Remembrance Day

It doesn't matter, and anyone telling you anything less doesn't know what they are talking about.

You can say these wars are wrong. Perhaps you own stock in a company that makes bullets and going into war will raise your stock 100X full. You can shout "He is a tyrant who kills the innocent!" all the while ignoring the fact that 15,000+ civilians will die in the course of the war. Many more will die due to stress of the recession and depression. But it doesn’t matter…..

Why, because on the battlefield we fight for each other. The rest is propaganda. We will fight for each other in the eyes of tyranny because we are all united in a special way – being human. The head of Tyranny in Iraq was Sodom. And while some peoples motives for this war may have been driven by politics and greed, at the end of the day we fought for each other.

[QUOTE=firefighter38111;187319] Post 40


I think that there is some truth in what you write and soldiers do what they are told to do. Once in a conflict it is about survival. The difference in perspective is just that. It is interesting to read your thoughts on Canada as a pacifist country. We use to refer to it as Peace Keepers. That is perhaps different than pacifism but let's not debate in a thread intended to remember the sacrifices of those who served their country and did what they were told by their government. I don't know a pacifist country. All countries will defend themselves if invaded. That is different than being a military aggressor.

When I was a child, we were told that Remembrance Day was started to remember those who died in a belief that those deaths would bring peace. Conflicts should be resolved without violence so that soldiers do not have to die. In that sense Canada was a peace seeking country rather than a military aggressor. If that is pacifism so be it.


Canucks do not see ourselves as being protected by the US while you do. It seems US people, like yourself, like to see your country as a protector rather than a global dominator. I had written much about NORAD and NATO as far as Canada, Afghanistan and the US are concerned and your perception about our two countries. I've removed it because that is not the reason for the thread.

This thread is not about the politics though. It is about remembering those who served their country and died. Let's end this and respect the dead. Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations.
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Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations. [/B]
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Not without reservation Tenni me darlin'.. many do not deserve either honour or respect...

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Not without reservation Tenni me darlin'.. many do not deserve either honour or respect...

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Fran, hon, I love you but you really need to follow your own quote. There is absolutely no reason, no matter your own PERSONAL opinions about a cause, to sit on a forum and deliberately insult servicemen and women who gave all for a cause.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Fran, hon, I love you but you really need to follow your own quote. There is absolutely no reason, no matter your own PERSONAL opinions about a cause, to sit on a forum and deliberately insult servicemen and women who gave all for a cause.

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You may feel that way Darlin' darlin'.. but not all of the millions who died in the name of the cause are deserving of it... I can easily respect, for all my pacifism those who died in battle fighting for the things in which they believe.. but I make no apologies for not respecting or honouriing those who, with malice born from personal, idelogical or causal enmity, took the life of, and perpetrated all sorts of atrocities upon any who were unarmed.. that respect and honour spreads to those who surivived a conflict.. but dont ask me to respect and honour sericemean adn women who have comitted acts of thoughtless, evil and stupid brutality in the name for any reason.. do you respect and honour the murderers of My Lai or Bloody Sunday? The SS soldiers who butchered millions in WW2? The Soviet soldiers who raped hundreds of thousands of women in Berlin and other German cities in 1945, the British soldiers of bloody Sunday or who slaughtered so many unarmed and wonded Zulu warriors after the seige of Rorke's drift or strapped prisoners to a cannon after the mutiny in India , the Belgian who committed such appalling atrocities in the Congo, the Japanese who did such awful things in the name of Emperor, the Mongol or Roman who slaughtered so pitilessly in ages past.

No Darlin' darlin'.. u may support and honour such people.. I'm afraid I cannot...

Did you even read what the thread was about? Remembrance Day in Canada. Their way of honoring the dead from World War I. Do not bring anything else into it, Fran. And our honoring our Vets on the days Americans set aside for doing so in no way glorifies things like the My Lai massacre. You talk out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. People every day do things in the name of duty whether they be military or police or firemen or teachers. Sometimes we don't agree with some of the things they have to do in their quest to do their job but it doesn't make them any less a person who is deserving of the respect and tolerance you ask for in your sig. You want respect as a pacifist while looking down on those that served. Look to your own bloody history of Scotland and tell me who died for the freedom you enjoy right now.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Did you even read what the thread was about? Remembrance Day in Canada. Their way of honoring the dead from World War I. Do not bring anything else into it, Fran. And our honoring our Vets on the days Americans set aside for doing so in no way glorifies things like the My Lai massacre. You talk out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. People every day do things in the name of duty whether they be military or police or firemen or teachers. Somehose who times we don't agree with some of the things they have to do in their quest to do their job but it doesn't make them any less a person who is deserving of the respect and tolerance you ask for in your sig. You want respect as a pacifist while looking down on those that served. Look to your own bloody history of Scotland and tell me who died for the freedom you enjoy right now.

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Remembrance Day is not about remembering veterans..it is about remembering those who died in battle or honourably in the service of their country and the appalling cost of conflict.. I remember it in my own way.. and I remember it is an appalling waste of soldier and civilian alike... and I remember also that simply because one is a soldier, sailor or airman who died does not automatically qualify him or her for my respect or honour..many were, and are butchers and bastards.. yes Darlin' darlin'.. I read and understood the thread.. it is not who and what we are which qualifies us for honour and respect, but what we do and how we live our lives.. a war criminal is a war criminal.. whether or not he or she has or had on a uniform when he or she committed his or her crimes and simply obeyed orders does not alter that simple fact...

Although the thread started out mentioning Canada, the original allied forces from WW1 use the same occasion to remember their war dead. So it is Remembrance Day in many countries.

Understandably the commemoration has spread to include other conflicts, in part because the number of survivors from WW1 has almost vanished. The latter day conflicts cause controversy in what is revealed but the nevertheless they are there.

One set of arguments suggests that all war dead should be respected. Another set of arguments suggests that not all soldiers are worthy of that respect in as much as atrocities were commmitted in their activities. In this Darkeyes is right. There are some who are not worthy even from our side.

However, everyone seems to agree that war is associated with needless waste of life.

What we all hope that is being remembered are those nameless many on all sides who prayed to the same God and trustingly gave their lives in their country's cause without attached shame. This is epitomised in the tomb of the unknown warrior, housing a randomly selected unidentifiable body of a soldier from WW1 represeting the countless lost in equal anonymity.

Soldiers are glorified. Perhaps there should there be a Remembrance Day for the wasted innocent civilians of conflict? The USSR in WW2 would seem to be eligible for 1st place, unless the Chinese can say 'better'.

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Remembrance Day is not about remembering veterans..it is about remembering those who died in battle or honourably in the service of their country and the appalling cost of conflict.. I remember it in my own way.. and I remember it is an appalling waste of soldier and civilian alike... and I remember also that simply because one is a soldier, sailor or airman who died does not automatically qualify him or her for my respect or honour..many were, and are butchers and bastards.. yes Darlin' darlin'.. I read and understood the thread.. it is not who and what we are which qualifies us for honour and respect, but what we do and how we live our lives.. a war criminal is a war criminal.. whether or not he or she has or had on a uniform when he or she committed his or her crimes and simply obeyed orders does not alter that simple fact...

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I would like to clear something up about Canada's Remembrance Day.

Yes, like Britain and the US it started with Armitace Day honouring the sacrifices of WW1 soldiers. Like both the other countries, it expanded to include the sacrifices of soldiers in WW2 and the Korean War. It now includes and has for awhile all military who sacrifice their live in duty for their country. This included all military who died in the line of duty whether on a battle field or not. It included those who died while serving as Blue Barret Peace Keepers under the UN. This is where it seems to differ from the US. We honour those who died for Peace and trying to keep the peace between conflicting groups. This is where someone got the idea that Canada is a pacifist nation. We are very proud of serving the UN and humankind in this manner. We do include those veterans and they are proudly present during Remembrance Day honouring their fellow soldiers who died and those who are wounded in several different ways. They proudly wear their Blue Barret on Remembrance Day. It is a day of honouring and remembering those who served and sacrificed. It may just have a slightly different emphasis than the US Veteran's Day. I looked up Memorial Day and see it as remembering more the dead than veterans who survived? I may be wrong. In that sense we use November 11 in a slightly different way and may be closer to Britain in Remembrance Day services etc.?

The Day has gained much more significance with the deaths of so many in Afghanistan and the undeclared so called "war"(really propping up a rather corrupt regime lead by Karzai.) I'm not sure if it is true still but more Canadians have died in Afghanistan per capita and per numbers of military personnell in Afghanistan than any other country supposedly supporting "freedom".

I am wandering into a too political position. Let me say that darkeyes raises an interesting point as to whether a country should honour and remember those who died in less than "honourable" situations. Presently, we remember those who died in Afghanistan and whether it is a just cause is left away from the ceremonies. I suspect that is the same for Britain and the US.

What changed this year were two things. This is the first year that a WW1 veteran was not alive. He actually ended up living his life out in the US. The second thing that marred the day was the PM Harper announcing the extension of military staying in Afghanistan (to 2013) to "train" Afghan troops after a Parliamentary motion to remove all military by July 2011. It was wrong for him to bring that in so close to such a day of remembrance imo as well as others. The pressure did come from the US and if a US person doesn't know or believe it. That is their problem and perspective. I understand that the US has pressured other NATO countries to stay to train as well. Only Netherlands has completely removed their troops and the news is that the US is pressuring them to return. (whether this gets into US media or not)

So, Canada definitely honours and remembers all who have died in military service to our country and not just WW1.

Most people here still call it Armistice Day, Tenni, although some like me prefer Remembrance because it is about much more than the fallen of one war which ended over 90 years ago. The last British suvivor who fought in WWI died earlier this year and it has long since been expanded to refer to all of Britains dead (and maimed) in conflicts subsequent to that awful quagmire of death.

May I just correct you a little on what I mean by not being able to respect or honour all who died. Many SS died bravely fighting both the russians and western allied forces.. this does not mean I can accord to them honour necessarily.. for it is how they conducted themselves prior to that death which would settle the matter.. did they for instance slaughter innocent Russian or Ukrainian civilans, murder surrendered allied prisoners, were involved as camp guards and executioners in the death camps. Similiarly, it is known that British soldiers killed unarmed civilans and surrendered axis prisoners in both the European and Asian theatres of war, they raped axis women, and treated many civilians, men women and children, appallingly.. it is known that British soldiers tortured and executed enemy prisoners summarily... it is known that British soldiers fired upon their own citizens in Northern Ireland and lied afterward to protect their own skin.. it is known that RAF bomber crews killed untold thousands in Harris's terror raids on Germany by area bombing and laid whole cities to waste.. it is known that in Iraq, British soldiers tortured Iraqi civilians.. in Afganistan have been responsible for the deaths of innocent civilans and not always accidentally.. many of these died on active service and died bravely.. does their brave death excuse their crimes? I would argue not.. a war crime is a war crime... no matter on whose side the perpetrator.. and a war criminal is not in my view worthy of our respect, no matter the manner of his or her death..

darkeyes
Yes, in a sense our nationalism shows through on Remembrance Day. We (all nations) tend to honour without discrimination to individuals. The victors tend not to deal with those who did deeds that if on the opposing side might lead to charges. If we do however focus on those who have died in service to their country can we not honour the enemy's soldiers at this point in time? There are signs that the Allies aging soldiers gather with "some" of the Axis soldiers to remember..perhaps the futility of war as well as both fallen comrades.

Please dont misunderstand me, tenni.. on 11 November each year I remember the dead of all war and those of all nations who perished or had their ives and bodies ruined as a consequence.. it is not narrow nationalism on my part.. I also remember the ruination and slaughter of our environment and the slaughter of other species, both flora and fauna which war inflicts on the world.. this to some sounds silly I know, but whole ares of the world have been laid waste as a result of war, modern warfare particularly, and we ruin and pollute our world at our peril...