Support our Troops

[Sparks]

Dear friends,
Via Sattelite telephone, I reveived a telephone call today from a kid whom I call my step-son in Afganistan. You see, he's a United States Marine. Please pray for the men and women who have the courage. The courage to step up to the plate and serve America, and the United Kingdom and all the values and the concepets of freedom.

For those of you that have loved ones, or friends, within the Coalition Forces in the Middle East, there is a way for you to write them via email to give your love, care and support. You must know their snail mail address to send your message. This is a send only web site. As such, they are unable to respond to your letter. Nevertheless, it's a wonderful way for you to just drop a note.

Log onto http://motomail.us If you're in the UK, It'll be dot uk. As a Vieitnam Veteran, I know from experience. Please, let's all stand up together, in the name of freedom, and bring our troops home safely.

[texasman6172003]

Hi Sparks, As you know i replied to your last post like this. I agree we need to support our troops. After all they are only doing there job.Albiet a most dangerous job that a few of us could or would do. I for one saw how my uncle was treated after he returned from viet nam. We should give all our utmost respect that they do desereve. God bless you and all who have served our country and are currently serving. May they all come home safely to there families.. Love,,,Charles,,,Tex....

[Sparks]

Texasman.......thank you.....to the rest of you, please help keep this thread open and alive. Our men and women in uniform, I sure do respect them.

[arana]

This is a link to an article on one of the reasons we should support not only those who are fighting for our freedom but also reach out to the families that must sit and wait for their return. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060508/richards
....bring our troops home!

[timsgfdmo]

The current administration is making it more and more difficult to support the troops. They shroud their policies by covering it with the mesage that if you are critical of their policy then you are defeatist and you are undermining the troops. Bush cuts VA spending but no one accuses him of not supporting the troops. That VA spending that is being cut is used to rehabilitate wounded coming back from Bush's wars. If people refused to go to war than govts would not be able to use war as a political tool. Throughout time the average grunt from either side in a war has more in common with the people they are killing then their own rich elite so called leaders. How many funerals has Bush gone to?

To paraphrase Herman Goerring on his death bed as a war criminal: It does not matter what form of govt you have (democracy, monarchy dictatorship) it is so easy for the people in power to get its citizens to go to war by invoking the notion that they are under attack. The poor slob citizen who is tricked into becoming a soldier will be lucky to get home in one piece. That is the best he/she can hope for.

Where are the powerful and elite's children in this war?

Lets stop glamorizing soldiers. It is a job just like an undertaker, garbage man, teacher, fireman or police officer. We convince kids being a soldier is glamorous. How glamorous is it to be 20 and be paralyzed from the chest down, or no legs or no arms or blind? The so called leaders who sent these young people to these horrible fates found ways to avoid their opportunity for glamour in Vietnam.

Lastly every media/internet source I go to it is war on terror this, war on terror that, war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, bomb this, bomb that, war in Iran, the Chinese threat etc. I am tired of it. How about we turn on the nightly news one night and see beautiful people making love instead of this constant self-fulfilling prophecies of war and violence. I come to a site like this to escape all the war is necessary propaganda bullshit.


Before you criticize me as one who knows not what I talk about. I am a veteran of the Gulf War and was mobilized for 2 years after 9/11. I have been there and done that.

[tatooedpunk]

sorry to be a bitch, but f*ck george bush and his "war"
people are dying in iraq to serve some purpose which we dont know
this is just a distraction bin laden is laughing at the west as we attack soft targets, again sorry but f*ck it a young man from my town died in iraq

[julie]

So much passion posted here...

Life seems so expendible to those who have power to begin and end wars.. the troops seem to be pawns in the superpowers 'game' that we have so little comprehension of..

Life is so precious... yet people get exploited whether they are doing their jobs or just getting on with their lives. I am in email contact with one of our bi.com members 'serving his country' whatever that means.. in the 'war on terror' right now...
Except to me he is just a man .. trying to reconcile himself with his sexuality whilst doing the job he is paid to do..

My 'support' extends to all of those caught up in this bloodshed.. not just 'our troops'

Julie :female:

[timsgfdmo]

Sparks,

I have such frustration over seeing all the wasted lives and money that I directed a lot of emotion at you. I realize you or your step son did not create this policy. You and him are doing what you think is best. I wish the best for him and you.

I ask you to consider what the best thing you and him can do to create peace in the world. It is undeniable that the elites that run countries have since the beginning of time found reasons to send their young off to die and kill. These ruling elites need young men and women that are willing to go. They have always gone thus making the war possible. What would happen if the people said no I will not go? The protests of Vietnam had a significant impact in ending that war.

Ask your step son to not re-enlist in a career of destruction when his enlistment expires. Ask him to find a career of construction or creation.

[MotherGoose]

I for one, am also fed up with all of this war crap.

My son-in-law, who is quite a few years older that my daughter, had put in for his retirement last August. He is a commander for the sea bees. He and my daughter had plans this summer to add on to their home in the country. He is a contractor by trade, and wanted to add on a three bedroom and bath edition, as they have 3 small children, 6 years, 4 years and 1 year. They only have a small 2 bedroom farmhouse which all 3 children stay in one bedroom.

Anyhow, instead of sending back his retirement papers, they instead sent him deployment papers. He has been in Iraq since Jan. 23rd of this year. It has been extremely hard on my daughter, as she is a stay at home mom, and trying to take care of everything out at the farm by herself. I try to take the kids off her hands as much as I can, but I work full time myself, and live quite a ways from her. My son (who is single) finally gave up his apartment to move in with my daughter. His job is closer to her farm than where he lived before, so thankfully, it works out good for both of them. He helps her with her kids and the farm, and she feeds and does his laundry for him in return.

She e-mails her husband all the time (as do I), and we send packages as often as we can, but it's not the same. My own mother has written several letters (to no avail) to congress and state legislators, to our aldermen and govenors to find some answers about keeping our soldiers here in our country to help us build up from our destructions ie: hurricanes in the south, and all she ever gets is a runaround from them all. There is always a reason, according to the government, why we have to be overseas. To finish what we started. WHO STARTED WHAT? Why do we have to take care of the entire world? We need to start taking care of our own. How many jumped over here to help us after we were attacked? I personally am sick of all of this.

BUT.....I pray for our men and women who serve our country every night! And am proud of who they are and what they do for us! I want them all to come back home safely to us, NOW! Let's end all of this hate. I for one, want my son in law back home with his family where he should be. To be there for my daughter, and to enjoy his time with his family. Life is too damn short spending it fighting for something we didn't start. And as I see it, they don't want us there anymore anyhow! So, let's get the hell out! Bring our sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, all of them home. Lets take care of ourselves here first!

Macylyn :mad:

[woolleygirl]

I to now the frustration of wanting to support but feeling like where the hell is our family support. I have a nephew and a brother both in the military. My brother and his wife are divorced but his kids are feeling the stress of him being gone and constantly worrying about their dad. My nephew is supposed to be deploied in the fall. My family is worried. I am also scared cause I am really close to my nephew he just turned 21 he is still a baby.

T

[nakedambrosia]

One cannot support the troops and be against the war in Iraq at the same time. I'm against the war and I'm actively working to undermine the effort through legal activism. Thus, if I'm protesting the war, then I cannot support the troop effort there. President Bush needs to let Iraq govern itself. Furthermore, the ultimate hypocrisy of our administration to tell Iran that they cannot continue their nuclear program while the U.S has thousands of nuclear warheads to include those in submarines patrolling the world's oceans shows how this administration is out of touch. The only thing President Bush had to say to Iran was that our policy of all or none (you use one weapon against us and we will destroy your country completely) which comes from the Cold War nuclear doctrine stands. It's ok for you, Iran, to develop nuclear technology-but don't ever use it against us. Furthermore, we have technology to determine, if a nuke is used against us, the type of nuclear material and from where it was manufactured by analyzing the fallout-all uranium and plutonium has a "signature" so if a weapon was sneaked in the U.S by Iran and used science can determine the point of origin of the nuclear material. Furthermore, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to smuggle a nuke in this country due to the incredible countermeasures in existence used by NEST. I can say that it is about impossible to do. Back to Iraq, we need to continue the pressure on this administration and force President Bush's polls to sink causing the public (which is now more and more against the war) to place pressure on Congress.

[arana]

One cannot support the troops and be against the war in Iraq at the same time. I'm against the war and I'm actively working to undermine the effort through legal activism. Thus, if I'm protesting the war, then I cannot support the troop effort there. President Bush needs to let Iraq govern itself. Furthermore, the ultimate hypocrisy of our administration to tell Iran that they cannot continue their nuclear program while the U.S has thousands of nuclear warheads to include those in submarines patrolling the world's oceans shows how this administration is out of touch. The only thing President Bush had to say to Iran was that our policy of all or none (you use one weapon against us and we will destroy your country completely) which comes from the Cold War nuclear doctrine stands. It's ok for you, Iran, to develop nuclear technology-but don't ever use it against us. Furthermore, we have technology to determine, if a nuke is used against us, the type of nuclear material and from where it was manufactured by analyzing the fallout-all uranium and plutonium has a "signature" so if a weapon was sneaked in the U.S by Iran and used science can determine the point of origin of the nuclear material. Furthermore, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to smuggle a nuke in this country due to the incredible countermeasures in existence used by NEST. I can say that it is about impossible to do. Back to Iraq, we need to continue the pressure on this administration and force President Bush's polls to sink causing the public (which is now more and more against the war) to place pressure on Congress.
I dissagree to a point. I am against the war also but I support the people who were sent there blindly because it was their duty. They were sent by arrogant people who had their own agendas. How many children and loved ones of politicians are enlisted? How many of the people in government that agree with this war are encouraging their family and friends to go and fight for their country?:soapbox:

[nakedambrosia]

Arana, I love your soap box cartoon! And, I have to agree with a reply above that it would be better to view beauty, harmony, love an happiness on TV versus all of the war talk and threat of war. One should re-read Orwell's 1984, in which a society has to be in perpetual war to exist. 1984 is very prophetic, and is acting out right now. One should also read an old book "In Search of Enemies" by Agee (I think his first name is Phillipe) in which he describes a policy that a new enemy must be found by the U.S/CIA when an old enemy is eliminated. It sounds very much like 1984. Also, I agree with an earlier post that glamorizing the military must cease. Young people fall in that trap then later find out how gritty and ugly war can be. Mars always shows his power through beautiful armor, flags, medals and glory. However, Mars never shows his dark side of desolation.

[nakedambrosia]

Arana, I love your soap box cartoon! And, I have to agree with a reply above that it would be better to view beauty, harmony, love an happiness on TV versus all of the war talk and threat of war. One should re-read Orwell's 1984, in which a society has to be in perpetual war to exist. 1984 is very prophetic, and is acting out right now. One should also read an old book "In Search of Enemies" by Agee (I think his first name is Phillipe) in which he describes a policy that a new enemy must be found by the U.S/CIA when an old enemy is eliminated. It sounds very much like 1984. Also, I agree with an earlier post that glamorizing the military must cease. Young people fall in that trap then later find out how gritty and ugly war can be. Mars always shows his power through beautiful armor, flags, medals and glory. However, Mars never shows his dark side of desolation.

[Michael623]

I was 18 at the height of the Viet Nam conflict. Being naive and from a conservative state like Wyoming I believed in what our government was telling us. Which was we had to stop communism at all cost. I tried to join the Marines, Army and finally the Navy, but was rejected for health problems. I knew, of course, several young men from my home town who were drafted and served, even a couple who lost their lives, one my best friend. The protesting of the conflict reached dramatic levels, which it should have, but along with the anger at our government for being there was a lack of support for our troops. These young men were thrown into a situation where they were trained to kill or be killed and the stories I heard were awful. They come home to their own people not embracing them for what they essentially were forced to do. I hate what Bush has done, but I do support those men and women who are over there fighting. 100%

[timsgfdmo]

Arana I think it is important to support the troops as individuals not as troops. Send your relatives and friends who have the misfortune of being there care packages and letters. The problem with Support the Troops is that Bush and the Chickenhawks have intertwined the war within the idea of support the troops. If you support the troops the way Bush wants you to you are supporting the war. How often have we heard the lie that to question the war hurts the troops. Dont support the troops instead support our children, fathers, mothers, sisters etc who are over there. Support them as individuals. Best way to support them is to get them home now.

Ambrosia you are dead right about about the military-industrial multi-national corporation complex that has become the United States. It has to always have an enemy. Look at the posturing about China. The only threat China is to the US is created by owing China large sums of money. If China wants to beat the US they stop buying US debt. China does not need a military to beat the US. The companies that build warships, submarines and airplanes do need China as a threat. The companies that build the types of weapons to fight China are not needed as much to fight terrorism. So those companies need a new threat. China spends a quarter of what the US does on the military. Historical lesson here. Japan commited suicide when it attacked the US. An attack by the way that the US forced Japan into making with its impossible diplomatic demands. Their cultural demands gave them no choice but to attack. Most wars are precipitated by incompetent and arrogant foreign relations. Japan got most of its oil and steel form the US. Japan was dependent upon the US. The US is dependent on China. The US could no more beat Chna in a war than Japan could have beaten the US in WWII. If this cycle of international militarism for corporate reasons is not broken the world will not have long to exist.


If Iran wants to cripple the US in response to a US attack it will set up an oil market in Euros. I have heard talk there is effort in this direction. Currently the world must buy oil in dollars. If it is possible to buy oil in Euros. These countries that hold US debt will no longer feel the need to have US dollars. If they dont need dollars they will see it not to their advantage to finance US debt. US economy cant survive without countries willing to finance US debt. Can you say massive devaluation of the dollar like what happened in Germany in the 20s or most of the countries of South America at one time or another.

Foreign borrowing by the US since 2000 has exceeded all aggregate foreign borrowing by the govt for the previous entire history of the US. Think about that fact. It is mind blowing. $11 billion a month in Iraq. All of it borrowed.

[MotherGoose]

I agree with Arana. It's not that my son-in-law, or anybody elses' loved one wants to be there, but he didn't really have a choice. So, I say we support the ones that ARE there and try to get them all back home safe and sound.

macy

[timsgfdmo]

Maclyn

It is their choice to join the military. Young people have had Vietnam and now Iraq and Afghanistan to show them that the govt can not properly decide when to use the armed forces and/or how best to accomplish its goals. I am talking about Tora Bora and allowing Bin Ladin to escape in reference to Afghanistan and the feckless attempt to get him since.

If a person in the military re-ups knowing the facts as they now stand it is their own fault if they end up in Iraq or Afghanistan. The quickest way to end the war since Congress refuses to exert any authority is for people to stop re-enlisting. That would force the US govt to institute a draft. A draft effects enough people so that there will have to be a national debate and decision on the war. There has not been a national debate with most people having something tangible at stake because we have a mercenary army instad of a citizen army. A democratic republic should have a citizen army where the costs of war are shared by all instead of a mercenary army where most people dont feel any cost of war.

[MotherGoose]

timsgfdmo, so, knowing everything that you know, why were you in the gulf war? Did you enlist, knowing what you know about the vietnam war?

My son in law (if you read my first post) was trying to retire. He is, as I said, quite a bit older than my daughter. She is 32, and he is 50.

It's not that he wanted to go, but let's say, TOLD he was going. He doesn't agree with Bush anymore than the next man.

I will still continue to support him and all of our military that are over there. And I can still say that I am PROUD of all of them and pray for their safe return home!

[timsgfdmo]

Maclyn,

Your son in law did not re-enlist. He is not responsible for being over there. If someone's enlistment expires and they are not under stop loss and they volunteer to re-enlist like thousands of Iraq and Afghanistan veterns have done then I have no sympathy for them. They are helping to continue this long national nightmare.

For me I thought Americans had learned their lessons from Vietnam, Watergate, and Nixon. What is going on today shows that Americans have ADD. We cant learn the simplest lessons about absolute power. Our founding fathers' bent over backwards to set up rules to prevent guys like Nixon and Bush from stealing the democracy. Our founding fathers could not foresee that their descendents would value money over their democracy. They also could not foresee the selfishness and the absolute cowardice of people willing to give up their rights because a proven lier says to do so will make them safer. We are a people who will allow other human beings to be kidnapped from other countries, held in prisons for years without any contact with their families with no judicial review of their case and have their limbs boiled, raped by dogs, beaten to death, left in solitary for months without clothing in cold cells, etc, etc. These are acts the Nazis would be proud of. A Senator says this and is browbeaten into apologizing for criticizing the troops. WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? WHERE ARE THE MILLIONS PROTESTING AT THE PENTAGON DEMANDING RUMSFELD TO RESIGN AND TURN HIMSELF OVER TO THE HAGUE FOR PROSECUTION AS A WAR CRIMINAL? We executed Japanese and Germans after WWII for doing what has been done by our troops. All this from a nation that claims to be Christian. I am ashamed I have ever worn the uniform of the country where I was born.

[nakedambrosia]

Tim, something you wrote rings a big bell with me. The word debt, which is horribly out of control in the public and private sector of the U.S is the key word which perpetuates the endless state of war. The old thinking (which continues in the Bush Administration) is that war will provide jobs through manufacturing and contracts. This is old 1950's thinking which is kept alive by dinosaurs such as Rumsfeld. This is the classic 1984 mindset that a war needs to be fueled to keep a society prosperous. As you see in the news, the Bush administration has brought attention to the nuclear "threat" in Iran. Slowly, insiduously, they are setting up the next war, just like with China, setting up the dominos for a next conflict. One has to carefully listen to the talk and analyze it in depth. Through very subtle propaganda, and continuous news coverage of potential "threats" people who are not savy get pulled into the talk and eventually believe the "leader". Fear and the threat of "possible" or "imminent" attacks skillfully manipulates the minds of the citizens until critical mass is reached and everyone screams "attack!". That's when the "leader" knows it has his people who will supply a fresh batch of their young children to a "new" war effort. It is very subtle, very skillfull, very terrifying, and people need to wake up because the ones profiting are not the Joe Six Packs out there but the leaders of a huge industrial complex which is willing to fuel the next war with materiel.
Your comment on Iran's oil issue is right on- it is a weapon which could be used but one has to again be careful: who is provoking? The U.S of course, with its dictates. Provoke, and cause a reaction from another country, which will cause a counter reaction all the way to war once again.
Tim, I'm afraid that we are living 1984. If it continues, we might face a conflict in the near future of devastating proportion. However, don't expect your industrial CEO's to be around-they will be on their yachts in warm lush places around the world sipping martinis!

[timsgfdmo]

Ambrosia,

The sad thing is the need for constant war to propel the US economy is true. Every President and Congress since Reagan including Clinton has been an advocate of free world trade not fair world trade. This has caused the US manufacturing base to disappear. What can you think of that we produce that other countries want? After the tech bubble burst in 2000 what did the US do to end the recession? They grew the Dept of Defense, sold more weapons overseas and created the Dept of Homeland Security. Bush poured money into weapons and war to drag us out of recession. A recovery not felt by most because it was limited to weapons and war making. Interest rates were also kept low so Americans who had seen their salaries decline would not feel so poor. Money spent on weapons provides less recirculation through the economy than money spent on infrastructure or industries that produce something that can be used by consumers. One of the few manufacturing industries that is left in the US are companies that produce weapons or materials used for weapons. These companies and the US need war and instability to thrive. The US is by far the largest weapons seller in the world. The nearly unabated growth of the weapons industry since the 1940s has totally changed the character of the United States. The UK last year actually cut defense spending in this era of terror. Why? Because the UK has almost no domestic arms industry. There were few British owned companies profitting from weapons sales to lobby their govt. The UK govt looked at what they needed in weapons objectively and bought just that amount because all the money they spent went out of the country and benefitted others. In the US weapons sales including sales to the UK benefits Americans. War is our business and business is good. Sad but true. I dont know what will change it. I know what changed Germany and Japan. Live by the sword die by the sword. I hope Americans can learn the lesson without an experience like that.

This instability is also great for the oil industry. Just an extra perk from corporate militarism for Bush's friends.

[chook]

I hope all you people have spared a thought and prayer for all the other troops from other countries who's govenments seem fit to be brainwashed by Bush and his cronnies, as an Aussie I feel for all the troops wether they be American or British or Australian but lets not forget that these men and women are only doing what they are told and lets hope this time the troops get a better reception when they are finally called home than the poor buggers that made it home from Vietnam did.

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[smokey]

As a veteran I certianly support our troops no matter where they serve BUT I do not support the war in Iraq or the reasons given for it, they are not fighting for our freedoms or rights there no matter what lies we are told; nor to I support this deeply corrupt and immoral administration. According to fanatics on the right that means I hate America and all I have to say is bullshit on that. If you really want to support our troops push your congresspeople to vote for veterans benefits, VA hospital funding and proper supplies in the field. Bush is long on reteroic and short on both compassion and action....unless of course it benefits his owners.

P.S. NakedAmbrosia of course you can support the troops and be against the war...they are everyone's sons, daughters, husbands, wives, brothers and sisiters, they are doing their job rightly or wrongly as they vowed that they would do which is right and honorable. Not supporting Bush or the war is another matter. Those men and women are between iraq and a hard place (sorry couldn't resist the pun) and the many who have convinced themselves that they are doing the right thing is only natural...if they didn't they would go mad.

[timsgfdmo]

Chook,

Troops not being responsible for their actions was the defense of the Nazis. America is supposed to be a democratic republic. That is all a sham if it's citizens have no choice about participating in war. The easy choice is to not re-enlist. A democracy cant fight a war it's citizens wont support. Brave patriots need to turn their talk about not supporting the war into action. Those generals who have spoken out and Powell are such cowards to not have said no at the time they had power. Taking action is the only way that the citizens can end this war. Congress is a sham. In Vietnam soldiers fragged their officers refused assignments in the later phases. The disintegration of the army was a big factor in the war being ended. I am not saying soldiers need to do that. With the volunteer army all they have to do is not volunteer. This war is so much easier than Vietnam was for the citizen to end directly.

[chook]

Tim,

Regardless of who thinks what about who all wars are big business, but what I was trying to say, even though these men and women from whatever country they come from took the oath to protect and defend their land for whatever cause or reason and basically all I'm saying is give these men and women the respect that they deserve when they come home. I saw what happened to the Vietnam Vets here in Australia, they were treated no better than murderers and they didnt deserve that and it took over twenty five years for them to be accepted back into society literaly. But in my opinion I reckon Bush is pissing up the wrong tree in Iraq.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Michael623]

Timsgfdmo, based on what you are saying, I am assuming you aren't driving your vehicle and are walking.

[timsgfdmo]

Michael,

So your saying that America cant have an economy without a military industrial complex? Lots of countires do it. The US did it before WWII. If you are saying that the wars are neccessary to protect oil then please explain how the US was able to secure the oil supply from 1945 to 1991 without putting land forces in the Persian Gulf? Al-Quaida launched no terrorist atacks at the US prior to 1991. What happened in 1991? US troops were permanently based in the Persian Gulf. The US Navy protected the supply of oil with a small base in Bahrain up to 1991 with out angering Bin Ladin or anybody else. Hell, the Navy's operations in the Persian Gulf were largely unnoticed in the US. So troops in Iraq are really acting as a force of stability in the world oil markets? With oil at $72 a barrel I dont think it is working. The US invasion of Iraq has insured that all that Iraqi oil is not on the market. Iraqi oils sales now are less than during the sanctions.

You dont have to have troops in Iraq to get oil. It is foolish to think you do. Their sheiks want to sell it as bad as we want to buy it. If the market for oil disappears then they have to leave their air conditioned palaces and go back outside and live the nomadic life style they lived before oil.

[timsgfdmo]

Chook,

If they re-enlist then they are part of the problem and deserve no sympathy or support. They need to find a new occupation. They are endangering the world with their occupation choice becuase of who our current president is. They need to look at their situation the same way that the airline pilots did after 9/11 when huge numbers of them got laid off never to work again in thier field. Those pilots have had to find new careers. Soldiers need to look at quitting as a patriotic duty and a cost they need to pay to return stability to the world. If president's cant count upon soldiers to execute inmoral orders then president's will think really hard about every war instead of assuming obediance to any orders.

If your neighbor became a hit man to support his family would you be ok with that? I mean he is filling a need. There are businesses and people willing to pay people to knock off spouses or blackmailers, etc. How is that different if you are saying the wars are not about national security but are instead about business. As long as people dont change the way they think they should never expect the world to get better. These wars will never end and more inncocent people will get maimed and killed. I want better.

If Germans had had moral courage the holocaust would never have occuured. If Hitler's lieutenants had gotten together when Hitler proposed the idea and said no then the holocaust would have been stopped. Had that not occurred the German people could have stopped it by refusing to assist the process by being guards or supplying food or refusing to fight in the war. Everybody in Germay knew what was going on. Had the Catholic Church spoke up it would not have occurred. It would not have been easy to say no and might have cost them some of their lives but the holocaust was not possible without willing participants. I am not comparing the war in Iraq to the holocaust or US soldiers to Nazis but the principle of how you stop a govt action is the same. Segregation ended in the US because people refused to follow the rules. Laws were changed only after people forced it by refusing to follow the rules. People have to act to make the world a moral place.

[JohnnyV]

Sorry to jump in on this discussion at the last minute.

The key thing is not to think of "supporting the troops" as if all troops are the same person. Some people who sign up for the military are good people who don't want to commit violence but will do so for a higher cause. Other people who sign up for the military are sick individuals who will kill anything for the thrill of it. It's impossible to generalize.

I don't like when people ask me to support "the troops" or not support "the troops" because, as in anything else, there are some whom I'd support and others whom I don't even like, let alone support.

In my view the invasion of Iraq was unethical by any standard human society has produced in 3,000 years; glaring evidence of this is the fact that virtually the whole world, including our two closest neighbors, refused to participate in it. Spain, Italy, and Britain went in against the support of a majority of their population.

Soldiers who have gone off to Iraq believing all the falsehoods promoted by the government and really imagining that they can improve a society by bombing and shooting at it -- those troops I do NOT support. Not because they're troops, but because they're mentally deficient and dangerous and I wouldn't support them as fellow civilians in any civilized society. The fact that they are facing danger and making sacrifices for some misguided concept of freedom means zero to me.

On the other hand, soldiers who understand that this war is improper, but who are there to fulfill an obligation, and who understand that Iraqis are human beings with a culture different from our own -- those troops I DO support, and I am glad that some of them are there on the ground, because they can act as a voice of reason in every day settings.

What's important is to understand that soldiers are individuals with different levels of intelligence and ethics. Regardless, though, each soldier is ultimately responsible for his own acts, and if he commits an atrocity or fails to stop an atrocity from happening -- whether it be out of ignorance or fear -- he does no deserve our support at all. He deserves, on the contrary, our admonition.

J

[Sparks]

Thank you all for your care, support and cogent replies to my original post. I do not believe in this was. We accomplished to goal. We don't understand their culture at all. We didn't understand the culture in South East Asia either. Let's now get our kids home safely. NOW!

[nakedambrosia]

To place a "finishing touch" to this interesting debate, I would like to add that all parents, especially fathers, and relatives such as uncles not glorify war and the military to young children and teens because "they had such a good time in the military". Glorifying war to young minds is a form of programing which could, in many instances, cause a young man or woman to join the military because "it's the patriotic thing to do." Parents need to concentrate on creating a stock fund for college when their children are young. They need to secure a future which is not dependant on the military because of the GI bill. They need to not glorify their military past in glowing terms. Such actions will stop enlistements drastically.

[Michael623]

I agree with what you are saying about the war timsggdmo but not about supporting the men and woman fighting there. My statement about assuming you are walking is to follow your logic that people have the ability to stop what goernment does. I am assuming you are walking to use your power to bring down gas prices, and anything other agenda you might have. Certainly you have parked your vehicle.

[timsgfdmo]

Michael,

My statements have not been about bringing down the cost of oil. My statements have been about ending an illegal invasion. Every country in the world has cars. Just because a nation has cars doesnt mean it has to invade Iraq. These other countries have figured out a way to have transportation without war. By your logic if we are against the war we should disconnect our houses from electricity and gas, ride horses and start wearing cotton and wool clothes. That is a false choice just like what the right wing neocons tried to use as a reason for war anyway. By the way I do not own an SUV. I never have owed one.

I am sure you have heard the story of Brazil's energy independence. Driving a car does not mean you support the war in Iraq. If the US had wanted to improve the world's oil supplies it would never had invaded Iraq. It instead would have left Hussein in charge and removed the sanctions so that Iraq's oil would have made it to the market. The US govt does not want cheap oil. Dont you recall the energy policy was devised by oil companies?

[Michael623]

But use your power to stand up and fight it timsgfdmo. You are asking people to do that with this war. Why not other areas of concern as well.