Religious influence

[Realist]

I was told that there's a grave stone in Italy that has the following epitaph inscribed on it:

"Stranger, when you pass this way

do not curse my name,

For from darkness I came

and to darkness I have returned"

It's a statement about the loss of hope, as I see it.

Not in those same words, I have felt the same way and have asked myself, "Where did I come from and where am I going?"

I was having a discussion with a priest, as I was thinking of marrying a Catholic girl. He informed me that since she was a Catholic, I would have to undergo religious training to become Catholic, too. (Well, that didn't work out)

When I questioned the priest about why it was necessary for me to believe his dogma, he stated that without the church I was doomed to hell. He used the epitaph above as an example of how fruitless my life would be, if I didn't join up.

I'm not saying he was wrong, but I haven't seen anything concrete to support his teaching. Who knows, maybe I will find out.......

Scare tactics tends to make me doubtful and does not encourage me to feel the desire to join any organized religion.

I wonder how others deal with these things?

[chook]

HA.......I'm a Catholic and the end result of a Catholic Education.......Now how's that for a scarey thought :smilies15


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[DuckiesDarling]

The way I see it, religion is something interpreted by men (just a phrase not male bashing) and is heavily influenced with their own personal agendas. There are even mention of a notorious Bishop in England during the days of King John that spread a list of who God loves. Women were ranked lower than oxen. Supposedly he died calling for his mother.

That is why I have no intention of becoming part of an organized religion. People can think what they want about who is going to heaven or hell but the bottom line is that if you try your best to live a good life you earn your own reward. Be it Heaven or a better place in the next life.

[darkeyes]

Went 2 me cousins engagement party wen me wos 17... walked in door an there she wos all ova this ratha hunky quite gorge guy an they wer snoggin quite raunchily hands everywer so obviously wishin every1 wud sod off so they cud get down 2 brass tacks.. me breezed in an called ova "Paaauliiiine..... put 'im down ya dunno wer 'e's been.." Sed 2 'im as an aside.. "an believe me ya don wanna kno wer she's been eitha..." Did the stupid giggle wenyas been a smart arse an think yas ev so funny... Pauline intro'd us and sed 2 me coldy an looked zif she cud kill me.. "Danny.. this is Fran.. Fran.. Danny... Danny is a C of E vicar... ":eek:

Nope the ground didn open up.. but me did feel sumwot smaller than me already tidgie self...:(

They nev ev did get married, but honest..wos nowt 2 do wiv me...;)

[innaminka]

I have never understood how a rational person can be subjected to belief in magic.
I was a total unbeliever from about the age of 9.

And of course organised religion is just another political vehicle. (I am not bashing the great work many religious organisations, not just Christian, do in this world.)

[DuckiesDarling]

I have never understood how a rational person can be subjected to belief in magic.
I was a total unbeliever from about the age of 9.

And of course organised religion is just another political vehicle. (I am not bashing the great work many religious organisations, not just Christian, do in this world.)

A belief in religion does not mean a belief in magic, the two are not intertwined.

I personally do believe in magick as I have seen and experienced too much in my life not to do so. I'm a big fan of empirical evidence and it can make a believer out of anyone in a hurry.

That being said, I consider myself a rational person if a bit emotional about a few issues. I don't need any accoutrements to perform anything in my faith, I am surrounded by elements just by existing in this world.

[Realist]

Fran, you oughta write a book! I'd certainly buy a copy!

Chook, you're a nut! Wish we lived closer, I'd like to meet you!

DD, I think you hit the nail on the head.

You can make mistakes, but if you learn from them and try to do better next time, I feel that surely there'll be some reward. (other than burning for eternity, or playing a harp on a cloud) I hope that's the case, anyway.

Thanks for not having a fight over the subject, anyway!

[DuckiesDarling]

I've posted here before, March Hare. I have precognative dreams, two really stand out to me. One was a car wreck and the other was my sister dying. They happened within about three weeks of each other and the one scared me enough I called my sister and woke her up just to make sure she was okay and taking her medicine properly.

My car wreck was Sept 9, 1996. They found my sister dead Nov 14, 1996, she had died in her sleep from a diabetic coma. Both just as I dreamed them. That started me on a path to understand my abilities and led to where I am today. Precognative in dreams, intuitive and empathic.

But this is getting away from the point of the thread. Religion is a man made business, faith is what you make of it.

[citystyleguy]

baptized, confirmed, trained as an altar boy, married in the episcopal church; have attended many different christian churchs, as well as a reformed jewish service and wedding; other than that, i am only aware of what other faiths and their respective adherents have told and/or explained to me and what i have added to my store of information over the years.

in my teen years, dado pulled us children out of the church, and spent the adolescent years raised as a hardcore atheist. made us, especially me, his eldest learn the teachings of lord bertrand russell, and the ancient philosophies.

over the years then, and following, my catholic girlfriends and my pentecostal friends tried to convert me; after me, the girlfriends left the church, and the friends drifted off, just shaking their heads, muttering things about damnation, etc. and i went off exploring my sexual and bisexual self, as well as new gf's and bf's.

wife brought me back to the fold; tried her church, southern baptist, told her hell no, if church is going to be part of our lives, gotta go back to the episcopal church, which my beautiful, sweet thing fell in love with, even to getting baptized all over again. still attend even now, i love the rituals, etc. but reject the dogma.

for me, to explain the world, science is more than sufficient, as to what we call the soul, the only dogma that makes any sense is reincarnation, but not as the budhists, and hindi, dogma teach, but i will only know once i move on from this crazy void.

so saith the :cool:

[coyotedude]

Religion is a man made business, faith is what you make of it.

That is an awesome quote! I love it!

For me, there is a difference between religion and spirituality. I use the word "religion" to describe humanity's attitudes and understandings (or lack thereof) regarding the spiritual world, while I use "spirituality" to describe each individual's personal connection with the sacred.

I don't have a great deal of patience for religion at times, but I have great respect and reverence for spirituality.

With all due respect, I think the world is a sadder place without a little bit of magic...

[Hephaestion]

...........I have precognative dreams, ........

Scary

Many people believe in the evil eye and try to ward it off. So the question arises - If imminent events can make themselves known remotely, can thinking of events make them happen?

Sound daft? Praying is perhaps one aspect.

Of course there may be perfectly rational explantions with scientific grounding.

[Hephaestion]

Went 2 me cousins engagement party wen me wos 17... walked in door an there she wos all ova this ratha hunky quite gorge guy an they wer snoggin quite raunchily hands everywer so obviously wishin every1 wud sod off so they cud get down 2 brass tacks.. me breezed in an called ova "Paaauliiiine..... put 'im down ya dunno wer 'e's been.." Sed 2 'im as an aside.. "an believe me ya don wanna kno wer she's been eitha..." Did the stupid giggle wenyas been a smart arse an think yas ev so funny... Pauline intro'd us and sed 2 me coldy an looked zif she cud kill me.. "Danny.. this is Fran.. Fran.. Danny... Danny is a C of E vicar... ":eek:

Nope the ground didn open up.. but me did feel sumwot smaller than me already tidgie self...:(

They nev ev did get married, but honest..wos nowt 2 do wiv me...;)


Ah! The overt advantages of C of E as opposed to the celibacy (coughs) expected in most other religions.

[joshlfl]

Well you can always claim to believe in something when deep down you know it's bullshit. I just don't want to offend people so I got with it sometimes.
I do respect everyones beliefs though.

[Robinium]

When I questioned the priest about why it was necessary for me to believe his dogma, he stated that without the church I was doomed to hell. He used the epitaph above as an example of how fruitless my life would be, if I didn't join up.

Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The Roman Catholic Church had this kind of teaching until the 60ies, that if you did not join THEIR club, you'd go to hell, but they have discarded it since. Though of course they still think their church is the best option. Which means Catholics will have to get along with Protestants and Orthodoxes and Copts in heaven in the future. :bigrin:

Otherwise, I think religion is okay. First, I'm a Christian myself, and second, nun uniforms turn me on.

[Hephaestion]

Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The Roman Catholic Church had this kind of teaching until the 60ies, that if you did not join THEIR club, you'd go to hell, but they have discarded it since. Though of course they still think their church is the best option. Which means Catholics will have to get along with Protestants and Orthodoxes and Copts in heaven in the future. :bigrin:

Otherwise, I think religion is okay. First, I'm a Christian myself, and second, nun uniforms turn me on.

1) Christianity. Yeah! Giving the authorities a piece of one's mind; Beating up money lenders; Kissing feet; All that being stripped, tied to to a post and scourged; Getting into Heaven at the last minute by repenting. (Oh and did I mention Giving the authorities a piece of one's mind and beating up money lenders?). Then there's scaring the crap out of everyone by rising again.

2) Just what is the plural of Orthodox Christian

3) No jokes about getting into habits.

4) It's a good job that the Holy Trinity have a sense of humour.

[darkeyes]

I'm an agnostic Jew but religion or whatever religion/spirituality someone subscribes to is not magic or based on magic unless you're pagan, some type of satanist, or wiccan.

Maybe so..but ther r some fabulous fairy tales... an nev ev did believe in fairy tales...

[darkeyes]

Ah! The overt advantages of C of E as opposed to the celibacy (coughs) expected in most other religions.

Got off wiv a guy in St Andrews 1ce.. quite cute.. ungot off wiv 'im wen 'e told me wot 'e wos studyin.. Divinity.. wos gonna b a Kirk minister... soz.. but holy Joe stuff not for Fran... like soldiers an polis.. Fran did no do holy Joe's...

[jamieknyc]

There is no reason per se why a gay or bi person necessary has to be a militant atheist. Probably most aren't. Unfortunately a small but vocal minority have to make militant atheism into a loyalty test for the LGBT community.

Almost all of them are people who have a chip on their shoulder aboutfrom their childhood in Christian churches, as a reaction to the sexually repressed attitudes of Christianity. Jews and Moslems aren't really affected.

[void()]

Blah blah blah blah ...
Yadada yada yackity smackity blah yada



Ritual gave birth to magick, religion, and science. Ritual is merely routines that are perceived to attain outcomes.

I go to bed at night and say, "sun better come up tomorrow." Of course, the sun does, and keeps doing. But it becomes seen as a causal affect. I make the sun come up by my chant each night.

This was mankind's way to feel more secure in the world. Order needs to exist. Fire ball from the sky make tree burn and water fall out of sky. We were pounding on bones and that happened, ergo we pound on bones to get rain.

Human beings are worse than amoeba because they can reason but never really do. Amoeba can not reason yet somehow manage to continue thriving.

[Realist]

jamieinnyc wrote: "Jews and Moslems aren't really affected." ([sic]Muslims)

I'd really like to hear that theory!

[jamieknyc]

jamieinnyc wrote: "Jews and Moslems aren't really affected." ([sic]Muslims)

I'd really like to hear that theory!

Although both faiths prohibit homosexuality, neither views 'shedding the faith' as being a rite of passage, and you rarely meet their former adherents among miliatnt LGBT atheists.

[jamieknyc]

Says who?

I'm bisexual and I was raised Jewish but I am agnostic.

I have met some very militant Atheists who were raised Jewish and Islamic.

I even know lots of Jews who are straight and militant Atheists.

I don't shove my questioning of religious beliefs down people's throats like former Jewish and Islamic raised Atheists who are GLBT do and how Atheists in general seem to do. :2cents:

I meant those with a militant atheist agenda specifically over gay and lesbian issues, but even in your sense of the term most of the ahteist haters are ex-Christians.

[Falke]

Eh, religion has never made sense to me personally. The only time I get huffy over it is when someone tries to legislate morality.

[TaylorMade]

Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. The Roman Catholic Church had this kind of teaching until the 60ies, that if you did not join THEIR club, you'd go to hell, but they have discarded it since. Though of course they still think their church is the best option. Which means Catholics will have to get along with Protestants and Orthodoxes and Copts in heaven in the future. :bigrin:

Otherwise, I think religion is okay. First, I'm a Christian myself, and second, nun uniforms turn me on.

It's not priests in my case. . .but in Jr. High and in college I had a temporary fixation on one religious item, that's uniquely American . . . the LDS missionary.

Christ... I don't know where we got them from, but we had some fine ones in our neighborhood. . . when I was in 8th grade. And because of my LDS classmate (more on her later), a lot of them visited my house too.

We had a disproportionately high amount of them in my dorms in college as well, and I could spot them pretty well too. They seemed so nice and pure that the idea of corrupting them was almost an automatic turn on.

I think that's why I enjoyed my visit to SLC so much . . .just kidding. ;)

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

I meant those with a militant atheist agenda specifically over gay and lesbian issues, but even in your sense of the term most of the ahteist haters are ex-Christians.

This is as big a loada bollox as u have come up with yet Jamie.. most of the athiests who were raised Christian I know, and I know quite a few, lost their religion because they grew up and reason and logic told them that the mythology of Christianity was just that.. mythology.. I know several Jews who have no religion and a couple of moslems... they lost theirs for very much the same reason. Not all are gay admittedly, but some. And your description bears little or no relation to any such reality as u have tried to illustrate.. and I know quite a few more who have never had any religion.. and among them there is remarkably little hate such as you describe either..

I suggest you don't try and blaming athiesm and athiests.. I may be an athiest as are many of my friends and aquaintances.. I may be militant about many things.. but I am not militantly athiest.. and nor are many of them... they are on the whole, gay, straight or bisexual.. at least as decent human beings as any Christian, Jew, Moslem or any other religion you care to mention..

[elian]

Maybe the guy who wrote that Epitaph on the stone liked the darkness, who knows? People are always overlaying their own meaning on top of things and maybe reading too much into it.

Catholic church has some interesting ways of getting new members - you already know one of them. I think the other is if you're born into a Catholic family you're Catholic for life - oh, and guess who has an edict against the use of birth control?

At least I think in the US they are more liberal than in other parts of the world, and they also do good charity work but I'm sure I'd be a heretic in the eyes of the Pope. There was an interesting PBS special on the Medici family one time - invented banking in Italy. One of the patriarchs of that family became the first Pope. Unfortunately later the family fell on hard times and the Pope was literally selling decrees of salvation for money.

They say The Bible is the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man - and I have seen what the hand of man can do.

I'm sure that priest has good intentions, a lot of what institutions tell themselves over the years gets repeated so often it eventually sounds like the truth and becomes ingrained in the culture. If I was a serf I think I would be very thankful for the church actually - some shelter against the wrath of the king perhaps. There are a lot of places in the world where poverty still rules and if such a powerful institution can give food, shelter and comfort to people who would otherwise have none who am I to judge - as long as people do so of their own free will.

I will tell you however that my great grandmother was a devout RC who lived to be 100 years old - she clung on for dear life at Samhain because she was afraid to pass on "the most wicked day of the year". I can only say two things about that:

1) If you believe in Pagan tradition there were probably spirits waiting to welcome her to heaven and guide her home.

2) What good is a devout belief in religion if it doesn't even bring you comfort at the time of death?

I have had so many strange experiences and "coincidences" in my life that I do believe there is more to life than what science can explain right now. However, I believe that we also must take an active role in seeking out truthful knowledge. Belief in the divine is not a substitute for taking personal responsibility for our actions and exercising proper use of free will.

Growing up questioning my sexuality I used to seriously doubt my right to exist and whether or not I could ever be happy living in a world that seemed to hate a fundamental part of my identity. I felt isolated and alone. Frankly if I didn't have faith that something or someone loved me just the way I was and wanted me to keep going I wouldn't be here today.

Unitarians have a saying "Prayer doesn't change things, prayer changes people and people change things" - I have seen it both ways - sometimes faith is inspiration and sometimes I've witnessed what truly does seem like a miracle.

[Hephaestion]

TaylorMade

LDS = Latter Day Saints ?
SLC = Salt Lake City ?

Elian

PBS = Public Broadcasting Service ?
Samhain = the last day of summer? ( a wicked day - why?)

[TaylorMade]

TaylorMade

LDS = Latter Day Saints ?
SLC = Salt Lake City ?

Elian

PBS = Public Broadcasting Service ?
Samhain = the last day of summer? ( a wicked day - why?)


Yes, and Yes.


*Taylor*

[elian]

Elian

PBS = Public Broadcasting Service ?
Samhain = the last day of summer? ( a wicked day - why?)

Yes hon, the state run media here in the US and what is otherwise known as "Halloween" in secular culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain

When the Catholic Church started their doctrine they had a serious problem to solve - all of those former heathens had other holidays they still wanted to celebrate - so the Church adopted a lot of the same dates - but changed the reason for the celebration to one that was more palatable to the Church.

Consorting with any sort of spirits (paying homage to your ancestors?) or Magick was seen as heretical by the Church and so they demonized that type of behavior and told people they would go to hell if they believed in anything other than the one true Church and the one true God who only spoke through the Pope.

Curiously Día de los Muertos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead) is still celebrated with fervor in Mexico, I'm not sure how the Church made that one legal in their eyes, or maybe they just gave up and realized the couldn't stop such a large public demand.

[jamieknyc]

This is as big a loada bollox as u have come up with yet Jamie.. most of the athiests who were raised Christian I know, and I know quite a few, lost their religion because they grew up and reason and logic told them that the mythology of Christianity was just that.. mythology.. I know several Jews who have no religion and a couple of moslems... they lost theirs for very much the same reason. Not all are gay admittedly, but some. And your description bears little or no relation to any such reality as u have tried to illustrate.. and I know quite a few more who have never had any religion.. and among them there is remarkably little hate such as you describe either..

I suggest you don't try and blaming athiesm and athiests.. I may be an athiest as are many of my friends and aquaintances.. I may be militant about many things.. but I am not militantly athiest.. and nor are many of them... they are on the whole, gay, straight or bisexual.. at least as decent human beings as any Christian, Jew, Moslem or any other religion you care to mention..

The post son this thread speak for themselves as to the sociology of the haters. And I am sure that you could count the number of Jews and Moslems that you know and have a few fingers left over.

[Hephaestion]

Yes hon, the state run media here in the US and what is otherwise known as "Halloween" in secular culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain

When the Catholic Church started their doctrine they had a serious problem to solve - all of those former heathens had other holidays they still wanted to celebrate - so the Church adopted a lot of the same dates - but changed the reason for the celebration to one that was more palatable to the Church.

Consorting with any sort of spirits (paying homage to your ancestors?) or Magick was seen as heretical by the Church and so they demonized that type of behavior and told people they would go to hell if they believed in anything other than the one true Church and the one true God who only spoke through the Pope.

Curiously DÃ*a de los Muertos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead) is still celebrated with fervor in Mexico, I'm not sure how the Church made that one legal in their eyes, or maybe they just gave up and realized the couldn't stop such a large public demand.

In Christian life the cemetary was always seen as hallowed ground, therefore a place for peaceful souls and the celbration of their lives. Often a focus for village life. Curious that the latter day Catholics have a reputation for anachronism

As a child in the late 50's (very early 60's?) I remember the Pope being televised blessing a new word into the usable language of Catholic Christianity. The word? 'Helicopter'. Seems he wanted to use one. It was at that moment that I smelled a rat.

IN this period there were the Catholic twins who visited their aunt and great aunt (the Aunt's mum) who lived in our tenement block. I saw them (circumstances escape me) one Friday morning eating dry corn flakes. I asked if they'd run out of milk and should I go and ask my mum if we had any to spare. No it was Friday and Friday was a day of abstinence. There's abstinence and there's torture

Also enigmatic was why Catholic kids were excused morning Assembly because of a clash of faith. I could never identify where that clash was.

I was later to marry in the Catholic church. What did I discover? Sod all difference in the articles of faith. Differences lay the name of the organisation and who led it (a bit like Ford or General Motors). The most striking difference was that Protestant hymns were more pleasing to the ear. Although the old archimandrite and his group sing well.

Later I was to take an interest in history after a series of chance events. Religion, partition of lands, the voyages of discovery and above all the Greco- Roman empire(s) all made sense. But that was the world culminating in the supremacy of the English nations and their arch rivals the muslims.

I watch as the world order changes and wonder if I can learn Chinese in time.

[darkeyes]

The post son this thread speak for themselves as to the sociology of the haters. And I am sure that you could count the number of Jews and Moslems that you know and have a few fingers left over.

Really? As a long time member of the Labour party I was aquainted with befriended a fair number of both.. as a Trade union activist for a number of years I met and liked and still am friends with a few more.. and as a student met even more, not just from the UK but from around the world.. several of whom I remain in touch with.. and as a citizen of my home town.. I know even more.. I don't have to justify who I know and don't.. but you do have a nasty and unpleasant demeanour at times.. this isnt the 1950's when the people of my country were born here of "native stock" almost to a man or woman.. it is almost impossible to live in a major city in the UK and not know people of many different races and religions.. unless of course one is a bigot and refuse to know them...

[Wolf_Sr]

I personally do believe in magick as I have seen and experienced too much in my life not to do so. I'm a big fan of empirical evidence and it can make a believer out of anyone in a hurry. I don't need any accoutrements to perform anything in my faith, I am surrounded by elements just by existing in this world.

Well said, Twilight Lady
Hugs

[elian]

Sometimes people look at you funny when you say the word Magick, but at its root I've always considered it to be another form of prayer. Humans are very creative and have many different ways of expressing faith and intention.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to religion in school IF I knew that a magickal circle (or any other form of physically non-threatening worship) would get as much respect as a christian prayer circle - but I know that not all religions would be treated equally and therefore I am against religion in school.

I guess this is what happens when you are forced to think with an open mind about your sexuality - at least a little tolerance starts creeping into other aspects of your life .. Well that and the traditional church sort of made it sound between the lines as if gay people were not welcome so it's easier to start looking elsewhere for inspiration.

[void()]

Out of respect I used to attend the family's Baptist church. I stopped going upon seeing a poster rallying for Baptists to protest violently at the homosexual Olympics. Plain as day on the church's bulletin board in the vestibule. Thanks but no thanks.

And people wonder why there is hate. I'm of a notion it'll never end. Mankind on a whole fears anything different. Gee, looks like there's always something different. So, we fear and ostracize, create the crucifixes and martyr all while proclaiming we are better than this. Yeah, we've got your hate right here.

Funny then, most of us bleeding red. Oh well.

[guynice]

Religion is about fear, mind control,power for the church and conning you out of as much money as they can.There are no gods, no devils,no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.

[elian]

What can I say? I like the story with the tiger better than the one without.

This lady would be great fun to talk to at a party I think..

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_atwood.html

.. Jeanette Winterson and Sir John Houghton were also interesting to me.

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling
Religion is a man made business, faith is what you make of it.

Bravo to you Duckie. Very well put. I was raised Catholic, but havent been a very good one I am afraid. Religion is a very touchy subject to me, and I lost my faith until I met my husband several years ago. He has a totally different belief system that was taught to Him by a very wondrous lady. It kept his heart safe and happy all of the time he was in the Gulf War, and kept me sane while he was gone. Religion, in my humble opinion, is what a person believes in their heart and soul, and it should not matter to anyone else what that belief is. It is Their belief, no a church, not another person. And they should believe and worship their creator in their own light and time.

I hope this makes sense? I am under heavy antibiotics and probably am not making proper sense.
Kit & Ki.

[TaylorMade]

I understood you, KP. :-D

*Taylor*

[elian]

Yes absolutely - having faith and being able to share with others in a caring community is important but the divine is not in the building, or the statue, or the creed - the divine is in the heart, and that to me is what matters most.

[darkeyes]

On a lighter note.. we were driving up the A701 from Galloway early this morning when we noticed a guy very definitely having a pee at the side of the road.. as we got closer he seemed to panic and started to fumble with his fly.. he turned round and dashed into his car and as we passed by we both noticed very clearly... A DOG COLLAR!!!!!:eek:

What can I say.. except maybe... shocking... I do hope in his panic he didn't drib down his leg...;):tong:

[Nadir]

As most Spaniards, I was baptised and raised in the Catholic faith, although I have identified as an agnostic since I was sixteen years old. I spent most of my teenage years on a Catholic school, and most of our teachers were very conservative, as was the school principal. When I was young, I was terrified of commiting a sin and be damned to hell, so I usually prayed for God all the mornings to forgive me of whatever bad actions I could have done. When puberty hit and I began to pleasure myself I was amazed yet at the same time horrified because I thought I was sinning, so you must guess how guilty I felt for something that nowadays looks pretty normal to me and most of the people that surrounds me. Even when I had to take confession (our school was associated with a parish and a priest came over every couple of weeks or so, and our principal and some teachers gave us the oportunity to go and confess...it was boring as hell, waiting in line for some old guy to absolve you of all the non-sense that a thirteen year old can do, but at least you got to skip class if you did), I couldnt tell the priest I masturbated because I thought he would damn me to hell (I doubt he would even hear me, the poor man was always dozing off). The last time I confessed my sins was when I was fourteen years old. I had been involved in a fight with several classmates and the girl I had a crush on told me it would be better "for my conscience" to tell the priest about it. I told her that I wouldnt have any of that, but she insisted, so I basically went to the school´s chapel for her to leave me alone.

Once there, I told the priest about the fight, and how four of the guys who had been involved in it were now in suspension. He told me to pray four "Holy Fathers", one for every one of them. I told him I would do it, but, truth is, after he went out of the chapel, I basically set off to my class without thinking it twice. I couldnt care less about the four other guys and their souls... after all, they were the ones who had started it.

Growing up in a school like that, where "homosexuality" and "bisexuality" were considered, in words of our dear principal, Don Pedro, "an abomination" and "something unnatural", made me despise religion (especially Christianity, and even more so, Catholicism) and by the time I was fifteen I considered myself an Atheist, with little respect for priests and their morals. However, I respected other´s faith, and had no problem with letting them worship their god (or gods) as they wanted. When I went living abroad (at sixteen) I had what you could call an "existencial crisis", and I decided to embrace agnosticism, letting Doubt being my only personal God.

The thing is, religions are like most facets of society, they tend to evolve and change according to the flow of time. Although less and less people every day are becoming nuns and priests, those who are entering into the priesthood are people whose ideas and beliefs are more in line with people from this day and age, and that is the basis of change. Like many priests in the sixties that supported left-right ideologies when everyone in Europe (especially in Spain) was frowning upon them.

[sammie19]

The youngish nun on a train who said to me that she wished she could wear such colourful clothes and which showed off her body shape. I wasn't sure she wasn't hitting on me until she said "Alas, such pleasures are forbidden me." The rest of the conversation was interesting and she had a wry sense of humour but I think she was just a very progressive minded nun who had some regrets about what must be a very difficult life.

[Realist]

Sammie

I've often wondered how many who joined religious orders, did so in a fervor and under influence of others, then later wished they had not?

The nun you met seemed to have second thoughts. I've known others, who were influenced to commit to some religious order by families, close friends, or maybe their own fired-up enthusiasm, when they young and impressionable.

I once met a couple, who had been a priest and nun, fell in love while serving, then left the church and married.

I wonder how many stayed in different situations and suffered, as they stayed in between their perceived duty and desire for freedom?

I, too, have made choices that I've regretted and stayed long after I knew I was on the wrong path. I assume I stayed because I didn't know how to get out of situations I'd gotten myself into.....that's actually a cowardly thing to do! Bad marriages, dead-end jobs, and commitments I'd made and later regretted. Once we decide that we've made a bad choice, why is it so hard to get out? What is it about us that makes us stay where we no longer feel the desire, or motivation, to continue?

Religion, like marriage, relationships, or any other commitment, becomes a habit and, long after we no longer feel the desire...........we hang in there. Or at least I have.

What's up with that?

[darkeyes]

The youngish nun on a train who said to me that she wished she could wear such colourful clothes and which showed off her body shape. I wasn't sure she wasn't hitting on me until she said "Alas, such pleasures are forbidden me." The rest of the conversation was interesting and she had a wry sense of humour but I think she was just a very progressive minded nun who had some regrets about what must be a very difficult life.

Hmmmm....;)