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Think? How can commenting that some of the things you have posted, seem less than Christian in their approach, be telling you what to think. You talk a lot about your faith. As a Christian, myself, some of your comments seem to me, to be at odds with what one should feel, toward ones fellow humans. That is what I pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
I did read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
''Military experience gives one the ability to look at an after action video and actually know what the hell is being shown.''Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Of course, to be able to do this, in a perfectly neutral manner, the video footage seen, needs to be complete, undoctored or edited and where there are more than one video available, all would need to be viewed. then and only then, could a totally unbiased assessment be made...and even then...one could not be sure that what was seen, actually took place, exactly as shown.
LDD....Post 507......talk to the hand.......I am fully aware of all that you posted. I very rarely believe anything I see....and I certainly wouldn't believe video footage released by the Israelis.....or some of her allies. LDD, at times, I do find your tone, extremely patronising. You may not mean it as it comes across.....however...that is how it comes across.
I'm going to annoy someone......what the heck!!!! Well said Heph!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
Hamas attacking an aid convoy? No such thing as ms-information by accident or design? One is a goof the other is being sucked in (and videoed by accident?); very common place, from office politics to continental invasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
People acting like terrosits and suicide bombers by strutting up and down and looking fearsome? All that could be discerned on the vidoes seen was a lot of innocent people scared out of their minds and praying to their god in the face of adversity. The odd reassuring embrace between humans facing the unkown - very dangerous! Of course, Israelis are known for their generosity and understanding when they appear at night armed to the teeth as was demonstrated.
Videos faked? Some have been. Others very unlikely.
The entire flotilla incident was an Israeli PR disaster and they keep digging.
.
1) standard procedure..... trained professionals will be at ease at nighttime, but untrained civilians / protestors will not be as co ordinated....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
there is also the possibility of closeness to the blockade line and it may have been a last minute action
2) to talk yes .... but they continued to sail forward....
they were asked to stop repeatedly and warned before they set sail, not to try and break the blockade..... how much more time did they need ????? another week ????
3) ahh I will argue that.... they fired across the bow, not at the ships, there is no footage showing any bullet impact marks on the ships.... I would expect that at least if shots were fired at the ships....
4) agreed and leave paint marks a bit like the * blood * that a journalist saw... that apparently turned out to be paint......
using paint balls would have been a way to turn and distract people and drive them back from the rappeling soliders....
btw thats not proven as what happened, but it would make sense and it can match the reports of shoots fired at the ship and paint on the rails....
but that would prove it was paintballs and not bullets that were fired at the ships
5) some of the protestors themselves made statements about that.... not the israelis, but the passengers on the ships... I am too lazy to look up the links again... but I recall the statements by protestors made within 2 days of the event, refering to the fact that the turkish protestors that attacked the soliders, never boarded at the same port the aid was loaded at, they boarded later at another port
6) how..... how would you stop them.... without disabling the ships....and risking everybody on body....
7) thats not disputed... the israelis boarded the ships, agreed...... but protestors using hostile force against soldiers is not a normal aspect of protestors or peaceful protest, its normally done by activists and extreme activists, not human aid protestors....
7) you put 7 twice.... but yes, loudhailers could be used... it doesn't mean that people will listen..... might makes right, a large loaded ship is not easy to stop and using loudhailers will not work that well when stopping ships, unless the captain gives the order to stop ship
8) nothing was found on board.... so the protestors had nothing to fear or hide...... yet they avoided stopping for a inspection
by defination would that give me the right to ignore police and fail to stop cos I have nothing to hide
9) nothing.... same as the protesters.... but I tend to think that you are like me...... not everything that is investigated, means that the truth is revealed either.....
people want to hear is that israel was wrong.....
not that the protesters acted in any manner that was wrong under the international aid laws that protected them..... but that israel was wrong...
and we both know that there will be a number of people not happy with any findings and rulings that find one or the other or both groups at fault.....
I say that if the ships had gone to port and being inspected, none of this would have happened, .... going to port may be right or wrong in peoples eyes.... but its a simple case of the deaths could have been avoided.....by a simple action.....
let the governments fight over if the blockade is legal or not.... the mission was to deliever aid to gaza and it would have got there without loss of life
yeah it could be misinformation..... but hey.. that would mean that every news source and video etc that people are linking to, watching, commenting on etc.... is mis information....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestion
I mean I could be conned, it could be israeli commandoes sneaking into the gaza strip with rpgs and firing upon convoys in broad daylight, and not being detected at all by any other person in the gaza strip.....
but hang on a sec, I thought that the israelis only do night time attacks on unarmed, innocent protestors that are playing the drums with metal bars on ships that are lost at sea and not trying to break thru blockades....
sighs.... dammit, I am being conned so much.....
the protestors were not hitting the soldiers with bars, they were hugging them and offering to show them the lower decks the fast way.... and the blood was from the tomato sauce on the fish and chips
damm CNN and the other news sources for conning me so badly...... I now realise that there was no transport ships either, they were actually sail boats with nude blondes on board sharing drinks and cigars with bill Clinton
I may be sceptical.... but I am no idiot.....
reliable info such as the aid arranged by a pro islamic group with links to terrorist movements, is the first clue that something was up with the shipment...
700 protestors on a ship... how many of them were needed to unload it ????
media / reporters on board a mission aid ship..... yes I can support that and understand it...... but ahhhh why so many this time.... when most times there is a handful......
unless there is going to be a large media worthy event..... like the breaking of a blockade and the berthing in gaza of the ships ????
that is stuff that was going on, BEFORE the incident, that would indicate that something was going on... and had to have been arranged BEFORE the ships even sailed
America was a terrorist during the Bush years? *chokes on coffee* Honestly, Tenni, go look at the crater where the World Trade Center stood. Go watch United Flight 93. Go fuck yourself. There I said it, have a nice day.
Now, Canticle. I'll say what you are ignoring from everyone else. When it comes to military operations civilians don't know shit and can only spout what every other tom, dick or harry with a band of ribbons that retired during the Reagan years they can get on tv to say any soundbite.
Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.
Fact: Aid goes to Gaza from Israel.
Fact: AID GOES TO GAZA FROM ISRAEL.
Okay maybe you'll get that through your thick skull now. Aid is being given daily to the people in the Gaza Strip by the country you think is so detestable. Aid is being rejected by Hamas because it is delivered by Israel. They would rather babies starve than let the aid be used. They have attacked an Aid ship coming in because it was cleared. Why sink it? I mean they only had need of clothes and food and medical supplies... oh yeah nothing on there for Hamas, no rockets, no guns, no ammo, no Fatah members to slice up into steaks.
no there doesn't....... pasadenacpl was refering to people that understand military action.... not arm chair criticsQuote:
Originally Posted by Canticle
a person with military experience can look at one video and know, from experience and with great certainity, what orders were issued, what the mission parameters are, what the objective is, under what circumstances is non lethal and lethal force to be used....
what actions to take once on board, the purpose of being on board, who deals with what, how and why
why what weapons were used etc.....
arm chair critics can only quess, so need all the videos available, and so they can argue propaganda, editing, biased views etc....
so once again..... you prove my point,.... there are things that people with military backgrounds, understand better than non com civilians.....
the boarding of the ship is one of them.....
btw.... your hand needs washing, my dear, I am not talking to a hand with skidmarks on it
I missed this the first time through.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
First, we were not, and are not terrorists. We went to war. War has unintended casualities, but we don't target, purposefully, civilian targets, nor do we use EIDs, nor do we fire rockets into shopping centers, send our men to be homicide bombers, or any other terrorist activities. When our men and women went beyond the scope of their mission parameters, they were punished.
Second, I'm getting about tired of your tirades against the US. Shut your cockholster. This isn't an international website. It's housed right here in the US. That you decide to come here is great. But don't you for an instant think this is anything but good old American.
No, I don't care about civility any longer. You want to call the men and women who serve in our armed forces terrorists, you get what's coming to you. And, Tenni, be glad you are safe and secure behind your monitor. If you'd said that in my presence, the very least you would have received would be a rosy red hand print on your face. More likely, a gurney would have been required. I'm betting that you don't have the courage to say anything like that to a real live human being.
Notice to everyone: Lay off the attacks on the US. I don't attack your nation, nor does anyone else. But you seem to think the US is fair game. It's not. You want civility? Then you had better be willing to stop the attacks. If not, be prepared for me to start getting it back in spades.
I will not be civil. I will not be nice. I will not be polite. As long as you make spurious attacks on my nation, and on the men and women who provide you your freedom (and yes, Tenni, we provide Canada's security), I will be as uncivil as I can muster.
Pasa
..and u succeed in being very uncivil very well indeed, Pasa.. the military by its very nature is a terror organisation.. all militaries of all nations.. that which belongs to my own is no different as the report on Bloody Sunday proves.. whether that makes a nation terrorist is debatable, but as pacifist who has preached non violence all of her adult life and most of her childhood I believe it to be so.. militaries of all nations try to avoid collateral damage and killing and maiming civilians only so long as it suits their purpose.. what you call terrorist groups such as Al Quaeda are little different.. they sacrifice young men and women in the name of a cause as indeed does a military and kill anyone who gets in its way.. the cause may differ but the result is still death and the maiming of many innocents.. I don't expect you to like what I say but that is what it is all about..
..and you have attacked other nations Pasa dont tell fibs...mine for one.. and by definition every other nation which takes issue with any US government dictat.. but its ok if you believe them wrong.. we are grown ups.. well most of us are..
..and the site is actually based in Canada.. such a little thing to pull you up on.. but it is open to all people the world over and makes it therefore international.. another such little thing..
Fran, there is a large difference in military going after military targets with unintended civilian deaths and the terrorist groups like Al Queda that target non military targets to cause the most destruction and let's face it terror. Or do you really think that a 2 year old on a plane that went down in the Pennsylvania field deserves to be called collateral damage?
And since everyone seems to love pointing fingers at America for responding to terror in a way you don't agree with. Let me share you a video that Daryl Worley put out that pretty much sums up American feelings for the most part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6yLQRF-cEU
The war has went on too long over there and we are tired, we want our boys home. We want the Gaza problem solved, a two state solution. But no...Hamas won't hear of that. They want to wipe Israel off the map. Get over it. Israel is there to stay, terrorists come and go in regimes across the world but the nation of Israel has maintained their humanity more than anyone gives them credit. They could simply blockade Gaza and not transport ANY relief. Soon starvataion would deal with the problem, but they are sending them supplies to make sure innocents don't suffer. But when activists go beyond just supplying aid and begin supplying weapons and instigating international incidents then activists have dipped into the terrorist playbook and become terrorists themselves. Such as the one who screamed at the Israeli commander over the radio "Go back to Auschwitz".
I struggled with your post, fran, and the truth in your words.....Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeyes
tho I am a trained soldier and yes, I was trained to end human lives, I struggle with the idea that I am / was a terrorist.....
but I do accept and understand what you are saying, is not intended to be a insult or malicious
there are times that we are needed to be terrorists, ie against the germans in ww2 etc.... and times that we should have not been terrorists, IE bloody sunday.....
but at the end of the day, we are trained to take human lives, in pretty much the same way that terrorists do the same thing.... merely the reasoning is different.....
however, I will defend the doctors and nurses of the military and the chefs, engineers etc that are not combat personnel in the military, that serve a non destructive purpose....
do I struggle at times with the knowledge that I willingly trained to become a person that would fight against another person who would use the same type of thinking that I have, * kill or be killed * ?
yes, I struggle at times with the knowledge that I can and will take a human life without blinking or feeling emotion or sympathy....
but in my defense, I have the choice of pulling the trigger.... and that is what makes the difference between me and a terrorist.....
I will not end a human life to further a cause ...but end a human life to save others .......
it makes me no better and no worse than a pacifist..... it merely makes me a person that risks my life so a pacifist will never have to.....
hugs fran.... btw, welcome back, hope ya time away was good
I will not rehash the entire US terrorism of Iraq and others: the US shooting killings of women and children at check points that terrorized Iraqis for months after the US illegal/immoral invasion of Iraq, the kidnapping of people outside the US territory by US CIA etc., terrorizing of such kidnapped victims and torturing of these people either by US people or farming out the torture and terrorizing to known societies that use torture. The violation of the Geneva Conventions redoing them to suit the interests and needs of the Bush regime.
Scream all you want DD, Pasa and other US persons but know that your country is seen as a terrorist state by some in the world for the actions of your terrorist Bush government. All of your denial will not change that perception. Couch your statements with this awareness and stop the nonsense of pretending to be innocent and a "just" society. Hammas was a terrorist organization. Some call Gaza a terrorist state now that Hammas is the government. The US was a terrorist state under Bush. Whether the Hammas government of Gaza is a terrorist state, I don't know for sure due to all the various perspectives. Is Israel terrorizing Gaza now? It may be seen that way by some. Israel is wrong to block material that the Gazans need to rebuild what Israel destroyed in last year's Israeli attacks on Gaza. The UN states what are humanitarian supplies and needs and this list does not match Israel's list of what is humanitarian. The Israel list of blocking such items as school supplies, wheelchairs, computers, toys, cement, etc. Cement and steel are mentioned as material that Israel will not let in to Gaza. The suspected Israeli propoganda video ignores this fact. Both were on the UN list of humanitarian aid material. Steel and raw materials are needed to rebuild Gaza's factories or have the factories function so that Gazans may work to get their economy functioning are blocked. Whether this is humanitarian or not I'm not sure. It certainly seems punitive on Israel's part to prevent Gaza from functioning.
I woke this morning to read that Israel senior cabinet ministers are meeting to consider reducing the types of items that Israel will permit in to Gaza. This is due to the international outcry over the murder of civilians on these ships. Here is a quote from the Globe and Mail.
"The Haaretz newspaper on Wednesday quoted international envoy Tony Blair as hailing the expected vote by the Israeli ministers.
“It will allow us to keep weapons and weapon materials out of Gaza, but on the other hand to help the Palestinian population there,” Mr. Blair was quoted as saying. “The policy in Gaza should be to isolate the extremists but to help the people”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1605808/
Blair represents the Quartet of Mideast negotiators — the U.S., European Union, U.N. and Russia. The fact that he can not just represents the UN but needs the weight of these other political forces shows you what a mess the world is in on one hand but strength of this quartet that Israel is wrong and needs to change its behaviour.
The first casualty of war is truth!
Arthur Ponsonby
That may also apply to acts of terrorism regardless of the terrorist organization or terrorist state.Quote:
Originally Posted by DareMe
Why thank you Sweetheart for your luffly welcome back.. did have a luffly time in the big smoke tyvm and apart from 16 15 and 16 yo's trying my pacifism at times it was fun.. although trying to keep my big gob shut as the coach zoomed past Buck House and along the Mall past Downing Street was indeed a test of the Fran will.. can't have me indoctrinating the children now can we? Although one lad made me smile as he referred to the Queen as a "parasitical old bag" and Cameron as a f****** Tory bastard".. I left it to another to bollock him... someone more in keeping with the establishment view..;) A very astute young man for whom I hold out great hope is the boy..:tong:Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
Whether we are better or worse than each other is a long and sometimes tortuous debate.. mostly I just consider it that people of my view and those more in keeping with yours just have different views. There is a valid argument for armed defence.. I simply just don't accept it for one minute.. if I may turn your statement on its head.. pacifism teaches that armed struggle would not be necessary if only we could discuss our problems and come to agreement.. good will and a preparedness to settle a dispute is needed, and that is far better than resorting to armed conflict.. so my way involves avoiding the need for people to take up arms therefore it can be argued that my way saves yours as much as yours may save mine.. that it doesnt happen is down to powerful vested interests and greedy getts who are quite happy to send as many young men and women into a conflict to promote and defend their interests.. it is a pursuit of power and its retention.. thats what war is all about.. not saving your or my way of life..its about saving and furthering theirs.. and to hell with us..
I dont differentiate between types of military personnel.. medics are there to save the lives primarily of their soldiers and get them returned to combat asap.. engineers to do what is necessary for the military to get its job done.. both in the end result in loss of life.. yes medics and engineers often do great things for other people who are not military..often even for those considered an enemy.. and for that they should always be applauded.. as should the ordinary squaddie who digs people out from under the rubble in some humanitarian crisis or other.. but in the end all are there to enable their side to win a war whether that war be against an internal or external foe.. that is their primary purpose.. and no I dont say it out of a sense of being malicious.. I say it with the greatest of sadness and regret as a I say anything about anything in which I believe.. with regard to the military and warfare, I just think things could be done much better than by fighting and killing, and the resources spent in much more socially acceptable ways for the betterment of all of humanity not for its destruction and for the benefit of but a few selfish and greedy powerful people ..
Now what do I call you? Twyla? DD naaa Darling will have to do.. sounds most appropriate..:tong:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
I'm tired of war too Twyla.. of death and destruction and knowing my country, which supports yours in most things terror, and is every bit as much involved as your own.. and has endured what people refer to as terrorism a hell of a lot longer. I have said Israel exists..and has the right to exist.. I have never uttered a word that it should not be allowed to exist in peace with its neighbours and with all other nations and peoples in the international community.. the difference between us is that I understand the frustration of a people who are oppressed, blockaded and bombed.. Hamas are no better than Israel.. but when a people is so downtrodden and crushed as Palestinians have been it is unsurprising that they turn to someone who offers them hope.. and often turn to them and act violently on their behalf.. Israelis see things essentially from the perspective of their government.. and is it therefore surprising that Palestinians do the same from theirs? Especially as Israel has the prosperity, the armaments and the most powerful nation on earth in its corner.. a nation as Tenni rightly observes is believed by many to itself be a terrorist state and does not play the honest broker..
A friend of mine recently said I am as dishonest as the US as I am a supporter of the Palestinians at the expense of Israelis.. it is essentially true.. whether it is dishonest or not I would and did take issue.. for it is not Israelis who are struggling for their everyday survival, who are blockaded and have a regional superpower oppressing them.. were the boot on the other foot, and it was Israelis who lived under the conditions in which Gazan Palestinians do and Palestinians treated them as Israelis treat Gazans now, then my sympathies would be in quite another quarter.. but the boot isn't on the other foot is it, Darling? Therefore I can do nothing other than believe, think, act and sympathise as I do now..
DD
Trying to use the 9/11 card and the poor victims of 9/11 without admitting the errors of your own country's actions that in part caused the terrorists to act, is just plain foolish....(insert stronger word..lol) Your country's reaction and terrorist actions were not justified nor morally appropriate ..after a certain point in time. This also applies to both sides in the mid east.
It wears thin with me and I was horrified when 9/11 happened. My heart went out to your people and my own country citizens who died there probably more than it goes out to the Iraqi and Palestinian. Why? I saw it right in my face on TV. We do not see nor even hear about how difficult it is to live in Gaza under the conditions that they exist. Darkeyes is correct in stating that the Israelis live a much better quality of life but they too still live with terror. Both sides have wronged each other.
Open your mind a bit more. You are a bright woman and frequently show yourself to be aware of many errors of your society. Stop the blindly accepting the propaganda brainwashing that you are exposed to. Otherwise, we are no better than those Palestinians etc. who cry for Israel's destruction from the face of the Earth.
It's a god thing Tenni, that you and I will never meet. Not that you would say such things to an American vet's face. I'm betting that you are as much of a coward as the desrters you took in. I'm sure you are not willing to stand and accept the consequences for callimg US soldiers terrorists. Even more, I'm betting you don't have the backbone to say it to a soldier's wife. You tell her that he's a terrorist, better make sure you do it in front of their sons and daughters too. But no, I'm betting that you are gutless.
Good thing to that you don't represent anything more than the tinfoil hat crowd in your nation. You and the traitors must get along pretty well.
Again, shut your cockholster. Pretty much going to be the reponse you earn from now on.
Pasa
My skull in neither thick, nor thin and my intellect is sufficient enough, that I do not watch any video, or news report, or read any newpaper and decide that what I am seeing, hearing, or reading, is necessarily correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
How are you so certain that Israel is supplying all this aid to Gaza and on a daily basis? Where do you get your information, that so obviously convinces you of this fact.
Do the people of Gaza merely need clothes and food and medical supplies and other items (no doubt), to make life bearable and comfortable. That makes them sound like a small child, which should be grateful for everything, the beneficial and more powerful, parent figure, dishes out to them.
I do not detest Israel. Why do you try to put words in to mouths, when they have not been uttered.
What comes over to me is this DD....and I may be totally wrong. You appear to believe any news or propaganda, whether it be from your own government, the Israel government, or their fast and firm friends. Your comment upon the sevent minute video, which the link for, was posted earlier in this thread, leads me to think this. I watched that video carefully and it was pure Israeli propaganda from the beginning.
You seem to think that if people do not approve of what the state of Israel may do, that this means they detest the State of Israel. This is not so. One can be critical, severely critical, without having any hatred in ones heart.
I know that as far as Israel and it's people are concerned, I have a clear conscience, about how I feel about that country. It exists and all countries should recognise it as such. Islam, Judaism and Christianity, all have their roots in the Middle East and the land is special and sacred to all of those religions, but more importantly, to the indigenous population.
One day there may be peace, but that peace cannot be achieved by considering the feelings and beliefs, of just one nation, or people. Israel is not the great peacemaker, that I think you believe it to be. Israel can be as bloody minded as any of the countries in the region and has an ego to match that bloodymindedness. Is that a good or bad thing? Good in some ways....helps with survival. Bad in others.....because arrogance does not garner friendship.
One day, maybe the people and governments of the area, will realise that they have more in common, than they have not. When that day will be...who knows? Until then, there will be conflict and people will suffer, on both sides.
Islamic countries need to recognise Israel. Palestinian people, who were displaced from their land, need a homeland too. Israel needs to get the chip off it's shoulder, know that land is just that....land. That it was never meant to be their's and their's alone and there is no chosen nation. We are all.....every single human being upon this planet....chosen people....meaning we are all as important as one another.
Don't tell me I detest Israel, because you have absilutely no idea of the different views I have and for me, the land of that part of the world, has meant a great deal, both faith wise and spirituality wise, for the past 40 years.
LDD Post 518
No skidmarks upon my hands. Always very clean. A light wash and rinse is all they ever need. No need to scrub and rub grime and odour from them. Never has been that need.
DD 521....
' But when activists go beyond just supplying aid and begin supplying weapons and instigating international incidents then activists have dipped into the terrorist playbook and become terrorists themselves. Such as the one who screamed at the Israeli commander over the radio "Go back to Auschwitz". '
So you did believe that video?
You didn't stop to consider that this may have been faked, for propaganda purposes? You didn't wonder why the Israeli officer on his ship, was so very coveniently filmed, talking to the aid ship?
How can you just accept that the video was truth and not a propaganda exercise, carefully edited?
Pasa..Post 519
''Second, I'm getting about tired of your tirades against the US. Shut your cockholster. This isn't an international website. It's housed right here in the US. That you decide to come here is great. But don't you for an instant think this is anything but good old American.''
How rude, vulgar, amazing inward looking and also, as Fran pointed out, how very wrong you are.
Pasa, it has become obvious that you are not the sort of person, many here, would like to meet, with your verbally violent attacks upon people and even hinting what you would do, if certain things were said to you, face to face. I doubt that you would do those things. People who say that sort of thing, rarely do, when given the opportunity.
The world does not end at the USA borders and the USA does not own the world. Your country has made big mistakes, just as any of the powerful countries, over the centuries, have done.
It always dismays me, when trying to have some kind of intelligent conversation with Americans, that the minute your country is criticised, you revert to insults and usually very immature ones.
The usual ones are ''We kicked your ass in 1776,'' which then leads to a long debate about fighting a war, at a great distance, at a time when it took weeks to get supplies to different parts of the world.
Or the remark which we have already had in this thread ''If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German.'' or the incredibly immature remarks about British dental treatment. I do sometimes wonder, where people get there information from.
One person......who I know very well and consider to be one of the most intelligent people I have ever encountered, actually though that the British Monarch told the Prime Minister what to do.
When one encounters people from your country with views like this and other views and ideas, which they have just accepted as truth or the way things are in the world and these people, do not appear to have open minds or even want to know what goes on elsewhere in the world, then we people from other parts of the globe, get to feel that everyone in the USA thinks like this, which is not true. We know it's not, but this is what comes across.
I would not go as far as what tenni said, but I would say that many countries in the world, do see the USA as a terrorist state, whether or not they are correct. The USA is also seen as bent on imperialism. This is not a fairy story, but the truth of how your country is seen.
Things do not bode well, for any people, if they cannot be self critical of themselves and their nation and also accept and try to understand the criticism from other people and countries.
Your country isn't perfect or the greatest........no country is.....all have their faults.....and arrogance and a big ego.....whatever the country....do not go down well with other nations and organisations.
You have a beautiful country and one which has a diverse population, culturally, racially. There are many good things about the USA, but like all countries, there are things which are not so good. try to realise that and not become so protective.
hugs Fran, I don't believe Israel should just wipe the Gazans out, I believe in the two state solution. The problem is that when you keep offering a helping hand to the citizens of Gaza you are in danger of getting it bit off by Hamas. The things going through to Gaza must be monitored so that they can survive as a people but not continue using rockets on the people of Israel.
And yes, Canticle, I believe the video for the most part as it matches damned near every other video out there. We have all seen the video of the soldiers being attacked, we have all seen the video of the protesters arming themselves with iron bars and knives. Open your eyes, it's a fact. The protesters took the step that moved them from activists to terrorists.
The simple truth is, no matter how much you try to deny it Canticle, aid is going into Gaze from Israel. And for their pains the Hamas government randomly has bombs at checkpoints. But they don't shirk their duty, they continue daily to deliver aid that the innocents need.
Now is the time for the Gazan people to tell Hamas they want Gilad Shalit set free, they want the rocket attacks to stop, they want to live in the two state solution. That will never happen as long as Hamas maintains power, and they will maintain it through the blood of Gazans who oppose them. No matter how many innocent people suffer on either side, Hamas only sees them as traitors to the Jihad cause.
Fran and Tenni
Thank you for your posts. I do not agree with either of you....entirely.....but for the most part....I do.
Unlike you, Fran, I am not a pacifist. However, like you, I always hope that things can be sorted out and agreements come to, without the need for military action. For with military action, there are going to be casualties, both in the forces and with civilian deaths.
I find it tragic that the Middle East should be in the state it is, when so much has come from that part of the world, which had it not been for so many highly intelligent people, so many centuries ago, our world might be very different today.
How many people remember that there were scientists and mathematicians in the Arab countries striving to discover things. That the art and culture of Islam, left it's mark upon Europe and not in a bad way.
It has enriched us culturally.
It is sad that all the things we have in common, with one another, are forgotten in war and political and social unrest. War and terrorist attacks destroy and although there may sometimes be a very necessary reason to go to war, ultimately there are no winners.
Tenni.......I would not call the USA a terrorist state, I think that is going too far, but I do understand where you are coming from and appreciate what you were trying to say.
When it comes to September 11th 2001 (I don't like the dramatic 9/11 usage), I believe that day and what happened to so many people, has to be remembered and remembered for exactly what it was, The biggest terrorist attack on a country and killing so many civilians. Not just Americans.....but people from all points of the globe, races, creed, colour.
It was a terrible day, but other terrible things have happened upon that date, and during recent time. One event leading to the deaths of many more people, than died in the twin towers.
However all death and caused to innocent people is abominable and we have to remember this.
I would agree with you, that certain events, no matter which, cannot always be used and used again, as an excuse for war.....or in the case of Hammas or Al Queda.....terrorist attacks. And a country, which has only recently, begun to experience terrorism, in it's own yard, has to remember, that many other countries have been experiencing terrorism for decades.
That is why I find patriotic songs, rather distasteful and also the glorification of the military. Having countless people, on certain days, posting, in chat rooms (not here), ''God Bless the troops'' etc, over and over again, I do read as showing respect, but showing a militaristic side to a culture and one that leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
I honour the dead and fallen, military and civilian in a quiet and dignified manner. This is the way of my country and to me, it is the quiet rememberance, which seems more genuine. It allows for reflection and rememberance of all who suffer. Like the MP husband, of a young woman at my church, literally hacked to death, in Iraq. Or recently, a young man who was at school with my sons, dying in Afghanistan. The whole town, where his funeral was held, came to a standstill, to show it's respect.
I do not understand, why some people in certain lands think that wars that cannot be won, are being fought for their freedom. These wars, which cannot be won, just take the lives of youg men and women, in the forces and cause many more deaths among civilian populations and destroy the countries....which then have to be rebuilt.
I hope, that one day, peace will come, to the Middle East and to other parts of the world, but it has to be realised, that in most cases, the battles fought, will not cause true peace to come about.
And Tenni, yes I am well aware the US isn't perfect, but to call us a terrorist state under Bush was a bit far. There is a huge difference in a war targeting military areas and hijacking planes to send into civilian targets and setting bombs to kill as many innocents as you can find. Soldiers don't target civilians, but sometimes civilians do die. Any soldier in Iraq that went over the line was punished. Many Americans still want something done about Gitmo. But that isn't what this thread is about although you opened that door.
This thread is about Israel/Gaza and the hopeless tangle of a situation there that everyone seems to want to stick their fingers in without offering any real solutions. The flotilla was designed to be an attack, not a rescue. Many independent sources have cited the preperations and the attack on the soliders was premeditated. Not only premeditated but planned. They knew by ignoring the request to go to Ashdod that Israel would have to act. They wanted Israel to act so the world would scream OMG look at what they did. The fact remains they broke international law and want to be glorified for doing so. Nope, when they caused the deaths of 9 people, the injury of 27 more and the injuries of 7 soldiers...they don't care about the innocents in Gaza, they only care about making a political point. So you can point fingers at Israel all day long but you have to admit the activists bear the brunt of the responsibility for this incident. At a number of times they could have just docked and had the aid transferred to Gaza. They chose not to do so and it cost lives. So literally blood is on the hands of the organizers of the Flotilla, I really hope they sleep well at night.
I watched the video. I saw very deliberate propaganda and I believe that probably most of what you would call videos showing the truth are doctored propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
I don't accept that the activists crossed the line and became terrorists, but then I don't have your great belief in the Israeli military, as being the ones in the right.
How are you so sure that all this aid is being delivered, by these diligent Israelis? Where do you get your concrete information from? Which news agencies and media, do you believe?
It's amazing how much trouble the Israeli's have always gone to, to retrieve one or two soldiers. They have even been known to bomb places to bits, to retrieve one person. That...to me....shows a certain fanaticism.
Desperate and frightened people have every right to defend themselves in any manner, if they are feeling scared for their lives.
What would your opinion be, if a group of Jewish humanitarian activists, critical of Israel and how Israel behaves, decided to break through this blockade.
Would it be OK for them to defend themselves against Israeli troops landing upon their ship. Or do you think that because they would be Jewish activists, they would automatically co-operate with Israeli demands.
Something to think about.
I really cannot see how anyone could see that video, for anything other than it was.....cheap and rather vile propaganda.
By the way......google Mordechai Vanunu. israel doesn't treat it's own, who become dissidents, very well.