Ahem...

[TaylorMade]

Kippy, you have to decide to not let the judgements of others effect you, just as I did. They blindly follow a cruel vain petty misogynistic bloodthirsty tyrannical god who commits and/or condones murder, rape, genocide, incest, human sacrifice and many others. Religion is a poison on the planet. The ones that think like those around you are responsible for the crusades, the inquisition, the holocaust. Ask yourself why "acts of god" are never good things. They deny the rights of millions of Americans because they believe that homosexual intercourse is icky. They are the ones that should be ashamed of their behavior, not you.

You say that you've been fine without a woman lover for the past year because you have your boyfriend. I presume that this means that you and he are sexually active. Why is he okay with ignoring that part of the bible? Why is he allowed to pick and choose which passages are applicable? Also, just because you've been fine for the past year, do you know that you'll be fine for the rest of your life? I urge you to not box yourself into a life of bondage. ( Unless you're into that sort of thing in which case we should talk :bigrin: )

If religion is behind the holocaust, then atheism caused the killing fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Fields), Cultural Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution), and the Reign of Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reign_of_Terror), and the holodomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor).

Inaccurate, you say? Then so are the statements that you've made, accusing religion of everything from the holocaust to why your car won't start.

Religion itself is not the primary cause OR primary solution for human ills. Humans are. There is a reason why St. Augustine said "The church is a whore..." She has followed after politics and power and has allowed herself to be used by people for their own ends. And it is wasn't religion. . .it would be some other force, as I've shown with the other major blots of history shown here.

It's an easy road to blame religion...in your case, mostly Christianity, which is kinda understandable (considering your location), but unfair, considering in recent years, it's radicalized Islam that has truly made a bloodbath of our kind.

But in our crusade against religion, may we not become the self-righteous pricks that you ran away from.

Welcome to the site, though.

*Taylor*

[bensonmum65]

So you think I should pick a world view based on the body count? Nice. Religion isn't the problem. God is.

[TaylorMade]

And if God is such a problem, I guess we should take back Dr. Kings or Desmond Tutu's Nobel prize or pretend that Deitrich Bonehoffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer) didn't exist, or William Lloyd Garrison or John Brown were flukes. These men perceived themselves to be motivated by God. . .and we wouldn't have as good of a world without them.

God isn't the problem. People are ... we can be downright rotten w/o him AND with Him.


*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

So you think I should pick a world view based on the body count? Nice. Religion isn't the problem. God is.

No..you miss my point. I'm saying that to pin humanities problems on God or a worldview is an ignorant move.

Humans have the right to choose their paths...and take responsibility for them.

*Taylor*

[bensonmum65]

God isn't the problem. People are ... we can be downright rotten w/o him AND with Him.

Tell that to the third of europe that suffered and died from the black plague.

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

[TaylorMade]

Tell that to the third of europe that suffered and died from the black plague.
That's a disease caused by human acts and accidents. In the end, we wouldn't have had the Renaissance and the Enlightenment without it...and in the Enlightenment, that actually allowed for free-thought and atheism to flower. You were saying...?


"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

That would be a great argument if I had said atheists and atheists alone had the capability to act immorally. But I didn't. I'm saying EVERYONE has the capability to be immoral...and to blame it on religion would make just as much sense as me blaming it on atheism.


*Taylor*

[bensonmum65]

That would be a great argument if I had said atheists and atheists alone had the capability to act immorally. But I didn't. I'm saying EVERYONE has the capability to be immoral...and to blame it on religion would make just as much sense as me blaming it on atheism.


*Taylor*

Fair enough. But my point that your fictional god is neither good nor moral has not been and cannot be disproved.

[TaylorMade]

Fair enough. But my point that your fictional god is neither good nor moral has not been and cannot be disproved.

I've proved that HUMANS are capable of good or evil, all the acts we've mentioned before the black plague are HUMAN acts...and if the black plague is your evidence that God is not good or moral...you're on shaky ground. There was plenty of opportunity for the bubonic plague to have been stopped, but through human intervention and ignorance, it was not.

And if God were truly not good, you would not have the ability to challenge His existence or contradct His wishes. We would be like the slave creatures on Darkseid's planet of Apokolyps, toiling endlessly and painfully -- denied free will to fuck up as we wish.


*Taylor*

[bensonmum65]

I've proved that HUMANS are capable of good or evil

No argument.


if the black plague is your evidence that God is not good or moral...you're on shaky ground.

No, I have plenty of evidence of this from your own bible. You would rightly call me evil if I took a wild animal to a playground and unleashed it on the children there but god himself did just that to 42 children that had the gall to tease a prophet. (II Kings 2:23-24) He struck a man dead for masturbating. (Genesis 38:9) He ordered a man executed for picking up sticks (presumably to light a fire to cook food for his family) on the sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). He condoned genocide (Numbers 31:7,17) and human sacrifice (Numbers 31:40). I could go on but I trust that you get my point.


And if God were truly not good, you would not have the ability to challenge His existence or contradct His wishes. We would be like the slave creatures on Darkseid's planet of Apokolyps, toiling endlessly and painfully -- denied free will to fuck up as we wish.

That's just absurd. You're suggesting that the only reason that I have the ability to question the existence of and the nature of god is that he gave me that ability? Because it can't be that we evolved reason and intellect. In any case, how can god endow one with a morality he himself lacks? You cannot give what you do not own.

[TaylorMade]

]No argument.

No, I have plenty of evidence of this from your own bible. You would rightly call me evil if I took a wild animal to a playground and unleashed it on the children there but god himself did just that to 42 children that had the gall to tease a prophet. (II Kings 2:23-24) He struck a man dead for masturbating. (Genesis 38:9) He ordered a man executed for picking up sticks (presumably to light a fire to cook food for his family) on the sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). He condoned genocide (Numbers 31:7,17) and human sacrifice (Numbers 31:40). I could go on but I trust that you get my point.


I noticed you only stayed in the Old Testament to provide these examples.;)

Christ just wasn't mean enough for you, was He? Yeah, all that peace and love and mercy - -couldn't take it.

In many cases, these people violated the law or a direct command from God. Condoning genocide...usually that was done because the other people would have annhilated Israel first. Warfare was not pretty in the Bronze age. Life was short and cheap. People were considered grown from the age of 14 on, something that to our modern minds isn't entirely conceivable. And numbers 31:40 doesn't say they were sacrificed or killed...Did you mean earlier in the chapter where the men eligible to fight were killed? If that's what you meant...that was SOP for every tribe at that time. They merely say they were given to God...which means they could have been working in the temple.



That's just absurd. You're suggesting that the only reason that I have the ability to question the existence of and the nature of god is that he gave me that ability? Because it can't be that we evolved reason and intellect. In any case, how can god endow one with a morality he himself lacks? You cannot give what you do not own.

If you want to play that game, why not? I didn't say we don't have the capability to reason, but I am saying that if you're positing God is this much of an overwhelming problem and an asshole ... like an asshole, he'd of eliminated his problem. (tongue firmly in cheek)

I'm having fun here... anyone else?

*Taylor*

[bensonmum65]

I noticed you only stayed in the Old Testament to provide these examples.;)

Christ just wasn't mean enough for you, was He? Yeah, all that peace and love and mercy - -couldn't take it.



Fine.


I and My Father are One


Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Still think Christ and God are distinct personae?

[bensonmum65]

but I am saying that if you're positing God is this much of an overwhelming problem and an asshole ... like an asshole, he'd of eliminated his problem. (tongue firmly in cheek)

That might be true if he actually existed. Problem is, he doesn't.

[MarieDelta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGsrH4ysko

[AdamKadmon43]

I don't really know much about the existence or non-existence of god, but it would seem to me that the notion of a personal god directly involved in the affairs of humans is a rather amazingly over-simplistic approach to what appears to be a very vast and complex Universe. I suspect that things may be a great deal more complicated than we realize.

One hundred billion galaxies each containing one hundred billion stars would seem to me to be a bit of over-kill just to produce a planet of humans whose sole purpose is to worship god.

And I really don't understand why we would worship a god who allows about a million innocent little children to die every year in Africa from malaria when he could easily prevent it if he is so all-powerful. Must have something to do do with Free Will, I suppose.

Such a god may be worthy of fear, but he is certainly not worthy of love or worship or respect.

[TaylorMade]

That might be true if he actually existed. Problem is, he doesn't.

Didn't anyone tell you can't prove a negative?

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

Fine.
Still think Christ and God are distinct personae?

Yes... and no.

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGsrH4ysko


:D I'm STILL having fun here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUW61C_0uow) I love you Marie... but Morgan Freeman! DUDE...

*Taylor*

[void()]

Taylor,

I applaud you saying humans can foul things, and ought to take such responsibility.

That aside, I do have a little question regarding Free Will. This is one of those bits what keeps me away from gods, all of them.

Christianity teaches God gave us each Free Will. But it also teaches God knows everything. He knows I choose to live free of all gods, inclusive of Him, even beforehand?

If he is all knowing, then yes He would know this. And He would know it before I was even a twinkle in my daddy's eye.

Where is Free Will in that?

The whole crock seems contrived and decided if you follow the logic. So what point does Free Will serve?

Curious for a reply, and no not in the asshole being a troll sense. I like good open and intelligent discussion. I respect your right to be as you choose, and have faith. I have it as well, just call it imagination & hope.

[TaylorMade]

Taylor,

I applaud you saying humans can foul things, and ought to take such responsibility.

That aside, I do have a little question regarding Free Will. This is one of those bits what keeps me away from gods, all of them.

Christianity teaches God gave us each Free Will. But it also teaches God knows everything. He knows I choose to live free of all gods, inclusive of Him, even beforehand?

If he is all knowing, then yes He would know this. And He would know it before I was even a twinkle in my daddy's eye.

Where is Free Will in that?

The whole crock seems contrived and decided if you follow the logic. So what point does Free Will serve?

Curious for a reply, and no not in the asshole being a troll sense. I like good open and intelligent discussion. I respect your right to be as you choose, and have faith. I have it as well, just call it imagination & hope.

I think God knows, but knows that were were OTHER outcomes available. Like your choose your own adventure novel (I loved the hell out of those) You just chose outcome #3C. I think God is highly aware not just of what IS , but what could be, and what may be elsewhere? I believe in the concept of parallel universes where maybe Man didn't make it to the moon, or superheroes exist.


*Taylor*

[Long Duck Dong]

Taylor,

I applaud you saying humans can foul things, and ought to take such responsibility.

That aside, I do have a little question regarding Free Will. This is one of those bits what keeps me away from gods, all of them.

Christianity teaches God gave us each Free Will. But it also teaches God knows everything. He knows I choose to live free of all gods, inclusive of Him, even beforehand?

If he is all knowing, then yes He would know this. And He would know it before I was even a twinkle in my daddy's eye.

Where is Free Will in that?

The whole crock seems contrived and decided if you follow the logic. So what point does Free Will serve?

Curious for a reply, and no not in the asshole being a troll sense. I like good open and intelligent discussion. I respect your right to be as you choose, and have faith. I have it as well, just call it imagination & hope.

I am not a christian but

the knowledge of all that you will say and do and the free will to do as you will say and do......are two seperate things

foresight is the knowledge of consequences, events etc...... that will shape what we may think and do..... but free will is what we will say and do, however society, not god, is the one that restricts free will, with laws and rules and punishments......

god will judge you according to your heart,......not your words or actions, on judgment day.......according to the bible

the reasoning for that, is our actions and words are not always true to what is in our hearts....and so you can get a man that can get freely to charity every year and be called a generous benefactor..... yet the guy could only really care about the tax credits from giving to charity....

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Damn. I guess I didnt get the memo about the Holy War starting. Carry on, ya'll.
Cat

[TaylorMade]

Damn. I guess I didnt get the memo about the Holy War starting. Carry on, ya'll.
Cat

Aw, this is just a sacred skirmish. I've been through holy wars.

*Taylor*

[AdamKadmon43]

The whole damn mess is so contrived and ridiculous that I can not imagine how anyone with more than half a brain could possible believe in any of it.

Just tell them something for long enough... and I guess they will come to accept it.

[citystyleguy]

...was wondering where this thread of two was going; glad to see that others stepped in!

as to the basic suppostion, does man or does religion cause the uglies of the world, is essentially the egg/chicken argument; as one created the other in order to explain why one created the other, mmmh, a mighty slippery slope to hang one's argument.

read all the hate media, declaring that this hellstorm of destruction was/is demanded by the chosen godhead, all done to cleanse their respective hands from the resulting bloodshed; so who to blame?

persoanlly, i believe that only the individual can make their own judgement as to what path we lead, and in the end, that which has been left in our wake, is what others will judge us by; so be careful where you step, invoke whatever helps you to sleep at night, but always remember that it was you that walked that chosen path.

...and it is you that is ulitmately responsible for you! :2cents:

[bensonmum65]

Didn't anyone tell you can't prove a negative?

*Taylor*

So when's the last time you talked to Santa Claus? I know that I can't prove god doesn't exist any more than you can prove that he does. I choose freedom from dogma and hate. I choose to be unfettered by belief in that which I cannot experience. I choose liberation from religious tyranny. I choose to not be told what I choose.

[TaylorMade]

So when's the last time you talked to Santa Claus? I know that I can't prove god doesn't exist any more than you can prove that he does. I choose freedom from dogma and hate. I choose to be unfettered by belief in that which I cannot experience. I choose liberation from religious tyranny. I choose to not be told what I choose.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs042.snc4/34481_141664902513341_100000094964069_424422_80057 64_n.jpg
I believe it was two years ago. ;)

Then why did you definitively say He didn't exist before?

Either way, it seems you haven't quite shaken the freedom from the usual rhetoric. Different beliefs, same intolerance, is what I'm seeing.

*Taylor*

[Pasadenacpl2]

I note a ton of inconsistent arguments and fallacies being used here. The one that struck me was this:

Benson said, essentially: Your God is evil.
Taylor said: The proof that he is not evil is that you have free will.
To which Benson replied: That's not proof he is good. After all, God doesn't exist.

This is inconsistent. If you make the statement that X is evil (or not good), then by the definition of the argument you concede that X exists. To then state, when given a refutation of the inherent good or evilness of X, that X does not exist you have ignored the precept of the original argument. If X does not exist then X cannot be evil. For the duration of the argument, to remain consistent, we must agree that X exists, even if it is only for the sake of having a logical argument. This is possible to do, even if one does not believe that X exists. It is the basis for the common saying "for the sake of argument..."

I find that many militant Atheists use this line of reasoning when presented with something they cannot argue against. It is a pity that so many people read Dawkins. It is almost as obvious when they have as when our resident troll gets a new account. They use the same verbiage and same arguments time after time. The sad thing is, our troll is just one guy. The Evangelical Atheists are many in number, and yet they all sound the same.

Quit reading Dawkins. Not because he's an atheist, but because he's a hack and uses faulty logic streams.

Pasa

[void()]

I think God knows, but knows that were were OTHER outcomes available. Like your choose your own adventure novel (I loved the hell out of those) You just chose outcome #3C. I think God is highly aware not just of what IS , but what could be, and what may be elsewhere? I believe in the concept of parallel universes where maybe Man didn't make it to the moon, or superheroes exist.


*Taylor*

Sure but He still knows all of that. So, it just furthers a really fatalistic view without any True Free Will. As in you are truly free to choose whatever course of action you desire, irregardless of consequence.

LDD: It's all the same really. Society could be seen as the Draoi (Druid) term Tues, which meant clan or family. It got started as a means of defense even though there is great proof nomadic lives are safer from lots of various diseases and aliments found in our modern society.

What you do and say, is what you do and say. There's no defining it to be otherwise. I didn't make distinction of public action/word and private action/word. So, what you do or say is just that.

Weighed against the Bible? Not to sound like the militant Atheist in thread but, that's beyond reproach as a farce. If i don't believe in it wholesale, its standards do not apply to me in any way. And I don't because of reading a great deal, exploring, meditation, discussion with various clergy etc. None of it proved out Christianity for me.

Don't get me wrong, the core teaching of love others as you love yourself is a great one, worthy of noting. But then you've got all these other atrocities as well, no? And no Free Will only to illusion of it. Sort of like America offers the illusion of Freedom.

[rissababynta]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs042.snc4/34481_141664902513341_100000094964069_424422_80057 64_n.jpg
I believe it was two years ago. ;)

Then why did you definitively say He didn't exist before?

Either way, it seems you haven't quite shaken the freedom from the usual rhetoric. Different beliefs, same intolerance, is what I'm seeing.

*Taylor*

lmfao

[Pasadenacpl2]

Sure but He still knows all of that. So, it just furthers a really fatalistic view without any True Free Will. As in you are truly free to choose whatever course of action you desire, irregardless of consequence.

LDD: It's all the same really. Society could be seen as the Draoi (Druid) term Tues, which meant clan or family. It got started as a means of defense even though there is great proof nomadic lives are safer from lots of various diseases and aliments found in our modern society.

What you do and say, is what you do and say. There's no defining it to be otherwise. I didn't make distinction of public action/word and private action/word. So, what you do or say is just that.

Weighed against the Bible? Not to sound like the militant Atheist in thread but, that's beyond reproach as a farce. If i don't believe in it wholesale, its standards do not apply to me in any way. And I don't because of reading a great deal, exploring, meditation, discussion with various clergy etc. None of it proved out Christianity for me.

Don't get me wrong, the core teaching of love others as you love yourself is a great one, worthy of noting. But then you've got all these other atrocities as well, no? And no Free Will only to illusion of it. Sort of like America offers the illusion of Freedom.

You have free will, not just the illusion.

God is all knowing. He knows what you will do, but makes no move to stop you. That is free will. His knowing what you will do is a quality of his being.

To say that His knowing what you do makes your free will a mere illusion is like saying that because I see you that you aren't truly free. If one is an omiscient being, knowing what will happen is just like any of our senses.

Unless, of course, you believe in Schrodinger's cat, which is a silly bit of "science".

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

Well here goes - I am sure to get flamed over this, but I am doing it anyways.

Some possible scenarios -

1.God exists and is the God of the Bible -

He is a complete and utter bastard. Based on the biblical teachings, he created us , knew we would fail, and allowed it. Then he punished us for these failings.

He has repeated this over and over. Set up for failure, like the ultimate incompetent Dom. There is no chance to succeed, and the only thing he desires is your pain all the while repeating over and over that he loves you like an abusive father figure.

There is no questioning this God, he only expects your blind devotion. Because to question is to lack faith. Faith being the belief in something that cannot be proved. He also expects that you would worship nothing other than him. All the while supplying no proof that he even exists.


2. God exists but the people who wrote the bible did so with their somewhat limited understanding (and also a more than a bit of nationalism.)

He is somewhat loving but not so personal. We must admit we dont really know what we think we do about this entity and are forced to look elsewhere for answers.

This God may or may not want our worship. Our limited understanding is only two removes away from being that of our barbaric ancestors.

This God may have created us with the expectation we would grow and question. He doesnt expect your blind worship, but he isnt going to step in and alleviate your suffering either as that is part of your growth as a person.

This God does not choose to communicate with us, even though it's clearly within his powers as the ultimate being.




3. God doesnt exist at all. We are the result of a "happy" accident. Like mold growing in the petri dish, we exist, there is no afterlife (or reincarnation) and our limited understanding of this world is all there is.



Now I'm sure there are other scenarios that are possible. These are the only ones that seem viable to me at the moment.

[RobUK]

People, people!

There is NO point in atheists trying to convince the religious that there is no god - NOR is there any point in the religious trying to convince atheists of god's existence.

Lets just accept that everyone has their own personal beliefs, accept them, and move on... You're flogging a dead horse here.

Rob
:three:

[TaylorMade]

lmfao

Adage that is supposedly some rule in law school: Never ask a question you do NOT know the answer to. Because they just might have a picture of them with Santa somewhere.



People, people!

There is NO point in atheists trying to convince the religious that there is no god - NOR is there any point in the religious trying to convince atheists of god's existence.

Lets just accept that everyone has their own personal beliefs, accept them, and move on... You're flogging a dead horse here.

Rob
:three:


Rob: I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything...what tripped my trigger was the whole Angry Bitter Atheist thing. I left the church I grew up in because of Angry Bitter Christians...it just seems like they swap one dogma for another.

It's not the atheism I can't stand, it's the anger and bitterness over something one SWEARS does not exist, or in the case of Angry and Bitter Christians...something or some one you can't control. It brings out my "Hulk Smash!" instinct. Much like self-righteous people about smoking, being vegetarian or green...it just is like a red flag to a bull.

That's why (on the other hand) I was willing to dialog with Void...he just had some questions. They weren't perfect answers, but I gave 'em to the best of my knowledge.

*Taylor*

[void()]

"That's why (on the other hand) I was willing to dialog with Void...he just had some questions. They weren't perfect answers, but I gave 'em to the best of my knowledge."

And really that's all I asked. "Hey give me your honest take on def then, if you say xyz equates to abc." On my end, wasn't trying to be bitter or angry, or push non-belief onto anyone else. See? There are some atheists who while not caring to bow to gods, do reason that 'something' may yet be 'out there'.
No, it doesn't make that type agnostic, either. It means they can accept alternate perceptions as existing. Further they can be respectful of those.

Excuse me, rough night at work. Going to go crash until tomorrow afternoon.

[TaylorMade]

"That's why (on the other hand) I was willing to dialog with Void...he just had some questions. They weren't perfect answers, but I gave 'em to the best of my knowledge."

And really that's all I asked. "Hey give me your honest take on def then, if you say xyz equates to abc." On my end, wasn't trying to be bitter or angry, or push non-belief onto anyone else. See? There are some atheists who while not caring to bow to gods, do reason that 'something' may yet be 'out there'.
No, it doesn't make that type agnostic, either. It means they can accept alternate perceptions as existing. Further they can be respectful of those.

Excuse me, rough night at work. Going to go crash until tomorrow afternoon.

I hope I didn't come across as disrespectful of you because that was not my intent.

*Taylor*

[Doggiestyle]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs042.snc4/34481_141664902513341_100000094964069_424422_80057 64_n.jpg
I believe it was two years ago. ;)

Then why did you definitively say He didn't exist before?

Either way, it seems you haven't quite shaken the freedom from the usual rhetoric. Different beliefs, same intolerance, is what I'm seeing.

*Taylor*



Hey Taylor!?!?!? :bigrin:

Did you really get to sit on santas lap? :cool: Did you talk about the first thing that pop-ed up?? :eek: Did you say something like "uhhhhh - ahhhhhh I think I'm in heaven??? :love1: Did you tell santa that you were a good girl and that you wanted lots of new "toys" (with batteries) ???? :rolleyes:

People with inquiring (nosy) minds want to know, you know? So, I just thought that I would ask, in a joking kind of way now. You do understand don't you? :tong:

Your friend, :doggie:

[jamieknyc]

Unfortunately, this forum is a hostile environment for people of religious faith. Most posters are okay with it, but a small minority of intolerant atheists monoplizes all debate on the issue.

[void()]

Taylor disrespectful? No. There was no disrespect from either end here. We just engaged in an open discussion. We can agree to disagree on some things. Doesn't mean we need to be jerks or worse toward one another. That is called being mature adults. :)


"This forum is a hostile environment for people of religious faith."

Sorry you feel that. One thing which I am reminded of is the barber shop rule. And normally I adhere to it, save for times when there is actual mature and intelligent conversation. That's what I saw on the table here. So, yes I spoke and asked a few questions.

And yes, they may have been tainted a little as being hooks or barbs. I could not see a way clear to ask without them being. They are questions I ask of any religious folks though. And I find none can really answer them well.

That does not mean they are not answers. It just means the answers are difficult to find. I have hope they will be found. And that from me, is in and of itself a form of faith. Yes, it isn't faith as others have but it is still faith.

"A small minority of intolerant atheists monopolizes all debate on the issue."

A small minority also stood up to a king in order to win us the right to believe or not as we chose. There were twelve students and a master which created a Way that now dominates the world. Small groups are effective aren't they?

Again, I'm sorry for the perceived hostility. Please don't put me into that minority, though. You may find I can be less tolerant if you do. I am a tolerant person but people can only handle so much. I'm sure it is the same with you.

[TaylorMade]

Hey Taylor!?!?!? :bigrin:

Did you really get to sit on santas lap? :cool: Did you talk about the first thing that pop-ed up?? :eek: Did you say something like "uhhhhh - ahhhhhh I think I'm in heaven??? :love1: Did you tell santa that you were a good girl and that you wanted lots of new "toys" (with batteries) ???? :rolleyes:

People with inquiring (nosy) minds want to know, you know? So, I just thought that I would ask, in a joking kind of way now. You do understand don't you? :tong:

Your friend, :doggie:

LOL! :D This was in...'08.

Santa walked in, I gave him chocolate, one of my co-workers took a picture with my phone, and I told him I wanted a pony.

I got a pair of pink Pony Brand sneakers.

Next time I'm specifying. . .:p

*Taylor*

[Bluebiyou]

My dearest Taylor and Bensonmum,
Since this is a public forum I though I'd add two points.
One, in common Christian teaching, there is a devil. The devil is recognized as the evil one; the one who does terrible things. God is universally recognized as the creator, the one who does good.
As an interesting artifact, when a limb falls on a car or house; when a man is struck by lightning; when a flood rises and kills or destroys; we call that - an "act of God". Seems like it's Satan at work to me!
Secondly,
consider the 'big bang'. If one contemplates all physics, material, and time itself originating at one infinitely small and dense point, it begs the concept of true creation.
But as someone raised atheist, I have my reasons for respecting Bensonmum's position.

[niftyshellshock]

Herd all militant atheists and militant Christians into a large enough pen and have them go at each other.

The world would substantially improve.

[coyotedude]

A few questions and observations:

(1) Are we discussing humanity's general impulse for belief? Or are we criticizing a specific religious tradition - Christianity? To say that the God of the Christian Bible does not exist is not the same as saying God does not exist. God - or many gods - may conceivably exist even if the Christian Bible is complete fiction. Yet many people wrongly appear to focus on Christianity and Islam as if they represent the sum total of human religious belief and spiritual practice.

(2) The crux of many atheists' arguments appears to be that God cannot exist because God is an asshole. Yet I can attest to the fact that many assholes do in fact exist in this world. Whether God is in fact an asshole may be an interesting theological discussion, but the question is moot if God does not exist in the first place.

(3) That religions have been used over the years to justify atrocities is an acknowledged historical fact. But an honest reading of history gives another side to the story of religion. One cannot understand the motivations of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or Mahatma Gandhi, for one overused example, without understanding the role of belief and spirituality in their lives. (And yes, I am aware that neither of these individuals were perfect. They don't have to be perfect for my point to be valid.)

I think it's a perfectly fair question to ask whether God exists. I also think it's fair to question the historical impact of specific religious traditions over time. Yet I think we have to be careful not to mix the two questions.

Just my :2cents:

Peace