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Aeon, not everyone is an idiot, stop assuming they are and have no clue how to read a law and how to intepret things. As a matter of fact, I did read the entire law and I also followed the Supreme Court case and all the cases that are still pending. I am well aware of what the limits and expectations of this law are in regards to what it will do for ME. That's why I read the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
`Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
Neither you nor I are representative of the millions of other Americans whom are looking for information regarding the PPACA which is why there are a plethora of other academic and professional sites listing and explaining information on this law. Get off your high horse. I'm NOT talking about YOU. It's prudent and reasonable for any person to seek additional information and advice as is providing such sources of information.
You are the one on a high horse, sweetie, but then you are just young. Eventually, when you grow up, you'll learn that other people's worlds do not revolve around you and you will only deal with your own personal spectrum of issues. People have to actually make do the best they can. And most people are well aware of how to do things and find information, we don't need to google. My link, not only had the entire legal act as passed by Congress and legalized by the Supreme Court on it, it also had a detailed breakdown and other links to help people with what they can do now and what will be coming in the future. I don't like the law but I do know we need something here and unlike some people I don't just choose to bash someone because of a political agenda when it was damned sure the other side that came up with a model. I guess it's fine for a state but not for a nation when it's in the spotlight.Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
I got my alphabet soup mixed up - ACTA is a whole other law (duh) .. I am on page # 19 of 907.. boy, this is sure fun. I see the NRA got their language into the bill - "A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not require the disclosure or collection of any information relating to—
‘‘(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully-possessed
firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property
of an individual; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm
or ammunition by an individual."
nor can such information be stored in database. Kind of interesting that that's even IN there - I mean I wouldn't normally consider someone who lawfully possesses a weapon or ammunition to be a problem but for whatever reason somebody specifically wants to make sure that demographic not tracked.
Oh that's interesting.. it goes on to say that possession of a firearm or ammunition cannot influence your eligibility for status, special rates or enticements to quit owning a weapon or ammunition.
Hmm, there is also language in here that seems to say that insurance companies must show that revenue from premiums going more toward the cost of care than administrative costs and overhead - and that if they don't meet a specified state ratio that the insurance company must provide a certain rebate amount to the consumer. This must be designed to reduce the amount of "shill" companies that would exist in the insurance exchange just to bilk people out of their money.
Biguy,Quote:
Originally Posted by biguy71
It is nice when people only read one or two things that you have written and form an opinion about your entire personality.
If you truly think I do not try to help others, I think there are several people on here who would strongly disagree with you.
Ignoring people means you can't learn from them and that shows a closed mind. I disagree with a lot of people on politics. Am I "right-wing"? No. Am I conservative? You betcha. Financially. Militarily, Foreign policy wise, and many other ways. Market forces with PROPER controls are the ONLY way this country is not going to be brought to its knees by out of control spending and taxing.
I can disagree with many people politically as long as we can have an honest and open debate based on reason, logic, and intelligence. Does that mean I won't go sulk in a corner if I lose a point? Hell no it doesn't. For example, Joan was right about the 16,000 IRS agents. There are plans to hire additional agents and administrative staff to deal with Obamacare, but no numbers have been stated. The 16,500 figure was based on erroneous assumptions and erroneous math and was put out by some GOP muckity-muck on I think the house oversight committee back in March of 2011.
I reserve the iggy button only for those people who go off on hate filled diatribes or completely vicious personal attacks. You do as you see fit.
*chuckles*Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
I am not a card carrying NRA member. There are though, a few in my family. Allow me to try to offer an explanation of the thinking and mindset at work behind putting this into the new law. First, the NRA folks value the right to bear arms. They also value the right of privacy, security of their possessions.
Something one could easily foresee.
Government: "Get rid of your guns, we'll send in the Red Cross. Keep your guns and suffer without treatment."
Waco Types: "Pry our guns from our cold dead fingers."
Government: "Fine, won't take long for untreated colon cancer to kill you anyway."
And much as it may seem fanatical, have to side with the Waco types. I'll keep any guns lest the government need reminded of who the real bosses are. We're all dead at any rate, while we live, we live free. Sadly, living free now loses a lot when one considers it is an illusion.
`Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
I'm going to magnanimously shunt aside the rest of what you say (I see no utility in it for me to reply) as this particular part in your reply, I have bolded, caught my eye.
Once, in my own relative youth, I was complaining to a geriatric but very dear friend of mine about how some older people should not be driving. His reply was a pithy axiom;
"Stupid young people grow up to be stupid old people."
A hundred years ago, the experience of age gained a person the wisdom...to survive. The elders in any community were treated with reverence, not so much becuase they were wise in all things but becuase they were wise in knowing how to survive.
Now, the only thing age really means, aside from the historical experiences they wish to impart, is that they can afford to live longer and that is what this topic is all about...Affordable Health Care.
So, you must excuse me for being too casual about saying this but you haven't proved or convinced me of a damn thing. You are welcome to your opinions which no doubt play well to those of your ideology. But when it comes to health care, you are way off the mark. Many baby boomers are now finding out that all the money they struggled to save for retirement is going to be eaten up by medical costs. My generation is trying to do something about it.
I still favor a 'single payer' system and think Obamacare (PPACA) doesn't go near far enough to address the out-of-control health care costs. But it's a start.
:!::thumbd::banghead::disgust::soapbox::thumbu::bu lb::impleased:2cents::banghead::disgust::disgust:: !::thumbd::2cents:
lmao............my first reply to a thread on bisex.com........ from a simple mans perspective and one who has labored in a heavy industry for over 37 years....... if anyone thinks this so called healthcare program thinks if free or revenue neutral..... what fools we are!!! i'm so freaking tired of paying taxes for people to sit on their ass all day...... they get ebt cards for food, ebt cards for wic, wank and wonk..... not to mention, two years of unemployment, then only to go on to permanent disability....... i'm so tired of people whining their ass off for anything government can give them.. this has gone over the, top!!!! Cradle to grave government, nanny state, take care of 'poor little me', cause i dont want to get out of bed and find a job..... !!!! My apologies to u all, but, my wife works at the hospital where more babies are born than anywhere in America and trust me.............. the doctors there DO NOT WANT this!!!! So, forgive me for speaking my mind........but....... i've had enough of taking care of those who DONT WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEMSELVES!!!!
Your expression here bothered me a bit. I put off replying in order to consider how to reply appropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal48
First, let me ask you a few questions regarding that thirty-seven years in heavy industry. Is that labor a badge of authority? If so, whom granted the authority? Do you think one must somehow earn such authority by enduring misery, to just live? Who gave you such a belief if so? Do you think thirty-seven years outweighs thirty-five? And ultimately, does it really matter and to who?
Second I want to approach your obvious gift of reading minds. You seem to make it clear you can by suggesting people think this law is revenue neutral, whatever that may be. I think a lot of people are aware this law will require more taxation, of course this is only opinion. I do not claim to know what others think, only me.
Third, I want to address a frame of thought. We as Americans, and probably globally, are taught that labor incurs rewards. A slave wrote it as a parable many years ago, he was called Aesop. Not much has changed since his time. We still are enslaved by worry. We worry that we lose a home because we do not work enough. We worry that we cannot buy the newest vain attempt at packaging happiness if we do not toil enough. Here's a thoughtful question. Who is the slave master controlling us? Is the same one granting authority based on thirty-seven years of enduring pain, misery and doing as your told, not following your dreams?
We are also told that we can work hard and receive our dreams, a nice home, nice car, nice life and so on. And then you step back one day and see that this framing of thought has lied. It happened for me upon realizing society requires college degrees to get decent jobs. Sorry, I work to earn money, I don't pay employers money to allow me to work. And this is what getting a college degree seems in order to work seems like to me, paying money to have a job to earn money. See the vicious cycle, yet?
We are told our governments exist to provide for the common welfare of the people they govern. It is pretty clear they no longer do. Instead they keep pushing a broken capitalist framing of thought which says one must earn life. What did you personally do to be born? I don't recall having to do much of anything.
And I do not claim to be irresponsible. In fact I am responsible to varying degrees daily. But that discussion is about another framing of thought, values and definitions and how we each have our own. In summary, what you may consider common sense may not meet up my standards of common sense or vise versa. I will digress for now, have asked you some questions, await your responses. That's how conversation goes, or so I'm told.
I'll keep my money, my guns and my freedoms. You keep the change!
That is all well and good to be proud and take personal responsibility - until you're broke down, wheezing and can't afford shit for healthcare - if you don't have a spouse and you're on a fixed income that pays less and less what then? Freedom doesn't mean much without quality of life.
And what about the people who have never had..? I guess we can just dump them at the ER, and then when the hospital doesn't want them anymore they can drug them up and throw them in a cab...
Between this and PSU report that shows a whole HELL of a lot of *HIGHLY PAID* PSU employees, board members, social workers, psychologists, attorneys and public safety officers could have done more to protect children, but chose not to - what an insane fking world.
It's all about you, isn't it? That's a damn shame.
Even when you have a spouse and are fixed incomes it's insane, Elian. I think I posted on here once before about a conversation I overheard at the office to try and get some help with medical bills. A married couple going on almost 50 years together were basically told if they divorced they would qualify for aid :( Is it any wonder now that people are beginning to give up hope for anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
There has to be a balance between the two schools of thought. We certainly cannot afford to protect EVERYONE (without each person contributing something), but we also must be willing to devote resources to promote and protect the welfare of our community. It just makes me sad that everyone's first thought is CYA. If everyone goes around thinking, "That's someone else's job" and nobody is actually doing it then nothing gets done.
maybe we just need a few more lawyers and lawsuits in the medical industry, that'll fix it.... and i hardly think 46 millions americans are broke down and whizzing....... if that is the case maybe we should have government sponsered gym memberships, instead of government furnished cell phones.....
Elian,Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
You are right. Something has to be done. However the numbers claimed on both sides are bogus. Many people (especially younger people who have been very healthy all their life) choose to go without insurance and take a chance. They are rolling the dice so that they can get more money in their paycheck to save it or whatever. Then, when they get older and are more likely to need insurance, they will get it.
The COBRA laws were passed to deal with the gaps in coverage experienced when someone loses a job. They only reason those laws don't work is because someone in Congress forgot to use common sense and their brains when crafting the law. What I mean is, losing job = no income. No income = difficulty paying for things. So let's increase the cost of their medical coverage to make it even harder for people to buy the COBRA insurance. The cost for COBRA is outrageous, usually 2, 3, or 4 times what the person was paying as an employee of the company. Nobody can afford it. So, while they are technically uninsured, they are only uninsured until they find another job.
Another reason the numbers are skewed is because people may lose their medical coverage for part of the year, but may have it for most of the year. This could happen because of job change or not being able to pay the premiums for a month or two. While these people are technically uninsured, it depends when the poll people call to ask about coverage. If they call through most of the year, those people are covered, but if the pollsters call at a time when people are in a gap, they are uninsured and they skew the government numbers.
Yes, something needs to be done, but honestly, the country can't afford a huge monstrosity like obamacare. We are already 15 trillion dollars in debt (6 trillion of that added by President Obama through his stimulus spending which has done nothing). But there are things we can do without adding to the debt and defecit. Allow people to buy insurance across state lines would be one thing i can think of. The competition will lower prices for all. Torte reform to limit punitive damages. Actual damages should always be paid for in full, but punitive damage limitation will make it less attractive for people to file frivilous lawsuits. Those frivilous lawsuits add to all our healthcare costs in the insurance doctors and hospitals have to buy and in how they treat patients.
We need to do the common sense things we can right now and then worry about extensive frameworks when we can afford it.
Well, the interesting thing in my mind is that I have a friend, now retired who used to work for the insurance lobby and so I asked her one time what she thought. Her response was, "Oh, everyone knows single payer is the way to go" .. Kind of interesting response for someone whose paycheck gets paid out of the private insurance industry.
I guess I can understand rascal's frustration and the only issue I have with falcon's response is that yes, when you're on COBRA you at least have to pay the full cost of the policy, if not more. So working is the main way that people subsidize their insurance, but what happens when you're too old to work? ..and a combination of both statements is the problem I have with leaving healthcare totally up to private industry. The fact that they control the care, they control what they will pay and medical providers charging 500% more than the service is actually worth because they want to max out the benefit they get from the insurance plan.
For ONE test my 80 year old neighbor was billed $70K..(I think it was an EKG) there's no way in hell she'd ever be able to pay that, but that's what they charge so that they can get the maximum reimbursement from any plan. Of course she immediately went to the hospital billing dept and told them she was going to send them what she could afford per month - which wasn't anywhere NEAR $70K.. Surprise me that she didn't have a heart attack RIGHT THERE looking at the damn bill. I think the services doctors and facilities provide are useful, but whatever happened to country docs that used to barter for stuff? Big world eh? A lot more complicated than it used to be I suppose.
$70K for an EKG? That's not possible.
I was in the hospital for a week and had an emergency appendectomy along with a battery of tests (they and i had no idea why i was sick when i went in. All I know is I was bleeding profusely from places that one should not bleed.). They estimate I lost almost 3 pints of blood before I went in to the hospital. I was on IV for that week, replacing the lost blood and fluids, and pain killer (demorol) after the surgery. The whole bill was $50k. This happened 2 or 3 years ago.
If they did bill her that amount, it has to be a mistake. Maybe someone typed an extra 0 and didn't check their work. She needs to go the hospital or wherever she had the test and raise holy hell until someone figures out where the mistake was.
As for your concern about "What happens when you are too old to work?", it's called medicare. That's what it was invented for.
People tend to get the wrong impression that people who are against Obamacare think the system is fine the way it is and needs no fixing. That is not what I am saying. There are some serious issues in health care today, but we have the best medical system in the world. Try going to the Philippines and seeing what kind of care you get. In many countries around the world, risky medicines are allowed to get through the approval process, because someone was paid off. People sell fake medicines cheap, because they know even if they get caught, the right bribe here or there will take care of the matter, if they are even penalized at all.
The point is, Obamacare is not about healthcare. It is about control. The government telling you that you MUST buy an approved health plan or they will "tax" you. Investor's Business Daily did an examination of Obamacare. They found there were 20 new taxes implemented by Obamacare, disguised as fees or penalties. Why, if the law is about improving healthcare and insuring more people, are these taxes in this bill? And the biggest thing of all is if this law is so fantastic why were 1231 waivers granted to companies and unions and why did congress exempt itself from this law? If this law is so great and is going to save so much, shouldn't everyone take advantage of those savings?
I don't want anyone telling me what I HAVE TO buy or herding me into a government run system. Does anyone seriously believe the government will run this system competently and fairly? Just like they have done with Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid? If so I have some land in South Florida I would like to talk to you about. It gets a little wet from time to time but that's no big deal.
Exactly where does this "right" to long term healthcare come from? You have asked others to cite a source, so could you please share this one with us? When we we all have the "right" to government sponsored cell phones? Hey, I'm all in for the Obamacare gasoline program. After all don't we all have the "right" to travel? I think the hard working people that can afford to go on vacation should all have to chip in and finance vacations for all of the rest of us. Can I paraphrase your earlier statement? Many are abandoned in mid vacation because they are unable to afford it or they are unable to afford their regular bills once vacation is completed. Does that even make sense? Well, to some of you kool-aid drinkers, I bet it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
Sorry folks, someone else mentioned mentioned how everyone had a CYA attitude and weren't willing to help the less fortunate. The reason for that is there are ,more and more "less fortunate" and fewer and fewer people able to help. I'm sorry but I have worked hard all my life and I have been at the same job for 38 years. I will retire at age 55 (which is REAL close) with an annual retirement income in excess of $60k PLUS the income from my own savings. I do not begrudge the people that get laid off, the people that have hit hard times, but I can show you entire families that haven't had a job in several generations. Why? Because the government supports them...with MY tax money. The more babies they make, the more the government pays them. Hey, why not pay for their birth control pills and rubbers. It would be LOT cheaper than supporting that child that is just a bigger paycheck as far as the parents are concerned. And now you want me to pay for them to all have health insurance? Go ask your parents how many of them had health insurance when they were young. And your grandparents. They saved their money and paid their own bills. Well I put my kids through school. I raised MY family and I have saved MY money. I have insured that me and mine were taken care of. Like my father did, when times got hard, I got an additional job and WORKED my way through it. I have never taken a dime in unemployment, neither did my father and I'd be willing to bet, neither will my son. And I have no intention of paying to support any of these lazy bastards that want to sit around and teach another generation of their family how to milk the system. If they aren't willing to support the system, they please tell me why the fuck should the system be "obligated" to support them?
And it will go down in the history books as one of the darkest moments in the history of this country. I'd be willing to bet, that when they look back, it will be recognized as what it truly is, a milestone in the road to ruin for this Nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
I do want to point out one thing though... the remarks regarding disability are incorrect. People who draw disability and yes I am one of them, have to qualify with work credits just as you would when you reach retirement age. I have worked my entire life until I got too sick to work and since I've been in the hospital more than I've been home the last few months I am not out just celebrating not having to work and getting paid. Every month I rob Peter to pay Paul and struggle to pay my bills while incurring new ones. I, too, have a problem with the baby factory welfare system but there has always been some sort of aid that was needed. Problems now is the economy and the loss of dual incomes for some families have forced people to seek assistance that never would have dreamed of asking for a thing. But when your kids need to eat, you do what you need to do.
So instead of everyone just bitching about the bill how about coming up with a solution that isn't politics inspired? I don't like the bill either but it is a start on trying to cut down the involvement of insurance companies in medical decisions that should be between a patient and the doctor. A treatment course should be decided on by what will be most effective with the least side effects instead of whatever the insurance will cover.
I have already proposed several ideas Duckie. The GOP in Congress have proposed other ideas. Some of which I feel will be good. Some will not be so good.
The point is neither side is even willing to consider the ideas of the other side. The reason? They like the system the way it is with the influence peddling and payouts. Reforming the system does not help those idiots get rich. How many congressmen go there fairly well off, but not disgustingly rich? What happens after they are there for 4 years? Suddenly they are very wealthy. Every stinkin one of the lobbyist groups pays these jerks off in the hopes that the ideas that group supports will be passed into law to further make money for the lobbyists. Doesn't matter if the lobbyists are wight-wing or left-wing. They all do it.
There are reforms that can be done right now that will not cost the government (the taxpayers) one thin dime. Those are the kinds of reforms we need. We can also do regulatory reform to make it better for doctors, hospitals, and clinics to do business. Not to reduce they safety, but to reduce the ridiculous paperwork burdens.
We need more reforms than those I have mentioned, but we cannot afford those other reforms. The government already borrows 40+ cents of every dollar it spends. We can't afford to spend more money we don't have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elian
As I had stated in an earlier post, health care was NOT a problem until the early 80’s when Reagan foolishly went on a deregulation craze. Health care costs were regulated and under control. Those poor and indigent, were covered at minimal or no cost to the tax payers. It was a win-win situation. But no longer.
When it comes to cost, many whine about it. The upfront cost will run to about a trillion dollars. However, those same people whom complain about that, say nothing about the 4 to 5 trillion dollars (and loss of human life) these senseless and immoral wars we are getting into…which benefit only the corporations.
This is a moral issue. A study by Harvard Medical School and the Cambridge Health Alliance, which will appear in the December issue of the American Journal of Public Health, found that 45,000 deaths a year are associated with a lack of health insurance. In addition, it found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40% higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts, up from 25% in 1993, according to a Harvard Web site. - http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/stor...alth-coverage/ - That number is increasing.
Then there are the religious objections. Many hide behind the tax excuse but their real objection is that the PPACA covers abortions and contraceptives. So they are willing to chuck the whole thing just because of that. Hypocrisy at it’s gutter best. Stop abortions yet not a word about those already born who have died for lack of insurance.
Lastly, who says it’s the employers duty to provide health insurance anyways? There is no law that says they must. This is why many companies are no longer offering health insurance and why this is fast becoming a major national problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog62
The old standby….I worked all my life and earned my keep. The hell with everyone else. How narrow minded and short-sighted…not to mention selfish, uninformed and condescending. Do you know how many other Americans lost all their life savings in 2008 because of the absolute greed of the Wall Street Bankers and investors? (http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFil...isis-final.pdf ) and (http://www.nber.org/bah/2010no3/w16407.html ) Tens of millions were affected and tens of thousands lost just about everything. If you came though this unscathed, it was due to only one thing; Luck.
Your next tired cliché, those on welfare. Before you go on repeating the myths and lies the right is so fond of spewing, do you have any actually statistics on the chronically unemployed? What are those percentages and what the “real” cost is?
You better stop living in the past…a past that never really exited anyways, except in the minds of those who want to believe it existed. This isn’t “Little House On The Prairie” where Doc will take a few chickens in lieu of cash payment. The world does not revolve or operate around you and your experiences. Perhaps you should check into a few facts first, such as; The History of Health Insurance - http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/t...ance.health.us or Health Care Reform and Social Movements in the United States - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447696/
As for the legal right to health care, no it is not specifically mentioned in the US Constitution but there are many things that do exist in the US. Just because it is not mentioned does not preclude its existence.
Those who do not have health insurance do ultimately receive care, of course - but often in hospital emergency rooms, where treatment is much more expensive than in a doctor's office. Our system is thus both callous and extravagant, costing much more than it should while delivering substandard results.
The World Health Organization gives the U.S. health system an overall ranking of 37th in the world, far below other Western democracies. The CIA World Factbook - hardly the work of a bunch of left-leaning liberals - reports that life expectancy in the United States is not just lower than in other industrialized countries but also lower than in Jordan and Bosnia.
Most working-age Americans who have health insurance obtained it through their employers. But this is a haphazard and inefficient delivery route that puts U.S. businesses at a disadvantage against foreign competitors, most of which shoulder no such burden. Tying health insurance to the workplace also distorts the labor market and discourages entrepreneurship by forcing some employees to stay where they are - even in dead-end jobs - rather than give up health insurance. The government needs to get involved in this, at the highest levels.
What will be going down in history as our darkest moment will be the rise of of the ultra conservative right and how their self righteous bile almost destroyed this great nation.
Joan,Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
Are you sure it was Reagan and not George Bush that destroyed everything? Seems to me over the last 3.5 years the favorite whipping post of the left is George Bush.
Employers offer health coverage for one reason and one reason only. Too attract the best workers. That is what free markets and competition do. They make companies compete for the best candidates. As a result, many times, the employer with the best package gets the best employees.
Couching this as a completely moral issue is ridiculous. There are so many factors that go into reform decisions. Is there a moral component? definitely. Everyone should have compassion for their fellow man and their fellow Americans. But in no way are these reform decisions only moral ones. Besides, Obamacare has nothing to do with compassion or healthcare. It is all about control. Dictating what we must do or dey will spank us bad widdle amewicans wif a nasty old tax, err I mean penalty, er i mean tax (Whenever Obama makes up his mind about what it is, let me know.).
I think you are reaching with the taxes vs. abortion idea. Seriously reaching. Honestly, that is the first time I have heard/seen anybody state that. Yes, a lot of religious conservatives object to the abortion and contraception mandates in the bill. I'm sorry. I know we will never agree on this, but the government has absolutely no business telling private, religious organizations what things have to be included in the health care they offer. Especially if what the government demands is completely repugnant to those religions and opposition to those demands is a major part of the beliefs of those religions (and it ain't just Catholics). Ever hear of separation of Church and state? A school can't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it has the word God in it. But that same government has no problem telling religions that they have to pay to support killing of babies or the prevention of creating them. Now THAT is Hypocrisy.
Senseless and Immoral wars? Really? Tell that to the 3,000 people who died in the twin towers. Oooopppssss. That's right, you can't. Tell that to most of their families and they would probably slap the taste out of your mouth. Or how about telling that to the soldiers who have gone over there to make it impossible for those murderous bastards to attack us again. And yes, in this case, I have the right to say it. If you didn't serve, I don't want to hear your pacifist BS. Go live in Switzerland. But don't dare insult those who died on 9/11 or those who serve.
45,000 deaths a year? I'd like to see what kind of examination of those numbers they did. How many of those are illegals who work in higher risk jobs like roofing or out in the blazing sun picking vegetables all day or other risky jobs illegals do? You want to keep paying for people who are breaking the law to be here? I don't. I'm bloody tired of it. And how many of those deaths are from younger people who have deliberately chosen not to pay for health insurance and get in a car wreck or have some other kind of accident. If you look at it, the article clearly says you had to participate in a survey to be counted in the study. How were participants chosen? Was it random? Or was there some kind of control group? Again, they may have not had health insurance when they died, but that depends on when they died, doesn't it? They could have had health insurance for 20 years and gotten laid off the month before. As a contract programmer, I work sometimes 6 months in a bad year. I have insurance when I am working, but when I am between contracts, I don't. So am I insured? Am I uninsured? I am between contracts right now. If I die today, would I be counted in the uninsured statistics? I am supposed to start a new job Monday. Will I be counted as insured?
Surveys and polls can be skewed any way you want based on how the study is done or how the question is asked. Look at how the Labor Department skews the unemployment numbers.
Falc, please do NOT send me anymore of your PM's. They are NOT needed, wanted, nor desired...aside from the fact that you are hardly a person that personifies even temperance on issues or commands universal respectQuote:
You should apologize - I think you owe Dog62 an apology. What you posted was pretty damned rude and personal. Attack the ideas, not the person.
The post stands as is.
`Quote:
Originally Posted by falcondfw
Your garrulous post is just one long OPINION, absent of any facts and full of your own myths and skewed perspective.
I have been systematically proving my case by use of studies and statistics. Your arguments are all ideologically bias.
You have again proved that you don't want to be informed and again proved your inability to be able to read anything that disagrees with your boxed in little world. Had you read any of the links I provided, you would not be asking such unintelligent question and throwing out academically researched reports becuase of some kind of false belief that everything is skewed.
You and your talking points always have a ring of falseness to them becuase you cannot prove them nor do you even attempt to. All you do is repeat the exact same thing, over, and over and over again in the hopes that sometime, uninitiated and wholly misinformed, will by into your schmeal.
Put up...or shut up.
Now just hang on a minute BITCH! Put that vile liberal mind back in it's box.Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
You want it this way, you got it.
One. I did not insult you or call you any names like garrulous or unintelligent. I talked on the ideas. It is you who cannot respond to someone without insults, which shows a lack of intelligence, thoughtfulness, and class.
Two. Systematically proving your point with government figures that everyone knows are skewed. Oh yeah. Right. That really makes your point. Anyone who believes government numbers carte blanche, shows just how either brainwashed or stupid they are. Which are you?
Three. If I did not visit your links, how would I have known that that government survey required people to voluntarily take part? Now who's the unintelligent and uninformed one? Who's liberal bias is showing when they ignore such an obvious fact that shows that I did read the survey.
My arguments are all ideologically based? Not by half. Does ideology play a part? DUH! As if it doesn't in your arguments? You are trying to persuade people that your philosophy is right. I am trying to show people that mine is right. Stop restating the obvious.
I don't want to be informed? So how is it that I was the one who gave you props that the 16,000 IRS agent number was wrong? I listen. I learn. I make mistakes. I apologize. I give credit where credit is due. You on the other hand give no one credit but yourself. It must really be nice to be so perfect. Everybody has to learn from you and your sources. I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the government lies about statistics all the time. As I have said before, look at the unemployment statistics. For another thing to look at, the initial cost of Obamacare, before they passed it was $900 billion over 10 years. A few months ago, the CBO came out and said "nope. we were wrong. The cost is $1.8 trillion." (If you need sources look it up on google. it was covered by every news reporting agency. But in case you are too lazy to look it up, here: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...day-obamacare/. ABC news is not exactly a conservative organization.). This was back in March. Quietly, a few days ago, this came out: http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156659...estimates-rise. You still believe numbers the government tells you? Then you (general you, not you specifically aeon) are dumber than a bag of hammers. So try reading those facts. You say I am the one closed minded and living in my own little box. Let's see if you have the cajones to read those links from those liberal organizations.
So. I have put up. Now F off with your rude behavior.
I don't prove all of my points, because I don't have the time all day to sit there and look up gotchas. I have a life to lead. I have proven several of my points in this and other postings. I'm sorry I don't meet your standard of having 5 sources to back up that "is" is actually a word.
oh. and PS. I PM'ed you because I did not think you wanted to get called out publicly, but following your instructions : You owe dog62 an apology. Your post was rude and personal, without him getting personal to you first. You just hate it when people disagree with you and you can't handle it when people think you are not perfect, hence your posts to dog and me. Grow up little girl the world doesn't revolve around you.
And just a hint, one of the main reasons my ex is now an ex is because she had an attitude just like yours. She thinks her s don't stink. But she has no problem sitting on her fat ass all day using the kids child support money to barely squeak from one month to the next, instead of getting off her ass and getting a job. It is attitudes like hers and yours that have started the decline of this nation.
P.P.S. You can respond if you want, but this is my last response TO YOU on this thread and probably on any other.
Was hospitalized for diverticulitis about five years ago. At the timeQuote:
I was on IV for that week, replacing the lost blood and fluids, and
pain killer (demorol) after the surgery. The whole bill was $50k. This
happened 2 or 3 years ago.
I was working forty plus hours a week, not paying much attention to
diet. On the itemized hospital bills two acetaminophen tablets cost
thirty dollars each, totaling seventy five together inclusive of
taxes. Those same tablets could be purchased at any department store,
drug store for about four dollars per hundred count.
Exactly, control it is.Quote:
The point is, Obamacare is not about healthcare. It is about control.
The government telling you that you MUST buy an approved health plan
or they will "tax" you.
Did you physically produce the money? Doesn't the Federal Reserve BankQuote:
I raised MY family and I have saved MY money. I have insured that me
and mine were taken care of. Like my father did, when times got hard,
I got an additional job and WORKED my way through it.
print most U.S. legal tender? Would that in effect make it not your
money, but the government's?
I am happy you have been able to provide for your family. Not all of
us granted that luxury. I have worked thirty five years as unskilled
labor in various fields. I have tried saving money and done so to a
degree at times, until the next unavoidable minor catastrophe depletes
that little egg.
I even volunteered to serve in the military, willing
to provide twenty years of service or more if desired. Unfortunately,
for whatever rationale the military rejected me.
Forget buying insurance when wages hardly provide enough to live on.
Yes, we have and do use some minor luxuries in life. There has to be
more than only survival. We use Netflix, at twenty dollars a month.
The Internet account here runs around thirty dollars and is divided
amongst three families, satellite television is another fifty shared
between us. So, I suppose one could argue me and wife spend around
forty to fifty dollars a month on luxuries.
I would also like to offer her parents something for monthly rent. A
single bedroom here runs around five hundred a month. Considering that
all three families here, her father a forty year military service
retiree will be happy with two hundred a month, we pitch in on food
and other costs as able. Yesterday, it took me ten minutes to get up
out of bed. This was due to likely arthritis, possibly brought on from
the working earlier in life.
Money is used as a means of control. It always has been, probably
always will be. An idea, a concept to continue a strategy of dividing
and conquering is what I believe it is. Just a shame few see the irony
of "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
I love this paragraph. The very thing you are whining about is the group of people that I specifically stated that I thought were deserving. What a typical response. You just bitch and whine about whatever , irregardless of what I actually said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
Are you totally illiterate or what? Did you read what I posted? Did you understand it? Why do I need stat when what I said was that I can actually show you these people. Surely the ones I know of are not THE ONLY ones doing it. There are loads of people cheating the system. What stats do you want? One group in every major city in this country is is too many. DUH
Now that is really funny. If it isn't specifically mention, then it does not exist. You can imagine it, you can dream it and you can wish for it, but the one thing you cannot do is create a "right" where one is not mentioned. You might ought to get you a copy of the constitution and the bill of rights and actually READ them. Don't rely on what they taught you in grade school, try actually reading them. If it isn't there, it isn't a "right". If your reply wasn't so pathetic, and an indicator of the problem we have in this country it would be funny. You have no "right" for the government to support you, give you a job, hold your hand when you are scared. Where do you get this idea? Never mind. You will never get it, until this country is TOTALLY bankrupt. You will continue to give away the farm in the name of"rights" and "decency" until every one is "equal"...except of course the truly rich. You will "share" everything until the workers quit working and become the welfare recipients. Eventually we will run out of workers, just like we have killed creativity and the desire to succeed. We want to do away with valedictorians in schools because we dont want to hurt the feelings of the rest of school. We don't keep score anymore in the younger sports teams because we don't want the losers to feel bad. What is the sense in trying hard to be the best, if there is no "best", there is just "mediocrocy".Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
And they need to come cook my dinner, and drive me to work and deliver my groceries. I have an itch on my left foot right now. Will they come fix that for me too. What else do you want someone to pay for you to have without you having to take responsibility for ? Do they need to bring you clothes and dress you each morning? Why does the government need to "get involved"? This country has survived for, oh gee a few hundred years without the government having to manage healthcare. What has changed that we now need the government to do this for us? We have turned into a country of wimps for one. Ask anyone over the age of 50 how many times, as a child, that their parents took them to an emergency room. Then go sit in an emergency room lobby and look at all the people that run their kids straight to the ER for a runny nose. The change is us. There is no major need for better health insurance, there is a major need for people to take responsibility for themselves and learn to raise their family the way our grandparents did, rather than whining for the government to do it for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by æonpax
You keep whining and praising the "share" with the less fortunate. You are truly naive. The more people like you that I see, the more I like my dogs.