Gaza Aid Convoy

the us is in the differcult situation fran that they do not want to lose their middle east strategic bases.....

honestly, I think that the us will continue to side step any issues with israel and gaza etc..... if they can avoid it.....

another thing I have found interesting.... is afghanistan is sitting on one of ( if not ) the words largest deposits of minerals and ores such as lithium ...... and that russia is sitting on the worlds largest oil and natural gas underground deposits.......

the fastest way to peace, is thru greed and desire..... not mutual understanding and compromise.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

I have asked you to provide links to sites and videos, that disapprove other videos and links as propaganda............ as you seem happy to claim its propaganda, yet I can not see any proof that it was created by israel as a means to hide anything..... in fact I am seeing the opposite... its protest / anti israel sites that are doing the propaganda.....

now I look forward to the sites that back up your stance and yes I will review them fully and research the info in them......

I also do find interesting, the sudden change in reactions, when its your questions not being answered, ..... but unlike you, I can provide a answer.... its in the bisexual.com forums between you and brotherjack and adam..... happy reading....

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Nowhere in any post I have ever made, have I lied. I don't lie, unless it is a white lie to protect or to stop a surprise from being spoiled. Why is it wrong to take someone to ask, if they are being rude or telling untruths. I know the truth of s situation and you have no idea how things have occurred. A line of type is not necessarily the truth and I have many lines of type where things are not as they seem. I have never lied, or tried to mislead anyone, with anything I have ever written, so you are very wrong with your one liner. very wrong. Give me four years of your time and I could set you right, but you won't do that, will you. You are wrong......no one has been vindicated...or proven to be a truth speaker. You have absolutely no idea. No idea at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

the us is in the differcult situation fran that they do not want to lose their middle east strategic bases.....

honestly, I think that the us will continue to side step any issues with israel and gaza etc..... if they can avoid it.....

another thing I have found interesting.... is afghanistan is sitting on one of ( if not ) the words largest deposits of minerals and ores such as lithium ...... and that russia is sitting on the worlds largest oil and natural gas underground deposits.......

the fastest way to peace, is thru greed and desire..... not mutual understanding and compromise.....

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Duckie hun.. every country is in a difficult situation.. the US certainly more than most.. but they cant side step a holocaust, and so Israel will never ever try.. I may dislike the Israeli state and its racist nature, I may loathe the Israeli government but the ordinary Israeli, save for a few of the more lunatic and orthodox elements, would no more stand for a palestinian holocaust than would the people of every other state..

..and what an awfully depressing view you take of achieving peace.. what you are actually saying is not that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace, but quite the opposite.. as has been proved throughout the annals of history.. and may yet prove to be the end of us all..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Duckie hun.. every country is in a difficult situation.. the US certainly more than most.. but they cant side step a holocaust, and so Israel will never ever try.. I may dislike the Israeli state and its racist nature, I may loathe the Israeli government but the ordinary Israeli, save for a few of the more lunatic and orthodox elements, would no more stand for a palestinian holocaust than would the people of every other state..

..and what an awfully depressing view you take of achieving peace.. what you are actually saying is not that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace, but quite the opposite.. as has been proved throughout the annals of history.. and may yet prove to be the end of us all..

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I am saying that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace..... if a country has something you desire, then you will make peace with them asap, cos invading them is not always possible.....

tho in the case of afghanistan I may make a exception..... lol.. and thats cos i find it interesting that they have us mineral and ore specialists there, currently surveying to prepare for mining....and we both know that there would not be peace between afghanistan and the us.....

but as a point of interest....
the us started serious talks with russia about disarmament after natural gas and oil was found under russia....

the us invades afghanistan, now they have surveyors and mining specialists in there at work.... didn't they have mining and surveying teams in kuwait and iran too

the us is side stepping in the middle east and they have middle east strategic bases there that they can not afford to lose.......

yet a large number of other countries barely get noticed by the us and indeed get left to suffer badly ......

no I am not accusing the us of anything, merely pointing out where my opinion has some tendrils

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

I am saying that greed and desire is the fastest way to peace..... if a country has something you desire, then you will make peace with them asap, cos invading them is not always possible.....

tho in the case of afghanistan I may make a exception..... lol.. and thats cos i find it interesting that they have us mineral and ore specialists there, currently surveying to prepare for mining....and we both know that there would not be peace between afghanistan and the us.....

but as a point of interest....
the us started serious talks with russia about disarmament after natural gas and oil was found under russia....

the us invades afghanistan, now they have surveyors and mining specialists in there at work.... didn't they have mining and surveying teams in kuwait and iran too

the us is side stepping in the middle east and they have middle east strategic bases there that they can not afford to lose.......

yet a large number of other countries barely get noticed by the us and indeed get left to suffer badly ......

no I am not accusing the us of anything, merely pointing out where my opinion has some tendrils

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Isnt that called trade Duckie? As far as I know the world has been doing that since humans first got a working brain.. Its when countries are reluctant to trade that we get into difficulty..either they dont want to part with what they have to a certain country, or they dont want to be reliant on the vagiaries of trade and want access to it without interruption (such as oil and ore).. then we get into real problems.. and nowadays the great powers can relatively easily invade anywhere.. success is another matter.. and making things worse than they are for themselves and everyone else.

..but in many ways your analysis holds up.. like anyone else's analyses, includin mine own, its imperfect but as good as any.. it iis also another reason the US will give Israel only so much slack... :)

I read an interesting analysis of the situation in the middle east and the various roles of countries within that territory. A lot of the following are quotes from his analysis. I have not bothered to put quote marks in though.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...on-turkey?bn=1


Three new regional players – Turkey, Iran and the oil- and gas-rich states of the Persian Gulf are the new key players. Iran and Turkey are not arab states and that plays a significant role according to the reporter analysist states.


One aspect that posters are not discussing with much detail is the role of Turkey. Turkey has and still is an ally of Israel. Israel killed Turkish citizens with this blockade. Turkey has the second largest military among NATO nations. The only NATO nation with a larger military is the USA. Turkey is a democracy. Turkey's economy has bounced back quicker than some other countries. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has identified Turkey as among the rising powers the U.S. wants to do business with.

The PM of Turkey presently sits on the UN Security Council and has been acting independently of its allies , the USA and Israel. Along with Brazil Turkey came up with a compromise*over the Iranian nuclear dilemma, only to be rejected by Washington, which opted for a fourth round of economic sanctions.

Turkey's PM , Erdogan, has stated “Peace and stability will not come to the region as long as the blockade of Gaza persists,” a blockade that Israel has just agreed to ease under international pressure. He has also tried to play the mediator between Israel and Syria; Israel and Hamas; Georgia and Russia; Iraq and Syria; Americans and the Iraqi insurgents; Lebanon and Syria, and the various factions within Lebanon; and the warring factions in Somalia as well as Yemen.

The domestic battle in Turkey is not between secularists and Islamists, as portrayed, but between democrats and autocrats.

"The birth of the new Turkey has been welcomed by Arabs. “Turkey has become an asset to the whole region and that constitutes a stabilizing factor in the Arab world,” Abdullah Khaliq Abdullah, professor of political science at the Emirates University, Dubai, told me. “Turkey is welcome in all Arab capitals, whereas Iran is in two or three.”

Israel can not afford to lose Turkey as an ally. Turkey may succeed in breaking this blockade of Gaza. It seems that Turkey is not about to abandon Gaza.

Go read history book. Read about the PLO and read about the Oslo peace process.

The PLO renounced violence, recognized Israel and got nothing in return. Is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Good question. Good question indeed. We could ask the British the same question. They did the EXACT same thing.

Those borders were lost as a result of a war Israel didn't start. They have no right to demand a return to those borders.

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So they have no rights at all. They should just sit there and continue being citizens of no country, with no right to vote, not right to travel, no right to dream about a bright future for their children.

I stated this before and I will state it again. There are exactly two choices for Israel that could work long term: 1. Keep every single inch of the land that they occupied which means they have to keep every single human living on those lands and give them equal rights
2. Accept a two state solution with two VIABLE states. Two equal states. Two peaceful neighbours.

Other than that, it will be apartheid, genocide, or whatever other inhumane solution there is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

But, this is not a struggle for human rights. This is a struggle of one nation who has a 'government' opposing it that has, AS IT'S STATED PURPOSE FOR BEING the eradication and elimination of the Jews. This is Israel fighting for its very survival.

IF, and I mean this, IF Palestine were to reject the idea that Israel should be destroyed, then I would agree with you 100%. That's a huge IF.

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And the Israeli governments purpose is controlling the Arab populating and subjugating them so that the Zionists can rule supreme??
I bet you've never even heard the Palestinian narrative other than what Israel states. I mean I don't blame you, they are weak, disorganized and do not have the same access to the world as Israel does. Why would their narrative reach you anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

As long as Palestine has, as it's stated purpose for existing, the eradication of Israel from existing, then yes, it's valid. How could it not be? That doesn't make palestinians less than human. It makes them extremely human. When humans make choices, they suffer consequences for those choices.

Now, there is the REALLY important point: Israel rejects this idea. Israel could rid itself of it's problems easily. It would take less than a week. And yet, rather than rid itself of it's enemy, they have suffered decades of missile attacks. THAT is the difference between Israel and Gaza. Israel actually could do the Palestinians what Hamas has vowed to do to Israel. And yet, it chooses not to.
Pasa

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Palestine? Where is that country? show it to me on the map?
Btw, Hamas is vowing to eliminate the state of Israel not the Jewish people. There is a huge difference there.

The PLO renounced violence? Really? Was this before, or after the rocket attacks after the Oslo accords? The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.

And then they decided to lynch two IDF members. And then they decided to send in a wave of suicide bombers. No. The PLO, nor the PLA, nor the Fata, nor the Hamas has ever been peaceful.

Yes, I've heard the Palestinian narrative. And before 1967, they had a case. Since 1967, they've become extremists. Extremists don't have a case. People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.

Vowing to eliminate the state of Israel is the same as vowing to eliminate the Jews. Ordinarily I'd say we were splitting hairs, but here I can't just chalk it up to that In fact, Not only Hamas, but Al Qaeda leader Al Zwahari stated on several occasions that Jihad against the Jews would not be limited to the region of "Palestine" (his word) but would be affected across the Globe. He has said, at least once, that no Jewish child anywhere is safe.

Pasa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canticle

Pasa
I think that we ALL comprehend, what you write and some of it isn't at all nice. in fact some of it is quite vicious.

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I'll note that you didn't actually address any of the content of my post. I'll take it that silence denotes agreement.

Pasa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

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I take it that to come to your final conclusion, you had to consult someone's profile and then go through every single post....posts upon threads..where another name, was also posted. If there is another way of finding posts, I am unaware of it, so please do not think me stupid, or in any manner, ignorant, if I do not know of such a search area.

You would have been looking at threads from late in 2007, until last year, and having read the majority of those posts, I have yet to understand how you are able to declare that a certain person has been vindicated and was telling the truth. What you suggest is ludicrous.

I would also point out, that if a person, is but a line of type, upon a screen, it is impossible for you to know, what that person is really like. Having corresponded with people for many years....since I was a child....(and many of those people are from New Zealand), I know fulwell, that for a friendship to be absolutely realistic, it has to become as three dimensional, as possible.....even if two people never meet.

Three dimensional....in my experience....means emails, letters, phone and web cam contact, parcels, sharing certain aspects of ones life, with other people.....the joy of birth, the sorrow of death, a house fire and the death of a dearly beloved, only son, jobs, interests, hopes and dreams, laughter and tears.

I have done all this with the people, who have been my correspondents. I have even discussed...in letters....religion and politics......my passion for art and history and I have never lied to anyone, or felt that I had been lied to, until recent times.

So your claim of truth and vindication (whatever you mean by that), is not so, not as it may read to you and yet, you appear to be taken in by the words you want to believe and only those. The only thing I regret, is that I wasted my time, trying to rescue and hold on to the most amazing thing which has ever happened to me, when all along, from one side, at least, it was all a game.

The words written with another name, I have no need to be ashamed of, because I am a truthful and honourable person, who has almost had her very spirit broken. You know nothing LDD and yet you think you know all. You don't!

And why have you done this? becasue I dared to air a view and state that something appeared liked Israeli propaganda? Because I dared to miss at least one of your questions, or maybe didn't understand what you were requesting? Because I dare to have an opinion and yet not produce evidence, to back up that opinion? Since when, did having an opinion, require the necessity to produce link upon link....not original work.....about a subject. I am also of the opinion that Diana, Princess of Wales was murdered, yet I have no proof and neither do the countless numbers of people, of the same opinion.

I post some links, about the meaning of the word ''jihad,'' and the word 'martyr,'' and some people aren't interested in knowing or looking...well..at least one. Why? because the text may not agree with what they think and believe? It's like Holy War........a term majicked up by the Crusaders.....not the Muslims they went off to fight and throw out of Jerusalem.

So I'll let you know now, I'm intelligent, not a racist, not anti-semitic, not a liar and when it comes to it,,,,,and not from this thread.....I don't have three personae, nor am I one of the ''morons, idiots, troublemakers''...or a ''troll.'' I'm just me...a person with views and I air them.....and I don't think one has to necessarily produce evidence to support ones views....or opinion. I don't request it of others. Neither have I used foul language, or insulted someone by mocking their name. Yet you have called me ''ranticle'' and Pasa ''cunticle.'' How very mature and how very intelligent.

Please don't come back to me and say that you did not post certain things. I know what people post and do not post. I am saying...in type what I think and know and think and know to be true and where my opinions are concerned, what I think and believe to be right or wrong.

Now back to the subject of the thread. Thank you for hijacking it and trying to make this into...well. I am not sure what you have been trying to do.....but heck...you've gone down, in my estimation. I used to have a great deal of respect for your posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

I'll note that you didn't actually address any of the content of my post. I'll take it that silence denotes agreement.

Pasa

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Pasa......I am not one to remain silent, or to run away. i answered your post my way.

Some might conclude that Israel, by her attacks, in recent years. upon different parts of the Middle East, has not shown restraint. When attacking Lebanon, not too long ago, world powers requested that the attacks stop. Did Israel take any notice? Israel does what Israel wants to do....when Israel sees fit and for as long as israel sees fit.

I don't know if Israel would like to totally annihalate the Palestinians. I would hope not. Both are semitic peoples and their common and ancient ancestry stems from the land they fight over.

There were Jews in the ''land flowing with milk and honey,'' long before the Biblical tales had them settling the land and Abraham is said to have set out from Ur in the Chaldees.......nowhere near where Jerusalem is.

It's human rights which are important and not who has won or lost a war. People should never have been displaced from their home land, so many years ago. It was their home for generations.......a refugee camp is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canticle

I take it that to come to your final conclusion, you had to consult someone's profile and then go through every single post....posts upon threads..where another name, was also posted. If there is another way of finding posts, I am unaware of it, so please do not think me stupid, or in any manner, ignorant, if I do not know of such a search area.

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actually I didn't go back and read anything...... cos I am not interested in reading all of your ranting...... I made a single remark about adam, and you are the one that has turned it into your own crusade, including pm'ing me seeking answers..... but as you say, you do not need to prove proof for your opinion.....

and again, I am not interested in the meaning of jihad and martyr.... that was between tenni and DD.....

all I am interested in, is the proof that what people are posting, is propaganda from the israelis ( your opinion )..... as you feel that even the info about other aid shipments, is not true.... yet aid agencies can provide numbers and fiqures......
if you can not provide proof, yet others can, then the facts outweight the opinion and make your opinion valueless.... hence I am asking you to add weight to your opinion and prove that your assumptions are more than wild unfounded accusations that other places and people are easily disproving

''actually I didn't go back and read anything......''

Then why did you make the comment?

''cos I am not interested in reading all of your ranting......''

I don't rant. I am awfully sorry, if you don't like the way I post, but that is my style and I do not intend altering this. If I was to do so, I would not be expressing me and my thoughts, beliefs and opinions.

''I made a single remark about adam, and you are the one that has turned it into your own crusade,''

You made a particular statement and you cannot justify this, for there is nothing to justify. You stated a certain person had been telling the truth and had been vindicated. When a person makes such a statement, it is usually because they know what they are talking about. In this area....you do not.

''including pm'ing me seeking answers.....''

I pmd you, so I could ask you the question in private and therefore not clutter Fran's thread, with an off topic subject. You did not reply. but instead, answered in public.

''but as you say, you do not need to prove proof for your opinion.....''

Correct, I do not have to provide proo,f for the opinions I hold.

''and again, I am not interested in the meaning of jihad and martyr.... that was between tenni and DD.....''

As this is a public forum, everyone is free to comment upon a post....voice an opinion....provide a link...phot...whatever.

I am surprised that other interpretations for the word ''jihad,'' do not interest you, as surely the more understanding we have, of what things can mean, when applied in different areas, is very important. With the getting of understnding.....we achieve a little more wisdom.

''all I am interested in, is the proof that what people are posting, is propaganda from the israelis ( your opinion ).....''

I have watched the same videos as others. to me the Israeli video releases seem very professionally put together and very false. That is my opinion. It does not require me to provide proof.

''as you feel that even the info about other aid shipments, is not true.... yet aid agencies can provide numbers and fiqures......''

Not so. I do not believe that I have said, that I disbelieve that some aid ships may carry arms. Obviously, this is going to happen, but it does not justify the Israeli's blockading Gaza for three years and bombing it to pieces with heavy artillery and missiles.

Perhaps you have misread, or misunderstood what I typed. I write in plain English, so I don't see how this is possible.

''if you can not provide proof, yet others can, then the facts outweight the opinion and make your opinion valueless....''

I saw no need to go hunting for video footage, as so many people had already done the same thing. I am not a person who spends my every waking minute, looking for things on YouTube.

Consider my opinion valuless, if you so wish. I seem to be unvalued, by quite a few people, who should have condidered me of value, so the opinion of someone I don't know, on the other side of the world, isn't going to make much difference.

''hence I am asking you to add weight to your opinion and prove that your assumptions are more than wild unfounded accusations that other places and people are easily disproving''

Please list what I have stated, that is either a wild accusation or an assumption and please list the names of those who have been disproving these things.

I am not sure, how I am not conveying myself clear enuf for somebody as intelligent as you....

I do not have to justify or clarify any stance..... the same approach you use, but apparently I am not allowed to......

as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....

I was clearly referring to remarks about how the videos were propaganda... YET aid agencies and news sites have proven that aid shipments are going thru ashdod port to gaza.... its not propaganda, its bloody fact.......
israel is not denying the boarding of ships, they are actually showing they did, thats not propaganda, thats fact
etc etc etc...... propaganda is a twisting of facts...... israel is not denying anything at all.......
you call it propaganda, the rest of the world calls it truth...... cos it actually happened.....

now I am well aware that you do not provide any support for your opinions... that is why I tend to be amused at your requests for others to provide statements and proof of their opinions.....

a list of names ???

israel
israel
israel
israel
israel
and israel... plus most of the other posters in this thread.....
by way of sites and video links that can be viewed and reviewed by any person..... sites and videos that clearly show that israel is sticking to the same story, they boarded ships, shot and killed 9 people......

other groups are the ones saying that israel confiscated all the media footage ( so what are we seeing again ) that israel inflicted excessive and undue force in restraining protestors ( 17 hours then released, you can be held longer in a uk police station ) etc etc etc....

so like I have said... where is the propaganda, cos its not coming from israel.... they are not denying what happened.... nor are they saying things that do not match up with what we are saying either......

now I will say it again... you claim its propaganda, I can not find independant proof of propaganda...... so I asked you for any proof, in case I can not find it.... and you can not provide any....

hence your opinion that others are believing the israeli propaganda is unproven, yet your statements indicate that you are supporting a group of people with conflicting stories, AKA the protestors....

''I am not sure, how I am not conveying myself clear enuf for somebody as intelligent as you....''

Obviously not!!!!

''I do not have to justify or clarify any stance..... the same approach you use, but apparently I am not allowed to......''

Ohhhhhh....clev..er!! I could say that you knew, that mentioning a certain person would upset me so much, that I sobbed my heart out, for hours....but I won't......because I am not like that and I am not going to flame you personally......for I have this feeling, that is maybe what you would like. Instead, I will conclude that because you don't know the history of my friendship with a certain person, you would not be aware, of how upset I would get.

''as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....''

There was no video...it was text and if you don't read the links other people post...what is the point of this whole exercise?

''I was clearly referring to remarks about how the videos were propaganda... YET aid agencies and news sites have proven that aid shipments are going thru ashdod port to gaza.... its not propaganda, its bloody fact.......
israel is not denying the boarding of ships, they are actually showing they did, thats not propaganda, thats fact
etc etc etc...... propaganda is a twisting of facts...... israel is not denying anything at all.......
you call it propaganda, the rest of the world calls it truth...... cos it actually happened.....''

Back and forth we go. Propaganda can be subtle. The twisting of words...or the way a video is edited....even down to the kind of voice over....can put something over, to those watching it, in a way that can work in favour of one side or another....and I don't care which faction may be involved.

''now I am well aware that you do not provide any support for your opinions... that is why I tend to be amused at your requests for others to provide statements and proof of their opinions.....''

You didn't have to make this something personal and introduce the name of a certain person and then declare them truthful and vindicated. My posts have not been like that. It was cruel and unnecessary..

''a list of names ???''

Yep!!

''israel
israel
israel
israel
israel
and israel''

That's a country....not the people on the thread.

''... plus most of the other posters in this thread.....''

So most of the people have posted video links that exonerate Israel.....really?

''by way of sites and video links that can be viewed and reviewed by any person..... sites and videos that clearly show that israel is sticking to the same story, they boarded ships, shot and killed 9 people......''

Well....they will stick to there version of the story!

''other groups are the ones saying that israel confiscated all the media footage ( so what are we seeing again ) that israel inflicted excessive and undue force in restraining protestors ( 17 hours then released, you can be held longer in a uk police station ) etc etc etc....''

I am sure some force, probably was over the top..........dead bodies tell that story.

''so like I have said... where is the propaganda, cos its not coming from israel.... they are not denying what happened.... nor are they saying things that do not match up with what we are saying either......''

Propaganda does not have to be a denial, of an event happening. It is how that propaganda interprets, what happened.....it's version of events.

''now I will say it again... you claim its propaganda, I can not find independant proof of propaganda...... so I asked you for any proof, in case I can not find it.... and you can not provide any....''

Well....that one video, may not have looked like propaganda to you,,,,but it did to me.

''hence your opinion that others are believing the israeli propaganda is unproven, yet your statements indicate that you are supporting a group of people with conflicting stories, AKA the protestors....''

That makes absolutely no sense.

the vid you watched but is not a video according to you

the bloody video is in english, plus text, the person spoke in english....and clearly said they wanted to be a martyr twice

step one, turn the sound on your computer....
step two, turn brain on
step three, stop ranting
step four, watch the non existent video that you claim is propaganda, not a video and only text
step 5 explain how you watched a video, listened to a video, argued the meaning of the words in the video.... yet now claim there is no video only text......

DD, myself and tenni and you and I believe a few others all read the text, heard the remarks by the person and understood it was said in english, it had subtitles in english and its a bloody video

I posted the link to the video, you viewed the video, you argued the meanings of jihad and martyr with me, and now you say there was no video ????? only text ????..

as for you and adam and your history ??? don't care, not interested, nothing to do with me, can not give a shit, do not want to hear about it, never mentioned your relationship with adam, have no interest in your personal life etc etc.... take your pick....

I made one statement about adam, nothing about you or your personal life..... you are the one with the issue over that statement and you need to get over it..... your relationship and personal life is none of my business and nor do I want to know about it at all.......

now there is a reason why israel will stick to their story about shooting 9 protestors..... and that reason would be cos they shot nine protestors..... they are not denying it at all..... they have never denied it..... what israel has said, is consistent with the videos they released and what protestors have said...
the israelis boarded the ship, were attacked and they opened fired on the protestors.......

now some force was over the top.... yes.... including throwing a person over the side of the deck of a boat, a action that could kill a person..... done by the protestors... that would be a active act of intentional and hostile resistance.....and in neutral country, a act of attempted murder.... add to the fact that the protestors were waiting for the israelis to board the boat ( the protestors own videos ).. you have a case for premeditated intent......

the overwhelming odds were in the favour of the protestors.... 700 to 45..... how many of the protestors were not offering resistance, may never been known..... by anybody......

but again, the israelis have not denied anything, videos from both sides support israels side of things and prove that the aid mission was not just a aid mission, as aid workers and missionaries are generally pacifists, they are there to aid and assist people, not try and kill people......

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Originally Posted by tenni

I read an interesting analysis of the situation in the middle east and the various roles of countries within that territory. A lot of the following are quotes from his analysis. I have not bothered to put quote marks in though.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...on-turkey?bn=1


Three new regional players – Turkey, Iran and the oil- and gas-rich states of the Persian Gulf are the new key players. Iran and Turkey are not arab states and that plays a significant role according to the reporter analysist states.


One aspect that posters are not discussing with much detail is the role of Turkey. Turkey has and still is an ally of Israel. Israel killed Turkish citizens with this blockade. Turkey has the second largest military among NATO nations. The only NATO nation with a larger military is the USA. Turkey is a democracy. Turkey's economy has bounced back quicker than some other countries. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has identified Turkey as among the rising powers the U.S. wants to do business with.

The PM of Turkey presently sits on the UN Security Council and has been acting independently of its allies , the USA and Israel. Along with Brazil Turkey came up with a compromise*over the Iranian nuclear dilemma, only to be rejected by Washington, which opted for a fourth round of economic sanctions.

Turkey's PM , Erdogan, has stated “Peace and stability will not come to the region as long as the blockade of Gaza persists,” a blockade that Israel has just agreed to ease under international pressure. He has also tried to play the mediator between Israel and Syria; Israel and Hamas; Georgia and Russia; Iraq and Syria; Americans and the Iraqi insurgents; Lebanon and Syria, and the various factions within Lebanon; and the warring factions in Somalia as well as Yemen.

The domestic battle in Turkey is not between secularists and Islamists, as portrayed, but between democrats and autocrats.

"The birth of the new Turkey has been welcomed by Arabs. “Turkey has become an asset to the whole region and that constitutes a stabilizing factor in the Arab world,” Abdullah Khaliq Abdullah, professor of political science at the Emirates University, Dubai, told me. “Turkey is welcome in all Arab capitals, whereas Iran is in two or three.”

Israel can not afford to lose Turkey as an ally. Turkey may succeed in breaking this blockade of Gaza. It seems that Turkey is not about to abandon Gaza.

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turkey is a country that I am watching, for the reasons you post.... they are making huge headway in the endeavour for peace...and yes, I firmly believe that they could do it.....

I am watching to see what turkey has up its sleeve with israel..... as I do have the gut feeling that turkey wants to see the blockade removed, but quietly, wants to see the fighting stopped too between israel and gaza.....

I may be wrong but it appears that turkey is not a yes man type country when it comes to dealing with the UN and the usa..... they are content to play the peace maker, but they also intend to make their neighboring countries, a group that has a stronger and more united voice in the world.... and they may just do it without using trade restrictions or military strength......

time will tell

I'll come back to your post, when i have more time, LDD. When did I say that the item was not a video?????????????

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Originally Posted by Canticle

I'll come back to your post, when i have more time, LDD. When did I say that the item was not a video?????????????

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post 734

you quoted what I had said
''as for the jihad / martyr issue.... again, it was between DD and tenni.... I am not going to decide what a person said in a video, according to dictionary definitions...... the person that said it in the video, knows what they mean, we do not....... I know the different definations of jihad and martyr.... but I do not know in what context the person in the video, was using them
as raddick said in the chronicles of riddick " not my fight *.....''

and then you said
There was no video...it was text and if you don't read the links other people post...what is the point of this whole exercise?

now before you say that you were talking about the link you posted...... ( which would then clearly show that not only did you ignore what I was clearly talking about.... but that you replied and referred to something that I clearly was not talking about..... which means
A) your ability to read and comprehend things is seriously in need of work
B) your ability to convey your stance in a clear and concise form, is in need of work
C) you are out of your depth when it comes to understanding what people are and are not saying..... as you are constantly adding in your own spin and walls of text to things that people are not saying or talking about

I will remind you again, dictionaries give definations of words, NOT context of what a person is saying......

I was not debating the context or meaning of the words as the guy said them, as there is no way to be sure what he was refering to, beyond personal opinion..... and the moment you imply he is saying something other than what he meant.... you are making propaganda statements as you are putting your own interpretation on their words......

now canticle..... humour me......

using your posted links about jihad and martyr
If I am to use the defination ( according to your links ) for martyr ( martyr refering to the greek word for a witness in a court case
canticles defination of martyr

the gentleman sitting in the chair at 32-40 seconds into the video, is talking about being a martyr
he is sitting there saying I wanted to be a witness in a court case, I was not so lucky, now god willing, I will be a witness in a court case

ahhh yes..... people that were martyrs in the name of their cause.... are not witnesses in a court case.... they are dead.....

so we have 9 witnesses in a court case / martyrs.....

according to the definitions you posted..... jihad means struggle, in one of 3 areas,
a visible enemy
ones own failings
spiritual confusion

yet I failed to see the guy refer to a struggle to be a witness in a court case ( a jihad to be a martyr )

no... he was clearly referring to his desire to be a witness in a court case......

now.... please show me, how that statement fits him being on a aid ship going to the gaza strip....... cos it makes no bloody sense to me....


but if I research the word martyr.... I get something else

mar·tyr
(märtr) [Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Late Greek martur, from Greek martus, martur-, witness.]
n.
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.
a. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
b. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.
tr.v. mar·tyred, mar·tyr·ing, mar·tyrs
1. To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to religious beliefs.
2. To inflict great pain on; torment.

martyr [ˈmɑːtə]
n
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a person who suffers death rather than renounce his religious beliefs
2. a person who suffers greatly or dies for a cause, belief, etc.
3. a person who suffers from poor health, misfortune, etc. he's a martyr to rheumatism
4. Facetious or derogatory a person who feigns suffering to gain sympathy, help, etc.
vb also 'martyr"ize, 'martyr"ise (tr)
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to kill as a martyr
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to make a martyr of
[Old English martir, from Church Latin martyr, from Late Greek martur-, martus witness]
martyrization , martyrisation n


now if we apply 2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

the guy is saying, I want to suffer or make a sacrifice ( of what, is debatable ) for my cause / belief / principle...

that makes a dammed sight more sense if you compare that sentence, to what happened on the ship.......

Rnough LDD.....you waffle....I never thought I would put someone on ignore, but you are the most.......well I really have not got the strength to find the words.

canticle, I address your points, your links.... without a life history........ point out the areas, you need to address to clear up your stance..... so you call it waffle and put me on ignore ????

I take it to mean that no, you will not clear up the confusion over your own opinion ......... and yes, you will run away ....

btw a simple no and yes will suffice.....

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.

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Er, no, the Palestinians weren't offered everything they wanted. What about the final status of Jerusalem? What about guarantees for water rights? What about the right of return? What about Israeli settlements in the West Bank?

Mind you, Oslo was not necessarily a bad deal by any means, and the Palestinian leadership completely blew it. But to say that Oslo gave them everything they wanted is at best an oversimplification. Both Israelis and Palestinians would have to compromise on deeply held beliefs and assumptions in order to make peace a reality.

I might also point out that Palestinians weren't the only ones who had trouble accepting Oslo. Yitzhak Rabin was not killed by a Palestinian or any other Arab, after all. Both sides have their fanatics who are willing to raise hell to sink any peace accord.

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.


Pasa

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So Israel's case has lost its validity then.. wow..what an admission....

I don't actually agree with the statement that anyone's case has lost validity because of how they use violence.. they may be going arse over tit to achieve their ends but the case for a Palestinian state remains stronger than ever.. and funnily enough.. Israel's case is no more invalidated by their viscious use of the military and all its hardware against civilians.. the strengths.. and weaknesses of a case remain.. but the stupidity of violence complicates things and makes it so much harder to settle the issues..

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

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yeah that matches what I understand.....
confusing vid

now in the video, up to the 40 second point....... a man refers to wanting to be a martyr...... and we have been told by canticle, we need to think about the definition of martyr and jihad as it may not mean what we think

however in the video.... the guy gives no indication of his stance, beyond a neutral stance... and nothing to give context to his words

since canticle has stated its israel propaganada and we misunderstand what the guy is saying plus canticle has not clarified what she is saying in regards to that....
nobody has any idea what canticle is talking about........

so i broach the issue after canticle refers to me on a few occasions not addressing the issue and canticle puts me on ignore when i finally do, after me repeatedly stating that it was between tenni and DD, not me.... and I can not say what the guy meant with his reference to be a martyr

so if it makes more sense to you, hep, you are a better man than me......

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

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Originally Posted by mariersa

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

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the ones on the left in the nice dresses and wigs are the males, the gorgeous looking ones on the right. that are nude, are the gay males.... and the 3 that look about 40ish with hard faces and red hands, doing the dishes, are the females :tong:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariersa

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

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Knew ther wos a reason wy me wos a tart an lost me virginity so young... no tamata gettin ther dirty mitts on me...:bigrin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

I am lost in the pursuit of higher wisdom here over the word martyr.

The word does originate in Greek and does mean contextually "a witness" and "bear witness". The original Martyrs bore witness to the death and resurrection of The Christ.

The Martyrs then set about spreading the word of The Christ and the events They suffered 'trials and tribulations' usually ending in their deaths. They remained true to what they witnessed regardless. Thus the concept of SACRIFICE to the witnessed event coalesced. Over time and through emulation by others, being a martyr became making personal sacrifice in pursuit of an ideal.

Flexibiliites in language and adaptation have broadened the use of the term, However, the concept is not unduly diminished as a result.

If the peope on the aid flotilla to Gaza though that they would suffer, possibly even death, to deliver humanitarian aid then rightly they would be regarded as martyrs by their supporters. Possibly they comforted themselves that their possible personal sacrifice would be recognised in this way and claimed the title in the best english that they had available.

The extreme personal sacrifice to do good - sounds very much like martyrdom to me.

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...me an all Heph..an the sad reelly screwy thing is ther names will b used by unscrupulous shitbags 2 recruit even more.... such is the lot of those who create martyrs... on wicheva side...:(

So according to you if an American blows himself up somewhere we should also condemn all Americans and call them barbarians and just revoke all their rights. WTF?

I guess you really have no clue what the Palestinian narrative is. You are just restating what the Israeli one is. You certainly can't pretend that Israel was innocent and the victim of the peace process. Sure there were security issues that Palestinians had to deal with, and sure they weren't perfect. But this victim syndrom is honestly just pathetic. Own up to the actions. Be brave enough to criticize your own when it necessary. Israelis themselves do it. Jews themselves do it. Yes not all Jewish people agree with what the state of Israel is doing and they do not feel it represents them.

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

The PLO renounced violence? Really? Was this before, or after the rocket attacks after the Oslo accords? The Oslo accords were wonderful. The Palestinians were offered EVERYTHING they wanted. All they had to do was quit attacking Israel. That's it. Simple.

And then they decided to lynch two IDF members. And then they decided to send in a wave of suicide bombers. No. The PLO, nor the PLA, nor the Fata, nor the Hamas has ever been peaceful.

Yes, I've heard the Palestinian narrative. And before 1967, they had a case. Since 1967, they've become extremists. Extremists don't have a case. People who believe that blowing up busses, and shopping centers, and attacking civilian population centers don't have a case. They lost any validity due to their actions.

Vowing to eliminate the state of Israel is the same as vowing to eliminate the Jews. Ordinarily I'd say we were splitting hairs, but here I can't just chalk it up to that In fact, Not only Hamas, but Al Qaeda leader Al Zwahari stated on several occasions that Jihad against the Jews would not be limited to the region of "Palestine" (his word) but would be affected across the Globe. He has said, at least once, that no Jewish child anywhere is safe.

Pasa

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

...me an all Heph..an the sad reelly screwy thing is ther names will b used by unscrupulous shitbags 2 recruit even more.... such is the lot of those who create martyrs... on wicheva side...:(

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Now that is something I can agree wholeheartedly with Fran. Snogs you and hands you a glass of cognac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariersa

I knew it, the suicide bombers are indeed martyrs:rolleyes:

Praciticing that screwy distorted view of Islam, 10,000 virgins, before I'd sign up, tell me their gender, please!!

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Wow! Yours must be the deluxe version of Islam. UK muslims are only promised 17 (why 17?).

.

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

Wow! Yours must be the deluxe version of Islam. UK muslims are only promised 17 (why 17?).

.

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Not sure ther r 17 virgins in the UK Heph..reckon that mus b it....:bigrin:

bugger the virgins, too unexperienced and I am too old to teach them anything...... now if there was a open bar tab that never needs paying..... mmmmmmmm

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

bugger the virgins, too unexperienced and I am too old to teach them anything...... now if there was a open bar tab that never needs paying..... mmmmmmmm

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Been a wile since me wos a virgin Duckie.. but didn haff enjoy bein tot..well most a bein tot.. sum wos a bit grim an even that tot me a lot an all.. but as me grew up an got more experienced..didn haff enjoy teachin...:bigrin:

Oh he's not bad at teaching some things, Fran, but then I taught him a thing or two myself :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkeyes

Been a wile since me wos a virgin Duckie.. but didn haff enjoy bein tot..well most a bein tot.. sum wos a bit grim an even that tot me a lot an all.. but as me grew up an got more experienced..didn haff enjoy teachin...:bigrin:

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puts fingers in ears ... la la la la fran is a virgin..la la la la fran is innocent..... la la la la fran is well behaved la la la la la la....... :tong:

Have the world fogoten that it was the jews that INVADED PALESTINE???? and since then their territory ( ISRAEL) is been growing all the time by taking more and more land from the Palestinians.
There are many Jews groups world wide that are agains the behaver and greed of the Israelites.
No i am not Arab or follow eny religion of any type, just sick of any group claim land or anything else in the name of some GOD.
It was said long time a go that religion is the "opium of the people".
To much one side reporting by interested groups.
Churchil said. We are making a big mistake sending the Jews to Palestine, it only will good for the arms and wepons manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by oralplus

Have the world fogoten that it was the jews that INVADED PALESTINE???? and since then their territory ( ISRAEL) is been growing all the time by taking more and more land from the Palestinians.
There are many Jews groups world wide that are agains the behaver and greed of the Israelites.
No i am not Arab or follow eny religion of any type, just sick of any group claim land or anything else in the name of some GOD.
It was said long time a go that religion is the "opium of the people".
To much one side reporting by interested groups.
Churchil said. We are making a big mistake sending the Jews to Palestine, it only will good for the arms and wepons manufacturers.

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There is something in what you say, sweetheart, but alas what is done is done when we consider in the influx of Jews in the first half of the 20th century, and into Israel since 1948. That that influx and the creation of Israel has been a destabilising influence is unarguable. But it is in reality pointless looking back and both Israeli and Palestiinian must look forward. The whole argument in these pages is about the intransigence of both sides to do that and in particular, in my opinion, that the reluctance of the most powerful and well equipped and most well equipped to truly be committed to finding a solution.

That God keeps cropping up in the entire argument makes it doubly difficult to reach a solution because faith in a God often brings out the worst in us. This can be seen throughout history, and in my view Christianity has been the worst offender.. not Christianity itself but those who run it and have stalked the globe in its name. Islam, historically a much more tolerant religion even although every bit is expansionist as Christianity, has in the last century and in particular since the fall of the Shah in Iran began to articulate itself in a much more odious and radical way, with its more progressive and tolerant sects increasingly being sidelined and defensive. We can argue why this is, and the frustration of millions in the middle east in general and the Palestinians in particular has much to do with that movement. Isarel's intransigence and the west's actions in the region also play their part in making a large part of Islam much less tolerant.. yet like the odious nature of those who ran Christianity, now we have people running much of Islam and performing many things in its name who are every bit as odious as those historical Christians.

Islam, like Christianity is an extremely tolerant religion.. unfortunately many of those who act in its name use it for their own ends.. even more unfortunately, in both Christianity and Islam, the more unpleasant are in the ascendancy.. many do not even believe in a God.

The quotation was that of Karl Marx, but he was not the first to use such a claim.. The Marquis de Sade, no lover of priests and religion, used something very similar half a century earlier in his novel "'L'Histoire de Juliette".


"Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realisation of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Karl Marx 'Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right' (1843)"