For those wondeing what biphobia is and what it looks like

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

Don't quite know what to make of this. Especially puzzling is " Apologies if a high opinion of a friend offends you." What friend are you referring to? And once again, the comment "Pepper just might get it after all," comes across as snide & condescending , trademark qualities of yours. Also, your closing comments hint at sarcasm. So which is it? Are you genuinely trying to get along again or are you baiting me...stupid question,I just realized, you wouldn't admit to it if it were true ( yes,smart people have their moments of stupidity ). I guess only time will tell.

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No condescension was meant. I am genuinely impressed you stepped outside the perceptions which conceived themselves on the forum. And yes, I can admit some of the perceptions were bore of inability to see you beyond my own ignorance. You stepped beyond that in the comments here, disproving a lot of negative perceptions I had of you. Thank you for being able to do that, and doing it.

Despite some disagreeing opinions, I would hope we could be friends. Guess that means you would be the friend to which I refer and have a high opinion of. I felt you were capable of revealing this level of understanding some time ago. You saw me misunderstanding you, chose to dump flack on me instead of revealing it. Granted, if I were perhaps in your shoes, I may have done the same. In fact, I know I have been cause of a lot of negativity. Some came from seeing you not able to admit understanding, and if you did and I missed it, then we can both laugh at the cosmos.

Yes my closing was sarcasm meant as friendly levity and jest. Friends do that from what I hear from people with friends. They joke around. I have no such stickers to dole out labeling haters, nor would I likely attend a symposium, monthly or otherwise. I'm trying to state a serious thing in a funny way. Probably no good at it as everything comes out/across wrong, argumentative. But I'm not trying to attack or cause a stir here. I'm genuinely making an effort to embrace merriment, friendship.

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Originally Posted by Gearbox

I'm just guessing WHY bi's have less interest in these events than homosexuals. It's not zero, but notably less though, and there must be a reason for it.

Well I know a great way how to make us feel felt.:rolleyes: Besides that, I don't believe bisexuality is invisible to start with. It's ignored, denied, suppressed and very discrete. But not invisible. Not to those of which it matters.
We could come out in numbers and flood the streets to show those who don't give a toss about it. But, I get the impression that that isn't something most bi's are inclined to do.
I'd hazard a guess that bisexuality is viewed by bisexuals as a personal freedom, not an identity under threat of heterosexuality.
Guessing btw!:tongue:

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I do not have the answers to your statements.... but most of the bisexuals that I know in NZ, ( allowing for a difference in culture and country ) don't want to be visible in the media cos they are tired of stereotype images in the media and public eye......

we did have a gay tv program in NZ ( since ended ) that was a gay and lesbian 30 minute / once a week program for the LGBT community...and it did cater for bisexual people in a very positive light, covering aspects like biphobia, bi invisibility, bi discrimination and bisexual relationships ( including multi partner / open relationships ) and something that a few bisexuals on the program referred to as the biggest issue within the bisexual community, BI ignorance.... or discounting the thoughts, feelings and interests of bisexuals that do not fit the *status quo * or pushing a bisexual agenda that is not inclusive of the bisexual community but only some of the bisexual community... and how it would serve to ensure a false image of bisexuality.....

the interesting thing about the bisexual attitude towards bisexuals in the media, is they wanted to be portrayed as committed people in long term relationships with a interest in both genders, but not as people that had a open relationship ( cos that was too slutty / swingerish ) as people that dealt positively with hiv / std ( cos it makes us look like we are diseased ) as positive, contributing members of society and employment ( cos that did not reflect the fact we like both genders ) etc etc...

the other thing that they talked about on the show is how so many bisexuals are not interested in the political / social arena and arguing over who was right or wrong... what mattered to them, was their partner/s, their marriage / relationships, jobs / employment, families..... and how with the introduction of the civil union law in NZ, there was nothing for the bisexual community to fight for.... there have been two other members of NZ in this site, that have also shared my understanding that the bisexual community in NZ is * dying * cos they no longer support their support groups / night clubs etc, with the result of many of them closing and only a few gay oriented clubs and bars remaining open...

I can not help but wonder if a lot of the bisexuals are only interested in sex and sexual activities without none of the social / political interaction, a bit like how some bisexuals only want the sex but none of the talking and emotional stuff...... so I would hazard a quess that you are right about the bisexuality as a personal freedom and not something that is under thread by heterosexuality or laws ( in the US as NZ LGBT are protected and have more rights than most of the US LGBT )

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

I'm no stranger to hard living Dark and I certainly don't have the Pollyannaish mindset you referred to. And I have experienced the sometimes unfairness of life very deeply.It just appears to me that, for some, labeling someone as a ' hater ' has become too quick & habitual, like playing the race card, a smokescreen which invariably dissipates & loses its effectiveness. Becoming occasionally abrasive and angrily rebuking someone is not evidence of hatred. And as far as "implied', I got the impression the newcomers ( infiltrators? ) were being blamed for the site's perceived deterioration and contamination with "hate." Personally, I think the current site is an improved one. People are inherently resistant to change, even if it's for the better. Being a pacifist, I can understand your problem with hostility. But that is also inherent in human nature. I like to think of myself as a ' peaceful warrior .' I think we've gone down this road before. Maybe this is relevant, maybe not....I stumbled upon a very simple yet profound quote by one of our great leaders, Abraham Lincoln...." Whatever you are, be a good one.":)

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I have never read Pollyanna, Pepper... nor have I seen the film or any adaptation of it, save for a few clips over the years on telly.. it isn't that well known here and so not widely read... so I had to look up what u meant.. I am naturally an optimistic person, and always prefer to think the best of people, but this is difficult sometimes.

Structurally and presentationally the site is better than it was.. and in technology and facility.. it isn't much in understanding.. the current malaise of which I lament did not begin with recent newcomers, but long before they/it/he/she began kicking off, but that malaise has been increasingly been shown to breed less understanding and compassion for others as people in forums.. this began to be reflected in chat also, although how true this remains, I am unable to say... angrily rebuking others is not a sign if hate I agree, but complete contempt for, misrepresenting deliberately the views of, personally and aggressively attacking with considerable venom and hunting down to humiliate others is hardly a sign of love... this has increasingly been a feature of forums.. it is not all, or even most members by a long way, but a few who care not one jot for the feelings or opinions of others except to spew bile.. repeatedly what appear to be the same person/people are banned and return in new guises, appear to have multi accounts and continue to say the same thing.. it becomes wearing, and it is detrimental to any kind of proper discussion and debate..

I am no angel in debate Pepper, and am incredibly gobby, but I do try to be fair as far as I am able.. and I don't stalk.. I do get angry and I do rebuke, and sometimes deserve rebuke myself.. but I don't hate people in the least.. just the ideas they hold and what they say.. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but there are those on site who, for purposes of their own, and few in number, yet extremely vocal, do spout hate for others...I know the difference between being angry and handing out rebuke, and spewing hysterical bile. However flawed I am and for all my mistakes, I do try, however pathetically, to be what ole Abe wanted us to be... it's a pity not all can follow his advice...

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

I have never read Pollyanna, Pepper... nor have I seen the film or any adaptation of it, save for a few clips over the years on telly.. it isn't that well known here and so not widely read... so I had to look up what u meant.. I am naturally an optimistic person, and always prefer to think the best of people, but this is difficult sometimes.

Structurally and presentationally the site is better than it was.. and in technology and facility.. it isn't much in understanding.. the current malaise of which I lament did not begin with recent newcomers, but long before they/it/he/she began kicking off, but that malaise has been increasingly been shown to breed less understanding and compassion for others as people in forums.. this began to be reflected in chat also, although how true this remains, I am unable to say... angrily rebuking others is not a sign if hate I agree, but complete contempt for, misrepresenting deliberately the views of, personally and aggressively attacking with considerable venom and hunting down to humiliate others is hardly a sign of love... this has increasingly been a feature of forums.. it is not all, or even most members by a long way, but a few who care not one jot for the feelings or opinions of others except to spew bile.. repeatedly what appear to be the same person/people are banned and return in new guises, appear to have multi accounts and continue to say the same thing.. it becomes wearing, and it is detrimental to any kind of proper discussion and debate..

I am no angel in debate Pepper, and am incredibly gobby, but I do try to be fair as far as I am able.. and I don't stalk.. I do get angry and I do rebuke, and sometimes deserve rebuke myself.. but I don't hate people in the least.. just the ideas they hold and what they say.. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but there are those on site who, for purposes of their own, and few in number, yet extremely vocal, do spout hate for others...I know the difference between being angry and handing out rebuke, and spewing hysterical bile. However flawed I am and for all my mistakes, I do try, however pathetically, to be what ole Abe wanted us to be... it's a pity not all can follow his advice...

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You're amusing,Dark. The expression Pollyannaish basically means looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, an unrealistic perspective. It was in response to your comment about people expecting to "tootle" through life without stress. No need to apologize for disagreeing with me. You're right. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I also agree with what Aeon once said, that most of the conflicts here seem to arise out of misinterpreting someone's comments. You're also right about your claims regarding yourself. In following your posts, I have seen a consistent humane intelligence & wisdom about you & I have grown to genuinely like & respect you ( don't misinterpret; I'm not " fancying" you;) Not long ago, I read an editorial by a local doctor who happens to be an atheist. I found his argument so compelling & thought-provoking, I shared it with a pastor friend of mine. See, I can be objective.:)

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

You're amusing,Dark. The expression Pollyannaish basically means looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, an unrealistic perspective. It was in response to your comment about people expecting to "tootle" through life without stress. No need to apologize for disagreeing with me. You're right. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I also agree with what Aeon once said, that most of the conflicts here seem to arise out of misinterpreting someone's comments. You're also right about your claims regarding yourself. In following your posts, I have seen a consistent humane intelligence & wisdom about you & I have grown to genuinely like & respect you ( don't misinterpret; I'm not " fancying" you;) Not long ago, I read an editorial by a local doctor who happens to be an atheist. I found his argument so compelling & thought-provoking, I shared it with a pastor friend of mine. See, I can be objective.:)

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*laffs.. fancying me wouldn't do u much good Pepper... and the thought never entered my head for a second... all we can do pepper is to say out bit, as best we can, and hope people listen... if we convince then fine, we have achieved something... if not we have tried our best and that is what matters.. people will always disagree... that's the nature of our kind.. it stretches us and makes us continue our search for knowledge and to be better.. human beings always have to prove something.. and prove others wrong.. nothing wrong in that at all.. but there is a way to do that and not to... I much prefer to argue as fairly as I am able and as honestly, and to keep the personal out of it if I can... it is nicer to be nice and I find easier than not to be... I just wish some others could feel the same way... the world would be a far more pleasant place if that was so...

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

No condescension was meant. I am genuinely impressed you stepped outside the perceptions which conceived themselves on the forum. And yes, I can admit some of the perceptions were bore of inability to see you beyond my own ignorance. You stepped beyond that in the comments here, disproving a lot of negative perceptions I had of you. Thank you for being able to do that, and doing it.

Despite some disagreeing opinions, I would hope we could be friends. Guess that means you would be the friend to which I refer and have a high opinion of. I felt you were capable of revealing this level of understanding some time ago. You saw me misunderstanding you, chose to dump flack on me instead of revealing it. Granted, if I were perhaps in your shoes, I may have done the same. In fact, I know I have been cause of a lot of negativity. Some came from seeing you not able to admit understanding, and if you did and I missed it, then we can both laugh at the cosmos.

Yes my closing was sarcasm meant as friendly levity and jest. Friends do that from what I hear from people with friends. They joke around. I have no such stickers to dole out labeling haters, nor would I likely attend a symposium, monthly or otherwise. I'm trying to state a serious thing in a funny way. Probably no good at it as everything comes out/across wrong, argumentative. But I'm not trying to attack or cause a stir here. I'm genuinely making an effort to embrace merriment, friendship.

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I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me. Sarcasm is one of those difficult-to gauge responses at times, especially in this medium of expression. It can be vicious & attacking or playful, joking. The Bible says, " Blessed are the peacemakers." So be it.:)

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me.

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Thought I quoted it earlier in thread. Ooops. *LOL*

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

I still really don't have a clue what you're referring to that made you change your opinions about me. Sarcasm is one of those difficult-to gauge responses at times, especially in this medium of expression. It can be vicious & attacking or playful, joking. The Bible says, " Blessed are the peacemakers." So be it.:)

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Mayb Voidie fances the rocks ofya ya daft ole bugger!! *laffs*. Maybe it's just cos ur nice.. wich u are really.. bit of a reactionary ole sod.. but far from irredeemable...;) Like u too btw if I may return a compliment u gave earlier...:bigrin:

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

Thought I quoted it earlier in thread. Ooops. *LOL*

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Ok, I backed up in the thread & I think I found what you meant, but " ...might be getting it after all?" I've got 20 years of hard-living experiences over you, buddy. Can you give me some credit for having attained some insight into people?

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Mayb Voidie fances the rocks ofya ya daft ole bugger!! *laffs*. Maybe it's just cos ur nice.. wich u are really.. bit of a reactionary ole sod.. but far from irredeemable...;) Like u too btw if I may return a compliment u gave earlier...:bigrin:

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" fances the rocks ofya?" Now I think I need a little help with that expression.:smilies15

Should be fancies... typo... soz.. make ne more sense yet???;) Betcha Voidie knows 'zactly wot I wos sayin.. tee hee

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Should be fancies... typo... soz.. make ne more sense yet???;) Betcha Voidie knows 'zactly wot I wos sayin.. tee hee

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Irony of ironies...my adversary fancying me & an atheist telling me I'm redeemable.:smilies15

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

Irony of ironies...my adversary fancying me & an atheist telling me I'm redeemable.:smilies15

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Complicated lot we human beings, hey, Pepper?:tongue:

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

I wish to point out that yes, prior to the site having changed format and possibly even servers, I did point out the rules to others on a few occasions. Please do not require me to grant specific dates or users whom received such interaction. Memory is quickly becoming an insipid bitch in regards to me.
Not sure Drew could provide such details either. If he has back ups, using grep would be a simple matter. However, me saying it would be simple and it being are subjective. I'm not versed enough in regex to use grep thoroughly myself. There are some whom visit here that are, Drew could ask a favor. My point being however, it is subjectively difficult to grant specifics. But I do recall pointing the rules out to others a few times.
It is not just you, and my post though framed upon yours was not intended as an attack of it, or you. I only desired to perhaps elucidate and articulate a point that the original poster posited several examples of hate. Your post supplied adequate framing basis whilst also seeming to require some response. In some regards your writing in such fashion is admirable. It is not an easy task to state a declarative as an interrogative. You seem apt to doing that well.
What the original poster presented as evidence of bi-phobia, is the same evidence I supply as hate. Fear often leads directly to hate. If you fear what is different, you may seek understanding it, or as is more readily the case, you destroy it. This fits nicely into your blog discussion of biases. It is only instinct to fear the different or unknown. Human beings are animals and grossly objects of animal instincts, such as fear. Fear creates biases in order to ensure survival, or avoiding the lose of something. In this case I think it is a lose of control.
Understand, prior to the internet bisexuality was far more invisible than written about already. With the advent of the internet, research, communication prospered. Bisexuality keeps gaining more awareness, being something which is discussed, pandered to/for/by the celebrities and media. And to think it took only a few good folks typing simple words to forge a new world. This new world is where Drew's site exists. It is a world that says yes bisexuality has been with us for aeons, no, bisexuality is not homosexuality or transgender. But, bisexuality accepts these, bisexuality even accepts heterosexuals.
Frankly, in what I see, there is a war between love and hate. Rather be a lover myself.
And I have rattled far too much here. Love accepts, hate destroys. Hopefully, we can all come to peace soon.

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It depends on how you define “hate.” I’ve had my daughters say they hate me because for various reasons (like; “no you can’t go out tonight”) I’ve also seen many examples of something mistaken for hate that is no more than frustration, misunderstanding or momentary anger. Then there are these “hate” crimes which from the start, are misnomers because it assumes hate is the over-riding factor when other possible motivations including the pathologically dysfunctional or emotional obsession, may be to blame. Certain actions can be seen as “hateful” but only euphemistically.

All I’m saying is that my definition of “hate” allows for the benefit of the doubt and I just do not see any “all-consuming” hate here. I try to exercise some discretion in what is fast becoming, a victim oriented society.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

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It depends on how you define “hate.” I’ve had my daughters say they hate me because for various reasons (like; “no you can’t go out tonight”) I’ve also seen many examples of something mistaken for hate that is no more than frustration, misunderstanding or momentary anger. Then there are these “hate” crimes which from the start, are misnomers because it assumes hate is the over-riding factor when other possible motivations including the pathologically dysfunctional or emotional obsession, may be to blame. Certain actions can be seen as “hateful” but only euphemistically.

All I’m saying is that my definition of “hate” allows for the benefit of the doubt and I just do not see any “all-consuming” hate here. I try to exercise some discretion in what is fast becoming, a victim oriented society.

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It is not so much the hate.. there are few members who really hate, but they exist, and their bile tells me so and occasionally, thankfully quite rarely, someone will post what is certainly and expression of "all consuming" hate..... it is the anger, contempt, bad manners, deliberate misrepresentation which some will insist on deploying.. attempts to ridicule and discredit the person, not the opinions held..and what seems to be the continued use of multi ID's by a very few to prove, not their point, but that they are not alone their view as if such stupidity does convince.. some will say anything to try and win an argument, and often in an attempt to humiliate another...the site has had trolls for a number of years, and there have been many discussions about the problem of trollism.. but the problem persists and we no longer discuss them as trolls, but that is what they are and they still abound... the atmosphere on site has degenerated and it is much less fun and certainly much less fair than once, debate is all too often poisoned by all of these failings I mention, and there is less respect for the opposing opinions than in what seems now the dim and distant past..

Like you, Joan, my way is to allow for the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes we allow that to go too far... I do not suffer from a "victim" mentality which is why I argue in the manner I do.. that there is unfairness in our societies is unquestioned and there is unfairness towards all groups of people, but we will not cure those unfairnesses by treating and arguing with others in a way which does nothing but create a bitter and poisoned atmosphere...

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

the interesting thing about the bisexual attitude towards bisexuals in the media, is they wanted to be portrayed as committed people in long term relationships with a interest in both genders, but not as people that had a open relationship ( cos that was too slutty / swingerish ) as people that dealt positively with hiv / std ( cos it makes us look like we are diseased ) as positive, contributing members of society and employment ( cos that did not reflect the fact we like both genders ) etc etc...

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Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

It is not so much the hate.. there are few members who really hate, but they exist, and their bile tells me so and occasionally, thankfully quite rarely, someone will post what is certainly and expression of "all consuming" hate..... it is the anger, contempt, bad manners, deliberate misrepresentation which some will insist on deploying.. attempts to ridicule and discredit the person, not the opinions held..and what seems to be the continued use of multi ID's by a very few to prove, not their point, but that they are not alone their view as if such stupidity does convince.. some will say anything to try and win an argument, and often in an attempt to humiliate another...the site has had trolls for a number of years, and there have been many discussions about the problem of trollism.. but the problem persists and we no longer discuss them as trolls, but that is what they are and they still abound... the atmosphere on site has degenerated and it is much less fun and certainly much less fair than once, debate is all too often poisoned by all of these failings I mention, and there is less respect for the opposing opinions than in what seems now the dim and distant past..

Like you, Joan, my way is to allow for the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes we allow that to go too far... I do not suffer from a "victim" mentality which is why I argue in the manner I do.. that there is unfairness in our societies is unquestioned and there is unfairness towards all groups of people, but we will not cure those unfairnesses by treating and arguing with others in a way which does nothing but create a bitter and poisoned atmosphere...

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I have no doubt hate exists here as it exists everywhere. I’m just not looking for it. Online, due to being anonymous, people feel free to engage in conduct that they might not otherwise do in public. That’s the main problem.

I’ve always been big on discussing, on and off line. Back when I came online, late 90’s, I was in high school and as naive as hell about the web. My first real active participation in online discourse was in the “Newsgroups” or “USENET.” 95% of the “rooms” or “groups” there have no rules, mods or owners. Not for the faint of heart, weenies, wimps, self-victims and whiners. It was a double whammy for me, a young female. No one to complain too. Rather than run, I learned how to take insults and dish them right back. Luckily, it’s not all like that but it still is pretty rough. Hate exists there…unbridled and seething with venom.

I used to be real active on “Shy-Bi”, a female only bisexual site. I saw no hate there but there are so many infernal cliques that are so diametrically polar (most having nothing to do with sexuality) that meaningful discussion about controversial or even topical subjects is worthless without involving groups snipping at each other. Worse, the mods there had their own clique and that was as annoying as hell. I’ll pass.

Every group, forum and site has it’s share of trolls, malcontents, shills, sock-puppets, astroturfers and sicko’s. I recognize and ignore them…not mechanically but mentally.

At least in the US, girl, civility and common courtesy has been in sharp decline. Political and religious ideology has encouraged rude and offensive behavior. Pundits such as Rush Limbaugh have become very wealthy that way. I take these people in stride and have more pity than anger at them.

Nice thing about the internet as opposed to real life; it has an “Off” switch.

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Originally Posted by Gearbox

Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol

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One realty is that bisexuals are not all the same. I agree with gear that norms for bisexuals much like other sexualities do not all fit into what LDD posts. Hopefully, thsoe who do meet his concept of what is agood bisexual or his norm are more open. I do not know if I would join a bi slut parade but I sure ashell would say YES some bisexuals are involved in casual sex ..just like gsys and hetros. Dsmn proud to accept that diversity in how bi people chose to live their life!

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Originally Posted by Gearbox

Any sexuality would have a cheek to claim that image for all. We all know it's BS.lol
It would be nice if we all just admitted to being Human, and not pretend that we conform to 'norms' to please others. It doesn't work for hetero's and it won't work for bi's & gays either. Not unless the 'norm' is your personal 'norm'.
There are no Slut Parades, or Open Relationship Parades. For the same reason as few Bi Parades IMO. We don't need permission or an crispy clean image.lol

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lol I agree with you there...lol.... being human is the norm.... and personally, as far as I can concerned, there is no sexuality * norm*.... just a image / list of *criteria * that people can use to define the sexuality of others and what * looks good * or how they expect others to live and think..... but its often what people will use in order to say who * fits the criteria * and who doesn't

I often wonder if a society like there is in the children of the earth books, is actually the way that society should be...... its set in the caveman days, but in the last book, jean auel wrote, there was a couple of gay males ( married ) that were openly accepted as part of the community and indeed one of the gay males was seen as * one who serves the mother * ( a type of healer / priest / wise person )... and all through the books, multiple partners / companionship and the right to marry more than one person, were seen as normal... one marriage was a female with two husbands....

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

I like that story's scenario LDD.

I have always considered ourselves far more than our sexuality, Duckie.. and in the last few years, even more so.. folk are folk and that's how I treat them and as an adult at least is how I have always treated them.. our sexuality is important, and we seek those of our own sexuality out for purpose of love, marriage, sex..life companionship.. but our sexuality is a small part of our whole being.. we are much more than, str8, or gay, or bi or trans..

I have on a number of occasions in forums stated that I dream of the day when we just are.. and are allowed to be, and where sexuality is no more thought of than the colour of our eyes or what our hobbies are.. being human and living life where we and others don't give a bugger about the sexuality of others.. I don't now.. they are who they are.. human beings.. the same as me but different with their own characteristics and personality...and so like, tenni, I too like the picture painted, and have all of my adult life and, if not always before, it was at a young age I began to think such things and work them through...

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

lol I agree with you there...lol.... being human is the norm.... and personally, as far as I can concerned, there is no sexuality * norm*.... just a image / list of *criteria * that people can use to define the sexuality of others and what * looks good * or how they expect others to live and think..... but its often what people will use in order to say who * fits the criteria * and who doesn't

I often wonder if a society like there is in the children of the earth books, is actually the way that society should be...... its set in the caveman days, but in the last book, jean auel wrote, there was a couple of gay males ( married ) that were openly accepted as part of the community and indeed one of the gay males was seen as * one who serves the mother * ( a type of healer / priest / wise person )... and all through the books, multiple partners / companionship and the right to marry more than one person, were seen as normal... one marriage was a female with two husbands....

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

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If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

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Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

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If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

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Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

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I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...:bigrin:

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...:bigrin:

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You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

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You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.

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Both are as valid as the other.. whether no better or worse, there I can take issue.. purely subjective judgement of course, but it is my judgement..;)

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

Ok, I backed up in the thread & I think I found what you meant, but " ...might be getting it after all?" I've got 20 years of hard-living experiences over you, buddy. Can you give me some credit for having attained some insight into people?

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*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

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Originally Posted by æonpax

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If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

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I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

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And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

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Originally Posted by elian

I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

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This post is simultaneously cryptic, provocative & coincidental to me. I'm hopefully planning to see the current sci-fi blockbuster Prometheus ( in 3D ),sometime this week. I read a very favorable review of the film which stated it raises challenging questions about the origins of human life. Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

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Void sighs, shakes his noggin and grins, sighs again and wanders on.

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

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Originally Posted by LDD

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

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That's probably right. You put any 2 Humans together and you get a command structure. Look at relationships!lol
And the higher the number, the more authoritarian we get. Can't have us all living in chaos can we? IMO if there's no threat of chaos, we create it, just so we can try to invoke order.
I see that with myself and my little girl often. I give her rules, and she points out when certain rules only take away her freedom/independance and have no real use other than that.:eek2: And I have to agree! But I still crave order so I feel 'useful'.lol

Bi people are going to keep being bi - no matter how much people want to discredit those feelings - thank goodness for that. It's a good lesson to learn - that you can love anyone ..

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting.:rolleyes: Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.:shades:

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My apologies for not replying directly, clearly earlier. A respite in
order to ensure a well thought response was needed. Frankly, I can see
even a well thought response would not matter much in this case. I'll
maintain reticence per regards you from now on. That may perhaps be
the best diplomatic course.

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Originally Posted by elian

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

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Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.

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Originally Posted by pepperjack

Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

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Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

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Seriously, Void, this is an " attempt at accommodating communication? " There are only two sentences in here that come close to that. Am I actually expected to interpret the bulk of this inane meandering as a reply to a simple question I posed? When you said you hoped we could become friends, I somehow (and I guess wrongly) assumed we could engage in some honest & mature dialogue. My response was not intended as a slap in the face & did not involve any malice. From my perspective, it was subjective, candid, civil, constructive criticism.

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Originally Posted by elian

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

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I didn't say it, I implied it and I guess , rather obviously. But then, as the saying goes..." If the shoe fits...." In response to your question at the end , no, but I have also worked as a welder and I can't grasp why an inability to smell would be a handicap; maybe even a blessing considering how some aromas in a fab/machine shop border on the pungent. Actually, I was thinking of other tenuous excuses he had posted here to justify that course of action (an inability to deal with workplace drama, for instance) when I made that post. I just don't consider throwing in the towel at 40 an honest effort. There are too many of us out here in the workforce that employ ferocious tenacity to forge and press our way through yet another day in spite of our afflictions, pain, fatigue, depression, physical handicap...whatever. I for one,don't even plan on retiring. I'm going to keep working until I drop (which just might happen, literally) and there are many other oldsters like me emerging daily. What's one of the currently popular idioms among guys of your generation? Oh, yeah...."MAN UP!"

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Originally Posted by void_dweller

Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.

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I don't hate you either Void. I don't even dislike you right now ( but I have at times, even intensely, which I know I've made obvious) but I'm having difficulty feeling respect for you on this issue. I can't help but feel you still have other options. What about the myriad opportunities for working online these days? You seem to have sufficient tech savvy to pursue that course of action.

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Originally Posted by elian

Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.

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I have among my books, one which compares the parallel teachings of Jesus & Buddha. There is a school of thought that theorizes that Jesus studied with Buddha during what is known historically as His( Jesus )missing years. One Buddhist I have personally known was Thai & came from generations of Buddhists. Anyway, after some time, I discovered she was very shallow & materialistic. This observation was confirmed to me by a very insightful person. Especially interesting & ironic to me is that I know Buddha was royalty, a prince who renounced his opulence to pursue a path of deprivation & spirituality. So much for the daily meditations she was always crowing about. Hypocrisy seems to be an inalienable human failing. Like the Muslim who stated, " I wish I had met your Christ before I met your Christian." You seemed to answer my question when stating "We are not apart from the divine and never were." This correlates with what I believe. One of my favorite scriptures in " that book" is..." Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"(Jeremiah 1:5 ). So, in addition to believing in an afterlife, I believe in a premortal life. I was fortunate today to get my wish & view Prometheus. The premise of how human life originated in the story was old news to me. The 3D visuals were spectacular at times. Today was the longest day of the year & it was that for me and it's not over yet.:2cents: