NY Times: "Transgendered" People Who Don't Out Themselves Are Immoral

[MarieDelta]

From Bilerico -

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/07/ny_times_transgendered_people_who_dont_out_themsel .php


Today's Sunday New York Times contains an article from "The Ethicist," Randy Cohen, entitled "When To Out A Transgendered Dater?"

Mr. Cohen, who has no reputable credentials in the field of ethics, suggests that transgender people have a responsibility to out themselves on a first date, and implies that their failure to do so is morally wrong. He compares transgender history to the case of sexually transmitted disease and adultery. He suggests, however, that notifying the local community via handbills or having local clergy announce it from the pulpit would be inappropriate.

This is dangerous nonsense. Hundreds of transgender people are murdered every year, and more subjected to violence, many from partners and potential partners. What is morally wrong and reprehensible is lending the credence of The New York Times to this idea.

Should a bisexual person out themselves on a first date, or a person with a history of cancer or mental illness or appendectomy, and if not, are they "bad" and "discreditable"?



The article itself:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/magazine/11FOB-Ethicist-t.html?_r=1


I am a straight woman, and I was set up on a date with a man. We got along well initially, but I grew concerned about how evasive he was about his past. I did some sophisticated checking online — I do research professionally — and discovered that he is a female-to-male transgender ed individual. I then ended our relationship. He and I live in Orthodox Jewish communities. (I believe he converted shortly after he became a man.) I think he continues to date women within our group. Should I urge our rabbi to out this person? NAME WITHHELD, N.Y.

Changed religion and sex? I feel emotionally exhausted if I get a new sport coat. But although this person behaved badly by not being more forthcoming with you, he is still entitled to some privacy. You should not prompt a public announcement about his being transgendered.

There are two questions here: What must close companions reveal to each other?And what may they reveal about each other to outsiders?

Getting to know someone is a gradual process. I might panic if on a first date someone began talking about what to name the nine kids she’s eager for us to raise in our new home under the sea. Premature disclosure can be as unnerving as protracted concealment. But as partners cultivate romance, and particularly as they move toward erotic involvement, there are things each should reveal, things they would not mention to a casual acquaintance — any history of S.T.D.’s, for example, or the existence of any current spouse. Even before a first kiss, this person should have told you those things that you would regard as germane to this phase of your evolving relationship, including his being transgendered. Clearly he thought you’d find it pertinent; that’s why he discreditably withheld it, lest you reject him.

As things stand, you have every right to talk this over with friends. We are entitled to discuss the most intimate aspects of our own lives — or what are friends for? But you may not distribute handbills around the neighborhood or ask your rabbi to announce this from the pulpit. Even when the clothes come off — especially when the clothes come off — we expect discretion from our partners. Few people (except perhaps the bitter foes of Tommy Lee or Paris Hilton) want sextapes, or even vivid verbal descriptions of their sexual peccadilloes, posted online. And that goes for being transgendered. We rely on our friends — and even more so partners — to respect our privacy, even if the relationship sours.


So what do you folks think?

Is it unethical for a transgender person not to out themselves on the first date?

Does it matter if they are pre or post op?

Obviously I out myself prior to the first date, simply because of my own safety. I dont want to be with someone who has issues, for whatever reasons, with my nature. However I can see a case for not telling, and especially if you suspect things aren't quite going to lead somewhere.

Perhaps after the operation it wont matter so much in that my outside will match my inside?

[transcendMental]

I want to hear what people think about this, too.

But I wanted to comment on this, too.


Even before a first kiss, this person should have told you those things that you would regard as germane to this phase of your evolving relationship, including his being transgendered. Clearly he thought you’d find it pertinent; that’s why he discreditably withheld it, lest you reject him.

Not everyone agrees on what is "germane". It's not true that his "withholding" his trans history means that he thought it germane.

You may have a birthmark on your thigh. You don't think about it much, but you know its there. Now you date this guy, and get to a point of intimacy with him. When the clothes come off, he sees your birthmark, and freaks out, because he finds it unattractive. He claims that you should have told him about this way earlier. He claims that you withheld this information from him because you knew he'd be upset by it, and you didn't want him to reject you.

But no, you just didn't mention it, because you didn't think it was important. Maybe it used to bother you when you were young, but you haven't thought much about it in years, and you consider yourself over any body shame it ever caused you.

Speaking as a transitioned transperson, I can say that my history as the opposite sex is increasingly irrelevant to me personally. I am coming to think of my gender issue as an issue resolved. Right now I don't mention it to new acquaintances, because it doesn't help them to understand who I am - it stands in the way of that. But I can see a point in the near future where I don't mention it to people just because it doesn't really occur to me. It's old history, and shouldn't impact our relationship.

Something that has bothered me for years and that I had no choice but to think about for years is finally fading into the distance. Must I be forced to continue thinking about it because the fact that I once had it may bother someone else?

tm

[tenni]

Again, a possible very complex issue or in fact several issues.

With regard to morality, I tend to shut down when someone proclaims not disclosing anything to someone else as immoral without being able to present and discuss the various angles of the issue(s). Ethics is somewhat different than making simple definitive statements about moral or immoral. It seems to me that "ethics" requires a much greater analysis of any question. An ethicist is capable of examining the question from many perspectives. I have found that those that tend to make black and white firm statements about right and wrong do not seem to be able to discuss the issue beyond...it is just wrong. That is my personal perspective and I have read such types of comments and approaches several times on this site.

Perhaps, the statement about "on a need to know basis" is best about disclosure whether it is about your sexual orientation or gender. I think that like many "first date" scenarios that each side is examining the other person. Both are learning about each other and trust has not been established. As we learn about the other person we are deciding whether to proceed in getting to know them or have sex with them or a multitude of decisions. For a bisexual the points of when to disclose may be quite different than for a trans person. To be trans and bisexual carries even more of a complex evaluation but we are all determining whether we have trust and what that other person will do. If you are not really interested in that person and have no desire to even have sex with them, what would be the point of disclosing sexuality or gender? If it has possibilities of a platonic friendship and trust has been established, then some form of disclosure may be helpful.

I believe that making such decisions are to be done on a case by case basis and I would tend to see it as inappropriate or possibly even "immoral" for that woman to "out" a transman. She has made her decision not to proceed in a relationship with him. She was rather investigative in how she dealt with him. That may tell us more about her than the transman. The fact that she sees it as her role to "out" shows a judgemental approach and placing herself in a position that no one has given her the right to be in. Beyond deciding not to proceed getting to know the transman, it is not her business.

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Hello Miss Marie;

I dont personally think it's "Immoral" but yes, a person should know the situation before even entering on a date, or relationship. For myself personally, I would think it is a safety issue. Let me explain why. I worked with a Trans-lady in L.A. She was so beautiful that those of us who knew her didnt think a thing about it; she Was female as far as any of us cared.
She met this man, and had put off meeting him for about three months. When they finally met, they were sitting in an expensive resturant and were having a fantastic time. One of her friends came up to the table and greeted her warmly. It was clear that her friend was Trans, and her date was stunned and appaled when her pal complimented her on how well she looked after her Trans surgery..

She told him that she was Post Op Trans, her operation had been 6 months prior, and he freaked on her right there in a crowded resturant. Got mad, yelled, screamed that she had decieved him, tried purposely to get in his pants, ect. He finally turned over the table, then threw the candle globe of hot wax-oil in her face, burning her badly.
She had to have surgery to restore her face and neck, and we were right there behind her the whole way.

I fear for Trans Friends who Dont tell prospective date before hand. I am so feared that something like this, or worse, would/could happen to another friend.

So I am not stateing that its Immorial, but I Am saying that in my personal opinion, its a wise thing to be up front at all times.

Kit

[MarieDelta]

Trans people and Trans activists love to say that if you're cisgender you're somehow transphobic or a bad person that's against trans people somehow.

.

Sorry? What?!?

Not everyone who is Cisgendered is transphobic. Nor do I think that its wrong for someone not to date a transperson.

I personally am grateful for every cisgender ally I have. There are many on this site and in the real world who would have no problem standing up for me.

However there is no need to discount someone's identity, or tell someone that they arent who they are because of gentitals.

There are other reasons that a man would not have a penis, however if you prefer your s with then whatever.

[Long Duck Dong]

oh shit....lol

I am honestly torn......

a trans person has transitioned to male or female, and that is how they see themselves.... so they should be allowed to be that gender........

the differcult part is when they form interhuman relations on a personal level..... then it arises the point of should a trans person out themselves and does the other person have a right to know.....
I could run down a few pros and cons on both sides.........

personally myself, if I was in the situation of dating a trans person, I would love to be able to know they are trans, and show that there is no issue, I embrace them fully as they are and wish to be seen..... but I bear in mind that not everybody thinks like me.......

people tend to see the trans aspect and forget that a trans person is still human... yet they will see a plastic breasted, cosmetic surgery enhanced, dressed up person as human.....

there is no clear cut answer, its on a case by case basis......

[transcendMental]

Thank you LDD for your post. I appreciate that you are torn, because these issues are not at all clear cut.

I know what you mean about wanting to know if your partner was trans, so you could be supportive, or let them know you aren't judgmental about it, and I appreciate your supportive stance. But in my case at least, I don't identify as trans, I identify as female. I don't want to be seen as a transperson, but have my partner be ok with that, I want to be seen as a woman. I don't think you can know that someone was once biologically male without it affecting on some level (at least unconsciously) how you view them and interact with them.

I do understand the realities, though, and honestly, I would probably share my history with anyone I got close enough to, and probably pretty early on. But doing that would come at a price, because it would change their perception of me in a way that would make me less comfortable, even if they were completely accepting. That is the perspective I wanted to share.

tm

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Well loves, this is why I keep stressing that honesty is the best policy. That way there's no deception, no confusion, and no one getting hurt. Be honest and be You at all times. :}
Cat

[transcendMental]

Well loves, this is why I keep stressing that honesty is the best policy. That way there's no deception, no confusion, and no one getting hurt. Be honest and be You at all times. :}
Cat

Cat, I think you miss the point.

To be Me, I tell people I am a woman.
To be honest, some say I have to tell people I'm trans, which prevents me from being my most authentic self.

The question this thread raises is whether it is necessarily deceptive not to tell someone that you're trans.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

[TaylorMade]

oh shit....lol

I am honestly torn......

a trans person has transitioned to male or female, and that is how they see themselves.... so they should be allowed to be that gender........

the differcult part is when they form interhuman relations on a personal level..... then it arises the point of should a trans person out themselves and does the other person have a right to know.....
I could run down a few pros and cons on both sides.........

personally myself, if I was in the situation of dating a trans person, I would love to be able to know they are trans, and show that there is no issue, I embrace them fully as they are and wish to be seen..... but I bear in mind that not everybody thinks like me.......

people tend to see the trans aspect and forget that a trans person is still human... yet they will see a plastic breasted, cosmetic surgery enhanced, dressed up person as human.....

there is no clear cut answer, its on a case by case basis......

Co-Sign. I admit I am not interested in dating trans people. . .but if a partner admitted it to me - - the relationship would change, but there would be no hostility.

*Taylor*

[transcendMental]

Co-Sign. I admit I am not interested in dating trans people. . .but if a partner admitted it to me - - the relationship would change, but there would be no hostility.

*Taylor*

Very honest reaction Taylor, thank you.

I am curious whether when you say, "I am not interested in dating trans people", you mean "I would prefer not to date transpeople," or if you mean it like you might mean "I am not interested in dating Jewish people". You would never seek them out, but fine if you wound up with one.

I can't imagine people seeking us out. But I also can't see why a person would specifically avoid us.

I really like your honesty in the line "the relationship would change". That's what I was getting at with LDD and Cat. I wouldn't want it to change, but it certainly would, even if there was no hostility. The relationship would have been at its most authentic before that change.

So I feel like I'm in a Catch-22 with respect to "be honest and be yourself". If I'm honest, then I'm no longer myself, and if I'm myself, I'm being dishonest.

Or am I?

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

No TM, I've already made my point. How people handle their particular situation is up to Them. I dont think Trans-folks intentionally decieve people, and do have the tact to tell a date/partner first that they are Trans. I feel that you're identifying as a woman is great, that's your perogitive. So keep on keepin' on, Girlfriend.
Cat :}

[Long Duck Dong]

Thank you LDD for your post. I appreciate that you are torn, because these issues are not at all clear cut.

I know what you mean about wanting to know if your partner was trans, so you could be supportive, or let them know you aren't judgmental about it, and I appreciate your supportive stance. But in my case at least, I don't identify as trans, I identify as female. I don't want to be seen as a transperson, but have my partner be ok with that, I want to be seen as a woman. I don't think you can know that someone was once biologically male without it affecting on some level (at least unconsciously) how you view them and interact with them.

I do understand the realities, though, and honestly, I would probably share my history with anyone I got close enough to, and probably pretty early on. But doing that would come at a price, because it would change their perception of me in a way that would make me less comfortable, even if they were completely accepting. That is the perspective I wanted to share.

tm

nods and hugs.......

the issue in my eyes, is not how you see yourself...... but any issues that can arise in the relationship that are unforeseen...... such as your past coming up..... and your partner is suddenly * hang on a sec, what the hell is going here "

as another trans person posted in another thread, they went for a job interview, and as a male, they had a long work history, as a female, they didn't....and having to disclose that fact may have cost them the job.... not cos they are trans, but you have one person submitting a resume under two different names, one male and one female......yet saying they are the same person

that is a aspect that can surface in a relationship..... your past.... and if your partner is not aware or prepared for that aspect, yes they can react......unfortunately that is what can lead to attacks on trans people..... as people may feel that while you are a lady.... you deliberately hid the fact that you have a different past and things were different and that you withhold that info from the person and therefore never gave them the chance to make a informed choice about their part in a relationship.....

its the same issue with bisexuals that enter into a relationship that becomes long term, then disclose their bisexual nature and their desires for extra sexual activities..... the partner can end up feeling betrayed, deceived and lied to

yet we enter relationships believing and trust that our partners are open and honest with us and not withholding any information that may affect the relationship adversely...

its a dual edged sword..... disclose info that could cost the relationship... or decieve our partners.......

[TaylorMade]

Very honest reaction Taylor, thank you.

I am curious whether when you say, "I am not interested in dating trans people", you mean "I would prefer not to date transpeople," or if you mean it like you might mean "I am not interested in dating Jewish people". You would never seek them out, but fine if you wound up with one.

I can't imagine people seeking us out. But I also can't see why a person would specifically avoid us.

I really like your honesty in the line "the relationship would change". That's what I was getting at with LDD and Cat. I wouldn't want it to change, but it certainly would, even if there was no hostility. The relationship would have been at its most authentic before that change.

So I feel like I'm in a Catch-22 with respect to "be honest and be yourself". If I'm honest, then I'm no longer myself, and if I'm myself, I'm being dishonest.

Or am I?

I wouldn't seek to date one. I'm not sure what would happen if it came out that the guy or girl I was dating was one. It would definitely be case by case.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

Very honest reaction Taylor, thank you.

I am curious whether when you say, "I am not interested in dating trans people", you mean "I would prefer not to date transpeople," or if you mean it like you might mean "I am not interested in dating Jewish people". You would never seek them out, but fine if you wound up with one.

I can't imagine people seeking us out. But I also can't see why a person would specifically avoid us.

I really like your honesty in the line "the relationship would change". That's what I was getting at with LDD and Cat. I wouldn't want it to change, but it certainly would, even if there was no hostility. The relationship would have been at its most authentic before that change.

So I feel like I'm in a Catch-22 with respect to "be honest and be yourself". If I'm honest, then I'm no longer myself, and if I'm myself, I'm being dishonest.

Or am I?



THis makes sense to me.

In some ways I will always be a woman with a transsexual past, however I do not wish to be a "transsexual woman" for the rest of my life. At some point I hope to be simply "woman". Maybe its foolish for me to want that?

[Kiowa_Pacer]

Miss Marie;

I know you dont know me, but from what I hear, you shall always be a Lady in every sense of the word.

Ki and Kit

[Pasadenacpl2]

I have mixed feelings.

On the one hand, I support the T in LGBT fully and want equal rights for all.

On the other hand, if I found out later that the person I had been sleeping with was other than they claimed/showed/expressed I would be upset. I feel that if I am sleeping with someone, I am owed information to allow me to make an informed decision.

I would not be upset that the person was trans. I would be upset that I wasn't given the info, that I was lied to (even if by omission). This is in keeping with my feelings on bisexuality in general. I believe my wife had the right to know so she could make an informed decision as to whether to stay with me or not.

I don't think this is expecting too much, and has far more to do with relationships than it does one's gender.

Pasa

[transcendMental]

On the other hand, if I found out later that the person I had been sleeping with was other than they claimed/showed/expressed I would be upset.

In what way would the person be "other than they claimed/showed/expressed"? Maybe they once had been. But they no longer are.

Would you feel the same if you discovered that the person you had been sleeping with had once had breast reduction surgery? Breast enhancement surgery? A hysteretomy? Why, to you, is this different?

[transcendMental]

nods and hugs.......

the issue in my eyes, is not how you see yourself...... but any issues that can arise in the relationship that are unforeseen...... such as your past coming up..... and your partner is suddenly * hang on a sec, what the hell is going here "

as another trans person posted in another thread, they went for a job interview, and as a male, they had a long work history, as a female, they didn't....and having to disclose that fact may have cost them the job.... not cos they are trans, but you have one person submitting a resume under two different names, one male and one female......yet saying they are the same person

that is a aspect that can surface in a relationship..... your past.... and if your partner is not aware or prepared for that aspect, yes they can react......unfortunately that is what can lead to attacks on trans people..... as people may feel that while you are a lady.... you deliberately hid the fact that you have a different past and things were different and that you withhold that info from the person and therefore never gave them the chance to make a informed choice about their part in a relationship.....

its the same issue with bisexuals that enter into a relationship that becomes long term, then disclose their bisexual nature and their desires for extra sexual activities..... the partner can end up feeling betrayed, deceived and lied to

yet we enter relationships believing and trust that our partners are open and honest with us and not withholding any information that may affect the relationship adversely...

its a dual edged sword..... disclose info that could cost the relationship... or decieve our partners.......

I completely understand a first reaction of "hey, what's going on here?" and a feeling or at least a worry of betrayal or deceit. (I also get the physical danger of such an emotional reaction in some people, but that's a separate issue.)

To me, the question is what the person thinks on second thought. If they find out that the reason they weren't told is that the person doesn't think much about their past any more, and they don't think of it as important, can they handle that? Or does the fact that a person's body used to have male bits honestly mean all that much to them?

I have discovered since transitioning (not even since surgery, but just since social transition) that any more when I think of myself in the past, I see the past me as a female-bodied person. Bizarre, but true. I can easily see a point in the future where I'll cease to think of a male past. I'll just be me, and have always been me. Cause I have always been me, and I am female. If I do ever get there, I think it's unreasonable to expect me to take steps to hold on to that memory like a boulder I'm not allowed to put down, just because it might offend a future lover.

tm

[Long Duck Dong]

In what way would the person be "other than they claimed/showed/expressed"? Maybe they once had been. But they no longer are.

Would you feel the same if you discovered that the person you had been sleeping with had once had breast reduction surgery? Breast enhancement surgery? A hysteretomy? Why, to you, is this different?

it could be cos that person doesn't have a former life as another * person *

there are legal and profession issues that can not simply be ignored or go away cos of transistion......

its like me, I have a criminal past, something that hangs over my head... yet when dealing with official forms etc... I have to declare my criminal past.... yet I have been clean for a good number of years......
I can not just say, I am clean therefore my partner has no need or right to know..... as it will surface at some stage..... and immediately they will ask questions......and have concerns for their safety and wellbeing...... and I am clean, i do not want to be seen as a criminal.....

now a trans person is the same... they have a past that can surface and if your partner finds out and asks questions, how are you going to deal with it...???

a cisgender person generally doesn't have a past as another gender and name and identity...... so breast enhancement, hysterectomy etc.... are issues that will come up..... but they are not really on the same level as a secret past life.....

I have the stance of tell your partner.... that way you are safer and protected, they know you have a past, yet they are with the woman they love
there are things that people can see beyond.... but some things like a past are not that easy to dismiss......

[MissyMissy]

where i am really from it can be dangerous to come out and play.
not immoral.

[void()]

Void mauls it over a spell.

"Is it unethical for a transgender person not to out themselves on the first date?

Does it matter if they are pre or post op?"

1. No. I don't think so. After all when you first meet folks you build relationships gradually. Some things are just meant as private until a person feels comfortable revealing them. If they don't it could be better, too.

2. No. A person is a person. If a lady is trapped in a guy's body, she's still a lady. She's just going to get the body. And vise versa for the other direction.

Still boils down to a person being a person. Why the fuck does our world have to make it so difficult? ( Void shaking his noggin and sighing. )

Probably created a holy war with that response. Ask me if I care. I was just honest and authentic. If that doesn't suit you, go lump it. :rotate: :cutelaugh Have a nice day and run 'er slow.

"some things like a past are not that easy to dismiss"

Past is past. As in it happened prior to now. Sorry, many folks out here choose living in an eternal Now. We can get by the past real easily. We don't judge or grudge. Live and let live. Harder than it looks but worth it in the long run.

Example: Last night I started a new job. Even the supervisor of the crew went up into the break room, say and played dominoes for a few hours. They had all gotten caught up in their work, killing time. At first it made me angry, made me fuss about injustice. But you know what? I got 45 minutes instead of 30 for lunch. The supervisor told me if there wasn't much work that was okay, but if asked I only took 30.

The guy training me also stood around half the night flapping his jaws, repeating the same crap every five minutes. He's even got his own catch phrase, "y'know what I mean?" I could have possibly had the work done in half the time. But he's 'showing me' how it's to be done.

What I gather is the company isn't too strict about how you do the work, so long as it's getting done.

But past is past. Tonight will be better. I'll tune out, 'y'know what I mean?" And then, do what I can do and do it the best I can. That's all that is asked in order to get a paycheck and go home.

You just live and let live. Simple to say, not always simple to do. But you sort of have to in order to stay okay.

[OmegaGray]

I wish I was lucky enough to find a beautiful woman, regardless of past or op-status, who understood the complexity of what I was feeling and who I could care about unconditionally. You women out there, regardless of the past, are brave and beautiful. I envy you, even if every one of you told me there was nothing to envy, and I'll be your steadfast supporter in all ways I can. <3

[Delilah]

Sorry for belated respond. I'm just now catching up with all the topics.

Being a non op TS, I only date men who already know. I will not persue or accept any kinds of date with men who doesn't know about me. Now in the real world, I do stay stealth. I live my life as a woman daily 24/7, and prefer the public not knowing. So, I just decline dates when offered. I can't say, "I would love to. But to let you know up front, I'm a transgender." Then everyone will know. So forget it. I'll just find dates in the cyber world. Less hassel, and no need to explain. LOL

There, that's my three cents :tongue:

[sephirothtx]

that reasearcher is a bunch of bollocks, im not british but that word was nicer than any american english word i was going to use!

what a ...

grr

i have transexual friends, most that don't "out" on first dates are, well afraid, especially here in the states.

Its not that transexuals are immoral, is that the whole morality code of the United States of America is so screwed up our symbol would be best summed up by a half melted flag tied into knotes

phew... excuse that little rant :D

i mean, to you who are bisexual ,we've been through it ourself, especially in straight relationships, where we are sometimes SCARED to come out to a straight date or partner for a long while that we are bisexual

its the same thigns with trans, the moral codes of america and much the world makes transexualism sooooo "immoral", sometimes viewed as the lowest of the lows, they have to worry first and formost if their date will even care, if he will care how much, what if he's a religious fanatic thats going to start outing them at ever event where people think their the sex they look, ect ect.

Itll unf be like this untill we get over all of this one day and grow up.

a great example is this guy i met online, two years younge rthan me, really cute, we hit it off pretty well, but as soon as it came up i was bisexual instead of just gay he started acting funny and backed off.