Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas

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Originally Posted by æonpax

I'll respect your opinion on this but thankfully, everyone is not you nor thinks like you...or me for that matter. This incident is very important to the LGBT community not becuase in your opinion, "it makes better news" but becuase is another violent crime that has been seen as an affront against gays in general....in a political environment here in the US that is becoming hostile to gays.

The fact that these females were lesbian is NEWS aside from the tragic loss of life. Every time a white cop shoots a black person, it becomes news because of an alleged racist angle to it. To try to deny the fact that such a motivation is possible is an attempt to blow off reality, which is what you are doing with these lesbians.

You can convolute this issue all you want to fit your personal ideology but again, the fact remains, two females who were lesbians were shot for reasons unknown. It is being discussed, much to your chagrin, as a possible hate crime, such as in this HuffPost "Gay Voices" article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1627318.html

You are deliberately downplaying the possibility that they were shot becuase of their orientation, for your own purpose(s).

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I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

I've been checking out some of the stories about this and right off the top of my head I can think of different scenarios that have nothing to do with the sexuality of these two people. The major one coming to mind is drugs. It's a tragedy but just trying to sensationalize it as a LGBT tragedy is indeed "cashing in". Every day in this world someone is the victim of a crime, the sexuality of the person does not make the crime any more or less horrific. So I want to wait before I lament the poor lesbian couple and would rather have the facts in the case and know exactly who did the shooting if not why. But I'd be willing to lay odds it will come down to someone being where they shouldn't have been for an act they shouldn't have been engaging in.

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I agree with your post. It does sound like a drug related crime. These are not bisexual or gay men so they wouldn't have been in a park at 12AM looking for sex like we used to do before the internet! People who are into hard drugs like cocaine, crystal meth, crack, and heroin do however go to parks and other places very late at night or at all hours of the day and night to cop drugs. It could be a scorned ex who went crazy as well, or even a murder-suicide. Even the police chief of that Texas city says how it's not a hate crime and there's no evidence that these women were shot because of their sexual orientation. caller.com/news/2012/jun/26/portland-police-chief-no-evidence-suggest-teenage/

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Originally Posted by ExSailor

I agree with your post. It does sound like a drug related crime. These are not bisexual or gay men so they wouldn't have been in a park at 12AM looking for sex like we used to do before the internet! People who are into hard drugs like cocaine, crystal meth, crack, and heroin do however go to parks and other places very late at night or at all hours of the day and night to cop drugs. It could be a scorned ex who went crazy as well, or even a murder-suicide. Even the police chief of that Texas city says how it's not a hate crime and there's no evidence that these women were shot because of their sexual orientation. caller.com/news/2012/jun/26/portland-police-chief-no-evidence-suggest-teenage/

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Excellent and honest sailor. If it turned out to be an LGBT hate crime, I am sure you would, as I would fight to see the criminals never see the light of day again.

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

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Good point LDD. I read the report an hour ago. In the RIGHT-WING media. Turnabout is fair play. Evil bastards, ON BOTH SIDES, need to be fried. Stir fried even. After they are suitably recruited (forced) by BUBBA to be ... entertaining.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Excellent and honest sailor. If it turned out to be an LGBT hate crime, I am sure you would, as I would fight to see the criminals never see the light of day again.

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Even if it's a hate crime or isn't one I still don't want the person who murdered the one woman and tried to kill the other one to see freedom ever again.

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Joan,

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I think you are making a mistake and missing the point.
Prove it.

The fact these young women were attacked, whether lesbian, bi, or straight, is a complete tragedy.
No one said it wasn’t.

The fact one of them is dead and the other fighting for her life absolutely sucks.
I agree

Those responsible must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I think everyone agrees on these facts. At least I hope everyone does.
I agree

The fact is ALL media, right-wing or left-wing, is just media these days. They are not reporters. They are spinners.
Now that is your opinion and to a certain extent, I agree. However, what makes to come to that conclusion? Can you cite examples? Do you think this particular news article had a spin to it and why? What do you consider good journalistic reporting and why?


Why is it so important they were LESBIAN lovers? because it serves the media agenda (and yours from what I see).
Because, it is “topical” which is to say, pertaining to or dealing with matters of current or local interest. Like it or not, Gay rights and incidences involving gays has the attention of the nation. The same holds true for the elections, voting rights and the recent SCOTUS decision on immigration. It's all topical.


Why is it so important they are young? because it is better in sensation - "Cut down. In the prime of life."
Good question. Any assault, anywhere, especially involving a murder of young people, is news. Would you tell the media to stop reporting of murders and assaults because you don’t like it? Did the age of the victims offend you? Do you remember when Elizabeth Smart was abducted? Should the media have ignored her age and religion becuase YOU feel it's sensational?


Why is it so important they are in Texas? because we have had high profile stories blown up by the media in the past that make Texans look like right-wing, bigoted, red-necked, serial-killer, rubes. And yes, there are more than a few idiots to justify that.
1) This happened in Texas. Would you have liked it better if the news agencies kept the location a secret or made up a new location, lets say Alabama or North Dakota?
2) The article did NOT mention Texas other than a location. Your reference to a few of the citizens there as being right-wing, bigots and red necks may have merit but it is NOT what the story was about. Please remain focused.


These women need justice, not spin. If the evidence shows it is a hate crime, the bastards should be hung from a tree. If not, they should still be hung from a tree.
Can you point out the supposed “spin” in this article or are you assuming something without facts? I agree whomever was responsible for this should be prosecuted and punished to the fullest extent of the law. Unlike you though, I do not believe in “mob justice” nor “capitol punishment.”


Crime is crime. Sick as it is. Do you, or anyone else, seriously think you can determine someone's motives for a crime without a confession? If so, I seriously need to come see you to get my head straightened out. lol.
I seriously see you are looking for any wacky idea, no matter how far fetched, how unrealistic and how contrived, to derail this thread. What you just stated proved absolutely nothing other than your inability to accept facts as they are. Moreover, you blame me for reporting ,verbatim, something that hundreds of other news agencies are reporting in the same exact language.

I can respect your opinion that you disagree with what you perceive, (for reasons you did not fully articulate) as being sensationalistic reporting, but I don't agree. Now you can close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and keep saying La la la, but that is not going to change the reality that many people feel and think, this could be a hate crime against homosexuals.

If you have ever read Don Quixote, there is a point where the stories protagonist criticizes Quixote for not seeing "life as it is" to which he replies most poignantly, what is life as it is? Quixote had seen the horrors of war and it overwhelmed him..."life as it is." Does the media have a responsibility not to overwhelm the viewer in reporting "life as it is"...in all it's unpleasantries? Now that's for you to decide. For me, I don't want mine sanitized or editorialized.

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

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First, may I suggest you contact the hundreds of agencies worldwide that have reported this incident and voice to them your objections. I do not see your objections as being unreasonable, albeit unrealistic and short-sighted. While you are at it, please contact all the LGBT organizations with your protests.

It is YOU bringing up sexuality. It is YOU mentioning sexuality and it is YOU with the problem here. You also don't like my opinion but hey, deal with it.

It's not a perfect world my friend, you just have to know your own limitations if you want to change things. Whining to me about something I posted is rather useless...usless. of course, your real intention is something other than than to be critical about journalistic techniques.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

First, may I suggest you contact the hundreds of agencies worldwide that have reported this incident and voice to them your objections. I do not see your objections as being unreasonable, albeit unrealistic and short-sighted. While you are at it, please contact all the LGBT organizations with your protests.

It is YOU bringing up sexuality. It is YOU mentioning sexuality and it is YOU with the problem here. You also don't like my opinion but hey, deal with it.

It's not a perfect world my friend, you just have to know your own limitations if you want to change things. Whining to me about something I posted is rather useless...usless. of course, your real intention is something other than than to be critical about journalistic techniques.

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I am still waiting to see ANY legal outfit prove that the sexuality had ANYTHING to do with the tragedy..... and until that point, the sexuality of the females is simply and bluntly to make headlines.... I reckon if they were not lesbians, the headline would have read two teens shot in Texas and not two heterosexual teens shot in texas, and you would have not bothered to post it in here, cos they are heterosexuals.....

as for me bringing up sexuality.... WTF is your thread titled ??? teletubbles riot in texas ???? barney the dinosaur has a sex change in arkansas ??? wonder woman joins WBC in texas ? ????? nope, its Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas.......

now I will say it again, its a fucking tragedy, I hope in the event that its proven to be a crime, that justice is done... not cos they are lesbians, teens, females or they shave their fucking legs and wax their bikini lines..... but cos justice needs to be done, cos they are PEOPLE, not just lesbians teens from texas, but people....

I am pretty fucking sure that their parents are not mourning what happened to their lesbian children, but to their own flesh and blood, their kin, their children....and I am not overly sure that they are happy about the fact that the tragedy is being made any more of a tragedy in peoples eyes, just cos they are lesbians.....

on a foot note, why have you not posted anything about the reopening of the case in australia from the 80s, where the police now believe that up to 10 if not more, gay males may have been pushed to their deaths over the side of a cliff at a gay cruising spot... cos if that is proven to be a hate crime, it is going to be one of the worst that australia has ever seen......

I was asked to produce evidence that a) crimes against gays or the LGBT are on the rise. b) I also volunteered to make the correlation between such crimes and the rise in anti-gay rhetoric coming from the conservative right.

I’ll start with a);

Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting - Hate crimes committed against LGBTs in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2011 included 30 murders, the highest number ever recorded by a coalition of anti-violence organizations. The deaths, an 11 percent increase from 2010 (when there were 27), were among statistics in an annual report the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs issued on May 31. But in New England -- where none of the reported murders occurred -- increased reporting is beginning to address the problem. - http://www.edgenewyork.com/news/loca...does_reporting


Crimes against LGBT community are up, despite social gains - Violent crimes, including murder, increased last year against people identifying themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT), and people of color among those groups were most likely to be targeted, an advocacy group reports.

A report last month by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, a group that supports victims of anti-LGBT harassment, found: (read the link) - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...l-survey_n.htm


Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs report says violent crimes against people in the LGBT community rose 13% in 2010, and that minorities and transgender women were more likely to be targeted. - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...rimes-20110713


Hate Crimes Against LGBTQ People Highest In 14 Years - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects today released a collective report on hate crimes against LGBTQ people. Despite increased public and political acceptance of gays and lesbians, the number of crimes against LGBTQ people is the highest since 1998, the year they began tallying such attacks and also the year Matthew Shepard was murdered. - http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/hat...-14-years.html

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

1) I am still waiting to see ANY legal outfit prove that the sexuality had ANYTHING to do with the tragedy..... and until that point, the sexuality of the females is simply and bluntly to make headlines.... I reckon if they were not lesbians, the headline would have read two teens shot in Texas and not two heterosexual teens shot in texas, and you would have not bothered to post it in here, cos they are heterosexuals.....

2) as for me bringing up sexuality.... WTF is your thread titled ??? teletubbles riot in texas ???? barney the dinosaur has a sex change in arkansas ??? wonder woman joins WBC in texas ? ????? nope, its Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas.......

3) now I will say it again, its a fucking tragedy, I hope in the event that its proven to be a crime, that justice is done... not cos they are lesbians, teens, females or they shave their fucking legs and wax their bikini lines..... but cos justice needs to be done, cos they are PEOPLE, not just lesbians teens from texas, but people....

4) I am pretty fucking sure that their parents are not mourning what happened to their lesbian children, but to their own flesh and blood, their kin, their children....and I am not overly sure that they are happy about the fact that the tragedy is being made any more of a tragedy in peoples eyes, just cos they are lesbians.....

5) on a foot note, why have you not posted anything about the reopening of the case in australia from the 80s, where the police now believe that up to 10 if not more, gay males may have been pushed to their deaths over the side of a cliff at a gay cruising spot... cos if that is proven to be a hate crime, it is going to be one of the worst that australia has ever seen......

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1) Look at my original post. I said it was too early to tell if it was a hate crime.

2) I quoted the headline. Would you have preferred I made up something that did not mention the gender or orientation of the victims?

3) Thank you Captain Obvious.

4) What's your point in all that? See #3

5) Is this a trick question? I live in the US and can barely keep up with the news here. If you consider it important, then by all means, post it.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

1) Look at my original post. I said it was too early to tell if it was a hate crime.

2) I quoted the headline. Would you have preferred I made up something that did not mention the gender or orientation of the victims?

3) Thank you Captain Obvious.

4) What's your point in all that? See #3

5) Is this a trick question? I live in the US and can barely keep up with the news here. If you consider it important, then by all means, post it.

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1) what does your original post have to do with what I said in my post... I never mentioned your original post, nor did I mention hate crime in the paragraph you are refering to

2) yeah you quoted the headline, than accused me of bringing up sexuality.... so was sexuality first mentioned by me, or by you ????

3) once again, I am not making it about sexuality, and nor are the cops, the media is doing that quite nicely

4) my point is that the parents are lamenting what happened to their daughters, their flesh and blood... and I would be surprised if they are crying bigger tears cos of the sexuality of their daughters....

5) well I assumed since you had so much time to misread what I post and then put words in my mouth that I did not say, that you would have time to check out some of the other big LGBT issues going on around the world......

so lets try this again... I am not making it about sexuality, that was done by the media.... I see a tragedy, they see a way make a headline stand out.... I see a possible crime, the media see sexuality, I see two teen females shot in strange circumstances, the media sees lesbians and a possible hate crime..... I see a family strugging with the loss of a daughter and another family with a daughter in hospital, the media sees a dead lesbian and a lesbian in hospital.....the police see two teens shot at night with a large calibre gun, the media sees two lesbians, the police see no connection between the sexuality and the event, the media sees lesbians....

I could go on and on.... but my point is simple, its tragic, my heart goes out to the family, if its a crime, i hope that justice is done fairly etc etc... and the sexuality still doesn't matter to me.... only to the media and you

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

1) what does your original post have to do with what I said in my post... I never mentioned your original post, nor did I mention hate crime in the paragraph you are refering to

2) yeah you quoted the headline, than accused me of bringing up sexuality.... so was sexuality first mentioned by me, or by you ????

3) once again, I am not making it about sexuality, and nor are the cops, the media is doing that quite nicely

4) my point is that the parents are lamenting what happened to their daughters, their flesh and blood... and I would be surprised if they are crying bigger tears cos of the sexuality of their daughters....

5) well I assumed since you had so much time to misread what I post and then put words in my mouth that I did not say, that you would have time to check out some of the other big LGBT issues going on around the world......

so lets try this again... I am not making it about sexuality, that was done by the media.... I see a tragedy, they see a way make a headline stand out.... I see a possible crime, the media see sexuality, I see two teen females shot in strange circumstances, the media sees lesbians and a possible hate crime..... I see a family strugging with the loss of a daughter and another family with a daughter in hospital, the media sees a dead lesbian and a lesbian in hospital.....the police see two teens shot at night with a large calibre gun, the media sees two lesbians, the police see no connection between the sexuality and the event, the media sees lesbians....

I could go on and on.... but my point is simple, its tragic, my heart goes out to the family, if its a crime, i hope that justice is done fairly etc etc... and the sexuality still doesn't matter to me.... only to the media and you

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First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian. Does that offend you? It seems to. The media reports on specific crimes against; gays, Jews, Islamics, women, blacks, Latino's, elderly and handicapped. Do you oppose this kind of reporting too? If you have an ax to grind against journalism and reporting methods such as Who, What, When, Where and Why? take it to those who teach it and maintain that structure.

You are looping yourself here. Any human death is a tragedy and loved ones morn. No sane person will say otherwise. What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation". I may be wrong but in my opinion, you are hiding behind the human agony of death in order to take pot shots at a legitimate topic such as violence against gays....a topic that tens of millions are concerned about.

You can be such a phoney sometimes. At least have the backbone to admit what you are really doing, instead of harping on false issues that only exist with you and those who share your ideology about homosexuals.

I'll phrase my statement so it could be better understood by some parties. The deaths of two strangers is a tragic thing and is not the business of gossiping magpies on an adult chat board, no matter how they try to make it so . . . is that better?

jesus christ..... do you listen to yourself... ????

I do not give a fuck about their sexuality, their orientation, the state of their hair last year during the full moon at 2.13 in the morning on a tuesday in june......

I have posted a number of times in the forum about how I see things in terms of basic human rights for people, I leave the politicking and all that BS for people like you and fran that like to go on about religion and politics etc etc, I really could not give a rats ass about that shit.....

I saw the same BS when my former bisexual / lesbian sister and her lesbian partner died of aids and the LGBT community suddenly had a interest in it cos they were lesbians that died of aids and all wanted to be a part of the funeral and do interviews with me about what happened etc... and I turned around and said how many of you fuckers ever bothered to send them a card, a email, ring them, call in and say hi.... and they wanted to talk about how they wanted to give their condolences and pay their respects.... my answer was no, you want to turn their funerals into a fucking media circus and get attention for your cause.....

I lost a best friend and a sister, two of the people that I loved so much, but they only mattered when other people could use them to get attention for themselves... up until that point, most of the LGBT never gave a fuck about them and kept the hell away...... skye was so much more than just a sexuality / orientation, she was my sister, my friend, my supporter and I was not the only one that loved her to bits.....

to the LGBT media community, she was just a lesbian that died of aids and somebody to make a story out of.....

so yeah, call me a phoney all you want..... I have lived thru the pain, the heartache and the loss that one family is going thru.... the loss of a family member that also happened to be a lesbian... so I know just how much it can hurt and how much of a pack of assholes the media can be when it comes to dehumanising a person and turning them into a headline

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Originally Posted by æonpax

I was asked to produce evidence that a) crimes against gays or the LGBT are on the rise. b) I also volunteered to make the correlation between such crimes and the rise in anti-gay rhetoric coming from the conservative right.

I’ll start with a);

Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting - Hate crimes committed against LGBTs in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2011 included 30 murders, the highest number ever recorded by a coalition of anti-violence organizations. The deaths, an 11 percent increase from 2010 (when there were 27), were among statistics in an annual report the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs issued on May 31. But in New England -- where none of the reported murders occurred -- increased reporting is beginning to address the problem. - http://www.edgenewyork.com/news/loca...does_reporting


Crimes against LGBT community are up, despite social gains - Violent crimes, including murder, increased last year against people identifying themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT), and people of color among those groups were most likely to be targeted, an advocacy group reports.

A report last month by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, a group that supports victims of anti-LGBT harassment, found: (read the link) - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...l-survey_n.htm


Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs report says violent crimes against people in the LGBT community rose 13% in 2010, and that minorities and transgender women were more likely to be targeted. - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...rimes-20110713


Hate Crimes Against LGBTQ People Highest In 14 Years - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects today released a collective report on hate crimes against LGBTQ people. Despite increased public and political acceptance of gays and lesbians, the number of crimes against LGBTQ people is the highest since 1998, the year they began tallying such attacks and also the year Matthew Shepard was murdered. - http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/hat...-14-years.html

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I think the first headline/notation says it all - Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting.

REPORTING is up. That is why you hear more about it and why the statistics have risen. Yes, that is a good thing. Crimes against people should ALL be reported and responded to. Not just because they are black or latino. Not just because they are Bi, Les, or TG. But because they are CRIMES!

"First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian."

ok. pardon my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference?

"What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation"."

no. that makes it sensationalism. News would be - "Two women found shot in the park". Even in Houston or Dallas, that doesn't happen every day. That makes it news. Adding color or sexuality makes it sensationalistic spin for a political purpose.

*void comes dancing along, stops upon seeing it ... gasps ... runs to it and leaps on it, catching it firmly ... he stands back up and dances about madly brandishing the 'nutball brush' and singing "my precious, precious precious", splattering nutball paint all over randomly as he dances on ...*

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Originally Posted by Annika L

Seriously? Two people dead, and it's nobody else's business but theirs and their families? Criminy, what do we pay police detectives for, I wonder? I mean, there's a killer on the streets (unless it was an extremely clever double suicide), but hey, it's not really anyone else's business, right?

In general, just to throw my two cents in as a reader of the thread (and I'm sure I'll be seen simply jumping in on the activist side, or maybe the women's side if there is one in this case), but all I saw was Joan *entertaining the possibility* that this could be a hate crime, given the circumstantial evidence...not inferring that it actually was, or claiming it was and then denying the claim.

Such rancor in this thread, sheesh. Feels a lot more to me like highschool pettiness than a discussion of anything; more to do with who dislikes whom than with who said what.

I eagerly await being told what I just said.

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You said we need more silver because of it somehow mysteriously vanishing when I come to visit. And no, I'm not using it to support a meth/dragon habit despite that possibly being a first consideration. I actually have an allergy of silver, something to do with mother Luna. * void dances on to the local Habibb shop to buy stainless steel flatware, singing the hairy eel song as he goes * Oh, you also said that if I can make you laugh, we can go out for coffee later. ;)

Ha! And I agree with you. Now, let me move this bishop to diamond jack, plus one fly ball and presto I got Rummy!

Seriously, I agree. Aeon did not say it absolutely was a hate crime. While I may feel her implications were given to sensationalism, that is merely my opinion. Brass tacks, she did not state it was a hate crime, even posted a pull quote, quoting the police whom said they were unsure, that it being a hate crime may be considered. Frankly, it sounds like the police are doing their job, investigating a homicide.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

*void comes dancing along, stops upon seeing it ... gasps ... runs to it and leaps on it, catching it firmly ... he stands back up and dances about madly brandishing the 'nutball brush' and singing "my precious, precious precious", splattering nutball paint all over randomly as he dances on ...*

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I think I've been splashed with some of that "nutball paint", but not in a violent sort of way. lol

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

You said we need more silver because of it somehow mysteriously vanishing when I come to visit. And no, I'm not using it to support a meth/dragon habit despite that possibly being a first consideration. I actually have an allergy of silver, something to do with mother Luna. * void dances on to the local Habibb shop to buy stainless steel flatware, singing the hairy eel song as he goes * Oh, you also said that if I can make you laugh, we can go out for coffee later. ;)

Ha! And I agree with you. Now, let me move this bishop to diamond jack, plus one fly ball and presto I got Rummy!

Seriously, I agree. Aeon did not say it absolutely was a hate crime. While I may feel her implications were given to sensationalism, that is merely my opinion. Brass tacks, she did not state it was a hate crime, even posted a pull quote, quoting the police whom said they were unsure, that it being a hate crime may be considered. Frankly, it sounds like the police are doing their job, investigating a homicide.

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Aye, matey! Finally, someone who can read *and* write!! Just gie me back the silver, and I'll happily supply ye wi' all the reusable plasticware ye can shake a rude stick at (or at least eat potater salad wi').

Now I don't *exactly* recall the line about the coffee...but what the hell, you've got Rummy and you did make me laugh, so it's your call! Where and what time should we meet?

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annika L

Now I don't *exactly* recall the line about the coffee...but what the hell, you've got Rummy and you did make me laugh, so it's your call! Where and what time should we meet?

---

Would love to reach over and gently lay a hand on your shoulder as I've been keen to have done in the past. Had a friend tell me, I could come to GA to see him. He excused himself to get the door, there I was. Still not sure how I used to do that, just did. Lately, seems whatever rules effect normal folks are catching up to me. "Void, you just cannot be in two, or two thousand places at once. It's inconceivable and rude!" Or so some muckity muck tells me.

Let's us leave that open. Definitely want to pay a visit though, hell may even get a notion for a *gasp* beer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

I think I've been splashed with some of that "nutball paint", but not in a violent sort of way. lol

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*void snickers and blushes* I almost doused elian with nutball paint earlier. Darn wires got in the way. Un/fortunately he went to bed, without me is the unfortunate of it. Can assure you if it were just a matter of druthers, mine would be in his bed.

[QUOTE=falcondfw;232572] I think the first headline/notation says it all - Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting.
REPORTING is up. That is why you hear more about it and why the statistics have risen. Yes, that is a good thing. Crimes against people should ALL be reported and responded to. Not just because they are black or latino. Not just because they are Bi, Les, or TG. But because they are CRIMES! [/QUOTE]

Selective reading and on top of it, just the headlines. Did you check out the stats on that link? Of course not. They indicate a a RISE. Did you check out the stats and graphs on the other links? Of course not. You don't want to facts and data to interfere with your fantasy.

Get real dude. Next time you post, at least try to give me the false impression you actually read something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

"First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian."

1) ok. pardon my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference?

"What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation"."

20 no. that makes it sensationalism. News would be - "Two women found shot in the park". Even in Houston or Dallas, that doesn't happen every day. That makes it news. Adding color or sexuality makes it sensationalistic spin for a political purpose.

---

1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biguy71

1) I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. 2) There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.

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`

1) Discussion.

2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting - http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html

3) See post #51 in this thread. - http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13117-Teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-the-head-in-Texas&p=232552&viewfull=1#post232552

Quote:

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Originally Posted by æonpax

[/FONT]
1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

---

Joan,

On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.

On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil. What Fing planet are you from, anyway?

I am tired of your BS games. Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic. THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act". This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and you are a fool if you do not agree.

Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.". Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life. And YOU are spinning it!

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

The point is TWO WOMEN ARE DEAD. That is what is important. In your undisquised political agenda, you seem to have forgotten that.

Whatever the case with this case is, I feel sorry for the families and friends of these two young ladies. The clues will come to light eventually, or they wont. Point is, two families are grieving, and one's life willnever be the same again. :(
Spirits bless the remaining young woman, and let her healing begin in her heart and mind soon.
Cat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Joan,

1) On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.
2) On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil.
2a) What Fing planet are you from, anyway?
3) I am tired of your BS games.
3a) Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic.
3b) THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act".
3c)This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and
3d) you are a fool if you do not agree.
4) Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.".
4a) Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life.
4b) And YOU are spinning it!

---

`
1) Why are you playing dumb? If you do not know the difference between "sexuality" and "orientation", you should not be in this discussion/argument. I'm not here to educate you or anyone else. Furthermore, you have completely failed to answer any of the questions I have posed to you. So please, give it a rest.

2) Yes, please PROVE that the headline and article I posted at the top of this thread is "Sensationalistic" You claim it is but provided no proof or insight as to why you think it is.

2a) Don’t tempt me to say where I think you’re from.

3) Too bad, so sad. It might help if you knew how to mount a constructive argument. This site can help you - http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i.../how-to-argue/

3a) Then produce “Anyone” to explain to me why they think the headline/article is spin, as you are unable.

3b) Who said it wasn’t? That has nothing to do with this discussion.

3c) I’m in a very magnanimous mood right now. Check this link out - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&g....0.nZJL3JpJkew – and count how many news sources, many mainstream, use the phrase “teen lesbian” in headlining this incident. I count well over 350. Tell me why these people are wrong for using that phrase…if you can.

3d) Warning…please try to keep this civil.

4) Why are you quoting the “faux news” logo? That has nothing to do with this. Again, please remain focused on the topic.

4a) I feel the same way too which is my I do not get my news from faux, MSNBC or CNN.

4b) You are repeating yourself. I asked you a few times to prove any of your accusations and you avoid doing so.
`
`

Synopsis – Let me help you out here. You are giving me your “opinion”. Opinions are NOT fact. An opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. Opinions are never right or wrong they are merely a figment of what someone believes. However it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments.

I have asked you to support your opinions, either with fact or logic. You have refused, which you can do. There is no rule that you must. However, if you are going to argue that what you say is fact, not opinion, then you have to support that, which you have again failed to do.

It is good to respect another's opinions but at the same time, a person does not have to believe them or give them any credence. As you have provided absolutely NO evidence, proof or even a logical argument to bolster your opinions, I am free to dismiss them in the manner in which I choose. In your case, I absolutely reject your opinions based on lack of any evidence, whatsoever.

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

---

I think this pretty well sums up where you are coming from.

This is rather pathetic, really two young women are dead. The reasoning behind it is as of right now unknown. So why are people here in these forums arguing among themselves? Why not let the detectives do their jobs and find out who is responsible and why it happened. Instead of bickering like children perhaps a bit of respect towards the two young women is more prudent. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation was, it doesn't matter where they are from. All that matters is that what happened was life shattering. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to drag it out in the forums is rather childish especially over a topic such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to the families that were impacted by such a tragedy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elian

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

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`

There is a human dynamics behind every...and I mean EVERY news story out there. It is so omnipresent that many times we fail to remember that. 9/11, for example was all about human courage, suffering and perseverance. But it was also much, much more than that and went beyond the scope of the human condition.

Many of the news articles I posted here in reference to the teen lesbian assault, brought up the human side of this. Interviews with parents, classmates and loved ones, but it would appear no one read those articles and/or chose not to comment on what they said. Instead, I see here arguments about the semantics of reporting...not to mention those with other ulterior motives.

To report news, only through the pathos aspect, renders such a story incomplete and is an egregious disservice to those who read news for a complete story. Hundreds of innocents are killed in the Mideast becuase of war and drone assassinations. Their pain and suffering is no less or worse than those who loved the teens assaulted in Texas...but that is not the whole story.

I agree, let's not discard the human condition here but at the same time, lose sight of the fact that this incident, is being felt my many, to be part of a larger picture and want to be informed about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elian

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

---

gonna go off topic to address what you said.....

I was once a soldier.... one day, I had a guy in my sights, spotter gave me details and I was about to pull the trigger....and something happened in my mind.... the psychs reckon I snapped... I never snapped, pulling the trigger would have easy ( something I was to prove later in life )... instead, I stopped thinking in terms of US and Them.......

maybe its taught to us, maybe its a instinctive thing, maybe its just a survival trait.... but we constantly do the US v's THEM, thing... and dehumanize everything, including ourselves, in order to think that way.... and its a bit like this thread.... there has been talk in other sites about how it could be a hate crime, but what if the other people were LGBT as well, something that has happened in the past.... a US vs US situation... LGBT against LGBT... suddenly there is no US vs THEM issue, and most people do not know how to handle it, so they adapt a new approach of " we could not be like that person, we are * normal * people " and so people find another reason to *dehumanize the other person and ourselves, by creating a new * sub group *, the normal people Vs the not normal people....

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc

what went thru my mind that day, was that I was about to put a bullet in another person, a son / brother / nephew / uncle, somebody with skills, abilities, feelings thoughts and emotions, a sexuality / orientation.. not just a enemy combatant that was going to do the same to me.....

its the same thing that went thru my mind when I first read the thread... they dehumanized the ladies into lesbians... and people reacted with the * crimes against the LGBT * instead of a life lost and another adversely effected..... we the offended and angry v's the ( possible ) offender/s that deserves justice.....
the only time that we mostly stop dehumanizing people is when its the ones we care about, cos we actually know them....and even then, we will say things like its time that the LGBT stop suffering at the hands of other people... and forget that the LGBT are more than capable of doing it to themselves and us.... cos we are no different to the rest of humanity, we just like to dehumanize others so we can like think we are and use that as the reason that society does to us what it does......

hugs elian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc

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What you're describing sounds like something called attachment to aversion, maybe at least from a Buddhist perspective. I have seen much the same as you, subtle differences but in general principle, the same visions. Find it a shame humanity cannot, will not mature enough to unleash itself from this attachment. Of course, know I'm a great one to speak.

Also in case it has been missed, I find this incident quite tragic. My best thoughts and wishes to my rock are being sent to the families. Here's hoping the young lady fighting makes it and can provide a map to the aggressor/s. Let us set aside differences and share that hope. Seem to recall someone telling folks that faith can move mountains.

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

annika, I respect what you are saying...

personally, I would have focused more on what happened, with the intention of seeking information about what happened, as its not something that happens every day in texas... as it is the type of tragedy that stands out from a tragedy where the police have all the info they need..... and yes, the fact that they were lesbians and lovers could have been put in a more tactful way.....but I am not sure that it would rate the attention that its getting if the headline was worded differently, cos a lot of people may have briefly read the headline and not the article....

one of the first articles I read about the tragedy was about 7 paragraphs long, the last paragraph was about what happened, the first 6 were about how they lived in a dorm and were lovers for 5 months and how the parents and friends felt about them being lesbians.... and that really got at me, cos it was more about their sexuality and their personal life, than it was about what happened..... and to me, that was just so wrong.... it came across like the only reason it was newsworthy was cos of the sexuality.....

but yes, agreed, the LGBT community have a right to know about things like this.... trouble is a lot of things like this, go unnoticed cos nobody shares them with the rest of the LGBT community....unless they make headlines on the level that this event has..... its why I mentioned the other two events in my posts.. and noticed that nobody else had mentioned them.... one of them may be australias biggest anti LGBT crime that country has ever seen.....

this is the one about australia
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/austral...ay-hate-murder

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annika L

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

---

Unfortunately, this issue, as being discussed here, has the stench of political and ideological hypocrisy brought forth by its objectors. There are those here who hide behind the idea that the victims of this crime should not have been identified by their orientation, which is lesbian, then claim to be concerned about the rights of those in the LGBT. There is a big dichotomy here.

First, it was the police report that mentioned the females were lesbians ( http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/26/...shot-in-texas/ ) and that was obtained from one of the victims parents. It was also verified through classmates and friends. All the reporters did was copy the police information.

Second, this issue is being reported by all the major networks (AP, Reuters, ABC, CNS, NBC, CNN, BBC, et al) as being an assault on "teen lesbians"...except for one network....FOX, which refuses to identify them by their orientation. I'm not surprised considering their obvious ultra conservative bias.

I respect the opinions of those who claim some kind of altruistic objection to the fact these victims were identified as lesbian but despite their unsubstantiated and politically motivated protests, the story...unedited, is gaining its own momentum as a possible crime against a homosexuals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcondfw

Tenni,
You are about the rudest SOB on this site and i am tired of your BS.
I don't make assumptions enough to paint a whole society based on what I see in the movies and based on what one idiot friend says.
I prefer to do my research based on facts and make up my own mind. Obviously, this is too difficult a concept for your frozen brain to handle or maybe you just don't have a mind to think with on your own or maybe it is living in the socialist paradise of Canada. Prepare to be assimilated!
I also have friends from Canada down here who love it. As a matter of fact, I worked with one of them for over 10 years in 4 different companies that had us travel from Florida to Colorado to here. So screw what your friend says.
I've been nice up til now, but I don't play doormat to anyone.
If you don't like me or my opinions f off. I try to only debate the topic and not attack the person, but when personally attacked ,,, the gloves come off.

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Falcon I do wish to apologize for connecting your state to high rates of murder by guns. I did look it up and yes I was writing partial bigoted statements. Your state is one of the states were fewer murders have happened by guns compared to other states in your country. However, your entire country is one the countries with the most murders by guns in the entire world. Sixty four percent of murders in Texas in 2010 used guns.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...crime-us-state


As far as my friend is concerned, he is not an idiot. My friend lived in San Antonio and has a doctorate.(now who is being judgmental and bigoted?) He is a very intelligent, progressive thinking man and that is why I give his words credence. He did make reference to his observation about guns in your state. Your writing indicates a certain attitude that he referred to many people in your state as having.

Please note that I did not make any personal attack on you personally. You however have. I would agree that I live in a more socialist society, less homophobic. We don't see wearing a kilt as wearing a dress/skirt. (an issue that my friend had with some homophobic people in San Antonio..he is hetero btw). I won't write the words that were used to describe your society(further upset you). If you followed your own advice you would have presented your research.