the table and offered land for peace, they could have ended it. When Yassir Arrafat garaunteed peace with Israel, shook hands and accepted a Nobel Peace Prize, it could have been done with. Forever.

But the Palestinians felt that sending a suicide bomber to a discotheque was a better plan. They felt that sending in rockets and RPGs over the border into Tel Aviv was a better plan.

That there are any Palestinians left alive is pure grace of Israel. If Mexico started sending in suicide bombers and lobbing rockets into our cities we'd have wiped them out. Like, the first time it happened. Mexico would cease to exist as an autonomous state, and we would own it lock, stock, and barrel. If anyone thinks Israel doesn't have the military capability of driving every last Palestinian out of Israelli territory, you are mistaken. They could, and it would take about 24 hours. But they choose not to.

If the Palestinians today said "We recognize your right to exist, and we wish to live in peace" it would be over. It would be over before the second news cycle. But, they won't. Because the only world they will accept is one where Israel ceases to exist.

There is no moral equivalence. No, Israel isn't perfect. No nation is. But we expect them to turn more cheeks than God ever asked. They just want to exist, peacefully. The leaders of Palestine just want to kill the Jews and "retake" their holy land.

Pasa

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The middle part of this is a rather unpleasant.. no.. odious, macho and arrogant statement to make Pasa. It is almost as if you wish it to be. It certainly displays a belief in American superiority which is almost wide eyed and maniacal.. and, without recourse to nuclear weapons would only suck your country into another long drawn out guerilla war in Mexico which would cost hundreds of thousands of lives... luckily for America and the world you don't run the USA. Yes, Israel certainly could clear the Gaza strip.. that it doesnt do so is more to do with realism and world opinion than choice.. then the comparsion to the Warsaw ghetto becomes even more glaringly apparent.

..finally to say all it needs is for Palestinians leaders to say they want peace and recognise Israel so it will be is just not so... it takes two to tango.. you simply are never prepared to even consider you may have it wrong and that there is fault on both sides.. and there is much fault on both sides.. you close your eyes to the fact that Israel has proven itself a bully and will shoot, and kill whomsoever it pleases, wherever it pleases, use any weapon and any tactic to get its own way. It is a mess and mess which your country can do much to help sort out.. that it chooses not to in its position as Israel's financier and weapon supplier is a condemnation of it. All countries have a responsibilty to sort this out..the UN set up Israel as a salve for its conscience in 1948. It exists and must be allowed to continue to exist.. but it has to be reigned in from this insane bully boy policy which is a bar to peace every bit as much as any intransigence from Palestinian Authorities or even terrorists. More so.. Israel has the power... and it shows no magnanimity or compassion..

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Originally Posted by JP1986UM

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

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Noow here is a tolerant and compassionate if somehwat man. If we have the right to wipe Islam of the face of the earth.. then does not Islam have the right to defend itself or to try and do the same to Christianity and western culture?

Read about the crusades darling.. I think you will find that they were about far more odious and selfish things than the defence of Europe and its culture...

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

And there was I thinking that it was only the bad countries that rewrote history to suit.

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Indeed heph..and it can be argued were it not for Britain surviving.. then the eastern USA would be flying the swastika and the western USA the flag of the rising sun.. but of course thats just silly isn't it? And not pertinent..

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Originally Posted by Paulofwiltshire

What is there to say about it? the facts speak for themselves, Gaza is an appalling situation.

To begin with, the interception of the aid flotilla in international waters by armed men is technically (under maritime law) piracy. That the act was carried out by a sovereign state is wholly reprehensible and, in my opinion, indicative of the lack of respect that sovereign state has for the lives of people outside its sovereignty.

Gaza itself has become somewhat reminiscent in recent times of the Warsaw ghetto during the second world war. The irony of that should not be lost on the world when considering that Israel was created as a sovereign state to give the Jewish peoples a homeland following the atrocities perpetrated against them by nazi germany during the second world war, including appalling acts within the Warsaw ghetto itself.

To summarise, one can only hope that the average Israeli citizen is mindful of the past of his/her country and is as appalled as the rest of the world at this ongoing situation.

Having said all the above we must remember that this is a forum for bisexuality and bisexual issues, not a political forum, which is a more appropriate place for people to vent their ire on this matter.

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I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

Granted it's done by an Israeli person but still pretty informative.

http://www.levitt.com/misc/israel_history.html

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

..whether or not we call it the Holy Land, Land of Milk and Honey or anything else.. the Crusades are what got us into this mess in the first place...

..and to say there will never be peace in the Holy Land is simply not so and it saddens me that many think that way.. my country fought a war against our southern neighbour for over 300 years and intermittently for over 300 years before that and now not only are we friends we are partners in the same state. They know what the fighing is about ok Twyla.. just as we do. There will be peace some day but it requires the will and commitment of all parties and all peoples..

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You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

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Originally Posted by Canticle

You are far more positive, about there ever being peace in the Middle east, Fran. I think there is a slight difference between the situation there and what took place in the United Kingdom.........the three monotheistic religions......but who knows...maybe one day.......

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The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

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Originally Posted by Canticle

I was with you, up until your last paragraph! Are you trying to say that the only things that bisexuals and others on a bisexual site, should talk about, is bisexuality?

This is the real world and it is inhabited by bisexuals and straight and gay people. Don't you think that bisexuals want to discuss world subjects, including political and humanitarian ones, with other bisexuals?

If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one.

If only bisexual matters can be discussed should other subjects also be ignored.....art, religion, philisophy, science etc, etc, etc???? If so, it's going to be a pretty boring place. If one doesn't want to read a thread, one does not have to. Simple answer.

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And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

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Originally Posted by JP1986UM

The Crusades were a response to Islamic incursion into European lands long before the Pope sent out Crusaders to volley with them. Islam has ALWAYS been the problem. until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.

But if you wanna discuss the crusades, lets start another thread.

In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.

BTW, wasn't Canada artificially created? Seems so according to the definitions being thrown out there.

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The colonisation of Canada (and other places), because humans explored the world and found new lands to sail to and settle, cannot be compared with the artificial creation of the State of Israel.

We all know why this creation of the state, took place, but in this creation, the people who caused it to happen, made a very big mistake. The settlement of immigrant Jews, from many parts of the world, to this tiny state has been a very calculated one.

Other than slaves and people being sent to penal colonies, the colonisation of places such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Americas, took place over more than 60 years. A very different scenario.

And why should the Islamic forces not have moved westward and conquered land, in the same way that Christian (Western), Roman, Greek, Egyptian civilisations, conquered Europe, parts of Africa etc, etc. It is, unfortunately, what humans do.

Islam also brought great culture and learning with it, great architecture. Yes, they were pushed back and out of most of Europe, but we still have European Muslims in Turkey and eastern European countries. If you will remember, some of these European Muslims, suffered very recently, at the hands of Christians and Europe once again saw genocide happening.

''until It is wiped off the planet, we'll have to deal with those Sand Tards who insist that blowing up innocent civilians is a valid military strategy.''

This is an odious thing to say. I'm not sure if it smacks of religious intolerance, racism, or both. You wipe a religion, and/or it's followers from the face of the earth and that obliteration has a name. One that leaves a dark and acrid taste in the mouth, when said.

''In the meantime, Israel was justified in boarding that ship. They were warned and got many other warnings at sea. Weapons were also found onboard that ship. Next time, Israel won't be so courteous with the blockade busters. I don't blame them one bit.''

Israel does not own the high seas. Her secret service organisation, Mossad has been active iin too many places over the years. Israel thinks it has a God given right to do what it likes. It does not.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

The reasons why wars are fought are unimportant for my purpose in this post.. in part mine fought for its life against an overbearing neighbour.. from the creation of England and Scotland within a decade or so of each other in the 9th century, there was always friction which was a carry over from the frictions which existed between their predecessor kindoms, cos for much of that time there were huge religious and cultural differences between our two countries and to those ancient peoples those differences were as stark as the differences between Israel and the Palestinians.. it was not until the 12th century that they shared a common religion and they never shared a common language. The gulf was huge. Every bit as huge in medieval terms as the gulf between the combatants in the middle east.

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Oh, I have no argument with you here, Fran. Indeed, England was at war with herself many times before the Wars of the Roses and the Royalist/Parliament civil war. That is why medieval history is so fascinating.

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

And what the hell do sexual orientations have to do with political opinions? Really, there is a time and a place to question about someone's sexuality, it's not during a debate about human rights or about the situation in the Middle East. I may be straight, but I'm involved with a bisexual man. I may be opinionated but they are opinions that are formed while looking at all sides of the issues. I don't close my eyes to the faults in anyone's country let alone my own.

And yes, if one doesn't want to read a thread, they don't have to. But they also don't have to read anyone's posts if they don't want to, thanks to the handy little ignore.

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Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

By the way, the sexual orientation of people is very important and becomes both a political and humanitarian issue, when, in some countries gay and bi people are persecuted and may even be killed. People who have done no wrong. People who just vanish from the face of the earth. It's all political. All humanirarian.

Put a dog into a corner, deny it life's essentials and then whip it. 10 to 1 it will bite as a last resort. QED dogs bite and so are a problem to be dealt with harshly.

Territory is not the only feature in the area. It is the treatment of the peoples. On one side the technologically progressed Israelis who can hit with impunity, starve others, lower the water table, and take land by stealth, shoot people on TV (the sight of a man unsuccessfully trying to protect himself and his son is as good as the skinless Vitnamese girl after a napalm attack) . On the other side is the aimless retribution meted out by the desparate arabs.

An interesting parallel looms into view.

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.

Incidentally the USA is busy undermining itself with indiscriminate drone attacks.

There can be no escape from the reality - what the Iraelis did was idiotic and dangerous. The Turks are now labelling the boarding as equivalent to piracy.

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Well they say a picture is worth a 1000 words. So here is a Qassam rocket fired from civilian Gaza into civilian Israel....wonder which child was hit by this?

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..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

..an just how many children in Gaza were killed and maimed by the use phosphorus shells Twyla? Far, far more... its not all one way.. and one side has most of the cards to play militarily..

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Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

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Originally Posted by Canticle

Twyla.....I am not the one who said that this forum was not a place for political discussion. That was Paul. My answer to Paul, was that if we can't discuss all subjects upon the planet, on a forum like this, where are we supposed to discuss them. Bisexuals surely don't want to just discuss bisexual issues. I think that Paul is thinking that this is only what should happen upon this site.

I think you have misunderstood my post. Paul needs to remember that we all, whatever our sexuality, have to live in the real world and the Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc societies of this world contain stright, gay and bi people. Any discussion that involves what is going on in the world, is relavent and should take place.

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I know he said it wasn't the place for a political discussion, you misunderstand my comment. It was to you regarding If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one

If the sexual orientation of a person has no bearing on opinions why even bring it up?

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Many children die everyday on both sides, Fran. Why? Because Hamas has a political prisoner, a soldier named Gilad Shalit. They want to end the blockade, all they have to do is let him go. Easy, you'd think. But this is grown into much more than that by now. There is no proof Gilad Shalit is even still living, Hamas has ignored requests for the International Red Cross to see him. But I guess he doesn't matter very much, he's only a human.

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Yes they do die every single day, Twyla.. but I only wish it was as simple as letting a political prisoner go... and Israel has its fair share of those.. including I understand, several Israeli's who were with the convoy.. whenever one side or other gets its way somehow another hoop to jump through miraculously appears...

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

Pasa - If the Israelis are stupid enough to attack the Turks then the sheer weight of numbers of their adversaries will almost certainly cause them a problem. They will also have burnt bridges that the USA strived so hard to build for them. the USA is weakening slowly morally and militarily. All the enemies of the USA have to do is wait until the giant is too weak to respond.

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Was it Yamamoto who said after the Pearl harbour attack that he feared they have awakened a sleeping tiger? I fear in many ways you are right in this Heph, for is it not also said that a tiger is most dangerous when wounded and cornered?

.. and just what is Obama going to do if the Israeli's attack and sink a Turkish warship and maybe their merchantmen in another attempt to break the blockade? He called on NATO support for the war in Afghanistan under the attack on one is an attack on all principle. Nato responded and supported and still supports the US in that war.. can Obama now turn round and say no when Israel attacks Turkey in international waters and Turkey calls for the same support? Turkey has hitherto been Israel's friend.. burning bridges is the least of Israel's worries...

I abhor the ongoing violence in the Middle East -- because so many innocent persons are suffering because of the political ambitions of a few. But when we look closely, we see all sorts of realities that don't always make the papers. From the U.K., here is an article concerning ties to terrorism regarding the so-called "humanitarian" group that sent the ship in. It was a deliberate attempt at provocation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7142977.ece

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Originally Posted by PassionatePhD

I abhor the ongoing violence in the Middle East -- because so many innocent persons are suffering because of the political ambitions of a few. But when we look closely, we see all sorts of realities that don't always make the papers. From the U.K., here is an article concerning ties to terrorism regarding the so-called "humanitarian" group that sent the ship in. It was a deliberate attempt at provocation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7142977.ece

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Now who owns the times I wonder?? Far be it for me to accuse such an illustrious publication of bias..

..as it happens I have links to terrorism.. I know, or knew and liked two people who have been a part of what we call terrorist organinisations.. one an x IRA guy who spent time in prison for his activities.. and when at uni I was friendly with another who was an active supporter of ETA.. and shock horror.. I even shared a few snogs with him... and Kate's parents knew Yasser Arafat, Hanan Ashrawi and several other Palestinian leaders which I didnt know until recently.. her dad also met Golda Meyer and as a child, in of all places, Palestine, David Ben Gurion.. now there are some names to conjure with.. now these links obviously make me a terrorist and also Kate's late parents, and maybe even Kate by association.. but that isnt the point Im trying to make..

Even if we accept the accuracy of the report.. just as the military of many nations are employed in humanitarian relief which are just that.. is it so hard to believe that groups which are claimed to be "terrorist" are so beyond redemption that they have no feeling for their own and can do the same?

Twyla/Others,

I do not see who these two statements can be true at the same time:
1. Israel gave up Gaza for peace
2. Israel controlled Gaza's airspace, borders, and who goes in and out.

With a territory as crowded as Gaza is. I cannot call it anything but an open air prison.

I am sorry, but nothing pisses me off more than the racist Israeli policies except for someone blatantly defending them. Stop with the victim mentality, Israel has been offered complete peace from EVERY single Arab state and they refuse to take it. They want the whole land but without the people who are living on it. How do they deal with that? they separate them out with walls and restrict their movement. These are facts on the ground. Talk to any Israeli and ask them one question, have they seen any of the Palestinian town? Most would say no. Most would have visited a settlement up the hill while haven't even seen the town below. They travel on Jewish only highways to Jerusalem and Telaviv. Those who did see how the Palestinians are fairing under Israeli occupation understand.

Anyway, do your research. Find out what is going on with an open mind.

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

Sheesh, why is it no one can post a thing without being told they were wrong. I did not say that Israel owned the Gaza Strip, I stated they gave it up for peace and were drawn deeper into a war.

Now, again all the posturing in the world will not make anyone think anything different about a political action by a group of activists. I stand by what I said, remember there are humans on both sides with rights to defend.

And Celticmagic........please do not insult people on this board with those kind of remarks. There is not a nation in this world that is above or below any other nation.

Unless your Israel, then it appears the world can kick you and expect you to smile politely while you ask for another.

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Who does own the Times? I'm in the US -- and if we are wary of the Times because of its ownership, are we also wise enough to study the ownership of the other publications that may represent the other side of the political spectrum?

Hardnbubbly, you have no idea whether my mind is open or not. I am not a person who just sits on the net and goes omg it's on the net, it must be true. I'm a person who loves history and I can tell you that since it's inception as a state in 1948 Israel has been assaulted by all the Middle Eastern countries that refuse to recognize Israel. Even before they were given this area for a nation, the nation of Israel has a long and varied history. When you are attacked immediately upon the declaration of being a country by all of your surrounding neighbors... yeah that's an offer of peace. The Islamic nations have made it their goal to wipe both Israel and the Jewish people off the face of this earth.

I do not condone terrorism from anyone but it's clear that Israel even fired a warning shot and the ships did not heed it. 5 out of 6 boardings went without trouble, only the last boat did the activists attack the Israelis. If that hadn't happened they would have been turned back and no one would be dead. But it's too much to ask for any semblance of intelligence from people who are blinded by their hatred and preconceived notions. So get pissed that I support Israel, get even more pissed cause I support human rights for everyone.

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Originally Posted by PassionatePhD

Who does own the Times? I'm in the US -- and if we are wary of the Times because of its ownership, are we also wise enough to study the ownership of the other publications that may represent the other side of the political spectrum?

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Yes we are..

..but for your information a certain Australian/American media tycoon owns the Times...

Lets look at this democracy America insists on supporting...

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAE...ST%20STATE.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...state-1.225919
http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-ri...acism-1.234831
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm

Yes its a lovely place to be and to support.. any other country than Israel the US would be taking a much different moral stand...

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Originally Posted by TwylaTwobits

I know he said it wasn't the place for a political discussion, you misunderstand my comment. It was to you regarding If the only place such discussions should take place, is upon a political forum, how is each individual bisexual supposed to know, the sexuality of whomever is posting. Not that it matters, because views are views whatever one's sexuality, but surely the LGBT movement's fight for equality, for all, is a political one

If the sexual orientation of a person has no bearing on opinions why even bring it up?

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Twyla, I knew exactly which piece of that post, to which you were referring. I will admit that I did not word that as well, as I could have done. I had not long been awake and was still sleepy. My apologies if my words came over badly.

What I was trying to say to Paul, was that this forum was about more than bisexuality and bisexual issues. People are more than their sexuality and in the normal scheme of things, are interested in and want to talk about many subjects, from politics to gardening

People, whatever their sexuality, are interested in discussion. Paul seems to think that the subject we are discussing, is more suitable for a political forum. I wonder does he think this about all the other subjects, that I mentioned.

I still believe that you are misunderstanding my words. Though badly phrased, that paragraph and the rest of the post, was trying to say that where discussion of different subjects is concerned, one's sexuality is of no importance and when politics and religion etc, are talked about, on this forum, the conversation will be basically the same as any other site, where such things get discussed.

I was trying to put forward (and badly), that if any of us go on to political forums, religious forums, etc, we are unaware of the sexuality of those posting...unless we ask them (which would be odd, unless the subject was about sexuality), or if another person says what their sexuality is. Therefore, because sexuality, is unimportant when discussing many subjects, such as this particular subject, the attack on the convoy......this site is most definitely a place for a serious subject to be raised.

Even on this site, nobody can be entirely sure about the sexuality of every single person, proving that our sexuality is of no importance, when discussing politics etc....unless the politics etc, has some bearing upon things which affect the LGBT community. I could keep on going around in circles....trying to explain, one badly worded paragraph and end up making the the point I was trying to make, even less understandable.

So, I shall stop and put the misunderstanding down to me being half asleep at the time of writing that post and the USA and the UK, being two peoples separated by a common language.....and sometimes a very different understanding, of the words we utter, than what those words are meant to convery.

Apologies......for the bad grammar......it's hot.....I've been to town and I am tired.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Lets look at this democracy America insists on supporting...

http://www.wake-up-america.net/ISRAE...ST%20STATE.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...state-1.225919
http://www.haaretz.com/news/civil-ri...acism-1.234831
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm

Yes its a lovely place to be and to support.. any other country than Israel the US would be taking a much different moral stand...

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Thank you for these Fran. two of them refused to load, but the second and fourth did. The fourth link, in particular, is very interesting. I fear that, if put before them, a few million people from the other side of the pond, would probably turn their heads away, rather than read, what is on that page, which the link leads to.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

I accept and acknowledge my mistake Pasa.. but for all that there is no rant.. however much you may choose to see it that way.. and I accept the point about picking a fight and losing.. I know who began that war.. but losing a war does not alter the fact that Gaza is not and never has been a part of Israel..

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Now was I a little previous? Since it seems Israel did carry and use automatic weapons... possibly in response to shots fired at them but possibly not... but it does seem that the hand to hand fighting claim may have been exaggerated... I await with interest what is yet to be revealed..

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Originally Posted by Canticle

Thank you for these Fran. two of them refused to load, but the second and fourth did. The fourth link, in particular, is very interesting. I fear that, if put before them, a few million people from the other side of the pond, would probably turn their heads away, rather than read, what is on that page, which the link leads to.

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Try them later Canticle me luffly.. in the meantime try this one about kids educational books in Israel... its a bit old, but not much has changed..

http://www.washington-report.org/bac...9/9909019.html

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Originally Posted by celticmagic

You are wrong, and, please look back as far to the Second World War when Hitler bombed the heck of England.
Israel is in the same situation now, with all the terrorists missiles atcks and bombings from Hamas. If it was not for the USA, you and the French would now be polishing Nazis boots.

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You stated it very well and I quite agree. If she can not acknowledge that TURKEY set this up, she is just plain kidding herself because of her ideology. She is blinded to reality because of her own hate.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Now was I a little previous? Since it seems Israel did carry and use automatic weapons... possibly in response to shots fired at them but possibly not... but it does seem that the hand to hand fighting claim may have been exaggerated... I await with interest what is yet to be revealed..

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seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

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Originally Posted by 69luvr

seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

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Who was it lost lives in an this of piracy? Who is costing lives in an illegal blockade? If, just as an example, North Korean commandos tried the same thing in similar circumstances by boarding an American ship you would condemn the ships crew then as you condemn the crew of the relief ship now.. and you would applaud North Korea for its bravado in stopping the convoy???

..and never lecture me about disregard of human life, Sunny Jim.. it isnt me that supports a racist state which disregards just about any international convention it chooses and slaughters human beings with impunity.. yes Israelis are human.. so are Palestinians..

Yes the "peace" activists were the ones dying. They decided to attack the IDF members, often before they had even detached from the rope. You should be happy only 9 died.

Since Israel controls the border Gaza, they can blockade it. Legally. When Gaza no longer has weapons to fire at Israel, and when Syria, Jordan, and Iran no longer are supplying them with RPGs and automatic weapons, the blockade will end. And, since they can't have weapons shipped in with "relief supplies"...

The flotilla was warned. Repeatedly. They were also given the opportunity to have the "relief supplies" delivered in (after a thorough inspection, of course). The flotilla refused.

The rest of your post was hard to tell who you were accusing of what, so..*shrug*

Pasa

At the beginning of the Mandate in 1918, there were 300,000 Arabs (in that age the term "Palestinian' meant a Jew) in the land, including all of Gaza and the West Bank, and no, they didn't all have 15 children. The rest were brought in by the British in an effort to drown the Zionist movement by force of numbers.

But ... the fact remains this incident took place in international, not Israeli, waters. So the Israelis had no right to do what they did.

And surely it makes sense that the Israelis couldn't be trusted to pass supplies on to Gaza when they are clearly hostile?

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Originally Posted by 69luvr

You stated it very well and I quite agree. If she can not acknowledge that TURKEY set this up, she is just plain kidding herself because of her ideology. She is blinded to reality because of her own hate.

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To which ''she,'' are you referring.......Fran, or myself? And pray tell me......who is it, that is full of hate and therefore, blinded to reality. You really should be more specific, when addressing such issues.

I cannot imagine that Fran would hate anyone....anyone at all, in the true sense of the word, for she will understand that hate is a negative emotion, and hurts the ''hater,'' far more than the ''hated.''

However, we can hate, loathe and despise the things that people, organisations, governments, dictators etc, etc, etc....do, initiate, or take part in.

My feelings about ''hating,'' would be exactly the same.

I have never before, heard of Turkey having bad words or bads relations with Israel. Indeed, Turkey, as a secular state (even if the majority of the population is Muslim), is described, as one of Israel's few friends (depending upon how deep that friendship goes), in that part of the world.

Please remember that Turkey is a European country, desperately wishing to join the EU (foolish people), and I cannot see that the country would jeopardise it's chance, of joining the EU, by becoming involved in actions, likely to cause problems between Israel and itself.

I really do have this strongly held view, that the same could not be said, about the government of Israel. Israel believes it has the God given right, to do exactly as it pleases.

So.......who is the 'she'.....and who does the 'she,' have hatred for and what is this ''ideology,'' of the 'she,'' of which you speak. Your post didn't really expand upon anything......so unless you can explain what you mean, it sort of counts for nought.

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Originally Posted by 69luvr

seeing is believeing! watch the videos! Tell us how any soldier can repel down a rope using two hands and shooting at the same time. TURKEY is not much of an ally to the USA, not that you care. It should be booted from NATO because it denied the USA from flying over Turkey to get to Afghanistan. Back to the videos: I saw ISRAELI soldiers being pummeled by " peace? activists" using metal poles. Israelis were stabbed. There are actual wounds that needed to be cared for. Did they stab themselves? And who threw the ISRALEI soldier from the top deck to the deck below? It surley wasn't by levitation. Your rage and blind disreagrd of human lives is appalling. And yes, ISRAELIS are human!

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Why on earth do you bring the USA into it? What does it matter which country is or is not an ally of the USA. Is there something so very special about the USA, that all countries should be it's ally and think well of it's policies and actions. I think not.

Israeli forces will gun down innocent civilians, including children and think that they have the right to, merely because they are Israel. The inhabitants of the artificially created Israeli state, are not part of the indigenous population. They have been gradually shipped in, over the years.

By the way.......if the people on board that boat....were scared to hell.....just what the Israeli forces might do to them, I can fully understand them arming themselves....in whatever manner.

As for commandos sliding down ropes and being fully armed...or whatever.....when this happens...do not the commandos....of any country....have guns loaded and ready......and are they not trained to be able to swing those weapons into a user mode, as soon as their feet touch the ground, or whatever surface, they are landing upon???????????