How very oddQuote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
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How very oddQuote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
Umm...who threatened you.....certainly not me! I guess it's Ok for you to call someone a racist and also anti-semitic. You have no idea what my race is, or my religion (at least a religion, which would be associated with my family). Your childish one liner, at the end of this post says it all...at least it does for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
I could report you for calling me a racist and anti-semitic, for that is a slur upon my character, but I shall not, because I believe you have the right to call me those vile titles, which are not true. I think that I can leave the rest of the good people, upon the site, to gauge from my many posts, that I am in no way racist, anti-semitic, nor am I intolerant of other religions or other belief systems, whatever they may be.
I may not agree with them, but I would defend the individual's or a group's right to exist, how he/she/they wish and without persecution, torture, death, discrimination etc, etc, etc.
I started out, as a Christian, 40 years ago and the spiritual journey never ends....it changes....takes a slightly different pathway....but it never ends and it allows one freedom of thought and freedom of the mind, heart and soul
US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Correlation is a dangerous tool. Using correlation, one can show that there is an inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
Pasa
Pasa, as usual, your reply is right on the money. When you ask if Israel has a right to blockade in international waters, let me remind you all of history. In the 60's the US blockaded Cuba, when the Soviet Union was building missle installations there. The US Navy stopped and boarded Soviet ships and the UN and the world did not seem to have a problem. The feeling then was that the US had a right to defend itself from weapons only 90 miled from its border. How is the situation in Gaza any different? The Israelis boarded the ship armed with rubber bullets. The shooting occurred when the Israelis were attacked.
lol pasa I will expand on that a lil....
I am ex military but I am not pro israel..... I do not see things in terms of country, but in terms of target and objective.....
while others see commandos and protesters, I actually see soft targets ( protestors ) and hard targets ( the attacking protestors )....
as a ex soldier, I would have reacted the same way as the commandos when faced with the same resistance, with the exception that I would have * put them down * ( non lethal leg shots but not the kneecaps ) and used lethal force as a last resort ( if anybody pulled out a gun, I would have used lethal force )
I was not trained to be a moral, ethical, decision making person, I was trained to go in and get the job done, without a conscience, and without showing what others see.... peaceful people on a aid mission or armed people intend on cracking my skull..... I would have treated everybody the same way.... as potential targets to subdue and remove resistance
Please note that it was a US citizen who has introduced the blockade of Cuba by the US. I'm only clarifying a perspective that he may have not been aware of or chosing to ignore this perspective. In no way do I mean to offend US people...not even those who are too blind to see. Ok..I get pissed off with people buying into stupid one sided propaganda...lol
I can agree with your view about the world standing by as the US blockaded Cuba. The blockade did nothing to resolve the conflict between Russia/Cuba and the US. A few years ago strangely the US thought that Russia should not be concerned when it wanted to put nukes in Czech etc. (oh that is different you were invited ya sure ...Cuba invited Russia to put missiles on its land as well...pfft)
However, I believe that Canadians were scared shitless to the point of building and practising getting in bomb shelters just as the Yanks did as well. Kids in Canada practised hiding under their desks at school in case this became a nuclear war between the US and Soviets. Now, it is known that was a totally useless thing to do if a nuke went off but it might have calmed the fears of the dumb masses.
We must also remember that the US sponsored Bay of Pigs invasion (April 17, 1961) that precipitated the need for Cuba to want missiles to protect themselves from further invasion from the US or US aggression. The blockade and Cuban Missile crisis was October 23, 1962 more than a year after the invasion of Cuba by the ex pat Cubans financially and CIA sponsored experts. I believe that it is now known that there have been many attempts by US sponsored CIA agents to try to kill Castro. The US was clearly the aggressor here by sponsoring the Bay of Pigs invasion of a sovereign neighbouring country and then keeping it secret for quite awhile. Cuba is still under an embargo by the US. It hasn't worked. Cuba is still communist and the US has not done a thing to get control back over Cuba for the fat and rich. So , the US won what with its blockade? The missiles were removed and a nuke war was avoided by a wiser Russia. Thanks for not blowing up our world..RUSSIA...not the foolish US government. It took 25 more years to stop the Cold War due to stupidity and fear on both sides.
I'm sure that kids in israel and Gaza are scared shitless or maybe they are accustomed to living under such fearful conditions that are probably worse than Canucks and Yank kids endured? The US blockade did nothing to long term resolve the problem. The fear and nonsense on both sides does parallel what is going on between Gaza and Israel. Both are not very productive ways of resolving conflict.
"US is fine. The distinction of the south means very little anymore. You mght also note that, wth the exception of Heph, all thoe opposed are pacifists who have never stood a post, While those that are pro-Israel are ex-military."
Yes, that is interesting Pasa. You are on to something...it isn't the geography as much as brainwashed former soldiers or you may see it more positively as having a clearer understanding of the situation due to your military experience. I would call it brainwashing of the poor citizens who have ended up in the military so that they still support killing and murder. Not all who have been in the military suffer from residule post military belief that violence is the best solution.
btw I am not a real pacifist or I do not see myself that way. I'm not pro war either unless you are invaded. I supported the US going after Bin Laden but not Iraq. I do not support Russia's actions in the Ukraine nor Chechnya. I do not support Hamas' terrorist acts but do support their right to be the government of Gaza.
Is not a pacifist!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
what you may or may not know, tenni, is a lot of soldiers are not brainwashed, they are natural born killers..... they already have the instincts and lack of conscience.....
in the army, the natural traits are honed to a high degree.... and that is where you gain the elite soldiers.... they are not brainwashed into following a cause, they are used as a means to a end, cos they have no conscience, no issues with taking a human life and they do not suffer the after effects that affect a lot of soldiers and other force personnel..... the issues of * omg, I have taken a human life *
they do not care about the mission or the debrief, they are happy to be in a natural environment that suits them down to the ground.... they are given a target and told to take it out... thats all they see and hear..... and thats all they care about......
when you take somebody like that, and you give them the skills and the abilities to become more effective, you can not untrain them, you can not deprogramme them...you can not turn them off.....
thats a fucked up way of thinking that the general public believes.....
there is a reason why a number of nam vets never came home..... they can not ever come home.... they are natural born killers, you would not be bringing them home, you would just be giving them a new killing field, your home town......
I notice that you constantly refer to people as brainwashed..... well, the truth about a lot of people is far from it..... including ex soldiers....
For those who haven't seen it, this op-ed piece in the New York Times is an interesting read on the whole topic of Israel and current events:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/op...ml?ref=opinion
Peace
A very interesting and intelligently written article.Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotedude
Thank you for posting the link
coyotedude http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/op...ml?ref=opinion
Interesting article. The worrying sentence is the one at the end
"......The time has come to cut through the clichés surrounding it, treat Israel like a “normal” state and sever the umbilical cord....."
To continue the analogy, I think that has already happened. It's just that the degree of breast feeding and maternal protection that has followed has convinced junior that there is invincibility in the world and that mummy will always be there to sort the problem out, regardless of junior's behaviour.
It is careful weaning that is required without losing the investment in the offrspring. Junior in turn must accept the realities and responsibilities in growing up.
.
LDD - sadly there is much truth in what you say.
However, I feel that there has been an ommission. The other major goal in armed forces training is to introduce discipline. This is the governor and braking system on the 'machine'.
It is when this breaks down or is absent that one cannot turn off the 'dogs of war'. The question arises, should the susceptible ones continue / be kept in a controlled environment for fear of them harming others and / or themselves.
Essentially this is what this thread has been about. The brutalising (after) effects of war.
.
If the US ever does go down, who will Canada sell out to for protection? Who will protect it in time of war? They are incapable of protecting themselves and rely on America to save its sorry arse! I will bet that when the going gets tough, Canadians will cross the border in a vcery Mexican-like episode! Heck, they do it now for real medical care on a timely basis. Yet they carp about their socialized medicine as if it was great! Its not and neither is Canada's contributions to world peace! They are bunch of takers and backstabbers especially where America is concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
You're off topic but we were friends with China long before the US but I would say that things are not as good as they use to be. Russia is a neighbour as well via the arctic and North Pole. Until recently, we had not done anything that would make another country want to invade us.(going to Afghanistan to help our southern neighbour was a mistake in my opinion but we upheld NATO). We have been friends with Cuba for a long time. Perhaps we should invite Russia and China to do war games along the 49th parallel?. Things are not tough in Canada economically. Apparently, we have come out of the US generated global recession with our banking system and economy very strong compared to other G8 countries. There is no denying that Canada would be hurt if the US collapsed though. Otherwise, we would care less about our southern brothers and sisters.
uh...would you turn around so that I may be a backstabber..or would you rather that I hoof you in the nuts....:tongue: :bigrin:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69luvr
You don't need to do anything to have people want to invade, Tenni. And that's really the point. Being nice doesn't really garner much in global politics. Canada has rich natural resources. Resources that will become scarce in the coming years. Resources, btw, that China and Russia distinctly lack. Who will protect you when they want more of those resources than you are willing to sell/give?
Also, who will protect you when they want to use Canada as a staging ground to attack the US? If you think Russia and Canada wouldn't rather use Canada as their battleground than their home turf, or even than the US itself, then you're naieve. Screwing up Canada in a bid to get the US (with even richer resources) only makes sense from both a tactical and strategic standpoint.
Also, since you brought it up, I notice that the Candadian economy isn't doing so well as you say. They are even concerned that the universal healthcare system is going to go broke in less than 5 years if you don't adopt a different model according to the articles released from your government last week.
Yes, off topic. But, worthwhile to reinforce the point that Canada basically has no worries because the US takes on those worries for them. It's not you being nice that protects you. It's that no one wants to take us on to get to you. If we decide that we don't care enough anymore, and decide to become isolationist, Canada loses that protection.
The other worthwhile point to make is that Tenni is in the vast minority of people that I speak to from Canada. I'm on probably 8 or 10 forums that have Canadian posters, and I see a large group of Canadians every year at one of my national conventions in New Mexico that they travel to. So, this isn't my only exposure to Canadian thought. In fact, of the Canadians I talk to, he's the only America hater, and the only one that spews such vitriol about the US.
Pasa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Duck Dong
LDD
I think the vets you describe are, at least currently, a small minority. Most vets are pretty well balanced, and there are significant psych services for all of them, not just the ones that show outwardly that there is trouble.
I don't know many vets who are brainwashed, as Tenni claims. Most of them have a far deeper and better understanding of world events than those who haven't served, mostly due to seeing the effect of policy first hand (and being that hand, more often than not).
The military doesn't brainwash. In fact, brainwashing is counterproductive to military efficiency. The days of dumb grunts are long gone. Military members are highly trained, and more often than not, highly trained with multibillion dollar equipment that requires a high degree of decision making skills as well as technical skills to operate and service.
More and more, military units are given objectives and then allowed to accomplish the mission in the manner they best see fit once they have boots on the ground. This requires a high degree of self determination, and a high level of problem solving, as they have a variety of choices up to them within the given mission parameters.
It is cliche to consider military as dumb jocks brainwashed to only ask how high when a sergeant tells them to jump. I think it's excusable coming from people whos only brush with the military has been to enjoy the protection they provide. It is comments borne of ignorance, rather than arrogance. Otherwise it would be insulting.
Pasa
If this was not way off topic, I would comment. I have no idea how we got here except that I may have made a reference to some US metaphor to attempt to get Pasa aware about what he was writing. A possible reason why you meet Canadians who do not spew "vitriol" as you write, is that they may just be more polite than me. Most Canadians love US citizens that is true. Some of us tell you how we see things while others remain politey quite. If these Canadians were from Alberta or the prairie provinces they do tend to think along the line of what I read from people from your state. So , Canada's economy is not doing well? Well those bastard Cons in government ...I knew that they were lying...lol See, government propaganda is not exclusive to your country Pasa...:) The Cons are telling us as are our Bankers that we are doing so much better than the other G8 countries. We are out of the recession supposedly. No problem with out banking system either...supposedly...why those liars....lol
DAmn I commented...lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
I have not been in the military. I think that we are all exposed to our government's propaganda and that includes me. It is that type of brainwashing that I am referring to. How many killer soldiers that are in any military is an interesting topic. For all we know, some Israeli soldier may be a born killer and started the shooting. We probably will never know as Israel would not admit such a person being in their military...probably ..go ahead Israel prove me wrong...lol
I do think that there is something that goes in any group of men who are under strong pressure in a military situation. The top of society's intelligent citizens rarely end up as privates in a military unless they are conscripted. I believe that military service is compulsory in Israel for both men and women. So there may be both intelligent soldiers and born killers? If anyone watched the video of soldiers killing civilians in Iraq on youtube, it is hard to believe that something strange was going on within the soldiers' minds during the shootings..adrenaline...testosterone?.
As I initially wrote, I knew that Pasa would see this differently. He has written similar thoughts about his military experience. He would know how beneficial that it was for him to be in the military. Unlike Pasa, I reserve judgement as to blame. Sorry Pasa it is your written words that make me read you as a rather potentially violent man who may have been affected negatively by his military services and brainwashing or whatever we wish to call it(military training). If it isn't by the US military something else in your societal experience makes you perceive the world differently from those that you accuss of being pacifists. On the good side, I also see you as a very good man who is quite honourable. Funny too. I know that it doesn't matter to you but I like you ...except when you post such a violent perception of the world.
Pasa, you are quite correct that I have not had a lot of contact with military persons other than my cousin who was a very high ranking person in the Canadian military. I've posted before that he became a victim of PTSD in the Gulf War. During his military career, he was a very different person from before and after. He was very reserved and closed mouth..maybe because he was holding so many military secrets?..dunno. We have different perceptions due to our experiences. You may be correct but why do you post what seem to be rather aggressive and violently tending posts about the "bad" guys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
I am going to have to agree with you here, Pasa....basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
In the UK our armed forces are not seen a killing machines, but professionals doing a professional job.One which they joined the army, navy, airforce, to do. Highly trained and using sophisticated eqipment, many, many of these men and women are extremely skilled people. They are there to help out, if there are peace time disasters, or if they are called upon, by their country, to serve in an armed conflict. They don't consider themselves heroes or heroines. They are just doing the job, for which they have been trained. others call them heroic. The forces are far more modest.
As with any organisation, institution, profession, there will always be those who become damaged, either by the war situation, or by being the wrong type for the Services. If any member of the armed forces, gets out of control, theythen become a liability to themself, their colleagues and to civilians and none of us, need to have been in the forces, to realise that.
I am a potentially violent man. This is true. I blieve that safety is obtained through he projection force. This is true for nations ad well ad individuals. I do not trust that the government's pojecgion of force is enough
to kep me safe. So, I am willing to project force enough to ensure that I am not considered an easy target for thieves, mugers or vandals. I project enough willingness go use force that peol who would otherwise attempt to bully a weaker person wilo instead be polite. Further, I fully believe ghat an armed society is a polite society.
My willingmds to use force, however is preventative in nature. I am willing to use force, and I exude that willingness. It means that some problms seem to solve themselves. Peopl are much more willing to work with me once they get it. I have very rarely used violence. But pople just seem to know hat I've already decided that I'm willing to. Once you've decided that, hesitation is gone and you are almos talways at least astep ahead of everyone else.
I am also very funny and have wonderful singing voice.
Pasa
Scratches my head.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
What's all that got to do with the subject matter? The content, I'll refrain from commenting upon.
It was a direct reply to Tenni. So, ask him. And I'll apologize for the horrendous spelling in that post. It was sent via my phone.
Pasa
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
You get plenty of highly intelligent people serving in the ranks.
Pasa
I'm not sure how to connect this to the thread but I have to write that you perception of the world and how to go through life is not my thoughts at all. I wonder when I compare what you write to what your country and Israel do if there might be a connection as to how all three face life and the world?
I have no reason to project force in order to have safety in the community that I live in. You and the two countries seem to function on the basis of fear of threats towards you? You believe that there is a need to project force or actually use force in order to survive in the world. I will not write that you are wrong though. It just is not my world. I live in a community where there has been one murder in ten years. That was the result of teen boys fighting and one dying from the fight using their fists. No guns are used where I live. I have no need to project force by owning one let alone using it. I lock my front door but leave the garage and back door unlocked 24/7 and have since I moved here. In neighbouring larger cities there is more danger and some gun killings with illegal guns from your country or stolen from collectors but generally very few for the population size. I have no fear when I walk the streets of Toronto. I will admit that I believe that some ethnic youth may hold a similar view to you.
Israel has lived so long in fear that they may have a perspective like your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadenacpl2
Canticle:
"how i hate men telling me what to do"
so its obvious you are just here to cause a fight or hear yourself talk. I am telling you that you are talking stupid that has NOTHING to do with the topic.
Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.
Wow, another stupid (yes I said stupid) comment that has nothing to do with the topic... You sound like a child.
In conclusion, I have read most of your posts in this thread and others and I find your comments to be without merit and just argumentative. I hope others read my post and come to the same conclusion that this person is ONLY here to create a stir...
Hey moron : we ALL admit that Israel made a mistake. They were trigger happy and acted incorrectly but they had every right to investigate ships in the area. Israel has proof that in the past ships are bringing weapons into Gaza disguised as a relief / aide ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
As someone stated earlier, what you are being attacked on a daily basis it makes you shoot first & ask questions later.
Does that make it right? Absolutely NO... They definitely were at fault and need to redo their procedures for investigating ships in the Gaza. They will correct this but this never would have happened if not for prior actions of the Palestinians.
The area is a total mess and the only way any peace will be brought to the region is if the Palestinians do away with Hammas. Instead they are too scared to go against them therefore a member of the Hammas was voted into office.
People need to understand that Israel is not fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting Hammas!
It was in direct response to your comments. You keep going off topic, I respond, and then you ask why I'm going off topic. It's a funny game you play.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenni
Pasa
Hmmm. Well, Sir, you would be wrong. I am not here to cause a fight, or merely ''hear myself speak.'' What a ridiculous comment to make. Whatever you said.....and it must have been way back and I am not going to plough through all of the posts.....my comment...idea...view....would have been mine and mine alone and my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by boca.openminded
You obviously have no sense of humour.
''how i hate men telling me what to do"
That is my humour and even a serious subject can have a little levity added. If you don't understand my humour.....tough......and guess what...I am far from stupid and I don't make stupid comments. If you don't like what I say, that is your problem, not mine.
''Maybe Iran has said this. The USA has said and done a lot of things which the rest of the world disapproves of....as have all the major and minor powers.''
If I hear the President of Iran say certain things....then I will be able to comment that ''Yes, Iran has said that.'' However, I haven't and although I feel the same as many people, about such regimes as the Iranian one, I am not going to put words into mouths, unless I have heard them myself.
The USA has done many reprehensible things. So has the UK. So has Germany. So has Russia and the rest of what used to be the Soviet Union. So has China. So has Japan. We could go on forever listing countries and what the various Governments and Regimes have done, throughout history.
The USA is not perfect. Nowhere is. The State of Israel, most certainly, is not and neither are it's Arab and Non-Arab neighbours.
''In conclusion, I have read most of your posts in this thread and others and I find your comments to be without merit and just argumentative. I hope others read my post and come to the same conclusion that this person is ONLY here to create a stir...''
Thank you for reading most of my posts and thank you for finding most of them without merit. And this is meant to affect me......how? Because I don't agree with the Americans who have posted, I am argumentative? If that is how you/they feel.....then the comments I have made and the comments that others have made, must have hit a raw nerve. Not my/their problem.
I am a wordy person.....Sorry about that, but I'm not going to change. I am here to cause a stir and only to cause a stir? How silly and how wrong you are. Would you like to shut up, all those people who do not agree with you or the other pro Israeli people who have posted?? I would feel exactly the same about things, if it was a small country called Israel, being blockaded by a larger country called Palestine.
You have been insulting and I would say ''flamed,'' me. I have been insulting to absolutely no one and yet, I have been called racist, anti-semitic and also lacking intelligence.
You, Sir, do not know, what you are talking about.
Tenni,
You must live in a Utopia. In my experience, people suck. And people generally follow the rules due to only two things: 1. A small minority follow rules because it's the right thing to do. 2. Everyone else who follows rules does so because if they don't they will get their penis smacked either by the government, the community, or a person.
People, communities, societies, and governments all project force. Force can take different forms and formats. Societies normally only project force through peer pressure and social intimidation. Governments do everything through the threat of taking away your money or your freedom if you don't comply. Individuals either project force through being powerful in the community (to bring social pressure) or through physicality. I use both, actually.
If you live in a community that has no crime, it's not because people are nice. Force is being applied in an effective manner. And that's good.
I'm betting that you don't live in a place where there are many people who don't look like you, or where economic pressures don't force people of varying SocioEconomicStati together. I'm betting you live in a nice, middle class white suburb. I'm betting you've pretty much always lived there.
Pasa