Gaza Aid Convoy

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Originally Posted by tenni

Thanks DD
re: post 624
This has not been reported in Canada CBC, Globe and Mail nor the National Post (a conservative National newspaper). All are reputable news sources. When I read the first post, I can see that it would probably be rejected as a biased emotional rant rather than accurate news reporting in Canada. Strange that it is under the CNN banner. It is not under a New York Times search nor the BBC webpage search. I notice the reference to Fox news in the second webpage and the use of emotional rather than neutral wording.

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Quite!!

[QUOTE=hardnbubbly;172601]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-aid-israel


''They refused to accept it until all activists have been released by Israel according to the guardian. I personally think that they should be more worried about feeding their people and taking care of them. However, this does send a message of solidarity with the activists and demands from Israel to return the pirated items to their rightful destination.''

Thank you for that link hardnbubbly. How can Hamas be blamed, for refusing the aid from the flotilla. It has been tainted by what happened in international waters. It would be like accepting money, taken from the pockets of the dead.

Also, why should Hamas trust any deliveries, of aid, from Israel. How do they know that those supply trucks are not some kind of Trojan Horse. The Israeli's are very good at kidnapping people and carting them off to Israel (as they did with Mordechai Vanunu, when he was taken, in Italy), so a truck could easily be loaded with commandos, hiding behind the aid. Such things happen in times of conflict. The Greeks were not the first to think of things like that. Even if that is a myth....it is symbolic, of what can happen.

''Its funny that all the sites you listed are Israeli propaganda sites.. do you happen to check elsewhere?''

Yes, I'd noticed that, too.

''FYI.. the Hamas leadership has indication on several occasions that they would accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders. However, if Israel is not reciprocating, I don't see why they should just offer that concession to Israel on a silver platter. The PLO did it in the early 1990's, what did they get? More settlements, more land confiscations, worse economic conditions.''

Yep, I remember that........but you do realise.....don't you....that none of this will be relavent! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Here is the latest on the aid getting in:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...42abf42317.htm


Guess what.. their policy worked..

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If the UN along with other aid agencies and the Red Cross and Red Crescent, are also invilved, that is how things should be done.

What we need is the UN Security Council, deciding that ships flying the UN flag will break the blockade, but, of course, we all know that the USA would use it's veto and not allow that.

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

can you please supply info about what is being smuggled thru the tunnels.....
I am going by reports by egypt and israel...... so there is no breakdown of exactly what is being smuggled thru the tunnels....

what I know, is aid / weapons and commercial goods are been smuggled in.... thru over 300 tunnels..... unfortunately the red cross is not able to provide exact numbers as they are not in control of the tunnels and nor are the aid foundations....

israel is being fired on with chocolate flavoured and chocolate powered missles ???? ok..... are they foil wrapped or just plain chocolate

you really have to ask yourself, where the missiles are getting into the gaza strip, if they are not coming in by plane, ship or border control....and there is tunnels under the ground that israel actively states, are not monitored

now I am realistic... you are not gonna be able to smuggle in 600 ton a day thru tunnels.... and nor am I suggesting that its going on on that scale.....
so aid is a loose term, but a backpack of meds or a field medics pack is actually a lot of meds for basic treatment and first aid ....... and thats just one person.....

you have 7 people, two carrying med packs, 2 carrying rgps and 3 carrying food..... thats a lot of stuff for a militant cell...... ( in english, a unit of about 7-10 people )

tho I really have to ask, the tonnes of aid going into gaza, is it getting to the kids or is it being stockpiled by the *ruling * groups..... as happens in a lot of aid distribution areas in other countries

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I do hope that these tunnels have been getting as much humanitarian aid through to the people of Gaza, as they possibly can. Note...I said humanitarian......not weapons, or weapon making equipment.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

Yeah some are biased but the reports are real. They would rather deny aid to people who need it than accept anything that is coming over from Israel.

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Oh, biased they most certainly be! How do you know that these reports are real and not just more Israeli propaganda?

How do you, personally decide, what is real, what is truth, what is biased, what is unbiased??????

And why should Hamas and the people of Gaza trust the Israelis to deliver safe, untainted aid to them. Why should they not be wary of the hand that feeds and then bombs the hell out of them??????

You'll come back with ''if Hamas didn't do this and accepted peace and didn't attack Israel ,'' etc. It goes round and around in circles. two semitic peoples (one far more semitic than the other), fighting a battle of words, religion, long held mistrust and ongoing conflicts.

Why should the Palestinians cow tow to the Israelis???? Why should Israel expect everyone else to have peace on Israel's terms......or nothing at all??????

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hamas charter.

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I would agree that what was there to be read, was not acceptable, but it could hardly be called the Hamas charter, as it appeared to be snippets of whatever that charter is, in it's entirety and also quotes from speeches made by what could be called ''fundamentalists,'' or ''extremists.''

Interesting to see that MidEastWeb is a grouping of people from what would appear to be the three monotheistic religions, of the area. And it appears to be a non profit organisation, registered in Israel.

Interesting and informative, nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling

As politely as I can say it, BULLSHIT. The protesters were processed and on their way to being released within 17 hours, the aid sat for a week. Pick another party line.

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Wow DD, this comes over a little like.....''believe the news I read.....because anything else cannot be the truth''

You may be right....totally right......but you have got some of us thinking that you only believe pro Israeli news sources.

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Originally Posted by hardnbubbly

Do you know how often members of the Israeli parliament say that they wanna drive Arabs out of there? Do you know how many mosques are desecrated in the west bank? How many cemeteries? how many Olive groves are uprooted?

Hamas was created in 1987. That is 40 years after the creation of Israel and 20 years after the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Gee.. I wonder why Israel didn't give the people on the land it occupied citizenship.. I wonder why it opressed them..

I wonder why Shimon Peres gave orders to soldiers to break the bones of any protesters?

There are two sides to each story. All you see is Israel as a victim. Go do your research on the standards of living within Israel. Do your research on who gets citizenship and who doesn't. Why should a Jewish person living in New York have more citizenship rights in Israel than a person who's great grand parents lived in that country and still lives there?

This is not a struggle of one people against another. This is not what a lot of people are brainwashed to think. This is a struggle for human rights.. for equality. Israel is at a crossroads now. It either wants a Jewish state and has to return to the 1967 borders, or it wants a democratic secular state with all the people living in it.

Oh I forgot a third option, ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians out of it. I bet a lot of people think it is a valid options. They probably think that Palestinians are less than human anyway.

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I totally agree hardnbubbly. The whole situation has become a disaster for all involved.....iimmigrant Jews and the indigenous Palestinian population, of Christian and Muslim people. No one wants to seem to acknowledge that there are Christian Arabs, as well as Muslim. They are found in Egypt, Syria (a mixture of semitic and non-semitic people), Iraq. Religion has become politics....in much the same way as it did in Northern Ireland.....only it has had much longer to become a festering wound.

People who have lived, for generations in a homeland, should come first. if Israel had not had mass immigration of Jews from across the world, it would not have survived as a state, with only a few thousand people inhabiting it.

There are ultra orthodox Jews, who think that Palestinians and other Arabs and also Christians, are beneath them. I have watched such people make these remarks. I once entered a chat room, upon another site, thinking that it would be interesting. I got booted, for being a Christian whore.

The room was run by an ultra orthodox Jew.....who was as fundamentalist as any Islamic or Christian fundamentalist. His view was that Muslims and Christians should be got rid of....for we were evil. So those people do exist....but hopefully, they are in a minority.

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

from the link you posted

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.


am I seeing that hamas had decided not to accept aid ??????

but hamas represents the people of gaza, as their government..... so tell me again, about the starving kids that are waiting for the aid.... that hamas was holding up.....not israel

its about bloody time the UN got involved and got the aid issue sorted....and made sure it was getting thru where needed....... this is why I fucking hate politics.... they sit behind their desks and rattle on and on..... yet, there is work to do at ground zero, and that is where the UN and aid foundations need to have their asses, not in office chairs......

the red cross prides themselves on unbiased aid support with no agenda.... ( recently it appeared in the news about the red cross suppling med support for terrorist based groups ).... so where are they now..... ???

fuck the political agenda, the who is right and who is wrong.... get the aid into there and out to the people that need it..... as should have happened months ago..... instead of the UN and other groups sitting with their heads up their asses, pointing fingers, sipping lattes and eating chocolate biscuits.....

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The UN should have been more involved from the beginning. That is obvious.

641

‘’Some people might think that, but I don't think they are less than human. Yet I see many people saying that Israel should go home. Home to fucking where. This is their home. They are willing to have a two state solution but it keeps getting thrown in their faces by Hamas that they will not live beside Zionists. Any peace treaty brokered has been broken by Hamas. They do not believe in peace. They believe in nothing but a Middle East free of Zionist "scum".’’

Round and around. You won’t call them less than human and neither would I, but will you, in your own words, condemn the thoughts, words and actions of fundamentalist Jews, who, though they are probably a minority, are no less dangerous and offensive as Islamic or Christian fundamentalists.

The many Jews who emigrated to Israel, were not all escaping from oppressive regimes. Those from the Americas and Western Europe already had nationhood and a country to call their own. Those people, who are possibly in the majority, went to Israel, for idealistic reasons.

642
‘’DD.. likewise there are Israelis that think they should rid Israel of the "Barbaric" Arabs (including the foreign minister).

AND LOOOOLLLL.... Israel is willing to have a two state solution?? At best they are suggesting what they call an economic peace... which is basically for Palestinians to give up all their rights in return for a promise of improved living standards. No voting rights, nothing.

I have yet to see an Israeli official make a serious offer for a Palestinian state while in office. They all somehow suddenly grow a pair of balls to make the suggestion after they are out of office.

Fine, for argument's sake let's forget about Gaza and Hamas. What about the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank? They have been doing whatever Israel wanted for 17 years now. Where is their state? The number of settlers in the territory that is supposed to be their state pretty much doubled since the Oslo peace agreements. And frankly and my opinion, it is probably too late to even consider a two state solution. The facts on the ground that Israel has create pretty much precludes that from happening.’’

The situation truly does, get worse and worse.

644
‘’And I'm so sure you were invited to all the meetings just as the rest of the world was. What is serious to you might not be serious to Hamas and what is serious to Israel might not be serious to you or Hamas.’’

It strikes me, that you didn’t really have an answer for hardnbubbly.


645
‘’Publicly right now, there is a peace offer from all Arab states which states that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders every single one of that states will be in peace with Israel (and Hamas said it would abide by it).

This offer is still standing since 2003 and has been reiterated multiple times. Israel choses to ignore it. So tell me, do they really want peace?’’

Hardnbubbly.....like a liar twists anothers words, to make themself the victim, so will a powerful state, whether it be big or small.

656
‘’RE 652



What's the fucking point? I won't stoop to your level. So I'll just say... DILLIGAF?’’

I can assure you, that if you stooped to my level, you would need to climb a ladder, but once at the top of the ladder and upon a level surface, you would find yourself in the company of an intelligent, caring, cultured and honest person, who has deeply held beliefs and moral convictions. I also respect the views of others, even if I don’t agree with them and I don’t go in for abbreviations....not all that often.....so I am not into cyber-speak. Nor will I use foul language, when foul language is not required. Sorry, but not sorry to say, DD....that with this post.....you truly let yourself down. I am saddened and sorrowful.....but that’s life.

Love and light.

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Originally Posted by hot_fun_summertime

Well said.

People seem to like to conveniently forget that Palestinians are seen as subhuman by Israelis based on the 3rd option you wrote about, and that Israel would love to get rid of all of the Palestinians like the Nazis tried to do to the Jews during WW II. Hypocrites. :rolleyes: Israel is not for peace nor are they innocent like some people would love to believe.

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The fact that Palestine still exists is proof that you are wrong.

Israel could wipe them off the planet if it chose. And it would take less than a week.

Pasa

655
Very interesting Hephand Yes, a link, if you have one, would be most helpful.

658
Thank you for that Fran. It just shows that the different Jewish factions will argue (and probably fight one another, if it came to it....not necessarily over a subject like this), with one another, as will Muslims and Christians. If we can’t live peacefully within our own communities, how can we ever hope to co-exist happily, with others. Sighs.

659
Without acceptance, from all sides, there can never be peace or freedom

660
‘’I still do not see the pro Israeli posters explaining why Israel is not an Apartheid state. I've pointed out as has another poster how Israel is segregating and denying civil rights to a group of people living in its territory. This is true for both Arabs living within the accepted Israeli territory and most definitely the Arabs living in Gaza and Paletstine. They are all born within the territory but not permitted to be considered citizens with voting rights.

Why are you unable to justify Israel's actions of removing voting rights to Arabs ? You simply ignore the Apartheid issue.’’

Because some people will not be swayed from what they believe, or from what they have been taught, or from what they have decide, for themselves, is right or wrong.

661
‘’go start a thread about it then tenni..... we would not want to upset canticle by going off topic...... and not talking about the flotilla....’’
Why would going off topic upset me LDD??? I have been admonished, on many a thread, for going off topic, when going off topic, but in the same general area of conversation, is sometimes necessary. The discussion, ultimately, returns to the main subject.
So tell me where I have said anything about going off topic and only sticking to OP’s starter??????

‘’btw, who are the pro israel people....’’

You have to be joking!

‘’fran is quiet, hep is neutral like me, and pasa I think is pro israel in the flotilla issue, not sure about other parts.... DD is pro israel on a few things....and canticle.... well.... god knows... I am not sure she knows herself.....’’

Fran is a full time teacher and a mother. She may have other things that are keeping her busy?????

If Heph is neutral, then he being so, in a manner which does him credit. He is able to criticise the Israelis, without being against them as a state, or a people and without showing that he either does, or does not support the Palestinians and Hamas. He is to be congratulated for that.

LDD, you may think that you are neutral, but that is not how it always comes across. The same with DD, although I know that she is a compassionate person and cares about death and injuries upon both sides.

Me.....god doesn’t know....because I don’t believe in one....but I know where I stand and what I believe and think. I know what my ideas and views are.

Should I foljow a certain protocol and produce opinions, which only go along with those that other people hold? If so....sorry...you’ll never get that from me....upon any subject. I think for myself and do not believe all that is shoved before my eyes. Maybe I’m a free thinker.

I’m not pro or anti Israel. I’m not pro or anti Palestinian. I sometimes think, LDD, that you do not fully read the words of others, or understand them. I find you contradictory, at times, but I re-read and reread and get what you’re on about...I think...in the end.

I just don’t happen to think that the state of Israel is special.....any more special than any other part of the Middle East, or any other part of the world, where there is conflict and strife and where innocent men, women and children are being killed and maimed...and YES...I will keep mentioning the rest of the world... where far more terrible things are happening and yet, the UN, says not much at all and does even less and the western countries, put those situations on ignore, too.

There is oil in the Middle East.....there is pressure there and there is a big Jewish influence in political circles, finance, big business....that has to be kept sweet.

The UN should be sorting this out, as it was the UN who created Israel and the mess which has followed on. Every single country in the world should pressure the UN to act and MAKE both sides act in an humane and decent and respectful manner toward one another.

Perhaps one of the first things which should be discussed, is the removal of all Israel’s nuclear arms. It cannot be argued, by anyone, for any reason, that Israel has any more right to nuclear weapons, than any other country.

What we don’t need are certain people calling others names....doubting their intelligence, resorting to foul language and going on and on about how they would like to see Iran taken out.

These Middle Eastern countries, which some seem to look down on, such as Iraq (Babylon), Iran (Persia) and the land which was home to Israelites/Canaanites, Samaritans, Philistines etc, etc, had rich and flourishing cultures, when the European ancestors of people, in many countries, were still to reach any kind of sophistication, in culture, art and great learning. Let that be a lesson to all.

I know where I stand.....for the human rights, of all, upon this planet and a day when we can all respect different belief systems...or disbelief....and rejoice in the fact that there is such a great diversity of faith, disbelief, political thought, culture to be found upon the planet.

Do you know where you stand?

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

The fact that Palestine still exists is proof that you are wrong.

Israel could wipe them off the planet if it chose. And it would take less than a week.

Pasa

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There you go again, talking about the israeli ability to wipe out the Palestinians, in less than a week, should the fancy take them. This shows a distinct lack of caring...it really does and that bomb 'em to bits and shoot first, ask questions later, mentality, that will never get humankind anywhere.

It's a distasteful and frightening attitude toward human life and existence.

Once again, Fran, Heph, Tenni, hardnbubbly.....thank you for your posts.

Apologies for the delay in replying - diverting matters.

DD - one of the links was the BBC news

LDD - I try to be neutral but confess that I gravitate towards the plight of the Palestinians especially on the matter of the convoy which was the subject of this topic.

I have spotted the revival of the phosphous shell disagreement which as far as I am concerned was done and dusted with criticism again for the Israelis. They have so much going for them and yet they manage to blight themselves time and again.

It is a curious anachronism that the Nazis of WW2 were the ones who tried to support the Zionists of their day to set up a Jewish homeland in the very place that it eventually became a reality in. This promoted by the victors of WW2 as a reaction to the oppression that european Jews were eventually to receive at the hands of the same Nazis.

The Israelis probably could wipe out their immediate and visible opponents militarily and within a week but likely it would be a Pyrrhic victory and it would offer only a temporary respite. Can one really wipe out all anatgonism that way? Maybe they have learnt that much from the plight of their WW2 relatives.

There are plans for improvements in the welfare of the Palestinians and the Israelis are altering their stance. These are both good moves. The world is not only watching, it is getting involved on this basis. Here's hoping.

I remember one of the people on the floatilla stating that the UN and world had ignored or abandoned the Palestinians and that is why he was on the floatilla. He saw injustice. Face it, most of us were not paying any attention fo the past three years to the plight of Gaza. This has brought it to the world's attention. I wish that you are correct Heph that a change in providing aid so that Gazans may begin to build a real economy rather than being philosophical children being feed by Israel and international aid groups. Gaza need to get its businesses and factories working.

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Originally Posted by Canticle

There you go again, talking about the israeli ability to wipe out the Palestinians, in less than a week, should the fancy take them. This shows a distinct lack of caring...it really does and that bomb 'em to bits and shoot first, ask questions later, mentality, that will never get humankind anywhere.

It's a distasteful and frightening attitude toward human life and existence.

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No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.

Pasa

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Originally Posted by hot_fun_summertime

That's not proof of anything.

Israel treats the Palestinian people as sub human second class citizens and attack Palestinians yet somehow it's excusable or OK for them to do this in your mind.

Life in settlements for Palestinians is like life was for the Jews in the Nazi ghettos. Just wait until the ethnic "cleansing" of Palestinians begins.

Are you so blind that you automatically think that Israel is some innocent lamb and has done nothing wrong at all? <----- This is a rhetorical question so do not bother answering it and we all know the answer.

You keep using the wrong fact that Israel has the capability of destroying all Palestinians or Moslems somehow yet this hypothetical argument does not hold water at all.

I'm sure you would like to see all Palestinians and Moslems wiped off the face of the Earth. :rolleyes:

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You are wrong. Each and every statement in this post is wrong, both individually, and when taken as a whole (even the rhetorical statement). In fact, I didn't think anyone could be more wrong than Canticle usually is, and yet, you succeeded. Yay You!

Pasa

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

Three different investigations have been conducted by the IAEA to see if Israel has used phosphorous. In all three cases they have said no.

That difference is all the difference in the world.

Pasa

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www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322 [/URL]

Gosh, it's neutral Cambodia afaterall, it's an impossible arguement, I guess the solution is to move all of Isreal to Florida. Why continue to support an illegimate, ill-gotten state made from an agreement to provide a necessary amunnition component made between a Russian Zionist and those who required the component. Unfortunatently, Zionism is absolutely in control of modern Isreali politics. Yes, indeed ask the "originl Jews" those who still abide by their original books, those hasetics(sp) why aren't they in power, afterall they are the "true children". OH shyt, I forgot, they believe in just "loving" thine "neighbour" etc.

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Originally Posted by Hephaestion

Apologies for the delay in replying - diverting matters.

DD - one of the links was the BBC news

LDD - I try to be neutral but confess that I gravitate towards the plight of the Palestinians especially on the matter of the convoy which was the subject of this topic.

I have spotted the revival of the phosphous shell disagreement which as far as I am concerned was done and dusted with criticism again for the Israelis. They have so much going for them and yet they manage to blight themselves time and again.

It is a curious anachronism that the Nazis of WW2 were the ones who tried to support the Zionists of their day to set up a Jewish homeland in the very place that it eventually became a reality in. This promoted by the victors of WW2 as a reaction to the oppression that european Jews were eventually to receive at the hands of the same Nazis.

The Israelis probably could wipe out their immediate and visible opponents militarily and within a week but likely it would be a Pyrrhic victory and it would offer only a temporary respite. Can one really wipe out all anatgonism that way? Maybe they have learnt that much from the plight of their WW2 relatives.

There are plans for improvements in the welfare of the Palestinians and the Israelis are altering their stance. These are both good moves. The world is not only watching, it is getting involved on this basis. Here's hoping.

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Yes, here's hoping.

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Originally Posted by tenni

I remember one of the people on the floatilla stating that the UN and world had ignored or abandoned the Palestinians and that is why he was on the floatilla. He saw injustice. Face it, most of us were not paying any attention fo the past three years to the plight of Gaza. This has brought it to the world's attention. I wish that you are correct Heph that a change in providing aid so that Gazans may begin to build a real economy rather than being philosophical children being feed by Israel and international aid groups. Gaza need to get its businesses and factories working.

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So do I, because thereare innocent people, who just want to live a life and see their children grow up and love and be happy.

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

No. It does not. Reading comprehension is not your friend, apparently.

What it shows is that when someone says that Israel wants to destroy the Palestinians, that they are wrong. They obviously don't want to do this. If they wanted to, they could and would have done it by now.

Having the ability to do something, and refraining from doing so, shows restraint and a desire not to do that thing. And, unlike with the US and the USSR, it is not a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction that stays their hand.

Pasa

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I think that we ALL comprehend, what you write and some of it isn't at all nice. in fact some of it is quite vicious.

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Originally Posted by hot_fun_summertime

There's something called keeping an open mind and looking at something from all opinions.

Stop reading Pro-Israel sites, swallowing the flavor-ade/kool aid, and do your own research and you will see what myself, Canticle, Tenni, hardandbubbly, and darkeyes writing about how Israel is not for peace and treating Palestinians like subhumans is true.

Until then your arguments that Israel is somehow for peace are completely moot and foolish drivel since you've shown that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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He also falls down, when he needs to resort to insults and quite nasty words. I don't find that very immature you can bet that pasa has not looked at any of the links posted by people, other than pro Israeli people.

I crossed this by accident, hmmm, seems sort of pro/con/pro/con

.Yishuv (Hebrew: ישוב‎, literally "settlement") or Ha-Yishuv (the Yishuv, Hebrew: הישוב‎, or the full term הישוב היהודי בארץ ישראל Hayishuv Hayehudi b'Eretz Yisrael ("The Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel") is the term used in Hebrew referring to the body of Jewish residents in the Holy Land before the establishment of the State of Israel. The residents and new settlers were referred to collectively as "the Yishuv" or "Ha-Yishuv." The term came into use in the 1880s, when there were about 25,000 Jews living in Eretz Yisrael, and continued to be used until 1948, by which time there were about 700,000 Jews there, and is used in Hebrew even nowadays to denote the Pre-State Jewish residents in the Holy Land.

A distinction is sometimes drawn between the Old Yishuv and the New Yishuv.

The Old Yishuv refers to all the Jews living there before the aliyah of 1882 by the Zionist movement. The Old Yishuv residents were religious Jews living mainly in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. Smaller communities were in Jaffa, Haifa, Peki'in, Acre, Nablus, Shfaram and until 1779 also in Gaza. A large part of the Old Yishuv concentrated their time in Torah studies and lived off Ma'amodot (stipends), received by donations from the Jews in the Diaspora.

The New Yishuv refers to those who built homes outside the Old City walls of Jerusalem in the 1860s, and to the establishment of Petah Tikva and the First Aliyah of 1882, followed by the founding of settlements until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

The First Aliyah was the very beginning of the creation of the New Yishuv. More than 25,000 Jews immigrated to Israel. The immigrants came to Israel with the idea of creating a national home for Jews. Most of the immigrants were Russians escaping the pogroms, as well as some Yemenites. Many of the immigrants were affiliated with Habbayit Hayehudi/Hovevei Tzion. Hovevei Tzion purchased land from Arabs and created many different settlements such as Yesod Hamaalah, Rosh Pinna, Gedera, Rishon Le'tzion, Nes Tziona & Rechovot. These agricultural settlements were supported by philanthropists from abroad, chiefly Theodore Rothschild. Eliezer Ben-Yehuda arrived in the first Aliyah. He took it upon himself to revive the Hebrew language. He along with Nissim Bechar started a school for teaching Hebrew and later on founded the first Hebrew newspaper.

During the Second Aliyah in 1903-1914 35,000 new immigrants came over primarily from Russia.

During the Ottoman Empire
The Ottoman government was not very supportive of the new settlers from the First and Second Aliyah, specifically those that retained their former nationality. The Ottoman government officially restricted Jewish immigration. Those who adopted Ottoman nationality were liable for the Turkish draft. The settlers faced some very hard times. There were many epidemics in Palestine at this time, impoverishing and killing many. The Yishuv relied on money from abroad to support the settlements.

By 1914, the old Yishuv was a minority and the new Yishuv began to express itself and its Zionist goals. Labor organizations were created along with health and cultural services, all run by the Va’ad Leumi. The first Hebrew high schools were opened in Palestine as well as the Technion, the first institution for higher learning. Hashomer, a Zionist self defense group, was created to protect the Jewish settlements. Arthur Ruppin created the Palestine Office for land acquisition along with agricultural and urban expansion.

The Zionist movement tried to find work for the new immigrants who arrived in the Second Aliyah. However, most were middle class and were not physically fit or knowledgeable in agricultural work. The Jewish plantation owners had previously hired Arab workers who accepted low wages and were very familiar with agriculture. The leaders of the Zionist movement insisted that plantation owners (those who arrived in the First Aliyah) only hire Jewish workers and grant higher wages. The conquest of labor was a major Zionist goal. However, this caused some turmoil in the Yishuv for there were those who felt that they were discriminating against the Arabs just as they had been discriminated against in Russia. The Arabs became bitter from the discrimination despite the small number of Arabs that were affected by this.

During World War I, the conditions for the Jews in the Ottoman Empire worsened. All those Jews who were of an enemy nationality were exiled and others were drafted into the Turkish army. Many of those exiled fled to Egypt and the United States. Those who remained in Palestine faced hard economic times. There was disagreement whether to support the British or the Turks. A clandestine group, Nili, was established to pass information to the British in the hope of defeating the Turks and ending their rule over Palestine. The purpose and members of the Nili were discovered. All involved were executed by the Turks except its founder, Aaron Aaronsohn, who escaped to Egypt. During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine diminished by a third due to deportations, immigration, economic trouble and disease. During World War I, there were two British battalions of Jews, called the Zion Mule Corps, who were to fight on the front of Palestine. They helped in the British capture of Palestine, leading to the Turkish surrender. The members of the Zion Mule Corps later made up the Yishuv's defense groups that would fight against the British.

During the British Mandate
World War I ended, along with the Ottoman Empire. Britain gained control of Palestine through the Sykes-Picot Agreement. There was hope that British control would allow the creation of a Jewish national homeland as promised in the Balfour Declaration. The British Mandate was formalized in 1922 based on the Balfour Declaration. The British were supposed to help the Jews build a national home and promote the creation of self-governing institutions. The mandate provided for an agency in which the Jews could represent Jewish interests and promote Jewish immigration. It was called the Jewish Agency for Palestine, and was only created ten years later, serving as the de-facto government of the Yishuv. Along with a Jewish agency there was to be a general self-governing institution created in Palestine including Jews and Arabs. The yishuv feared such an institution due to the Arab majority, but none was created in the end due to the Arabs' refusal to cooperate with the Jews or British. The optimism that existed in the beginning of the British mandate soon diminished due to continued hardships in the Yishuv. Most of the European funds that supported the Jewish settlements before World War I ended. The Arabs instigated riots against the Jews due to their opposition to the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate. The British limited immigration through yearly quotas; only those who received "certificates" could make Aliyah.

Arab Riots
There were Arab riots throughout 1920-21 in opposition to the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs tried to show the British the instability of Palestine and that a Jewish homeland was ungovernable. Riots increased in 1929 after the fourth Aliyah. The Arabs claimed that Jewish immigration and land purchases were displacing them and taking their jobs away. These riots were also instigated by false rumors that the Jews were planning on building a synagogue near the western wall. These riots led to the evacuation of Hebron's indigenous Jewish population.

White papers
The British responded to the Arab riots with the White Papers. The white papers attempted to stop immigration to Palestine based on the Hope Simpson Report, which stated that Palestine after economic development could only support 20,000 more immigrant families so as not to infringe on the Arab population's placement and employment. Upon Jewish criticism of this policy it was clarified that immigration would not be stopped.

There were many Jewish immigrants that arrived throughout the 1930s in the fifth Aliyah despite the immigration quotas. Many who came were fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe. Those that came from Nazi Germany were able to come because of the Hesder agreement. This allowed Jews to escape from Germany to Palestine in return for paying a ransom to the Reich. The Yishuv now had a population of about 400,000.

The Palestinian revolt
The increasing numbers of Jewish immigration and land purchases along with the British Mandate angered the Arabs, bringing them to radicalism. In April 1936, Arabs attacked a Jewish bus leading to a series of incidents that escalated into a major Palestinian rebellion. The British were caught by surprise and were unable to prevent the thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews that were killed in the revolt. The Haganah protected the Yishuv’s settlements while the Irgun and Etzel, more radical groups, attacked Arab settlements. A coalition of recently formed Arab political parties formed the Arab Higher Committee (AHC). It declared a national strike in support of three basic demands: cessation of Jewish immigration, an end to all further land sales to the Jews, and the establishment of an Arab national government. The Arabs threatened that if the British didn't comply with their demands then they would join the adversaries of the British. This concerned the British for World War II was just beginning and they knew they would need Middle Eastern oil. The British worked with their Arab allies to bring a halt to the AHC riots. The Peel Commission reported, in July 1937, that the British obligations to the Arabs and Zionists were irreconcilable and the mandate unworkable. It suggested the partition of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states, with the British mandate governing over Nazareth, Bethlehem, and Jerusalem along with a corridor from Jerusalem to the coast. The Jews accepted the general principal of a partition while the Arabs refused any partition plan. The British government sent a technical team called the Woodhead Commission to detail the plan. The Woodhead Commission in the end concluded that the partition was impractical.

The Palestinian Revolt broke out again in the autumn of 1937. The British ended the revolt using harsh measures, deporting many Palestinian Arab leaders and shutting down the AHC. In the Yishuv, the Palestinian Revolt reinforced the already firm belief in the need for a strong Jewish defense network. Finally, the Arab agricultural boycott that began in 1936 forced the Jewish economy into even greater self-sufficiency. The Haganah during this period changed from being a small clandestine militia to a large military force. The British security forces at this time cooperated with the Haganah to tame the Arabs. In 1938 Captain Orde Wingate created the Special Night Squads (SNS) that were comprised mostly of Haganah members. SNS used the element of surprise in night raids to protect the Jewish settlements and attack the Arabs.

White Paper of 1939
The British suppressed the revolt and published the White Paper of 1939. It allowed for a total of only 75,000 Jews to enter Palestine over a five-year period. During this time the Yishuv entered a period of relative peace with the Arabs of Palestine.

During World War II
The Yishuv wanted to help their fellow Jews who were being murdered by the Nazis in Eastern Europe. Many Jews from Eastern Europe were prevented from fleeing to Palestine by strict immigration quotas established by the white papers. The Jewish Agency organized illegal immigration from 1939 through 1942 with the help of the Haganah. Those who arrived illegally to Israel during this time were part of the Aliyah bet. This was a dangerous operation, for these illegal immigrants arrived by boat and had to be careful not to be caught by the British or Nazis. Many of these ships sank or were caught, such as the Patria (Patra), Struma and SS Bulgaria. Compared to the number of attempts few ships actually arrived successfully to Palestine, but tens of thousands of Jews were saved by the illegal immigration.

The Yishuv also wanted to help on the front lines to try and save Jews from the Nazi atrocities. In 1942 the Jewish agency turned to the British to offer their assistance by sending Jewish volunteers to Europe as emissaries of the Yishuv to organize local resistance and rescue operations among the Jewish communities. The British accepted the proposal but on a much smaller scale than the Jewish agency had hoped. They only took Jewish parachutists who were recent immigrants from certain targeted countries that they wanted to infiltrate. The British Special Forces and military intelligence both consented to the volunteers' dual role as British agents and Jewish emissaries. 110 Yishuv members were trained; however only 32 were deployed. Many of them succeeded in helping the POWs and uprisings in the Jewish communities, while others were caught.

The Baltimore declaration
Despite the reports of Nazi atrocities growing and the desperation of Jews needing a safe haven the British kept the doors of Palestine closed to Jewish Immigration. The Zionist leaders met in a hotel in Baltimore and concluded that due to the British behavior, the British were an enemy to be fought.

Palestine post World War II
Hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors were being held in Displaced Persons Camp (DP Camps) aching to go to Palestine. The British received much international pressure, specifically from U.S. president Harry Truman, to change their policy on immigration. Despite Britain's dependence on American economic aid, the British refused, claiming that they were experiencing too much resistance from the Arabs and Jews already in Palestine and feared what would happen if more were allowed to enter. The refusal to remove the white paper policy angered and radicalized the Yishuv. The Yishuv's militia groups set out to sabotage the British infrastructure in Palestine and continue in their illegal immigration efforts. In 1946 the British responded to the Yishuv's efforts and began a two week search for Jews suspected of anti-British activities, arresting many of the Haganah's leaders. While the British were busy looking for the Haganah, the Irgun and Lehi carried out attacks on British forces. The most famous of their attacks was on the King David Hotel, the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. This location was chosen because a few weeks before a large quantity of documents was confiscated from the Haganah and brought there. Despite being warned by the Yishuv and told to evacuate the building the British officials decided not to listen, thereby resulting in British casualties. By 1947 the British had 100,000 troops in Palestine trying to maintain order and protect themselves. The British mandate was a major expense on the British, leading them to present the Palestine problem to the United Nations on May 15, 1947. The United Nations proposed a partition of Palestine into 2 states—Jewish and Arab (Resolution 181). The Jews accepted it, while the Arabs stated that they would do everything in their power to prevent it.

The AHC, determined to prevent Resolution 181 from coming into effect, began to attack and besiege the Jews. The British sided with the Arabs in an attempt to prevent the Yishuv from arming themselves. Jerusalem was held under a siege with no access to weapons, food or water. The Yishuv seemed helpless until it received a large shipment of arms from Czechoslovakia. The Haganah started fighting offensively from April through May. The Haganah mounted a full-scale operation, Operation Nachson. After much fighting and the crucial construction of a new road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the siege of Jerusalem was broken, allowing supplies to be brought to the city.

This operation's success helped Harry S. Truman recognize that the Jews would be able to protect themselves. Therefore the United States said it would support the establishment of a Jewish state. On May 14 1948 the Jews proclaimed the independent state of Israel and the British withdrew from Palestine. Despite having a Jewish state and an end to the British mandate, the Israelis were to face many more fights with the Arabs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariersa

www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322 [/URL]

Gosh, it's neutral Cambodia afaterall, it's an impossible arguement, I guess the solution is to move all of Isreal to Florida. Why continue to support an illegimate, ill-gotten state made from an agreement to provide a necessary amunnition component made between a Russian Zionist and those who required the component. Unfortunatently, Zionism is absolutely in control of modern Isreali politics. Yes, indeed ask the "originl Jews" those who still abide by their original books, those hasetics(sp) why aren't they in power, afterall they are the "true children". OH shyt, I forgot, they believe in just "loving" thine "neighbour" etc.

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Thank you for that link Marie. We can't really be surprised by what it tells us. The hand that offers to host negotiations, between countries in conflict, often tells the other hand to supply arms.

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Originally Posted by Canticle

LDD, you may think that you are neutral, but that is not how it always comes across.

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for crying out loud.... can you at least make one post to me..... not bits and pieces spread like shrapnel from a frag shell in a number of posts???? you may have a short attention span when it comes to multi posting, quoting everything you can in the thread, and boring us to death with you self proclaimed usage of the queens english etc.....but I do not

ok.... I am neutral, the way you think, puts a biased spin on my stance....as you tend to post a lot about your stance on propaganda and pro israelis and fundmentalist zionists....

if you have noticed, and i do doubt it, I steer clear of arguing about the past history of israel and gaza, and I am focusing mainly on the aid ships, the Israeli boarding of the ships...and the aid issue, which was what the thread was about......

most of my posts are more than one sentence, they contain info and understanding by me, in the form of a written opinion about the flotilla, the israeli boarding and the aid shipments in to gaza......

I have stated clearly that my opinions are not swayed by countries, as my opinion would be the same regardless if it was the us, canada, australia, hell even tibet boarding the aid flotilla.....

btw, you STILL have not provided any links as I asked for..... the links from sites you deem to not be using propaganda...... yet you still say others links are propaganda......

if other peoples sources of info is so wrong, please feel free to share yours.... as I have asked, 3 times now, and you have avoided addressing your failure to provide any

btw brother jack / canticle.... do you remember refering to your attendance at the spiritual church ( and your admittance that you do not really believe in the churchs stance ).... that would lead me to believe that you have a understanding of the bible ( I base that on your statements that you tried to teach adamkadmon about devinity )..... so I am gonna request that you share what the bible says about the children of israel.....

as I am pretty sure, that if you attend church and profess to have tried to teach others... that you would at least be able to assist in this matter.....

Thank you again, Marie. An interesting read and it shows how big a problem the Middle east is and how very difficult to ever obtain peace, there.

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

for crying out loud.... can you at least make one post to me..... not bits and pieces spread like shrapnel from a frag shell in a number of posts???? you may have a short attention span when it comes to multi posting, quoting everything you can in the thread, and boring us to death with you self proclaimed usage of the queens english etc.....but I do not

ok.... I am neutral, the way you think, puts a biased spin on my stance....as you tend to post a lot about your stance on propaganda and pro israelis and fundmentalist zionists....

if you have noticed, and i do doubt it, I steer clear of arguing about the past history of israel and gaza, and I am focusing mainly on the aid ships, the Israeli boarding of the ships...and the aid issue, which was what the thread was about......

most of my posts are more than one sentence, they contain info and understanding by me, in the form of a written opinion about the flotilla, the israeli boarding and the aid shipments in to gaza......

I have stated clearly that my opinions are not swayed by countries, as my opinion would be the same regardless if it was the us, canada, australia, hell even tibet boarding the aid flotilla.....

btw, you STILL have not provided any links as I asked for..... the links from sites you deem to not be using propaganda...... yet you still say others links are propaganda......

if other peoples sources of info is so wrong, please feel free to share yours.... as I have asked, 3 times now, and you have avoided addressing your failure to provide any

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LDD.....that is how you come over to me...sorry...but it is. I've said the links were Israeli propaganda. I haven't needed to provide any other new links.....others have done that and from fairly liberal sources.

Crossed this one also sort of con/pro/con/pro damnit why can't i find a simple answer to my question?? oh well, temper, temper folks

The shrewdness of the Zionist Israeli government is beyond imagination.

Israeli leaders have managed to outsmart the world in the way they conduct politics. One of their craftiest and most successful epics is the myth of Zionism as a positive ideology that has contributed to the preservation of Jewish nationalism and Jewish interests.

The argument is too simple, an ideology that resulted from mixing Fascist European teachings and Jewish racial supremacy with a light touch of early Zionist creatively and manipulation, can never be positive.

Although many don’t even dare to repeat the thought in their heads, save uttering it in public, the Zionist ideology is pure Jewish racial supremacy, not Jewish nationalism as some claim. What else would you call ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, and the alliance between the Israeli government and religious institutions to keep the Jewish race pure? Such purity is the ultimate and the most determining factor that distinguishes an Arab from a Jew in Israel, or a Jew from a more or less pure Jew.

It’s appalling that such blunt racism is dealt with so openly, as if it is just a normal affair that every nation has the right to embrace if it wishes. The endless debate on "who is a Jew?" which is often featured in the New York Times, and which occupies the time and efforts of Israelis in the government, media and religious institutions, is perceived as if it is merely innocent cultural dialogue.

How many Americans are going to be happy if they hear that the US government, churches and media are busy debating how can they keep the "white" race pure, and that every new immigrant to this country has to present a certificate proving that he is the descendant of a white family, otherwise he has no rights for citizenship, no rights for ownership, no rights at all.

In Israel, this has and will always be the case. Yet the aggravating double standards make many of us pass through this disturbing fact as if no harm was done.

The relations between the Zionist settlement in Palestine and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is an issue that was put forth repeatedly by the leading Zionist intellectuals since the coming about of the notorious movement.

No one can state it clearer than Prominent Israeli visionary Yeshaauahu Ben Porat. In 1972, Ben Porat was quoted by the daily Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharanot as saying, "There is no Zionist settlement, and there is no Jewish State, without displacing Arabs and without confiscating lands and fencing them off."

In 1973, David Hacohen, Israeli Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Knesset clarified that the issue of displacing Arabs was not simply meant to use Arab homes for Jewish immigrants from Europe during the WWII. The reason is much simpler. It’s simply because, "they are not human beings, they are not people, they are all Arabs."

The Israel government confirmed and adopted the racist principals of Zionism in 1950, when the Israeli Knesset passed the Law of Return.

The deceptive name is meant to generate an emotional reaction of an innocent like you, but the law has in reality given Jews from all over the world the right to go and live in Palestine with full citizenship privileges. On the other hand, it passed the Absentee Property Law, seizing the land and properties of Palestinian refugees who were expelled or forced to flee.

Understanding the shameful reality of present day Israel can be furthered by pondering this quote by the respected Jewish writer Uri Davis: It is "not only the Palestinian non-Jew who is excluded from his or her rights to an undisputed citizenship. Large categories of Jews are similarly excluded: Jewish bastards, Jewish persons born to non Jewish mothers, Jewish persons born to Jewish mothers who converted to another religion, and non-Jewish converted to Judaism by conservative or reform rabbis as only Jewish orthodox conversion procedures are recognized in Israel."

Despite all of the this, Western media still raves and even proudly praises the racism of Israel, dubbing it often as the "Jewish State". Those who "dare to speak out" against such vulgarity are rebuffed by the same media who is quick to unleash the ever successful strategy of Anti Semitism, a deceptive tactic that is meant to defer the world’s attention from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and the murderous campaign launched against them.

Thanks to the naivete planted in people’s minds by decades of media deception, and thanks to the intimidation and constant harassment of intellectuals and ordinary citizens who question Israel’s racism and brutality, not so many people question Israel’s policies.

What does anti-Semitism have to do with Israel’s human rights violations?

Aren’t Arabs and other nations Semitic as well? How can an Arab be anti Semitic? Anti himself?

Why is racism applauded in Israel and criticized elsewhere?

What sin have the Palestinian people committed to be driven out of their lands and "fenced off"?

Why is the American government funding an apartheid state like Israel?

Who is more deserving of American tax money: racist settlers equipped with automatic riffles chasing behind Palestinian children in Gaza’s refugee camps, or America’s poor, America’s welfare programs, disease research centers, and under-funded schools?

Doesn’t the Bible state, "blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be satisfied"?

Let the Quran, the Bible and the principals of truth and justice be your guide, not the endless lies of Zionism and Zionists, who are with no doubt, the worlds’ masters of deception.

But I won't change my mind, it's still an ill-legal State, apprently very well thought out.

Did someone say Appartheid?????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canticle

LDD.....that is how you come over to me...sorry...but it is. I've said the links were Israeli propaganda. I haven't needed to provide any other new links.....others have done that and from fairly liberal sources.

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so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

btw brother jack / canticle.... do you remember refering to your attendance at the spiritual church ( and your admittance that you do not really believe in the churchs stance ).... that would lead me to believe that you have a understanding of the bible ( I base that on your statements that you tried to teach adamkadmon about devinity )..... so I am gonna request that you share what the bible says about the children of israel.....

as I am pretty sure, that if you attend church and profess to have tried to teach others... that you would at least be able to assist in this matter.....

---

My name is Canticle. I have stated that I am a Christian Spiritualist and far more in the spiritual realm, than religious, these days. I have said that I have never had any time for the established Churches and many of their teachings. You will be aware that a Christian Spiritualist Church, is not part of what is classed, the established church.

I have never said that I do not believe in my church's stance (not that I am sure what you mean by that). If i did not feel comfortable and at ease within the community of my church, I would not have remained a member. I was a Christian, for over 30 years, before I joined any form of church. I stayed with that church, because of the people, not any doctrine it may have had.

Christian Spiritualists do not believe in witnessing their beliefs and individual Spiritualists, will see things very differently. We respect the personal belief or disbelief, of every human and consider that love is the most important thing, along with personal responsibility and the opportunity for every soul, or spirit to progress toward the light.

Adamkadmon43 has nothing to do with anything that I have written here. And please do not insult his intellect, for he is an extremely intelligent man and well read......far more well read than I.....When it comes to books about religionn he is exceptionally well read. I would never have needed to explain divinity or theology to him. He is bright enough to find out for himself.......with all the research he does. Nevertheless, this does not mean that a person knows, or understand everything. None of us can do that.

You may be getting confused with me saying, that I had had many discussions with him about my beliefs, which he does not share, nor would I expect him to. I haven't had to teach him anything. he understands things that many people would not be able to comprehend. I have tried to get him to be more accepting of why and what people believe and to not be so dogmatic. However, it is his choice, to come to his own conclusions about things. I am not his controller.

But LDD, I have never said, that I have tried to teach anyone, anything. I really don't understand where you get that from. I have been a Christian...my kind of Christianity, since I was 15, 40 years; so I was a christian before you were born. I have never had any life changing revelations, I am not a born again Christian and I was not brought up, within a family that attended church.

I may disapprove of the established churches and I was Christened in a Church of England church, but I have enough respevt for these institutions, that I would never misuse them. Hence, I was not married in church. To have done that would have been hypocritical and my three children have not been Christened. Again...I would not misuse the church. What they wish to believe, or not believe, is up to them. As long as they are decent people, that is all that matters.

I studied Religious Education and took examinations at 16 and had I not left school at 17.5 years, I would have taken another public examination and hopefully, have gone on to train as a teacher. I wanted to teach Religious Education. However, I did not and I am very glad, but I do wish I had studied theology and divinity at university......not because of any religious zeal...but because I find the subject fascinating.

When it comes to the Bible......I don't really know what you are trying to draw me into saying. The Bible, I believe, should not and was never meant to be taken literally. There is history, bunkum, inspiring words, daring do stories, war, adultery, murder, laws to allow for the control of a society, teaching and preaching. I take from it the inspirational words of a man called Jesus and the moving words to be found in places, such as Eccliastes. The original books of the Old Testament, were written over two thousand years ago. The Bible has been translated many times, mistranslated, changed deliberately and in translating, often misunderstood.

I don't believe that the Jews were a chosen nation of a god. A god, whom I do not believe in. I do not believe in a creator god, but I am not an atheist. My Christian beliefs are my own, personal belief and right from the word go, I called Jesus, the Son of Man, never the Son of God. I have never believed in a virgin birth, or that Judas betrayed Jesus, but was working with him, to procure an end he knew had to happen. He had to be a martyr. Guess what, I believe he died on the cross and there was no resurrection.....except a resurrectio in the hearts and minds of his followers, that they could go on, without him, teaching his words.

So, have you achieved what you set out to do. I doubt it. My belief is my own, just as yours is personal to you. I respect the belief and disbelief of others, do not believe in preaching and do not believe in trying to convert people. As we say in my church, ''If a person's belief or disbelief, sits well with them, then you leave well alone.'' OK.

In case you are unaware and would like more reading material, look up the Nag Hammadi Library on the Internet and read the Gospel of St Thomas. Also try the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. There are others. Most rejected at the Convention at Nicea, in the 5th century.....the church was still very young and needed to stay...''safe.''

You didn't succeed LDD.........I am far brighter than you imagine.

So, all you achieved, was to take the thread, totally off topic. Did you think that I would dig my own grave? Smiles......Sorry.....will never do that......for anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

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Oh, and what has Adamkadmon said? Have you been having a great discussion with him, about me. In what way is he vindicated? Do tell me? You speak as if you know the man, which you do not. Please enlighten me about his vindication.....I am fascinated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canticle

My name is Canticle. I have stated that I am a Christian Spiritualist and far more in the spiritual realm, than religious, these days. I have said that I have never had any time for the established Churches and many of their teachings. You will be aware that a Christian Spiritualist Church, is not part of what is classed, the established church.

I have never said that I do not believe in my church's stance (not that I am sure what you mean by that). If i did not feel comfortable and at ease within the community of my church, I would not have remained a member. I was a Christian, for over 30 years, before I joined any form of church. I stayed with that church, because of the people, not any doctrine it may have had.

Christian Spiritualists do not believe in witnessing their beliefs and individual Spiritualists, will see things very differently. We respect the personal belief or disbelief, of every human and consider that love is the most important thing, along with personal responsibility and the opportunity for every soul, or spirit to progress toward the light.

Adamkadmon43 has nothing to do with anything that I have written here. And please do not insult his intellect, for he is an extremely intelligent man and well read......far more well read than I.....When it comes to books about religionn he is exceptionally well read. I would never have needed to explain divinity or theology to him. He is bright enough to find out for himself.......with all the research he does. Nevertheless, this does not mean that a person knows, or understand everything. None of us can do that.

You may be getting confused with me saying, that I had had many discussions with him about my beliefs, which he does not share, nor would I expect him to. I haven't had to teach him anything. he understands things that many people would not be able to comprehend. I have tried to get him to be more accepting of why and what people believe and to not be so dogmatic. However, it is his choice, to come to his own conclusions about things. I am not his controller.

But LDD, I have never said, that I have tried to teach anyone, anything. I really don't understand where you get that from. I have been a Christian...my kind of Christianity, since I was 15, 40 years; so I was a christian before you were born. I have never had any life changing revelations, I am not a born again Christian and I was not brought up, within a family that attended church.

I may disapprove of the established churches and I was Christened in a Church of England church, but I have enough respevt for these institutions, that I would never misuse them. Hence, I was not married in church. To have done that would have been hypocritical and my three children have not been Christened. Again...I would not misuse the church. What they wish to believe, or not believe, is up to them. As long as they are decent people, that is all that matters.

I studied Religious Education and took examinations at 16 and had I not left school at 17.5 years, I would have taken another public examination and hopefully, have gone on to train as a teacher. I wanted to teach Religious Education. However, I did not and I am very glad, but I do wish I had studied theology and divinity at university......not because of any religious zeal...but because I find the subject fascinating.

When it comes to the Bible......I don't really know what you are trying to draw me into saying. The Bible, I believe, should not and was never meant to be taken literally. There is history, bunkum, inspiring words, daring do stories, war, adultery, murder, laws to allow for the control of a society, teaching and preaching. I take from it the inspirational words of a man called Jesus and the moving words to be found in places, such as Eccliastes. The original books of the Old Testament, were written over two thousand years ago. The Bible has been translated many times, mistranslated, changed deliberately and in translating, often misunderstood.

I don't believe that the Jews were a chosen nation of a god. A god, whom I do not believe in. I do not believe in a creator god, but I am not an atheist. My Christian beliefs are my own, personal belief and right from the word go, I called Jesus, the Son of Man, never the Son of God. I have never believed in a virgin birth, or that Judas betrayed Jesus, but was working with him, to procure an end he knew had to happen. He had to be a martyr. Guess what, I believe he died on the cross and there was no resurrection.....except a resurrectio in the hearts and minds of his followers, that they could go on, without him, teaching his words.

So, have you achieved what you set out to do. I doubt it. My belief is my own, just as yours is personal to you. I respect the belief and disbelief of others, do not believe in preaching and do not believe in trying to convert people. As we say in my church, ''If a person's belief or disbelief, sits well with them, then you leave well alone.'' OK.

In case you are unaware and would like more reading material, look up the Nag Hammadi Library on the Internet and read the Gospel of St Thomas. Also try the Gospel of Judas Iscariot and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. There are others. Most rejected at the Convention at Nicea, in the 5th century.....the church was still very young and needed to stay...''safe.''

You didn't succeed LDD.........I am far brighter than you imagine.

So, all you achieved, was to take the thread, totally off topic. Did you think that I would dig my own grave? Smiles......Sorry.....will never do that......for anyone.

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I was actually refering to the verses of the bible that refer to israels children and gods word to them...... cos if the bible is correct, its matching what we are seeing with israel currently.....

I was not trying to misdirect at all...... I was asking a simple question, the biblical stance in regards to gods chosen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

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''adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated''


What does this mean??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mariersa

www.thecambodianews.net/story/488322

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ok a few things.....

the ship could carry 300 containers not 989, it would have sunk (check maritime specs for the ship )

amnesty international admits that they can not find the other 680 containers they were never unloaded at ashdod port.....

so we have a overloaded ship that could not carry that many containers, sailing and offloading all its cargo, minus 680 containers ???
and the ship sailed on dec 20th and the greek government shit bricks over the ship and refused to allow it to sail into greek ports, and it disappeared for a few weeks when it turned off its transponder.......
and the only online reference to it, is in april ??? actually april the 1st....... ahhh thats april fools day as well, but it may be coincidence
why did NO news agencies pick up on any of this ????

Amnesty international usa

Mariersa - interresting articles.

Have I missed the entries which recount the following bits of information.

Balfour Declaration "...nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

The initial Arab reaction to the Balfour declaration was largely favorable or restrained, to the extent that many Arabs supported British war aims.

At the time, the population of Palestine was in the neighborhood of 670,000. Of these, the Jews numbered some 60,000. The Arabs thus constituted roughly 91 per cent of the population, while the Jews accounted for 9 per cent.

The British pointed out that the Balfour Declaration committed them to support a national home for the Jews in Palestine, not a Jewish state.

In the troubled and tangled history of the British Mandate in Palestine..... most historians of this period attribute to British policy a pro-Arab bias.

Still under the control of Britain, there was review of the mess in 1928 (already manifest) by Sir John Chancellor. He is recorded as saying in different arenas

"....What makes them (the Jews) difficult to deal with is that they are, regardless of the rights and feelings of others, very exacting in pressing their own claims. Even as a minority of the population of Palestine the Jews adopt towards the Arabs an attitude of arrogant superiority, which is hotly resented by the Arabs with their traditions of courtesy and good manners...."

(this reminiscent of Lord Curzon's initial reservations on the Balfour declarartion - "What is to become of the people of the country? . . . [The Arabs] and their forefathers have occupied the country for the best part of 1,500 years, and they own the soil. . . . They profess the Mohammedan faith. They will not be content either to be expropriated for Jewish immigrants or to act merely as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the latter")

"...The facts of the situation are that in the dire straits of the war, the British Government made promises to the Arabs and promises to the Jews which are inconsistent with one another and are incapable of fulfilment...."


The UK will stand in the corner, facing the wall, wearing a dunce cap.
They shall be joined by the USA for miscelaneous later and best intended actions e.g. those of ignoring earlier warnings.


Regardless - we live in hope..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong

so in simple terms, the answer is no.....while others can provide sites, and videos and news reports, you can not provide anything ..... while others actively research for info and explanations, you provide nothing then you tell others they are posting propaganda ????

adam kadmon was telling the truth..... he has been vindicated

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As you cannot tell me in what way, the above mentioned person has been vindicated and what about and what that person is supposed to have been telling the truth about, I will assume that there was nothing at all and this was done, purely to get me annoyed, or cause me to be rude or use foul language. I shall do none of these things, because I'm not like that and I don't lie and I don't try to mislead, unlike some people, I have had the misfortune to know.

If you want more videos, I shall try to find some, that are not on pro Israeli news networks. I saw no point, as so many had been posted. I did post some links, about something else......but the person was not interested in looking at those. Seems people just want to see, what they want to see. How sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Canticle

As you cannot tell me in what way, the above mentioned person has been vindicated and what about and what that person is supposed to have been telling the truth about, I will assume that there was nothing at all and this was done, purely to get me annoyed, or cause me to be rude or use foul language. I shall do none of these things, because I'm not like that and I don't lie and I don't try to mislead, unlike some people, I have had the misfortune to knowI

If you want more videos, I shall try to find some, that are not on pro Israeli news networks. I saw no point, as so many had been posted. I did post some links, about something else......but the person was not interested in looking at those. Seems people just want to see, what they want to see. How sad.

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I have asked you to provide links to sites and videos, that disapprove other videos and links as propaganda............ as you seem happy to claim its propaganda, yet I can not see any proof that it was created by israel as a means to hide anything..... in fact I am seeing the opposite... its protest / anti israel sites that are doing the propaganda.....

now I look forward to the sites that back up your stance and yes I will review them fully and research the info in them......

I also do find interesting, the sudden change in reactions, when its your questions not being answered, ..... but unlike you, I can provide a answer.... its in the bisexual.com forums between you and brotherjack and adam..... happy reading....

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Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2

You are wrong. Each and every statement in this post is wrong, both individually, and when taken as a whole (even the rhetorical statement). In fact, I didn't think anyone could be more wrong than Canticle usually is, and yet, you succeeded. Yay You!

Pasa

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Just how long did the Nazis wait until they started seriously the job of exterminating the Jews and all those others they didnt like? And that was a nation on something like 70 million, and only really began iit while there was a full scale war on to distract attention from them.. Israel is a nation of some 4 million and it knows, as did Nazi Germany and Hitler that to do anything like that when there is a nominal peace in the world would not be allowed by the international community.. I am not saying they would do it as did the Nazis.. but if they did such would be the wrath of the world that the oppression they felt and the near extermination after Rome crushed the Jewish Revolt and the Jews dispersed would be as nothing compared to the reacation of the world.. the United States would abandon them in a minute or they themselves would be branded Nazi.. and without the United States they would not dare use nuclear weapons and without those, and by the reaction of the rest of the world they as a state have a very limited life..

I suggest you shut up about how long Israel would take to annihilate the Palestinians.. for quite simply they would not dare..