NOM's Supporters

[MarieDelta]

This video-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IraXzRHVtsg

Discuss-

[DuckiesDarling]

One thing stands clear to me on reading the comments....

"Martin Luther King must be spinning in his grave seeing black women at a bigotry rally"

It's not about race at all. It's about one hell of a lot of misinformation. I believe that anyone should be able to marry anyone just as I believe they should have to go through divorce just like everyone else.

Yes, promiscuity is responsible for the spread of HIV, but so is being a drug addict or just unlucky enough to need a transfusion that slips through the cracks.

There are outspoken people on both sides of the issue but it comes down to the Constitution. And Prop 8 is clearly unconstitutional. It doesn't matter that it was the "will of the voters", what matters is that no law in this land may be enforced if it violates the Constitution of the United States of America.

At this point in time they have placed a permanent ban on same sex marriages in California until they can get a ruling on the Constitutionality of Prop 8.

Even in this day and age where they are doing the best they can to provide for the partners in a same sex relationship, at times it's not enough.

I am well aware that I am one of the lucky ones, I am in a relationship that would not be challenged in any nation in the world because it is Man and Woman.

Yes, two males can't have kids, two females can't have kids...Not naturally but medical science and surrogates have a remarkable way of evening the odds there.

Gods law?? He only has one, love everyone as you are all my children. What you do to the least of my children you also do to me. I think the rabid religious should go read the Bible again.

And finally, bullshit. You do see homosexual behaviour in a lot of animals, it's not unnatural because it occurs in nature. Perhaps they should read up on the root of the word "natural".

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Amen Sisters! God made people in His image, at least thats what I have been taught. And I know God loves each and every one of his children the same way. I dont normally get into religions, but those ladies are wrong. They are right to believe in what they want to, but they are wrong about their facts.
To each his and her own! :}
Cat

[allbimyself]

Well, hell! Let's turn the US into a theocracy so they can enforce their beliefs on everyone! Any political argument that includes religion at it's base is wrong from the start.

Yes, believe what you want, but trying to sway reasonable people with religious arguments (especially when the religion you are using doesn't even say what you say it does) in a secular society is pointless. They know it, too, which is why they make up shit... like the Catholic church in CA saying in Spanish language commercials that legalized same sex marriage would lead to men marrying other men instead of women as propaganda to get them to vote for Prop 8. The fact that argument even worked to sway any voters just goes to show how illogical and ignorant the voters are.

[BiCycler]

I am truly sorry if this offends; that is certainly not my intent or desire, but at the same time I find stuff like what I saw on the film highly offensive.

Did anyone actually watch that rhetorical rant shit to the end? God's law. what the hell is that? I had so much more typed out and I started to feel so frustrated. This is just another example of an endless stream of baseless arguments. And how does one appreciably argue with people who base their arguments on faith? You can quote the bible, just another book and not the only one that people regard as "the" book, as much as you want, I'm still not going to be convinced that there is some sort of entity named God who monitors behaviour and metes out punishment for so-called sins. At the very least, there are many many philosophies regarding who and what we are and what if any purpose we are meant to satisfy. Sometimes, in order to fully enjoy (or appreciate) a story, one needs to suspend belief and adopt the world the author(s) has crafted. I feel the same way about the bible. The only reason I give credence to people like those in the film is that I believe they are dangerous to us all. These people influence government and if allowed to forward their agenda unchecked, they will bring ruin to us all. I'm not worried about it too much though. I know many people who do ascribe the bible to God and also practice the tenets within that speak to love thy neighbour and forgiveness and my absolute favourite, one that I practice as much as I am able to, 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'. To those in the film and anyone else who behaves like them, believe what you want but keep it the fuck away from me. I think I'm ready to burst into flames here, sheeesh, and that in itself bothers me because I have better uses for my passion. If I'm not doing you harm, real harm not imagined, then why should I accept your attacks on my behaviour? Like bees, some people cause you no harm if you do the same for them. Others however come at you unprovoked like hornets.

Did I say what I wanted? Not really, because to say what I really want to on this subject would take way too long and be way too dense for a forum discussion and again I find the process less useful than I do the act of letting it go.

Please, to Christians everywhere, I know you are a varied group, like any other. I speak only to those that work very hard to check the behaviours of others and practice what I call hate not love. That applies to any people who utilize the tenets of any religion to practice hatred towards others.:flag2::rainbow:

[darkeyes]

Just makes me glad of my athiesm...:)

[12voltman59]

I hate to inform that lady of the facts--but here in the US of A----we don't have any such a thing as "God's Law"--we have a long and proud tradition, thank you very much of secular law that goes back to age old and well proven elements that make up our man made law that are based on English Common Law and the Magna Carta, to name but a few.

While those elements, along with the development of statutory law are not perfect creations---they have lead to a rather reasonable society, (more or less) where they are followed--which is much preferable to those places that do rely upon their versions of "god's law."

I don't know about many of you--but give me the imperfections of secular, man derived law any old time over laws that are ostensibly derived from a being's existence that, while it might be "an act of faith" to believe in---we can never fully prove the existence of that being and even if we could--I don't think it would be in our capacity to know fully and completely--"the mind of God!"

I sure as hell don't want to be subject to any form of religious extreme law--whether those laws come from the Vatican, one of the many protestant faiths, rabbinic or Sharia law.

History both in the past and present pretty much does go to show--life is not all that much fun under such law--personally--I would rather be dead than suffer under "god's law" thank you very much!!!

[coyotedude]

I don't mean to offend anyone. But several years ago, I received an e-mail from a friend about God's law:


Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.... End of debate!!!!

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some specific laws and how to best follow them as a true believer.


When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident that you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.


Peace

[Falke]

History both in the past and present pretty much does go to show--life is not all that much fun under such law--personally--I would rather be dead than suffer under "god's law" thank you very much!!!

This! Oh so very much this!

[citystyleguy]

...and these ignorant morons will never see themselves for the hateful fools that they are, espousing tenets that they cannot even explain coherently! it is this very same book that they claim is the word of god, which many others use to condem these women, saying that these women shall be separated out from society, and sent into slavery itself. also, from these very same pages, men have declared women as being less than a man, and that a woman must submit themselves to the will of the man.....

more garbage has been spewed from such venemous individuals, wreaking havoc upon others, all in the name of a loving god!

not hard to see why so many have left organized religion in ever greater numbers, when such hate and ingorance reign supreme!

[coyotedude]

In all fairness, one must be careful not to take the text of the Christian Bible (or any scripture) out of context. The Bible is a very complex document, edited and translated multiple times from multiple sources by people with evolving understandings of the world around them. I would argue that the less you understand about the history and culture of the people who wrote, edited, and translated the Bible, the less you understand of the Bible itself.

This is as true for Christians as it is for atheists. One of my biggest beefs with modern Christianity (at least in the United States) is how many people who profess to be Christians use the Bible as an excuse to justify their hatred and bigotry. This is particularly annoying because the central message of Christ's ministry was not hatred but love. From love comes compassion - from compassion, mercy - from mercy, forgiveness. Yet too many Christians and churches today have wandered from the core of Christ's teachings - as witnessed by the link that we are all commenting on...

Peace

[Robinium]

About coyotedude's citation of the e-mail about God's law:

it's not as simple as this. Christians consider the New Testament to be the "update" of the Old Testament. So whenever an Old Testament law gets changed in the New Testament, the new version is valid, but those things which did not change remain the same. Most of the points in the God's law e-mail got "updated" in the New Testament. Or they cannot be fulfilled any more - the Temple was destroyed about 70 AD so you cannot do any Temple stuff any more.

It still leaves much room open to interpretation, though. And this is where liberal, fundamentalist and conservative Christianism disagree.

[Hephaestion]

............... like the Catholic church in CA saying in Spanish language commercials .........

Did California not pass a law to make English the official language. So is it legal to broadcast in another language albeit an advert as this would disadvantage the non-Spanish speaking minority?

We receive French and German adverts in the UK but then these are acredited languages of the Union although most 'business' (all sorts) is done in English.

On topic. It's not Christianity that is at fault. It is the feeble minded 'Christian' extremists who commandeer it. Sounds awfully familiar with the words Islam and Muslim substituted.

.

[darkeyes]

In all fairness, one must be careful not to take the text of the Christian Bible (or any scripture) out of context. The Bible is a very complex document, edited and translated multiple times from multiple sources by people with evolving understandings of the world around them. I would argue that the less you understand about the history and culture of the people who wrote, edited, and translated the Bible, the less you understand of the Bible itself.

This is as true for Christians as it is for atheists. One of my biggest beefs with modern Christianity (at least in the United States) is how many people who profess to be Christians use the Bible as an excuse to justify their hatred and bigotry. This is particularly annoying because the central message of Christ's ministry was not hatred but love. From love comes compassion - from compassion, mercy - from mercy, forgiveness. Yet too many Christians and churches today have wandered from the core of Christ's teachings - as witnessed by the link that we are all commenting on...

Peace

I have several times in these forums said I find Christianity, or at least what we are told are the teaching so Christ, fairly attractive as religions go.. my society was built on these teachings and the attitudes of most people who are native British have been shaped and formed by that historical link.. I am not Christian yet much, not all of Christianity I have incorporated into how I live my life..

Yet were what we believe to be the teachings of Christ indeed that? There is not one shred of evidence that he uttered one word, or preached one sermon, told one parable, performed one miracle or was responsible, in any way for what we are told is Christianity.. it is yes, a matter of belief and faith.. and I respect that.. it is also a matter of the honesty and integrity of a group of religious scholars back in the 4th century... what we know of Christ if he existed, and I do not disbelieve that he did exist, comes from what we are told is the writings of 4 people 30 years and more after his death .. arguably more if you take note of the gnostic gospels.. we do not know for certain that these 4 people actually did write what we know as the New Testament.. indeed what we are told of Christ was decided upon not by any real evidence, and not even any realistic critique by committee and debate 300 years after the man is supposed to have died at the whim of an unscrupulous and opportunistic Roman Emperor (Conference of Nicea - 325CE).. the idea was to achieve consensus, not truth.. and interestingly even Rome had no record of the man..

So while I respect the belief's of those who are Christian in the proper sense of the word.. those who try to live by the gospels as we know them, I do always urge caution for the reality of Christ and Christianity bears no real relation to the man himself or anything he may or may not have preached.. it is a matter of faith.. that I do not share that faith leaves no hole in my life and I accept my ultimate fate to be oblivion.. but I do in many respects, not all by a long shot, live my life in accord with many of the preachings that we are told Christ is supposed to have made..

[allbimyself]

Did California not pass a law to make English the official language. So is it legal to broadcast in another language albeit an advert as this would disadvantage the non-Spanish speaking minority?

We receive French and German adverts in the UK but then these are acredited languages of the Union although most 'business' (all sorts) is done in English.

On topic. It's not Christianity that is at fault. It is the feeble minded 'Christian' extremists who commandeer it. Sounds awfully familiar with the words Islam and Muslim substituted.

.Having an "official" language does not preclude the PRIVATE use of other languages. All it meant was that state government business is conducted in and documents are written in English.

Extremism of any stripe is usually The Problem. Extremism in ideology, theology, philosophy (throw in a few more -gy and -phy words) are the root of the majority of our problems and lead to great difficulty in solving the problems not directly created by extremism.

[jamieknyc]

Tell me why I am not surprised to see racism rearing its ugly head in the white-as-rice LBGT movement?

[darkeyes]

Tell me why I am not surprised to see racism rearing its ugly head in the white-as-rice LBGT movement?

Maybe cos the LGBT movement has as many racists per head as the straight population... certainly, has its fair share of bams intolerant of many things..even some of their own kind..

[Hephaestion]

brown rice?

[TaylorMade]

Tell me why I am not surprised to see racism rearing its ugly head in the white-as-rice LBGT movement?

It's a wierd thing that I'll have to take apart in my own mind before I explain to anyone else.


About coyotedude's citation of the e-mail about God's law:

it's not as simple as this. Christians consider the New Testament to be the "update" of the Old Testament. So whenever an Old Testament law gets changed in the New Testament, the new version is valid, but those things which did not change remain the same. Most of the points in the God's law e-mail got "updated" in the New Testament. Or they cannot be fulfilled any more - the Temple was destroyed about 70 AD so you cannot do any Temple stuff any more.

It still leaves much room open to interpretation, though. And this is where liberal, fundamentalist and conservative Christianism disagree.

This . . .Oh, Heavens this . . .

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

Tell me why I am not surprised to see racism rearing its ugly head in the white-as-rice LBGT movement?

Pardon me, could you please show me the racism?

Not trying to be argumentive, but I'm not seeing it.

[IanBorthwick]

Tell me why I am not surprised to see racism rearing its ugly head in the white-as-rice LBGT movement?

Now this is the first time I ever herd of this. When I go to pride I see all the ethnicities in the city at large and quite a few just outside it in Long Beach. What did I miss?

And at teh Christopher West Pride in West Hollywood, it's all black and hispanic....White As Rice? You need to get out more often I am thinking.